Hawkeye vs Punisher

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



willRules
Punisher gets a range of weapons, pistols, knifes, shotgun, machine gun etc. he has a basic pistol with unlimited ammo. Hawkeye gets a sonic explosion arrow, a few explosive arrows a net arrow and an unlimited supply of regular arrows.

They fight in the Savage land without prep
They fight in a crowded city street with prep
They fight in a a factory full of fully functioning kill everyone sentinels, without prep
They fight on the roofs of New York city without prep


Who wins in each scenario??????????

willRules
IMO it goes in order of scenario

Punisher 6/10
Hawkeye 9/10
Hawkeye 6/10
Punisher 5 or 6/10

srankmissingnin
Punisher for the majority in all scenarios

Jimmy Buggs
Punisher never looses in the savage land
and Hawkeye never looses on the roof tops.
others two can go ether way.

juggernaut74
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Punisher for the majority in all scenarios I agree, but they are good fights.

The Nuul
They fight in the Savage land without prep: Hawk throws a tree at Frank, killing him.

They fight in a crowded city street with prep: Hawk throws a car at Frank, killing him.

They fight in a a factory full of fully functioning kill everyone sentinels, without prep: Hawk throws a sentinel at Frank, killing him.

They fight on the roofs of New York city without prep: Hawk throws a building at Frank, killing him.

SamZED
Ugh.. one panel of Hawkeye training with Cap and he's Bruce Lee all of a sudden.


Frank wins.

inimalist
this thread makes me cry...

also, this:

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Punisher for the majority in all scenarios

The Nuul
Originally posted by SamZED
Ugh.. one panel of Hawkeye training with Cap and he's Bruce Lee all of a sudden.


Frank wins.

No, he lifted a car with one arm.

Deadline
Originally posted by juggernaut74
I agree, but they are good fights.

He would stomp in Savage land.

Leave Punisher in the jungle with a knife and he can create traps.
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/2231/punmakestraps1.th.jpghttp://img651.imageshack.us/img651/3697/punmakestraps2.th.jpg

Originally posted by The Nuul
No, he lifted a car with one arm.

Um that might be Paladin.

inimalist
Originally posted by Deadline
He would stomp

period

Deadline
I dunno think that might be a bit unfair. That sonic arrow could be tricky.

inimalist
could be, yes

maybe for 1-2/10 in the best cases...

idk, my bias toward modern technology over that 13th century is probably showing here, but I don't see Hawkeye shooting too many volleys

juggernaut74
They had sonic arrows in the 13th century?

inimalist
I really don't see the "sonic-arrow-arguement" as being too convincing in a series of scenarios I can't help but interpret as "how long until Punisher guns down Hawkeye in this location?"

juggernaut74
Originally posted by inimalist
I really don't see the "sonic-arrow-arguement" as being too convincing in a series of scenarios I can't help but interpret as "how long until Punisher guns down Hawkeye in this location?" I don't either.

inimalist
but fair enough, they probably didn't have sonic arrows in the 13th century

Omega Vision
Originally posted by inimalist
but fair enough, they probably didn't have sonic arrows in the 13th century
Well if those ******* Romans hadn't killed Archimedes who knows. stick out tongue

SamZED
Originally posted by The Nuul
No, he lifted a car with one arm. He didnt really lift the whole car, meaning it wasnt completely off the ground. Impressive but not something that makes him > Frank. If this comes down to h2h I see Frank outlasting him.

753
Originally posted by SamZED
He didnt really lift the whole car, meaning it wasnt completely off the ground. Impressive but not something that makes him > Frank. If this comes down to h2h I see Frank outlasting him. he was under a car and he pushed it up to get out with one hand. that's class 4 or 5

SamZED
Originally posted by 753
he was under a car and he pushed it up to get out with one hand. that's class 4 or 5 4?? Really strong real-life humans can push cars the way he did except with two hands instead of one. That's a peak human feat by comicbook standarts.

StiltmanFTW
No, that was a legitimate superhuman feat. And it was implied earlier Clint ain't a normal human.

SamZED
What makes it superhuman? If he lifted the whole car off the ground Id agree. But this is not something DD or Batman couldnt do.

753
Originally posted by SamZED
4?? Really strong real-life humans can push cars the way he did except with two hands instead of one. That's a peak human feat by comicbook standarts. no they can't, what the hell are you talking about?

