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i have made the argument that Thanos cannot make force fields under his own power and uses tech. Someone tried to say that He create a force field when he was fighting one of the heralds. To this I say hogwash. they aren't the same at all. So is a force field different from a shield? And If so, which is superior?

I say a force field is superior to a shield, as Thanos has shown that he needs tech to make them. Force shields provide exact coverage on all sides and surround the person, where as a shield is limited by the scope of the field and can be gone around to the target. Discuss. Force Fields or Shields. which is superior and why.

Seriously guys, why get him wound up like this?

Originally posted by Validus
Seriously guys, why get him wound up like this?

Um just discuss it. Are force shields and shields the same? If so why? if not why? Which is superior. Can thanos make FS on his own?

There both constructs made out of some manner of force

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
There both constructs made out of some manner of force
Yeah. So is a green lantern tonka truck used to slam someone. It's not a force shield neither is it a force field.

forcefields are made of energy...therefore more versatile, but liable to break under stress of the person creating the forcefield

shields are usually made of tangible material (ie vibranium) and are more durable and does not depend on the user's energy level but also are less versatile

hope that clears it up

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Yeah. So is a green lantern tonka truck used to slam someone. It's not a force shield neither is it a force field.

But if I can make a wall of force with my mind why can't I make a field (?) of force with it as well.

GL's demonstrate that quite nicely actually.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But if I can make a wall of force with my mind why can't I make a field (?) of force with it as well.

GL's demonstrate that quite nicely actually.

GL's are also more versatile than Thanos. But They make solid constructs that are usually shields and force fields tend to be Round. It's the premise of Force fields. They surround and are tuffer to break or get thru or around. Show me Thanos making a force field under his own power. Him creating a shield is not the same thing.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
GL's are also more versatile than Thanos. But They make solid constructs that are usually shields and force fields tend to be Round. It's the premise of Force fields. They surround and are tuffer to break or get thru or around. Show me Thanos making a force field under his own power. Him creating a shield is not the same thing.

When did this become about Thanos?

The only difference between a field and a shield is the shape.

A shield can surround the body. Green Lantern's forcefield is often called an auto shield.

Originally posted by Validus
A shield can surround the body. Green Lantern's forcefield is often called an auto shield.

Omg no wai. PIS!

But semantics make things more powerful!

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
But semantics make things more powerful!

That depends on your definition of semantics.

Originally posted by Validus
A shield can surround the body. Green Lantern's forcefield is often called an auto shield.

It's still a force shield. Hence auto Shield.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That depends on your definition of semantics. I see what you did there... I think.

Invisible Woman > SHIELD. I think that's conclusive evidence.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
It's still a force shield. Hence auto Shield.

But it isn't shaped like one. That makes it a field.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
When did this become about Thanos?

The only difference between a field and a shield is the shape.

Not True. Sue richards has held her force fields/shields under greater pressure and far longer than when her regular shields just get smashed thru. Happens to lanters as well. Thier force shields/fields, are superior to thier shields.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But it isn't shaped like one. That makes it a field.

It surrounds them correct?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Not True. Sue richards has held her force fields/shields under greater pressure and far longer than when her regular shields just get smashed thru. Happens to lanters as well. Thier force shields/fields, are superior to thier shields.

What the **** are you talking about?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
It's still a force shield. Hence auto Shield.
It's also a shield. You just said it yourself.

But nuts to this. I'm not about to sit about debate about the (non-existant) difference between a shield and force field. Even I draw the line somewhere.

Originally posted by Validus
It's also a shield. You just said it yourself.

the important part is the force. You know as in surround. I've never seen thanos generate a force anything around himself that was anywhere near what he does when he uses tech. That the point of this.

The "force" part is supposed to mean it surrounds...

That's the crappest attempt at trying to manipulate semantics ever.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
the important part is the force. You know as in surround.

You OK man?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The "force" part is supposed to mean it surrounds...

