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Luke goes back in time to save his father. Before Mace can get to the emperor Anakin and Luke confront the emperor.

Battle takes place where Sidious fought Mace.

Sabers
All out
Who wins?

Sidious. Luke was lucky to survive the Emperor and Anakin got beat by Kenobi who Yoda clearly states is no match for the Emperor. Plus this is a guy who took three of the best fighters in the Jedi order down in the blink of an eye.

Originally posted by relentless1
Sidious. Luke was lucky to survive the Emperor and Anakin got beat by Kenobi who Yoda clearly states is no match for the Emperor. Plus this is a guy who took three of the best fighters in the Jedi order down in the blink of an eye. Luke was not armed when the emperor started attacking him.

Sidious killed weak Jedi. Hell, savage Opress lasted longer than these mooks.

Is this Anakin as of his fight with Dooku or during his battle with Obi Wan?

No matter what Sidious takes force and all out, but if this is the Anakin that took on Dooku then team might take sabers. If it's the one who took on Obi Wan then Sidious takes sabers.

Originally posted by relentless1
Sidious. Luke was lucky to survive the Emperor and Anakin got beat by Kenobi who Yoda clearly states is no match for the Emperor. Plus this is a guy who took three of the best fighters in the Jedi order down in the blink of an eye.

Can't use him being beaten by Obi wan due to him being hindered and his rage was blinding him instead of like his fight with Dooku he used it to focus him. Also Obi wan knows his style inside and out and he is purely defensive.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Luke was not armed when the emperor started attacking him.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Can't use him being beaten by Obi wan due to him being hindered and his rage was blinding him instead of like his fight with Dooku he used it to focus him. Also Obi wan knows his style inside and out and he is purely defensive. His rage was not hampering him his overconfidence cost him. He wasn't raging when he ran into Dooku fl.

Originally posted by quanchi112
His rage was not hampering him his overconfidence cost him. He wasn't raging when he ran into Dooku fl.

And look what happened his rage blinded him to what he should have done and he got a face full of lightning for his mistake.

We see improvement with his three years of war and he kills the count.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
And look what happened his rage blinded him to what he should have done and he got a face full of lightning for his mistake.

We see improvement with his three years of war and he kills the count. He was overconfident that's all.

Yes, we see he had the skill but he didn't overcome his overconfidence since Kenobi beat him.

I'm right you're wrong. Same old stuff from last year.

This is definitely not an easy battle for Sidious. Luke and Anakin are more powerful than any the Jedi that came with Mace to attack Sidious.

Truthfully that are not in the even in the same tier. As for the battle with Obi Wan that is not an good example to use for the following reasons:
Anakin and Vader were not the same type of fighters
Anakin was no where the same fighter that Dooku had fought because he was emotionally conflicted and was not even slightly trained as a Sith. He still had a blue saber. Obi Wan barely won and that was due to the environment that gave him room to escape.

Luke was backing up a overpowering a Vader that was in a armored suit.

Sidious will have to use the force. The longer the fight goes the more the advantage will go to Luke and Anakin.

Originally posted by Kotor3
This is definitely not an easy battle for Sidious. Luke and Anakin are more powerful than any the Jedi that came with Mace to attack Sidious.
.

no way, Luke wasn't a seasoned vet like those guy were with saber fights, he basically learned the basics over 2 years maximum while those masters had been training since birth. No comparison here. Even if Luke had his lightsaber he most likely wouldn't know how to use it to block FL.

Originally posted by relentless1
Even if Luke had his lightsaber he most likely wouldn't know how to use it to block FL.

He blocked Joruus C'baoth's FL just fine in the EU.

Besides, attacking first would've sufficed. Took Palpatine a good moment to fire FL.

Originally posted by relentless1
no way, Luke wasn't a seasoned vet like those guy were with saber fights, he basically learned the basics over 2 years maximum while those masters had been training since birth. No comparison here. Even if Luke had his lightsaber he most likely wouldn't know how to use it to block FL.



But Yoda said Luke completed his training.. Vader also said "your skills are now complete"

Well, technically, he had one more thing to do in order to become a Jedi Knight: beating Vader. Which he did.