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by SamZED
What makes it superhuman? If he lifted the whole car off the ground Id agree. But this is not something DD or Batman couldnt do.

The fact that he lifted it in crouching position with one arm and the fact that Bendis doesn't actually treat peak humans as borderline metas.

Deadline
Great so Clint has one really impressive strength feat. Clint FTW. erm

I also forgot Punisher can shoot Spiderman. Clint loses.

SamZED
Originally posted by 753
no they can't, what the hell are you talking about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD16PMLt2aM&feature=related#t=01m51s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tls-Jli6eQE&feature=related#t=01m32s

Is that so hard to believe that comicbook peak humans who are usually x4stronger than real-life ones could lift a car (not completely off the ground) with one hand?


Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
The fact that he lifted it in crouching position with one arm and the fact that Bendis doesn't actually treat peak humans as borderline metas. Bendis does true, but still dont see this feat as something beyond cb peak humans.

JakeTheBank
Bendispower Clint is a beast, though...

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by SamZED
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD16PMLt2aM&feature=related#t=01m51s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tls-Jli6eQE&feature=related#t=01m32s

Is that so hard to believe that comicbook peak humans who are usually x4stronger than real-life one could lift a car (not completely off the ground) with one hand?


Bendis does, but still dont see this feat as something beyond cb peak humans.

Try to do that while lying under the car erm

Originally posted by SamZED
Bendis does true, but still dont see this feat as something beyond cb peak humans.

Okay.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Bendispower Clint is a beast, though...

thumb up

Deadline
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Bendispower Clint is a beast, though...

You might be right (Avengers The List), but Remender Punisher is better.

SamZED
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Try to do that while lying under the car erm
There was a crater, not like he was trapped. Also

Is that so hard to believe that comicbook peak humans who are usually x4 stronger than real-life ones could lift a car when even real-life ones can lift two?

inimalist
for the sake of argument, say Clint is a 4-5 tonner... Do you give him the win? is that really the determining factor here?

753
Originally posted by SamZED
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD16PMLt2aM&feature=related#t=01m51s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tls-Jli6eQE&feature=related#t=01m32s

Is that so hard to believe that comicbook peak humans who are usually x4stronger than real-life ones could lift a car (not completely off the ground) with one hand?


Bendis does true, but still dont see this feat as something beyond cb peak humans. that guy is using his whole body to do that. clint used an arm, he was under the car and had no leverage. pulling things that are aleady rolling is actually easy to do, even regular people can pull buses that way for some meters.

753
Originally posted by inimalist
for the sake of argument, say Clint is a 4-5 tonner... Do you give him the win? is that really the determining factor here? no, punisher wins because this wont go into mellee

Bentley
Clint wtf murders Punisher in every scenario. Arrows for the win.

Deadline
Meh again.

Bentley
Originally posted by Deadline
Meh again.


Magnetic arrow. Punisher no longer plays.

Bentley
Originally posted by 753
no, punisher wins because this wont go into mellee


Punisher cannot beat Clint on ranged fight though...

inimalist
Originally posted by Bentley
Punisher cannot beat Clint on ranged fight though...

rly?

753
Originally posted by Bentley
Punisher cannot beat Clint on ranged fight though... punisher shoots him dead. Why? cause he carries guns

jinzin
Originally posted by Bentley
Punisher cannot beat Clint on ranged fight though... Originally posted by 753
punisher shoots him dead. Why? cause he carries guns

laughing out loud

Bentley
Originally posted by 753
punisher shoots him dead. Why? cause he carries guns


Hawkeye has fought enough guns to prove his value, heck, he has intercepted sniper bullets in mid flight with his arrows.

inimalist
Originally posted by Bentley
Hawkeye has fought enough guns to prove his value, heck, he has intercepted sniper bullets in mid flight with his arrows.

does he have any other feats that would lead us to believe this possible for him?

so, for instance, tagging an small object in mid flight that is moving faster than the speed of sound?

EDIT: like, this insinuates that Hawkeye can somehow either see an object going to fast for humans to see or hear an object moving so fast it arrives at its target before the sound of the shot. Or, he has some type of precognitive/psychic sense that allows him to line up a sniper shot before it is taken. Without giving Hawkeye some huge boost in powers, which in any other situation that doesn't involve bullets he doesn't have, the only way this could happen is if a sniper shot at his arrow as he had it pulled back in the bow.

