Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Which of these Elders win?

Originally posted by batdude123
Which of these Elders win?

Didn't Gardener do nothing but make plants grow fast and live long?

What did Collecter use his gem for?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
What did Collecter use his gem for?

For show. He didn't even know what it was capable of.

None of the Elders really did. Thanos only realized what power they were truly capable of after staring into the Reality Nexus.

Reality vs Time has always been the most interesting of debates.

Basically a paradox is created, how can you influence the concept of Time, on someone who controls Reality around them? Time is an aspect of Reality as is Space and everything in between.

There's only one true solution for Time,

go back to the point before the one who wields the Reality Gem made their move,

otherwise a perpetual Time Loop is created, where the TG wielder continues to rewind time while the RG person continues to fix the the concept of Time within that Spacial Reality.

IMO.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Reality vs Time has always been the most interesting of debates.

Basically a paradox is created, how can you influence the concept of Time, on someone who controls Reality around them? Time is an aspect of Reality as is Space and everything in between.

There's only one true solution for Time,

go back to the point before the one who wields the Reality Gem made their move,

otherwise a perpetual Time Loop is created, where the TG wielder continues to rewind time while the RG person continues to fix the the concept of Time within that Spacial Reality.

IMO.

Exactly. I always felt that with the power gem backing up the reality gem in the Infinity Guantlet, it should've made the space and time gems redundant imo.

Originally posted by batdude123
Exactly. I always felt that with the power gem backing up the reality gem in the Infinity Guantlet, it should've made the space and time gems redundant imo.

Good point, but the Gems (Reality & Power) cannot affect Reality on the same scale,

the other Four combined with these Two, give it Multiversal influence perhaps beyond that.

Originally posted by batdude123
Exactly. I always felt that with the power gem backing up the reality gem in the Infinity Guantlet, it should've made the space and time gems redundant imo.

Actually I think that the RealityGem + PowerGem basicly makes all the other gems redundant.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Good point, but the Gems (Reality & Power) cannot affect Reality on the same scale,

the other Four combined with these Two, give it Multiversal influence perhaps beyond that.

I understand, it's just that other than increasing the control over reality as we know it, they really don't do much when combined with the reality gem on the Infinity Guantlets.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Actually I think that the RealityGem + PowerGem basicly makes all the other gems redundant.

Not really. The soul gem is still used to control the energies of the dead and the living, and the mind gem is used to read and influence everyone in the universe.

Originally posted by batdude123
Not really. The soul gem is still used to control the energies of the dead and the living, and the mind gem is used to read and influence everyone in the universe.

They're still parts of reality imo

But did they ever flesh out what exactly the RealityGem has control over?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
They're still parts of reality imo

But did they ever flesh out what exactly the RealityGem has control over?

Well, when all the gems are combined together, they give the user complete control over "everything that is."

Billions of years ago, the gems were linked together as a being, so to speak, who was literally a part of everything. He was everything, and everything was him.

Master is correct, in that all of them put together simply give you control over... everything.

And when Thanos demonstrated what the reality gem was capable of to the Collector, he warped the time/space continuum, and it became all screwed up.

Originally posted by batdude123
I understand, it's just that other than increasing the control over reality as we know it, they really don't do much when combined with the reality gem on the Infinity Guantlets.

I see what you mean,

And I agree.


But I must add, the difference in scale is dramatic.

While the RG & PG can control a Galaxy or pocket Universe at best, the IG according to the LT in the Rune series can bring about the demise of atleast Two MultiverseS, one of them being the house of the 616 Universe.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I see what you mean,

And I agree.


But I must add, the difference in scale is dramatic.

While the RG & PG can control a Galaxy or pocket Universe at best, the IG according to the LT in the Rune series can bring about the demise of atleast Two MultiverseS, one of them being the house of the 616 Universe.

Yes, the difference is scale.

However, when you think about it, if the power gem truly is "a limitless source of energy," then with it backing up the reality gem, it should produce the same results.

Originally posted by batdude123
Well, when all the gems are combined together, they give the user complete control over "everything that is."

Billions of years ago, the gems were linked together as a being, so to speak, who was literally a part of everything. He was everything, and everything was him.

Master is correct, in that all of them put together simply give you control over... everything.

And when Thanos demonstrated what the reality gem was capable of to the Collector, he warped the time/space continuum, and it became all screwed up.

I agree.

In Warlock Chronicles the Reality Gem alone had created a rift that was threatening the enitre Universe, the 616 Reality that is.

The Gems individualy can still affect the Universe entire in an indirect fashion it seems.

Rune froze the 616 Time Stream, with the Time Gem, but at that point the Gems were gaining Sentience, so perhaps they are more powerful when aware.

Originally posted by batdude123
Yes, the difference is scale.

However, when you think about it, if the power gem truly is "a limitless source of energy," then with it backing up the reality gem, it should produce the same results.

Within a smaller area of Space, I agree.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I agree.

In Warlock Chronicles the Reality Gem alone had created a rift that was threatening the enitre Universe, the 616 Reality that is.

The Gems individualy can still affect the Universe entire in an indirect fashion it seems.

Rune froze the 616 Time Stream, with the Time Gem, but at that point the Gems were gaining Sentience, so perhaps they are more powerful when aware.

Interesting. I wonder why then he used the soul gem in an obsolete fashion. Thanos commented on how Warlock used it pretty much like an idiot.

Has there been an arc yet where someone put together all of the sentient infinity gems?

You CAN use the Reality Gem to it's fullest capabilities when it's backed by the power gem. The other gems aren't really necessary to access that level of power, they're necessary to CONTROL that level of power. This has actually been established twice on panel(once by Adam Warlock, and once by LT)...
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/508/warlockchronicles120pd6.th.jpg
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/2275/warlockinfinitywatch110sb2.th.jpg

The way I see it, the Power Gem allows the Reality Gem to work at peak capacity, and the other gems allow it to work at peak efficiency.

Originally posted by batdude123
Has there been an arc yet where someone put together all of the sentient infinity gems?

I don't think it's possible.

When Nemesis was formed, the Seven Gems combined, the Gems were struggling over control of the power they all made up, Nemesis was unable to fully realize her power, but her power was astonishing.

And now come to think of it, it was the Time Gem and Reality Gem together, that saved the day.

