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Defiance Kan and Raziel vs. AC Cloud and Seph.

*Sweatdrops*

Kain & Raziel for the win.

Bah.

Team FFVII loses.

Bump.

It would go on forever, Cloud would die, but the others would just keep coming back. No clear outcome for this one.

lmao....funny fight

^Yeah you would think so.

...

j/k

Kain and Raziel win this if Cloud and Seph don't have their time manipulating, life reviving, mind manipulating materia. 13

Yes, they do all exist in FF7.

trouble is the FF team couldnt win this at all, not with anything, since from what ive seen half their big spells and main hitters take ages to cast and kain can power up a spell with a thought, or just click his fingers to set a spark in thieir brains, making them mentally broken

bye

details on kain and Raziel (at first i thought u were referring to the american beat boxer Rhazel..)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_of_Kain

time, dimension, mind, soul powers to name some, some weather manip, he cant die..erm..what else..hmm..

theres tonnes of information on many kain VS threads i may have posted

Cant die eh? well this is gonna be stalemate with Seph then (Cloud dead) unless when u say cant die, he cant be KO'd at all/ defeated which i think is unlikely or he wouldnt be an antagonist

hmm, he can be possibly KOed, possibly, but the problem lies for Sephiroth how, the only time Kain has been KOed in his prime is when he wasnt trying to fight at all.

trying to KO a guy who with a thought can freeze you in time, render you cartonic or with a gesture rip the soul from your body

how can Seph not die

Kain is actually a playable character. So is Raziel. They just...don't die.

And it's a good question on what the Soul Reaver would do to Sephiroth if he was stabbed with it. His soul isn't like a normal one in LoK.

hmm what is Sephiroths soul...

can it be ripped out? is it singular, if its many souls in one then the reaver could drain them all. Also what would happen if Sephiroth had no blood in his body? had body parts removed etc etc

If we're talking AC Sephiroth his body is made up of just Jenova cells and negative mako. He has no blood to remove, and his will prevents anything from happening to his soul. Thats why he never dies.

he has a soul? excellent, so with time frozen hell have both no will to stop anything, he wont have a say in it and his soul will be ripped, or he gets shredded

Then he just comes back though. Sephiroth's will prevents anything from happening to his soul, time freeze or not. Hell, his will allowed him to resist the entire planet and lifestream, it could probably resist time freeze too.

bs probably probably probably, he wont have any will....how will he have will when his soul is gone...will is a thing of the mind, its not an outside source, with his soul gone hes a gonner, has he ever had his soul removed before?

this will thing sounds like some weightless hyperbole

Yes, everytime he's "died" his soul was removed. His will power is not attached to his body, its all in his soul. He could easily resist being sperated from the Jenova matter. You don't seem to understand that Sephiroth's will has bested the most powerful things in FF VII's universe. His soul can't be destroyed or removed from his body.

besting the most powerful things in FF and besting kain are completly diffrent things

like besting spiderman is not the same as besting MJJ

what do you talk about now, first you say his soul was "removed" every time he died, then you say "his soul cannot be removed from his body"...this seems like a contradiction to me, his soul will be safely stored in the reaver for raziel to swallow. Sephiroth will be no more.

If his body is intact he cannot be seperated from it. If his body is completely destroyed though, then his soul is all he's left with, thats how it is out of a body but cannot be removed from his body if he has one.

Also, his soul is still an extremely powerful opponent, it nearly killed Cloud. And then we have to consider that Sephiroth's will would keep him from going into the soul reaver, just as it prevented him joining the lifestream.

the lifestream and the reaver are two diffrent things, nothing in kainverse has ever escaped the reavers imprisonment, the lifestream is like the underworld or the river of souls for FFverse is it not? its basically all he is doing if this is true, is not going to the underworld, wheras being forcefully imprisoned is diffrent altogether

also where does it say or state this? or where does it happen, his soul cannot be touched while his body is present? not that it matters, kain ahs all the time in the world to blast it to pieces with various means of spells but what makes you belive his soul cannot be touched?

The fact that his will prevents anything from hurting his soul is where I'm getting this from, he can always retain his spirit energy. Also, resisting the lifestream would be much harder to resist than the soul reaver, and this is coming from a fan of both series'. The power of the entire planet and Minerva is more to resist than the soul reaver.

