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Physical form Sauron with his ring and mace vs Night King and his ice weapons. Who wins ?

?

Sauron wins handily.

Originally posted by playa1258
Sauron wins handily. Quit lusting over my Sauron sig you perv.

Odin wins...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Odin wins... Off topic envy but please stick to the topic.

Isn't Sauron some sort of big deal celestial being. Can create stars and such?

All I ever saw him do is get cut down by a guy with a sword, but for some reason LOTR characters like Sauron and Gandalf get talked up like they're Galactus..

Originally posted by cdtm
Isn't Sauron some sort of big deal celestial being. Can create stars and such?

All I ever saw him do is get cut down by a guy with a sword, but for some reason LOTR characters like Sauron and Gandalf get talked up like they're Galactus.. This is the film version leave all the book hyperbole out of this. It's the nerds who worship the books who exaggerate the hyperbole. This is why it's foolish to debate the books and its best to stick to the films version.

Originally posted by cdtm
Isn't Sauron some sort of big deal celestial being. Can create stars and such?

All I ever saw him do is get cut down by a guy with a sword, but for some reason LOTR characters like Sauron and Gandalf get talked up like they're Galactus.. No, Sauron's master Melkor is the big deal celestial being (and even then none of his feats are quite that amazing). Sauron is a smaller deal celestial being. Melkor is like a god or archangel, Sauron (along with Gandalf, Saruman, and others) are more akin to normal angels, with Sauron according to most accounts being the most powerful.

That's only novels though. In films Sauron is a far more limited character, though he still has more going for him feat-wise than the Night King, whose only combat feat is his being the greatest javelin tosser in history. Though that feat alone does seem to imply a level of physical strength beyond any LotR character.

One shotting a dragon is one helluva feat with more to come in the final season. And who said greater physical strength it just shows how powerful the toss and weapon are by the Night King.

Someone calculated the Night King made that toss over a mile.

We still don't know how powerful he really is.

Originally posted by playa1258
Someone calculated the Night King made that toss over a mile.

We still don't know how powerful he really is. What do you mean ? We still know he's very powerful. Killing a dragon is a big deal.

We know he can raise the dead, we know he is super strong, has visions like Bran and has a laser rocket arm.

We don't know the compete extent of what he can do yet.

Originally posted by playa1258
We know he can raise the dead, we know he is super strong, has visions like Bran and has a laser rocket arm.

We don't know the compete extent of what he can do yet. No shit but we may never know. We don't get to see that much from Sauron either. After the final season we will know but that may be two years off. We know enough to create a thread.

night King wins.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
night King wins. Based on ?

Originally posted by NemeBro
No, Sauron's master Melkor is the big deal celestial being (and even then none of his feats are quite that amazing). Sauron is a smaller deal celestial being. Melkor is like a god or archangel, Sauron (along with Gandalf, Saruman, and others) are more akin to normal angels, with Sauron according to most accounts being the most powerful.

That's only novels though. In films Sauron is a far more limited character, though he still has more going for him feat-wise than the Night King, whose only combat feat is his being the greatest javelin tosser in history. Though that feat alone does seem to imply a level of physical strength beyond any LotR character.


Night king wins. His ability to raise the dead gives him a HUGE advantage. Every dead Orc is a dead Orc to his army.

Him Bringing Winter is also bad for Sauron.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Night king wins. His ability to raise the dead gives him a HUGE advantage. Every dead Orc is a dead Orc to his army.

Him Bringing Winter is also bad for Sauron. This is just one on one. There is another thread in which you are referring. Please respond there and tell me what you think of these two antagonists and your opinion of this one on one confrontation.

Originally posted by quanchi112
This is just one on one. There is another thread in which you are referring. Please respond there and tell me what you think of these two antagonists and your opinion of this one on one confrontation.

Ohh i see! Sorry.

Well either way. Remember that the White Walkers can only be killed with Valyrian steel or Dragon glass...If Sauron doesnt know this then he has no way to win.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Ohh i see! Sorry.

Well either way. Remember that the White Walkers can only be killed with Valyrian steel or Dragon glass...If Sauron doesnt know this then he has no way to win. We have to both be open to other beings being able to affect the others depose not existing in their universe. I believe Suaron and his power can definitely kill the Night King and vice versa. If we don't believe they can affect each other at all then there's no point to the thread. I honestly believe both abe demonstrated enough power to destroy the other provided the opening.

Originally posted by quanchi112
We have to both be open to other beings being able to affect the others depose not existing in their universe. I believe Suaron and his power can definitely kill the Night King and vice versa. If we don't believe they can affect each other at all then there's no point to the thread. I honestly believe both abe demonstrated enough power to destroy the other provided the opening.

No csuse it is how you make the thread. If you put no prep time there is no way they can know how to defeat the other. In that case Night King has the upper hand.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No csuse it is how you make the thread. If you put no prep time there is no way they can know how to defeat the other. In that case Night King has the upper hand. If Sauron hits him with his mace it's going to hurt him/possibly/most likely kill him. Look at the power behind his swings and the ring obviously being involved with the power display. At this point we have seen no invulnerability by the Night King thus far in combat especially against someone with such raw powerful magic at his disposal and that mace.

Here is Sauron in his physical form for those who do not remember, you can see how strong he is:

sX5ff7W7IQQ

Sauron shows up about 2 minutes in.

Originally posted by quanchi112
If Sauron hits him with his mace it's going to hurt him/possibly/most likely kill him. Look at the power behind his swings and the ring obviously being involved with the power display. At this point we have seen no invulnerability by the Night King thus far in combat especially against someone with such raw powerful magic at his disposal and that mace.

Originally posted by Surtur
Here is Sauron in his physical form for those who do not remember, you can see how strong he is:

sX5ff7W7IQQ

Sauron shows up about 2 minutes in.

Doesnt matter.

The WWs swords are so cold any other metal other than Valyrian stell would shatter. That Mace and Armor of Sauron are Useless. Unless Sauron knows this and how to make Valyrian steel he will be doomed.

Night King Wins

Well I do not watch GoT so I have no idea what this Night King can do, I was just showing what Sauron can do.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Doesnt matter.

The WWs swords are so cold any other metal other than Valyrian stell would shatter. That Mace and Armor of Sauron are Useless. Unless Sauron knows this and how to make Valyrian steel he will be doomed. Speculation. That may be true of other materials from Westeros but that doesn't include Sauron or his magical ring and badass mace. It's like saying night King can't do shit to the ring unless he casts it into Mordor. Plot devices are only pertaining to their native universe not all other fictional universes.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Speculation. That may be true of other materials from Westeros but that doesn't include Sauron or his magical ring and badass mace. It's like saying night King can't do shit to the ring unless he casts it into Mordor. Plot devices are only pertaining to their native universe not all other fictional universes.

Originally posted by Surtur
Well I do not watch GoT so I have no idea what this Night King can do, I was just showing what Sauron can do.

The White Walkers have swords so cold that can shatter any metal. Saurons mace and Armor would shatter to the Night King's sword...Unless Sauron knows about Valyrian still he is doom to become a walking dead! Hahaha

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
The White Walkers have swords so cold that can shatter any metal. Saurons mace and Armor would shatter to the Night King's sword...Unless Sauron knows about Valyrian still he is doom to become a walking dead! Hahaha Shatter any metal seen in Westoros save Valyrian, etc. that doesn't mean it can shatter a made empowered by the one ring since it doesn't exist in Westoros. The mace wielded by Sauron has more impressive feats than any sword shown affecting the White Walkers.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Shatter any metal seen in Westoros save Valyrian, etc. that doesn't mean it can shatter a made empowered by the one ring since it doesn't exist in Westoros. The mace wielded by Sauron has more impressive feats than any sword shown affecting the White Walkers.

You are assuiming that. It can be consider any metal except Valyrian. ANY! There is no evidence to say that Saurons metal is harder than GOT Steel.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
You are assuiming that. It can be consider any metal except Valyrian. ANY! There is no evidence to say that Saurons metal is harder than GOT Steel. Except his feat is far superior to any valerian sword used in combat or dragon glass. Did you watch the clip ? He sent back multiple foes back twenty or so feet while they were heavily armored. GoT would shit its collective pants if they saw Sauron swing his mace. I do not foresee the Night King to be actively scared but again I also don't see him being able to withstand the power from the swing of his mace.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Except his feat is far superior to any valerian sword used in combat or dragon glass. Did you watch the clip ? He sent back multiple foes back twenty or so feet while they were heavily armored. GoT would shit its collective pants if they saw Sauron swing his mace. I do not foresee the Night King to be actively scared but again I also don't see him being able to withstand the power from the swing of his mace.

He covers himself with the Sword and that mace shatters.

Valyrian steel isnt just strong. It is enchanted. It is the Enchantment that prevents it from breaking. Sauron doesnt have Valyrian steel = Losing side.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
He covers himself with the Sword and that mace shatters.

Valyrian steel isnt just strong. It is enchanted. It is the Enchantment that prevents it from breaking. Sauron doesnt have Valyrian steel = Losing side. We know the ring is magical and is enchanted.

It is seen amping his attacks. Sauron is a magical being. We see many swords enchanted in the Lotr side as well. This ain't special. It may be special to GoT but not in the Lotr universe and you're up against the grandest and most powerful magic user Sauron. Prepare yourself Night King because you haven't dealt with anyone like this before.

Unless you specifically state otherwise a weapon/characters strengths and weaknesses have to be considered in the vs thread. Having said that a case could be made that LotR magic =/= GoT magic because who really knows how one enchanted item will work on another.

Make a specific ruling in the OP next time that'll save some time

Originally posted by relentless1
Unless you specifically state otherwise a weapon/characters strengths and weaknesses have to be considered in the vs thread. Having said that a case could be made that LotR magic =/= GoT magic because who really knows how one enchanted item will work on another.

Make a specific ruling in the OP next time that'll save some time No, I do not have to ever say anything regarding the plot devices of one universe vs another. It's an aspect of the debate but it's silly to act like one plot device has anything to do with another. Both sides need to be reasonable and accept the validity of the power of both universe's magical power.

