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Doctor Strange (MCU)
Silver Surfer (F4 II)
Hulk (2003)
Namor (MCU)

vs

Black Adam (DCEU)

Can they do what the Justice Society couldn't?

Defenders FTW.

Black Adam dies

Surfer alone is most likely enough, but with Strange and Bana Hulk? That's a wrap.

Adam gets his ass stomped.

Strange could get one shotted by a speed blitz. Bana Hulk is not close to Adam in power.

Surfer seals the win for them.

They're all too slow to compete with BA's speed. BA could shove Surfer and board up the Hulk's ass and there's nothing either could do to stop it.

Originally posted by Robtard
They're all too slow to compete with BA's speed. BA could shove Surfer and board up the Hulk's ass and there's nothing either could do to stop it.

Or Surfer could just remain intangible, turn Adam into a rubber dildo, or trap him into his board and there would be nothing BA could do to stop it.

Honestly Surfer solos here.

Surfer does spam intangbilty/ phasing. Hell he was transmuting things just by flying past them

Originally posted by tkitna
Or Surfer could just remain intangible, turn Adam into a rubber dildo, or trap him into his board and there would be nothing BA could do to stop it.

Honestly Surfer solos here.


Are Surfer's powers without limits? I didn't get that impression.

BA is also a magical being, that is something this Surfer has not faced.

Originally posted by Robtard
Are Surfer's powers without limits? I didn't get that impression.

BA is also a magical being, that is something this Surfer has not faced.

No not without limits and its a mystery as to what magic could or could not do to him, but it appeared he was pretty much uber unless the make up of the power cosmic was messed with. Reed figured away, but I very much doubt Adam could.

Would Adams lightning mess with Surfer? Don't know as its magical in make up. He scoffed at Dooms powers though.

Surfer appeared to have to be knocked off his board for his powers to dissipate. Reed found away to disrupt the power cosmic to knock him off his board. Can Adam knock him off his board? If so he destroys him. If not he loses badly.

DA would have to physcially remove the Surfer from the board, he's not recreating what Reed did with his pwn powers.

At first I thought you meant the Netflix Defenders...

Originally posted by Robtard
DA would have to physcially remove the Surfer from the board, he's not recreating what Reed did with his pwn powers.

Yes but could he. Thats the million dollar question.

Adam might not be able to remove Surfer from his board, but Surfer shouldn't be able to hit him if he's in blitz mode, which he appeared to be able to go in and out of at will.

Originally posted by KingD19
Adam might not be able to remove Surfer from his board, but Surfer shouldn't be able to hit him if he's in blitz mode, which he appeared to be able to go in and out of at will.

I have a hard time believing Surfer couldn't affect Adam or the surrounding environment even with his speed. He has cosmic awareness and flies across galaxies finding planets for Galactus. BA seems like small stuff in the larger scope of things.

Just my opinion. Not debating it because it can't be debated.

Originally posted by KingD19
Adam might not be able to remove Surfer from his board, but Surfer shouldn't be able to hit him if he's in blitz mode, which he appeared to be able to go in and out of at will.

Yeah but you have to consider that Hawkman was hitting BA multiple times throughout their fight. Which means that despite his speed blitzing ability, BA can and has been hit by people without super speed.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yeah but you have to consider that Hawkman was hitting BA multiple times throughout their fight. Which means that despite his speed blitzing ability, BA can and has been hit by people without super speed.
That is true, which is why I said he seems to be able to go in and out of it when he feels like it. He wasn't trying to really hurt or kill Hawkman imo, because we saw how badly the demon was beating his ass when he really wanted to take him out. And we saw Adam one-shot Atom Smasher so if he wanted Hawkman out of the fight, he would've been. We've seen both Adam and the Shazamily utilize superspeed when they needed to for the plot.

And when he first woke up, he gets shot with multiple automatic rifles because he let them, but he was also fast enough to snatch one out of the air at the same time. Even when he did his Quicksilver moment, he caught the electrum missile right after and got blown up even when right before that he saw an explosion in slow-mo, as well as his own lightning. So it seems to be a switch in his brain, at least that what it feels like to me. Without PIS, he'd fight like that all the time.

Originally posted by tkitna
I have a hard time believing Surfer couldn't affect Adam or the surrounding environment even with his speed. He has cosmic awareness and flies across galaxies finding planets for Galactus. BA seems like small stuff in the larger scope of things.

Just my opinion. Not debating it because it can't be debated.

I get where you're coming from. His powers of just being around stuff and screwing with it is valid, although not sure to what extent when it comes to Adam who is blessed by the same magic as Shazam and we see he's pretty uber. As for Surfer's speed, he is fast enough to travel across galaxies, but as far as combat/reflex speed I think the most we saw him do was swat away a missile? He's a lot slower in that department.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yeah but you have to consider that Hawkman was hitting BA multiple times throughout their fight. Which means that despite his speed blitzing ability, BA can and has been hit by people without super speed.

Fiction inconsistency and PIS
If BA can statue the environment then it's impossible for anything slow to hit him unless he wants it to.

Originally posted by KingD19
That is true, which is why I said he seems to be able to go in and out of it when he feels like it. He wasn't trying to really hurt or kill Hawkman imo, because we saw how badly the demon was beating his ass when he really wanted to take him out. And we saw Adam one-shot Atom Smasher so if he wanted Hawkman out of the fight, he would've been. We've seen both Adam and the Shazamily utilize superspeed when they needed to for the plot.

And when he first woke up, he gets shot with multiple automatic rifles because he let them, but he was also fast enough to snatch one out of the air at the same time. Even when he did his Quicksilver moment, he caught the electrum missile right after and got blown up even when right before that he saw an explosion in slow-mo, as well as his own lightning. So it seems to be a switch in his brain, at least that what it feels like to me. Without PIS, he'd fight like that all the time.

.

The problem is that there's zero indication that he was taking it easy on Hawkman. I mean, BA was straight-up murdering people as soon as he woke up. He clearly had no qualms about using maximum violence against people. Why would he suddenly take it easy on someone who was clearly capable of hurting him?

Originally posted by FrothByte
The problem is that there's zero indication that he was taking it easy on Hawkman. I mean, BA was straight-up murdering people as soon as he woke up. He clearly had no qualms about using maximum violence against people. Why would he suddenly take it easy on someone who was clearly capable of hurting him?
The indication he was taking it easy on Hawkman was how easily he KO'd Atom Smasher, and how easily Sabbac steamrolled Doctor Fate and Hawkman. He was weaker than Black Adam but he killed Fate with a punch to the gut, after he threw Hawkman through a building and left him unconscious.

Then when he came back, Sabbacc beat him so badly that he was about to rip his wings off and Hawkman could do nothing to stop him until Adam showed up and took over. So if Adam wanted to kill them when they fought, they would've died. He actually respected them as warriors though and wasn't really evil, he just didn't give much of a sh*t at first. Hawkman even confirmed they wanted to stop him from acting on his own, but not kill him. The Khandaqi skateboard kid and his family also softened his outlook on things. He only killed the soldiers who were actively trying to kill him or kill other people.

Originally posted by KingD19
The indication he was taking it easy on Hawkman was how easily he KO'd Atom Smasher, and how easily Sabbac steamrolled Doctor Fate and Hawkman. He was weaker than Black Adam but he killed Fate with a punch to the gut, after he threw Hawkman through a building and left him unconscious.

Then when he came back, Sabbacc beat him so badly that he was about to rip his wings off and Hawkman could do nothing to stop him until Adam showed up and took over. So if Adam wanted to kill them when they fought, they would've died. He actually respected them as warriors though and wasn't really evil, he just didn't give much of a sh*t at first. Hawkman even confirmed they wanted to stop him from acting on his own, but not kill him. The Khandaqi skateboard kid and his family also softened his outlook on things. He only killed the soldiers who were actively trying to kill him or kill other people.

BA was also losing to Sabbac. He needed the help of Hawkman and Dr. Fate to beat Sabbac. Whereas BA was beating Hawkman (although struggling to do so). In the end, they were all able to land hits on BA, even Atom Smasher and Dr. Fate, which goes against the narrative that BA can be completely unhittable due to his speed.

I have yet to see a character be unhittable. The frozen statue premise doesn't hold water. Even Quicksilver and the Flash get hit.

Originally posted by tkitna
I have yet to see a character be unhittable. The frozen statue premise doesn't hold water. Even Quicksilver and the Flash get hit. This is a forum fight, not a movie fight where PIS and contradictions occur.
Characters fight at the best of their ability. They don't forget their powers and neither are their "always on" powers suddenly turned off for the sake of the plot.

Originally posted by h1a8
This is a forum fight, not a movie fight where PIS and contradictions occur.
Characters fight at the best of their ability. They don't forget their powers and neither are their "always on" powers suddenly turned off for the sake of the plot.

In other words, you want to exaggerate a characters' powerset even if it's not supported by onscreen feats.

Originally posted by h1a8
This is a forum fight, not a movie fight where PIS and contradictions occur.
Characters fight at the best of their ability. They don't forget their powers and neither are their "always on" powers suddenly turned off for the sake of the plot.

Ok, then BA stands zero chance of winning here. Surfer stays intangible and turns Adam and the surrounding area into salt.