And I don't know why you're focusing so much on Kain. Raziel would be the bigger threat by far, because he can pop up again as soon as he's downed.

wtf lol, this is where you show your little knowledge on kain since Kain would not be downed at all, yes Raziel will pop up again but he lacks many means to fight the two FF

Kain on the other hand has all the means to incapitate them, all this about Sephiroths will is suspect to me, can you prove these things, that his will will stop anything ,also what makes you think the lifestream soul taking>>soul reavers? the Soul reaver has had no failures or difficulties...the Lifestream if Sephiroth has resisted it has one..whats the lfiestream, is it a lifestealer, its just like a river of souls...

also his soul wont be hurt, just imprisoned...

Kain time controls and then does whatever he likes...he will kill Sephiroths brain with a mind spark and then leave him retarded on the floor playing with clouds broken body

Sephiroth's mind can't be broken silly. If it could he would be just another part of the lifestream by now. His will has prevented death 3 times, prevents his soul from diverging with the lifestream(which has the power of all spirit energy on the planet and the godess Minerva, more to resist than the soul reaver), held back the most powerful spell in existance, and allows him to keep coming back.

A mere mind spark would do nothing to Sephiroth. Even with this, considering Sephiroth's speed and power Kain's body would be destroyed before he could think about doing any of his special attacks.

you truly lack knowledge on kain
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Sephiroth's mind can't be broken silly. prove it..
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
more to resist than the soul reaver)
nothing resists the soul reaver...thats the difference...it cannot be resisted, it simply does what it does...also, soul stealing is not the only thing that kain can do to kill seph
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
considering Sephiroth's speed and power Kain's body would be destroyed before he could think about doing any of his special attacks. kain is as fast if not faster than seph, and even if seph did somehow "destroy" kain, he will simply come back...kain always come back, and he does it much faster than seph does..
your forgetting one thing...seph never instantly moves in for the kill...he gloats and toys with people...kain is the exact opposite...he pauses only to gain information, then he slaughters whatever gets in his way, the only exception being raz, whom kain needed to live..
Originally posted by Burning thought
nothing in kainverse has ever escaped the reavers imprisonment
*cough* raziel *cough*
except that was a plot device

His will can prevent death and hold back the most powerful magic in history. Its safe to it would prevent Sephiroth losing his mind.



The lifestream is inescapable as well. Sephiroth defied the universe itself when he cheated it and death like that. And Raziel escabed the Soul Reaver, so apparently it can be done.

And once again, Sephiroth is stronger and faster than Kain, he would definitely kill him first.



Umm, Sephiroth can move instantaneously, Kain isn't faster than him. The only reason Sephiroth doesn't demonstrate his speed in AC is because he wants to keep Cloud alive and make him suffer, in CC, his weakest form, he lets it all out against Zack.

Kain's unkillable, you probably meant he'll defeat him first.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
His will can prevent death and hold back the most powerful magic in history. Its safe to it would prevent Sephiroth losing his mind. except that seph already lost his mind..forgot that part

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
The lifestream is inescapable as well. Sephiroth defied the universe itself when he cheated it and death like that. And Raziel escaped the Soul Reaver, so apparently it can be done raziel only escaped because the reaver hit raziel, thus creating a paradox that broke the sword..

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
And once again, Sephiroth is stronger and faster than Kain, he would definitely kill him first. 1. kain cant die
2. prove hes faster (i know that he is stronger, but when it comes to speed, they are fairly equal)

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Umm, Sephiroth can move instantaneously, Kain isn't faster than him. The only reason Sephiroth doesn't demonstrate his speed in AC is because he wants to keep Cloud alive and make him suffer, in CC, his weakest form, he lets it all out against Zack.
Umm, kain can teleport instantaneously, good match ..also, zack is mortal, and he still survived seph's assult..and you think that kain, who has 3-5000 years more experience, survived losing his heart, and is NOT mortal cant take seph's hits?

He never lost his mind, he lost his composure and burned down Nibeheim, which was before he got his boost in power anyway. He quickly realized the truth of Jenova and came up with a much more grand plan. So it still stands that Sephiroth cannot lose his mind.




Sephiroth only excaped because his will was the most powerful force in the universe.