Blaster bolts deflection, Jedi mind trick, senses, telekinesis, even Force grip... a significant improvement over TESB.

Pfft... Rey could learn half those things over night

Rey, like all girls, can't play without cheat codes.

Hold Shift and ~.

Type helpusobi 1, then setForceAll 5.

There you go, Grand Master Rey ready to school Luke and Snoke at the same time and train new generations of Jedi Knights biscuits

Probably Sids in most cases. If this is peak peak Anakin and Luke then they could win. By peak I don't mean NJO Luke, who would wtf stomp sids solo

EU stuff doesnt count

Originally posted by relentless1
EU stuff doesnt count

And?

AotC Kenobi did it out of all people...

Here's the painful truth: in the movies, Palpatine's lightning works only when he cheapshots people with it.

Sidious.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
And?

AotC Kenobi did it out of all people...

Here's the painful truth: in the movies, Palpatine's lightning works only when he cheapshots people with it.

he knocked Yodas lightsaber out of his hand, how is Luke supposed to defend against something he knows nothing about? Kenobi knows about Force lightning the guys been a Jedi since birth so I'm sure that scenario has come up in training or something. Yoda may have said Lukes training was complete but I believe he meant in the sense of a electrician completing the basics course, dude still had a ways to go before he would become a master.

Originally posted by relentless1
he knocked Yodas lightsaber out of his hand, how is Luke supposed to defend against something he knows nothing about? Kenobi knows about Force lightning the guys been a Jedi since birth so I'm sure that scenario has come up in training or something. Yoda may have said Lukes training was complete but I believe he meant in the sense of a electrician completing the basics course, dude still had a ways to go before he would become a master.

Heh. Canonically, Kenobi knew nothing about FL either

Yoda has only 3 fingers. Mace blocked Sheev's lightning just fine...

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Heh. Canonically, Kenobi knew nothing about FL either

Yoda has only 3 thingers. Mace blocked Sheev's lightning just fine...

thats why i said "probably" with Kenobi. Fact is, we can clearly see that the Jedi in the PT have much more knowledge and training than Luke did, its an established fact that Lukes 2 years of training <<<<<<<<<<<<< Jedi training since birth.

When you have great talent, 2 years can suffice.

Lucas considered Luke to be the most powerful Force user in the series.

Originally posted by relentless1
no way, Luke wasn't a seasoned vet like those guy were with saber fights, he basically learned the basics over 2 years maximum while those masters had been training since birth. No comparison here. Even if Luke had his lightsaber he most likely wouldn't know how to use it to block FL. What does seasoned have to do with anything in the star wars universe? Look at Yoda vs Sidious, Rey verus Kylo, Luke vs Vader, Obi wan vs Maul.

The highest form of canon the movies, clearly shows that Luke had reach a point where he was able to face Vader head on. Yoda and Vader both confirm this where they state his skills are complete and no more training needed. Obi Wan also sends Luke to face Vader reconfirming that Luke is ready. Note Obi Wan expected Luke to kill Vader.

What is also of note is that Yoda was shock that Vader revealed that he was Luke's father showing that in combat it is Yoda's expectation that Vader would come at Luke with full force yet he sends Luke to face Vader. Since Luke could see both Obi Wan and Yoda as force ghost and communicate with them it is clear that Yoda and Obi wan could have continue to train Luke if they felt it was necessary.

No matter what contradictions may be out there, Yoda and Vader statements have never been taken out of the movies or changed. Neither has the fact that they sent Luke to face Vader.

There is no one who accompany Mace to face Sidious besides Mace himself that could face Vader one on one and have chance to win.

So by feats and statements alone Luke is clearly above those seasoned Jedi who were taken out so quickly by Sidious.