Originally posted by FrothByte
In other words, you want to exaggerate a characters' powerset even if it's not supported by onscreen feats.

Exactly

Originally posted by John Murdoch
Surfer alone is most likely enough, but with Strange and Bana Hulk? That's a wrap. Bana Hulk would get folded by laundry even if he and Black Adam just traded punches.

Bana Hulk is the most overrated character on this ****ing board.

Surfer does definitely solo though.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Bana Hulk would get folded by laundry even if he and Black Adam just traded punches.

Bana Hulk is the most overrated character on this ****ing board.

Surfer does definitely solo though.

I do agree with you that Bana Hulk vs. Black Adam straight-up equals a win for Black Adam, and it's a moot point with Surfer on team Defenders. I more so made that comment to state that Stephen and Bruce were icing on the cake against Adam.

Originally posted by FrothByte
In other words, you want to exaggerate a characters' powerset even if it's not supported by onscreen feats.

No we do use on screen feats. On screen feats have BA being able to statue the battlefield with absolute ease.

I will never exaggerate what a character CAN DO beyond what they have shown.

Originally posted by h1a8
No we do use on screen feats. On screen feats have BA being able to statue the battlefield with absolute ease.


And do what?

Originally posted by h1a8
No we do use on screen feats. On screen feats have BA being able to statue the battlefield with absolute ease.

I will never exaggerate what a character CAN DO beyond what they have shown.

On screen feats don't showcase BA being able to statue the battlefield indefinitely. On screen feats showcase BA being hit multiple times by beings without superspeed.

In other words, you're asking BA to behave in a manner that is not consistent with his onscreen feats.

Originally posted by h1a8
No we do use on screen feats. On screen feats have BA being able to statue the battlefield with absolute ease.


With normal humans. Can he always do that against super powered characters? If so, Hawkman said to hold his beer.

Originally posted by FrothByte
On screen feats don't showcase BA being able to statue the battlefield indefinitely. On screen feats showcase BA being hit multiple times by beings without superspeed.

In other words, you're asking BA to behave in a manner that is not consistent with his onscreen feats.

Why does he need to statue the battlefield indefinitely? He can just do it long enough to win.
Also There wasn't anything to suggest that he couldn't if he wanted to. It wasn't like it was shown that it taxes him to statue the battlefield. He'll he statued shit without even tryingor being aware that he was.

Originally posted by tkitna
With normal humans. Can he always do that against super powered characters? If so, Hawkman said to hold his beer. Having powers doesn't make you immune to being statued. You have to be significantly faster than a bullet and missiles (with equal perception speed as well).

Originally posted by h1a8
Why does he need to statue the battlefield indefinitely? He can just do it long enough to win.
Also There wasn't anything to suggest that he couldn't if he wanted to. It wasn't like it was shown that it taxes him to statue the battlefield. He'll he statued shit without even tryingor being aware that he was.

So you're claiming that someone moving as fast as they can will be able to maintain it indefinitely? Lol. Like I said, you love to make up feats when they don't exist. If he could have done it then he should have been able to avoid getting hit by Hawkman completely.

In any case your point is moot. If you insist that BA will be blitzing right from the get-go and never let up on his speed then Silver Surfer will be intangible right from the get-go and never go tangible. Either way, BA loses.

Originally posted by FrothByte
So you're claiming that someone moving as fast as they can will be able to maintain it indefinitely? Lol. Like I said, you love to make up feats when they don't exist. If he could have done it then he should have been able to avoid getting hit by Hawkman completely.

In any case your point is moot. If you insist that BA will be blitzing right from the get-go and never let up on his speed then Silver Surfer will be intangible right from the get-go and never go tangible. Either way, BA loses.

Statuing the entire battlefield doesn't require movement speed.
His perception will always be that they are frozen. He can move at any speed in that frozen scenario and do what he wants CASUALLY.

Why does BA have to statue the battlefield indefinitely? He can just statue them long enough to win. Duh. It would probably take less time than what he has already done.

BA has statued the battlefield at the start before, he caught the first bullet shot at him and he didn't know he was about to attacked. Are you arguing character?

And what can Surfer even do to BA, assuming BA just stood there and allow him to strike first? He's a magical being.
And How can Surfer go intangible if he is frozen at the start?
Prove that Surfer can even attack while in phased mode.
How can an intangible being win?

Originally posted by h1a8

His perception will always be that they are frozen.


You don't know that. Throwing a mountain smashing punch while everything is frozen is very different to just standing around watching soldiers.

And doing so indefinitely would also be something on a completely different level.

Again, feats are required. His tussles with Hawkman doesn't help your case.

Originally posted by h1a8

And what can Surfer even do to BA, assuming BA just stood there and allow him to strike first? He's a magical being.
And How can Surfer go intangible if he is frozen at the start?
Prove that Surfer can even attack while in phased mode.
How can an intangible being win?

Him being a magical being doesn't mean anything when it comes to physical harm.

Do you actually believe the Surfer (with cosmic awareness) couldn't react in time to turn intangible? Honestly, I doubt Surfer would even see BA as a threat to him.

And you don't think Surfer can call on the power cosmic while intangible? Why would that be?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
You don't know that. Throwing a mountain smashing punch while everything is frozen is very different to just standing around watching soldiers.

And doing so indefinitely would also be something on a completely different level.

Again, feats are required. His tussles with Hawkman doesn't help your case. He can throw a mountain smashing punch while the battlefield is frozen.

Why must he do so indefinitely? That isn't required here.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
You don't know that. Throwing a mountain smashing punch while everything is frozen is very different to just standing around watching soldiers.

And doing so indefinitely would also be something on a completely different level.

Again, feats are required. His tussles with Hawkman doesn't help your case. He can throw a mountain smashing punch while the battlefield is frozen.

Why must he do so indefinitely? That isn't required here.

Originally posted by tkitna
Him being a magical being doesn't mean anything when it comes to physical harm.

Do you actually believe the Surfer (with cosmic awareness) couldn't react in time to turn intangible? Honestly, I doubt Surfer would even see BA as a threat to him.

And you don't think Surfer can call on the power cosmic while intangible? Why would that be?

Surfer has no feats to show that he can put BA down physically.

And we use feats here. This isn't comic Surfer. Surfer has no reaction feats on the level of reacting to bullets within battlefield starting distance (in which BA is much faster than).

And the problem of intangibility is that one must prove that the intangible being can attack while in that state.

Originally posted by h1a8

Surfer has no feats to show that he can put BA down physically.

And we use feats here. This isn't comic Surfer. Surfer has no reaction feats on the level of reacting to bullets within battlefield starting distance (in which BA is much faster than).

And the problem of intangibility is that one must prove that the intangible being can attack while in that state.

Surfer destroyed an entire army brigade with a wave of his hand. He also has feats of mass matter manipulation. He has more than enough power at his disposal to down BA. I won't even bring up the output he displayed when facing Galactus.

If we're using feats, quit acting like BA can't be touched. He was being tagged throughout the entire film by different characters.

So basically you guys have BA not using his speed here (a gimped version) so that the Defenders can win?

What are Surfer's durability feats? Why can't a simple punch ko him? What are his power output feats? Why will he be able to even harm BA (who was completely immune to armor piercing military tank artillery).

Originally posted by tkitna
Surfer destroyed an entire army brigade with a wave of his hand. He also has feats of mass matter manipulation. He has more than enough power at his disposal to down BA. I won't even bring up the output he displayed when facing Galactus.

If we're using feats, quit acting like BA can't be touched. He was being tagged throughout the entire film by different characters.

He blew up a few trucks with a hard clap of his hands (sending energy blast/wave in that direction). Terrible feat.

Being completely immune to tank artillery canon is significantly greater.

Galactus was a cloud dude with no durability feats. This isn't the comics.

Surfer must prove that matter manipulation is effective on a highly durable magical being (being constantly sustained in power and immortality by magical energy).

You have no clue what he's capable of do you? You've never watched the movie so why are you even posting?

Your giving BA the automatic win because he showed some speed against normal humans and you have to ask what the Surfers capable of. You never cease to be the biggest idiot on this forum.

Originally posted by tkitna
You have no clue what he's capable of do you? You've never watched the movie so why are you even posting?

Your giving BA the automatic win because he showed some speed against normal humans and you have to ask what the Surfers capable of. You never cease to be the biggest idiot on this forum.

I saw the movie. Who hasn't?
We can't speculate on what someone can do. We use what they have shown or been stated to do (credible source).

Using only feats then Surfer can't put BA down nor does he have the perception and movement speed to match BA.

Ah, H1 is H1ing.

-leaves-

Originally posted by h1a8
1)He can throw a mountain smashing punch while the battlefield is frozen.

2)Why must he do so indefinitely? That isn't required here.

1) Proof ?

2) Because pretty sure he will need more than 1 punch against Surfer.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
1) Proof ?

2) Because pretty sure he will need more than 1 punch against Surfer.

1) That was your claim, not mine. I was just repeating what you said.

2) Surfer doesn't really have any good durability feats. We can only speculate that he can take more than one punch.

3) Indefinitely doesn't mean infinite. Any reasonable person can believe that BA can be in speed mode at least for several minutes (far longer than needed) based off how casual he was doing things while in that mode (no evidence of him being taxed at any time).