1. Neither can Sephiroth
2. Teleportation is instantaneous, it is not possible to be faster than it.



Zack only survived because Sephiroth was preoccupied with freeing his mother, once he was down there was no reason to go after him. I suppose you're right though. It would be closer than an instant kill for Sephiroth, but I still say Seph holds the advantage. If we take away their ability to come back after death I say Sephiroth wins.

first you say seph went all out, now you say he was preoccupied..
make up you mind
kain can teleport as well, so your speed argument is moot..
you underestimate kains duability..he loses his heart, only to go after the elder god and get whacked by tentacles that push through rock like it was air
if we did take away the immortality issue, i'd say the fight stays even..they are both equally fast, capable of teleportation and TK..both have insane magical powers and are in some way amped by their swords...

Sephiroth ftw, lulz. 13

He was hitting with full force, but he didn't kill Zack because after the threat he posed was neutralized he wanted to go right back to mother. Now do you understand it?




Sephitroth in his weakest form had his spine severed and most of his internal organs choped up and was still walking around. AC Sephiroth is exponentially better in every way, so I think its safe to say Sephiroth wins the durability award.



They are both powerful, but Sephiroth definitely has the edge. He is more powerful and more durable, so the odds are in his favor.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
He was hitting with full force, but he didn't kill Zack because after the threat he posed was neutralized he wanted to go right back to mother. Now do you understand it? yep

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Sephitroth in his weakest form had his spine severed and most of his internal organs choped up and was still walking around. AC Sephiroth is exponentially better in every way, so I think its safe to say Sephiroth wins the durability award. i call that healing just like cloud healed instantly when he got shot in the head and stabbed in the shoulder
kain can do the same by drinking blood
also, i cant see how AC seph is much better, seeing as all he acomplaished that was any different was TK topple a building and summon that "dark lifestream" thing...neither of these prove he was any more durable..

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
They are both powerful, but Sephiroth definitely has the edge. He is more powerful and more durable, so the odds are in his favor.
if kain kills seph, he has to wait a minimum of 2 years for seph to continue the battle (not that thats a problem for him, being millenia old and all), but if seph kills kain first, and kain comes back instantly...
my point is (yes i actually have a point....for once) that this is a stalemate, both are immortal in their own sense..

In AC his body is made of just Jenova cells and negative mako. Pure Jenova cells are far more durable than Sephiroth's human body.



I said it was a stalemate in my first post, but for the sake of argument we're talking away their immortality. I'm of the opinion that Sephiroth could kill Kain before Kain killed him, and because they don't have their immortality that makes him the winner.

i reckon it depends on who casts what first..if kain TK shackles/timestops seph then theres nothing stopping kain from going all out on him...and seph could do the same back
arent we also completely forgetting raziel, who is kain's equal in terms of fighting, and cloud, who is without doubt a formidable fighter..both could turn the fight either way..

It does seem we've neglected the other combatants, though Cloud is screwed if Kain and Raziel especially have their immortality.

if immortality is allowed then team B will be pwned continuously..
1 lok character seph could handle
2?? hell no

He might be able to handle 2, if he gets the jump on them he could take out Kain first, and then proceed to deal with Raziel, who wouldn't be as hard of an opponent.

raz and kain are pretty much equals, if both have their fully charged weapons
and if cloud was taken down, both characters would be replenished by soul/blood stealing, leaving seph to fight kain and raz, both fully recharged..
again, your assuming that kain will be taken down by a single cut, and that kain is too slow to retaliate..if anything, seph has a bigger changed of being jumped..

I think Sephiroth still has a decent chance of taking them both down, if anything CLoud would be a good distraction to fight, and even if he did die he's have held their attention long enough to kill at least one of them.

then its back to the same "whoever attacks first wins" kinda fighting
and if we go back to 2 vs seph, then seph loses..they both have ways of simply stopping seph in his tracks, leaving him completely open, not to mention once clouds dead, both will have enough charge to use their full reaver attacks on seph..
last of all, what could seph do against kain's mist form??

There's still the problem of Sephiroth resisting their stop attacks though, and if Sephiroth can use materia, then he could stop them just as easily. This fight has too many factors to have any kind of clear result.

how can he stop them if he is frozen in time??

madmels got some good points also Sephiroth doesnt win durabilitywise...kain gets his heart torn out.. (completly diffrent from having them chopped, actually torn out) then he gets launched through a dimensional rift...he heals his chest nearly instantanously, it seems as soon as he gets up his chest is sealed up, he doesnt regrow his heart but he doesnt even feel very queesy, barely troubled at all apart from amazed hes still alive.

