Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

well the democrats are also AMERICANS. and american politicians at that. im all for climate and this IS only an hypothesis. but could the renewed attempts by al gore be an attempt to avert attention from more serious matters like america's crimes in policing the world and causing worlwide strife on false pretexts to PRESERVE its interests. the timing is too good for this. as stated, THE DEFINITIVE dillemma of our time. could this be a joint venture by the patriotic among both parties to divert attention from i dunno, KILLING MILLIONS. and by pretending to to do this from the democratic side, it also does away with most suspicions and, instead of the democratic oppositions job to COUNTER the republican illegal immoral extremes, it changes the direction of most who oppose the bush regime into sumthing completely different to put their energies in. effectivelty decreasing oppositin to the wars and unfair market practices used to exploit the wrest of the world.

Right, America has never helped anyone. Ever. And we just slaughter any people we see that aren't Americans, just because we're America.

And for God's sake, what the **** was America thinking when it was trying to preserve its own interests? Geez man, what has this world come to...

And seriously, if you think that America exploits the rest of the world, you're dead wrong. Our trade deficit with China is astronomical and we go out of our way all the time to stay out of the way of smaller and less powerful nations. We get walked on by almost every country on Earth, we are criticized to the point that Americans are used to it, and we are ALWAYS the bad guys.

China, a few years back, shot down an American aircraft that was flying safely in international airspace. They shot it down, brought it back to China, and tore it apart piece by piece, stealing whatever they could. But China faced zero repercussions for that. In fact, AMERICANS were the bad guys, because China accused us of flying in their airspace. Funny, huh?

How about the oil embargo in the 1970s, when the Arab world refused to sell oil to the United States, quadrupling oil prices to almost $12 per gallon in 1973. But hey, you're right, America manipulates everyone to their own interests, and thinks of no one else.

I could go on and on with examples, but I figure it wouldn't help at all, since you seem fixed on Anti-America.

"Right, America has never helped anyone. Ever. And we just slaughter any people we see that aren't Americans, just because we're America."

not before causing the situation to begin with. then seemingly giving little help to keep face. in natural disatsers, the aid is nothing big, considering what america steals out. and its only to keep face. and it isnt just because your america, it just becauyseamerica exploits the world resources, keeps it in chaos, to easily exploit those resoursces, and has racist/conservatives/evangelicals running the government, with each category having a prejudice, to do harm to the greater part of the wrest of the world.

"And for God's sake, what the **** was America thinking when it was trying to preserve its own interests? Geez man, what has this world come to..."

ANYTHING that america can gain/adds to its economy/well being is now defined as its interest. gues what, IS THE RESOURCES/INTEREST OF THE WREST OF THE WORLD TOO. there are no laws or morals on how to take these INTERESTS. after all a billion dollars of a law abiding citizen are also a theif's INTEREST.

"And seriously, if you think that America exploits the rest of the world, you're dead wrong. Our trade deficit with China is astronomical and we go out of our way all the time to stay out of the way of smaller and less powerful nations. We get walked on by almost every country on Earth, we are criticized to the point that Americans are used to it, and we are ALWAYS the bad guys."

no, your dead wrong and blind. the trade deficit with china is astronomical because china is a super power and wont be taken advantage of economically{not that americans dont try}. its also like that cause they make cheap goods while not earning much profit per capita, and sell them to american customers, while american makers cant accept such low profits. and your wrong, america does not get WALKED on by any country. there are rare instances of stiffled voices coming out, but those are few and do not constitue in any way. anyhting moe than an individual or small organisation. as far as the heat from muslim countries, america humiliates them more throug the media and shrugs off any criticism. it actively sells arms and economic benefits to wartorn countries/governments/genocides in africa and south america.

"China, a few years back, shot down an American aircraft that was flying safely in international airspace. They shot it down, brought it back to China, and tore it apart piece by piece, stealing whatever they could. But China faced zero repercussions for that. In fact, AMERICANS were the bad guys, because China accused us of flying in their airspace. Funny, huh?"

ahh yes, believe the reliable statement of the american media and organisations. that aircraft was in chinese airspace and spying on their land. china doesnt stand for such policing crap and shot it down. i do not feal sorry for any1 other than the pilot and his family. america was in the wrong and should understand that it doesn have authority over the world. some wont stand for it.

"How about the oil embargo in the 1970s, when the Arab world refused to sell oil to the United States, quadrupling oil prices to almost $12 per gallon in 1973. But hey, you're right, America manipulates everyone to their own interests, and thinks of no one else."

first potentially true point youve brought up. the arabs{the sheikhs} are high headed bitches who wanted to make the best of a situation. so what, america uses their gulf for military deployement, their land for attacking and keeping military bases. and their politicians/relegious leaders for its agenda. and it more than makes up for the oil price by stealing oil from africa, afghanistan, iraq and kuwait.