Originally posted by riv6672
Ah, H1 is H1ing.

-leaves-

Troll post. I'm using onscreen feats. Others are using speculation which isn't based on onscreen feats.
So go ahead and take up for the other trollers.
I'm the only one at this point who isn't trolling.

Originally posted by h1a8
I saw the movie. Who hasn't?
We can't speculate on what someone can do. We use what they have shown or been stated to do (credible source).

Using only feats then Surfer can't put BA down nor does he have the perception and movement speed to match BA.

If you've seen the movie then why are you asking what his power output is? He displayed it. He fought Galactus and the shockwave was bigger than a planet. BA aint living through that.

Originally posted by tkitna
If you've seen the movie then why are you asking what his power output is? He displayed it. He fought Galactus and the shockwave was bigger than a planet. BA aint living through that.

Because
1. That's a normal way of saying prove your case
2. I'm human and it is possible that I forgot something (like others sometimes do here)

Galactus has no durability feats so that feat is unusable.
What Shockwave? What are you talking about?

Originally posted by h1a8
Statuing the entire battlefield doesn't require movement speed.
His perception will always be that they are frozen. He can move at any speed in that frozen scenario and do what he wants CASUALLY.

Why does BA have to statue the battlefield indefinitely? He can just statue them long enough to win. Duh. It would probably take less time than what he has already done.

BA has statued the battlefield at the start before, he caught the first bullet shot at him and he didn't know he was about to attacked. Are you arguing character?

And what can Surfer even do to BA, assuming BA just stood there and allow him to strike first? He's a magical being.
And How can Surfer go intangible if he is frozen at the start?
Prove that Surfer can even attack while in phased mode.
How can an intangible being win?

What can Surfer do to BA? Jeeze dude, you haven't watched the Rise of the Surfer have you? SS has cosmic blasts powerful enough to destroy Galactus. BA has nothing against that.

Originally posted by h1a8
1) That was your claim, not mine. I was just repeating what you said.

2) Surfer doesn't really have any good durability feats. We can only speculate that he can take more than one punch.

3) Indefinitely doesn't mean infinite. Any reasonable person can believe that BA can be in speed mode at least for several minutes (far longer than needed) based off how casual he was doing things while in that mode (no evidence of him being taxed at any time).


1) Because I reasonably assume putting more effort in costs more energy.

2) He can phase through people, absorb missiles with his board, survive an explosion which takes out Cloud Galactus (much larger than the Earth).

3) I really only mean for the length of a fight, or to beat a worthy opponent. We saw him against Hawkman, so the evidence is on my side.


Originally posted by h1a8

Galactus has no durability feats so that feat is unusable.

Originally posted by FrothByte
What can Surfer do to BA? Jeeze dude, you haven't watched the Rise of the Surfer have you? SS has cosmic blasts powerful enough to destroy Galactus. BA has nothing against that.

Galactus has no durability feats. He was just a cloud.
Any feats against IT doesn't prove anything. This is not the comic version of Galactus. Surfer died in the process. He's not going to purposely kill himself here, assuming that will even affect BA.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
1) Because I reasonably assume putting more effort in costs more energy.

2) He can phase through people, absorb missiles with his board, survive an explosion which takes out Cloud Galactus (much larger than the Earth).

3) I really only mean for the length of a fight, or to beat a worthy opponent. We saw him against Hawkman, so the evidence is on my side.


2. Galactus has no durability feats. This is not comic Galactus. Surfer killed himself to achieve that. He's not going to kill himself here (assuming it would affect BA)

3. We know that BA can statue the battlefield. He's immensely strong and durable and has powerful lightning attacks. He fights to the best of his ability here (not the worst). Even if BA stood there and let Surfer attack then Surfer has no feats to prove that he can affect someone that is completely immune to Tank artillery and someone that is an immortal magical being


Originally posted by FrothByte
What can Surfer do to BA? Jeeze dude, you haven't watched the Rise of the Surfer have you? SS has cosmic blasts powerful enough to destroy Galactus. BA has nothing against that.

Galactus has no durability feats. He was just a cloud.
Any feats against IT doesn't prove anything. This is not the comic version of Galactus. Surfer died in the process. He's not going to purposely kill himself here, assuming that will even affect BA.

Galactus has no durability feats? Good lord, he was probably 20x's the size of the earth and a weakened Surfer (just brought Sue back to life) destroyed him. Surfers floating body at the end of the movie indicates he wasn't actually killed.

This nonsense with you has to stop.

Originally posted by tkitna
Galactus has no durability feats? Good lord, he was probably 20x's the size of the earth and a weakened Surfer (just brought Sue back to life) destroyed him. Surfers floating body at the end of the movie indicates he wasn't actually killed.

This nonsense with you has to stop.

He clearly states "This is the End for Us Both."
He wasn't seen alive; therefore by writer's intent, he was dead.
Size doesn't matter if you have no durability feats and are a cloud.

Originally posted by h1a8
He clearly states "This is the End for Us Both."
He wasn't seen alive; therefore by writer's intent, he was dead.
Size doesn't matter if you have no durability feats and are a cloud.

You really don't have a clue do you?

He opened his eye and his board was seen going to him. He was alive.

Yeah, Galactus could have been taken care of by anybody with a Hoover I guess.

You are impossible.

Originally posted by tkitna
You really don't have a clue do you?

He opened his eye and his board was seen going to him. He was alive.

Yeah, Galactus could have been taken care of by anybody with a Hoover I guess.

You are impossible.

We don't know exactly what Surfer did. Probably used Galactus kryptonite for all we know.
We can only speculate whether such attack can work on BA or not.
It was a cloud.

Also it is very unlikely that Surfer would even do such an attack, especially believing he's not going to survive and in which it kills his teammates as well.

I still think BA can defeat Surfer via strength, speed, durability and magic, but making Surfer out to be some low-level chump and film Galactus as little more than a creampuff, when he/it is clearly a planet buster is the stuff of retards. Carry on.

Originally posted by Robtard
I still think BA can defeat Surfer via strength, speed, durability and magic, but making Surfer out to be some low-level chump and film Galactus as little more than a creampuff, when he/it is clearly a planet buster is the stuff of retards. Carry on.

No doubt that Galactus can bust a planet (through draining it). But what does that say about his weaknesses or resistance against certain attacks?
What if Surfer created a runaway chain effect in IT? We don't exactly know what Surfer particularly did to IT.
All we can do is speculate. But you are correct. It's not necessarily a creampuff cloud of smoke.

With that said

Surfer would most likely try to blast BA like he did Doom.

It amazed me how bias some are here. Have Surfer do the same kamikaze attack on BA from the very start (possible killing him and his teammates) just because we both state that BA will use his speed here (how is that unreasonable?). Then they change the goalposts and state he won't use speed indefinitely without proving that HE NEEDS TO. It's not like he needs to be in speed mode for an hour in his mind (which equates to less than a minute in the real world). He probably needs a few minutes in his perceived time (which equates to a few seconds tops in the real world).

Surfer doesn't have any good durability feats (forum rules is that we use feats to establish attributes like durability strength speed etc). But he definitely has superhuman durability.

Surfer had to knock a missile away and absorb another in his board. Wouldn't that hint from the writer that Surfer will be significantly affected by them if they actually explodes on him? This is common sense. If the writer believed that missiles will do nothing to him then the writer would have shown it (and not have Surfer avoid them).

2nd, in reality Surfer will fight BA flying around blasting or clapping his hands like he's shown to do when in a fight against corporeal beings. That's if BA allows him to and doesn't statue him right away.

Yet the same people think it's out of character for BA to statue the battlefield when he has statued situations multiple times throughout the movie against humans and superhuman alike. BA statuted the first bullet shot at him (he caught it).

It's not like Surfer can one shot BA. At best BA allows Surfer to hit him. Then decides what to do from there.

People use fiction inconsistency (writer make character forget his powers at particular times for the sake of the plot). This is called PIS, especially because it is illogical and was only done to help the story procede. Wouldn't be much of a movie if BA statued the battlefield in EVERY SCENE. There would be absolutely no adversity in the movie. It would be a complete domination from beginning to end.

It's like have Spider-Man dodge machine gun fire EASILY 100% of the time (thousands of bullets mind you) but get randomly tagged by punches moving magnitudes slower for the story to precede.

That's why forum fights are different. We don't use PIS as evidence (that's a form of trolling).

Originally posted by h1a8
No doubt that Galactus can bust a planet (through draining it). But what does that say about his weaknesses or resistance against certain attacks?
What if Surfer created a runaway chain effect in IT? We don't exactly know what Surfer particularly did to IT.
All we can do is speculate. But you are correct. It's not necessarily a creampuff cloud of smoke.

With that said

Surfer would most likely try to blast BA like he did Doom.

It amazed me how bias some are here. Have Surfer do the same kamikaze attack on BA from the very start (possible killing him and his teammates) just because we both state that BA will use his speed here (how is that unreasonable?). Then they change the goalposts and state he won't use speed indefinitely without proving that HE NEEDS TO. It's not like he needs to be in speed mode for an hour in his mind (which equates to less than a minute in the real world). He probably needs a few minutes in his perceived time (which equates to a few seconds tops in the real world).

Surfer doesn't have any good durability feats (forum rules is that we use feats to establish attributes like durability strength speed etc). But he definitely has superhuman durability.