Also his will you keep saying about has not been proven, just because he doesnt get taken by this goddess thing doesnt mean just because he wills it, it happens against every opponent. As i said before, mindspark will effect him, mind spark doesnt attack the mind, it actually sends a current that shuts off the brain itself, physically and knocks it offline. It doesnt matter how strong his will is, if he doesnt know somethings happening he cannot stop it, and then his brain will be dead.

kain has too many ways to win, all he has to do is power the Dimension or time reavers and hes won...time reaver will stop time, first Sephiroth would not know its happening anyway so he couldnt will anything...hed be frozen..then its kains turn to play OR activating dimension reaver he would faster than anything Cloud and Sephiroth can muster warp time and space to slash both Cloud and Sephi into pieces with dimenstional warp attacks, turning them into flesh slices..kain wins.

OR he can win through submission using TK to shackle them, then their his toys.

and thats forgetting Raziel who can open his own can of whoop@ss, he uses light, dark attacks along with tonnes of elemental ones.

After everything I saw Sephiroth do, I doubt attacking his soul will kill/stop him. But there is nothing he can do against time-freeze.

Victory for team 1.

Now I know mind spark would have no effect on him. AC Sephiroth doesn't have a brain or organs, he is negative spirit energy and Jenova matter, so there would be nothing for mind spark to have an affect on.

well he would have to mind rape him then using the mind emblem if he wanted to use his mind, but it doesnt matter, he would use spirit death, soul attacking attacks

if he doesnt have blood and organs and what sounds to me like a physical form, how did Cloud own him with his Omnislash?

And FYI, Kain actually can go intangible. No one brought that up on this page it seems. Maybe last page but I'm not bothering as I have crap to do.

Omnislash is an insanely powerful attack boosted by massive amounts of spirit energy hitting multiple times from multiple angles. It destroyed the bit of Jenova Sephiroth used to come back, leaving only the negative mako, Kadaj's body.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Omnislash is an insanely powerful attack boosted by massive amounts of spirit energy hitting multiple times from multiple angles. It destroyed the bit of Jenova Sephiroth used to come back, leaving only the negative mako, Kadaj's body.

spirit energy, kains and the reavers specialty, Kain solos this with ease if thats the case, Sephiroth gets owned bad

So now Seph apparently can't die? How lovley. It's also bullshit. Team 2 loses miserably.

You fail to factor in Sephiroth's will, which prevent anything from harming his spirit.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
You fail to factor in Sephiroth's will, which prevent anything from harming his spirit.

except Clouds Omnislash/? right right right....i think your making this up and will ignore his will until you can prove it...everyone knows (most except ofcoure maybe you) on this forum what the reaver can do, but this Will nonsense about Sephiroth has not been brought up before..so prove it

His will prevented him from merging with the lifestream, he wouldresist the reaver. CLoud's Omnislash did 0 damage to his spirit, it only destoyed the Jenova matter. Sephiroth would just kill Kain and Raziel while Cloud distracted them. Sephiroth's spirit is an unbeatable existence.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
His will prevented him from merging with the lifestream, he wouldresist the reaver. CLoud's Omnislash did 0 damage to his spirit, it only destoyed the Jenova matter. Sephiroth would just kill Kain and Raziel while Cloud distracted them. Sephiroth's spirit is an unbeatable existence. Too bad Kain and Raziel can't die. Kain stops time, and he cuts Seph's head off. Cloud then is bantha fodder for them.

AC Sephiroth doesn't have a head to cut off. Besides, even if we're keeping eveyone's invincibility on, either Cloud or Seph could just use a time materia to Stop Kain and Raziel, then just leave them there.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
His will prevented him from merging with the lifestream, he wouldresist the reaver. CLoud's Omnislash did 0 damage to his spirit, it only destoyed the Jenova matter. Sephiroth would just kill Kain and Raziel while Cloud distracted them. Sephiroth's spirit is an unbeatable existence.

lmao uber fanboy ftw

let me guess, it owns Galactus with a stare while holding LT in a headlock and pre-ret beyonder in his toes...right

Kain stops time and stores helpless Sephiroth in the blade, he wont even flinch before kain exacts the move....or he could just BFR sephiroth for giggles, send him to another dimension then Sephiroth loses.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
AC Sephiroth doesn't have a head to cut off. Besides, even if we're keeping eveyone's invincibility on, either Cloud or Seph could just use a time materia to Stop Kain and Raziel, then just leave them there. Kain can do it faster than them. Even without invincibility, they are still far beyond Cloud and Seph.