"I could go on and on with examples, but I figure it wouldn't help at all, since you seem fixed on Anti-America. "

yes i bet you could with the limited biased, innacurate exampled youve memorised just so that you can justify your patriotic position. yet for every one of the things you mentions{even if we assume they are true in their totality and context, which they most definately are not} there are atleast a thousand more that america does completely wrong and disgusting. go on loving your beautiful country and living off of the livelyhoods and the BLOOD of the wrest of the world. its good isnt it. almost too good to question and risk leaving.

and btw, im not anti american per se. i hate the government, and foreign affair. the evangelists capitalists. the wrest{over 55% of the population} i would choose over most others in the world{although not all}. their ignorance is not their fault. but atleast teyr not actively evil.

oh and just so you know, im anti taliban, anti syria, anti pakistan, anti india, anti arabia, anti china, anti north korea, anti russia, anti pure capitalism, anti nazi, anti christian. anti islam, anti israel, anti saddam, anti facism, anti australia , anti brittian, anti france, anti hinduism, and anti many other things. consider that before you attemp to pass judgement on my personality as no1 seems to be passing it on yours{a fact you shud be thankful for, more than any other person}

Anti what now? Does that mean you hate all them countries and every person in them for the not so good things they have done? Is that not a bit sad? No one/country is perfect...

Originally posted by Magee
Anti what now? Does that mean you hate all them countries and every person in them for the not so good things they have done? Is that not a bit sad? No one/country is perfect...

i hate/dislike all the organisations/groupings mentioned there. or rather, im anti them{doesnt mean i really hate all muslims or christians, i just hate CHRISTIANITY/ISLAM,. see what i mean. many of my close friends are from these groups. i dont hate em. just the organisation/practice/philosophy and am against them. ofcourse things like capitalism/specific country IS an hypothetical contruct so yea, those i hate and am against} they are wrong and cause people strife unjustifyable. and there is a HUGE difference in between perfection and totally evil. i live not 7 houses away from the red mosque in pakistan. and since i nearly suffocated/burnt to my demise from a chemical gas grenade in my house yestreday and have had my home nearly give under the monstrous explosions ripping apart the neihbourhood while the government and musharraf openly kill media personal with direct fire. i think its safe to say that it wud be sadder to be on their side then against it. practically, once you are affected by these things, and have seen people's suffering, you feal like ripping the heads of of ignorant people who show CYNICISM/ignorance/sarcasm/arrogance while people are openly killed in the world because of it and of people taking advantage of it. live outside the west for a change. youll realise just how much america controls the livelehood ofthe world by directly paying off governments. and how they destroy regions/exploit regions with it. fn hell, the higher ups exploit america ITSELF with is. but dont let the media show the backwards areas destroyed by the war in iraq's soending and economic collapse controlled by evangelists and rednecks.

but then again, hate is never a positive on contructive emotion. so its best to try and do sumthing about it as oppsed to simply hating and opposing. its just that ignorance in such circumstances is frustrating. and its definately enough to denounce and fight such organisations/philosophies.

that was just retarded. You do realize this isn't the 1970s........we don't have U2s flying over countries. You do know what a satellite is right? We can recon any area on earth from the safe distance of orbiting our planet. You're about 20 years behind on the times man......might want to pick up a book.

not true. many types of survailance still work best on aircrafct. specially angular viewing. sattelite can only look down, ever heard the expression. furthermore, radiation destecting etc, work best in the atmostphere. also, most spy sattelites are working over time and cant keep up with the amount of areas needkig observing. or did you just think they were idiotic to be using unmanned drones in iraq/afganistan for survailance??? im not behind, you just need to brush up on your specifics.

are you now claiming that America was at war with China using air surveilance of enemy combatants to cooridante maneuvers? That is it's only use today.....and only because of timing issues, needing recon to coordinate military personell.............as you stated, Iraq and Afghanistan. There is no "spying" to it. What any of this has to do with keeping an eye on a friendly nation ...I dunno......perhaps you can cover that in your next post.

Leon, you tell me what would have happened if a Chinese plane was shot down by the United States and brought ashore, and held hostage until the Americans could pick every secret possible from it? Whether or not it was flying over American airspace is heavily debated however.

You know what would have happened? We'd be the bad guys. Big bad America picking on an innocent plane overflying our airspace.

Not that we would have shot it down anyway, since our leaders know the repercussions of such an action, even one of defense. The Chinese? They don't care. They shot down the plane and brought it ashore and held it for weeks, and what happened to them? Nothing.

well thas a question of prespective isnt it j-beowulf. you seem to looking at things from an extremely detailed but extremely ethnocentric perspective. when china shot down the plane, in the eyes of the american public/britich public/indian public, it was a BAD GUY whod shot a plane outside its jurisdiction. most definately for the patriotic majority in america. while the wrest of the world welcomed it{oddly you believe that it was outside their airspace based on no real evidence but the psuedo evidence and statements given by the armed forces of america} .
THE SAME WAY, if a plane was shot spying on america{supposedly} you and the wrest of the american public{specially the right wing} along with brittian/india would easily believe it was trespassing your airspace and it was justified, while china and the wrest of the world against america would deny that claim and say that it was flying outside your jurisdiction and it was a wrong move. see its the same, you neglect the other side. and PLEASE, do NOT tell me that a president who attacked iraq based on false pretext and continues to flood funds in an illegal immoral war which has officially claimed the lives of more than 2.5% of the entire population would HESITATE to fire a missile at a foreign military aircraft in his airspace, r understand the REPRECUSSIONS!!!! after all, what was the slogan the bastard used to march into iraq, oh yea. WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION!!!