Surfer had to knock a missile away and absorb another in his board. Wouldn't that hint from the writer that Surfer will be significantly affected by them if they actually explodes on him? This is common sense. If the writer believed that missiles will do nothing to him then the writer would have shown it (and not have Surfer avoid them).

2nd, in reality Surfer will fight BA flying around blasting or clapping his hands like he's shown to do when in a fight against corporeal beings. That's if BA allows him to and doesn't statue him right away.

Yet the same people think it's out of character for BA to statue the battlefield when he has statued situations multiple times throughout the movie against humans and superhuman alike. BA statuted the first bullet shot at him (he caught it).

It's not like Surfer can one shot BA. At best BA allows Surfer to hit him. Then decides what to do from there.

People use fiction inconsistency (writer make character forget his powers at particular times for the sake of the plot). This is called PIS, especially because it is illogical and was only done to help the story procede. Wouldn't be much of a movie if BA statued the battlefield in EVERY SCENE. There would be absolutely no adversity in the movie. It would be a complete domination from beginning to end.

It's like have Spider-Man dodge machine gun fire EASILY 100% of the time (thousands of bullets mind you) but get randomly tagged by punches moving magnitudes slower for the story to precede.

That's why forum fights are different. We don't use PIS as evidence (that's a form of trolling).

Surfer didn't have to blast Doom. He just returned Doom's blast back at him.

With all you said, why is it your assumption that Surfer would just blast at BA? If there's no restrictions here, why wouldn't he just turn BA into a dog turd? Before saying something like, how do you know he can affect a magical character like that,,,,well how do you know BA can statue Surfer?

Surfer just appears to be so much more than a flying brick that I can't possibly give BA a win in any scenario.

Originally posted by h1a8


3. We know that BA can statue the battlefield. He's immensely strong and durable and has powerful lightning attacks.


Yes but you don't know how well he can combine those abilities with his speed.

All I'm saying.

His fights against Hawkman don't help your case.


Originally posted by h1a8


It amazed me how bias some are here.


It's nothing to do with Bias, it's about backing up your claims which you've always been terrible at.

If your argument was more akin to:

"IF BA's abilities as shown in the film can combine Akin to the way Superman fights, then he could likely dodge Surfer all day until he lands the hits he requires... "

then no one would have an issue, but then you wouldn't be you I guess.

Originally posted by tkitna
Surfer didn't have to blast Doom. He just returned Doom's blast back at him.

With all you said, why is it your assumption that Surfer would just blast at BA? If there's no restrictions here, why wouldn't he just turn BA into a dog turd? Before saying something like, how do you know he can affect a magical character like that,,,,well how do you know BA can statue Surfer?

Surfer just appears to be so much more than a flying brick that I can't possibly give BA a win in any scenario.

Surfer has no feats of turning anyone into a turd, let alone a magical durable being.

Surfer didn't return Doom's own energy back at him. Surfer shot him with Surfer's own energy.

Surfer will blast and clap hands because that's all he has done in the movie.

Surfer has no battle speed feats (moving from rest and perceiving in relation to a bullet or faster).

Surfer can be koed you know. Why couldn't BA ko him faster than Surfer can act?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yes but you don't know how well he can combine those abilities with his speed.

All I'm saying.

His fights against Hawkman don't help your case.





It's nothing to do with Bias, it's about backing up your claims which you've always been terrible at.

If your argument was more akin to:

"IF BA's abilities as shown in the film can combine Akin to the way Superman fights, then he could likely dodge Surfer all day until he lands the hits he requires... "

then no one would have an issue, but then you wouldn't be you I guess.

Strength Durability and Perception speed IS ALWAYS On. Speed only increases his striking power (not take away from it). You are talking crazy now.

BA doesn't need to dodge Surfer. He can attack him first (before Surfer can make an action) or just sit there and let Surfer attack him.

Originally posted by h1a8
Strength Durability and Perception speed IS ALWAYS On. Speed only increases his striking power (not take away from it). You are talking crazy now.

BA doesn't need to dodge Surfer. He can attack him first (before Surfer can make an action) or just sit there and let Surfer attack him.

If perception speed is always on then how did BA get hit by Hawkman or Dr. Fate?

Originally posted by FrothByte
If perception speed is always on then how did BA get hit by Hawkman or Dr. Fate?

PIS

Perception speed is always on in a forum fight. Is that better?

Originally posted by h1a8


That's why forum fights are different. We don't use PIS as evidence (that's a form of trolling).

Correct. Yet you do if it fits your argument in any given match.

Originally posted by h1a8
PIS

Perception speed is always on in a forum fight. Is that better?

It's not PIS if it's something shown that's constant. In that case it becomes the standard and PIS would be what is the exception. In BA's case, he got hit by pretty much every superpowered opponent he faced.

Originally posted by FrothByte
It's not PIS if it's something shown that's constant. In that case it becomes the standard and PIS would be what is the exception. In BA's case, he got hit by pretty much every superpowered opponent he faced.

PIS has nothing to do with the amount of times, it's the reason why. It was established that BA can perceive time far faster than a human (statue the battlefield). So the times he didn't was not because he wasn't able to but because of the plot (hence PLOT INDUCED STUPITY).

Now if your argument is that BA WON'T EVER statue the battlefield (when he has shown to have that capability multiple times) only because of the few times he was hit then you are clearly trolling.

BA doesn't have to statue the battlefield for a long time. As long as he already shown.

Plus you are ignoring the argument that Surfer won't affect BA significantly.

Originally posted by h1a8
PIS has nothing to do with the amount of times, it's the reason why. It was established that BA can perceive time far faster than a human (statue the battlefield). So the times he didn't was not because he wasn't able to but because of the plot (hence PLOT INDUCED STUPITY).

Now if your argument is that BA WON'T EVER statue the battlefield (when he has shown to have that capability multiple times) only because of the few times he was hit then you are clearly trolling.

BA doesn't have to statue the battlefield for a long time. As long as he already shown.

Plus you are ignoring the argument that Surfer won't affect BA significantly.

In other words, you want BA to fight in a way that was never supported in the movie. Otherwise, name me a single time he statues a superpowered opponent so well that his opponent was completely unable to land hits on him despite trying.

Taking only top-end feats into account is PIS too.

Originally posted by h1a8
PIS

Perception speed is always on in a forum fight. Is that better?


That's a cop out. We go by ON SCREEN FEATS ONLY.

You're asking us to ignore consistent on screen showings in favour of the way you IMAGINE BA would fight against the same characters he's already fought On Screen.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
That's a cop out. We go by ON SCREEN FEATS ONLY.

You're asking us to ignore consistent on screen showings in favour of the way you IMAGINE BA would fight against the same characters he's already fought On Screen.

Now you are trolling. It was shown multiple times that BA can and has statued the battlefield. There is nothing consistent about BA getting tagged and not using speed. Therefore you are lying.

So you are asking us to ignore his multiple speed feats and assume that he will not be operating in speed mode in this fight.

Lol
I remember you arguing one off feats for Thor when he has shown the opposite far more consistently (99 to 1). It's easy to expose your troll double standard tactics.

So I'll ask a simple question. Will BA use his speed and perceptions to try to win in this fight?

Originally posted by FrothByte
In other words, you want BA to fight in a way that was never supported in the movie. Otherwise, name me a single time he statues a superpowered opponent so well that his opponent was completely unable to land hits on him despite trying.

What? Are you on drugs?
I'm arguing that BA will fight as he was shown in the movie (statue the battlefield, using speed, using lightning, etc). Although it is idiotic to suggest that BA can't statue a superhuman (that doesn't possess any superspeed) only because they are a superhuman (and not because they possess superspeed himself.
He statued Hawkman multiple times when fighting him.

Are you suggesting that BA will not use any speed or perceptions (although he has done so multiple times) in this or any forum fight?

Originally posted by h1a8
What? Are you on drugs?
I'm arguing that BA will fight as he was shown in the movie (statue the battlefield, using speed, using lightning, etc). Although it is idiotic to suggest that BA can't statue a superhuman (that doesn't possess any superspeed) only because they are a superhuman (and not because they possess superspeed himself.
He statued Hawkman multiple times when fighting him.

Are you suggesting that BA will not use any speed or perceptions (although he has done so multiple times) in this or any forum fight?

I'm saying BA gets hit by superhumans despite his superspeed. Are you going to insist that this wasn't true as per movie feats?

Originally posted by FrothByte
I'm saying BA gets hit by superhumans despite his superspeed. Are you going to insist that this wasn't true as per movie feats?

In a movie with plot induced stupidity he has gotten hit yes.
But he can't get hit if he IS USING SPEED.

So you can argue that he won't use speed or that he will. Which is it?

Maybe BA is just stupid and it has nothing to do with the plot. Maybe he just kinda forgot about those powers in the heat of the moment

Maybe BA only got hit by people he knew wouldn't defeat him (like Hawkman).

If Surfer is as big a threat as you all say, then he won't let himself get hit by Surfer.

Good debate, guys.

Originally posted by h1a8
In a movie with plot induced stupidity he has gotten hit yes.
But he can't get hit if he IS USING SPEED.

So you can argue that he won't use speed or that he will. Which is it?