Hmm, I'd say Sauron. We know the dude is a powerful sorcerer, a Maiar, a powerful fighter (Even though he hates sullying his hands personally) and because of his Ainur status has a small part of the Flame Imperishable in him. Also, while we know the White's swords shatter ordinary steel on contact, we do not know if it does the same to encorcelled blades crafted in the forges of Barad-Dur. Sauron's mace, sword and armor were made by him. Considering what we saw the mace do, it's not standard castle forged steel. The fact is, we do not know what sort of interaction Saurons power will have on a Walker, or Vice Versa. To simply assume that it would shatter like common steel is asenine.

Oh, and welcome back Quan.

Josh ?? Have you abandoned your quest ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
We know the ring is magical and is enchanted.

It is seen amping his attacks. Sauron is a magical being. We see many swords enchanted in the Lotr side as well. This ain't special. It may be special to GoT but not in the Lotr universe and you're up against the grandest and most powerful magic user Sauron. Prepare yourself Night King because you haven't dealt with anyone like this before.

No. The fact that it is enchanted doesnt mean it will stop the Ice Sword.

It has different enchantments as Valyrian steel does. Enchantments dont work for everything. There are specific enchantments and different type of Enchantments.

Its very likely that the Mace will Shatter. White Walkers Sword will shatter anything for exception of Valyrian steel and dragon glass. Assuming Sauron doesnt know this...he is soon to become a dead walkig Sauron for the Army of the Dead.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Josh ?? Have you abandoned your quest ?

No. Hahaha.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Hmm, I'd say Sauron. We know the dude is a powerful sorcerer, a Maiar, a powerful fighter (Even though he hates sullying his hands personally) and because of his Ainur status has a small part of the Flame Imperishable in him. Also, while we know the White's swords shatter ordinary steel on contact, we do not know if it does the same to encorcelled blades crafted in the forges of Barad-Dur. Sauron's mace, sword and armor were made by him. Considering what we saw the mace do, it's not standard castle forged steel. The fact is, we do not know what sort of interaction Saurons power will have on a Walker, or Vice Versa. To simply assume that it would shatter like common steel is asenine.

Oh, and welcome back Quan.

You are speculating that.

Royman Royce sword wasnt made of normal steel...no Knights sword is. Yet it shattered.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No. The fact that it is enchanted doesnt mean it will stop the Ice Sword.

It also doesn't mean it will shatter. Has it destroyed any enchanted swords ? If you look at the power behind the mace in Sauron's grasp it makes Valyrian look impotent by comparison.
You keep repeating yourself because you're in a corner trying to support a plot device. Sauron's mace doesn't exist in Westeros so the plot device only applies to the materials in that specific world not Middle Earth.

If you compare Sauron and the force behind him swinging the mace compared to Valyrian steel we can see which of the two is a lot more impressive.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It also doesn't mean it will shatter. Has it destroyed any enchanted swords ? If you look at the power behind the mace in Sauron's grasp it makes Valyrian look impotent by comparison.
You keep repeating yourself because you're in a corner trying to support a plot device. Sauron's mace doesn't exist in Westeros so the plot device only applies to the materials in that specific world not Middle Earth.

If you compare Sauron and the force behind him swinging the mace compared to Valyrian steel we can see which of the two is a lot more impressive.

Not the same enchantments. And Valyrian swords are no ordinary thing. They were made by Valyrian Sorcerors 8000 years ago. Dobt see why Sauron's Mace is more impressive than that.

Surely LoTR has never seen an Ice Sword before.

You are corner by the fact that the Mighty Sauron's mace will shatter like crystal when met by the Night Kings Sword! Sauron will become a dead Sauron.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Not the same enchantments. And Valyrian swords are no ordinary thing. They were made by Valyrian Sorcerors 8000 years ago. Dobt see why Sauron's Mace is more impressive than that.

Surely LoTR has never seen an Ice Sword before.

You are corner by the fact that the Mighty Sauron's mace will shatter like crystal when met by the Night Kings Sword! Sauron will become a dead Sauron. Nothing the swords have done phsyailly compare to the mace. Nothing you said makes it more impressive just some unproven sorcerers with nothing definitive to it.


I agree but the ice swords aren't as impressive as Sauron's mace either. We have never seen them shown capable of the power of Sauron's mace in the prologue.

Absolutely no proof as it has only shown capable of destroying regular swords. You need to back your claim. It doesn't destroy magically enchanted swords in its own universe.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Nothing the swords have done phsyailly compare to the mace. Nothing you said makes it more impressive just some unproven sorcerers with nothing definitive to it.


I agree but the ice swords aren't as impressive as Sauron's mace either. We have never seen them shown capable of the power of Sauron's mace in the prologue.

Absolutely no proof as it has only shown capable of destroying regular swords. You need to back your claim. It doesn't destroy magically enchanted swords in its own universe.

Magilly enchanted swords of GoT. LoTR doesnt have the same enchantment material...Valyrian Steel.

Walkers Swords are so cold they shatter any metal.

The metal contracts till it shatters. Every metal does that. Even Saurons Mace. Now Valyrian steel was made by the Dragon Lords of Valyria. Somehow their enchantments prevent the sword from doing that.

UNLESS UNLESS UNLSESS. Saurons Mace was forged in the same way, IT WILL SHATTER.

My point is valid for GoT has proved it. LoTR has no prove as to say Sauron Mace wobt shatter. You are cornered Quanchi!.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Magilly enchanted swords of GoT. LoTR doesnt have the same enchantment material...Valyrian Steel.

Walkers Swords are so cold they shatter any metal.

The metal contracts till it shatters. Every metal does that. Even Saurons Mace. Now Valyrian steel was made by the Dragon Lords of Valyria. Somehow their enchantments prevent the sword from doing that.

UNLESS UNLESS UNLSESS. Saurons Mace was forged in the same way, IT WILL SHATTER.

My point is valid for GoT has proved it. LoTR has no prove as to say Sauron Mace wobt shatter. You are cornered Quanchi!. You are repeating yourself. The mace has greater feats than the Valyrian steel.

Sauron has fire so not only it can destroy the ring. Heat defeats cold.

No, you have no evidence to support this claim. Sauron's mace never breaks nor does anything special in the GoT universe.

That only applies to GoT materials and magic. No, you continue to hide behind a plot device while ignoring the feats of the mace which is far more impressive than dragon glass or Valyrian steel.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You are repeating yourself. The mace has greater feats than the Valyrian steel.

Sauron has fire so not only it can destroy the ring. Heat defeats cold.

No, you have no evidence to support this claim. Sauron's mace never breaks nor does anything special in the GoT universe.

That only applies to GoT materials and magic. No, you continue to hide behind a plot device while ignoring the feats of the mace which is far more impressive than dragon glass or Valyrian steel.

Which evidence proofs that Saurons mace >> Valyrian steel?? None.

Fire cant harm the walkers. And still his mace gets shattered.

I keep repeating it cause you keep repeating a none proved point.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Which evidence proofs that Saurons mace >> Valyrian steel?? None.

Fire cant harm the walkers. And still his mace gets shattered.

I keep repeating it cause you keep repeating a none proved point. Sauron using it. It looks far more powerful than Valyrian steel in combat. Watch the clip. The mace makes it look pitiful in direct comparison.


So you don't believe fire can hurt them at all ? So the dragons can't harm them at all ? What proof do you have ?


Evidence supports me not you. What magical weapon has been destroyed by contact with a white Walker ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Sauron using it. It looks far more powerful than Valyrian steel in combat. Watch the clip. The mace makes it look pitiful in direct comparison.


So you don't believe fire can hurt them at all ? So the dragons can't harm them at all ? What proof do you have ?


Evidence supports me not you. What magical weapon has been destroyed by contact with a white Walker ?

Imagine the same mace but made of Valyrian steel used by the same guy...i dont see your point. We are talking about the type of material not the item itself!

When the Children of the Forest fired the wood sorrounding the ravens cave the zombis couldnt enter cause they got burnt...Untile the Night king just crossed the fire without getting harm at all.

Evidence is against u.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Imagine the same mace but made of Valyrian steel used by the same guy...i dont see your point. We are talking about the type of material not the item itself!

When the Children of the Forest fired the wood sorrounding the ravens cave the zombis couldnt enter cause they got burnt...Untile the Night king just crossed the fire without getting harm at all.

Evidence is against u. So you admit no one from GoT can do so but even if you don't there aren't any GoT examples of anything else comparable to Sauron's feat.

That was a minor fire he put out due to extreme cold not anything comparable to dragon fire.

Do you think dragon fire won't harm white walkers ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
So you admit no one from GoT can do so but even if you don't there aren't any GoT examples of anything else comparable to Sauron's feat.

That was a minor fire he put out due to extreme cold not anything comparable to dragon fire.

Do you think dragon fire won't harm white walkers ?

No i dont think so. Fire is fire.

We woulf be speculating that. So far they seem fireproof

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No i dont think so. Fire is fire.

We woulf be speculating that. So far they seem fireproof So a match has the same concentrated heat as a flamethrower. That's asinine.

They walked through a minor fire path they didn't withstand dragon fire. Dragon fire is much more powerful than the fire on that path. Undeniable.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So a match has the same concentrated heat as a flamethrower. That's asinine.

They walked through a minor fire path they didn't withstand dragon fire. Dragon fire is much more powerful than the fire on that path. Undeniable.

Does Sauron throw fire like a dragon does?

Am sure the Night King could withstand a dragon's fire for a while.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Does Sauron throw fire like a dragon does?

Am sure the Night King could withstand a dragon's fire for a while. He puts him down with his mace. But he can use fire as spray out from his spirit form in remarkable fashion. He destroys Gandalf's staff.

You have no proof this far. Maybe he will get more impressive feats in season eight. Sauron wins.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He puts him down with his mace. But he can use fire as spray out from his spirit form in remarkable fashion. He destroys Gandalf's staff.

You have no proof this far. Maybe he will get more impressive feats in season eight. Sauron wins.

Mace Shatters and Sauron becomes a dead guy. Hahaha.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Mace Shatters and Sauron becomes a dead guy. Hahaha. No enchanted weapon has ever shattered. Baseless claim. Sauron kills him with one swing of the mace. What happens when Valyrian steel hits white walkers ?

Do they die ?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
You are speculating that.

Royman Royce sword wasnt made of normal steel...no Knights sword is. Yet it shattered.