When Nemesis was split by the Ebony Blade, her power let out Creation Waves, that were producing one Reality after another, had it not been for the TG & RG, the Waves would have continued into Infinity and Eternity making Realities.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You CAN use the Reality Gem to it's fullest capabilities when it's backed by the power gem. The other gems aren't really necessary to access that level of power, they're necessary to CONTROL that level of power. This has actually been established twice on panel(once by Adam Warlock, and once by LT)...

The way I see it, the Power Gem allows the Reality Gem to work at peak capacity, and the other gems allow it to work at peak efficiency.

I have to disagree,

that's the issue I was talking about from Warlock Chronicles,

that's not the Reality Gem at it's full capacity, that's just a Rift in Time and Space that was gradually warping Reality into madness. At full capacity the Reality Gem would have warped the entire Universe in one instant, it would have created a rift that Warlock would have not survived, like he did this one when he dove in it.

If the same results were possible, the IG would be pointless.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I have to disagree,

that's the issue I was talking about from Warlock Chronicles,

that's not the Reality Gem at it's full capacity, that's just a Rift in Time and Space that was gradually warping Reality into madness. At full capacity the Reality Gem would have warped the entire Universe in one instant, it would have created a rift that Warlock would have not survived, like he did this one when he dove in it.

If the same results were possible, the IG would be pointless.
I know THAT wasn't the Reality Gem at full capacity, because the Goddess didn't have the Power Gem to back the Reality Gem. I didn't mean that it's been established that the Reality Gem could be used at peak capacity with the Power Gem twice(rereading my post I can see how my statement could be taken that way), I meant the fact that the other gems were necessary to ensure control of the effects of the Reality Gem.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I meant the fact that the other gems were necessary to ensure control of the effects of the Reality Gem.

That's more plausible, I can agree with that.

You'd still need the other Gems in the end regardless though.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's more plausible, I can agree with that.

You'd still need the other Gems in the end regardless though.
Of course you would, that's my whole point. It's THEORETICALLY possible to use the Reality Gem and Power Gem in union to accomplish anything possible with the IG, but the risk of warping reality at THAT level without the other gems present to control it would be unbelievable.

Time Gem and Reality Gem, together,

prove to be the greatest combination:




The Infinity Being (known as Nemesis) is formed again, and the Gem's true powers are realized.


"What we have witnessed and experienced of TWO Universes must be UNDONE!"

"in the blink of an eye the Being called Nemesis Obliterates Two Universes "
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/4062/n1mf0.th.jpg
"not with destructive force, but with a wave of creative energy.

Thus Reality is not brought to the edge of apocalypse, but its very Origins"





After obliterating the Two Universes, Nemesis began to create,


"a brief sketch of a working Universe, a few thousand miles across, Containing Elements of UniverseS It'd Experienced"
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/8650/n2jy6.th.jpg





When the Black Night shattered the union of the Infinity gems located on Nemesis's head, the Infinity Being's power was unleashed in Waves of creation energy.




The first Wave created a New Universe,
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9656/n1eu3.th.jpg



"Everything begins again"
http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/9186/n2yi1.th.jpg
"Something bigger than us claps its hands, and so the Universe blooms"


http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/2986/n3qm9.th.jpg


http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/4460/n4cx4.th.jpg




continues in the next post...

But it didn't stop there,

EVERY Wave that followed the first one CREATED a New Reality, but in doing so it was destroying the same Reality/Universes that were being created because,

the Time and Reality Gems separated from the rest of the Gems one nanosecond after the FIRST Wave was released, so the resulting Realities/Universes were created without the stable Concept of Time, damaging the fabric of Reality.



The Reality Gem took Amber Hunt as a Host, and they went seeking the Time Gem, to try and stop the Nemesis Waves before they started by manipulating Time and Reality together.



"Each New Wave CREATED another New Reality"
http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/995/n5pa7.th.jpg




They reach Warstrike's Kingdom located in a Reality created by the Nemesis Wave.


"Is this all that is left of the World?" ... "Only in THIS Reality"
http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/8291/n5axy3.th.jpg

"ANOTHER Time, a DIFFERENT Reality, in the castle of Warstrike"
http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/6020/n5bjd1.th.jpg




Warstrike's daughter had the Time Gem, and Amber and the Reality Gem were there to get it back, Amber let's them know that this Reality is unnatural.



"I've come for the Gem your daughter holds, it doesn't belong here, NOTHING belongs here"
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/5919/n6lm7.th.jpg




"What do you mean NOTHING belongs here?" ... "This whole Reality is wrong"
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/44/n7en8.th.jpg
"These Two Gems (Time-Reality) must be reunited, otherwise ALL REALITIES, including this one, will be destroyed, I have to use them to CREATE a New and stronger Reality, one whose Fabric isn't unravelling as this one is"




So after acquiring the Time Gem, together with the Reality Gem Amber returns to a nanosecond after the Gems were split up, where the Time Gem Froze Nemesis:

http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/2338/n8ls5.th.jpg



What for?



"Due to the exposure to the Entity (Nemesis) your body now holds the power to absorb the Nemesis Waves and then release it as harmless energy"
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/6865/n9hd0.th.jpg



And so she does:

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/962/n10pw6.th.jpg



The end...

Originally posted by darthgoober
Of course you would, that's my whole point. It's THEORETICALLY possible to use the Reality Gem and Power Gem in union to accomplish anything possible with the IG, but the risk of warping reality at THAT level without the other gems present to control it would be unbelievable.

I agree.

Hey Mr. M I was just thinking about it, and I came up with a theory I wanted to run by you. Now we've established that the other gems are necessary to ensure control over the Reality Gem, but the question that remains it WHY(which is what my theory concerns). So here's what I was just thinking....

Those possessing the IG experience a rush of info from all the various aspects of Reality right? We even see this when Thanos first assembles the IG...
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/2911/thanosquest238va0.th.jpg
"Nothing that ever was or will be can hide from my inspection."

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/1406/thanosquest239np3.th.jpg
"Distance becomes a mere intellectual concept."

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3874/thanosquest240my3.th.jpg
"No thought shall remain secret from me, every mind is mine to open and examine."

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/5219/thanosquest242kf7.th.jpg
Now Thanos didn't make any direct references to added sensory input because he started talking about Warlock, but it's pretty well established that a wielder of the Soul Gem has the ability to look into the Souls of others, so just think of that input backed by the Power Gem and you get a pretty clear picture of what it contributes.