Like, its some weird "suspension of disbelief" going on between these two characters. We are supposed to believe that a comic representation of an archer is in fact far better than any human could ever hope to be, yet we are to believe that someone with a gun is in fact far worse in comics than they are in real life. A soldier with even modest training should be able to kill someone like Hawkeye with modest difficulty, unless Clint uses the environment exceptionally well. Someone like Punisher, whose "superpower" is essentially being a better soldier than humanly possible, should have no difficulty whatsoever

/rant

Bentley
I think HE actually intercepted the bullet by aiming at the gun socket, but it's hard to tell from the panels. You're seriously underestimating HE comic abilities if you think a guy with a gun can beat him, the guy has crazy weaponry... He shoots a magnetic arrow, Punisher no longer has weapons, what happens next?

inimalist
Originally posted by Bentley
I think HE actually intercepted the bullet by aiming at the gun socket, but it's hard to tell from the panels.

so essentially the same as the guy shooting at his arrow....

Originally posted by Bentley
You're seriously underestimating HE comic abilities if you think a guy with a gun can beat him, the guy has crazy weaponry...

I can almost guarantee that the guns he was fighting against were jobbers stick out tongue

Originally posted by Bentley
He shoots a magnetic arrow, Punisher no longer has weapons, what happens next?

the metal used in guns tends to be steel, which isn't itself magnetic, though has Iron components, meaning it might be magnetic to some degree, but I have never seen a gun put next to a magnet, so no idea... Bullets aren't. most long guns have polymer parts in the stock, handle and other pieces that aren't the mechanisms of shooting a bullet, and modern hand guns are often made entirely of a polymer substance. Using a magnet to get rid of Punisher's guns is iffy, at best, provided Clint even gets a clean shot at Punisher (he can't force him into cover, he can't shoot as fast as a gun , HE has to pretty much take Punisher unawares and in a single shot )

So, my answer is, he shoots a magnetic arrow, giving away his position and gets shot 3 times in the chest from a single burst of whichever AR Punisher is brandishing at the time. Maybe the magnet pulls on the gun a bit... throwing off Punisher's aim slightly and forcing him to fire 2-3 bursts...

Bentley
Originally posted by inimalist
so essentially the same as the guy shooting at his arrow....

Except HE's arrows can blow up at midflight and he can shoot several at once.




Originally posted by inimalist
the metal used in guns tends to be steel, which isn't itself magnetic, though has Iron components, meaning it might be magnetic to some degree, but I have never seen a gun put next to a magnet, so no idea... Bullets aren't. most long guns have polymer parts in the stock, handle and other pieces that aren't the mechanisms of shooting a bullet, and modern hand guns are often made entirely of a polymer substance. Using a magnet to get rid of Punisher's guns is iffy, at best, provided Clint even gets a clean shot at Punisher (he can't force him into cover, he can't shoot as fast as a gun , HE has to pretty much take Punisher unawares and in a single shot )

So, my answer is, he shoots a magnetic arrow, giving away his position and gets shot 3 times in the chest from a single burst of whichever AR Punisher is brandishing at the time. Maybe the magnet pulls on the gun a bit... throwing off Punisher's aim slightly and forcing him to fire 2-3 bursts...

HE's magnetic arrows have already affected guns taking them off the user's very hands since their first appearance, the whole point of the arrow is that it disarms the opponent. Also, HE can angle shoot, making it harder for Frank to know where his position is at the moment he shoots.

Most of arguments in favor of Frank are reduced to "guns beat arrows", but that's hardly the final argument considering we are talking about a comic character like Clint. Clint has Bullseye-like accuracy and equipment that can give classic Iron Man a pause, it might not seem like it, but his equipment is better than Frank's.

SamZED
Originally posted by 753
that guy is using his whole body to do that. clint used an arm, he was under the car and had no leverage. pulling things that are aleady rolling is actually easy to do, even regular people can pull buses that way for some meters. He had leverage, he was in a crater. I know he did it with one hand, while those guys used both hands, but cb peak humans >>> real-life peak humans. This is a good feat but not a superhuman one.