No, I'm not. And you assuming every sword held by a knight or lord is anything bar Castle Forged Steel IS a speculation. Not everyone has Valyrian Steel Swords or Dawn.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No, I'm not. And you assuming every sword held by a knight or lord is anything bar Castle Forged Steel IS a speculation. Not everyone has Valyrian Steel Swords or Dawn.

Okay! So why would Sauron? His mace shatters.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No enchanted weapon has ever shattered. Baseless claim. Sauron kills him with one swing of the mace. What happens when Valyrian steel hits white walkers ?

Do they die ?



Yes they die. And the mace wouldnt kill The Night king. Only Valyrian steel and Obsidian can. Period.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Okay! So why would Sauron? His mace shatters.

Because Sauron's power is infused into it. A power that exceeds the Children and the Walkers by a considerable margin. Give me a reason why the mace WOULD shatter like common steel weapons.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Yes they die. And the mace wouldnt kill The Night king. Only Valyrian steel and Obsidian can. Period.

No Limit fallacy and False equivalency. We can't say for certain whether or not a power never used against a Walker would work or not. A touch from Sauron burned Gil Gilad from the inside out. Think on that, would you?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Because Sauron's power is infused into it. A power that exceeds the Children and the Walkers by a considerable margin. Give me a reason why the mace WOULD shatter like common steel weapons.



No Limit fallacy and False equivalency. We can't say for certain whether or not a power never used against a Walker would work or not. A touch from Sauron burned Gil Gilad from the inside out. Think on that, would you?

Because it isnt enchanted with the same enchantments of the Dragon Lords.

You are SPECULATING that Sauron is a better Magician than the COTF.

The Night King has powerful magic too.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Because it isnt enchanted with the same enchantments of the Dragon Lords.

It does not need to be. All it needs to be is sufficient to the task. And it is. Plus, the mace isn't Sauron's only weapon.

http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/2/1488/Sauron_Sword.jpg

This, combined with his personal powers, his magics, and his Maiar status makes Sauron an engine of mass destruction.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
You are SPECULATING that Sauron is a better Magician than the COTF.

Hah! How!?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
The Night King has powerful magic too.

He has powerful magics, but nothing compared to Sauron.

It's been a while since I've watched the LOTR films, but didn't Sauron die from just a slash to the fingers from Narsil wielded by Isildur?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Yes they die. And the mace wouldnt kill The Night king. Only Valyrian steel and Obsidian can. Period. Only those weapons that we know of in Westeros which doesn't apply to Middle Earth. Those variables don't exist in the same universe so you reached a flawed conclusion. When enchanted weapons hit the Night King he dies.

Originally posted by Impediment
It's been a while since I've watched the LOTR films, but didn't Sauron die from just a slash to the fingers from Narsil wielded by Isildur? Yes, due to the separation of the ring. Sauron left himself in a vulnerable position reaching forward against the downed man with the broken sword.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, due to the separation of the ring. Sauron left himself in a vulnerable position reaching forward against the downed man with the broken sword.

In other words, Sauron was defeated by the plot :P

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
In other words, Sauron was defeated by the plot :P That is usually the case. One thing is for sure the Night King hasn't met anyone like Sauron before.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That is usually the case. One thing is for sure the Night King hasn't met anyone like Sauron before.

Well that's the thing, Sauron is an out of context situation in ASOIAF/GOT. We can't just assume that the Walker's power overwhelm's Sauron's, that makes no sense.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Well that's the thing, Sauron is an out of context situation in ASOIAF/GOT. We can't just assume that the Walker's power overwhelm's Sauron's, that makes no sense. I agree and the same goes for Sauron. I think it's unfair to think neither guy can hurt the other.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Ohh i see! Sorry.

Well either way. Remember that the White Walkers can only be killed with Valyrian steel or Dragon glass...If Sauron doesnt know this then he has no way to win.

Fire. You forgot fire.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Fire. You forgot fire. He has claimed fire can't hurt them.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I agree and the same goes for Sauron. I think it's unfair to think neither guy can hurt the other.

Well, in technicality, I find the average Walker to be poor in combat without his ice powers working. I refer to the very first Walker Jon killed in Hardhome. The Walker was a beast when it killed the Then, and was ragdolling Jon, to be sure.

But, when it's power to shatter weapons failed on Longclaw, the Walker's weak combat skill was revealed, as Jon shattered the Walker in less than 2 moves after he first blocked the ice sword.

http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/556c376869beddef20cba7b1/jon%20vs%20white%20walker.gif

Again, when Jon and the Magnificent Seven confront the lone Walker and his small group of Wights during the Wight Hunt, Jon outfights the Walker rather handidly.

This tells me that the Walkers rely rather heavily on their powers working effectively. I cannot say if it's the same for the Night King himself though, because the King has not been in personal combat, but... assuming that Viserion killing Javelin Throw wasn't magically enhanced, that gives him a Giant's level of super strength at least, and that would put him well within Sauron's strength range.

It does seem the basic white walkers rely on their powers but like any race we judge them based off the merits of each character's showings. That being said that javelin throw was rather impressive and we will know all we need to know about the Night King when the final season finally airs. Whether it was magically enhanced or just super strength we all agree that toss would hurt. Extremely impressive.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It does seem the basic white walkers rely on their powers but like any race we judge them based off the merits of each character's showings. That being said that javelin throw was rather impressive and we will know all we need to know about the Night King when the final season finally airs. Whether it was magically enhanced or just super strength we all agree that toss would hurt. Extremely impressive.

That Javelin Toss was devastating. Would have been more devastating if he aimed it at Drogon, but eh, thats just me being picky :P

https://media.vanityfair.com/photos/5999f404ccc01e54ba4cdaf6/master/w_690,c_limit/viserion-down.gif

Josh, do you concede ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Josh, do you concede ?

On what?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
On what? To Sauron winning.

Originally posted by quanchi112
To Sauron winning.

I could agree on that!

But not by his mace. He will have to find another way to do so. Cause that mace WILL Shatter.

It is general info Ice Swords>>>any other material except Valyirian and Dragon Glass!

So Sauron will have to rely on spells or other stuff.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I could agree on that!

But not by his mace. He will have to find another way to do so. Cause that mace WILL Shatter.

It is general info Ice Swords>>>any other material except Valyirian and Dragon Glass!

So Sauron will have to rely on spells or other stuff. You don't have any evidence to prove magical weapons shatter against the Night King. Otherwise it's a baseless claim. He doesn't use regular weapons.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You don't have any evidence to prove magical weapons shatter against the Night King. Otherwise it's a baseless claim. He doesn't use regular weapons.

I have evidence that any material except Dragon glass and Valyrian steel WILL SHATTER.

I also have EVIDENCE that the WW can only be killed by DRAGON GLASS and VALYRIAN STEEL.

You have NO EVIDENCE to show that Sauron Mace is made of any of these materials.

You have NO EVIDENCE that Sauron will know this and be able yo make this materials.

PERIOD!!!

Why do we keep arguing the samething. YOU HAVR NO EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I have evidence that any material except Dragon glass and Valyrian steel WILL SHATTER.Only material in GoT not including the magical weapons in Lotr so irrelevant.
Same reasoning destroys that plot device which doesn't take anither world into consideration just its own.


It doesn't have to be. What magical weapon shattered against a white Walker ? Regular weapons that don't compare to Sauron's mace feat.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Only material in GoT not including the magical weapons in Lotr so irrelevant.
Same reasoning destroys that plot device which doesn't take anither world into consideration just its own.


It doesn't have to be. What magical weapon shattered against a white Walker ? Regular weapons that don't compare to Sauron's mace feat.

You keep avoiding the evidence!

If a character is said to br immortal it doesnt mean it wont be agains a character of another universe just to make it fair.

You are being irrational.

MY POINTS ARE CLEAR. YOURS ARENT

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
You keep avoiding the evidence!

If a character is said to br immortal it doesnt mean it wont be agains a character of another universe just to make it fair.

You are being irrational.

MY POINTS ARE CLEAR. YOURS ARENT You don't have any magical weapons failing to hurt him and Sauron's feat is more impressive than anything Valyrian steel has shown.

Your points are baseless and only apply to weapons from Westeros not middle earth.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You don't have any magical weapons failing to hurt him and Sauron's feat is more impressive than anything Valyrian steel has shown.

Your points are baseless and only apply to weapons from Westeros not middle earth.

You have no proofs of that.

Invalid point.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
You have no proofs of that.

Invalid point. I have logical deduction and you have zero proof his mace breaks up against his skin. Special weapons don't do so even in that universe let alone anything from the Lotr one.

Eat your heart out, Night King. Now this is power.

https://media.giphy.com/media/GM9xeWzhdeKSQ/giphy.gif

Josh, I'm going to say this, and pay careful attention ok?

The Night King, and the White Walkers can shatter common iron, and steel weapons, even those from Middle Earth. Nobody is saying anything different here.

But Sauron's Mace is not a common steel weapon. Heck, judging from what we see, even in the gif Quan has posted above, it's not even a rare magic weapon like the Witch King's sword.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7z3ayo0f41qgbp1jo1_500.gif

It's a unique weapon to Sauron, it smashes through Numenorean and Elvish armor and weaponry like a cannon shell through a block of butter. No Walker, NK included has ever faced this kind of power before, and simply assuming that it would shatter like common pig iron weapons is.... stretching the definition far too much. That would be no different than assuming that the Night King could shatter Narsil or Anduril, or Glamdring for that matter... Could I say that the night King's ice swords would shatter against the Witch King because of his aura of protection against any weapon bar the Barrow swords? Or the fact that the NK is a man? Of course I can't do that.

https://media.tenor.com/images/1d0d125818b0813abf7b201eb0bea967/tenor.gif http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/3242542/trolling-w-sauron-o.gif https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/villains/images/0/0f/SauronMaze.gif

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Josh, I'm going to say this, and pay careful attention ok?

The Night King, and the White Walkers can shatter common iron, and steel weapons, even those from Middle Earth. Nobody is saying anything different here.

