Dueling curiosities

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kamhal
Did you notice that:

- Sidious, the suppose ultimate sith lord, can't just win a lightsaber duel in the movies? He lost against windu and yoda actually disarms him during the duel. Hmm...
- Yoda is suppose to be better then windu, THE grand master. Yet he couldn't beat Sidious while windu actually did it.
- Anakin is so good that owns dooku quite fast. Yet, he can't beat obi-wan, who was showed inferior to dooku and beat by him in a quite humiliating way both of their fights.
- Kit fisto destroyed 2 magna guards in what, 2 swipes? Yet anakin and obi-wan need more time destroy just 1 of them, YET kit fisto was killed by sidious with 3 swipes...

Can you remember more of these?

-Silver Falcon-
Originally posted by kamhal
Did you notice that:

- Sidious, the suppose ultimate sith lord, can't just win a lightsaber duel in the movies? He lost against windu and yoda actually disarms him during the duel. Hmm...
- Yoda is suppose to be better then windu, THE grand master. Yet he couldn't beat Sidious while windu actually did it.
- Anakin is so good that owns dooku quite fast. Yet, he can't beat obi-wan, who was showed inferior to dooku and beat by him in a quite humiliating way both of their fights.
- Kit fisto destroyed 2 magna guards in what, 2 swipes? Yet anakin and obi-wan need more time destroy just 1 of them, YET kit fisto was killed by sidious with 3 swipes...

Can you remember more of these?

- They were totally different situations and there are several reasons as to why what happened, happened.

- Windu defeated Sidious only because he used Vapaad against him. Plus, he had Shatterpoint, as well.

- I believe that is because Kenobi knows Anakin from head to toe, he knows his movements, powers, weaknesses, advantages, disadvantages, saber styles, etc etc... while Dooku understimated him knowing almost nothing about his powers & skills.

-That's also quite weird, but I didn't know about that. Where do you saw/read about it?

Darth Hord
Originally posted by kamhal
Did you notice that:- Anakin is so good that owns dooku quite fast. Yet, he can't beat obi-wan, who was showed inferior to dooku and beat by him in a quite humiliating way both of their fights.

That whole thing about Anakin and Obiwan knowing each other so well comes into play but you do have a point with the sidious one.

And the magnaguards could have been more advanced by ROTS or it was just be stupid to see them lose in one swing in the movie.

-Silver Falcon-
See my points above, Hord.

Darth Hord
I did

-Silver Falcon-
Great eek!

Darth Hord
Was I suppose to look at anything in particular?

kamhal
I laughing from the last 4 posts. I mean, now I laughing from the last 5

By the way, laughing

Darth Hord
Originally posted by kamhal
I laughing from the last 4 posts. I mean, now I laughing from the last 5

By the way, laughing

WTF what pills u on?

-Silver Falcon-
Originally posted by Darth Hord
Was I suppose to look at anything in particular?

Not really.

Darth Hord
K

DARKLORDCAEDUS
Originally posted by -Silver Falcon-
- They were totally different situations and there are several reasons as to why what happened, happened.

- Windu defeated Sidious only because he used Vapaad against him. Plus, he had Shatterpoint, as well.

- I believe that is because Kenobi knows Anakin from head to toe, he knows his movements, powers, weaknesses, advantages, disadvantages, saber styles, etc etc... while Dooku understimated him knowing almost nothing about his powers & skills.

-That's also quite weird, but I didn't know about that. Where do you saw/read about it?

This is true.

kamhal
Anyone said it wasn't? But now try to see, for example, all these ROTS situations, WITHOUT knowing shit about vaadpad, shatterpoint, etc. I certainly find it strange.

Violent2Dope
I'm not positive but didn't Sidious lose on purpose so that he could win over Anakin?

kamikz
Not the saber part, no.



The Todd - I'd like to fake your saber part.


Donno, just seemed appropriate. Hi-five.

-Silver Falcon-
Originally posted by kamhal
Anyone said it wasn't? But now try to see, for example, all these ROTS situations, WITHOUT knowing shit about vaadpad, shatterpoint, etc. I certainly find it strange.

Well, yes... I see your point, it's true.

ESB -1138
Originally posted by kamhal
Did you notice that:

- Sidious, the suppose ultimate sith lord, can't just win a lightsaber duel in the movies? He lost against windu and yoda actually disarms him during the duel. Hmm...
- Yoda is suppose to be better then windu, THE grand master. Yet he couldn't beat Sidious while windu actually did it.
- Anakin is so good that owns dooku quite fast. Yet, he can't beat obi-wan, who was showed inferior to dooku and beat by him in a quite humiliating way both of their fights.
- Kit fisto destroyed 2 magna guards in what, 2 swipes? Yet anakin and obi-wan need more time destroy just 1 of them, YET kit fisto was killed by sidious with 3 swipes...