Once again. Sephiroth resisted the will of the godess and all of the planet's spirit energy. The soulreaver couldn't take his soul. Sephiroth and Cloud cast silence, stop and frog, leaving Raziel and Kain helpless and unable to do anything.



You must be joking. Without their invulnerability they aren't much of a threat to Sephiroth, the time stop thing is the only thing in their favor, and with materia Seph could do it too.

Why do you hate Sephiroth so much V2D, were your parents at Nibelheim when it was razed?

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Once again. Sephiroth resisted the will of the godess and all of the planet's spirit energy. The soulreaver couldn't take his soul. Sephiroth and Cloud cast silence, stop and frog, leaving Raziel and Kain helpless and unable to do anything.



You must be joking. Without their invulnerability they aren't much of a threat to Sephiroth, the time stop thing is the only thing in their favor, and with materia Seph could do it too.

Why do you hate Sephiroth so much V2D, were your parents at Nibelheim when it was razed?

show me Seph stopping time at the speed of thought, infact show me Seph doing any major spells fast

the Goddess does not=kain, what are the Goddess' feats with soul devouring then? time stopping, mind warping?

Seph's magic happens as soon as he wills it to. He can cast stop at the speed of thought, trapping Kain first.




You're right, the godess > Kain. She keeps the very planet alive and oversees all of the spirit energy. Kains devouring a few souls of Nosgoth is nothing compared to her spirit energy powers.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Once again. Sephiroth resisted the will of the godess and all of the planet's spirit energy. The soulreaver couldn't take his soul. Sephiroth and Cloud cast silence, stop and frog, leaving Raziel and Kain helpless and unable to do anything.



You must be joking. Without their invulnerability they aren't much of a threat to Sephiroth, the time stop thing is the only thing in their favor, and with materia Seph could do it too.

Why do you hate Sephiroth so much V2D, were your parents at Nibelheim when it was razed? 1. He could still have his head cut off.

2. Time stop, decapitation. Seph=Dead.

3. I don't hate him, I like him as a character, I just dislike fanboyish overstatements like the ones you make.

Sephiroth have great magic power, but it will not help him. In AC, Kadaj shooted magic against Cloud, and he easily dodged it.
If Cloud can do that, I believe Kain and Raziel can do the same.

1. Nope, see below

2. He can't be decapitated, notice how Cloud's Omnislashs hits leave no damage when Sephiroth should have been in small pieces. Slashing threough his neck wouldn't make Sephiroth's head fall off. AC Sephiroth can't be decapitated, as proven in AC.

3.No, you really seem to have a thing against him. I've never seen you support him, even in fights he obviously wins you support his opponent.

1. the only time ive seen seph do any fast magic is when he summon the dark lifestream thing...apart from that, his magic is too slow to compare with kains or raz's
2. doesnt mean kain cant hurt him...if cloud could beat sephiroth with just a few fast slashes, than this is even more in kains favor than i thought
3. such as??

1. His spells are all instantly cast. There is no wait time for them.

2. CLoud didn't beat him with just a few slashes, he beat him with one of the most powerful attacks on the planet that wasn't just Clopudd's strength, it was augmented with plenty of spirit energy.

3. Link versus Sephiroth he said Sephiroth wouldn't stand a chance...

1. show me where??
2. spirit energy? it was a bloody limit break
3. ok fair enough..

1. Where whenever Sephiroth casts a spell it doesn't have to charge up, it just hits you.

2. Its spirit energy, thats why he glows blue. Its in the AC script.

3. See, he just doesn't like Sephy

SEPHIROTH WINS IN A MASSIVE, MASSIVE, MASSIVE, MASSIVE, MASSIVE, MASSIVE,

















































he loses.

lol @ Seph' sspells being instant.
And Seph's soul being strong will save him from the Soul Reaver? Nothing ever resisted it....

I liked this quote


Raziel resisted eating himself?

team one