That's the crappest attempt at trying to manipulate semantics ever.

Show me a time it's mentioned that it didn't surround. You realize a shield has been around for ages. Usually depicted like Captain america's or even us agents energy shield. Not a force anything. The semantics of it boild down to someone trying to say that Thanos putting up a shield somehow gives him the ability to generate force fields/shields. Which is just preposterous. They aren't the same thing and he hasn't shown that abbility either.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Show me a time it's mentioned that it didn't surround. You realize a shield has been around for ages. Usually depicted like Captain america's or even us agents energy shield. Not a force anything. The semantics of it boild down to someone trying to say that Thanos putting up a shield somehow gives him the ability to generate force fields/shields. Which is just preposterous. They aren't the same thing and he hasn't shown that abbility either.

You seriously think the word "force" means "to surround"?

At this point I don't I nor anyone else have any idea what you're raving about.

5.1 Dolby Digital Force sound?

Come out with your hands up we've got you forced?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Show me a time it's mentioned that it didn't surround. You realize a shield has been around for ages. Usually depicted like Captain america's or even us agents energy shield. Not a force anything. The semantics of it boild down to someone trying to say that Thanos putting up a shield somehow gives him the ability to generate force fields/shields. Which is just preposterous. They aren't the same thing and he hasn't shown that abbility either.
If Thanos creates a shield of force... Then he's creating a force shield. The shield covers a field of matter... Hence the term "Force Field".

This has a chance of replacing Thing Vs Crippled Supes as my favorite thread.

My apartment has panoramic views of the waterfront that forces it.

The woman told the court he surrounded himself onto her.

The mother was surrounded to choose which one of her children would live... or die.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
My apartment has panoramic views of the waterfront that forces it.

The woman told the court he surrounded himself onto her.

The mother was surrounded to choose which one of her children would live... or die.

More to the point:

He knocked the attacker away with a a blast of pure surround.

Any one have any proof what so ever that Thanos can replicate his Force shields that he uses tech for with his own power. Him create a construct/shield to stop a herald is not the same. period. Now talk trash all you like, I'm waiting to hear or see of a time he's done it.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
More to the point:

He knocked the attacker away with a a blast of pure surround. Well he was forced so he had to use lethal amount of surround, to clear a path.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Well he was forced so he had to use lethal surround, to clear a path.

My god. Don't tell me Luke used his surround power to kill someone!

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
My god. Don't tell me Luke used his surround power to kill someone! Yes, he used the Surround, in ways he was never meant to... he's gone to the Dark Side, he has.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
My god. Don't tell me Luke used his surround power to kill someone!

FUUUUNNEE. Still doesn't change the fact that someone mentioned something that has NEVER been shown to be a power of Thanos's. So I had to think of way of expressing this and also denoting that Force shields/fields, tend to be and are superior to just shields.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
It's still a force shield. Hence auto Shield.
I remember one time GL Hal's auto shield withstood a nuke, then the next issue, got broke by a shark.

Ha ha ha.

Originally posted by long pig
I remember one time GL Hal's auto shield withstood a nuke, then the next issue, got broke by a shark.

Ha ha ha.

You know sharks in the DCU are cosmic right?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
You know sharks in the DCU are cosmic right?
Only with prep.

Originally posted by Blair Wind

What a weird thread. When Thanos creates a shield/field hes just manipulating cosmic energy, just like when he fires a blast from his hands, or eyes. He could create a flat plane or sphere if he wished.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Ixion83/CelestialQuest6I.jpg
http://img143.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=4c944_forg3.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Thanos/thanosvsmakerf22.jpg

Another one, no shields up command or hints of tech

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m212/Weaver_in_Darkness/Annihilation/Annihilation4-025.jpg

And its been stated by the editor that only Drax has the power to rip through his fields before thats used against him.

Scanblitz.

Wait, so has Wally answered the thread?

Originally posted by StyleTime
Scanblitz.