In other words, you admit that there's no feats in the movie that show your scenario.

Well here is the thought process:

1. Does BA have superspeed, yes/no?
2. If no, let's end this now. But he does, as we saw in the film. So does he get hit by slower beings, y/n?
3. If no, let's end this now. But he does, as we saw in the film. Many times, in fact. So does he WANT to be hit, y/n?
4. If no, then it's PIS. If it's yes, then we're saying BA either loves the pain, or doesn't take his opponents seriously.

Ultimately, despite having superspeed, BA gets tagged by slower opponents. Either he wants to get hit, or it's PIS. That's all.

Originally posted by h1a8
Now you are trolling.

Lol

Originally posted by h1a8
It was shown multiple times that BA can and has statued the battlefield.

Not when fighting superhuman beings i.e. when there is no need to exert any serious effort.

Originally posted by h1a8
There is nothing consistent about BA getting tagged and not using speed. Therefore you are lying.

Have no idea what you're saying here. Bring feats. Tell me why I shouldn't go by his on screen feats of getting tagged by Hawkman and Dr. Fate. Because as far as I can tell, they don't count because you don't like the apparent inconsistency there.

Originally posted by h1a8
So you are asking us to ignore his multiple speed feats and assume that he will not be operating in speed mode in this fight.


No, are you not capable of understanding simple arguments. I want feats of him exerting serious effort whilst operating at light speed (or however fast he was when battling human soldiers).

Originally posted by h1a8
Lol
I remember you arguing one off feats for Thor when he has shown the opposite far more consistently (99 to 1). It's easy to expose your troll double standard tactics.

Dude it's not my fault your arguments suck. There's a reason you're not convincing anyone.


Originally posted by h1a8
So I'll ask a simple question. Will BA use his speed and perceptions to try to win in this fight?

Sure. But I have no idea to the limits of his speed and perceptions.

Originally posted by h1a8
In a movie with plot induced stupidity he has gotten hit yes.



So your argument is "it was a shit movie, ergo the fights don't count".

Good one.

Well, tbf, we all must agree with the central premise i.e. it was a shit movie, lol.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Lol



Not when fighting superhuman beings i.e. when there is no need to exert any serious effort.
Lol. So although BA used speed on superhuman beings. You are suggesting that he will choose NOT to do this in a forum fight (i.e. BA will never use speed in a forum fight against any superhuman).

Is this correct?


Are you suggesting that BA won't use speed in a forum fight? Yes or No question

Now you are changing the goalposts. And you are suggesting that you already asked for this(when in reality this is your first time).

So you are arguing that BA will choose not to exert serious effort while he is using speed, even if he knows that he has to. Lmao. Plus you are begging the question that BA has to exert most of his might in order to win without proof.

If BA just touches any of these characters traveling at great speed then they will either die or be seriously injured. You do know what kinetic energy is right? And how hard/durable BA is?

And lastly, lmao for you thinking that BA has to punch slow in order to punch harder.

The limit is what was shown in the movie. Glad you agree he will use speed and perceptions here. End of debate.

Originally posted by FrothByte
In other words, you admit that there's no feats in the movie that show your scenario.
He has shown speed many times. That is my scenario.
So will BA fight with speed in this fight or not? Simple question. Then we can go from there.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well here is the thought process:

1. Does BA have superspeed, yes/no?
2. If no, let's end this now. But he does, as we saw in the film. So does he get hit by slower beings, y/n?
3. If no, let's end this now. But he does, as we saw in the film. Many times, in fact. So does he WANT to be hit, y/n?
4. If no, then it's PIS. If it's yes, then we're saying BA either loves the pain, or doesn't take his opponents seriously.

Ultimately, despite having superspeed, BA gets tagged by slower opponents. Either he wants to get hit, or it's PIS. That's all.

That's like saying that because Muhammad Ali has reflexes so fast that he's able to dodge blows from lesser boxers, we can therefore conclude that he'll be able to always dodge blows even from high-end boxers.

That's dumb. Even when other boxers aren't as fast as him, they'll still eventually tag him provided they're skilled enough and fight with enough intensity.

In a fight, you don't need to be as fast as your opponent to hit them. You just need to be fast enough, coupled with good timing and technique.

Originally posted by h1a8

He has shown speed many times. That is my scenario.
So will BA fight with speed in this fight or not? Simple question. Then we can go from there.

As BA was hit by every superhuman. the movie and feats suggest no.

Originally posted by h1a8


He has shown speed many times. That is my scenario.
So will BA fight with speed in this fight or not? Simple question. Then we can go from there.

Unfortunately for you, he's never shown superspeed to such a degree that he was immune to other superhumans tagging him multiple times.

So, is he fighting superhumans in this match? Simple question. Then we can go from there.

Originally posted by FrothByte
That's like saying that because Muhammad Ali has reflexes so fast that he's able to dodge blows from lesser boxers, we can therefore conclude that he'll be able to always dodge blows even from high-end boxers.

That's dumb. Even when other boxers aren't as fast as him, they'll still eventually tag him provided they're skilled enough and fight with enough intensity.

In a fight, you don't need to be as fast as your opponent to hit them. You just need to be fast enough, coupled with good timing and technique.

Because they're all on the same level, relatively - they're all human level in speed. Sure, Ali is faster, but he's still human in speed. There are levels to this, anyway.

The original question was, is Surfer on BAs level in terms of speed? If yes, what scene is this based on?

You're arguing that he's on... Hawkman's level of speed, or Fate's. But that's using WWE or exhibition boxing matches (i.e. scripted fights) as evidence for a real fight.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Unfortunately for you, he's never shown superspeed to such a degree that he was immune to other superhumans tagging him multiple times.

So, is he fighting superhumans in this match? Simple question. Then we can go from there. please answer the question

Surfer had no physical contact fights so nobody knows. He has powers though that are so vast and versatile that physical combat shouldn't even be in the equation for him.

His speed of flying is so great you would think he has superhuman reflexes and reactions, but thats only assumption. He did allow Torch to chase him for a little bit before putting the kabosh on him, and then in the next instance he is flying into space within seconds, so there's that.

I still think Surfer is way above BA, but who knows. Everybody has an opinion.

Originally posted by h1a8
please answer the question

The movie answered your question already. BA has never statued a superhuman so why do you think he would be able to statue Surfer?

Originally posted by tkitna
The movie answered your question already. BA has never statued a superhuman so why do you think he would be able to statue Surfer?

Why didn't he statue superhumans (of which there are varying levels of superhuman speed, but that's a separate question)?

Originally posted by tkitna
Surfer had no physical contact fights so nobody knows. He has powers though that are so vast and versatile that physical combat shouldn't even be in the equation for him.

His speed of flying is so great you would think he has superhuman reflexes and reactions, but thats only assumption. He did allow Torch to chase him for a little bit before putting the kabosh on him, and then in the next instance he is flying into space within seconds, so there's that.

I still think Surfer is way above BA, but who knows. Everybody has an opinion. We use feats to prove what someone can do, but not speculation. Without durability feats then Surfer is as durable as he shown (nothing more). Same goes with speed and reaction feats.
I other words, BA can one two shot him.

Originally posted by tkitna
The movie answered your question already. BA has never statued a superhuman so why do you think he would be able to statue Surfer?

So your answer is that BA will never use speed against a superhuman in a forum fight.
Correct?

Originally posted by h1a8
So your answer is that BA will never use speed against a superhuman in a forum fight.
Correct?

The assertion is that even when he uses his superspeed, he'll still get tagged by superhuman opponents just as it was shown in his movie.

Unless you want to claim that this was not shown in the movie?

Originally posted by FrothByte
The assertion is that even when he uses his superspeed, he'll still get tagged by superhuman opponents just as it was shown in his movie.

Unless you want to claim that this was not shown in the movie?
So you are now saying that he will use speed in a forum fight but will get tagged anyway.
I.e. either he will see the attack clearly and choose to get hit
or
he isn't fast enough to see the attack (he will not use his speed).

Is this the correct argument that you are using?

Originally posted by h1a8
So you are now saying that he will use speed in a forum fight but will get tagged anyway.
I.e. either he will see the attack clearly and choose to get hit
or
he isn't fast enough to see the attack (he will not use his speed).

Is this the correct argument that you are using?

The argument all along is that he will use superspeed the same way as been shown in the movies: that he can score a number of hits against superhuman opponents due to his speed but is still susceptible to getting hit himself.

It's the same argument that everyone has been making. Playing dumb doesn't change the fact that you have no counteraegument to this.

Originally posted by FrothByte
The argument all along is that he will use superspeed the same way as been shown in the movies: that he can score a number of hits against superhuman opponents due to his speed but is still susceptible to getting hit himself.

It's the same argument that everyone has been making. Playing dumb doesn't change the fact that you have no counteraegument to this.


But that's like using a scripted fight (like a WWE match) and using it as evidence for a street/MMA cage fight......

Originally posted by h1a8
We use feats to prove what someone can do, but not speculation. Without durability feats then Surfer is as durable as he shown (nothing more). Same goes with speed and reaction feats.
I other words, BA can one two shot him.

We use feats and not speculation. How is BA one or two shotting a character with matter manipulation, phasing abilities, and power output unlike anything BA has ever encountered before while BA has never statued a superhuman?