Now the funny thing is, it's NEVER been touched upon as to what info is provided by a completed the Power or Reality Gems...
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3225/thanosquest241bl0.th.jpg
See? No mention of added sensory input do to the Power Gem. It DOES however say that it's the gem that allows thought to become reality, which supports the theory that a combination of the Power and Reality Gem could theoretically accomplish anything possible with the IG.

And as for the Reality Gem...
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/3219/thanosquest243bi6.th.jpg
There's no added sensory input established there either. In fact if you look closely at the images between the two halves of Thanos's head, it's all things that he saw when he established what he received from the other gems.

This type of thing was further established when Magus was in possession of an incomplete IG as well...
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/819/infintywars0531fz5.th.jpg

Magus speaks of the input from the Infinity Gems just as Thanos did, even though he lacked the Reality Gem. So it seems to me that that the Reality and Power Gems sole purpose is to DO stuff, not to KNOW stuff.

So here's my theory on the matter. It's the Power Gem/Reality Gem combo that provides the actual omnipotence provided by the IG. The other gems contribution is sensory input from the various aspects of reality that make up the OMNISCIENCE provided by a completed IG. See my idea is that the other gems are necessary to grant the user full knowledge of just HOW he's messing with reality at any given moment. Without that knowledge, you could alter some fundamental law of reality unknowingly and create a rift(like the one that Warlock traversed) that could/would destroy EVERYTHING(the rift Warlock traversed encompassed several realities as it is, backed by the power gem that rift would have easily spanned the entire multiverse).

So what do you think?

Originally posted by Mr Master
I have to disagree,

that's the issue I was talking about from Warlock Chronicles,

that's not the Reality Gem at it's full capacity, that's just a Rift in Time and Space that was gradually warping Reality into madness. At full capacity the Reality Gem would have warped the entire Universe in one instant, it would have created a rift that Warlock would have not survived, like he did this one when he dove in it.

If the same results were possible, the IG would be pointless.

Thanks, Master.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Hey Mr. M I was just thinking about it, and I came up with a theory I wanted to run by you. Now we've established that the other gems are necessary to ensure control over the Reality Gem, but the question that remains it WHY(which is what my theory concerns). So here's what I was just thinking....

Those possessing the IG experience a rush of info from all the various aspects of Reality right? We even see this when Thanos first assembles the IG...
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/2911/thanosquest238va0.th.jpg
"Nothing that ever was or will be can hide from my inspection."

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/1406/thanosquest239np3.th.jpg
"Distance becomes a mere intellectual concept."

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3874/thanosquest240my3.th.jpg
"No thought shall remain secret from me, every mind is mine to open and examine."

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/5219/thanosquest242kf7.th.jpg
Now Thanos didn't make any direct references to added sensory input because he started talking about Warlock, but it's pretty well established that a wielder of the Soul Gem has the ability to look into the Souls of others, so just think of that input backed by the Power Gem and you get a pretty clear picture of what it contributes.

Now the funny thing is, it's NEVER been touched upon as to what info is provided by a completed the Power or Reality Gems...
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3225/thanosquest241bl0.th.jpg
See? No mention of added sensory input do to the Power Gem. It DOES however say that it's the gem that allows thought to become reality, which supports the theory that a combination of the Power and Reality Gem could theoretically accomplish anything possible with the IG.

And as for the Reality Gem...
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/3219/thanosquest243bi6.th.jpg
There's no added sensory input established there either. In fact if you look closely at the images between the two halves of Thanos's head, it's all things that he saw when he established what he received from the other gems.

This type of thing was further established when Magus was in possession of an incomplete IG as well...
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/819/infintywars0531fz5.th.jpg

Magus speaks of the input from the Infinity Gems just as Thanos did, even though he lacked the Reality Gem. So it seems to me that that the Reality and Power Gems sole purpose is to DO stuff, not to KNOW stuff.

So here's my theory on the matter. It's the Power Gem/Reality Gem combo that provides the actual omnipotence provided by the IG. The other gems contribution is sensory input from the various aspects of reality that make up the OMNISCIENCE provided by a completed IG. See my idea is that the other gems are necessary to grant the user full knowledge of just HOW he's messing with reality at any given moment. Without that knowledge, you could alter some fundamental law of reality unknowingly and create a rift(like the one that Warlock traversed) that could/would destroy EVERYTHING(the rift Warlock traversed encompassed several realities as it is, backed by the power gem that rift would have easily spanned the entire multiverse).

So what do you think?

hmm, that may be plausible. it is difficult to infer too much about the relative power of each gem. i guess i've always thought the reality gem was sort of a . . . dull knife, while the individual pieces are more like scalpels.

i'd say that the reality gem wielder could mold time, but i'd say the wielder of the time gem would have better control of time. if both were backed by the power gem, i'd say it would come down to a quick-draw battle because imo TIME would supercede the reality gem's control of time, but if reality struck first, it could essentially just . . . remove time from existence.

likewise with the other gems. reality is an umbrella, capable of doing all things, but not to the degree the individual gems are capable of doing them. i'd say that any gem v any gem would be a quick-draw scenario if both were backed by the power gem and all were used to their fullest.

Originally posted by leonidas

reality is an umbrella, capable of doing all things, but not to the degree the individual gems are capable of doing them. i'd say that any gem v any gem would be a quick-draw scenario if both were backed by the power gem and all were used to their fullest.
I liked how u sumed up the reality gem

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, that may be plausible. it is difficult to infer too much about the relative power of each gem. i guess i've always thought the reality gem was sort of a . . . dull knife, while the individual pieces are more like scalpels.

i'd say that the reality gem wielder could mold time, but i'd say the wielder of the time gem would have better control of time. if both were backed by the power gem, i'd say it would come down to a quick-draw battle because imo TIME would supercede the reality gem's control of time, but if reality struck first, it could essentially just . . . remove time from existence.

likewise with the other gems. reality is an umbrella, capable of doing all things, but not to the degree the individual gems are capable of doing them. i'd say that any gem v any gem would be a quick-draw scenario if both were backed by the power gem and all were used to their fullest.
I don't know about the whole "Dull knife" comparison. The one time(to my knowledge) that Thanos actually USED the Reality Gem after it was intrusted to him, he actually brought Captain Mar-Vell back from the dead. That in and of itself technically utilized the various aspects of existence(with the exception of Time) with a finer degree of control than any of the other gems have showed.

