Jaime Braddock vs White Phoenix

LordKaos

I was just doing a random search and came upon this thread, I think it would have been interesting to see Jamie become the avatar of the First Fallen, and in this form I doubt he would be able to beat Phoenix since he represents stagnation and is opposed to what the Phoenix does. Since the universe has come and gone and come and gone etc, the first fallen is constantly loosing his battle with the Phoenix, Jamie did not warp the White Hot Room he just pulled Rachel and Psylocke out of it, if in fact that was the white hot room, I thought it was too, but after rereading the issue it's only Rachels guess that's where they are. I also find it strange that he made Psylocke immune to reality warping and telepathy, yet she was obviously affected by the reality warp that created the world she and rachel were transported to. She thought she was princess of England along with everybody else, she had false memories about spending time in some old ruins until Rachel showed her that the ruins were something else (before the warp). For such a powerful reality warper who can manipulate quantum strings so proficiently, he has surely fallen short since Psylocke was warped like everybody else, she was able to be possessed by Nocturne and Rachel was able to link telepathically with her in the First Fallens realm to see what the being truly was. Now there is this crap in Exiles where she can become invisible by messing with her bodies molecules (she should not be able to become invisible in this manner because Jamie is so powerful right?)instead of just shunting light around herself. Her psi link with Brian was also still intact, but I guess that doesn't matter either.

Utrigita

Jamie in a stomp

LordKaos

yeah ok

Utrigita

Originally posted by LordKaos
yeah ok roll eyes (sarcastic)

Look from what I know about Phoenix and Jamie Phoenix chances of winning are lesser then my ever saying that a single Celestial would solo Galactus anywhere anytime.

He warped her room like it was childplay, he created a universe from basically nothingness, his by panel feat on level with (possibly beyond) MJJ and If you think that Phoenix would stand any chance against MJJ then I am fearing for your mental health.

LordKaos

The fact that you would see a teleportation effect as a reality warp already brings your mental health into question. What exactly did he warp her room into, if he warped it what did it become after this warp? Are you saying he warped the WHR and changed it into the reality that Rachel and Pyslocke found themselves in cause that didn't happen. I saw him pull strings using Rachels holemapthic crystal as a link to teleport the girls into an already warped reality that was beyond his power since his sister whom he "protected" from reality warps was profoundly affected. What universe did he create? Looked to me like he was just mucking with a universe that already existed since Excalibur was popping from reality to reality. When somehing that MJJ did other than the Fury sticks without him having to be alive then maybe I'll consider him, not to mention how utterly irrelevant he is in this matter.

Jamie created a universe from nothing? so then he is more powerful then MJJ in your opinion who needs something to warp reality right?

Jamie can't even keep Rachel from telepathically linking to Psylocke in his masters realm, she was made to be immune to telepathy even communication but there was no strain or resistance on the part of Rachel and if you say it was because Psylocke let her, that's crap her quantum structure was supposed to be wrapped so tightly that nothing in the form of telepathy or reality warping could get through, but it did.

And for the record Rachel and Psylocked appeared to warping wherever they were, being able to one minute see nothing and in the next seeing different versions of themselves, I say they did more warping of the room then he did, but where you see a warp I see teleportation because that's all be accomplished from pulling those strings. Is it because he is a reality warper? is that where the idea of him warping the area they were in comes into play? What did he warp it into, when I hear reality warp I think of some kind of change to the environment, and furthermore if they were in the WHR they existed outside of reality in a blank slate, the heart of creation if he did warp this place I don't see that as him being powerful it was a white room with nothing in it how hard could it be to warp if it's the WHR then it's the center of creation where things are made, give me a white room and some paint and I'm Jamie Braddock.

guy222

Originally posted by LordKaos
The fact that you would see a teleportation effect as a reality warp already brings your mental health into question. What exactly did he warp her room into, if he warped it what did it become after this warp? Are you saying he warped the WHR and changed it into the reality that Rachel and Pyslocke found themselves in cause that didn't happen. I saw him pull strings using Rachels holemapthic crystal as a link to teleport the girls into an already warped reality that was beyond his power since his sister whom he "protected" from reality warps was profoundly affected. What universe did he create? Looked to me like he was just mucking with a universe that already existed since Excalibur was popping from reality to reality. When somehing that MJJ did other than the Fury sticks without him having to be alive then maybe I'll consider him, not to mention how utterly irrelevant he is in this matter.

Jamie created a universe from nothing? so then he is more powerful then MJJ in your opinion who needs something to warp reality right?

Jamie can't even keep Rachel from telepathically linking to Psylocke in his masters realm, she was made to be immune to telepathy even communication but there was no strain or resistance on the part of Rachel and if you say it was because Psylocke let her, that's crap her quantum structure was supposed to be wrapped so tightly that nothing in the form of telepathy or reality warping could get through, but it did.

And for the record Rachel and Psylocked appeared to warping wherever they were, being able to one minute see nothing and in the next seeing different versions of themselves, I say they did more warping of the room then he did, but where you see a warp I see teleportation because that's all be accomplished from pulling those strings. Is it because he is a reality warper? is that where the idea of him warping the area they were in comes into play? What did he warp it into, when I hear reality warp I think of some kind of change to the environment, and furthermore if they were in the WHR they existed outside of reality in a blank slate, the heart of creation if he did warp this place I don't see that as him being powerful it was a white room with nothing in it how hard could it be to warp if it's the WHR then it's the center of creation where things are made, give me a white room and some paint and I'm Jamie Braddock.

bump

outavodka

Originally posted by guy222
bump

basilisk

Originally posted by guy222
Was it the Watcher

The Watcher did say it, I think it was when she died on the moon. Of course he failed to notice that it wasn't even really Jean who died at the time, so I wouldn't take his word for anything regarding Phoenix.

xjustice69x

Originally posted by basilisk
The Watcher did say it, I think it was when she died on the moon. Of course he failed to notice that it wasn't even really Jean who died at the time, so I wouldn't take his word for anything regarding Phoenix.
was this befor or after she was retconed?
becaus if it was befor.
its definetly hard for the watcher to know it was not realy her if the writers did not even know yet.

basilisk

Originally posted by xjustice69x
was this befor or after she was retconed?
becaus if it was befor.
its definetly hard for the watcher to know it was not realy her if the writers did not even know yet.

Before. I know... even the Watcher can't be expected to know when the writer is going to mess with the story. But he does end up looking stupid when he misses these things all the same. He is powerless against the retcon.

xjustice69x

haha if he knew befor the retcon then thats some real good precog!! eek!

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Utrigita
he created a universe from basically nothingness

Stop believing everything youre told is happening in scenes. Take time out to analyse comics yourself. Jamie did NO such thing.

Nope. He created a city within an alternate universe within which he created an avatar of himself to mess around with Excalibur.

When Jamie gets distracted and diverts his attention, what fades? The universe?

The planet?

Just the city Excalibur were in:

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/6/17514191662.jpg

And yet some would have you believe he created that entire universe.

Based on what? confused

GalacticStorm

So him shooting down stars does NOT equate to him having created that universe, especially when its clearly shown that his power only ever created an avatar and the city on that alternate Earth. It is they that disappeared when Jamie got distracted and stopped applying his power within that other reality.

If youre told that Jamie created another universe, ask for evidence where thats stated and ignore a theory based merely on the fact that he shot stars down out of the sky within his reality warp.

GalacticStorm

Aside from this imagined universal feat, Jamie Braddock has NEVER done anything truly impressive on panel to place him above the likes of Galactus let alone the White Phoenix Of Crown.

Utrigita

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Stop believing everything youre told is happening in scenes. Take time out to analyse comics yourself. Jamie did NO such thing.

Nope. He created a city within an alternate universe within which he created an avatar of himself to mess around with Excalibur.

When Jamie gets distracted and diverts his attention, what fades? The universe?

The planet?

Just the city Excalibur were in:

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/6/17514191662.jpg

And yet some would have you believe he created that entire universe.

Based on what? confused

The fact that he shot down some stars? Certainly not from on panel statement or depiction.

Within a reality warpers reality warp, the laws of space and time need not apply. Whilst within a warp, the space could appear limitless, however from outside the warp, the area the warp covers could be as small as a telephone box.

Look at the M'kraan crystal for example. As big as a bus looking at it from its outside where the laws of time/space apply, but from inside its confines are limitless.

I always analyse the situation and make up my own mind, I never point blank accept the scans.

Have you thought about the possiblity that he warp can also easily be enormous in it own right but dwindle just as quickly?

I believe we have had that argument before every being analyses the current event in different ways. My analyse of that scan is different from your own and everyones openion is equal. Unfortunetely I don't have a scaner to show you what I think show that he was warping a universe but I could just as well try to convince you that: A. Jasper warped a universe B. The UN rewrote the multiverse. Thats your interpretations and you are allowed to have them, as I'm allowed to have my own.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Utrigita
I always analyse the situation and make up my own mind, I never point blank accept the scans.

Have you thought about the possiblity that he warp can also easily be enormous in it own right but dwindle just as quickly?

I believe we have had that argument before every being analyses the current event in different ways. My analyse of that scan is different from your own and everyones openion is equal. Unfortunetely I don't have a scaner to show you what I think show that he was warping a universe but I could just as well try to convince you that: A. Jasper warped a universe B. The UN rewrote the multiverse. Thats your interpretations and you are allowed to have them, as I'm allowed to have my own.

All it comes down to is that the ONLY evidence you have behind the opinion that Jamie CREATED an entire universe is the fact that he shot down stars in that alternate universe scene. What the f**k?

Your point isnt stated or even suggested.

My interpretation is alot more probable given the showings Jamie had at the time, plus the events of the comic actually support my interpretation and dont support yours in the slightest. I.e nowhere is Jamie shown creating a universe, nowhere is that stated, youre just putting two and two together. Supposition. Jamie turns away from his games in that other reality and ONLY the city Excalibur were fighting in, plus the Jamie avatar itself disappears. That says it all. wink

GalacticStorm

Show me where its stated that Jaspers created that universe or drop the point. You cant use your supposition as a feat. Jamie stopped his games, the city and his avatar disappearred. No more, no less. Your opinion has no support.

GalacticStorm

Thats enough for today. Bed calls!! eek!

Utrigita

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
All it comes down to is that the ONLY evidence you have behind the opinion that Jamie CREATED an entire universe is the fact that he shot down stars in that alternate universe scene. What the f**k?

Allow my to pound my last statement into you head I HAVE NO SCANNER. hence is why I almost never shows any scans.

Utrigita

oh lets completely ignore this scans:
http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=91717725sy0.jpg
http://img75.imageshack.us/my.php?image=j1ht7.jpg
http://img75.imageshack.us/my.php?image=j2cp4.jpg
http://img75.imageshack.us/my.php?image=j3gx4.jpg

because if we do then yes Jamie did nothing great only managed to be in the 616 and then create a totally different reality no it isn't important.

P.S. and that is my analyse of the situation. But basically you have to disagree with anything Master say and thats okay makes sure the rest of us doesn't get carried away big grin

I agree with you on some points and I agree with him on some points, and most of us agree with the one that makes the best points.

xjustice69x

scan seems to say "hes fading away" "so's the city"
but some do consider big citys to be practicly universes with in them selfs

cis is involed in these battles and going by those scans
jean scolds and yells at jamie to go to bed for the win.
mabey throws a spanking in for good messure laughing

quoted from the rules
"Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, on the other hand, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively. Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb. Examples of the CIS-afflicted include characters such as Rhino or Jar Jar Binks. Events of CIS are not exempt from debates."
jamie is genuinely that dumb!!