753
Originally posted by SamZED
He had leverage, he was in a crater. I know he did it with one hand, while those guys used both hands, but cb peak humans >>> real-life peak humans. This is a good feat but not a superhuman one. those guys used their legs, back and arms. HE used one arm from an akward position. he was lying down

SamZED
Originally posted by 753
those guys used their legs, back and arms. HE used one arm from an akward position. he was lying down Because he's a comicbook peak human unlike these guys who are just human. You believe the feat makes him class 4?

753
Originally posted by SamZED
Because he's a comicbook peak human unlike these guys who are just human. You believe the feat makes him class 4? yes, I believe a guy who can casually raise 1,5 ton with one arm while laying down underneath it can raise 4 tons above his head and throw them.

SamZED
Originally posted by 753
yes, I believe a guy who can casually raise 1,5 ton with one arm while laying down underneath it can raise 4 tons above his head and throw them. Lets agree to disagree then. IMO its just a bit more impressive than what these guys did but nothing that'd make him that much stronger than Frank or any other trained comicbook human.

inimalist
Originally posted by Bentley
Except HE's arrows can blow up at midflight and he can shoot several at once.

I'd imagine even with a pistol, Frank could take more than Hawkeye could fire arrows in a span of longer than "instantly". Explosives would be nice, but would HE go for a kill shot against punisher? (obviously this goes both ways too, which helps HE a lot) Punisher is no stranger to explosives or being blowed up, and his damage soak is ridiculous. Short of blowing a hole out of him with an arrow, I don't suppose those arrows are going to be any more effective at taking down frank than have countless grenades, bombs, mines, etc.

Originally posted by Bentley
HE's magnetic arrows have already affected guns taking them off the user's very hands since their first appearance, the whole point of the arrow is that it disarms the opponent.

fair enough... just a cynical observation though... By forum rules, Frank is better off trying to rush HE with a plank of wood than he is trying to use what are some of the most efficient killing tools ever known to man, simply because even non-powered heroes can walk through automatic fire in a comic...

Originally posted by Bentley
Also, HE can angle shoot, making it harder for Frank to know where his position is at the moment he shoots.

true, but in a situation where both are under cover trying to locate the other, I'm still giving Frank the advantage in spotting HE's position if they are firing. Frank really only has to worry about muzzle flash and noise, whereas HE has to pull back and arrow and maneuver the bow. Frank's soldier experience is also much more apt for this type of thing, as locating the source of gunfire in the middle of a jungle might be harder than finding arrowfire in a city (though, maybe not)

Originally posted by Bentley
Most of arguments in favor of Frank are reduced to "guns beat arrows", but that's hardly the final argument considering we are talking about a comic character like Clint. Clint has Bullseye-like accuracy and equipment that can give classic Iron Man a pause, it might not seem like it, but his equipment is better than Frank's.

well, ok, fine. If HE has magic "I disarm you arrows", can fire at 90 degree angles, etc, sure, his equipment is better in terms of "comics make his equipment better". I don't think it comes down to just "guns beak arrows" though.

Scenario 1: Savage land, no prep. The environment slants this for Punisher anyways, his stealth probably gives him a significant number of Ws even if he is just using the knife, not to mention traps and such. Punisher is also an expert on human psychology as it relates to combat, and is shown to be able to predict his target's responses almost prophetically. In this scenario, I'd suspect Punisher lays traps in such a way that it draws HE into a highly vulnerable position, where he is a sitting duck for Frank.

Scenario 2: City, with prep. maybe I'm wrong, but HE doesn't strike me as a huge prep guy, whereas Punisher uses this type of prep almost every time he goes after a target. This is the same as the Savage land, only now punisher has prep time to set up how he is going to draw HE out and take him down. Civilians really only limit his use of explosives (HE too) and suppressive fire, and provide just as much cover to him as they do HE.

Scenario 3: tbh, we'd have to know more about the killbots...

Scenario 4: Probably HEs best chance, but still, rooftops are far more open than is a jungle or city, and that doesn't really benefit HE as much as it does punisher.

like, its not "guns beat arrows", Punisher's showings would put him at least at HE's level. Heaven forbid it becomes a h2h fight, as Punisher is not only highly skilled, but can take more damage than I'm thinking HE will give out. The issue where he is being chased by Sentry comes to mind off the top of my head. Disarmed or not, I'm fairly confident that is one of the biggest deciding factors here. HE probably (without killing frank) can't do enough damage to put him down before Frank does enough to put him down.