The way I see it, the Power Gem combined with one of the other gems allows it user to do anything possible within the gem's respective aspect. But the Power Gem combined with the Reality Gem will allow you to CHANGE what's possible in the first place by rewriting the laws of reality itself(making your effect the rule, rather than just a specific effect). Using the Reality Gem like that allows you to do things like change the equation of...

2+2=4

Into...

2+2=Yellow.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I don't know about the whole "Dull knife" comparison. The one time(to my knowledge) that Thanos actually USED the Reality Gem after it was intrusted to him, he actually brought Captain Mar-Vell back from the dead. That in and of itself technically utilized the various aspects of existence(with the exception of Time) with a finer degree of control than any of the other gems have showed.

The way I see it, the Power Gem combined with one of the other gems allows it user to do anything possible within the gem's respective aspect. But the Power Gem combined with the Reality Gem will allow you to CHANGE what's possible in the first place by rewriting the laws of reality itself(making your effect the rule, rather than just a specific effect). Using the Reality Gem like that allows you to do things like change the equation of...

2+2=4

Into...

2+2=Yellow.

i get what you're saying. i think it's just a bit counter-intuitive as regards the proposed nature of each gem. true, reality WILL allow you to change what is possible. i'm comparing strictly on the basis of the reality gem vs the various individual aspects.

yes the RG has more versatility, no doubt, and it can do some of what each can do individually. but it comes down to control again, imo. if the RG wielder did something to time, i'd say the TG could rectify whatever it did. if the TG did something to time, the RG might be able to . . . i don't know, change reality so that time has no meaning there? but it would not allow the wielder to simply overcome whatever effect on time the TG manifested.

each has its own domain -- and each is supreme in said domain. RG has the advantage that it could sort of do an end run around the effects of any of the other but if the TG wielder froze time (that would include thought and everything) the RG wielder would be screwed. likewise the TG wielder would be screwed if the RG got off the first shot.

an interesting question would be who gets first shot . . .?

i think it's an unanswerable question.

Originally posted by leonidas
i get what you're saying. i think it's just a bit counter-intuitive as regards the proposed nature of each gem. true, reality WILL allow you to change what is possible. i'm comparing strictly on the basis of the reality gem vs the various individual aspects.

yes the RG has more versatility, no doubt, and it can do some of what each can do individually. but it comes down to control again, imo. if the RG wielder did something to time, i'd say the TG could rectify whatever it did. if the TG did something to time, the RG might be able to . . . i don't know, change reality so that time has no meaning there? but it would not allow the wielder to simply overcome whatever effect on time the TG manifested.

each has its own domain -- and each is supreme in said domain. RG has the advantage that it could sort of do an end run around the effects of any of the other but if the TG wielder froze time (that would include thought and everything) the RG wielder would be screwed. likewise the TG wielder would be screwed if the RG got off the first shot.

an interesting question would be who gets first shot . . .?

i think it's an unanswerable question.
I still don't know, because at it's fundamental level the Reality Gem controls the laws of the universe. It can effectively control what's REAL.

Here think about this(I'll use your time example).I understand what you're saying about the first shot factor, so to make things simple I'll assume simultaneous thoughts from each user)

Time Gem user thinks "FREEZE HIM IN TIME!"

Reality Gem user thinks "TIME FREEZES AREN'T ALLOWED"

And there you go, the Reality gem user just altered the rules of reality to bar the option of time freezes thus overriding the Time Gem users authority on the matter because time is simply an aspect of reality. By the same token the Reality Gem user could have simply thought "I'm immune to time freezes" and avoided the effect as well.

The thing is that the other gems have to work within the system, but the Reality Gem can work outside of the system. If a user of the Time Gem wants to alter the timeline so that Hitler was never born he goes back into the past and stops his mom and dad from meeting, and everything else unfolds differently under the new timeline. The Reality Gem user is able to say "Hitler never existed" and that's that. IMO the Reality Gem is the one that provides a greater degree of control over the individual aspects of the gems because it's not necessary for him to get involved directly with whatever effects he's trying to accomplish.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I still don't know, because at it's fundamental level the Reality Gem controls the laws of the universe. It can effectively control what's REAL.

Here think about this(I'll use your time example).I understand what you're saying about the first shot factor, so to make things simple I'll assume simultaneous thoughts from each user)

Time Gem user thinks "FREEZE HIM IN TIME!"

Reality Gem user thinks "TIME FREEZES AREN'T ALLOWED"

And there you go, the Reality gem user just altered the rules of reality to bar the option of time freezes thus overriding the Time Gem users authority on the matter because time is simply an aspect of reality. By the same token the Reality Gem user could have simply thought "I'm immune to time freezes" and avoided the effect as well.

The thing is that the other gems have to work within the system, but the Reality Gem can work outside of the system. If a user of the Time Gem wants to alter the timeline so that Hitler was never born he goes back into the past and stops his mom and dad from meeting, and everything else unfolds differently under the new timeline. The Reality Gem user is able to say "Hitler never existed" and that's that. IMO the Reality Gem is the one that provides a greater degree of control over the individual aspects of the gems because it's not necessary for him to get involved directly with whatever effects he's trying to accomplish.

you said the same thng i said, you just . . . came to a different conclusion somehow.

i said the RG gives more versatility and so as a result it can do end-arounds and supercede each gem by utilizing an aspect OUTSIDE that individual gem's purview. that's why i used time vs time (TG's 'time control' vs RG's 'time control')

if it came down to a battle of 'time' vs 'time' control, TG wins because that is its domain. but the RG could do OTHER things to supercede the TG's control or dominance in that particular domain.

to use your example, if it was simultaneous and the TG said freeze time, but did not for whatever reason freeze THOUGHT (which WOULD be frozen . . .) the RG could not say -- unfreeze time. the TG supercede's the RG's time control. he COULD however say let's just eliminate time altogether.

if that makes sense. it still comes down to quick-draw. the RG wielder simply has more ways to take out the TG wielder than vice-versa, imo.