LordKaos

Originally posted by xjustice69x
scan seems to say "hes fading away" "so's the city"
but some do consider big citys to be practicly universes with in them selfs

cis is involed in these battles and going by those scans
jean scolds and yells at jamie to go to bed for the win.
mabey throws a spanking in for good messure laughing

starlock

Phoenix of the white crown for the win

Wow a very funny thread,go to bed jamie laughing

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Utrigita
oh lets completely ignore this scans:
http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=91717725sy0.jpg
http://img75.imageshack.us/my.php?image=j1ht7.jpg
http://img75.imageshack.us/my.php?image=j2cp4.jpg
http://img75.imageshack.us/my.php?image=j3gx4.jpg

because if we do then yes Jamie did nothing great only managed to be in the 616 and then create a totally different reality no it isn't important.

P.S. and that is my analyse of the situation. But basically you have to disagree with anything Master say and thats okay makes sure the rest of us doesn't get carried away big grin

I agree with you on some points and I agree with him on some points, and most of us agree with the one that makes the best points.

Ummm ONCE AGAIN where in those scans is it STATED and/or CONCLUSIVELY depicted that Jamie created that alternate universe.

There is no statement or artistic depiction anywhere on panel for you to come to that conclusion. The stars within Jamies reality warp turn to dust so that means Jamie created that universe? What the f**k?

Horrible, horrible argument. erm

What is actually stated is that there appears to be a connection between Jamies games in 616 and whats going on with Excalibur in that other dimension.

Kitty clicks on to this and then knowing Jamie to be a dumbass, pretends to be one of his carers and orders him to stop playing his "chess game" and to go to bed.

Soon as 616 Jamie stops playing his game, what happens? shifty

The city Excalibur were fighting disappears as does the Jamie they were fighting against. Thats ALL that disappears.

From that occurrence, plus the fact that your argument is completely unfounded on panel i think this is pretty much done and dusted.

Phoenix for the win! eek!

GalacticStorm

bump

Thanos_THOTU

Originally posted by Galan007
If someone said Phoenix was "second only to God", that person is an absolute idiot, and shouldn't be taken seriously in the slightest. doped
Actually Utauh said it in one of the earlier issues, her first appearence I belive.

Mr Master

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Aside from this imagined universal feat, Jamie Braddock has NEVER done anything truly impressive on panel to place him above the likes of Galactus let alone the White Phoenix Of Crown.

Jamie FTW, in a curbstomp.

Mr Master

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
My interpretation is alot more probable given the showings Jamie had at the time, plus the events of the comic actually support my interpretation and dont support yours in the slightest. I.e nowhere is Jamie shown creating a universe, nowhere is that stated, youre just putting two and two together. Supposition. Jamie turns away from his games in that other reality and ONLY the city Excalibur were fighting in, plus the Jamie avatar itself disappears. That says it all.

I disagree.

Jamie 616 created that Alternate Reality.

Jamie 616 was controlling everything,

but he's insane so Kitty was able to put him to sleep portraying his mommy. laughing out loud

Mr Master

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Show me where its stated that Jaspers created that universe or drop the point. You cant use your supposition as a feat. Jamie stopped his games, the city and his avatar disappearred. No more, no less. Your opinion has no support.

I disagree.

Jamie FTW,

and Jamie 616 created that Alternate Reality and his counterpart with power of his own. smile

Mr Master

Originally posted by Utrigita
oh lets completely ignore this scans:
http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=91717725sy0.jpg
http://img75.imageshack.us/my.php?image=j1ht7.jpg
http://img75.imageshack.us/my.php?image=j2cp4.jpg
http://img75.imageshack.us/my.php?image=j3gx4.jpg

because if we do then yes Jamie did nothing great only managed to be in the 616 and then

create a totally different reality no it isn't important.

P.S. and that is my analyse of the situation.

But basically you have to disagree with anything Master say and thats okay

makes sure the rest of us doesn't get carried away big grin

starlock

I do believe CIS would be involved in this battle......we dont question anything about the rhino? and this guy is clearly more in the stupid end of this debate

Mr Master

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ummm ONCE AGAIN where in those scans is it STATED and/or CONCLUSIVELY depicted that Jamie created that alternate universe.

There is no statement or artistic depiction anywhere on panel for you to come to that conclusion. The stars within Jamies reality warp turn to dust so that means Jamie created that universe?

Horrible, horrible argument.

What is actually stated is that there appears to be a connection between Jamies games in 616 and whats going on with Excalibur in that other dimension.

Kitty clicks on to this and then knowing Jamie to be a dumbass, pretends to be one of his carers and orders him to stop playing his "chess game" and to go to bed.

Soon as 616 Jamie stops playing his game, what happens?

The city Excalibur were fighting disappears as does the Jamie they were fighting against. Thats ALL that disappears.

From that occurrence, plus the fact that your argument is completely unfounded on panel i think this is pretty much done and dusted.

I disagree.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Phoenix for the win!

dontgetit

Jamie Braddock Warped the White Hot Room ("Heart of the Phoenix" wink

like child's play.

This is the WHR

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/3728/wyz2.th.jpg

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/7650/m2jo5.th.jpg

Jamie teleported Rachel and Betsy to the Room,
then after a short while he begins to Morph the White Hot Room:

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/2512/j1ma3.th.jpg

He appears flying by an image of Captain Britain:

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/3619/j2hw6.th.jpg

Jamie Braddock with total control of the WHR ("Heart of the Phoenix" wink

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4193/j3cw1.th.jpg

Jamie Warps it into a Crystal like object.

Jamie Braddock FTW in a Stomp! yes

don't shiv

Jamie is deficient in Motivation he is weak
Phoenix is of the Strong what the Phoenix lacks in raw power is compensated through innovation: recruiting Roma Brian and Bettsy to her cause

Mr Master

Originally posted by don't shiv

dontgetit

Jamie Braddock Warped the White Hot Room ("Heart of the Phoenix" wink

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4193/j3cw1.th.jpg

Jamie Warps it into a Crystal like object.

shrug

Mr Master

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
ONLY evidence you have behind the opinion that Jamie CREATED an entire universe is the fact that he shot down stars in that alternate universe scene.

Jamie actually erased all the Stars in that Alternate Universe but yea,

I'm sure he was controlling only the City as you suppose. laughing out loud

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Your point isnt stated or even suggested.

It wasn't exactly stated,

that Fury teleported Jaspers to the Nullified 238 Universe but I was right about that one too.

You belittled me for daring to understand the On Panel account without a need for a Bio.

Unlike yourself, if it isn't in black in white, you're left stumped (like you had to turn to a Bio to comprehend what I knew from the First time I read "Crooked World" and "Anarchy in the UK"

Yea,

you tried to used the title of the Arc as evidence of Jaspers' 616 Warp being confined to the UK or World ... whatever bull shit you were trying to pull at the time,

but interestingly enough,

the Jaspers 238 Arc is titled "Crooked WORLD"

Are you going to claim that Japsers 238 only Warped the Earth?

See how convenient your bull shit is. (slick biatch)

Mr Master

Jamie created that Alternate Universe and that Alternate Jamie,

anyone who actually reads the issue unbiasedly would know that.

Here Kitty Pride is able to jump from the Universe Earth-616 to Jamie's Alternate Reality,

she can o this using Widget's Dimensional Gate:

http://img474.imageshack.us/img474/2899/jam1ig9.th.jpg

(Excalibur #18 & #19) don't make it clear whether the Jamie in the Other Dimension is real or not.

The World he lives in is certainly an idealized version of what Jamie would consider a paradise - one where racing drivers are revered as the top celebrities of the Planet.

Until the Second installment we are led to believe this is just another Alternate Reality,

but then we learn that Earth-616's Jamie is manipulating what is happening. When the Mainstream Jamie goes to sleep, not only does his counterpart vanish, but so too do the Dirty Angels and the City around them.

This certainly would imply that Mainstream Jamie Created all of them.

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/5356/jam2dz8.th.jpg

Next page we learn,

Widget's Dimensional Gate that leads to this Alternate Reality has NO Alternate Reality to go to: hm

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/1526/jam3ip1.th.jpg
"Widget's Dimensional Gate didn't work, I'm trapped on Earth"

That handles the bull shit but I'll go further in the next Post:

Mr Master

I guess we should ignore this aswell:

(Phoenix & Meggan linked as one are able to transform into certain beings with powers and all)

Dazzler's power comes from Sound waves that permeate through the Universe,

Jamie shuts off all the Sound in that Reality:

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3442/jam4qf2.th.jpg

Here Jamie makes Havok's own nuclear plasma blast,

explode the Moon after blasting a hole straight through him:

Right ... cause you can create a full scale Moon in Space in a City size Warp. laughing

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/4838/jam5bx7.th.jpg

Hey if that wasn't enough,

Here Jamie actually turns all the STARS in this Universe into snowflakes apparently:

(in order to turn off Havok's power which came from Stellar Energy at the time)

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/4076/jam6hr3.th.jpg

It's a rap right there.

Anyone who denies this feat is a hater,

all the true debaters agree on the CLEAR OBVIOUS ON PANEL PROOF!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The stars within Jamies reality warp turn to dust so that means Jamie created that universe?

Horrible, horrible argument.

What's horrible is your continuous attempt at demeaning everything anyone else does,

that Phoenix can't do.

"Within Jamie's warp" my ass.

Are you saying he created a Universe within his Warp?

That would be sweet.

Or are you saying it's an illusion?

That would be bull shit

What If...

Originally posted by don't shiv
Jamie is deficient in Motivation he is weak
Phoenix is of the Strong what the Phoenix lacks in raw power is compensated through innovation: recruiting Roma Brian and Bettsy to her cause

LOLWTF?

joesdabest1

Just because he can mess with its pad doesn't mean he can beat the Phoenix if they go toe to toe.

I mean... I can easily walk up to Mike Tyson's house and throw a rock through his window. According to you guys since i "warped his reality" i should be able to beat his ass. Lol, Just my 2 cents no offense.

LordKaos

Jamie erased all the stars right? he does this through an act of will right? Through the fight with Galactus we know that trying to remove Phoenix from her chosen form erases stars without even applying her power. I still want to know what the WHR was warped into? Looked like nothing more than teleportation to me he pulled the strings and one minute they were one place and then another, that's called teleportation. He used his reality warping power to do it because that's his power to use reality warping to do all things he does, he used it to teleport them nothing more. The crystal was a link so that he could home in on them, since when they first entered it they were pulled there using the crystal.

llagrok

Wow, people are actually debating on this.

Spite.

GalacticStorm

So after all that waffle and the massive personal attack detraction, you still have no on panel reference or depiction of Jamie Braddock creating a universe. sad

Your only argument is that because Jamie Braddock turned some stars within his reality warp into snowflakes then that means he created that entire universe. What the f**k?

Supposition. Your point isnt stated or depicted anywhere on panel. You've seen Jamie mess around with some stars, you've made some crazy assumptions and now youre posting them here as if theyre fact. thumb down

Within a reality warp, the laws of SPACE and time need not apply. They are what the reality warper determines. Outside of a reality warp where a warpers influence does not extend and the laws of space/time are still in place, the warped area could be the size of a telephone box. Inside that reality warp the space could be limitless, defined only by the warpers imagination.