Deadline
^ God Damn ini you know you're Punisher quite well.

Originally posted by 753
yes, I believe a guy who can casually raise 1,5 ton with one arm while laying down underneath it can raise 4 tons above his head and throw them.

It doesn't even matter if that was a class 4 feat, you don't get to become class 4 when every other feat you have suggests otherwise.

inimalist
Originally posted by Deadline
^ God Damn ini you know you're Punisher quite well.

not really, I just have a hard-on for guns wink

Bentley
Originally posted by inimalist
I'd imagine even with a pistol, Frank could take more than Hawkeye could fire arrows in a span of longer than "instantly". Explosives would be nice, but would HE go for a kill shot against punisher? (obviously this goes both ways too, which helps HE a lot) Punisher is no stranger to explosives or being blowed up, and his damage soak is ridiculous. Short of blowing a hole out of him with an arrow, I don't suppose those arrows are going to be any more effective at taking down frank than have countless grenades, bombs, mines, etc.


I think there are two arguments which work pretty well in Frank's favor, one would be stealth and tracking. If Frank is in an scenario where he can avoid being spotted he has a good chance of winning, sure, HE will give him trouble but it helps Frank a lot. Regarding possible OHKO weapons I can think gas arrows from the top of my head.

Yep, several of the scenarios actually give Frank a very good chance, the jungle one is completely in his favor and he should get the majority. The prep discussion is hard to say, HE has resources from the Avengers, which can bring a Quinjet at the very least and he's an accomplished pilot. I agree Frank is an excellent prepper.

The rooftop battle is the one that it's great for HE, he's acrobatic, he has excellent mobility, can use grappling hooks and is excellent with ranged weapons. Clint should sweep that one in my opinion.

In a ranged combat however, I heavily favor Clint, he just needs a glimpse and he can take Frank pretty much at any distance; it all comes down to stealth imo.

Deadline
Originally posted by Bentley
Except HE's arrows can blow up at midflight and he can shoot several at once.






HE's magnetic arrows have already affected guns taking them off the user's very hands since their first appearance, the whole point of the arrow is that it disarms the opponent. Also, HE can angle shoot, making it harder for Frank to know where his position is at the moment he shoots.

Most of arguments in favor of Frank are reduced to "guns beat arrows", but that's hardly the final argument considering we are talking about a comic character like Clint. Clint has Bullseye-like accuracy and equipment that can give classic Iron Man a pause, it might not seem like it, but his equipment is better than Frank's.


I'm tnot sure he will be fast enough to do that to a guy that can easily shoot people with superhuman speed. I think there are ways of getting around eg use a grenade, also it can depend on how Punisher is aiming eg shots crouched down.

inimalist
Originally posted by Bentley
In a ranged combat however, I heavily favor Clint, he just needs a glimpse and he can take Frank pretty much at any distance; it all comes down to stealth imo.

but if we go by Frank's showings with guns, as opposed to bulletdodging feats, HE is just as much a sitting duck, and can't soak bullets the way Frank can arrows

Deadline
Originally posted by inimalist
but if we go by Frank's showings with guns, as opposed to bulletdodging feats, HE is just as much a sitting duck, and can't soak bullets the way Frank can arrows

Punisher has some really good dodging feats. Hes dodged gunfire from Bullseye. I have to say I was quite suprised myself. If we look at some of his recent showings he could probably evade some of Hawkeyes arrows.

inimalist
eh, if I'm arguing against bulletdodging one way, I have to go both ways. I have no problem saying HE is faster and more agile, but neither of these characters should be fast enough to actually dodge the others well aimed projectiles.

Bentley
Originally posted by Deadline
I'm tnot sure he will be fast enough to do that to a guy that can easily shoot people with superhuman speed. I think there are ways of getting around eg use a grenade, also it can depend on how Punisher is aiming eg shots crouched down.


Depending on the distance, I don't see speed being much of a factor, HE is quite fast himself.

Originally posted by inimalist
but if we go by Frank's showings with guns, as opposed to bulletdodging feats, HE is just as much a sitting duck, and can't soak bullets the way Frank can arrows

HE's aim and ranged weapons are much more troublesome to Frank's damage soak than Punisher bullets would be for HE. I mean, a sequence of sonic/gas/electric arrows would give even Wolerine troubles

Deadline
Originally posted by inimalist
eh, if I'm arguing against bulletdodging one way, I have to go both ways. I have no problem saying HE is faster and more agile, but neither of these characters should be fast enough to actually dodge the others well aimed projectiles.