Originally posted by leonidas
i get what you're saying. i think it's just a bit counter-intuitive as regards the proposed nature of each gem. true, reality WILL allow you to change what is possible. i'm comparing strictly on the basis of the reality gem vs the various individual aspects.

yes the RG has more versatility, no doubt, and it can do some of what each can do individually. but it comes down to control again, imo. if the RG wielder did something to time, i'd say the TG could rectify whatever it did. if the TG did something to time, the RG might be able to . . . i don't know, change reality so that time has no meaning there? but it would not allow the wielder to simply overcome whatever effect on time the TG manifested.

each has its own domain -- and each is supreme in said domain. RG has the advantage that it could sort of do an end run around the effects of any of the other but if the TG wielder froze time (that would include thought and everything) the RG wielder would be screwed. likewise the TG wielder would be screwed if the RG got off the first shot.

an interesting question would be who gets first shot . . .?

i think it's an unanswerable question.

I understand where you're coming from, saying that each gem is the master of its individual domain, however you have to look at what reality itself is. Reality, as we know it, is the TIME/SPACE continuum. Meaning, both the space gem and the time gem are only manipulating portions of what makes up reality.

If the power gem were to back up the reality gem with an unlimited supply of energy for it to work, it would have complete control over all aspects of reality. This includes both time, and space.

It's stated that the space gem manipulates distances between points in reality. Meaning, someone with it uses "mental teleportation," as Thanos put it. The user subconsciously manipulates distances in space.

The time gem really needs no explanation, it is what it is. Someone with it has complete mastery over time.

If someone had the reality gem backed by the power gem, then he'd have complete control over reality itself. This includes both facets of reality, including space and time. I think this would allow complete mastery over both aspects, making the space and time gems theoretically redundant.

Originally posted by leonidas
you said the same thng i said, you just . . . came to a different conclusion somehow.

i said the RG gives more versatility and so as a result it can do end-arounds and supercede each gem by utilizing an aspect OUTSIDE that individual gem's purview. that's why i used time vs time (TG's 'time control' vs RG's 'time control')

if it came down to a battle of 'time' vs 'time' control, TG wins because that is its domain. but the RG could do OTHER things to supercede the TG's control or dominance in that particular domain.

to use your example, if it was simultaneous and the TG said freeze time, but did not for whatever reason freeze THOUGHT (which WOULD be frozen . . .) the RG could not say -- unfreeze time. the TG supercede's the RG's time control. he COULD however say let's just eliminate time altogether.

if that makes sense. it still comes down to quick-draw. the RG wielder simply has more ways to take out the TG wielder than vice-versa, imo.
I'm still not seeing how you're thinking the Time Gem would be superior in the aspect of time though. ANYTHING the Gem's user could accomplish, the Reality Gem user could simulate. Things like time travel or time freezing are capable via the thoughts "I'm traveling backwards through time" or "Time is frozen". There's nothing the Time Gem user could do that I can't see the Reality Gem user being able to accomplish just using the aspect of time.

Originally posted by batdude123
I think this would allow complete mastery over both aspects, making the space and time gems theoretically redundant.
Not really. After all don't forget that it's the individual gems that provide the sensory input and without that there's a good chance the whole universe would get flushed down the tubes do to the users lack of information.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Not really. After all don't forget that it's the individual gems that provide the sensory input and without that there's a good chance the whole universe would get flushed down the tubes do to the users lack of information.

I think you misinterpreted what I was saying.

IF someone with the reality gem and power gem is granted COMPLETE MASTERY over reality (and all things that make up reality), the user would also have complete control over both time and space. Time and space are the aspects that make up reality in the first place.

It's like someone who is a perfect basketball player in all aspects, and a guy who is perfect at dribbling only. Dribbling is an aspect of basketball, yet the perfect basketball player can dribble perfectly and do everything else in basketball perfectly. If that analogy makes sense to you.

it's actually a good analogy. your saying then that the control of the single aspect of time would be equal. meh, i can see that logically, but still don't accept it because your take on the gems, like goob's, is counter-intuitive.

i preface by saying you may both be correct in your assumptions. by your reasoning however, i could likewise say that using all the other gems in concert, minus the reality gem, could do everything the reality gem could do, thus the others together make the reality gem redundant.

to speculate that one gem or a group of them could make the others redundant however is going against the nature of the gems as they have been described. time=absolute master of time, etc. there is no 'logical' stance so to speak behind my argument other than the intended design of the gems themselves. it would seem to me that 'reality' was broken up differently than the way you are both portraying it when the IB created the gems. it's possible reality is something OTHER than time and space, BECAUSE time and space and reality are all seperate gems.

if the TG gives absolute mastery over time, how can the RG supercede the TG's control? but breaking down reality as YOU have, it's hard to see the TG superceding the RG's control of time as well. i'll not accept the argument that one gem makes the other redundant however as that goes against the intended design of the gems and counter-intuitive arguments never hold much weight for me.

Originally posted by Mr Master
how can you influence the concept of Time, on someone who controls Reality around them? Time is an aspect of Reality as is Space and everything in between. I agree....... From a "real world" point of view..



But,

If time and space can be manipulated by the reality gem, then why would there be a need for time and space gems?


IMO,

They are separate entities, ..

Originally posted by leonidas
it's actually a good analogy. your saying then that the control of the single aspect of time would be equal. meh, i can see that logically, but still don't accept it because your take on the gems, like goob's, is counter-intuitive.

i preface by saying you may both be correct in your assumptions. by your reasoning however, i could likewise say that using all the other gems in concert, minus the reality gem, could do everything the reality gem could do, thus the others together make the reality gem redundant.

to speculate that one gem or a group of them could make the others redundant however is going against the nature of the gems as they have been described. time=absolute master of time, etc. there is no 'logical' stance so to speak behind my argument other than the intended design of the gems themselves. it would seem to me that 'reality' was broken up differently than the way you are both portraying it when the IB created the gems. it's possible reality is something OTHER than time and space, BECAUSE time and space and reality are all seperate gems.

if the TG gives absolute mastery over time, how can the RG supercede the TG's control? but breaking down reality as YOU have, it's hard to see the TG superceding the RG's control of time as well. i'll not accept the argument that one gem makes the other redundant however as that goes against the intended design of the gems and counter-intuitive arguments never hold much weight for me.
Well at this point there's not really a lot for us to do other than go in circles because now we're just stating different interpretations of the same evidence and events, and this is pretty much all theoretical anyway. But I would like to address one specific point in your post...