Observe.

The outside of the M'kraan crystal where the laws of space/time apply:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1216065622.jpg

Notice the relative size of the people

Inside the crystal where space/time doesnt apply:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1216065881.jpg

An endless city

Once again.

Outside:

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/7/18913292637.jpg

Inside:

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/7/18913330456.jpg

As far as was illustrated on panel Jamie created a city size warp within an alternate reality and within that alternate reality he created an avatar of himself to fight Excalibur.

Within his city sized warp, space and time were what Jamie made them. In his warp he turned stars into snowflakes and he turned off sound. Impressive, outside of that warp none of that happened.

When Jamie was taken away from his alternate reality games, what disappeared, the universe? the planet?

Nope. Just the city Excalibur were being attacked in and the avatar Jamie created.

And yet you would credibly try and tell us Jamie created that universe?

Wheres your proof? Come up with the goods or clear your sh*t the hell outta here!!! laughing out loud

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by LordKaos
I still want to know what the WHR was warped into? Looked like nothing more than teleportation to me he pulled the strings and one minute they were one place and then another, that's called teleportation. He used his reality warping power to do it because that's his power to use reality warping to do all things he does, he used it to teleport them nothing more. The crystal was a link so that he could home in on them, since when they first entered it they were pulled there using the crystal.

thumb up

Precisely.

Mr Masters interpretation of that scene isnt stated anywhere, hes just making assumptions based on ambiguous artistic depiction. As per usual hes trying to present guesswork as fact thumb down

All we know for certain is that Jamie teleported Rachael and Betsy back to Earth. big grin

Another point bites the dust eek!

Mr Master

Originally posted by LordKaos
Jamie erased all the stars right? he does this through an act of will right?

Yes.

Originally posted by LordKaos
Through the fight with Galactus we know that trying to remove Phoenix from her chosen form erases stars without even applying her power.

Actually,

Galactus was erasing the actual Phoenix Force from existence.

The actual Phoenix Force had merged with Rachel completely at that time:

The Phoenix Force tells Rachel,

"ALL I have become, You ARE Too"
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/4920/f2bj2.th.jpg
"My Essence is Bonded to Your Spirit, the Burden of Power, will be YOURS"

The Phoenix Force itself told Rachel,

"You are the ONE TRUE PHOENIX"
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/6269/f5uk4.th.jpg

The actual Phoenix Force in it's Natural State is the sustenance of the Stars in the Universe,

this is why the Stars were fading, because the actual Phoenix Force, which was Rachel,

was dying.

Mr Master

Originally posted by LordKaos
I still want to know what the WHR was warped into?

It was Warped. (doesn't necessarily have to be into something specific)

The WHR swirled into that Crystal-like object Visually depicted On Panel,

then Betsy and Rahcel end up getting thrown into a pre-arrange destination by Jamie.

Originally posted by LordKaos
Looked like nothing more than teleportation to me he pulled the strings and one minute they were one place and then another, that's called teleportation.

I know what teleportation is.

Jamie Warped the WHR.

Originally posted by LordKaos
He used his reality warping power to do it because that's his power to use reality warping to do all things he does, he used it to teleport them nothing more.

I disagree.

He didn't Warp the WHR in order to get Betsy and Rachel to the WHR,

so why did he have to do it to get them out? confused

Originally posted by LordKaos
The crystal was a link so that he could home in on them,

since when they first entered it they were pulled there using the crystal.

dontgetit

Where is this stated?

Rachel and Betsy NEVER reached the WHR through the Crystal:

They instantaneously ended up there in a flash. (NO Crystal)

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/1461/jam1ng4.th.jpg

http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/8480/jam2ww9.th.jpg

http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/4723/jam3bv4.th.jpg

This is the rest of relevant pages of the issue concerning the denate at hand:

http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/3627/jam4st9.th.jpg

http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/3083/jam5fd4.th.jpg

The WHR is a Nexus ... represented here as a White Void,

clearly here is Jamie tearing through that Void and swirling it like child's play,

the Whole freakin thing gets flushed into that Crystal-like object.

http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/8844/jam6ss2.th.jpg

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5990/jam7yc0.th.jpg

LordKaos

Originally posted by Mr Master
It was Warped. (doesn't necessarily have to be into something specific)

The WHR swirled into that Crystal-like object Visually depicted On Panel,

then Betsy and Rahcel end up getting thrown into a pre-arrange destination by Jamie.

I know what teleportation is.

Jamie Warped the WHR.

I disagree.

He didn't Warp the WHR in order to get Betsy and Rachel to the WHR,

so why did he have to do it to get them out? confused

dontgetit

Where is this stated?

Rachel and Betsy NEVER reached the WHR through the Crystal:

They instantaneously ended up there in a flash. (NO Crystal)

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/1461/jam1ng4.th.jpg

http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/8480/jam2ww9.th.jpg

http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/4723/jam3bv4.th.jpg

This is the rest of relevant pages of the issue concerning the denate at hand:

http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/3627/jam4st9.th.jpg

http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/3083/jam5fd4.th.jpg

The WHR is a Nexus ... represented here as a White Void,

clearly here is Jamie tearing through that Void and swirling it like child's play,

the Whole freakin thing gets flushed into that Crystal-like object.

http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/8844/jam6ss2.th.jpg

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5990/jam7yc0.th.jpg

The crystal like object is the holempathic crystal left to Rachel by Jean (Phoenix) when the chaos wave hit the Xmen, Betsy and Rachel (using Phoenix imagery) linked their tk to anchor themselves and then next thing that happened is they were pulled into the WHR, they summoned images of themselves, then they were able to see Brian in the altered reality, Jamie appeared and pulled strings using the holempathic crystal to pull them back to 616 earth, where his sister who he protected from all alteration was altered. When Jamie came back after all that it was stated by nightcrawler that his warps were global and his sister said he should not even have the power he had when the First Fallen appeared. You said he warped her room like childs play, into what? nothing because he did not warp it, especially into the crystal that was already on Rachels neck, left to her by her mother, the Phoenix who imprinted the crystal even though she had no idea Rachel had returned from the timestream. You disagree, me too! So now what?

Nikkolas

^ proof of any of that be nice.

Creshosk

The Phoenix side's evidence and claims match. The Jamie side has some holes in their claims to their evidence.

Phoenix takes this.

LordKaos

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yes.

Actually,

Galactus was erasing the actual Phoenix Force from existence.

The actual Phoenix Force had merged with Rachel completely at that time:

The Phoenix Force tells Rachel,

"ALL I have become, You ARE Too"
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/4920/f2bj2.th.jpg
"My Essence is Bonded to Your Spirit, the Burden of Power, will be YOURS"

The Phoenix Force itself told Rachel,

"You are the ONE TRUE PHOENIX"
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/6269/f5uk4.th.jpg

The actual Phoenix Force in it's Natural State is the sustenance of the Stars in the Universe,

this is why the Stars were fading, because the actual Phoenix Force, which was Rachel,

was dying.

?????? that's what I said, stars fade by trying to remove her! she applies no power to that, she is their sustenance, jamie would have to apply power to do this, Phoenix will do this if you TRY (he didn't and couldn't) to remove her from her chosen form.

LordKaos

Originally posted by Nikkolas
^ proof of any of that be nice.

Read when the First Fallen appeared, Jamie attacks the mansion and Nightcrawler says he could only affect reality locally until now, I won't read for you I don't have a scanner I have the books if you can't see it or buy it that's not my problem, you should probably leave it alone. If you read it you'd know where the proof was, read that would be nice too.

LordKaos

Originally posted by Creshosk
The Phoenix side's evidence and claims match. The Jamie side has some holes in their claims to their evidence.

Phoenix takes this.

: rock

Mr Master

Originally posted by LordKaos
The crystal like object is the holempathic crystal left to Rachel by Jean (Phoenix)

when the chaos wave hit the Xmen,

"When the Chaos Wave hit the X-Men?"

Where did this take place?

First time X-Men are introduced to HOM is in #462,

and Jean never appears there.

Originally posted by LordKaos
Betsy and Rachel (using Phoenix imagery) linked their tk to anchor themselves and then next thing that happened is they were pulled into the WHR,

Yea,

that was Jamie that teleported them without the need to Warp the WHR.

Originally posted by LordKaos
they summoned images of themselves, then they were able to see Brian in the altered reality, Jamie appeared and pulled strings using the holempathic crystal to pull them back to 616 earth,

I don't think so.

Jamie never needed that Crystal to pull then back anywhere,

where is this stated that he needed the Crystal?

Where is it stated that Jamie has anythin to do with that Crystal?

Jamie Warped the WHR just like the scans clearly show, period.

Originally posted by LordKaos
where his sister who he protected from all alteration was altered. When Jamie came back after all that it was stated by nightcrawler that his warps were global and his sister said he should not even have the power he had when the First Fallen appeared.

On Panel Jamie created that Alternate Reality where he made ALL the Stars in that Universe change.

When Kitty tried to return to that Reality,

there was NO Reality to return to. erm

Originally posted by LordKaos
You said he warped her room like childs play, into what?

Already told you he morphed the Reality there (a connected Void)

Jamie transformed the scene by nonchalantly pulling its strings,
then he flushed that Reality into the Crystal,
for whatever insane purpose.

Originally posted by LordKaos
nothing because he did not warp it, especially into the crystal that was already on Rachels neck, left to her by her mother, the Phoenix who imprinted the crystal even though she had no idea Rachel had returned from the timestream. You disagree, me too! So now what?

The Crystal had nothing to do with Jamie.

All the relevant pages from the issue are right above.

When you present proof of a connection between Jamie and the Crystal,

we'll continue.

Otherwise,

Jamie flushed the WHR into the Crystal "like child's play" (for fun)

http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/8844/jam6ss2.th.jpg

Mr Master

Originally posted by LordKaos
?????? that's what I said, stars fade by trying to remove her! she applies no power to that, she is their sustenance, jamie would have to apply power to do this,

Phoenix can't make Stars fade without applying power either.

Phoenix was getting KILLED, that's why the Stars were fading.

Btw. Jamie turned ALL the Stars in the Universe into snowflakes.

And still the Universe was able to sustain itself, it did not become a Void,

Why?

Because of Jamie ofcourse. smile

Originally posted by LordKaos
Phoenix will do this if you TRY (he didn't and couldn't) to remove her from her chosen form.

Actually Galactus himself decided to release Phoenix from her near death experience,

he was talked out of KILLING Phoenix by Roma, Death and the Watcher,

because of the "Eternal Pattern"

(Phoenix's job to Spark the Big Bangs of Universes awaiting their birth)

Mr Master

Originally posted by Creshosk
The Phoenix side's evidence and claims match.

Like bringing out the facts about the Mkraan Crystal from X-Men Comics,
which are completely unrelated to the subject at hand?

What does the Mkraan Crystal have to do with Jamie?

Absolutely nothing.

What does the architecture of the Mkraan Crystal in and out have to do with
Reality Warping and Jamie?

Absolutely Nothing.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So after all that waffle and the massive personal attack detraction, you still have no on panel reference or depiction of Jamie Braddock creating a universe.