Can you remember more of these?

-Yoda and Mace are excellent lightsaber duelist. No matter how good one is he can always lose a battle.

-Mace didn't have senate pods being hurled at him left and right and he didn't have to jump dozens of feet to get to Palpatine. When Mace dueled Palpatine they were on equal ground.

-Dooku defeated Obi-Wan with the Force not his skill with a lightsaber. Also Obi-Wan trained and taught Anakin so he should know all his moves which would help.

-Never seen/heard Kit do that.

MadMel
it was probably in the cartoon "clone wars" series, which really arent cannon, given that windu was flying hundreds of metres into the air with a single jump, and obi wan was reflecting laser and metal bullets with the force, which no jedi has ever been seen doing

ESB -1138
Originally posted by kamikz
Not the saber part, no.



The Todd - I'd like to fake your saber part.


Donno, just seemed appropriate. Hi-five.

I'll hi-five that! *snaps fingers afterwards*

And I would have gone something more on the line of the Todd saying, "give me five minutes and I'll find your shatterpoint."

Jaeh_JediPirate
Originally posted by ESB -1138
-Yoda and Mace are excellent lightsaber duelist. No matter how good one is he can always lose a battle.

-Mace didn't have senate pods being hurled at him left and right and he didn't have to jump dozens of feet to get to Palpatine. When Mace dueled Palpatine they were on equal ground.

-Dooku defeated Obi-Wan with the Force not his skill with a lightsaber. Also Obi-Wan trained and taught Anakin so he should know all his moves which would help.

-Never seen/heard Kit do that.

I think he got it all.

ESB -1138
Originally posted by Jaeh_JediPirate
I think he got it all.

The Todd - I think you get it all. Cyberspace hi-five! *snaps fingers* Awesome.


Ah crap, thanks kamikz now I'm stuck on doing the Todd jokes.

MadMel
haha laughing out loud

exanda kane
If you try and explain things like that logically, your gonna end up with a cock and bull analysis. The real answer for your "curiosities?". Drama.

kamikz
Originally posted by ESB -1138
The Todd - I think you get it all. Cyberspace hi-five! *snaps fingers* Awesome.


Ah crap, thanks kamikz now I'm stuck on doing the Todd jokes.



laughing out loud

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by kamhal
Did you notice that:

- Sidious, the suppose ultimate sith lord, can't just win a lightsaber duel in the movies? He lost against windu and yoda actually disarms him during the duel. Hmm...

Maybe this is more evidence to Sidious not being the strongest Sith Lord yet, even if he did one day become that.

Originally posted by kamhal
- Anakin is so good that owns dooku quite fast. Yet, he can't beat obi-wan, who was showed inferior to dooku and beat by him in a quite humiliating way both of their fights.

There is a school of thought in which Dooku feigned his loss to Anakin...

Darth Sexy
Good lord Glentract he was already the strongest sith lord by ROTS, stop trying to deny that. Not to mention him being the strongest sith lord doesn't necessarily equate to him being the strongest saber combatant, or hell even the strongest force user. Mace defeated him because with his shatterpoint and Vaapad, he is the most dangerous weapon against a dark sider, when it comes to saber combat. Yoda can still be better than Mace, but less effective against dark siders. Furthermore, Sidious possessed this overbearing confidence when he started fighting Windu, thinking he would destroy him, and it backfired. At the same time, Sidious considered Yoda his equal or at least the biggest threat to his power, so he would never underestimate him. Instead it was Yoda who underestimated Sidious.
Furthermore, the fight with Anakin is very simple. Not only is Obiwan's defense unparalleled in the Star Wars Universe, but he taught Anakin everything Anakin knew, so its every bit as logical for them to stalemate. It's not complicated people.

Tangible God
Originally posted by kamhal
Anyone said it wasn't? But now try to see, for example, all these ROTS situations, WITHOUT knowing shit about vaadpad, shatterpoint, etc. I certainly find it strange. Yes, well, all those who don't know about Vapaad and Shatterpoint aren't likely to delve so deeply into the schematics and layouts of the duels as we do.

darthsith19
But he was very close to both Yoda and Mace, and you forgot to mention that, up to that point, Yoda and Mace are likely the two strongest Jedi ever (alongside Revan maybe).

So many flaws here.
1, Being the grand master means you are the leader. Leader's aren't picked for their combat skills but for their leadership abilities and intuition.
2. Mace > Yoda with a blade and that is the only category that he beat Sidious in. Sidious faked the Force duel, he could have won if he hadn't been trying to turn Anakin to the dark side. I can provide proof of this if need be.
3. Windu only beat Sidious because of Vaapad.