Originally posted by leonidas
i preface by saying you may both be correct in your assumptions. by your reasoning however, i could likewise say that using all the other gems in concert, minus the reality gem, could do everything the reality gem could do, thus the others together make the reality gem redundant.


The thing is we actually HAVE an actual instance of the gems being used together without the Reality Gems. And what happened....

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/1637/infintywars0622tf2.th.jpg

A disruption in the flow of reality. Like I said, any of the gems backed by the Power Gem can do anything within the boundary's of it's respective sphere, but the Reality Gem is necessary if your wanting to change those boundaries or work outside of them.

Originally posted by batdude123
I think you misinterpreted what I was saying.

IF someone with the reality gem and power gem is granted COMPLETE MASTERY over reality (and all things that make up reality), the user would also have complete control over both time and space. Time and space are the aspects that make up reality in the first place.

It's like someone who is a perfect basketball player in all aspects, and a guy who is perfect at dribbling only. Dribbling is an aspect of basketball, yet the perfect basketball player can dribble perfectly and do everything else in basketball perfectly. If that analogy makes sense to you.
I understand(and it's a good analogy), I was just pointing out that even though they have mastery of all reality, they don't have knowledge of all reality which is necessary to keep from screwing everything up(which is the reason the other gems are necessary IMO).

Originally posted by leonidas
it's actually a good analogy. your saying then that the control of the single aspect of time would be equal. meh, i can see that logically, but still don't accept it because your take on the gems, like goob's, is counter-intuitive.

i preface by saying you may both be correct in your assumptions. by your reasoning however, i could likewise say that using all the other gems in concert, minus the reality gem, could do everything the reality gem could do, thus the others together make the reality gem redundant.

to speculate that one gem or a group of them could make the others redundant however is going against the nature of the gems as they have been described. time=absolute master of time, etc. there is no 'logical' stance so to speak behind my argument other than the intended design of the gems themselves. it would seem to me that 'reality' was broken up differently than the way you are both portraying it when the IB created the gems. it's possible reality is something OTHER than time and space, BECAUSE time and space and reality are all seperate gems.

if the TG gives absolute mastery over time, how can the RG supercede the TG's control? but breaking down reality as YOU have, it's hard to see the TG superceding the RG's control of time as well. i'll not accept the argument that one gem makes the other redundant however as that goes against the intended design of the gems and counter-intuitive arguments never hold much weight for me.

I think you're misinterpreting the intention of my post, leo. I accpet the fact that all six of the Infinity gems put together make you a master over everything. That's fine, and I'm not going to argue that point. The purpose of the space and time gems being a part of the IG is something I have no problem with.

All I'm saying, is that THEORETICALLY, with the reality gem backed up by the power gem, it should allow complete mastery over reality. This includes time and space.

If Starlin meant for reality to be something other than the actual denotation of it being the time/space continuum, that's cool. However, if you truly think about it from a logical and theoretical standpoint, unlimited and absolute control over reality should include both time and space.

The only logical explanation for having the space and time gems along with the reality gem in my opinion, is what Master said earlier. To expand the scope of power from a universal level to a multiversal level.

Even when Thanos described the reality gem's functions, in the artwork, Ron Lim depicted Thanos' explanation of the time gem along with all of the other gems inside Thanos' head.

http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thanosquest243bi6.jpg

It's almost as if Starlin accepted the fact that time, along with everything else is a part of reality.

But, I digress. Either way, doesn't really matter. It takes ALL six gems to make the Infinity Guantlet.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I understand(and it's a good analogy), I was just pointing out that even though they have mastery of all reality, they don't have knowledge of all reality which is necessary to keep from screwing everything up(which is the reason the other gems are necessary IMO).

Right, but of course I was assuming we were talking about Thanos AFTER he stared into the Nexus of Reality to understand what the gems' true purposes are.

Originally posted by Galan007
I agree....... From a "real world" point of view..



But,

If time and space can be manipulated by the reality gem, then why would there be a need for time and space gems?


IMO,

They are separate entities, ..
But the Reality Gem CAN affect the individual aspects of reality. When Thanos resurrected Captain Mar-Vell he affected pretty much every facet of reality except for time. Mar-vell was brought to Thanos which is a manipulation of space. He had both spirit and mind so he manipulated the mind and soul. He was alive and completely healthy which is manipulation of power(because he went from NO life force to a fully functional life force).

Originally posted by batdude123
Right, but of course I was assuming we were talking about Thanos AFTER he stared into the Nexus of Reality to understand what the gems' true purposes are.
That doesn't really matter though. Even with that level of understanding you NEED the info gained by the other gems to safely use the Reality Gem.

To use your analogy, the perfect dribbler would have all his senses fully functional, while the perfect player would lack a sense of touch or sight making his attempts dribbling either perfect, or completely unsuccessful due to the lack of appropriate info concerning the ball.

Originally posted by darthgoober
That doesn't really matter though. Even with that level of understanding you NEED the info gained by the other gems to safely use the Reality Gem.

To use your analogy, the perfect dribbler would have all his senses fully functional, while the perfect player would lack a sense of touch or sight making his attempts dribbling either perfect, or completely unsuccessful due to the lack of appropriate info concerning the ball.

May I ask where exactly are you getting that you need the other gems in order to use the reality gem?

For a description, Thanos merely states: "I dream and it will be."

He also demonstrated some of it's power to the Collector after he acquired it from him. He wasn't using any of the other gems' power along with it.

I would think it requires a great deal of knowledge about it in order to properly use it, which Thanos did have after staring into the Reality Nexus. But I'm not exactly sure you NEED the other gems in order to use the reality gem.

Originally posted by batdude123
May I ask where exactly are you getting that you need the other gems in order to use the reality gem?

For a description, Thanos merely states: "I dream and it will be."

He also demonstrated some of it's power to the Collector after he acquired it from him. He wasn't using any of the other gems' power along with it.

I would think it requires a great deal of knowledge about it in order to properly use it, which Thanos did have after staring into the Reality Nexus. But I'm not exactly sure you NEED the other gems in order to use the reality gem.

You just need them in order not to destroy everything.

Originally posted by batdude123
May I ask where exactly are you getting that you need the other gems in order to use the reality gem?

For a description, Thanos merely states: "I dream and it will be."