Your only argument is that because Jamie Braddock turned some stars within his reality warp into snowflakes then that means he created that entire universe.

Supposition. Your point isnt stated or depicted anywhere on panel. You've seen Jamie mess around with some stars, you've made some crazy assumptions and now youre posting them here as if theyre fact.

Within a reality warp, the laws of SPACE and time need not apply. They are what the reality warper determines. Outside of a reality warp where a warpers influence does not extend and the laws of space/time are still in place, the warped area could be the size of a telephone box. Inside that reality warp the space could be limitless, defined only by the warpers imagination.

Observe.

The outside of the M'kraan crystal where the laws of space/time apply:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1216065622.jpg

Notice the relative size of the people

Inside the crystal where space/time doesnt apply:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1216065881.jpg

An endless city

As far as was illustrated on panel Jamie created a city size warp within an alternate reality and within that alternate reality he created an avatar of himself to fight Excalibur.

Within his city sized warp, space and time were what Jamie made them. In his warp he turned stars into snowflakes and he turned off sound. Impressive, outside of that warp none of that happened.

When Jamie was taken away from his alternate reality games, what disappeared, the universe? the planet?

Nope. Just the city Excalibur were being attacked in and the avatar Jamie created.

And yet you would credibly try and tell us Jamie created that universe?

hum

What does any of this have to do with Jamie Braddock?

What does any of this have to do with Excalibur?

What does any of this have to do with Reality Warping?

What does any of this have to do with Excalibur #18 and 19?

dontgetit

What do I care how the Mkraan Crystal works and all this unrelated jazz.

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with Jamie, Excalibur, Reality Warping,

or ANYTHING at ALL with Jamie's Feat ... NOTHING!!!

Come on duke what game is this?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Wheres your proof?

Already posted it many times,

Marvel itself agrees with Me on the HOM debate. smile

Working on solidifying this Jamie comedy too.

Creshosk

Originally posted by Mr Master

where is this stated that he needed the Crystal?

Where is it stated that Jamie has anythin to do with that Crystal?

Jamie Warped the WHR just like I the scans clearly show, period.

On Panel Jamie created that Alternate Reality where he made ALL the Stars in that Universe change. Let's see how you like your own medicine. smile

"Where is it stated that Jamie created the Universe?"

Originally posted by Mr Master
When you present proof of a connection between Jamie and the Crystal,

we'll continue.

Otherwise,

Jamie flushed the WHR into the Crystal "like child's play" (for fun)

http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/8844/jam6ss2.th.jpg Oh so you demand proof without needing to offer your own conclusive? Just your speculations are good enough? hmm

Looks like he made a neat special effect for another teleportation is all. Doesn't really look "warped". laughing

Originally posted by Mr Master
Phoenix can't make Stars fade without applying power either.

Phoenix was getting KILLED, that's why the Stars were fading.

Btw. Jamie turned ALL the Stars in the Universe into snowflakes.

And still the Universe was able to sustain itself, it did not become a Void,

Why?

Because of Jamie ofcourse. smile

Oh please, accprding to this logic Galactus created the universe he was in when he was causing the stars to fade. Removing things that feed on the universal life force does not indicate the universe was using Jamie to fuel it.

All you've got its speculation.

LordKaos

Where does it say he needed the crystal? I said he used the crystal, he did not create that crystal Rachel had it in her hand when they were in that white space she touched it and figured where they were before he appeared she got that crystal from her mother. You still have yet to explain to me why a reality warper who can create universes and "warp" the WHR can't protect his sister from something he specifically tried to keep from affecting her. You presented the obvious connection regarding the crystal, he pulled strings that pulled them from the WHR through the crystal into the altered 616 earth. if you want to argue Wandas warp is stronger than his, you only prove his inferiority since the WHR was unaffected by the Chaos wave. The Chaos wave the xmen thought somebody deployed a nuke everything was being rewritten except Betsy and Rachel who were in the WHR, only after they left were they affected.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Creshosk
Let's see how you like your own medicine.

"Where is it stated that Jamie created the Universe?"

This has nothing to do with my request.

He says Jamie needed the Crystal,

so where is that stated?

"Where is it stated Jamie created that Universe?"

Dazzler's power comes from Sound waves that permeate through the Universe,

Jamie shuts off all the Sound in that Reality:

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3442/jam4qf2.th.jpg

Here Jamie makes Havok's own nuclear plasma blast explode the Moon

in Space,

after blasting a hole straight through him:

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/4838/jam5bx7.th.jpg

Here Jamie actually turns all the STARS in this Universe into snowflakes apparently:

(in order to turn off Havok's power which came from Stellar Energy at the time)

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/4076/jam6hr3.th.jpg
"No more Stars ... means No more Steller Energy"

Oh yes, there's more.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Oh so you demand proof without needing to offer your own conclusive? Just your speculations are good enough?

Your opinion.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Looks like he made a neat special effect for another teleportation is all.

Doesn't really look "warped".

I disagree,

and a laughing smilie doesn't help the claim.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Oh please, accprding to this logic Galactus created the universe he was in when he was causing the stars to fade.

dontgetit

Originally posted by Creshosk
Removing things that feed on the universal life force does not indicate the universe was using Jamie to fuel it.

You take away the Stars of a Universe,

and said Universe becomes a Void.

Already seen On Panel during Excalibur #25

Originally posted by Creshosk
All you've got its speculation.

Your opinion.

Mr Master

Here Kitty Pride is able to jump from the Universe Earth-616 to Jamie's Alternate Reality,

and back to 616,

she can do this using Widget's Dimensional Gate:

http://img474.imageshack.us/img474/2899/jam1ig9.th.jpg

When 616Jamie goes to sleep, not only does his counterpart vanish,
but so too do the Dirty Angels and the City around them.

This certainly would imply that 616 Jamie Created all of them.

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/5356/jam2dz8.th.jpg

Next page we learn,

Widget's Dimensional Gate that leads to this Alternate Reality from 616,

has NO Alternate Reality to go to: hm

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/1526/jam3ip1.th.jpg
"Widget's Dimensional Gate didn't work, I'm trapped on Earth"

Don't tell me ...

that whole Universe is cut off from the Omniverse because Jamie's City disappeared. laughing

Mr Master

Originally posted by LordKaos
Where does it say he needed the crystal? I said he used the crystal,

I never saw Jamie use the Crystal,

except to flush the WHR into it.

Originally posted by LordKaos
he did not create that crystal Rachel had it in her hand when they were in that white space she touched it and figured where they were before he appeared she got that crystal from her mother.

I agree with this.

Originally posted by LordKaos
You still have yet to explain to me why a reality warper who can create universes and "warp" the WHR can't protect his sister from something he specifically tried to keep from affecting her.

That was the Chaos Wave that hit them, not the Warping of the 616 Universe.

Wanda's Chaos Wave merged UniverseS into nothingness.

Wanda's Warp of the 616 Universe only altered it to her wishes.

Originally posted by LordKaos
You presented the obvious connection regarding the crystal, he pulled strings that pulled them from the WHR through the crystal into the altered 616 earth.

I saw the WHR getting flushed,

not just them.

Originally posted by LordKaos
if you want to argue Wandas warp is stronger than his, you only prove his inferiority since the WHR was unaffected by the Chaos wave.

Just cause the Chaos Wave hadn't reached the WHR,
doesn't mean it would have remained that way.

In fact,

Roma stated that EVerything would go,

and perhaps the Ascention itself: (TOOA/God?) shrug

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/9752/sc8bk1.th.jpg

"If the breach is not sealed, the Chaos Wave will continue to expand,

perhaps to the ASCENTION itself"

Originally posted by LordKaos
The Chaos wave the xmen thought somebody deployed a nuke everything was being rewritten except Betsy and Rachel who were in the WHR, only after they left were they affected.

Everything was being erased actually, but I agree with this.

LordKaos

Psylocke was warped, possessed and telepathically linked, why could the creator of universes not keep this from happening like he intended to do? Rachel used her power and was able to see and show the real reality behind what Psylocke thought were her memories. And Roma is no more certain about the scope of the chaos wave then anybody thus the word prehaps. She also used the word sidereal which has to do with stars and constellation so your point being Roma can sometimes not understand what she protects fully

Creshosk

Originally posted by Mr Master
This has nothing to do with my request.

He says Jamie needed the Crystal,

so where is that stated?

"Where is it stated Jamie created that Universe?"

Dazzler's power comes from Sound waves that permeate through the Universe,

Jamie shuts off all the Sound in that Reality:

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3442/jam4qf2.th.jpg

Here Jamie makes Havok's own nuclear plasma blast explode the Moon

in Space,

after blasting a hole straight through him:

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/4838/jam5bx7.th.jpg

Here Jamie actually turns all the STARS in this Universe into snowflakes apparently:

(in order to turn off Havok's power which came from Stellar Energy at the time)

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/4076/jam6hr3.th.jpg
"No more Stars ... means No more Steller Energy"

Oh yes, there's more.Oh wow you proved he's a reailty manipulator. durclap

Oh snap, you didn't prove he made that reality, just that he could manipulate it. durfist

So where does it say that he created it.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Your opinion.No seriously, that's your argument to me pointing out you have nothing but speculation, especially after that pathetic attempt to prove he made the reality rather than simply manipulated it? hmm

Originally posted by Mr Master
I disagree,So prove it. You claim he warped it. But if he teleported them IN, then what's to say that he didn't just teleport them OUT.

Speculation of equal merit to your claims: Could be he just teleported them out and that crystal is what the M'kraan crystal looks like after Wanda warped the 616 reality.

Originally posted by Mr Master
and a laughing smilie doesn't help the claim.Never said it did, however remember this attack on how I present an argument.

Originally posted by Mr Master
dontgetitWell according to above, Jamie made the stars dissappear, therefore he created that reality. so since its Galactus's actions that are causing the stars to disappear, then obviously he created the universe he was in to. Flawless logic. yes

Originally posted by Mr Master
You take away the Stars of a Universe,

and said Universe becomes a Void.Or a universe without stars in it.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Already seen On Panel during Excalibur #25

Your opinion. Not really. All you have is speculation, you haven't proved a thing. I ask for proof of it saying that he created the universe, and you do your usual misinterpritation dance and give me... reality warping feats.

Wanda warped the 616 universe, does that mean she initially created it?

Mr Master

Originally posted by Creshosk
Oh wow you proved he's a reailty manipulator.

Oh snap, you didn't prove he made that reality, just that he could manipulate it.

So where does it say that he created it.

Here Kitty Pride is able to jump from the Universe Earth-616 to Jamie's Alternate Reality,

and back to 616,

she can do this using Widget's Dimensional Gate:

http://img474.imageshack.us/img474/2899/jam1ig9.th.jpg

When 616Jamie goes to sleep, not only does his counterpart vanish,
but so too do the Dirty Angels and the City around them.

This certainly would imply that 616 Jamie Created all of them.

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/5356/jam2dz8.th.jpg

Next page we learn,

Widget's Dimensional Gate that leads to this Alternate Reality from 616,

has NO Alternate Reality to go to: hm

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/1526/jam3ip1.th.jpg
"Widget's Dimensional Gate didn't work, I'm trapped on Earth"

So again ...

that whole Universe is cut off from the Omniverse because Jamie's City disappeared? hm

If he didn't create it,

why did it all disappear when 616 Jamie fell to sleep?