Wait, so has Wally answered the thread?
Statements from Editors with no on panel evidence is not an answer. I dont' know if the shield was tech or prep or what. Thanos seemed to be prepped the entire arc, having everything already figured out. I dont' have all of the issues as they sold out before I could get to them, but once I do my research, i'll give an answer as to whether wally answered me or not.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
What the **** are you talking about?

my thoughts exactly

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
the important part is the force. You know as in surround. I've never seen thanos generate a force anything around himself that was anywhere near what he does when he uses tech. That the point of this.

Yes in Thanos # 6 i think... He stops a blast from Galactus with a surrounding force field. Even Galactus mentions something about being impressed by it.

Originally posted by nimbus006
Yes in Thanos # 6 i think... He stops a blast from Galactus with a surrounding force field. Even Galactus mentions something about being impressed by it.
No. THat force field was most def tech. Thanos was prepped for that.

I say it depends on the situation. Shields put less stress on the body. But Force Fields require effort and concentration to keep them up.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Um just discuss it. Are force shields and shields the same? If so why? if not why? Which is superior. Can thanos make FS on his own?
Well, a Force-Field is intriniscally a sheild, but if you meant for a definition in the context comics I suppose it's simply a variation of one.

By your logic, Nvr, when Invisible Woman uses her power to create a blade of energy, or somesuch (she's done it before), her power is no longer to make force fields?

She wasn't using tech to do it though.

How do you know when he is using tech or not? The shield is made by him with no machines or anything around him. He does wield PC, why wouldnt that shield be made of cosmic energy?

The one against Galactus is definately tech because he issues a voice command just before it goes up, "Activate all defensive shielding", like he does with the shield against Champion. Thats how you can tell when he is using a tech shield, he says it, other times he generates it himself like against Fallen One.

Originally posted by StyleTime
She wasn't using tech to do it though. I was just reffering back to the surround thing.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
I was just reffering back to the surround thing.
So was I. I guess my humor failed.

Originally posted by StyleTime
So was I. I guess my humor failed. Oh, I haven't read whatevers been posted lately... did Nvr say forcefields have to be tech?

You and your subtleties.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Oh, I haven't read whatevers been posted lately... did Nvr say forcefields have to be tech?
Only Thanos' force fields have to be tech, apparantly. Thanos can generate a 'shield', not not a 'field' it seems.

Originally posted by StyleTime
She wasn't using tech to do it though. Someone should alert Marvel then that they've been lying about Invisible Woman's powers...

It muzt B tru, cuz Nvr lyke, sed so!!!1!!1!one!

Originally posted by Wally West
The one against Galactus is definately tech because he issues a voice command just before it goes up, "Activate all defensive shielding", like he does with the shield against Champion. Thats how you can tell when he is using a tech shield, he says it, other times he generates it himself like against Fallen One.

Oh i see thanx for clarifying

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
By your logic, Nvr, when Invisible Woman uses her power to create a blade of energy, or somesuch (she's done it before), her power is no longer to make force fields? No you've got it all wrong, Spunky, her power was never to generate force fields... she generates deadly surround.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
No you've got it all wrong, Spunky, her power was never to generate force fields... she generates deadly surround.

Actually PART of her power set is to generate force fields. But she also generates force and lasers and such. She is basically an energy manip as she manips her own energy. Nice try tho.

She manipulates hyperspace energy/force. All of her constructs from her battering rams to her bubbles are composed of it, not of "surround." I'm only giving your bizarre semantics game the amount of seriousness it deserves.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
She manipulates hyperspace energy/force. All of her constructs from her battering rams to her bubbles are composed of it, not of "surround." I'm only giving your bizarre semantics game the amount of seriousness it deserves.