He also demonstrated some of it's power to the Collector after he acquired it from him. He wasn't using any of the other gems' power along with it.

I would think it requires a great deal of knowledge about it in order to properly use it, which Thanos did have after staring into the Reality Nexus. But I'm not exactly sure you NEED the other gems in order to use the reality gem.
It's not impossible to use it on its own, just dangerous(as Warlock and LT confirm)...

http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/6606/warlockchronicles120hx6.th.jpg

http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/1526/warlockinfinitywatch110zw8.th.jpg

Originally posted by darthgoober
It's not impossible to use it on its own, just dangerous(as Warlock and LT confirm)...

http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/6606/warlockchronicles120hx6.th.jpg

http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/1526/warlockinfinitywatch110zw8.th.jpg

Ah, I was a bit unsure of what you meant earlier.

But again, that kind of misses the point of my previous post. If the time and space gems did not exist (for the sake of argument), the Infinity Guantlet would be capable of EXACTLY the same thing because... what is reality but time and space?

Originally posted by batdude123
what is reality but time and space?

Concept.

Originally posted by batdude123
Ah, I was a bit unsure of what you meant earlier.

But again, that kind of misses the point of my previous post. If the time and space gems did not exist, the Infinity Guantlet would be capable of EXACTLY the same thing because... what is reality but time and space?
Oh yeah, it would have all the same capabilities. It would just be EXTREMELY risky to try to alter those two aspects of reality(with a time/spce rift the likely end result).

Originally posted by batdude123
I think you're misinterpreting the intention of my post, leo. I accpet the fact that all six of the Infinity gems put together make you a master over everything. That's fine, and I'm not going to argue that point. The purpose of the space and time gems being a part of the IG is something I have no problem with.

All I'm saying, is that THEORETICALLY, with the reality gem backed up by the power gem, it should allow complete mastery over reality. This includes time and space.

If Starlin meant for reality to be something other than the actual denotation of it being the time/space continuum, that's cool. However, if you truly think about it from a logical and theoretical standpoint, unlimited and absolute control over reality should include both time and space.

The only logical explanation for having the space and time gems along with the reality gem in my opinion, is what Master said earlier. To expand the scope of power from a universal level to a multiversal level.

Even when Thanos described the reality gem's functions, in the artwork, Ron Lim depicted Thanos' explanation of the time gem along with all of the other gems inside Thanos' head.

http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thanosquest243bi6.jpg

It's almost as if Starlin accepted the fact that time, along with everything else is a part of reality.

But, I digress. Either way, doesn't really matter. It takes ALL six gems to make the Infinity Guantlet.

i can almost buy the scope, but that then places boundaries on the RG's ability to affect 'all of reality'. that also doesn't make sense.

i think you see where i'm going, though bats. i said that to view reality logically (real-world, as you are) WOULD imply that the RG would give control over both time and space, but that control would necessarily be absolute by definition of the gem's abilities. there would be no need (as you have said) for time or space gems.

however, the evidence contradicts your view -- ie -- there IS a time and space gem. and because there IS, the gems can NOT be redundant. that leaves the question then of what do they do? increase scope? doesn't make sense. add control? i could almost buy that. add something that the reality gem itself doesn't have? like what? i dunno. it's why i like the idea that reality has been broken up differently.

goob references the mar-vell resurrection. maybe thanos simply recreated him -- altered reality so that he wasn't dead. can't recall the contect exactly off-hand.

as far as the scan you showed goob, about things going out of control -- that is what was missing. not ability, or power -- control. could someone 100% proficient in the use of the gems, with the power gem backing them, do anything with the OTHER gems that the RG wielder could do? logically, the only answer is yes. i can't recall the full context of that scan, but it stands to reason someone perfectly adept at using time/space/mind/soul/power could do anything the RG wielder could do. what other aspects exist that would be OUTSIDE their domain?

maybe they DO add some sort of simple 'sensory input' as goob is saying. that seems to me to go against their pre-supposed natures though. the only thing that is truly clear is that all of them together are stronger than the individual pieces.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Concept.

Concept isn't tangible. Reality isn't made up of an idea.

Originally posted by batdude123
Concept isn't tangible. Reality isn't made up of an idea.

That doesn't mean it's not part of reality. With the RealityGem it should be possible to alter truth.

Originally posted by darthgoober
It's not impossible to use it on its own, just dangerous(as Warlock and LT confirm)...

http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/6606/warlockchronicles120hx6.th.jpg

http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/1526/warlockinfinitywatch110zw8.th.jpg

these scans go back to my butter knife analogy -- the reality gem is like a broad edged weapon -- the time and space gems are scapels that add control. i've no problem with that idea.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That doesn't mean it's not part of reality. With the RealityGem it should be possible to alter truth.

Basically correct. I assumed you were trying to tell me reality was MADE UP of a concept.

Originally posted by batdude123
Concept isn't tangible. Reality isn't made up of an idea.

we don't know WHAT it's made of. and you keep distinguishing between them. at their base levels they are spacetime, not space AND time.

what is spacetime made of? who knows. strings of vibrating energy? wave patterns? i dunno, but i'm guessing the infinity being knew.

Originally posted by leonidas
these scans go back to my butter knife analogy -- the reality gem is like a broad edged weapon -- the time and space gems are scapels that add control. i've no problem with that idea.

Originally posted by batdude123
Basically correct. I assumed you were trying to tell me reality was MADE UP of a concept.

reality is a VERY subjective beast -- like time itself is, and by association, space. it could be argued that it IS a concept.

Originally posted by leonidas
we don't know WHAT it's made of. and you keep distinguishing between them. at their base levels they are spacetime, not space AND time.

what is spacetime made of? who knows. strings of vibrating energy? wave patterns? i dunno, but i'm guessing the infinity being knew.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t49/SymmetricChaos/catgirls.gif

Originally posted by leonidas

goob references the mar-vell resurrection. maybe thanos simply recreated him -- altered reality so that he wasn't dead. can't recall the contect exactly off-hand.
But it wasn't just require Mar-Vell not being dead. If that were the case Mar-Vell would have returned to life at either his place death or in his grave, but that wasn't the case. He was brought to life at a completely different point in space. His spirit and mind were intact.