btw, just for the record, if i put my personal fealings aside for the moment. as far as the situation is concerned. america would be totally justified in shooting down a foreign aricraft in its air space without being a BAD GUY. still double standards and looking at the big picture would put the situtation in the BULLY category. after all american soldiers just a few weeks ago crossed over into my country, pakistan and killed 200 innocent people in a supposed TALIBANISED VILLAGE. icluding numerous women and children/old people and no 1 cares. not to mention i was in peshawar at the time of the war, and despite denial form our and the american governments, wave after wave of B-2s/A-10s among many others kept passing DIRECTLY OVER OUR HEADS. which was a blatant violation of airspace and denial just made it worse.{see personal eyewitness testimony for me is far reliable than empty claims of denial. you simply dont understand the nature of governments these days. not JUST american but almost any1. its just that america has more power right now/radical evangelism. russia is no better, albeit, due to lack of compareable power as america, they CANT be the biggest bully even though theyr not any better}

as for evil dead's post. countries often use air survailance, even when not at war to try and pinpoint enemy mobilisation and activity of large movable structure {portable missile launchers. etc} which are too well hidden or camouflaged to be seen by sattelites. similarly, radiadion detection can only be done by air veheicles and is often done in peace, NOT war. and your wrong, the unmanned drones are often used for SPYING. even pre war. not COORDINATION. that can and is done, but its not exclusive to that.

Justified? Absolutely.

The rest of the world would not see it that way at all, though.

Originally posted by J-Beowulf
Justified? Absolutely.

The rest of the world would not see it that way at all, though.

now why did you have to repeat that. i told you it would be justified if we are considering JUST the situation. however looking at the big picture, it wud not really be. the very REASON you and other americans are shocked and bring up ridicule on that specific incident is because american media was SHOCKED that infact a country COULD excercise its right too shoot down AMERICAN aircrafts in violation of their airspace! because america violates people's air spaces and seas{iran example, same thing people were shocked because "how DARE they take american vessels as captives even if they were violating their seas. the problem is one of highheadeadness in the higher ups and thats how the story is played by the media} all the time. and no1 doesanything fearing the opposition from america. however strong defiant countries often do in peace. and that brings in redicule.

and i do not care about the wrest of the world. you were referring to ME when making those statement, ive shown you how your in the wrong there. the wrest of the world is idiotic, but then again, this kind of sentiment isnt just born purely of relegion or culture. mulims are not keen on hating newzealand/sweden. america has ****ED these places over in the past in one way or another, and that leads to hatred for it.

however we are severely off topic. this is not "hate america" thread. please give your oppinion on the topic.

The only reason why America is hated is because it is the world power. When Great Britain was the world power, it was hated by all. When France was a world power it was hated by all. When India or China or whoever becomes the next world power, they too will be hated by all. It's just the natural scheme of things to hate thsoe who basically hold the leash.

utterly untrue. when india was a world power in the times of akbar, every1 LOVED IT. there are many such examples. the tthe reason for the hate is the undermining and policing of the world to REMAIN a superpower. being a superpower isnt a cause of hate. its an EFFECT!

I doubt everyone loved it. Not too mention that India wasn't the only world power.

most did, and india WAS the only world power at the time of akbar the great.

You like to make unfair generalisations about people/ countries which make me laugh rather hard indeed. Stop acting like you know what millions of people think based on there nationality. To hate whole countries based on what there governments do is just silly my friend.

There is now climate crisis, look at the facts. In fact the Co2 output, which is so minimal in comparisonits meaningless anyway, is benefiting the enviroment.

Theres is no climate change, we are comming out of an ice age so some parts are getting warmer, but the majority of the world temperatures are the same as in the 18 hundreds.

And methane from cow farts are a bigger greenhouse gas than co2. FACT

Originally posted by Bicnarok
Theres is no climate change, we are comming out of an ice age so some parts are getting warmer, but the majority of the world temperatures are the same as in the 18 hundreds.

And methane from cow farts are a bigger greenhouse gas than co2. FACT Damn cows!

actually. this isnt a forum to debate the prescence of a climatye crisis. undoubtedly, there is one! but it has been around for a while. why NOW, is al gore so passionately{with RENEWED passion mind you, far more than ever before} boosting it in the media. surely there are more immediate issues reqiuring his face and influence. why this one which is turning effort and energy of the left away from countering the blatant crimes of the right wing?

like the current state of the world. illegal wars, deception, genocides, corporate monopolies, no freedom of expression, economic blackmailing, prescence and develpment of nuclear weaponry, largest amount being spent on wars or preperation for wars, drought, hunger, aids, crippling diseases. that sort of thing.

Hello Mr. Al Gore your work is good.

Conspiricies are silly, no?

Originally posted by Bicnarok
or 10 ft, 6 armed, acid bleeding, machete wielding aliens about to kill us all.

You mean President Bush and his family?-

no conspiracies in what i mentioned my man.