Why was that Dimension inaccessible after Jamie fell to sleep?

Originally posted by Creshosk
No seriously, that's your argument to me pointing out you have nothing but speculation,

And?

Originally posted by Creshosk
especially after that pathetic attempt to prove he made the reality rather than simply manipulated it?

Have you even read these issues, to be calling my presentation "pathetic?"

It's funny how your ignoring the fact that everything disappeared after Jamie fell asleep.

I won't call you "pathetic" because of it though. smile

Originally posted by Creshosk
So prove it. You claim he warped it. But if he teleported them IN, then what's to say that he didn't just teleport them OUT.

He never Warped the Reality within the WHR to teleport them in,

why would he have to do it to teleport them out?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Speculation of equal merit to your claims: Could be he just teleported them out and that crystal is what the M'kraan crystal looks like after Wanda warped the 616 reality.

This actually sounds like a sound theory.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Well according to above, Jamie made the stars dissappear, therefore he created that reality. so since its Galactus's actions that are causing the stars to disappear, then obviously he created the universe he was in to. Flawless logic.

Only Jamie actually Warped the Stars with his own power,

while Galactus inadvertently was making the Stars turn off by erasing the Phoenix Force from existence.

Anyhow,

that's not what makes Jamie creating that Alternate Reality conclusive,

it's the Fact that,

when Kitty tried to return to it,

it was gone.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Not really. All you have is speculation, you haven't proved a thing.

Your opinion.

I'm still wondering what you're trying to prove.

Cause you haven't mentioned the Phoenix, you're only trying in vain to downplay Jamie's feat.

Originally posted by Creshosk
I ask for proof of it saying that he created the universe,

and you do your usual misinterpritation dance and give me... reality warping feats.

Then you're not paying attention.

Which makes this debate pointless.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Wanda warped the 616 universe, does that mean she initially created it?

Inconsequential ...

Mr Master

This Jamie's official Bio from the Officially Marvel sposored site:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/braddockj.htm#counterpart

"As Jamie fell asleep, the one fighting Excalibur,

as well as MUCH of his Reality,

vanished into nothingness"

Apparently 616 Jamie Created MUCH of that Alternate Reality.

So I was mostly Right.

I'm not surprised, Kitty couldn't return to that Reality,
that was sufficient On Panel proof for un-biased eyes. smile

Jamie Created MUCH of that Universe,

but ... Jamie had Total Control of that Universe as we saw in the scans.

***

Heck,

they even say 616 Jamie might've Created the Nth Man, Alfie O'Meagan,

and his entire Universe as well.

Creshosk

Originally posted by Mr Master
Here Kitty Pride is able to jump from the Universe Earth-616 to Jamie's Alternate Reality,

and back to 616,

she can do this using Widget's Dimensional Gate:

http://img474.imageshack.us/img474/2899/jam1ig9.th.jpg

When 616Jamie goes to sleep, not only does his counterpart vanish,
but so too do the Dirty Angels and the City around them.

This certainly would imply that 616 Jamie Created all of them.

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/5356/jam2dz8.th.jpg

Next page we learn,

Widget's Dimensional Gate that leads to this Alternate Reality from 616, Check this out...

Originally posted by Mr Master
has NO Alternate Reality to go to: hmWhere does it say that?

Originally posted by Mr Master
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/1526/jam3ip1.th.jpg
"Widget's Dimensional Gate didn't work, I'm trapped on Earth"And that's all it says. Anything beyond that as to why is just speculation.

Originally posted by Mr Master
So again ...

that whole Universe is cut off from the Omniverse because Jamie's City disappeared? hm

If he didn't create it,

why did it all disappear when 616 Jamie fell to sleep?Who says it did? All I saw was a widget not working.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Why was that Dimension inaccessible after Jamie fell to sleep?Sorry, anything that's not stated or shown is speculation.

Originally posted by Mr Master
And? And it proves all you have is speculation.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Have you even read these issues, to be calling my presentation "pathetic?"Reversal of blame. Want me to get you some big floppy ret shoes to dance in?

Originally posted by Mr Master
It's funny how your ignoring the fact that everything disappeared after Jamie fell asleep.its funny how that's just speculation.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I won't call you "pathetic" because of it though. smile

Good, cause you'd be even more pathetic for calling me that for not swallowing your pathetic bullshit.

Originally posted by Mr Master
He never Warped the Reality within the WHR to teleport them in,

why would he have to do it to teleport them out?

eek!

GOOD QUESTION! eek!

Originally posted by Mr Master
This actually sounds like a sound theory.How could that be if what you're spouting is fact and not speculation?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Only Jamie actually Warped the Stars with his own power,

while Galactus inadvertently was making the Stars turn off by erasing the Phoenix Force from existence.
Inconsequential.
Jamie used his abilities the stars disappeared therefore Jamie created the universe.
Galactus used his abilities the stars disappeared therefore Galactus created the universe.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Anyhow,

that's not what makes Jamie creating that Alternate Reality conclusive,

it's the Fact that,

when Kitty tried to return to it,

it was gone. Where does it say it was gone? Oh I'm sorry, that's just speculation.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Your opinion. Nope, already proved it.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm still wondering what you're trying to prove.That all of what you're claiming is speculation.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Cause you haven't mentioned the Phoenix, you're only trying in vain to downplay Jamie's feat.No, I'm countering your overhyping the feats.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Then you're not paying attention.If that was true then I wouldn't have noticed you're just speculating and would have swallowed your bull.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Which makes this debate pointless.This debate is pointless because you're not bringing facts, just speculation.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Inconsequential ... Because it disproves your point.

Jamie manipulated that Universe therefore he created it initially.
Wanda Manipulated 616 therefore she created it initially

Notice the double standard your have in your logic... or the big gapping holes?

GalacticStorm

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/7/19011474517.jpg

OWNED laughing out loud

GalacticStorm

Emmie, you asked what the M'kraan crystal has to do with Jamies warps, well within a reality warp, just like within within the M'kraan crystal, the laws of reality i.e time and space dont hold sway, therefore i illustrated how outside the influence of the warp, within reality, the warp may cover an area the size of a bus, however step inside reality where the laws of reality are non existent or warped and the space could be endless. smile

Jamie turning stars to snowflakes WITHIN his reality warp, does NOT mean that Jamie therefore created that universe. What the f**k?

Jamie shutting off sound WITHIN his reality warp, does NOT mean that he shut off sound in the universe What the f**k?

What disappeared when Jamie stopped applying his power to this alternate reality, the universe? the planet? a continent? Nope.

The city they were fighting in. The city Jamie created along with an avatar to mess around with Excalibur within.

That will be all. smile

don't shiv

Jamie Braddock
Phoenix jobbs too much to retain credibility in the field

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by don't shiv
Jamie Braddock
Phoenix jobbs too much to retain credibility in the field

Jamie Braddock was terrified of the First Fallen who has no on panel feats to rival the Phoenix.

Aside from Mr Masters speculation, Jamie Braddock has no on panel feats to put him above a skyfather let alone the White Phoenix. erm

GalacticStorm

Lets see if we actually get scans STATING that Jamie created that alternate universe, instead of just the city, on the plenet, within that alternate universe as clearly illustrated by the fact that that is exactly what disappearred when Jamie stopped applying his power in that reality. erm

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/6/17514191662.jpg

Only time will tell shifty

Mr Master

Originally posted by Creshosk
If that was true then I wouldn't have noticed you're just speculating and

would have swallowed your bull.

This debate is pointless because you're not bringing facts, just speculation.

The rest is inconsequential with a bunch of sarcasm and irrelevance.

bored

Ahhh ... bottomline:

This Jamie's official Bio from the Officially Marvel sposored site:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/braddockj.htm#counterpart

"As Jamie fell asleep, the one fighting Excalibur,

as well as MUCH of his Reality,

vanished into nothingness"

EVIDENTLY 616 Jamie Created MUCH of that Alternate Reality.

So I was mostly Right.

I'm not surprised, Kitty couldn't return to that Reality,
that was sufficient On Panel proof for un-biased eyes. smile

Jamie Created MUCH of that Universe,

but ... Jamie had Total Control of that Universe as we saw in the scans.

yawn

Mr Master

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
OWNED

I just realized who that bootlicker is,

Oh yes, I know remember.

That explains the unprovoked hostility.

Oh well ... who cares. laughing

Creshosk

Originally posted by Mr Master
The rest is inconsequential with a bunch of sarcasm and irrelevance.

boredIts funny how you say that whenever a point is made which disproves yours. You have no way of countering a point so you attempt to dismiss it as "irrelivant" because it simply doesn't suit you.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Ahhh ... bottomline:

This Jamie's official Bio from the Officially Marvel sposored site:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/braddockj.htm#counterpart

"As Jamie fell asleep, the one fighting Excalibur,

as well as MUCH of his Reality,

vanished into nothingness"But not the universe. just the reality that he created, as in the city which we already agreed to. You still haven't proven anything and are still only offering speculation.

Originally posted by Mr Master
EVIDENTLY 616 Jamie Created MUCH of that Alternate Reality.His reality might simply refer to the city, since that was his reality alterations. It didn't say the universe disappeared.

Originally posted by Mr Master
So I was mostly Right.Nope, you were twisting the wording to suit your needs... like you ALWAYS do. What's not there you ALWAYS make up.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm not surprised, Kitty couldn't return to that Reality,
that was sufficient On Panel proof for un-biased eyes. smile

Please, your eyes are extremly biased as you're adding information of your own that's not there based on insufficent evidence. That's called conjecture. and the act of conjectyuring is called speculating. So again, all you're offering is speculation.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Jamie Created MUCH of that Universe, Where does it say that? Oh, right. It doesn't.

Originally posted by Mr Master
but ... Jamie had Total Control of that Universe as we saw in the scans. That doesn't mean he created it though. Scarlet witcvh for example had total control of 616, that doesn't mean that SHE created it.

Originally posted by Mr Master
yawn And watch as you disregard this post as "irrelivant" like that countered my points.

Fact is you're an intelectual coward, you can't debate rationally so you have to dismiss the other person's points and then continue on as if they were never made. It's intellectually dishonest as well as logically fallicious. Try to bring some REAL evidence to the table and not merely your speculation. and don't dismiss a point simply because it doesn't suit you. It's rude and shows you to be weak as you CAN'T handle the points.

Nikkolas

A reality is a universe. Just FYI.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Creshosk
Its funny how you say that whenever a point is made which disproves yours. You have no way of countering a point so you attempt to dismiss it as "irrelivant" because it simply doesn't suit you.

laughing out loud

You haven't disproved anything.

Originally posted by Creshosk
His reality might simply refer to the city, since that was his reality alterations. It didn't say the universe disappeared.

Sorry jack.

A Reality in Marvel is a Universe.

NOT a City. laughing

Originally posted by Creshosk
Nope, you were twisting the wording to suit your needs...

like you ALWAYS do.

What's not there you ALWAYS make up.

Now you're just talking shit

cause you were Proven WRONG!

And it sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder,

are you going to post something of consequence to the debate,
or are you going to continue to try and slander my name?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Please, your eyes are extremly biased as you're adding information of your own that's not there based on insufficent evidence. That's called conjecture. and the act of conjectyuring is called speculating. So again, all you're offering is speculation.

Rubbish.