I think Fisto would acquit himself very well against vader in a pure saber fight.

as Kurupt so likes to make use of, George Lucas himself stated that " all we see in the OT is an old man, a half man and not fully trained Luke, now we finally get to see the Jedi in their prime" or something to that effect in Phantom Menace commentary so even he believes that the Jedi from this era are naturally superior to anybody in the OT

Originally posted by relentless1
as Kurupt so likes to make use of, George Lucas himself stated that " all we see in the OT is an old man, a half man and not fully trained Luke, now we finally get to see the Jedi in their prime" or something to that effect in Phantom Menace commentary so even he believes that the Jedi from this era are naturally superior to anybody in the OT Kt is a biased poster very similar to a superman fanatic picking and choosing when to apply George Lucas' thoughts.

Originally posted by relentless1
as Kurupt so likes to make use of, George Lucas himself stated that " all we see in the OT is an old man, a half man and not fully trained Luke, now we finally get to see the Jedi in their prime" or something to that effect in Phantom Menace commentary so even he believes that the Jedi from this era are naturally superior to anybody in the OT The sith were thought to have been gone forever and there were many Jedi and an era of peace. The PT being the prime for Jedi makes sense. However, this does not excuse what was written and displayed for Luke.

What you are doing is like reading a book and clearly seeing the written words but then after listening to what the author felt he should have displayed as well as other critics, accepting their statements as the gospel.

Unless they change what was written in the movie script it is what it is.

@Kurupt: As for Fisto being able to go up against Vader in a saber battle, ok but how long would he last? Savage lasted longer against Sidious with less help than Fisto but Fisto can perform well against Vader in a saber battle. I don't agree at all. The battle would be very short from my perspective from what has been shown from the characters on screen.

Also for all the talk about Vader being old and half machine, well what was general grievous? He was a cyborg just like Vader and you wouldn't call him slow.

As for old, well so was Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, and Mace. Some of the most powerful force users ever to live as well skilled combatants. So I fail to see the weakness in Vader being old and a cyborg. Especially when he is one of the most powerful force users to ever live as well as skilled combatant.

Once again statements that clearly contradict was is displayed on film the highest form of canon should be dismissed.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I think Fisto would acquit himself very well against vader in a pure saber fight.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Also for all the talk about Vader being old and half machine, well what was general grievous? He was a cyborg just like Vader and you wouldn't call him slow.

As for old, well so was Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, and Mace. Some of the most powerful force users ever to live as well skilled combatants. So I fail to see the weakness in Vader being old and a cyborg. Especially when he is one of the most powerful force users to ever live as well as skilled combatant.

Once again statements that clearly contradict was is displayed on film the highest form of canon should be dismissed.

well the true fact of the matter is that special effects were shit back when the OT was out

Originally posted by Kotor3
The sith were thought to have been gone forever and there were many Jedi and an era of peace. The PT being the prime for Jedi makes sense. However, this does not excuse what was written and displayed for Luke.

What you are doing is like reading a book and clearly seeing the written words but then after listening to what the author felt he should have displayed as well as other critics, accepting their statements as the gospel.

Unless they change what was written in the movie script it is what it is.

@Kurupt: As for Fisto being able to go up against Vader in a saber battle, ok but how long would he last? Savage lasted longer against Sidious with less help than Fisto but Fisto can perform well against Vader in a saber battle. I don't agree at all. The battle would be very short from my perspective from what has been shown from the characters on screen.

Just watch the clone wars for Fisto's feats. He does very well against The General, in fact, some say better than Kenobi. He also does very well against Ventress... Somebody both Anakin and Kenobi have struggled with at times (while other times they haven't). Point is, he has very few "movie only feats", but since the clone wars count on this forum, he has plenty of those. Yes, in a pure saber only duel, I see him doing well against Vader and lasting a good while. Maybe not winning, but he certainly wouldn't get rolled.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Also for all the talk about Vader being old and half machine, well what was general grievous? He was a cyborg just like Vader and you wouldn't call him slow.

As for old, well so was Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, and Mace. Some of the most powerful force users ever to live as well skilled combatants. So I fail to see the weakness in Vader being old and a cyborg. Especially when he is one of the most powerful force users to ever live as well as skilled combatant.

Once again statements that clearly contradict was is displayed on film the highest form of canon should be dismissed.