You know what Hawkeye is more agile but I don't think you can prove hes faster. There is more proof that Punisher can dodge Hawkeyes arrows than there is proof that Hawkeye can dodge Punishers bullets. If Pun pulls his gun Hawkeye is probably dead unless he uses those mag arrows...which I've never seen him use before.

Originally posted by Bentley

The rooftop battle is the one that it's great for HE, he's acrobatic, he has excellent mobility, can use grappling hooks and is excellent with ranged weapons. Clint should sweep that one in my opinion.

In a ranged combat however, I heavily favor Clint, he just needs a glimpse and he can take Frank pretty much at any distance; it all comes down to stealth imo.

Pun is fast enough to dodge some of those attacks and has hit people faster than Hawkeye with his fists and guns.

Bentley
Originally posted by Deadline
You know what Hawkeye is more agile but I don't think you can prove hes faster. There is more proof that Punisher can dodge Hawkeyes arrows than there is proof that Hawkeye can dodge Punishers bullets. If Pun pulls his gun Hawkeye is probably dead unless he uses those mag arrows...which I've never seen him use before.



Pun is fast enough to dodge some of those attacks and has hit people faster than Hawkeye with his fists and guns.


You've read more Punisher than HE to be fair big grin

HE has dealt with people faster than Punisher, those arguments are hardly important considering I see distance being the main factor. If I cited the arrows I did, it's because they have an area of effect much greater than bullets, they are waaaay much harder to dodge.

Deadline
Originally posted by Bentley
Depending on the distance, I don't see speed being much of a factor, HE is quite fast himself.



Hes not faster than Spiderman, Sabretooth, Wolverine or Captain America, sorry HE is toast. Hell Punisher has beaten Bushwacker to the draw hes basically an master gun shooter.

Master gun shooter > Master arrow shooter

inimalist
Originally posted by Bentley
HE's aim and ranged weapons are much more troublesome to Frank's damage soak than Punisher bullets would be for HE. I mean, a sequence of sonic/gas/electric arrows would give even Wolerine troubles

I suppose we disagree on this...

a bullet in the arm (god, this doesn't hold up in movies, why would I think it would in comics) should make shooting arrows next to impossible. The chest is considered a kill zone, as is the head. Most gut shots are fatal and incredibly incapacitating. A bullet in the leg reduces HE's mobility to essentially crawling. Or, I suppose, it should.

I suppose I'm expecting too realistic of an outcome, rather than what scans would suggest. In Punisher comics, this tends to be how things work, imho, unless the character is a known "damage soak" (though, iirc, getting shot does normally mess punisher up in a modestly realistic way... I might be thinking too much of MAX)

Bentley
Originally posted by Deadline
Master gun shooter > Master arrow shooter

Make it unerring master grenade launcher.

osalivan
top-achtung.blogspot.com

Bentley
Originally posted by inimalist
I suppose we disagree on this...

a bullet in the arm (god, this doesn't hold up in movies, why would I think it would in comics) should make shooting arrows next to impossible. The chest is considered a kill zone, as is the head. Most gut shots are fatal and incredibly incapacitating. A bullet in the leg reduces HE's mobility to essentially crawling. Or, I suppose, it should.

I suppose I'm expecting too realistic of an outcome, rather than what scans would suggest. In Punisher comics, this tends to be how things work, imho, unless the character is a known "damage soak" (though, iirc, getting shot does normally mess punisher up in a modestly realistic way... I might be thinking too much of MAX)


I agree with you about the real life point, I'm discussing mostly with comics in mind in which Clint does quite well against bullets.

Deadline
Originally posted by Bentley
You've read more Punisher than HE to be fair big grin


You sure about that? I was have read several years worth of West Coast Avengers , I've read Solo Avengers which featured Hawkeye. Not to mention some really old Avengers issues, Secret Wars etc etc.

Thats a shitload of Hawkeye. I only go on about Punisher because hes underated, so people assume that I've only read Punisher.