An attempt at "philosophy" to sound smart and somehow sound "right,"

will not work.

Originally posted by Creshosk
That doesn't mean he created it though. Scarlet witcvh for example had total control of 616, that doesn't mean that SHE created it.

Your rant has made you unaware that I slightly changed my statement,

from,

Jamie Created that entire Universe

to,

Jamie Created MUCH of that Universe, just like Jamie's OFFICIAL Bio states. smile

Originally posted by Creshosk
And watch as you disregard this post as "irrelivant" like that countered my points.

Nah,

I'll just Post the EVIDENCE that PROVES conclusively,

that,

1. Jamie CREATED MUCH of that Universe

and

2. Jamie had Total Control of that Universe.

AGAIN:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/braddockj.htm#counterpart

"As Jamie fell asleep, the one fighting Excalibur,

as well as MUCH of his Reality,

vanished into nothingness"

EVIDENTLY 616 Jamie Created MUCH of that Alternate Reality

NOT just a City.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Fact is you're an intelectual coward,

Gibberish.

Originally posted by Creshosk
you can't debate rationally so you have to dismiss the other person's points and then continue on as if they were never made.

I replied to your posts,

but I noticed you're just being a d*ck,

so I decided to ignore most of the yip yap hate rant.

Originally posted by Creshosk
It's intellectually dishonest as well as logically fallicious.

I'm here to debate Comics.

Are you going to post something of significance?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Try to bring some REAL evidence to the table and not merely your speculation. and don't dismiss a point simply because it doesn't suit you. It's rude and shows you to be weak as you CAN'T handle the points.

Try to bring anything at all to the table,

instead of just disputing evidence with theories and baseless opinions.

Now go ahead and come back with your witty, sarcastic, thesaurus enlightened mind.

Yea, yea you'l probably sound funny and you'l insult me well,

but who gives a shit about any of that really? swank

This isn't a debate any more so good day to you sir. sleep

Mr Master

Originally posted by Nikkolas
A reality is a universe. Just FYI.

thumb up

I think he's messing around though,

he sounds intelligent so he couldn't really have thought a City makes up a Reality. laughing

Everyone who knows about the Marvel Cosmology KNOWS a Reality is a Universe.

Creshosk

Originally posted by Mr Master
laughing out loud

You haven't disproved anything.Your opinion, which is false.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Sorry jack.

A Reality in Marvel is a Universe.

NOT a City. laughing

Like House of M was Wanda's .. a merely corrupted 616, she didn't create it, she altered it to that state.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Now you're just talking shit

cause you were Proven WRONG! Nope, that'd be you. You posted the smiliy and everything. But you still haven't proven a thing.

Originally posted by Mr Master
And it sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder,quote] which is why you're the one who decided to dismiss everything without countering it right?

Originally posted by Mr Master
are you going to post something of consequence to the debate,
or are you going to continue to try and slander my name? If you feel your name has been slandered that's on your head because I have'nt called you anything that's not the truth. And besides in print its libel, slander is spoken.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Rubbish.Then prove it. All you've done is post scans and say how you interpreted events, NOTHING conclusive. just your opinion and NOTHING more.

Originally posted by Mr Master
An attempt at "philosophy" to sound smart and somehow sound "right,"

will not work.Its not just "sounds right" you have not posted ANYTHING conclusive. You posted him turning the stars into snowflakes as evidence that he created that universe. And when I bring up counter points you dismiss them because Once again you're dodging the point rather than dealing with it.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Your rant has made you unaware that I slightly changed my statement,

from,

Jamie Created that entire Universe

to,

Jamie Created MUCH of that Universe, just like Jamie's OFFICIAL Bio states. smile

So you concede that he didn't make the universe anymore than Wanda created House of M... and by that I mean merely altering what was already there.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Nah,

I'll just Post the EVIDENCE that PROVES conclusively, No you won't. You'll post evidence that doesn't show your point and then you'll speculate as to the why, like you always do.

Originally posted by Mr Master
that,

1. Jamie CREATED MUCH of that Universe

and

2. Jamie had Total Control of that Universe. Which doesn't show that he initially created the universe, which means that you haven't shown him to be any more powerful than wanda. Woo, she manipulated a pre-existing universe. That doesn't mean that she can create them. Same goes for Jamie.

Originally posted by Mr Master
AGAIN:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/braddockj.htm#counterpart

"As Jamie fell asleep, the one fighting Excalibur,

as well as MUCH of his Reality,

vanished into nothingness"

EVIDENTLY 616 Jamie Created MUCH of that Alternate Reality/quote] But not creating it initially. If you warp reality within a given area and close it off from the rest of that area that then becomes your reality. But that doesn't mean that you created a universe.

Originally posted by Mr Master
NOT just a City. Prove it. You still haven't shown anything more than him creating a city and manipulating things in that universe.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Gibberish. There you go again. way to prove my point by disimissing it AGAIN.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I replied to your posts, No you didn't. You called it irrealivant and then didn't respond to it.

Originally posted by Mr Master
but I noticed you're just being a d*ck, You mean like dismissing the things a person says and calling it irrelivant Mr. Pot?

Originally posted by Mr Master
so I decided to ignore most of the yip yap hate rant. No, you decided to ignore the points that counter yours.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm here to debate Comics. No, you're here to try and show off that you're smart. You care nothing for debate as you simply dismiss a person's post that counters yours and say that they were on a rant and being a dick.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Are you going to post something of significance?I have. Your inability to comprehend actual relivance has no bearing on my actions.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Try to bring anything at all to the table,Whatever you say Mr. Pot.

Originally posted by Mr Master
instead of just disputing evidence with theories and baseless opinions. You mean disputing theories and basless opinions with the person's own logic. I'll admit that I've used baseless opinions, but I used your logic to do so, so if my baseless opinions afe baseless that means that yours are as well.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Now go ahead and come back with your witty, sarcastic, thesaurus enlightened mind. Better than your dim, dense, limited closed one.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea, yea you'l probably sound funny and you'l insult me well, Just fighting fire with fire. Or did you not post icons of feces and call me a dick, Mr pot?

Originally posted by Mr Master
but who gives a shit about any of that really? swankYou do, because you just did so again.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This isn't a debate any more so good day to you sir. sleep It never was. Debates involve REAL evidence. not speculation founded on baseless opinions which is ALL you EVER do.

Creshosk

Originally posted by Mr Master
What does this have to do with the definition of Reality in Marvel?

shrug

UniverseS in the "REALITIES" menu at Marvel.com:

http://www.marvelcomics.com/universe/Category:Realities

I could easily swamp this thread with On Panel proof,
of Reality termed Universe and Universe termed Reality.

But the thought of having to debate this is retarded,

cause everyone should know this.

(meh, I'll let you run around with that thought in your head) Exiles in't a universe, its a group of individuals.

So once again, you present evidence and then give your interpritation of it. You still haven't proven a bloody blasted thing.

And no, you won't present evidence of your points. You'll post scans and then speculation. You are incapable of doing anything else. Be it this mater, in regards to the phoenix or even in another thread where you used speculation to justify claims that THOTU was TOAA's power.

Nothing concrete ever comes from you, just baseless opinions, speculation foiunded on shaky evidence. and scans that don't prove your points.

You my dazzle weak minded individuals into swallowing your bullshit, but I can see that you're nothing more than a fraud.

Smoki

Originally posted by Mr Master
Here Kitty Pride is able to jump from the Universe Earth-616 to Jamie's Alternate Reality,

and back to 616,

she can do this using Widget's Dimensional Gate:

http://img474.imageshack.us/img474/2899/jam1ig9.th.jpg

When 616Jamie goes to sleep, not only does his counterpart vanish,
but so too do the Dirty Angels and the City around them.

This certainly would imply that 616 Jamie Created all of them.

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/5356/jam2dz8.th.jpg

Next page we learn,

Widget's Dimensional Gate that leads to this Alternate Reality from 616,

has NO Alternate Reality to go to: hm

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/1526/jam3ip1.th.jpg
"Widget's Dimensional Gate didn't work, I'm trapped on Earth"

So again ...

that whole Universe is cut off from the Omniverse because Jamie's City disappeared? hm

Originally posted by Mr Master
This Jamie's official Bio from the Officially Marvel sposored site:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/braddockj.htm#counterpart

"As Jamie fell asleep, the one fighting Excalibur,

as well as MUCH of his Reality,

vanished into nothingness"

Apparently 616 Jamie Created MUCH of that Alternate Reality.

So I was mostly Right.

I'm not surprised, Kitty couldn't return to that Reality,
that was sufficient On Panel proof for un-biased eyes. smile

Jamie Created MUCH of that Universe,

but ... Jamie had Total Control of that Universe as we saw in the scans.

thumbsup impressive mr m this really makes sense its good to be able to always come back and find some awesome information i like excalibur i always liked theyre art but anyway you never miss a beat well done

Smoki

Originally posted by Nikkolas
A reality is a universe.

this is true

Creshosk

As I said, "Dazzle the weak minded.". laughing

Smoki

Originally posted by Creshosk
As I said, "Dazzle the weak minded.". laughing

hey why are you bashing me is it because i think mr master is right i thought you were accusing him of dismissing those that do not agree with him but all i see is you doing it i have a right to an opinion you know

Creshosk

Originally posted by Smoki
hey why are you bashing me is it because i think mr master is right i thought you were accusing him of dismissing those that do not agree with him but all i see is you doing it i have a right to an opinion you know What's there to dismiss? You haven't added anything to the debate.

You're entitled to whatever opinion you want, no matter how wrong it is. wink

I just find it funny that you ignore the fact that he's missing information, and then made stuff up to suppliment what wasn't there.

Smoki

Originally posted by Creshosk
What's there to dismiss? You haven't added anything to the debate.

thats right you just insulted me instead by calling me weak minded for no reason except for me agreeing with mr m isnt that what part of what a sock does bashes forum members that agree with someone he doesnt like its obvious you dont like mr m but i think its unfair for you to attack others that do not agree with you

Originally posted by Creshosk
You're entitled to whatever opinion you want, no matter how wrong it is. wink

i may be entitled to it but it seems i have to pay for it by getting bashed by you for expresssing it a little fascist wouldnt you say i think you should just take it easy youre working yourself up way too much and theres no money in it

Originally posted by Creshosk
I just find it funny that you ignore the fact that he's missing information, and then made stuff up to suppliment what wasn't there.

i went through this whole thread most of what you posted was attacking mr m and you hardly stayed on subject because you were so preoccupied trying to make mr m feel stupid whatever your grudge is is none of my concern but after reading everything imo mr m proved himself to be right he wasnt completely right at first but then he remade his statement to fit exactly with what was said in jamies bio which fits perfectly with what happened on panel as mr m demonstrated so well

jamie did create most of that universe according to his bio which is much closer than saying jamie only created the city theres no way "much of a universe" is a city so while you were both wrong mr m was closer to being right

thats my opinion

Mr Master

Originally posted by Creshosk
Exiles in't a universe, its a group of individuals.

So once again, you present evidence and then give your interpritation of it. You still haven't proven a bloody blasted thing.

Exiles isn't under the "REALITIES" category so .... erm

I'm starting to think you're messing with me.

Originally posted by Creshosk
And no, you won't present evidence of your points. You'll post scans and then speculation. You are incapable of doing anything else.