But Sauron's Mace is not a common steel weapon. Heck, judging from what we see, even in the gif Quan has posted above, it's not even a rare magic weapon like the Witch King's sword.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7z3ayo0f41qgbp1jo1_500.gif

It's a unique weapon to Sauron, it smashes through Numenorean and Elvish armor and weaponry like a cannon shell through a block of butter. No Walker, NK included has ever faced this kind of power before, and simply assuming that it would shatter like common pig iron weapons is.... stretching the definition far too much. That would be no different than assuming that the Night King could shatter Narsil or Anduril, or Glamdring for that matter... Could I say that the night King's ice swords would shatter against the Witch King because of his aura of protection against any weapon bar the Barrow swords? Or the fact that the NK is a man? Of course I can't do that.

https://media.tenor.com/images/1d0d125818b0813abf7b201eb0bea967/tenor.gif http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/3242542/trolling-w-sauron-o.gif https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/villains/images/0/0f/SauronMaze.gif

Fine. The Night king is still good at shooting Ice Spears. That armor will get pierced.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Fine. The Night king is still good at shooting Ice Spears. That armor will get pierced.

Thats possible. Assuming Sauron doesn't teleport, or go intangible, or weave a protection spell :P

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Thats possible. Assuming Sauron doesn't teleport, or go intangible, or weave a protection spell :P

Yeah. And how does sauron plan to kill the Night King?

By hitting him with his big fcking magic weapon.

Originally posted by Sable
By hitting him with his big fcking magic weapon.

I doubt that will harm him. It can make him fly a couple of meters. But Walkers have only been proven to be vulnerable to dragon glass and Valyrian Steel.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Yeah. And how does sauron plan to kill the Night King?

Any number of ways.
#1: Using his magically empowered mace (He has not shown any resistances to magical weapons, and is quite vulnerable to comparatively magically null weapons like Dragonglass and Valyrian Steel.)
#2: Using his magically empowered sword (Ditto)
#3: Mindraping him (Sauron is a master of manipulating the darkest desires of anyone who confronts him. It's how the ring is able to affect so many people)
#4: Burning him alive from the inside out (He did this to Gil Gilad, a relatively powerful Elvish High King. And if fire is a weakness to the Walkers and their wights, then this would definitely suffice.)

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I doubt that will harm him. It can make him fly a couple of meters. But Walkers have only been proven to be vulnerable to dragon glass and Valyrian Steel.

Again, you are relying on a no limit fallacy. These vs debates are not zero sum games, nor is Sauron some mook with an iron mace here.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Any number of ways.
#1: Using his magically empowered mace (He has not shown any resistances to magical weapons, and is quite vulnerable to comparatively magically null weapons like Dragonglass and Valyrian Steel.)
#2: Using his magically empowered sword (Ditto)
#3: Mindraping him (Sauron is a master of manipulating the darkest desires of anyone who confronts him. It's how the ring is able to affect so many people)
#4: Burning him alive from the inside out (He did this to Gil Gilad, a relatively powerful Elvish High King. And if fire is a weakness to the Walkers and their wights, then this would definitely suffice.)



Again, you are relying on a no limit fallacy. These vs debates are not zero sum games, nor is Sauron some mook with an iron mace here.

No one is using fallacy but facts. The White Walkers have been shown BOTH in the Series as in the BOOKS to be immune to anything except DRAGON GLASS and VALYRIAN STEEL.

Unless SAURON possesses this the Night King is pratically invulnerable. Now Sauron might find Dragon Glass and use it, that makes more sense. But before he does that he will have a though fight.

1. The Mace won't affect him. The mace can be magical, but it's material isn't Valyrian Steel or Dragon Glass. It can be magical, but magic doesn't affect the Walkers. Not any other magic than that used in Valyrian Steel (that is what makes it valyrian steel after all, the specific enchantments casted by the Dragon Lords of Valyria). Am sure there are other swords enchanted by other enchantments in GoT, but that doesn't make it Valyrian Steel.

2. No sword that isn't made by Valyrian steel will affect the Walker. And am sure that it won't the Night King. The Night King isn't an ordinary Walker.

3. Am pretty much sure that the Night King is immune to telepathic attacks. Bran and other Green Seers as well as Witches could have tried the same method before throught history. Yet there hasn't been evidence that magic and telepathic attacks can affect the Walkers (They are no ordinary beings; in fact they are magical beings themselves)

4. I am sure Ice doesn't burn. The WW are made of thick COLD ice. I think that would be useless. The Knight King has been seen walking through fire before as if it was nothing.

Am not saying Sauron Can't Defeat the Night King. But it is no easy task and it will require more than Sauron's normal abilities.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No one is using fallacy but facts. The White Walkers are have been shown BOTH in the Series as in the BOOKS to be immune to anything except DRAGON GLASS and VALYRIAN STEEL.

Except that is the very definition of a no limit fallacy. Allow me to explain this to you - according to what you just said, even beings as powerful as... say, Galactus, who has the ability to manipulate matter at the molecular and even atomic level, would not be able to defeat the Night King with his power because.... it's not Valyrian Steel or Dragonglass? I mean, what? That is ludicrous. That is a complete departure from reality. Valyrian Steel's feats are good, but not THAT good. Nor has the Night King been tested against such a power. Never ever assume imperviousness against things that are specifically not other things without direct proof.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Unless SAURON possesses this the Night King is pratically invulnerable. Now Sauron might find Dragon Glass and use it, that makes more sense. But before he does that he will have a though fight.

Incorrect again. We only see the NK and the Walkers be impervious to common steel. They have not been tested against anything else. Certainly not by weapons and magics that outstrip even Valyrian Steel, which is loosely based on Demascus Steel.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
1. The Mace won't affect him. The mace can be magical, but it's material isn't Valyrian Steel or Dragon Glass. It can be magical, but magic doesn't affect the Walkers. Not any other magic than that used in Valyrian Steel (that is what makes it valyrian steel after all, the specific enchantments casted by the Dragon Lords of Valyria). Am sure there are other swords enchanted by other enchantments in GoT, but that doesn't make it Valyrian Steel.

See above, you are making a leap of logic nobody else is willing to make. You are arguing this in circles without evidence.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
2. No sword that isn't made by Valyrian steel will affect the Walker. And am sure that it won't the Night King. The Night King isn't an ordinary Walker.

Same as above.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
3. Am pretty much sure that the Night King is immune to telepathic attacks. Bran and other Green Seers as well as Witches could have tried the same method before throught history. Yet there hasn't been evidence that magic and telepathic attacks can affect the Walkers (They are no ordinary beings; in fact they are magical beings themselves)

You're comparing Greenseers to a Maiar who's specialty is the domination over the will of others? Oooook? Sorry, I'm willing to say that Sauron's mental manipulation feats far outshine those of the greenseeers and witches prophecies.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
4. I am sure Ice doesn't burn. The WW are made of thick COLD ice. I think that would be useless. The Knight King has been seen walking through fire before as if it was nothing.

The Walkers and the Night King are not made of ice. They are made from flesh and blood men and Craster's Sons. They were turned into weapons of war by the COTF, but are still people, not ice elementals.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Am not saying Sauron Can't Defeat the Night King. But it is no easy task and it will require more than Sauron's normal abilities.

You have to prove this beyond "Teh ice and invulnerablez!" because your relying on a no limit fallacy in both scenarios, and incorrect on their actual makeup in a third.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Except that is the very definition of a no limit fallacy. Allow me to explain this to you - according to what you just said, even beings as powerful as... say, Galactus, who has the ability to manipulate matter at the molecular and even atomic level, would not be able to defeat the Night King with his power because.... it's not Valyrian Steel or Dragonglass? I mean, what? That is ludicrous. That is a complete departure from reality. Valyrian Steel's feats are good, but not THAT good. Nor has the Night King been tested against such a power. Never ever assume imperviousness against things that are specifically not other things without direct proof.

First of all you are being completly irrational here. We are talking about Sauron not a Cosmic entity. The levels of power are nowhere NEAR. As you said he has Matter and Molecular manipulation. OFCOURSE he could turn NK into dust!!!!

BUT NONE OF SAURON'S FEATS IS ENOUGH TO PROVE THAT COULD DEFEAT NK. You are the one exaggerating SAURON'S abilities.


Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero Incorrect again. We only see the NK and the Walkers be impoervious to common steel. They have not been tested against anything else. Certainly not by weapons and magics that outstrip even Valyrian Steel, whic is loosely based on Demascus Steel.



See above, you are making a leap of logic nobody else is willing to make. You are argung this in circles without evidence.


Same as above.

Well everyone is wrong! You all are ASSUMING/INVENTING/SPECULATING that the WW are vulnerable to Magic. Which IS NOT SUPPORTED! The COTF and the Green Seers possessed powerful magic, however in no book nor serie is it proven that MAGIC AFFECTS THEM. And the Night King is 2 or 3 as powerful as a Normal Walker. SO PLEASE STOP SPECULATING. BRING EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS.


Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero Your comparing Greenseers to a Maiar who's specialty is the domination over the will of others? Oooook? Sorry, I'm willing to say that Sauron's mental manipulation feats far outshine those of the greenseeers and witches prophecies.

No. Bran who is a greenseer has been seen to be able to WARG people. That is mind manipulation. AND AGAIN YOU ARE SPECULATING THAT. And Bran is young and hasn't master his abilities yet. There were 100s of Greenseers when the first WW came to Westeros. And none prove to be able to mind control WW. Again it's the NIGHT KING we are talking not a normal WW.


Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero The Walkers and the Night King are not made of ice. They are made from flesh and blood men and Craster's Sons. They were turned into weapons of war by the COTF, but are still people, not ice elementals.

They are. Their skin is no normal skin. Normal skin burns and gets pierced by Swords and arrows. According to the Show they were humans. The books take them as a separate specie from men. Also, it is ICE. They've been seen radiating cold from their skins. So it is either ice or just SUPER FROZEN Skin. Either way invulnerable to most materials.




Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero You have to prove this beyond "Teh ice and invulnerablez!" because your relying on a no limit fallacy in both scenarios, and incorrect on their actual makeup in a third.

Then you are relying on NON BACKED UP Information. You have shown no evidence to back up your claims. I HAVE.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I doubt that will harm him. It can make him fly a couple of meters. But Walkers have only been proven to be vulnerable to dragon glass and Valyrian Steel.

You can't be serious? Valarian Steel > Ring of Power?

Originally posted by Sable
You can't be serious? Valarian Steel > Ring of Power?