Good points here, however, I can easily clarify this. First off, he only beat Kenobi so easily because he used the Force, which he couldn't do on Anakin because Anakin never let up. As for why Anakin beat him so quickly, the script says: "As the battle proceeds, OBI-WAN and COUNT DOOKU are tired. ANAKIN is stronger as he becomes angry. ". Also, the novel says something about the elegant form of Makashi not being able to withstand the powerful strokes of Djem So (or something like that).

The duel with Sidious was f*cked up, take that as an explanation if you will or disregard it, but it was really messed up.


Yes. Agen was stated in the ROTS novel to be one of the greatest swordsman that Order had ever produced (alongside Mace - this Order includes Hoth, Ulic, Kun, Yoda, Kenobi, Skywalker ect.) and he bested Quinlan Vos as well. Yet Sidious kills him in a second.


Edit: btw, Kit kills those Magnaguards so quickly not in the cartoon, but in LOE.

ESB -1138
Originally posted by darthsith19
Yes. Agen was stated in the ROTS novel to be one of the greatest swordsman that Order had ever produced (alongside Mace - this Order includes Hoth, Ulic, Kun, Yoda, Kenobi, Skywalker ect.) and he bested Quinlan Vos as well. Yet Sidious kills him in a second.


I have the explantion. That scene of Palpatine killing the three Jedi master with ease was just to show how bad @$$ the great dark Lord of the Sith could be.

Gideon
That would be the observation of either the ignorant or stupid, so let's edit: Sidious, the proven ultimate Sith Lord, was defeated in combat once in the movies, by Jedi Master Mace Windu, creator of the deadliest lightsaber form in history. Vaapad has an innate advantage against dark side duelists and coupled with Mace's ability to detect vulnerabilities and weaknesses, allows him to negate Sith advantages. Add to the fact that Palpatine didn't touch a lightsaber for thirteen years makes this victory much more believable.

And as for Yoda disarming him, the novelization nor the movie depict it. The script does, however the circumstances regarding Sidious being disarmed directly states that Yoda relieves Palpatine of his lightsaber, and then he leaps away from Palpatine after pwning him with his own lightning. It's complete bullshit, which is likely why Lucas didn't make it part of the movie. Otherwise, explain how an unarmed Sidious managed to escape a fully armed Yoda and put that much distance between himself and Yoda, despite never proving himself to be faster than the Jedi master.



Again, this is the observation of the ignorant or stupid. Yoda was not trained in Vaapad, so he doesn't have access to Vaapad's advantages against dark side duelists. Add to this that Palpatine seemingly fought harder against Yoda than he did against Mace.



I'm noticing a pattern in these "dueling curiosities". Anakin owned Dooku because he became an overwhelming onslaught of energy that Dooku could not simply contend with, whereas Obi-Wan fought smarter than Count Dooku and had the advantages of being in better physical condition and his intimate knowledge of Anakin helped the situation.



A good question, this time. I can't explain the discrepency concerning the Magnaguards, but Kit Fisto wasn't in Palpatine's league.

Darth Hord
The thing is Kit easily defeated them in the cartoon sis just that because it was the cartoons and the jedi were like demi-gods at times. But other times the magna guards would not be defeated easily. Maybe the combat programs were different will never know. But it would have been stupid in the movie if anakin and obiwan would destroy the in one swing on the invisible hand it would take away from their first appearance as body guard/elite droids.

kamhal
I think you have, at the least, misunderstood what i wanted with this thread. Everything you said i know, what i was talking about was somethings that i find interesting and that would be confusing for someone with little knowledge about star wars or EU...

exanda kane
In all honesty Kamhal, I don't think minor inconsistencies like the ones you mentioned would confuse someone who knew less about the EU, quite frankly because they wouldn't care to analyse it enough. To them, Star Wars is simply a film and not a topic to debate.

Plotholes and inconsistencies are hardly uncommon in Star Wars, but eventually they are paved over with EU material, explaining something illogical in the film. It seems Vapaad and Shatterpoint might be too of those in favour of Mace, either by design or coincidence (As both were published before RotS).

alterangel
Originally posted by DARKLORDCAEDUS
This is true.



WHY POST !?!?!? if you have nothing more to say then just answer me WHY!?!?!?

overlord
DARKLORDCAEDUS is a very important person on this forumz. His confirmation means a heck of a lot actually.

Count Makashi
Originally posted by alterangel
WHY POST !?!?!? if you have nothing more to say then just answer me WHY!?!?!?

This is true.

Gideon
Huh? Yoda > Mace in both categories.

ESB -1138
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Maybe this is more evidence to Sidious not being the strongest Sith Lord yet, even if he did one day become that.

Nah maybe that's just evidence that the dark side of the Force isn't some uber super power that can WTFpwn any being ever like the EU tries to show it as. Maybe that's evidence to the light side of the Force being superior to the dark side.

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