Actually I posted ON PANEL Proof and Bio Proof,

but as you wish.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Be it this mater, in regards to the phoenix or even in another thread where you used speculation to justify claims that THOTU was TOAA's power.

I'll say it right now,

THOTI was the Supreme Being's Power, no doubt about it.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Nothing concrete ever comes from you, just baseless opinions, speculation foiunded on shaky evidence. and scans that don't prove your points.

This is what you want me to pay attention to?

Originally posted by Creshosk
You my dazzle weak minded individuals into swallowing your bullshit,

but I can see that you're nothing more than a fraud.

forgetu

You don't deserve any respect at all after talking to anyone like this.

I tried to be civil, anyone can read through this thread,

you starting using an abusive undertone out of nowhere, you got a problem and I'm sorry but I'm not into the war of words nowadays, have fun, you won't be able to pull me in again.

You can PM me if you wanna you settle this like a gentleman. smile

Creshosk

Originally posted by Smoki
thats right you just insulted me instead by calling me weak minded for no reason except for me agreeing with mr m isnt that what part of what a sock does bashes forum members that agree with someone he doesnt like its obvious you dont like mr m but i think its unfair for you to attack others that do not agree with you Where did I direct the comment at you? Guilty concience? Hmm... were you dazzled?

Originally posted by Smoki
i may be entitled to it but it seems i have to pay for it by getting bashed by you for expresssing it a little fascist wouldnt you say i think you should just take it easy youre working yourself up way too much and theres no money in itIf you can't take criticism of your opinion don't post it on a public message board.
*snort* yeah, I'm getting too worked up over this, which is why you're the one offended by an off-hand cvomment, right? smile

Originally posted by Smoki
i went through this whole thread most of what you posted was attacking mr m and you hardly stayed on subject because you were so preoccupied trying to make mr m feel stupid whatever your grudge is is none of my concern but after reading everything imo mr m proved himself to be right he wasnt completely right at first but then he remade his statement to fit exactly with what was said in jamies bio which fits perfectly with what happened on panel as mr m demonstrated so well What fits is not the claim that he can create universes easily. He created most of a universe, that's in his bio. So I guess this "curbstomp" was based off of was shot down already.

Originally posted by Smoki
jamie did create most of that universe according to his bio which is much closer than saying jamie only created the city theres no way "much of a universe" is a city so while you were both wrong mr m was closer to being rightCloser to being right is still wrong. And I've repeatedly said that I'm fighting fire with fire. I know I'm wrong but I'm using his logic. So if I'm wrong then so is he.

Originally posted by Smoki
thats my opinion And its horrendously flawed. *shrugs* oh well. smile

Originally posted by Mr Master
Exiles isn't under the "REALITIES" category so .... erm

I'm starting to think you're messing with me.Look at the attached screen shot.. I didn't see any "definition" on the page you linked to on this mater, just articles and subcategories... including "Exiles"

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually I posted ON PANEL Proof and Bio Proof,

but as you wish. No, you linked to them but failed to show how it backs your claims, thus your claims are speculation.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'll say it right now,

THOTI was the Supreme Being's Power, no doubt about it. Nope, just more of your adding in information that doesn't exist.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is what you want me to pay attention to?

I don't care if you pay attention to that or not. You already discard what I wanted you to. *shrugs*
Originally posted by Mr Master
forgetu

You don't deserve any respect at all after talking to anyone like this.Like I care what you think. Isn't it obvious I already don't respect you? All you ever do is speculate. What's worthy of respect there?

Originally posted by Mr Master
I tried to be civil, Calling someone a dick is not being civil.

Originally posted by Mr Master
anyone can read through this thread,And? What is this a popularity contest to see who can kiss the most asses? Sorry I don't do that.

Originally posted by Mr Master
you starting using an abusive undertone out of nowhere, you got a problem and I'm sorry but I'm not into the war of words nowadays, have fun, you won't be able to pull me in again.Obviously. You'd rather dismiss my points as irrealivant. So I couldn't debate with you anyway. Cause you don't care about the truth, you only care about being right.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You can PM me if you wanna you settle this like a gentleman. smile

Pssh, politeness and manners are a form of lieing to someone. I'm at least honest in my thoughts.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Galan007
Jamie would warp Phoenix, just like he warped her birdcage.

thumb up

Mr Master

Originally posted by llagrok
Jamie in a curbstomp 10/10

thumb up

Mr Master

Originally posted by Smoki
thumbsup impressive mr m this really makes sense its good to be able to always come back and find some awesome information i like excalibur i always liked theyre art but anyway you never miss a beat well done

thumb up

Mr Master

Originally posted by Galan007
If someone said Phoenix was "second only to God", that person is an absolute idiot, and shouldn't be taken seriously in the slightest. doped

thumb up

The apprentice is amongst us too it seems. doh

Mr Master

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
IRRC we don't know what happened. Jamie opened up a portal for Psylocke and Co to escape. He stayed back to buy time for the others to escape. And the First Fallen never came after them afterwards so he must have done something right.

For all intents and purposes, and this is just my opinion but I think Claremont was going to link Jamie to the First Fallen as Jean is linked to the Phoenix. I mean that was the point of the whole arc after all. The first fallen was supposed to be made into flesh...the whole First Foursaken thing between Jamies friends seemed like a cop out. And I'm not even sure if they're still mutants.

I agree.

It left me with asking questions, either there will be a follow up or it's another Marvel disaster at hand.

Mr Master

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I think having a counterpart to the Phoenix makes sense though, it creates balance. If he turns out to be Jamie Braddock made Flesh then I'll have to like him.

That would be interesting.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Well If Jamie's to return then the First Fallen will have to return at some point in the future, but chances are that will only happen once this Phoenix thing becomes less convoluted and Jean gets all her fragments back and gets a cosmic mini of her own.

Whatever happened with the the Stepford Cuckoos that you know about EC?

They were controlling the Force but Warsong was such an unrelated story to Endsong

that I gave up on it.

I thought Warsong would give us closer on X-Men #154 or Endsong but noooo.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Or the other extreme, Jean Grey and the Phoenix Force are wiped from Marvel Continuity forever.

big grin

Mr Master

Originally posted by Utrigita
Jamie in a stomp

thumb up

starlock

Phoenix for the win

No solid proof, alot of opinons-speculations

llagrok

Originally posted by starlock
Phoenix for the win

No solid proof, alot of opinons-speculations

starlock

Originally posted by llagrok

The ever mysterious llagrok,not surprising your only using a smiley smile

Mr Master

Originally posted by starlock
Phoenix for the win

No solid proof, alot of opinons-speculations

What solid proof is there to say Phoenix would win?

Just a question. smile

starlock

Feats- when its stated that WCP is manipulating the atoms telekineticly of a universes future

And its speculation that jamie is afecting a universe to say he can create a universe as fast as some would say is speculation....nothing on panel is solid proof...i respect your opinon of how you think the scans and such show that it can be an opinon of yours..but that is where it fails

Seriously...LT has had an interest in Phoenix,the watcher,and numerous others...

Jamie can alter reality thats all...i dont believe its the winning power set in this case...
Phoenix has vast telepathy and telekinetic powers,transmutation,gateways
jamie is insane..it can be debated that CIS is a possibility..added together it does not feel right to say Jamie wins...especially in a curbstop

Thanks for the polite response..at least we can debate like gentleman

llagrok

If he has universal scale reality warping, how can he not create a universe?

starlock

Originally posted by llagrok
If he has universal scale reality warping, how can he not create a universe?

What if he was a omniversle reality warper? does that mean nothing short of omniversle power would beat him? what if he can create a omniverse? would that make him undefeatable?

I am not of the mind that a power (any power)means that telepathy wont work(or other powers)...especially a insane character

i have seen the dark phoenix shut off colossus's power,we have seen surfer shut off cables xgene,just because he has reality powers..no matter how far reaching does not mean that a lesser power(or different power-set) cant win...why make comic books at all then...yes i know this is a site with rules and to me they favor WCP especially that CIS could be a factor here

Mr Master

Originally posted by starlock
Feats- when its stated that WCP is manipulating the atoms telekineticly of a universes future

True.

Jamie had absolute control of a Universe too though,
as you know he turned all the Stars in that Universe into snowflakes,

so they both have Universal control.

Originally posted by starlock
And its speculation that jamie is afecting a universe to say he can create a universe as fast as some would say is speculation....

Actually I was wrong about that,

he didn't create the entire Universe,

just MOST of it according to his official Bio, which isn't speculation.

Phoenix has never even created a Galaxy.

btw. Jamie did have absolute control of that Universe though.

Originally posted by starlock
nothing on panel is solid proof...

Which is why I posted his official Bio to clarify things,

Jamie did in fact Create "MUCH of that Reality"

not just a City ... that's solid proof.

Originally posted by starlock
i respect your opinon of how you think the scans and such show that it can be an opinon of yours..but that is where it fails

That positive feeling is mutual. smile

But it's no opinion that Jamie Created "MUCH of that Universe."

Originally posted by starlock
Seriously...LT has had an interest in Phoenix,the watcher,and numerous others...

LT had an interest in She-Hulk,

he actually gave her a job.

Originally posted by starlock
Jamie can alter reality thats all...

Evidently Jamie can create aswell.

Originally posted by starlock
i dont believe its the winning power set in this case...

Only that's not his only powerset.

Originally posted by starlock
Phoenix has vast telepathy

Telepathic attacks don't work on Jamie.

Originally posted by starlock
and telekinetic powers,

Jamie controls the Quantum Strings of the Universe (Reality itself)

Telekinesis moves matter (in Phoenix's case at the atomic level)

Jamie can move, mold, erase or recreate any form of matter at the Quantum level.

Originally posted by starlock
transmutation,

Jamie controls Reality, changing forms is nothing to him.

Originally posted by starlock
gateways

Jamie can Dimension hop effortlessly.

Originally posted by starlock
jamie is insane..it can be debated that CIS is a possibility..added together it does not feel right to say Jamie wins...especially in a curbstop

Cool.

Originally posted by starlock
Thanks for the polite response..at least we can debate like gentleman

Absolutely friend.

starlock

I am very happy i was not swarmed with scans and i was spoken to and debated in a very percise manner...thanks Mr Master i might not agree with alot of your views,but at least its a great start in understanding eachother.i always thought an abundance of scans somtimes clouds a persons meaning of their views,and somtimes makes a debate hard to follow

WCP for the win

Mr Master

Originally posted by starlock
I am not of the mind that a power (any power)

means that telepathy wont work(or other powers)...especially a insane character

Scatterbrain's ability to fry someone's brain is FAR, FAR beyond Phoenix's ability.

Scatterbrain can expand a Consciousness across the entire Omniverse in an instant:

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/4875/obb4.th.jpg

"With her touch,
the Guard finds his Consciousness instantly EXPANDED,
Across the Infinite Breath of the OMNI-VERSE"

Here's Scatterbrain trying that move on insane Jamie:

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/2530/j3pg6.th.jpg

Doesn't work,

in fact, Jamie reversed the effect and she fried herself.

Originally posted by starlock
i have seen the dark phoenix shut off colossus's power,we have seen surfer shut off cables xgene,

Those are nobodies in comparison with Jamie.

Originally posted by starlock
just because he has reality powers..no matter how far reaching does not mean that a lesser power(or different power-set) cant win...

I have to disagree with this.