The clear differences are as follows

1. Vader, and specified by Lucas, lost vast amounts of the force when his limbs were chopped off. His counts went from the most ever seen, to below that. So it wasn't just that he was vastly slower now, he also didn't have as much potential and force running through him

2. Mace, Yoda and Dooku, while older, didn't have a body cast of metal wrapped around them. They were still able to use the force to boost their speed and movement, even while old. Vader couldn't do the same because he had a permanent metal body cast on him

3. The general isn't nearly the same. He had arms that could make lightsabers swing around like a yo-yo. In fact, he was said to be able to deliver ____ strikes per second. It was a ridiculous number that alludes me right now. His speed was beyond Vaders.

@KuRuPT I will respond to you in a few hours.

Originally posted by relentless1
well the true fact of the matter is that special effects were shit back when the OT was out Compared to today yes they are. One thing I will say that when they fought in the OT it always felt like real knights fighting. Skill and a lot of power.

The PT movies they didn't seem like Jedi knights but Jedi ninjas. Only a few fights felt like the force was actually being used during the clash of the sabers.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Just watch the clone wars for Fisto's feats. He does very well against The General, in fact, some say better than Kenobi. He also does very well against Ventress... Somebody both Anakin and Kenobi have struggled with at times (while other times they haven't). Point is, he has very few "movie only feats", but since the clone wars count on this forum, he has plenty of those. Yes, in a pure saber only duel, I see him doing well against Vader and lasting a good while. Maybe not winning, but he certainly wouldn't get rolled. I am aware of a lot of feats for Fisto from Clone wars. Simply put as of ROTS Obi Wan made took down the General is a saber battle quite easily and quickly. Anakin took down the General teacher in ROTS quite easily and quickly.

While Fisto is powerful and skilled as of ROTS he is not on the level of Anakin or Obi Wan. So I am still not seeing how a more powerful version of Anakin, Vader, Fisto will do well against in a saber battle.

You seem to be under the assumption that Vader lack skill and speed because he was a cyborg. There is nothing in the movies that indicates this. Instead Vader as of ANH states that his power have not only increase but he is at his prime and has mastered his powers. (This would include his skill with a saber and ability to exercise his potential in the force in all areas that would enhance his ability as a fighter).

So, I still do not see how Fisto would last any length of time against Vader.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The clear differences are as follows

1. Vader, and specified by Lucas, lost vast amounts of the force when his limbs were chopped off. His counts went from the most ever seen, to below that. So it wasn't just that he was vastly slower now, he also didn't have as much potential and force running through him

2. Mace, Yoda and Dooku, while older, didn't have a body cast of metal wrapped around them. They were still able to use the force to boost their speed and movement, even while old. Vader couldn't do the same because he had a permanent metal body cast on him

3. The general isn't nearly the same. He had arms that could make lightsabers swing around like a yo-yo. In fact, he was said to be able to deliver ____ strikes per second. It was a ridiculous number that alludes me right now. His speed was beyond Vaders. Losing part of his force potential prevented him from surpassing Sidious who also had grown in power by the OT time. It did not mean that Vader was lower than Anakin. As state previously, ANH clearly confirms that Vader had grown in power and master his Sith abilities as well as the potential in the force that he did have available to him which was vastly more than Fisto. Wasn't Vader confirmed to be 80% of Sidious as of ROTJ?

Please show me a quote or something that states Vader could not move fast or was slower than Anakin. Obi Wan couldn't beat him in ANH and Luke was able to out speed Vader just over power him.

Please provide proof that Vader could not increase his speed or power like Yoda, Dooku, Mace, or anyone with a non-cyborg body.

The General could move fast yes he could his cyborg body was made to do so. So this would logically bring to mind the it would be ridiculous for Vader to receive a cyborg body that would hinder him. Also the fact that Vader had the force which the General did not have.

I think you are using a lot of assumptions. The fact that Obi Wan and Luke were not able to boost their speed pass Vader is proof enough that Vader was not slow or slower then he was as Anakin.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Kt is a biased poster very similar to a superman fanatic picking and choosing when to apply George Lucas' thoughts.
""ABHI""?

Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
""ABHI""? Yes, he is very abhi like.