Your being a hypocrite.

Originally posted by tkitna
We use feats and not speculation. How is BA one or two shotting a character with matter manipulation, phasing abilities, and power output unlike anything BA has ever encountered before while BA has never statued a superhuman?

Your being a hypocrite.

Then it turns round and round in a circular argument:

How does Surfer do any of his powers against someone as fast as BA?

Your answer would be that based on the film, BA isn't that fast against superhumans, only humans/bullets - which makes zero sense.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Then it turns round and round in a circular argument:

How does Surfer do any of his powers against someone as fast as BA?

Your answer would be that based on the film, BA isn't that fast against superhumans, only humans/bullets - which makes zero sense.

If BA was so fast, why didn't he just make short work out of the superhumans he was fighting against? If he wasn't trying to hurt them then why didn't he just avoid their attempts at hitting him altogether? You can't tell me he enjoyed getting hit. If it appeared BA was holding back, so be it, but is anybody to believe Surfer was going all out either? The only time he was shown to let loose was against Galactus (who H1 states was a cloud and had no substance) which caused a shockwave that was larger than the earth. I'll add that Surfer wasn't even at full strength during that exchange too.

Maybe superhumans are just that,,,,superhuman, and have reflexes and reaction times accordingly.

Originally posted by tkitna
If BA was so fast, why didn't he just make short work out of the superhumans he was fighting against? If he wasn't trying to hurt them then why didn't he just avoid their attempts at hitting him altogether? You can't tell me he enjoyed getting hit. If it appeared BA was holding back, so be it, but is anybody to believe Surfer was going all out either? The only time he was shown to let loose was against Galactus (who H1 states was a cloud and had no substance) which caused a shockwave that was larger than the earth. I'll add that Surfer wasn't even at full strength during that exchange too.

Maybe superhumans are just that,,,,superhuman, and have reflexes and reaction times accordingly.

Because it was scripted that he gets hit, to show stakes in the movie. Like an exhibition match, or a WWE fight, vs a street fight or a cage fight.

That's why he didn't make short work of the superhuman opponents.

Edit: and even then - if we wanted to go down that rabbit hole, it still means Hawkman/Fate are faster than Surfer, in that case, as they have feats (tagging the superfast, faster than bullets BA) vs Surfer who has.....no speed feats.

Originally posted by FrothByte
The argument all along is that he will use superspeed the same way as been shown in the movies: that he can score a number of hits against superhuman opponents due to his speed but is still susceptible to getting hit himself.

It's the same argument that everyone has been making. Playing dumb doesn't change the fact that you have no counteraegument to this.

Ok when he gets hit what will be the reason?
The attack was too fast for him to respond and react?
Or
He chose to get hit?
Or because of the script (plot induced?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because it was scripted that he gets hit, to show stakes in the movie. Like an exhibition match, or a WWE fight, vs a street fight or a cage fight.

That's why he didn't make short work of the superhuman opponents.

Edit: and even then - if we wanted to go down that rabbit hole, it still means Hawkman/Fate are faster than Surfer, in that case, as they have feats (tagging the superfast, faster than bullets BA) vs Surfer who has.....no speed feats.

And Surfers movie wasn't scripted either?

If we want to go down rabbit holes, Surfer more than likely could have just busted the entire planet since he destroyed a cosmic entity at least 20 times the size of it. BA would be nothing more than a dog pecker gnat in the scope of things considered.

You just can't give one character the benefit of the doubt without doing so to the other.

Originally posted by tkitna
And Surfers movie wasn't scripted either?

If we want to go down rabbit holes, Surfer more than likely could have just busted the entire planet since he destroyed a cosmic entity at least 20 times the size of it. BA would be nothing more than a dog pecker gnat in the scope of things considered.

You just can't give one character the benefit of the doubt without doing so to the other.

Agreed, Surfer was also scripted.

Fully agree he has the capability to do all that you say. I am NOT giving one side the benefit of the doubt over the other

The problem here is that without speed showings, he will never get the chance to. Agreed, he has the planet busting capability - just like BA has his superspeed capability, which means he punches Surfer several times in the first second.

And without durability showings, we can't just assume he's able to take said punches.

Originally posted by h1a8
Ok when he gets hit what will be the reason?
The attack was too fast for him to respond and react?
Or
He chose to get hit?
Or because of the script (plot induced?

Most likely due to one or more of these more realistic reasons:
1. He didn't see the hit coming
2. He couldn't react to each and every single hit
3. He was caught off balance and off guard

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But that's like using a scripted fight (like a WWE match) and using it as evidence for a street/MMA cage fight......

No, no it isn't. It's like using a scripted fight (like a WWE match) as evidence for another scripted fight (like another WWE match).

I mean, we're discussing a fictional fight between fictional characters but for some reason you have issues using fictional feats from their fictional movies?

That's some pretty hardcore hypocrisy there bro.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Agreed, Surfer was also scripted.

Fully agree he has the capability to do all that you say. I am NOT giving one side the benefit of the doubt over the other

The problem here is that without speed showings, he will never get the chance to. Agreed, he has the planet busting capability - just like BA has his superspeed capability, which means he punches Surfer several times in the first second.

And without durability showings, we can't just assume he's able to take said punches.

My only issue is I don't believe BA can hit him several times before he can react. Phasing takes but a thought. Even when BA was beating up on the soldiers with his speed there was still movement.

If BA could hit him several times than yeah he more than likely wins or I don't know what would happen. I haven't watched that craptastic four movie in such a long time, but did the surfer get physically knocked off of his board in it? I honestly can't remember. One more thing is the Surfer flies through galaxies to find planets. How durable does one need to be to do that?

Originally posted by FrothByte
No, no it isn't. It's like using a scripted fight (like a WWE match) as evidence for another scripted fight (like another WWE match).

I mean, we're discussing a fictional fight between fictional characters but for some reason you have issues using fictional feats from their fictional movies?

That's some pretty hardcore hypocrisy there bro.

My point wasn't that we use fictional feats or whatever.

I am saying a forum fight isn't scripted like a movie is scripted, or like a WWE match is scripted. No one is saying 'then BA throws a punch, which Surfer dodges, then Surfer fires a blast, then' etc etc, whilst basing this sequence on a script where the fight needs to look sexy and last a good while.

Originally posted by tkitna
My only issue is I don't believe BA can hit him several times before he can react. Phasing takes but a thought. Even when BA was beating up on the soldiers with his speed there was still movement.

If BA could hit him several times than yeah he more than likely wins or I don't know what would happen. I haven't watched that craptastic four movie in such a long time, but did the surfer get physically knocked off of his board in it? I honestly can't remember. One more thing is the Surfer flies through galaxies to find planets. How durable does one need to be to do that?
Even if it takes but a thought.....it's like a guy who knows 637 different languages, who was trained by Bruce Lee and Muhammad Ali, who knows how to drive every vehicle ever made, armed with an unbreakable super sharp sword etc etc....

And I fire a bullet at him.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
My point wasn't that we use fictional feats or whatever.

I am saying a forum fight isn't scripted like a movie is scripted, or like a WWE match is scripted. No one is saying 'then BA throws a punch, which Surfer dodges, then Surfer fires a blast, then' etc etc, whilst basing this sequence on a script where the fight needs to look sexy and last a good while.


A forum fight might not be scripted but we're still basing it off of the movies and shows they came from. You can't disregard their movie feats due to them being scripted, because in doing so the entire character we're talking about ceases to exist. Or they cease to have any feats at all.

What then do we have left objectively argue with? Our own personal interpretation of what a user can do?

Basing what they can or can't do specifically on how they were shown in the movies/shows is the only objective way to do it.

Sad part is Its pretty easy to show BA as pretty OP based on his on screen feats, but arguments for him here are just terrible.

But hey if we want to just go by power set then Surfer goes Intangible through any hits directed at him and hits BA with power enough to drill through the planet. Hes even been shown moving faster tbh.

Originally posted by FrothByte
A forum fight might not be scripted but we're still basing it off of the movies and shows they came from. You can't disregard their movie feats due to them being scripted, because in doing so the entire character we're talking about ceases to exist. Or they cease to have any feats at all.

What then do we have left objectively argue with? Our own personal interpretation of what a user can do?

Basing what they can or can't do specifically on how they were shown in the movies/shows is the only objective way to do it.


It doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine a character did something because of their character vs what the script called for.
Do you really think BA is dumb enough not to use his speed, especially when he was shown using his speed against humans and superhumans (yes he did)?

The only way to defeat being statued is for someone to be able to move and react fast enough to not be statued. That's what should be argued. Not BA won't statue Surfer only because Surfer has superpowers. You see how dumb that is?

You can have a character doing reasonable things. If you can't agree on what's reasonable then you are bias from the start and shouldn't be debating.

Originally posted by h1a8
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine a character did something because of their character vs what the script called for.
Do you really think BA is dumb enough not to use his speed, especially when he was shown using his speed against humans and superhumans (yes he did)?

The only way to defeat being statued is for someone to be able to move and react fast enough to not be statued. That's what should be argued. Not BA won't statue Surfer only because Surfer has superpowers. You see how dumb that is?

You can have a character doing reasonable things. If you can't agree on what's reasonable then you are bias from the start and shouldn't be debating.