No am not saying that.

Ring of power (isn't equal) to Valyrian steel.

Yes its above it.

I see two outcomes. Both begin with Sauron attempting to close the distance:

1. Night King incapacitates Sauron with a monster javelin ice spear throw.
2. Night King throws the spear, Sauron tanks it or it misses, Sauron whacks the unholy tar out of Night King, sending him back to north of the wall.

Between having a massive super mace and armor, a magical super ring, and being a demonic type being, I give the nod to Sauron.

Originally posted by Sable
Yes it above it.

Above it maybe. But isn't the same material.

So it SHOULDNT affect the Night King. Doesn't matter if the material is stronger, or makes it stronger, or denser, or thicker, or sharper, or bigger. It isn't Valyrian steel.

Why can't Sauron stop it Via TK, send it back, throw his barrier up, or disentigrate him?

Originally posted by John Murdoch
I see two outcomes. Both begin with Sauron attempting to close the distance:

1. Night King incapacitates Sauron with a monster javelin ice spear throw.
2. Night King throws the spear, Sauron tanks it or it misses, Sauron whacks the unholy tar out of Night King, sending him back to north of the wall.

Between having a massive super mace and armor, a magical super ring, and being a demonic type being, I give the nod to Sauron.

I could perfectly agree to that. HAHAHAHA.

The Night King will then have to get himself a Dragon to bring down the wall and fight Sauron again.

Originally posted by Sable
Why can't Sauron stop it Via TK, send it back, throw his barrier up, or disentigrate him?

Which barrier? Throw him yes...Desintegrate him...i doubt that. Unless Sauron has the Phoenix force within him.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I could perfectly agree to that. HAHAHAHA.

The Night King will then have to get himself a Dragon to bring down the wall and fight Sauron again.

I smell a cinematic crossover. WB needs more money.

Stops it Via TK, sends it back, puts his barrier up and disintegrates him.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Which barrier? Throw him yes...Desintegrate him...i doubt that. Unless Sauron has the Phoenix force within him.

He did this in the movies..without his full power.

Originally posted by Sable
He did this in the movies..without his full power.

did what?

z7_U6y8kJaY

Originally posted by Sable
z7_U6y8kJaY

That isn't the physical form of Sauron.

Doesn't mean he can't perform same feats at less power.

Also the Witch King who is < Sauron

dQ_-rmuPZC4

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
First of all you are being completly irrational here. We are talking about Sauron not a Cosmic entity. The levels of power are nowhere NEAR. As you said he has Matter and Molecular manipulation. OFCOURSE he could turn NK into dust!!!!

And yet his powers are not Valyrian Steel or Dragonglass, yet you believe that those being the NK's only vulnerabilities makes him immune to other forms of damage. That is literally what you said. You make an exception for Galactus' power because... why?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
BUT NONE OF SAURON'S FEATS IS ENOUGH TO PROVE THAT COULD DEFEAT NK. You are the one exaggerating SAURON'S abilities.

No, I'm literally not. I'm simply not accepting that the Walkers ability to break common steel swords gives him blanket immunity to other forms of damage. The people of Westeros have not tested any other forms of attack against them, and have only confirmed those two. That does not prove that they are immune to all other forms of damage. Negative evidence is not evidence.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Well everyone is wrong! You all are ASSUMING/INVENTING/SPECULATING that the WW are vulnerable to Magic. Which IS NOT SUPPORTED! The COTF and the Green Seers possessed powerful magic, however in no book nor serie is it proven that MAGIC AFFECTS THEM. And the Night King is 2 or 3 as powerful as a Normal Walker. SO PLEASE STOP SPECULATING. BRING EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS.

I present to you, your demand for evidence without providing any yourself, even though it is you that must prove that the White Walker can withstand Sauron's power, not the other way around. Using the feats of breaking ordinary steel does not cover magical weapons or the power of a Maiar. All you have from the show and the books is their ability to shatter common steel swords.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No. Bran who is a greenseer has been seen to be able to WARG people. That is mind manipulation. AND AGAIN YOU ARE SPECULATING THAT. And Bran is young and hasn't master his abilities yet. There were 100s of Greenseers when the first WW came to Westeros. And none prove to be able to mind control WW. Again it's the NIGHT KING we are talking not a normal WW.

And the Night King, who outside of the javelin throw and an ability to jack an untrained and struggling Greenseer in Bran, is effectively featless in every other aspect. We don't even know if he shares the standard White Walkers ability to break steel yet. Shall I list off further assumptions you are making right here and now?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
They are. Their skin is no normal skin. Normal skin burns and gets pierced by Swords and arrows. According to the Show they were humans. The books take them as a separate specie from men. Also, it is ICE. They've been seen radiating cold from their skins. So it is either ice or just SUPER FROZEN Skin. Either way invulnerable to most materials.

it's superfrozen skin. It's not literal ice. And it's not invulnerable to most materials. It's PROVEN to have a resistance to steel so far and that is LITERALLY it. Do not make that out to be any more than what it is.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Then you are relying on NON BACKED UP Information. You have shown no evidence to back up your claims. I HAVE.

No, you have not/ Not for what you are claiming. And I did provide evidence that Sauron's mace is not ordinary steel nor is it even normal in any sense of the word. You already accepted this, but went on to say that the walker's ability to withstand steel STILL applies for some reason you never explained.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
And yet his powers are not Valyrian Steel or Dragonglass, yet you believe that those being the NK's only vulnerabilities makes him immune to other forms of damage. That is literally what you said. You make an exception for Galactus' power because... why? /B]

As i said. Galactus is a cosmic being. Sauron and the NIGHT KING are DUST TO HIM. He can destroy entire planets. So, the reason why is pretty much obvious. Am saying he is immune to what SAURON has in this fight. Again those are the only materials which have been proven to harm him. Any other metal isn't proven. THEREFORE it isn't valid to claim that Sauron's mace will kill him. IT ISN'T BACKED UP.


Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero No, I'm literally not. I'm simply not accepting that the Walkers ability to break common steel swords gives him blanket immunity to other forms of damage. The people of Westeros have not tested any other forms of attack against them, and have only confirmed those two. That does not prove that they are immune to all other forms of damage. Negative evidence is not evidence.

Again there is no evidence to prove your points. Therefore am not taking them. Again no evidence to back up the idea that the Mace can harm him.



Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero I present to you, your demand for evidence without providing any yourself, even though it is you that must prove that the White Walker can withstand Sauron's power, not the other way around. Using the feats of breaking ordinary steel does not cover magical weapons or the power of a Maiar. All you have from the show and the books is their ability to shatter common steel swords.

Oh i have shown evidence. The books and the series say ANY METAL EXCEPT Valyrian steel will shatter. Any Metal except VALYRIAN STEEL and DRAGON GLASS has not been proven to harm them. Now you are CHANGING THE WORDS. IT NEVER said COMMON METAL CANT HURT THEM.

The first time the WALKERS came nothing could stop them. We are talking about 8000 Years ago. Back then there was POWERFUL magic, There were MORE DRAGONS, there wasn't a WAR WHICH WEAKENED THE REALMS.

Back then it was the AGE OF HEROES. Heroes like BRANDON STARK, AZZOR AHAI,THE MIGHT DORAN (which defied the GODS) THE GREY KING which slainned the MIGHTY NAGGA. Yet the Other were able to destroy MOST CASTLES. THE LONG NIGHT is said to have reached the VALE or further. Only THE SWORD LIGHTBRINGER COULD BRING DAWN.
Now, that even CHANGES THINGS FURTHER. Cause who is the leader of the OTHERS, the NK. How can the LN be stopped? By defeating the Night King. What was required to end the LN? LIFEBRINGER. Lifebringer wasn't an ordinary Sword, nor an ordinary Valyrian Sword. So, again a special sword is required.

NO EVIDENCE TO SAY THAT SAURON'S WEAPONS CAN HARM HIM.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero And the Night King, who outside of the javelin throw and an ability to jack an untrained and struggling Greenseer in Bran, is effectively featless in every other aspect. We don't even know if he shares the standard White Walkers ability to break steel yet. Shall I list off further assumptions you are making right here and now?

No. NK is more powerful than the Standard WW. I don't see your point.


Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero it's superfrozen skin. It's not literal ice. And it's not invulnerable to most materials. It's PROVEN to have a resistance to steel so far and that is LITERALLY it. Do not make that out to be any more than what it is.

No evidence to PROVE or DISPROVE that. It could be Ice, it could be SUPER FROZEN SKIN. It doesn't matter, it is invulnerable.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero No, you have not/ Not for what you are claiming. And I did provide evidence that Sauron's mace is not ordinary steel nor is it even normal in any sense of the word. You already accepted this, but went on to say that the walker's ability to withstand steel STILL applies for some reason you never explained.

Oh yes I JUST DID EVEN FURTHER. And your points are sinking.

Sauron's Mace isn't ORDINARY steel but it isnt VALYRIAN NEITHER. Not all swords are made from ORDINARY STEEL. The SWORDS of the AGE OF HEROES werent. AND YET THE HEROES weren't able to stop them TILL LIFEBRINGER.

To me am winning this discussion. You have shown no evidence. I HAVE ONCE MORE.

Well DSZ has really taken you apart Alex. You seem like a good debater who is open to reason. I suggest you accept his.

Originally posted by Sable
Doesn't mean he can't perform same feats at less power.

Also the Witch King who is < Sauron

dQ_-rmuPZC4

He could make it. Yes HE COULD MAKE VALYRIAN STEEL. Or get OBSIDIAN/DRAGON GLASS.

But since there is no prep time, and the OP SPECIFICALLY said that Sauron only had his mace....THAT OPTION IS OUT.

Originally posted by Sable
Well DSZ has really taken you apart Alex. You seem like a good debater who is open to reason. I suggest you accept his.

I am. REASONABLE. But i can't be reasonable to UNREASONABLE RESPONSES.

WORST. I can't ACCEPT NON-EVIDENCED INFORMATION.

He is being tore appart. I have backed up my responses. HE HASNT.

All he and QUANCHI and others did were to say:

Sauron mace>>>Valyrian steel therefore the NK can die to this other material!

WRONG! AND THERE IS NO EVIDENCE NEITHER TO SAY THAT THE MACE'S MATERIAL>>>VALYRIAN MATERIAL.