Originally posted by starlock
CIS could be a factor here

It's plausible.

But,

good thing we don't have to adhere to Comic book protocols to make a story last.

In other words, PIS and CIS takes place within the pages of Comics, not here (or should not be here)

Mr Master

Originally posted by starlock
I am very happy i was not swarmed with scans

Ey,

I'll never stop presenting proof with my statements. stick out tongue

The difference now is, if a person doesn't get it the first time around with the scans,
what's left to say?

Nothing.

Except get frustrated and end up in a childish verbal war.

No more of that. cool

Originally posted by starlock
and i was spoken to and debated in a very percise manner...thanks Mr Master

Of course, I only used to bite back, never first, yesterday an old but new hater tried to take me there, it nearly worked until I caught on to her ploy. She must be on her monthly cycle or something cause she came out the woodworks with an unprovoked attitude.

Originally posted by starlock
i might not agree with alot of your views,but at least its a great start in understanding eachother.

cheers

Originally posted by starlock
i always thought an abundance of scans somtimes clouds a persons meaning of their views,and somtimes makes a debate hard to follow

I personally like to see proof,
cause too may outlandish and exaggerated or non-existent claims are made.

Originally posted by starlock
WCP for the win

You know my opinion. smile

llagrok

Why do you feel that WCP wins Starlock? She can move things at an atomic level, Jamie can create, control, alter, do whatever the hell he wants.

What does it take for you to acknowledge that you're wrong? He has given you on panel evidence, shown you Jamie's bio. What more is there? I don't want to call you stubborn, but that's pretty much what you are.

starlock

Originally posted by llagrok
Why do you feel that WCP wins Starlock? She can move things at an atomic level, Jamie can create, control, alter, do whatever the hell he wants.

What does it take for you to acknowledge that you're wrong? He has given you on panel evidence, shown you Jamie's bio. What more is there? I don't want to call you stubborn, but that's pretty much what you are.

Its a versus debate with no stipulations,they start even with no powers active....that is for starters,Phoenix has on panel showing of shutting off a mutants power...phoenix has all the potential psionic energy there ever was or will be..there is a legitamate call for CIS...it helps me pick the wcp....

llagrok

Originally posted by starlock
Its a versus debate with no stipulations,they start even with no powers active....that is for starters,Phoenix has on panel showing of shutting off a mutants power...phoenix has all the potential psionic energy there ever was or will be..there is a legitamate call for CIS...it helps me pick the wcp....

Her power shutdown feats are only so-so. I agree that it wouldn't be complete PIS if she was in fact capable of shutting down his powers. I just don't think it's believable that she would be capable of shutting down someone at his level. If she does, then okay, I'll accept it.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

starlock

Originally posted by llagrok
Her power shutdown feats are only so-so. I agree that it wouldn't be complete PIS if she was in fact capable of shutting down his powers. I just don't think it's believable that she would be capable of shutting down someone at his level. If she does, then okay, I'll accept it.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

No Problem...i just think no stipulations and starting on an even playing field gives her a better chance...i would not give her 10/10 though

I just get the feeling people think because i had a problem with MR Master in the past that i dont debate fairly...not true..take the time to look at my post(i know its a pain to do hehe) but i am in alot of threads that have nothing to do with cosmics and such

I am at work when on the computer..so alot of my post are quick and short...and i dont have a scanner handy...i like to verbaly get my message across

llagrok

Originally posted by starlock
No Problem...i just think no stipulations and starting on an even playing field gives her a better chance...i would not give her 10/10 though

I just get the feeling people think because i had a problem with MR Master in the past that i dont debate fairly...not true..take the time to look at my post(i know its a pain to do hehe) but i am in alot of threads that have nothing to do with cosmics and such

I am at work when on the computer..so alot of my post are quick and short...and i dont have a scanner handy...i like to verbaly get my message across

At least you're gifted enough to know how a scanner works. I'm still trying to figure out ours and how to make the scans look all nice and such. Since I don't own anything but Wolverine, Spider man and X-men comics (give or take some FF, IM and Thor) it's hard to get any worthwhile scans at all.

I don't know how to upload scans from the comics I've downloaded though, wish there was a way.

But anyways, I get what you're saying and I didn't think you had anything against Mr.M. You did in fact acknowledge the scans and posts that he brought up, I see that now.

Unlike certain Galactic storms, you actually acknowledge other people's posts smile

starlock

Originally posted by llagrok
At least you're gifted enough to know how a scanner works. I'm still trying to figure out ours and how to make the scans look all nice and such. Since I don't own anything but Wolverine, Spider man and X-men comics (give or take some FF, IM and Thor) it's hard to get any worthwhile scans at all.

I don't know how to upload scans from the comics I've downloaded though, wish there was a way.

But anyways, I get what you're saying and I didn't think you had anything against Mr.M. You did in fact acknowledge the scans and posts that he brought up, I see that now.

Unlike certain Galactic storms, you actually acknowledge other people's posts smile

To make scans look good ...you would need a paint program(adobe photoshop or paintshop pro) they have one step options to crop/enhance color and such

From downloadable comics...hmmmm when you are on a page you might want to scan-right click on the page and see what options come up....
this is not the place...but i have actually made sigs and such and created my own gifs,i was even a member of freedom reborn- a freedom force game site and i uesed to make skins, hex 3d models and make FX for powers,helped make mods and voice overs and such....pm me if you ever need help...i am a kind fellow who does not mind helping someone out...even if we disagree on versus battles hehe

BTW sorry for the derailing of the thread WCP for the majority

Mr Master

Originally posted by llagrok
I don't know how to upload scans from the comics I've downloaded though, wish there was a way.

I'll show you how to do this part atleast,

through PM though, give me a sec.

Creshosk

Originally posted by llagrok
If he has universal scale reality warping, how can he not create a universe? There's a world of difference between being able to manipulate something.

http://www.marvel.com/universe3zx/images/thumb/c/c8/Pyro.png/442px-Pyro.png

And being able to create something

http://www.marvel.com/universe3zx/images/thumb/e/ec/Ultimate_human_torch.jpg/442px-Ultimate_human_torch.jpg

No matter how good you are at manipulating something creation of that thing is still a seperate ability. And still requires on panel proof that you can.

llagrok

He's been shown to create parts of a universe. I know he can create one.

Human Torch and Pyro, wow, nice example.

Creshosk

Originally posted by Mr Master
In other words, PIS and CIS takes place within the pages of Comics, not here (or should not be here) PIS doesn't CIS still does.

Creshosk

Originally posted by llagrok
He's been shown to create parts of a universe. I know he can create one.

Human Torch and Pyro, wow, nice example.

Pyro has been shown to be able to manipulate fire, he can not create it.

Give me some on panel proof of him creating a universe, not merely controling one that might have been already there. Cause that's all he's got so far.

Mr Master

Originally posted by llagrok
He's been shown to create parts of a universe.

Yea, Jamie Created from nothingness "MUCH of that Reality" (Universe) On Panel, and in his Bio,

while Phoenix has never even created a Galaxy, heck not even a Solar System.

IMO, (based on facts)

Pound for pound Jamie's done more.

They both can control a Universe, but Jamie can Create "MUCH" of a Universe
while Phoenix has never even create a Solar System.

Creshosk

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea, Jamie Created from nothingness "MUCH of that Reality" (Universe) On Panel, and in his Bio,

while Phoenix has never even created a Galaxy, heck not even a Solar System.

IMO, (based on facts)

Pound for pound Jamie's done more.

They both can control a Universe, but Jamie can Create "MUCH" of a Universe
while Phoenix has never even create a Solar System. And you're stilltrying to play up his feats by downplaying the phoenix.

And yes she created a universe. She created the "Here comes tomorrow universe by seperating it from 616. So if you want to play up feats two can still play at that game. Since "Here comes tomorrow" isn't 616, and it was Jean who forced a a seperation of it from 616. I can claim that she created a universe. By going back in time(!) and forcing Scott to stay with Emma she forced a new universe into creation.

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Mr Master

Originally posted by llagrok
He's been shown to create parts of a universe.

Also,

that Universe must have been a pocket universe, which Jamie then expanded into a Universe,

it's the only reasonable explanation behind the Bio stating Jamie Created "Much of that Reality"

This makes sense,

when Kitty tried to return to that Universe through Widget's Dimensional Gate that was functioning 100% only moments before, she was unable to return, there was nothing on the other side.

Actually, taking Jamie's Bio into account, the Gate must've been place in a part of the Universe that was created by Jamie, therefore when Kitty tried to use the Gate, the specific destination it lead to was erased when 616 Jamie feel asleep.

Widget's Gate was outside of that Alternate Realitie's City where the Dirty AAngels were from, so Widget's Gate, not working, had NOTHING to do with the Dirty Angels' City disappearing.

Creshosk

You know that's kind of pathetic to respond to my points by quoting some one else to keep up the fascade of you being done with me. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Mr Master
Also,

that Universe must have been a pocket universe, which Jamie then expanded into a Universe,

it's the only reasonable explanation behind the Bio stating Jamie Created "Much of that Reality"Still just speculation.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This makes sense,

when Kitty tried to return to that Universe through Widget's Dimensional Gate that was functioning 100% only moments before, Prove it.

Originally posted by Mr Master
she was unable to return, there was nothing on the other side.Speculation.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually, taking Jamie's Bio into account, the Gate must've been place in a part of the Universe that was created by Jamie, Prove he created it, cause once again you're deviating from the on prroof an in bio evidence to play up his feats.
"The universe that was created by jamie"

I knew it. You didn't take back your statements of him creating universes with the modifier. You added the modifier to get me off your back.

Originally posted by Mr Master
therefore when Kitty tried to use the Gate, the specific destination it lead to was erased when 616 Jamie feel asleep.Speculation. He could have set up a block before hand. Which is speculation as well, but just as valid as your speculation.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Widget's Gate was outside of that Alternate Realitie's City where the Dirty AAngels were from, so Widget's Gate, not working, had NOTHING to do with the Dirty Angels' City disappearing. Prove it. You're just speculating... AGAIN.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Creshosk
You know that's kind of pathetic to respond to my points by quoting some one else to keep up the fascade of you being done with me.

Dude, take it easy, I'm trying to answer your other post.

What the heck is your problem?

If the unnecessary aggresive undertone is still there I won't indulge you.

I am speculating now, that's why I said, "must have been" instead of "was."

Originally posted by Creshosk
Prove it.

Read the Comic.

You should know the Gate was functional if you read it.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Speculation.

Kitty was unable to return to that Alternate Dimension once Jamie fell asleep.

No speculation, I posted the scans several times.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Prove he created it, cause once again you're deviating from the on prroof an in bio evidence to play up his feats.
"The universe that was created by jamie"

I knew it. You didn't take back your statements of him creating universes with the modifier. You added the modifier to get me off your back.
dontgetit
Originally posted by Mr Master
the Gate must've been place IN A PART of the Universe that was created by Jamie

"IN A PART of the Universe that was created by Jamie"

Did Jamie not create "MUCH" of that Universe?

So there must have been PARTS that were Created by him.

The Gate must've been in one of those parts.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Speculation. He could have set up a block before hand. Which is speculation as well, but just as valid as your speculation.

Ok, it's plausible but I doubt it, especially considering he fell asleep beforehand.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Prove it. You're just speculating... AGAIN.

As you wish.