And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that just because someone can accomplish a feat every now and then that it means they can accomplish it every single time.

I noticed you didn't respond to my post stating reasons why BA can be hit by people slower than him. It happens all the time in real-life fights, fighters can still get hit by slower fighters than they are.

In the end, feats matter. That's our golden rule. And as far as feats go, you won't be able to find a feat for BA where he was completely unhittable by a superpowered opponent.

Originally posted by FrothByte
And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that just because someone can accomplish a feat every now and then that it means they can accomplish it every single time.

Yes in general. But some feats can be accomplished ALL THE TIME. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know the difference.



DS covered this.
There are levels to speed. Humans can hits humans because a human's speed is within the range of human speed.

Your argument is wrong when it comes to things being SIGNIFICANTLY FASTER (I.e Statuing things and beings)

It is faulty logic that a statue can hit you because slower humans can hit faster humans. You see how dumb that is?

Now you can argue that Surfer will never be a statue to BA and that Surfer will move and react fast enough (with superspeed) that he has a chance of reacting to and hitting BA. That's the proper argument.
Not that statues can hit people because slower humans can hit faster humans.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Sad part is Its pretty easy to show BA as pretty OP based on his on screen feats, but arguments for him here are just terrible.

But hey if we want to just go by power set then Surfer goes Intangible through any hits directed at him and hits BA with power enough to drill through the planet. Hes even been shown moving faster tbh.

So BA using his speed to statue the battlefield is arguing powerset?
Really?
Especially when he has done it multiple times in the movie in character?

And don't give me that stupid BA will choose to not statue beings that have superpowers (although he has in the movie).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Even if it takes but a thought.....it's like a guy who knows 637 different g this sequence on a script where the fight needs to look sexy and last a good while.languages, who was trained by Bruce Lee and Muhammad Ali, who knows how to drive every vehicle ever made, armed with an unbreakable super sharp sword etc etc....

And I fire a bullet at him.

I know what your saying and i'm not debating anything, but in order for BA to take the Surfer out he would basically need to one shot him and I don't think thats feasible. Oh well.

There's no actual point in debating this match-up deeming a clear winner because there's to many unknown aspects. I'm only opinionating who I think would win with no actual facts because I don't really know the Surfers higher limits.

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes in general. But some feats can be accomplished ALL THE TIME. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know the difference.



DS covered this.
There are levels to speed. Humans can hits humans because a human's speed is within the range of human speed.

Your argument is wrong when it comes to things being SIGNIFICANTLY FASTER (I.e Statuing things and beings)

It is faulty logic that a statue can hit you because slower humans can hit faster humans. You see how dumb that is?

Now you can argue that Surfer will never be a statue to BA and that Surfer will move and react fast enough (with superspeed) that he has a chance of reacting to and hitting BA. That's the proper argument.
Not that statues can hit people because slower humans can hit faster humans.

What you aren't grasping is that the Surfer isn't going to engage in fisticuffs so the whole point of trying to hit BA is a moot point. If the Surfer feels he's threatened, its going to be a wide area release of cosmic power.

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes in general. But some feats can be accomplished ALL THE TIME. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know the difference.



DS covered this.
There are levels to speed. Humans can hits humans because a human's speed is within the range of human speed.

Your argument is wrong when it comes to things being SIGNIFICANTLY FASTER (I.e Statuing things and beings)

It is faulty logic that a statue can hit you because slower humans can hit faster humans. You see how dumb that is?

Now you can argue that Surfer will never be a statue to BA and that Surfer will move and react fast enough (with superspeed) that he has a chance of reacting to and hitting BA. That's the proper argument.
Not that statues can hit people because slower humans can hit faster humans.

Where did I ever claim humans can hit BA? I said superhumans can hit BA,as was proven time and time again in his movie. You can't keep on ignoring his feats dude. You know how this works.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Where did I ever claim humans can hit BA? I said superhumans can hit BA,as was proven time and time again in his movie. You can't keep on ignoring his feats dude. You know how this works.

You basically saying BA can't statue someone solely because they possess super powers and not because they possess a sufficient amount of speed.
Dumbest argument ever.

Originally posted by h1a8
You basically saying BA can't statue someone solely because they possess super powers and not because they possess a sufficient amount of speed.
Dumbest argument ever.

Yet, you keep stating he is just going to statue anybody he comes up against even though his actual movie feats show differently.

Now what is the dumbest argument ever?

Originally posted by h1a8
1)So BA using his speed to statue the battlefield is arguing powerset?
Really?
Especially when he has done it multiple times in the movie in character?

2)And don't give me that stupid BA will choose to not statue beings that have superpowers (although he has in the movie).

1) Name the multiple times so we can analyse how relevant they are.

2) Tell me did he choose to statue Hawkman and Doctor Fate during their multiple fights in the movie or did he chose not to statue them every single time they fought?

Originally posted by FrothByte
A forum fight might not be scripted but we're still basing it off of the movies and shows they came from. You can't disregard their movie feats due to them being scripted, because in doing so the entire character we're talking about ceases to exist. Or they cease to have any feats at all.

I agree on this.

BA has speed feats, and punchy feats. Surfer has great versatility feats, but no speed feats (that people have said).

Match starts.

If Surfer has no speed feats, we can't just....assume he has the speed to react to a Rock-sized, superstrong, magical bullet hitting him. That's all.

If he doesn't have the speed feats to react, then does he have the durability feats to tank/withstand a Rock-sized, super-strong magical bullet hitting him?

If he does, then...fire away, and he turns BA into Teth-Adam made of jelly or somesuch.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Where did I ever claim humans can hit BA? I said superhumans can hit BA,as was proven time and time again in his movie. You can't keep on ignoring his feats dude. You know how this works.

Surely you recognise that superhuman speed, like superhuman strength, has levels to it, right?

Luke Cage isn't as strong as Hulk/Thor. We agree on this - all three characters are superstrong, yet Luke is never beating Hulk in a strength contest.

Flash and Deadpool are superfast (DP could block bullets etc). DP is never beating Flash in a speed contest.

So just because characters are 'superhuman', doesn't mean they automatically can match each other in speed or strength.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
1) Name the multiple times so we can analyse how relevant they are.

2) Tell me did he choose to statue Hawkman and Doctor Fate during their multiple fights in the movie or did he chose not to statue them every single time they fought?

This then circles back to 'he didn't do it, because the plot demanded he didn't'. Plot which does not exist in the forum fight - the bad guys don't always lose, the hero doesn't always win etc.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
This then circles back to 'he didn't do it, because the plot demanded he didn't'. Plot which does not exist in the forum fight - the bad guys don't always lose, the hero doesn't always win etc.


OR it's simply not in character for him to do so. Forum fights require fighting in character.

It's also possible that statuing the battlefield limits his other abilities, which is why he chooses to fight that way. Can't say for sure, but we only go by on screen feats here, and combatants fight in character.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
OR it's simply not in character for him to do so. Forum fights require fighting in character.

It's also possible that statuing the battlefield limits his other abilities, which is why he chooses to fight that way. Can't say for sure, but we only go by on screen feats here, and combatants fight in character.

Will it be in character for him to hold his abilities (speed etc) back if it costs him the fight? Go back to my flame example - if someone suddenly holds a flame to your bare skin, you will subconsciously jerk your hand away and avoid it...

But I will bite - what will Surfer, in character, do to BA? And when he does this, IF it starts hurting him (like my flame example) - are you saying he will consciously hold his speed back so that it hurts him, to the point he loses the match?

Originally posted by h1a8
You basically saying BA can't statue someone solely because they possess super powers and not because they possess a sufficient amount of speed.
Dumbest argument ever.

Here's your argument: BA have statued humans before, therefore he can statue Silver Surfer

Here's my argument: BA have been hit by pretty much every superhuman he's faced, multiple times. Therefore Surfer can hit him.


Based on the fact that Silver Surfer is superhuman and my argument is based on BA's feats against superhumans (whereas yours is based only on his feats against humans), then my argument is more valid.

End of discussion.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Here's your argument: BA have statued humans before, therefore he can statue Silver Surfer

Here's my argument: BA have been hit by pretty much every superhuman he's faced, multiple times. Therefore Surfer can hit him.


Based on the fact that Silver Surfer is superhuman and my argument is based on BA's feats against superhumans (whereas yours is based only on his feats against humans), then my argument is more valid.

End of discussion.

BA has statued humans and perceived bullets in slow motion.
Surfer is not faster than a bullet in combat nor does he have the reactions to react to a bullet. Therefore Surfer would be either a statue or moving very very slowly (slower than a bullet).

Why was BA hit in the movie?
Was it because the attacks were faster than what he can respond to?
Or
He allowed himself to be hit?
Or
The script allowed it (ignored his speed perception) in order to create adversity?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
OR it's simply not in character for him to do so. Forum fights require fighting in character.

It's also possible that statuing the battlefield limits his other abilities, which is why he chooses to fight that way. Can't say for sure, but we only go by on screen feats here, and combatants fight in character.

Why will it be out of character for BA to use speed and perceptions?
Especially when he did it to both humans and superhumans?

Originally posted by tkitna
Yet, you keep stating he is just going to statue anybody he comes up against even though his actual movie feats show differently.

Now what is the dumbest argument ever?