I ONLY ALLOWED THEM TO MAKE THAT ASSUMPTION.

So you are telling me him being beaten mercilessly by a weapon so powerful is its taking out multiple ranks of large men fully armored and the night king will laugh off? And you are maintaining he can't use his other powers while in his full power form.

Were is Nemebro for this one.

Also what is the best feat for the night king as of now? A ice spear?

You need to grasp that The Material that makes up the Mace can't harm the WW cause it isn't made the same way nor enchanted with the same spells as VALYRIAN STEEL is.

IT CAN BE STRONGER, OR MORE DURABLE, OR SHARPER, OR ENCHANTED WITH OTHER ENCHANTMENTS, OR TICKER, OR BIGGER.

But it WONT KILL THE WALKERS NOR THE NK CAUSE IT ISN'T VALYRIAN NOR DRAGON GLASS.

YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE TO CLAIM SUCH A THING.

That is where you are wrong.

An enchantment with more power, more magic always breaks the lesser.

This is COMMON and FACTUAL.

I can give two examples of said weapons and material which are supposed to be the strongest and most powerful, and indestructible but outmatched by a high power.

Gungir>Thors Hammer

Infinity Gem>Vibranium

Originally posted by Sable
So you are telling me him being beaten mercilessly by a weapon so powerful is its taking out multiple ranks of large men fully armored and the night king will laugh off? And you are maintaining he can't use his other powers while in his full power form.

Were is Nemebro for this one.

Also what is the best feat for the night king as of now? A ice spear?

First of all am not saying he will not be affected by it. BUT DEFINETLY NOT KILLED.

ALSO ISN'T LIKE THE NK WILL JUST LET SAURON BEAT HIM WITHOUT RESPONSE FROM HIS BEHALF.

The NK isn't a stupid ordinary SOLDIER.

Not any ICE SPEAR. A WW ICE SPEAR. Have a WILDING CRAFT an Ice spear and i will shatter to a WALKERS ICE SPEAR.

Also, the ICE SPEAR COULD shatter the MACE. Again i will bring the point just for you to see that the SPEAR/SWORD isn't anything ordinary itself.

But i will not bring that point, so SAURON has a chance.

The creator of the Thread didn't specified nor said that SAURON is in FULL POWER. He said Sauron's Physical form. That is the one shown holding the MACE.

Originally posted by Sable
I can give two examples of said weapons and material which are supposed to be the strongest and most powerful, and indestructible outmatched.

Gungir>Thors Hammer

Infinity Gem>Vibranium

OHH OFCOURSE! But those materials are UNDISTRUCTIBLE

Adamantium could hold itself too! BUT THERE IS EVIDENCE TO BACK UP THOSE IDEAS.

THE MACE HAS NONE. THE MACE ISN'T ADAMATIUM NOR VIBRANIUM.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
OHH OFCOURSE! But those materials are UNDISTRUCTIBLE

Adamantium could hold itself too! BUT THERE IS EVIDENCE TO BACK UP THOSE IDEAS.

THE MACE HAS NONE. THE MACE ISN'T ADAMATIUM NOR VIBRANIUM.

Not undestructible, but not DESTROYED easily. Atleast not with any other material. IT IS REQUIRED ENORMOUS AMOUNTS OF ENERGY TO DESTROY THOSE MATERIALS.

THE NK doesn't have that, so therefore they are UNDESTRUCTIBLE for the NK.

Why would Sauron just stand there and allow him to be hit, he can stop it multiple ways, break it mid air with TK, smash it with his mace mid air. Throw up a barrier. etc etc.

The mace was imbued with his power through the Ring of Power.

Sauron in Physical form, is his most powerful form. Hence everyone shitting bricks.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
OHH OFCOURSE! But those materials are UNDISTRUCTIBLE

Adamantium could hold itself too! BUT THERE IS EVIDENCE TO BACK UP THOSE IDEAS.

THE MACE HAS NONE. THE MACE ISN'T ADAMATIUM NOR VIBRANIUM.

Adamentium would not up to an infinity gem, even though its said to be indestructible, because its outclassed by a higher power.

The Ring of Power is a higher power and enchantment then valerian still, this is undeniable.

Originally posted by Sable
Why would Sauron just stand there and allow him to be hit, he can stop it multiple ways, break it mid air with TK, smash it with his mace mid air. Throw up a barrier. etc etc.

The mace was imbued with his power through the Ring of Power.

Sauron in Physical form, is his most powerful form. Hence everyone shitting bricks.

Both won't stand there allowing the other to hit themselves.

TK? Sauron Physical form has TK? Where is that shown?

Okay we won't discuss how they will fight each other. There are different ways they could attack/defend themselves.

We are just discussing their abilities.

Originally posted by Sable
Adamentium would not up to an infinity gem, even though its said to be indestructible, because its outclassed by a higher power.

The Ring of Power is a higher power and enchantment then valerian still, this is undeniable.

read upper reply. I correct myself.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Both won't stand there allowing the other to hit themselves.

TK? Sauron Physical form has TK? Where is that shown?

Okay we won't discuss how they will fight each other. There are different ways they could attack/defend themselves.

We are just discussing their abilities.

Why would he not have access to all his power while having access to the ring, when he has access to TK and many other powers without it, its non sensical he doesn't have all his powers while wearing the ring the source of all his unimaginable powers.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Not undestructible, but not DESTROYED easily. Atleast not with any other material. IT IS REQUIRED ENORMOUS AMOUNTS OF ENERGY TO DESTROY THOSE MATERIALS.

THE NK doesn't have that, so therefore they are UNDESTRUCTIBLE for the NK.

But you are saying he cannot be killed without to said plot items that rank way down on the food chain from Ring of Power.

I have to go, bbl.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
As i said. Galactus is a cosmic being. Sauron and the NIGHT KING are DUST TO HIM. He can destroy entire planets. So, the reason why is pretty much obvious. Am saying he is immune to what SAURON has in this fight. Again those are the only materials which have been proven to harm him. Any other metal isn't proven. THEREFORE it isn't valid to claim that Sauron's mace will kill him. IT ISN'T BACKED UP.

No, again, you are relying on a no limit fallacy. Look it up. And you are asking me to prove a negative.

You need to prove the Nights king can withstand more than common steel. I don';t have to prove Sauron has the power to smash through your theoretical limitless defense. Because you are basing the Walkers and the NK's ability to withstand more than steel on absolutely nothing but conjecture in an attempt to attribute more than that to their defense.

Now, prove that the Night King can withstand Sauron's mace. And if you say it's because they shatter common steel, I will laugh and point out that Sauron's Mace is not ordinary steel, thus your defense is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Again there is no evidence to prove your points. Therefore am not taking them. Again no evidence to back up the idea that the Mace can harm him.

Except that the mace is not ordinary steel, and there is no reason to assume the blasts of power would not work just as well against them as they do on humans and immortal elves.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Oh i have shown evidence. The books and the series say ANY METAL EXCEPT Valyrian steel will shatter. Any Metal except VALYRIAN STEEL and DRAGON GLASS has not been proven to harm them. Now you are CHANGING THE WORDS. IT NEVER said COMMON METAL CANT HURT THEM.

The first time the WALKERS came nothing could stop them. We are talking about 8000 Years ago. Back then there was POWERFUL magic, There were MORE DRAGONS, there wasn't a WAR WHICH WEAKENED THE REALMS.

Back then it was the AGE OF HEROES. Heroes like BRANDON STARK, AZZOR AHAI,THE MIGHT DORAN (which defied the GODS) THE GREY KING which slainned the MIGHTY NAGGA. Yet the Other were able to destroy MOST CASTLES. THE LONG NIGHT is said to have reached the VALE or further. Only THE SWORD LIGHTBRINGER COULD BRING DAWN.
Now, that even CHANGES THINGS FURTHER. Cause who is the leader of the OTHERS, the NK. How can the LN be stopped? By defeating the Night King. What was required to end the LN? LIFEBRINGER. Lifebringer wasn't an ordinary Sword, nor an ordinary Valyrian Sword. So, again a special sword is required.

NO EVIDENCE TO SAY THAT SAURON'S WEAPONS CAN HARM HIM.

Where does it say any? Where does it say ONLY Valyrian Steel and Dragonglass? The assumption is simply this - those are the only weapons shown to work THUS FAR, and does not account for materials from other worlds, nor does it account for the powers enchanted to it, or the powers of the wielder. Now, instead of trying to argue for a position you can't prove, especially since the Night's King has not been seen in combat outside of one Javelin Throw, hows about you let this go? Until season 8 wraps up, this entire debate is conjecture anyway, stop arguing a point you can't prove.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No. NK is more powerful than the Standard WW. I don't see your point.

You have no way to know that. Nobody does. The only thing you can claim is that he is a better NECROMANCER than a standard Walker. and perhaps a stronger throwing arm.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No evidence to PROVE or DISPROVE that. It could be Ice, it could be SUPER FROZEN SKIN. It doesn't matter, it is invulnerable.

The proof is what he was before. I don;t need to prove any more than that.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Oh yes I JUST DID EVEN FURTHER. And your points are sinking.

Sauron's Mace isn't ORDINARY steel but it isnt VALYRIAN NEITHER. Not all swords are made from ORDINARY STEEL. The SWORDS of the AGE OF HEROES werent. AND YET THE HEROES weren't able to stop them TILL LIFEBRINGER.

To me am winning this discussion. You have shown no evidence. I HAVE ONCE MORE.

My point is sinking? Ok, stop right there... You never had a point to begin with. I do not need to sink yours since you never had anything bar an assumption based on in universe opinion that does not account for outside of context variables.

Every sword we saw in the show used against the Walkers that shattered (This is what your thesis relies upon) was common castle forged steel (Samwell's sword) or Iron (Thenn Axe), or Brass (Common Wildling and First Men weapons).

If you want to say that the swords Dawn or Lightbringer work against the Walkers, neither of which are valyrian Steel or Dragonglass, then you've already brought your defense undone by your own hand.

Originally posted by Sable
Why would he not have access to all his power while having access to the ring, when he has access to TK and many other powers without it, its non sensical he doesn't have all his powers while wearing the ring.

No. His Spirit form showed that. His physical hasn't.