It's not a semmantics Game. People are actually trying to say that Thanos creating a shield somehow connects to his force fields generated by mech. Id' wager his shields are far inferior or he'd used his own personal ones instead of tech.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
It's not a semmantics Game. People are actually trying to say that Thanos creating a shield somehow connects to his force fields generated by mech. Id' wager his shields are far inferior or he'd used his own personal ones instead of tech. Honestly, I think you need to stop. No matter how you argue, this is a semantics game. Force fields and force shields are the same thing. Different name for the same thing. Either can be a sphere or skin tight. Either can be generated via tech or super-powered means. Thanos happens to have used both. His latest appearances in Thanos Quest and Annihilation show no signs of technology in the creation of his fields and his powerset easily allows for the creation of barriers (energy or otherwise). What is so hard about that?

Who fed Nvr sugar?

Now it'll be hell getting him to sleep.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Someone should alert Marvel then that they've been lying about Invisible Woman's powers...

It muzt B tru, cuz Nvr lyke, sed so!!!1!!1!one!
They're tricking us. They actually drop little hints that she uses tech all the time. Only through sheer surround of will can one see the clues.

HohohohooO!!! I did it!
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
It's not a semmantics Game. People are actually trying to say that Thanos creating a shield somehow connects to his force fields generated by mech. Id' wager his shields are far inferior or he'd used his own personal ones instead of tech.
Are you trying to say that his own personal shields wouldn't be as strong without his tech?

Originally posted by StyleTime
They're tricking us. They actually drop little hints that she uses tech all the time. Only through sheer surround of will can one see the clues.

HohohohooO!!! I did it!

Are you trying to say that his own personal shields wouldn't be as strong without his tech?

Yes I am saying his own shields won't be as strong without tech. As seen. He's could never withstand the power of the PG without his shield or make galactus strain.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
No you've got it all wrong, Spunky, her power was never to generate force fields... she generates deadly surround. Digi's birthday was today. He got drunk, went out on the town, and surrounded himself onto hookers. ermmhappy

Originally posted by Blight
PACKAGE FOR SMURPH:
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/The_Olympian/Profile%20Cards/SpunkySmurphCard.jpg

This is one of the pettiest threads I've ever seen. A force field is a shield.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
This is one of the pettiest threads I've ever seen. A force field is a shield.
But Shield is NOT a force field.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That depends on your definition of semantics. Usage of certain words and their definitions.

The fact that nvr uses feild and sheild interchangabley in the first few posts shows that this whole argument is nothing but a semantics argument.

And believe me. Semantics be something I is good at bickerin' 'bout.

Thanos' tech fields are almost certainly more powerful than the ones he can create himself, and using tech to create a field would require less effort on his part and put less strain on him. But he can create a field without tech, under his own power, all his powers stem from manipulating cosmic energy and he can create fields that way as he has shown.

Funny thing about saying a field is a sphere and a shield is a flat plane, when Thanos put that tech 'field' around himself in the Galactus fight he called it 'shielding'!

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
But Shield is NOT a force field.
A shield can be a force field. A shield is many things.

You missed the part where he tried to equate the word "force" to mean "surround." Hilarity ensued.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You missed the part where he tried to equate the word "force" to mean "surround." Hilarity ensued. Aww, man...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You missed the part where he tried to equate the word "force" to mean "surround." Hilarity ensued.

actually Force field is the surround part. force as in to exert and field as in area. Force field, area of exertion.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Yes I am saying his own shields won't be as strong without tech. As seen. He's could never withstand the power of the PG without his shield or make galactus strain.
Well, everyone agrees with you there I believe. We can move past that point then.

Is the shield vs field the other thing you were talking about?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
What the **** are you talking about?
Lanterns total encompassing force fields tend to be stronger than a construct shield. I.E. Kyle's universe saving force shield. THe main point of this thread is that someone tried to elude that Thanos could create a force shield as strong as the one's he had with his tech by just saying that he created a shield against the Fallen one. I think that has disproven.

Shield.

You think Captain America would be seen running around with a force-field, son?

No, that's for a reason.

Originally posted by CasanoVa
Shield.