Originally posted by leonidas


as far as the scan you showed goob, about things going out of control -- that is what was missing. not ability, or power -- control. could someone 100% proficient in the use of the gems, with the power gem backing them, do anything with the OTHER gems that the RG wielder could do? logically, the only answer is yes. i can't recall the full context of that scan, but it stands to reason someone perfectly adept at using time/space/mind/soul/power could do anything the RG wielder could do. what other aspects exist that would be OUTSIDE their domain?
The laws of the universe itself would still be outside their control. In other words there's no gem other than the Reality Gem that could make 2+2=Yellow.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t49/SymmetricChaos/catgirls.gif

how's a guy supposed to live with something like that on his conscience . . .cry




















ps--BATS was the one who brought up real-world logic first!




















cry

Originally posted by leonidas
reality is a VERY subjective beast -- like time itself is, and by association, space. it could be argued that it IS a concept.

So reality- everything that is as we know it... Earth, our solar system, the Milky Way, the universe... is nothing but an idea or principle? Space cannot be made up of something abstract like thought. It must hold a certain energy or dimension of the universe.

Damn it leo, these conversations suck!

Originally posted by darthgoober
But it wasn't just require Mar-Vell not being dead. If that were the case Mar-Vell would have returned to life at either his place death or in his grave, but that wasn't the case. He was brought to life at a completely different point in space. His spirit and mind were intact.

not necessarily. you're saying 2+2=yellow, but that he couldn't just recreate mar-vell? hmmm . . .




laws of the universe=manipulation of all aspects of the universe. there MAY be aspects that the reality gem covers that the others don't but i don't know what they are -- nor do i think there were INTENDED to be others based on how the gems are described.

and i don't believe the reality gem COULD make 2+2=yellow. it's an impossibility. like asking if god can make a rock so heavy even he couldn't lift it. it's a paradox of language.

anywho, interesting discussion.

Originally posted by batdude123
So reality- everything that is as we know it... Earth, our solar system, the Milky Way, the universe... is nothing but an idea or principle? Space cannot be tangible made up of something abstract like thought.

Damn it leo, these conversations suck!



but WHOSE idea and concept . . .?

Originally posted by leonidas
and i don't believe the reality gem COULD make 2+2=yellow. it's an impossibility. like asking if god can make a rock so heavy even he couldn't lift it. it's a paradox of language.

I think that's just it though.

The RG can alter truth but not fact. The fact of our reality is that 2+2=4.

The facts of a reality where a person using the IG had declared that 2+2=Fish was truth would make sense as well and it wouldn't be possible to imagine 2+2 equaling 4.

Probably why it's considered so dangerous since if you alter something as basic as truth things can go haywire unless you have to understanding to use it. The best way to get the perspective and understanding needed is to be part of space, part of time, part of every mind and part of every soul. Once you understand all of that it's possible to actually use the RG in a practical manner.

Originally posted by leonidas
we don't know WHAT it's made of. and you keep distinguishing between them. at their base levels they are spacetime, not space AND time.

what is spacetime made of? who knows. strings of vibrating energy? wave patterns? i dunno, but i'm guessing the infinity being knew.

Well, the spacetime continuum is thought of as one dimension of time and three dimensions of space. The two are just squeezed together in one word form. 313

Originally posted by leonidas


but WHOSE idea and concept . . .?



















































Adam West's? lookaround

Originally posted by leonidas
not necessarily. you're saying 2+2=yellow, but that he couldn't just recreate mar-vell? hmmm . . .
No I'm saying that he DID recreate Mar-Vell, and he manipulated the various aspects of reality governed by the other gems to do so.


Originally posted by leonidas

laws of the universe=manipulation of all aspects of the universe. there MAY be aspects that the reality gem coers that the others don't but i don't know what they are.

and i don't believe the reality gem COULD make 2+2=yellow. it's an impossibility. like asking if god can make a rock so heavy even he couldn't lift it. it's a paradox of language.
Changing the laws of the universe>>>Manipulating the various aspects within the boundary's of the established laws of the universe.

And the 2+2=Yellow thing was just an example, I don't understand how it could work either. But then again our perceptions are bound to the established laws of reality, we might understand it better if we weren't .

Originally posted by leonidas

anywho, interesting discussion.
I know. That's the whole reason I pointed you to this thread in the first place. I've been starving for intellectual stimulation for a while now and I know you and several others are a fan of this kind of thing so there'd be a good chance one of these long unresolvable debates would take place .

Originally posted by leonidas
i can almost buy the scope, but that then places boundaries on the RG's ability to affect 'all of reality'. that also doesn't make sense.

i think you see where i'm going, though bats. i said that to view reality logically (real-world, as you are) WOULD imply that the RG would give control over both time and space, but that control would necessarily be absolute by definition of the gem's abilities. there would be no need (as you have said) for time or space gems.

Yes, that's all I was saying in the first place. If the comic writer's used real world logic, there'd be no need for a space and a time gem with the reality gem.

Say a person had COMPLETE MASTERY over the reality gem without being hampered by how to control and harness that power... why the f*ck would that person need a space or a time gem? Huh? HUH?!! HUH??!!!

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I think that's just it though.

The RG can alter truth but not fact. The fact of our reality is that 2+2=4.

The facts of a reality where a person using the IG had declared that 2+2=Fish was truth would make sense as well and it wouldn't be possible to imagine 2+2 equaling 4.

Probably why it's considered so dangerous since if you alter something as basic as truth things can go haywire unless you have to understanding to use it. The best way to get the perspective and understanding needed is to be part of space, part of time, part of every mind and part of every soul. Once you understand all of that it's possible to actually use the RG in a practical manner.

I like this explanation.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I like this explanation.
It's a good explanation.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I like this explanation.

I don't.

Originally posted by batdude123
I don't.

Yeah but you suck anyway

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Yeah but you suck anyway

Yeah... well.... NOBODY LIKES YOU!!! mhm

Originally posted by batdude123
Yeah... well.... NOBODY LIKES YOU!!! mhm

*has an existential breakdown*

*goes off to sulk/bask in own glory*

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I like this explanation.

imagine my shock.

okay, mr paradox (like symmetric chaos isn't a paradox . . .) CAN thanos with the IG make a rock so heavy even HE couldn't left it . . .



and goob -- these discussions ARE fun. and a much needed break from the tourney . . . 'stuff'.

i still disagree 2+2 can be made to equal yellow though.