Else he would have levitated all those troops like he did with Gandalf.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No, again, you are relying on a no limit fallacy. Look it up. And you are asking me to prove a negative.

You need to prove the Nights king can withstand more than common steel. I don';t have to prove Sauron has the power to smash through your theoretical limitless defense. Because you are basing the Walkers and the NK's ability to withstand more than steel on absolutely nothing but conjecture in an attempt to attribute more than that to their defense.

Again with your same crap. I don't need to prove it cause it has already been stated and proven through the several seasons and books? Have you even watched them?

No of course you have. Else it's just your beliefs and words against my evidence! Mace isn't valyrian=alive NO. PERIOD.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero Now, prove that the Night King can withstand Sauron's mace. And if you say it's because they shatter common steel, I will laugh and point out that Sauron's Mace is not ordinary steel, thus your defense is irrelevant.

Well because if the made doesn't shatter neither will the NKs Sword. The Sword didn't shatter to Valyrian steel why shouldn't to the Have? And also because the Mace Can't kill the NK.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero Except that the mace is not ordinary steel, and there is no reason to assume the blasts of power would not work just as well against them as they do on humans and immortal elves.

Humans and Immortal Elves which are vulnerable to things the WW aren't.
. Irrelevant comparison,

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero Where does it say any? Where does it say ONLY Valyrian Steel and Dragonglass? The assumption is simply this - those are the only weapons shown to work THUS FAR, and does not account for materials from other worlds, nor does it account for the powers enchanted to it, or the powers of the wielder. Now, instead of trying to argue for a position you can't prove, especially since the Night's King has not been seen in combat outside of one Javelin Throw, hows about you let this go? Until season 8 wraps up, this entire debate is conjecture anyway, stop arguing a point you can't prove.

Just as there is no evidence to prove that I can't kill him there is no evidence it can!!! But I honestly don't see why the Mace is any special as to kill him. Thus far still say that those are the only materials that can! You have no evidence that the Mace will make it into the list!

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero You have no way to know that. Nobody does. The only thing you can claim is that he is a better NECROMANCER than a standard Walker. and perhaps a stronger throwing arm.


No! The NK was the first Walker and the king of them all. He is 12000 years old. He is smarter, a better warrior, a stronger and more magical walker. Also all walkers came from him. He came from the Children of the forest. He was made by pure powerful magic. So he is strong! Stronger than the standard WW.


Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero My point is sinking? Ok, stop right there... You never had a point to begin with. I do not need to sink yours since you never had anything bar an assumption based on in universe opinion that does not account for outside of context variables.

Every sword we saw in the show used against the Walkers that shattered (This is what your thesis relies upon) was common castle forged steel (Samwell's sword) or Iron (Thenn Axe), or Brass (Common Wildling and First Men weapons).

If you want to say that the swords Dawn or Lightbringer work against the Walkers, neither of which are valyrian Steel or Dragonglass, then you've already brought your defense undone by your own hand.

First of all! You are the only one who doesn't have a point!

I have shown evidenced. You have defended yourself by claims of Sauron being so powerful and magical! You have based your discussion on your ideas and beliefs rather than on info.

Where did it say that Lifebringer wasn't Valyrian? Who told you that? Your link doesn't say it wasn't Valyrian! Besides in No Book nor Season that is mentioned. I've read them and watch them all.

And once more your points are sinking! Bring actual info and not only your beliefs and your expectations.

If we put it fair the chances of the Mace to be able to kill the NK is 50-50.

Now if he can kill him, that still doesn't mean Sauron will win.

The Night King has the upper hand.

LETS BE FAIR THEN.

As Saber said, am a REASONABLE man.

Lets use math since it seems evidence and logic isn't working. ( Cause Dark's Love for Sauron Blinds Him)

There is NO EVIDENCE TO Say that The Mace will be able to kill the NK. NOR there is EVIDENCE that it CAN'T.

MATHEMATICS would put the probability of the MACE being able to kill the WALKER at 50-50

So the probability of SAURON winning this match is limitted to 50%

Now, once more we need to ask OURSELVES what is the provability of SAURON winning the MATCH IF NK can die to the MACE.

The NK is a good swordsman and a good soldier. He can still defend himself pretty well i say. Also he has super strenght.

Now, i'll give you the benefit of the DOUBT and say that in that case SAURON WINS by a bit.

Chances are 30-70.

BUT. Since it is limitted within the 50% margin of probability of Sauron being able to harm the NK, then the PROBABILTY OF SAURON TO WIN IS OF: approx 40%

EVEN if the PROBABILITY IS 100. Then again the PROBABILITY OF SAURON TO WIN THIS MATCH IS OF 50% (Which is 100% unlikely since the NK is no fool nor no COMMON FOE)

As you can see my fellow friends. THE NK has an advantage!

SO NOW PLEASE GO AND FIX YOUR IRRATIONAL VOTES!!

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Again with your same crap. I don't need to prove it cause it has already been stated and proven through the several seasons and books? Have you even watched them?

No of course you have. Else it's just your beliefs and words against my evidence! Mace isn't valyrian=alive NO. PERIOD.

Your the one that turned this into circular reasoning. I wanted you to point out specifically where in the show or the books it says the Walkers are ONLY vulnerable to those 2 things. And not from a flawed perspective of a character who can be wrong, but from the omnicient narrator.

Hint, you cannot do this, because it does not exist.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Well because if the made doesn't shatter neither will the NKs Sword. The Sword didn't shatter to Valyrian steel why shouldn't to the Have? And also because the Mace Can't kill the NK.

I never said the mace would shatter the ice sword... I said it would be more than capable of killing the Night King.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Humans and Immortal Elves which are vulnerable to things the WW aren't.
. Irrelevant comparison,

Lol, alright then, if you want to go that route, explain to me HOW and WHY the Walkers and NK are only Vulnerable to Valyrian Steel and Dragonglass then. I know why, but lets see if you can keep up and follow a point.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Just as there is no evidence to prove that I can't kill him there is no evidence it can!!! But I honestly don't see why the Mace is any special as to kill him. Thus far still say that those are the only materials that can! You have no evidence that the Mace will make it into the list!

Because the mace has shown demonstrable power, and is wielded by a Maiar, an Ainur who can manipulate their own immortal flame to harness their power. A maiar is essentially the analog of an Angel, or a lesser god.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No! The NK was the first Walker and the king of them all. He is 12000 years old. He is smarter, a better warrior, a stronger and more magical walker. Also all walkers came from him. He came from the Children of the forest. He was made by pure powerful magic. So he is strong! Stronger than the standard WW.

But you cannot demonstrate any of that in any meaningful way. Do you see what I mean about making assumptions? I enjoy the storytelling as much as anyone here. i do, BUT, in a debate where you can make leaps based off of suppositions but you only do it for one side is very unfair and not a reasonable form of debating. Because your slanting the debate in your favor by doing that.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
First of all! You are the only one who doesn't have a point!

I have shown evidenced. You have defended yourself by claims of Sauron being so powerful and magical! You have based your discussion on your ideas and beliefs rather than on info.

Where did it say that Lifebringer wasn't Valyrian? Who told you that? Your link doesn't say it wasn't Valyrian! Besides in No Book nor Season that is mentioned. I've read them and watch them all.

And once more your points are sinking! Bring actual info and not only your beliefs and your expectations.

You made the claim, not I, thus you have to prove the point, not I. I didn't say the night king was invulnerable, you did, and thus you have to prove it is so, I do not have to disprove it by rule of logic - IE: I don't have to prove a negative.

Nothing I've told you has been an assumption. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Sauron Read that if you have not read the books or seen the 6 Jackson films.

Lightbringer was a sword forged thousands of years before Valyria was even a thing. Compared to the first Long Night, the rise of the freehold was relatively recent. You should KNOW that.

I am going to repeat the same to you, with one additional caveat. If you keep repeating the same tired old argument to me without direct proof of your claims, I will not do anything bar accept your concession, because I came here to talk and debate, not have a circular argument with a stubborn newbie who can't seem to grasp the difference between specific defense and blanket damage immunity.

FINALLY I HAVE PROVEN SOMETHING THAT IS UNQUESTIONABLE!!!

UFF. Such a relief. I don't have to PUT TONS of evidence so Dark can UNDERSTAND something.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Your the one that turned this into circular reasoning. I wanted you to point out specifically where in the show or the books it says the Walkers are ONLY vulnerable to those 2 things. And not from a flawed perspective of a character who can be wrong, but from the omnicient narrator.

Hint, you cannot do this, because it does not exist.



I never said the mace would shatter the ice sword... I said it would be more than capable of killing the Night King.



Lol, alright then, if you want to go that route, explain to me HOW and WHY the Walkers and NK are only Vulnerable to Valyrian Steel and Dragonglass then. I know why, but lets see if you can keep up and follow a point.



Because the mace has shown demonstrable power, and is wielded by a Maiar, an Ainur who can manipulate their own immortal flame to harness their power. A maiar is essentially the analog of an Angel, or a lesser god.



But you cannot demonstrate any of that in any meaningful way. Do you see what I mean about making assumptions? I enjoy the storytelling as much as anyone here. i do, BUT, in a debate where you can make leaps based off of suppositions but you only do it for one side is very unfair and not a reasonable form of debating. Because your slanting the debate in your favor by doing that.



You made the claim, not I, thus you have to prove the point, not I. I didn't say the night king was invulnerable, you did, and thus you have to prove it is so, I do not have to disprove it by rule of logic - IE: I don't have to prove a negative.

Nothing I've told you has been an assumption. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Sauron Read that if you have not read the books or seen the 6 Jackson films.

Lightbringer was a sword forged thousands of years before Valyria was even a thing. Compared to the first Long Night, the rise of the freehold was relatively recent. You should KNOW that.

I am going to repeat the same to you, with one additional caveat. If you keep repeating the same tired old argument to me without direct proof of your claims, I will not do anything bar accept your concession, because I came here to talk and debate, not have a circular argument with a stubborn newbie who can't seem to grasp the difference between specific defense and blanket damage immunity.

Read the ABOVE reply. Cause I think i was finally able to CLOSE THIS THREAD!!!

NO MATTER HOW MUCH EVIDENCE I BRING YOU YOU'LL STILL BE AS STUBBORN AS A DEAD GIANT!!