You think Captain America would be seen running around with a force-field, son?

No, that's for a reason. We are talking about ENERGY fields vs Energy Shields in the context of Thanos. Caps shield is very unique. I doubt it would be able to stand up to the pressure that Thanos's Force shield stood up to against galactus.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
We are talking about ENERGY fields vs Energy Shields in the context of Thanos. Caps shield is very unique. I doubt it would be able to stand up to the pressure that Thanos's Force shield stood up to against galactus.

Oh right, we're talking about the inferior type? I get it now.

I do not think there is any difference between the two, the terms are pretty interchangeable in the context us comic geek use them.

But yeah, Thanos' shield>Cap's shield? Oh ye of little faith.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
THe main point of this thread is that someone tried to elude that Thanos could create a force shield as strong as the one's he had with his tech by just saying that he created a shield against the Fallen one. I think that has disproven.
Who tried to elude to that? I was the one who made the reference to the Fallen One fight which you seemed to take issue with, and I NEVER said anything about Thanos being able to create shields as strong as his tech ones. You claimed he couldn't generate a force field without tech, and I pointed to the Fallen One fight as an example that he could, thats all.

Thanos has been referenced several times as having 3 separate force fields at his disposal.

The tech forcefield is shown in this instance:
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/66/energy8qa2.jpg

Notice how it is clearly separate from his body and sits out in front of him. Notice also how he moves his fingers in order to bring it up. This is his tech forcefield. It causes very little to no strain to use, and doesn't seem to tap into his personal power reserves much. His personal tech power also fuels his flight and teleportation abilities.

In instances where he teleports someone you will typically see him perform finger movements, this is linked into his personal technological arsenal.

For instance:
http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/4387/energy141bz3.jpg
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/9791/energy142sq1.jpg

Here Thanos uses a huge forcefield, most likely tech:
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/5219/energy25iz7.jpg

Here we see Thanos with prep having his forcefield survive Galactus' blast:
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/6706/energy31uw6.jpg

The above instances are all clearly tech forcefields.

Here is another instance, when he blocks Thor wielding the power gem:
http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bbt38nq.jpg

It's clearly in the shape of a huge shield, unlike the surrounded field that he used previously, and indeed seems different than the skin-tight forcefield.

Now let's look at his personal skin-tight forcefields:
Here he takes a surprise blast from Silver Surfer. Notice it's the same tech setup as when he blocks the blast in the above picture, only this time he didn't anticipate. Notice the blast does nothing but make his armor smoke slightly, he isn't damaged in the least. This appears to be his "always-on" skintight forcefield. As this forcefield is invisible, it most likely is also tech related:
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/9489/durability2nm6.jpg

Now lastly, lets look again at the fight with Drax, note that the forcefield is purple, unlike the invisible forcefields that he had before. This is the field Drax ripped through, since Drax had the counter life force to Thanos. Had Thanos known, he most likely would have erected a tech forcefield as well to protect against Drax, as it wouldn't have had the vulnerability to Drax that his own cosmic energy field had.

It would seem that he only rarely chooses to erect his personal cosmic forcefield, which is typically drawn as having a color to it, and usually only does it briefly as it uses his own power.

So basically he has 3 tech fields (a shield looking one, a dome type forcefield, and a skintight always-on forcefield similar to a green lantern's protection aura) and a 4th shield which he can put up that's created from his own power cosmic.

Originally posted by Kutulu
Thanos has been referenced several times as having 3 separate force fields at his disposal.

The tech forcefield is shown in this instance:
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/66/energy8qa2.jpg

Notice how it is clearly separate from his body and sits out in front of him. Notice also how he moves his fingers in order to bring it up. This is his tech forcefield. It causes very little to no strain to use, and doesn't seem to tap into his personal power reserves much. His personal tech power also fuels his flight and teleportation abilities.

In instances where he teleports someone you will typically see him perform finger movements, this is linked into his personal technological arsenal.