Originally posted by Bentley

HE has dealt with people faster than Punisher, those arguments are hardly important considering I see distance being the main factor. If I cited the arrows I did, it's because they have an area of effect much greater than bullets, they are waaaay much harder to dodge.

Like who? Taskmaster used HEs skill but couldn't hit Spiderman without tactics. Also an agile tactician can be harder to hit then an opponent who is faster with raw speed.

inimalist
Originally posted by Deadline
You know what Hawkeye is more agile but I don't think you can prove hes faster. There is more proof that Punisher can dodge Hawkeyes arrows than there is proof that Hawkeye can dodge Punishers bullets. If Pun pulls his gun Hawkeye is probably dead unless he uses those mag arrows...which I've never seen him use before.

I tend to agree with your last point, as Punisher can accurately fire 2 M16s from the hip, I see him as being much quicker to the punch and accurate enough to tag HE at any reasonable distance, but I can't agree with the first, if nothing more than on principle.

Both Punisher and HE are shown as beyond master of what they do, to the point that they essentially have the superpower of "archer" or "soldier". Their mastery of their weapons and constant showings of uncanny accuracy supersedes what I would call moot feats. All heroes dodge bullets and lasers, so much so that I would argue the feats should not be usable to represent speed. There is nothing about either HE or Punisher's powerset or feats, outside of bulletdodging, that suggests either should be fast enough to dodge the other's weapon.

You mention Punisher tagging spiderman, which is, imho, a very realistic portrayal. However, spidersense aside, it is not something that would be unreasonable to expect of someone who is equally a master of archery.

Originally posted by Bentley
I agree with you about the real life point, I'm discussing mostly with comics in mind in which Clint does quite well against bullets.

maybe its that, when HE fights someone with a gun, it is treated much differently than when punisher uses one.

"bulletdodging" just seems to be something heroes do, Punisher included, whereas Punisher rarely jobs like that

Bentley
Originally posted by Deadline
You sure about that? I was have read several years worth of West Coast Avengers , I've read Solo Avengers which featured Hawkeye. Not to mention some really old Avengers issues, Secret Wars etc etc.

Thats a shitload of Hawkeye. I only go on about Punisher because hes underated, so people assume that I've only read Punisher.



Like who? Taskmaster used HEs skill but couldn't hit Spiderman without tactics.

Well, there is Whizzer, but Whizzer does suck ermm

inimalist
Originally posted by Bentley
I agree with you about the real life point, I'm discussing mostly with comics in mind in which Clint does quite well against bullets.

I'm sure, and I'm totally willing to admit my bias here

maybe I should phrase it as, I would prefer to read comics where guns and such aren't treated with such a lack of seriousness

Bentley
Originally posted by inimalist
I'm sure, and I'm totally willing to admit my bias here

maybe I should phrase it as, I would prefer to read comics where guns and such aren't treated with such a lack of seriousness


I agree, although it would certainly make heroes like HE quite ridiculous big grin

@Deadline: I agree that people underestimate Frank, but you're not going to tell me there is a hundred guys backing up Clint around here, I'm doing more or less the same thing you are doing.

inimalist
Originally posted by Bentley
I agree, although it would certainly make heroes like HE quite ridiculous big grin

smile

they have their place, and I'm not above a good mindless Avengers or TB story, so I'll stop talking out of both sides of my mouth

the ninjak
Daken killed Punisher!

Clint made Daken his *****!

Bentley
Originally posted by the ninjak
Daken killed Punisher!

Clint made Daken his *****!


Oh, there you go, Daken and Venom are fast too, right?

the ninjak
Venom was asleep.

Bentley
Originally posted by the ninjak
Venom was asleep.


I didn't remember. Such a lazy Venom!

inimalist
Originally posted by the ninjak
Daken killed Punisher!

Clint made Daken his *****!

/facepalm

juggernaut74
Originally posted by the ninjak
Daken killed Punisher!

Clint made Daken his *****! This is true. What issue did Hawkeye take Daken down? I need to see that again if anybody has scans.

the ninjak
Originally posted by juggernaut74
This is true. What issue did Hawkeye take Daken down? I need to see that again if anybody has scans.

He did it in The List : Avengers #1
He easily puts an arrow through his head. Then proceeds to take him out.
http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae259/the_ninjak/Dark_Reign_The_List_-_Avengers_Vol_1_1_page_23_Clinton_Barton_Earth-616.jpg

SamZED
What does Daken have to do with anything?