I COULD SITE YOU THE ENTIRE ASOIF AND YOU'D STILL CLAIM MY EVIDENCE UNPROVEN.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Yeah. And how does sauron plan to kill the Night King? Swinging his mace. This isn't rocket science.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Above it maybe. But isn't the same material.

So it SHOULDNT affect the Night King. Doesn't matter if the material is stronger, or makes it stronger, or denser, or thicker, or sharper, or bigger. It isn't Valyrian steel. Quit with the no limits fallacy. It's poor form in debating and has no relevance here. I've already explained why and you keep repeating yourself and this fallacy.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Swinging his mace. This isn't rocket science.

HEY QUANCHI! Oh case closed. Find a way to math out the odds of Sauron Winning. He loses by the way. HEHE.

MAN ILL GET A HEADACHE!

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
HEY QUANCHI! Oh case closed. Find a way to math out the odds of Sauron Winning. He loses by the way. HEHE.

MAN ILL GET A HEADACHE! You just repeat yourself but I've already rebutted this logic. That's the only things that can destroy white walkers in their universe but this doesn't apply to outside universes.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You just repeat yourself but I've already rebutted this logic. That's the only things that can destroy white walkers in their universe but this doesn't apply to outside universes.

Read my MATH reply. IT ANSWERS EVERYTHING!

AND I DON'T HAVE TO BE DEALING WITH YOUR NATIONALITIES.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
LETS BE FAIR THEN.

As Saber said, am a REASONABLE man.

Lets use math since it seems evidence and logic isn't working. ( Cause Dark's Love for Sauron Blinds Him)

There is NO EVIDENCE TO Say that The Mace will be able to kill the NK. NOR there is EVIDENCE that it CAN'T.

MATHEMATICS would put the probability of the MACE being able to kill the WALKER at 50-50

So the probability of SAURON winning this match is limitted to 50%

Now, once more we need to ask OURSELVES what is the provability of SAURON winning the MATCH IF NK can die to the MACE.

The NK is a good swordsman and a good soldier. He can still defend himself pretty well i say. Also he has super strenght.

Now, i'll give you the benefit of the DOUBT and say that in that case SAURON WINS by a bit.

Chances are 30-70.

BUT. Since it is limitted within the 50% margin of probability of Sauron being able to harm the NK, then the PROBABILTY OF SAURON TO WIN IS OF: approx 40%

EVEN if the PROBABILITY IS 100. Then again the PROBABILITY OF SAURON TO WIN THIS MATCH IS OF 50% (Which is 100% unlikely since the NK is no fool nor no COMMON FOE)

As you can see my fellow friends. THE NK has an advantage!

SO NOW PLEASE GO AND FIX YOUR IRRATIONAL VOTES!!

there it is.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Read my MATH reply. IT ANSWERS EVERYTHING!

AND I DON'T HAVE TO BE DEALING WITH YOUR NATIONALITIES.

It is you saying a 50 percent chance without it based off anything evidence based. Baseless claim.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It is you saying a 50 percent chance without it based off anything evidence based. Baseless claim.

READ DAMN IT!

I BROKE MY HEAD TO FINALLY CHECK MATE BOTH OF YOU AND NOW YOU WANT TO BLIND YOURSELVES!

COME ON!!!!!!

I SAID THERE ARE NO PROVES TO BACK UP NONE OF OUR CLAIMS. CHANCES ARE 50 50

Originally posted by quanchi112
It is you saying a 50 percent chance without it based off anything evidence based. Baseless claim.

COMPLETELY VALID.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
If we put it fair the chances of the Mace to be able to kill the NK is 50-50.

Now if he can kill him, that still doesn't mean Sauron will win.

The Night King has the upper hand.

What upper hand? Sauron's feats and numerous abilities both with and without a body are all over the place. The Night King has one combat feat, and one tactical capability, and neither of those outstrip Sauron's capabilities in those same categories.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
LETS BE FAIR THEN.

As Saber said, am a REASONABLE man.

Reasonability is debatable, considering you keep reraising the same point repeatedly in an attempt to assert you are right without providing direct proof.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Lets use math since it seems evidence and logic isn't working. ( Cause Dark's Love for Sauron Blinds Him)

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and ignore this direct insult to me. I will only do this once, so don't push your luck.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
There is NO EVIDENCE TO Say that The Mace will be able to kill the NK. NOR there is EVIDENCE that it CAN'T.

Sure there is. The mace, not being made of common steel, but of metals forged by the Master Crafts Maiar who made the Rings of power, and empowered by that same Maiar with powerful offensive magics, smashes the mace into the thus far featless Night King's face, and he dies. The ability to freeze and shatter common metal does not protect the NK from a blast of magical forces. Nor has any walker shown immunity from injury via other means like concussive forces. Immunity to damage is a fan theory.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
MATHEMATICS would put the probability of the MACE being able to kill the WALKER at 50-50

Umm, where are you getting those numbers?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
So the probability of SAURON winning this match is limitted to 50%

Where are you getting these numbers?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Now, once more we need to ask OURSELVES what is the provability of SAURON winning the MATCH IF NK can die to the MACE.

IF the NK iis struck by the mace, or the sword, in any way, the magical blast alone will destroy him. This is indisputable.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
The NK is a good swordsman and a good soldier. He can still defend himself pretty well i say. Also he has super strenght.

I want someone... Anyone to tell me how the NK is a good solder/warrior/swordsman without so much as one fight under his belt. The one and only combat feat he ever had was a Javelin Toss.... Thats not swordsmanship.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Now, i'll give you the benefit of the DOUBT and say that in that case SAURON WINS by a bit.

Thats not the benefit of the doubt. A benefit of the doubt would be me saying I'd assume the NK has as much combat skill as say Aragorn or Boromir. Yet we have not seen any of that yet.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Chances are 30-70.

Again, numbers without foundation is not mathematics.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
BUT. Since it is limitted within the 50% margin of probability of Sauron being able to harm the NK, then the PROBABILTY OF SAURON TO WIN IS OF: approx 40%

See above

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
EVEN if the PROBABILITY IS 100. Then again the PROBABILITY OF SAURON TO WIN THIS MATCH IS OF 50% (Which is 100% unlikely since the NK is no fool nor no COMMON FOE)

See above

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
As you can see my fellow friends. THE NK has an advantage!

SO NOW PLEASE GO AND FIX YOUR IRRATIONAL VOTES!!

See above. You have eschewed the debate to favor your side based on conjecture.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
READ DAMN IT!

I BROKE MY HEAD TO FINALLY CHECK MATE BOTH OF YOU AND NOW YOU WANT TO BLIND YOURSELVES!

COME ON!!!!!!

I SAID THERE ARE NO PROVES TO BACK UP NONE OF OUR CLAIMS. CHANCES ARE 50 50 What proves this is 50/50 ? Explain yourself.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
COMPLETELY VALID. Based on ?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
What upper hand? Sauron's feats and numerous abilities both with and without a body are all over the place. The Night King has one combat feat, and one tactical capability, and neither of those outstrip Sauron's capabilities in those same categories.



Reasonability is debatable, considering you keep reraising the same point repeatedly in an attempt to assert you are right without providing direct proof.



I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and ignore this direct insult to me. I will only do this once, so don't push your luck.



Sure there is. The mace, not being made of common steel, but of metals forged by the Master Crafts Maiar who made the Rings of power, and empowered by that same Maiar with powerful offensive magics, smashes the mace into the thus far featless Night King's face, and he dies. The ability to freeze and shatter common metal does not protect the NK from a blast of magical forces. Nor has any walker shown immunity from injury via other means like concussive forces. Immunity to damage is a fan theory.



Umm, where are you getting those numbers?



Where are you getting these numbers?



IF the NK iis struck by the mace, or the sword, in any way, the magical blast alone will destroy him. This is indisputable.



I want someone... Anyone to tell me how the NK is a good solder/warrior/swordsman without so much as one fight under his belt. The one and only combat feat he ever had was a Javelin Toss.... Thats not swordsmanship.



Thats not the benefit of the doubt. A benefit of the doubt would be me saying I'd assume the NK has as much combat skill as say Aragorn or Boromir. Yet we have not seen any of that yet.



Again, numbers without foundation is not mathematics.



See above



See above



See above. You have eschewed the debate to fvor your side based on conjecture.

OHH WHERE IS YOUR SENSE OF HUMOUR. This is no fight my friend but a discussion. And yes your love (admiration if the word insults you) for SAURON BLINDS YOUR JUDGEMENT.

AGAIN AGAIN AGAIN.

NO PROVES TO BACK UP YOUR/NOR MINE POINTS. The MACE COULD or COULDN'T kill him. 50-50 THAT IS BASIC MATH. DON'T TRY TO INSTRUCT ME IN MATH.

Again its about probability. The NIGHT KING is no fool nor no normal soldier. I SAY HIS CHANCES OF WINNING IS 30-70. BECAUSE SAURON IS STRONGER.

SO IF WE JOIN BOTH PROBABILITIES THEN THE CHANCES OF SAURON WINNING IS ARROUND 40%. IN WHICH CASE NK HAS AN ADVANTAGE.

SAURON COULD STILL WIN THOUGH. 40% IS STILL A CHANCE.

I NEVER SAID THE NK WILL DEFINETLY WIN.

AGAIN me being RATIONAL....in CONTRAST with others.....

Originally posted by quanchi112
What proves this is 50/50 ? Explain yourself.

NO PROVES ON NEITHER SIDE.

It is a MAYBE SITUATION.

MAYBE'S are 50/50

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
NO PROVES ON NEITHER SIDE.

It is a MAYBE SITUATION.

MAYBE'S are 50/50 Who says it is a maybe ?? You assigning numbers of probability based off a baseless claim. Don't you realize you are backing your claims.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Who says it is a maybe ?? You assigning numbers of probability based off a baseless claim. Don't you realize you are backing your claims.

NO. AM SAYING MY CLAIMS AND YOURS ARE NOT BACKED UP! AM BEING RATIONAL AND HUMBLE BY NOT BACKING MY OWN CLAIM. LEAVE YOUR PRIDE PLEASE.

IT IS A MAYBE SINCE NONE OF OUR CLAIMS IS BACKED. You could be right. I could be right!