For instance:
http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/4387/energy141bz3.jpg
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/9791/energy142sq1.jpg

Here Thanos uses a huge forcefield, most likely tech:
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/5219/energy25iz7.jpg

Here we see Thanos with prep having his forcefield survive Galactus' blast:
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/6706/energy31uw6.jpg

The above instances are all clearly tech forcefields.

Here is another instance, when he blocks Thor wielding the power gem:
http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bbt38nq.jpg

It's clearly in the shape of a huge shield, unlike the surrounded field that he used previously, and indeed seems different than the skin-tight forcefield.

Now let's look at his personal skin-tight forcefields:
Here he takes a surprise blast from Silver Surfer. Notice it's the same tech setup as when he blocks the blast in the above picture, only this time he didn't anticipate. Notice the blast does nothing but make his armor smoke slightly, he isn't damaged in the least. This appears to be his "always-on" skintight forcefield. As this forcefield is invisible, it most likely is also tech related:
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/9489/durability2nm6.jpg

Now lastly, lets look again at the fight with Drax, note that the forcefield is purple, unlike the invisible forcefields that he had before. This is the field Drax ripped through, since Drax had the counter life force to Thanos. Had Thanos known, he most likely would have erected a tech forcefield as well to protect against Drax, as it wouldn't have had the vulnerability to Drax that his own cosmic energy field had.

It would seem that he only rarely chooses to erect his personal cosmic forcefield, which is typically drawn as having a color to it, and usually only does it briefly as it uses his own power.

So basically he has 3 tech fields (a shield looking one, a dome type forcefield, and a skintight always-on forcefield similar to a green lantern's protection aura) and a 4th shield which he can put up that's created from his own power cosmic.
Excellent summation.

I like shields but then my fav. power is T.K.
Forcefields are powerful up into a certin level but i think T.k. has unlimited potential.

Originally posted by Kutulu
Thanos has been referenced several times as having 3 separate force fields at his disposal.

The tech forcefield is shown in this instance:

Notice how it is clearly separate from his body and sits out in front of him. Notice also how he moves his fingers in order to bring it up. This is his tech forcefield. It causes very little to no strain to use, and doesn't seem to tap into his personal power reserves much. His personal tech power also fuels his flight and teleportation abilities.

In instances where he teleports someone you will typically see him perform finger movements, this is linked into his personal technological arsenal.

For instance:

Here Thanos uses a huge forcefield, most likely tech:

Here we see Thanos with prep having his forcefield survive Galactus' blast:

The above instances are all clearly tech forcefields.

Here is another instance, when he blocks Thor wielding the power gem:

It's clearly in the shape of a huge shield, unlike the surrounded field that he used previously, and indeed seems different than the skin-tight forcefield.

Now let's look at his personal skin-tight forcefields:
Here he takes a surprise blast from Silver Surfer. Notice it's the same tech setup as when he blocks the blast in the above picture, only this time he didn't anticipate. Notice the blast does nothing but make his armor smoke slightly, he isn't damaged in the least. This appears to be his "always-on" skintight forcefield. As this forcefield is invisible, it most likely is also tech related:

Now lastly, lets look again at the fight with Drax, note that the forcefield is purple, unlike the invisible forcefields that he had before. This is the field Drax ripped through, since Drax had the counter life force to Thanos. Had Thanos known, he most likely would have erected a tech forcefield as well to protect against Drax, as it wouldn't have had the vulnerability to Drax that his own cosmic energy field had.

It would seem that he only rarely chooses to erect his personal cosmic forcefield, which is typically drawn as having a color to it, and usually only does it briefly as it uses his own power.

So basically he has 3 tech fields (a shield looking one, a dome type forcefield, and a skintight always-on forcefield similar to a green lantern's protection aura) and a 4th shield which he can put up that's created from his own power cosmic. I'm not going to go through this (although some of it is wrong), but what about when Thanos survived Omega's assault due to his three personal force fields?