In a forum fight he can statue anything that doesn't move and react SIGNIFICANTLY faster than a human.
How is that a dumb argument?

Originally posted by h1a8

In a forum fight he can statue anything that doesn't move and react SIGNIFICANTLY faster than a human.
How is that a dumb argument?

Because Surfer is SIGNFICANTLY faster than a human, but yet you are still holding onto the perception that he will be statued by BA. And even if we admit BA is faster than Surfer per feats, Surfer only needs a fraction of a second for thought and then BA is a nonfactor.

Originally posted by tkitna
Because Surfer is SIGNFICANTLY faster than a human, but yet you are still holding onto the perception that he will be statued by BA. And even if we admit BA is faster than Surfer per feats, Surfer only needs a fraction of a second for thought and then BA is a nonfactor.

1. Prove that Surfer is significantly faster than a human in combat situation.
Significantly faster than a human is defined as least a couple of times faster than a bullet. Because anything slower can be easily perceived by BA as moving in slow motion.

2. What can Surfer do to BA in a fraction of a second that will make BA a nonfactor?

I mean, let's not ignore that BA actually DID use his speed against Hawkman, and was tossing him about with one hand without him being able to do anything about it:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11158/111588243/8689570-ezgif.com-gif-maker%2836%29%2822%29.gif

That is already more than what we've seen Surfer do. Hawkman, who is fast enough to react to BA's lightning:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11173/111730318/8965976-1b50b541-9f32-4eeb-ab9d-ea86ac8fb620.gif

Look at how he's able to react to and form a shield.

So Hawkman, on feats alone, is already faster than Surfer (being able to react to lightning). Yet BA still threw him about with one hand.

Unless....now Hawkman is holding his speed back? His superspeed is only viable against lightning, and not against punches?

Or are we attributing it to a scripted plot for a fight?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean, let's not ignore that BA actually DID use his speed against Hawkman, and was tossing him about with one hand without him being able to do anything about it:




Finally using Actual On Screen feats! That's more like it.

And no, nobody would ask you to ignore on screen feats, but don't expect us to make yours or H1's arguments for you either.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Finally using Actual On Screen feats! That's more like it.

And no, nobody would ask you to ignore on screen feats, but don't expect us to make yours or H1's arguments for you either.

But....that was the point all along. That he used his speed in fights.

For some reason you and others were saying he didn't. I didn't realise you guys didn't know of these scenes....

It's like someone swearing up and down that Superman can't fly....I thought it was so painfully obvious that the films had scenes of him flying, I didn't think I needed to post scenes of him doing so....

Originally posted by h1a8
1. Prove that Surfer is significantly faster than a human in combat situation.
Significantly faster than a human is defined as least a couple of times faster than a bullet. Because anything slower can be easily perceived by BA as moving in slow motion.

2. What can Surfer do to BA in a fraction of a second that will make BA a nonfactor?

1. Seriously? He was dodging and swatting missiles. No human is capable of that. And why does a couple of times faster than a bullet have to be the definition of being faster than a human?

2. You have got to be kidding me right now right?

Here is some Surfer feats.

Notice how earths environment is meaningless to him. He also toys with the Torch and just grabs him while still aflame and the next second they are out of earths atmosphere. Pretty dang fast. Molecules and atoms bend to his will. Hell, he even brought Sue back to life after she was dead and faced Galactus right after in a weakened state.

I just can't see BA contending with that. Surfer seems to be on a much larger scale.

98ox5CBEMdw

Originally posted by tkitna
Here is some Surfer feats.

Notice how earths environment is meaningless to him. He also toys with the Torch and just grabs him while still aflame and the next second they are out of earths atmosphere. Pretty dang fast. Molecules and atoms bend to his will. Hell, he even brought Sue back to life after she was dead and faced Galactus right after in a weakened state.

I just can't see BA contending with that. Surfer seems to be on a much larger scale.

98ox5CBEMdw

What it shows is that his intangibility is on/off, i.e. it isn't always on (he was tangible when grabbing Johnny, and when slapping missiles).

That clip is also misleading, which shows how 'clever' editing means that what's shown on screen =/=real time.

This is the actual flight sequence with Johnny (I noticed the Youtube clip was awkwardly cut):

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11173/111730318/9013206-0105cc31-475a-44a4-9fe3-7131b31de639.gif

You can see quite a few more seconds elapsed - and even then, editing and cutting means that you can't sit there with a timer, then proclaim that that's how long it took.

The versatility I 100% agree with. Surfer can do all sorts of wonderful things with his powers, I 100,0000% agree.

The issue here is that if he gets ragdolled by a superstrong magical bullet, he won't have the chance to do those things.

Yeah i'm aware the scene was edited, but it still only took seconds to get out of the atmosphere.

Again, it's hard to debate this matchup as there's the side that believes BA will dismantle Surfer before he even has time to react or be able to counter and then theres the side (my opinion) that BA wouldn't be able to take Surfer out before he could respond.

It all comes down to whether BA can take Surfer out in a instant. If not, he's done for.

Originally posted by tkitna
Yeah i'm aware the scene was edited, but it still only took seconds to get out of the atmosphere.

Again, it's hard to debate this matchup as there's the side that believes BA will dismantle Surfer before he even has time to react or be able to counter and then theres the side (my opinion) that BA wouldn't be able to take Surfer out before he could respond.

It all comes down to whether BA can take Surfer out in a instant. If not, he's done for.

It took seconds - based on the gif I posted (your post said a second). Even that gif is edited, made up of three shots (Surfer above the forest, the shot flying through the atmosphere, and the 3rd of them just above). Nothing to say how long elapses between cuts.

With regards to the second point, we at least have an idea of BA's speed, both travel and reaction in battle. A lightning-timer (Hawkman) was unable to stop him blitzing him and throwing him about with one hand (showing BA using it in battle against superhumans).

He is casually bullet-timing, I say this because he is able to catch a single bullet with his fingers:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11158/111588243/8689468-ezgif.com-gif-maker%2834%29.gif

That is way harder than swatting bullets - imagine swatting a fly, vs catching it between your finger and thumb.

h1 has been asking for Surfer's reaction speeds, for the second part. For Surfer to win, he'd have to either be fast enough to react (which we haven't seen) or durable enough to weather the assault (which we haven't seen).

Agreed that he exists on a more versatile scope - but the opponents he faced wouldn't be anything special. BA would also take Johnny out, would also swat those missile aside (or, more impressively, casually grab them and redirect them).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It took seconds - based on the gif I posted (your post said a second). Even that gif is edited, made up of three shots (Surfer above the forest, the shot flying through the atmosphere, and the 3rd of them just above). Nothing to say how long elapses between cuts.

With regards to the second point, we at least have an idea of BA's speed, both travel and reaction in battle. A lightning-timer (Hawkman) was unable to stop him blitzing him and throwing him about with one hand (showing BA using it in battle against superhumans).

He is casually bullet-timing, I say this because he is able to catch a single bullet with his fingers:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11158/111588243/8689468-ezgif.com-gif-maker%2834%29.gif

That is way harder than swatting bullets - imagine swatting a fly, vs catching it between your finger and thumb.

h1 has been asking for Surfer's reaction speeds, for the second part. For Surfer to win, he'd have to either be fast enough to react (which we haven't seen) or durable enough to weather the assault (which we haven't seen).

Agreed that he exists on a more versatile scope - but the opponents he faced wouldn't be anything special. BA would also take Johnny out, would also swat those missile aside (or, more impressively, casually grab them and redirect them).

I'm not arguing about the scene, i'm just saying it didn't take minutes or hours. I wasn't intending it was instantaneous.

Surfer only needs to be durable enough for a split second and then any assault from BA is a moot point. That is my argument and I don't think BA can KO Surfer in a second or two. There is being to much time spent on reaction speed here when so little is required by Surfer.

Originally posted by tkitna
I'm not arguing about the scene, i'm just saying it didn't take minutes or hours. I wasn't intending it was instantaneous.

Surfer only needs to be durable enough for a split second and then any assault from BA is a moot point. That is my argument and I don't think BA can KO Surfer in a second or two. There is being to much time spent on reaction speed here when so little is required by Surfer.

Ok - so how durable is Surfer?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ok - so how durable is Surfer?

You're going to make me watch this horrid movie again aren't you? Lol.

Honestly, not sure. He flies through the vastness of space and survived an explosion and shockwave much bigger than the earth. I think he can take a punch or two from BA before he phases.

Originally posted by tkitna
You're going to make me watch this horrid movie again aren't you? Lol.

Honestly, not sure. He flies through the vastness of space and survived an explosion and shockwave much bigger than the earth. I think he can take a punch or two from BA before he phases.

It is the price we must pay.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It is the price we must pay.

Originally posted by h1a8
BA has statued humans and perceived bullets in slow motion.
Surfer is not faster than a bullet in combat nor does he have the reactions to react to a bullet. Therefore Surfer would be either a statue or moving very very slowly (slower than a bullet).

Why was BA hit in the movie?
Was it because the attacks were faster than what he can respond to?
Or
He allowed himself to be hit?
Or
The script allowed it (ignored his speed perception) in order to create adversity?

BA has statued humans, not superhumans. This is supported by movie feats.

So here's the question for you: Is Silver Surfer human or superhuman?