That wasnt Venom, that was Scorpion in disguise.stick out tongue

the ninjak
Originally posted by SamZED
What does Daken have to do with anything?

That wasnt Venom, that was Scorpion in disguise.stick out tongue
Originally posted by the ninjak
Venom was asleep.

angel stick out tongue

the ninjak
Clint owns Frank.

Deadline
Originally posted by inimalist
All heroes dodge bullets and lasers, so much so that I would argue the feats should not be usable to represent speed. There is nothing about either HE or Punisher's powerset or feats, outside of bulletdodging, that suggests either should be fast enough to dodge the other's weapon.

There is, Punisher has dodged gunfire from Bullseye, Bullseye is another character with superhuman accuracy like Hawkeye. Punisher has also managed to block Captain Americas shield and hes blocked DDs baton with gunfire.

I'm not saying he could dodge Hawkeyes arrows easily but he should be able to at least dodge some combine that with his gunskill and HE is toast. Also I've seen US Agent dodge HEs arrows and he doesn't even have superhuman speed or agility.

Originally posted by inimalist

You mention Punisher tagging spiderman, which is, imho, a very realistic portrayal. However, spidersense aside, it is not something that would be unreasonable to expect of someone who is equally a master of archery.



I do think comics to an extent take into consideration that arrows and thrown projectiles are slower than bullets. If you look at HE or possibly even Cap they tend to hit bullet dodgers not by pure accuracy but by trickery eg Taskmaster used HE's skill to fight Spiderman, Spiderman caught TM's arrows but the arrow had gas in it and exploded in his face. Punisher as far as I'm aware has a better history of tagging people with his aim.



Originally posted by the ninjak
He did it in The List : Avengers #1
He easily puts an arrow through his head. Then proceeds to take him out.
http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae259/the_ninjak/Dark_Reign_The_List_-_Avengers_Vol_1_1_page_23_Clinton_Barton_Earth-616.jpg

HE doesn't have any other feats to back that up, as far as I'm aware. They jobbed.

Falamu
I think Hawkeye...

thanos-prime
Punisher for the majority in every scenario. embarrasment

inimalist
Originally posted by Deadline
There is, Punisher has dodged gunfire from Bullseye, Bullseye is another character with superhuman accuracy like Hawkeye. Punisher has also managed to block Captain Americas shield and hes blocked DDs baton with gunfire.

I'm not saying he could dodge Hawkeyes arrows easily but he should be able to at least dodge some combine that with his gunskill and HE is toast. Also I've seen US Agent dodge HEs arrows and he doesn't even have superhuman speed or agility.


so, I know this is going to continue my error of using real world representations of things, but my logic is essentially as follows:

Bullet speed: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/MariaPereyra.shtml

> slowest speed listed is 180 m/s

Arrow speed: http://www.bowlocker.info/selection-your-compound-bow-4-ibo-speed-compound-bow

> high performace bows start at 91.44 m/s (300 f/s)

Speed of record fastball: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=sh-redspadres092410

> ~47 m/s (105 mph = miles per hour)



dodging, catching or reacting to something being thrown is not nearly as impressive as dodging an arrow. I'll save the "this-is-how-long-it-takes-for-people-to-react-to-something" part of this, but like, even with fastballs, scientists who have looked into it have shown that it is actually impossible for the human eye to react to the ball, but rather the batter's swing is based on a projection of where they think the ball will be. An arrow, at its slowest, is twice that fast. Bullets get up to thousands of m/s from rifles...

without explicit superspeed/agility/reflexes, Frank has no business dodging bullets or arrows. Lets ignore the fact that HE almost certainly has feats where he tags something moving faster than Frank should be able to (and vice versa of course).

StiltmanFTW
Hawkeye's bows are way more impressive stick out tongue

inimalist
I'd imagine, thats why I am stressing it is at least twice as fast as a normal human like DD should be able to throw something

Eternal Idol
Guns > bow & arrows

Punisher ftw.

Bentley
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Guns > bow & arrows

Punisher ftw.

This argument is final.


@Deadline: I'll look through my Hawkeye books and search for some feats, you're particularly interesting in speed feats?

Magneto1982
Hawkeye is a dead man.... sad

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.