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We don't have to discuss...this is just a thread to let out our frustrations about what went wrong in AWE...

There are so many it's hard to know where to begin.

1) In DMC we learn that Cutler Beckett wants Jack's Compass so it can lead him to the chest that will give the heart of Davy so he can control Davy and thus control the sea....so he gets Will to go off to do his dirty work...he tells Will that he and Jack have left their marks on each other. We know that the mark Beckett left on Jack was the "P" pirate brand....but in AWE we never find out Why? and Where? and When? it happened..and we never found out what mark Jack left on Beckett.

2) In DMC we learn that Davy carved his heart out because the love of his life "a woman as harsh and changing and as untameable as the sea" did not honor his love in return and the pain of living with such sorrow was more than he could bear, so he carved his heart out and locked it away in a chest and began unleashing havoc on lost souls lost at sea...


But in AWE.....when Will stabs the heart, thanks to Jack, Bootstrap carves Will's heart out and puts it in a chest...but why? It doesn't make sense...it just doesn't....


some of these are not plotholes, so much, as they were things that just didn't jive....

Why did Gov. Swann have to be murdered...and it's just weird how he shows up in the after world......

What happened to Norrington. His part in AWE was just wasted. I hated the fact that he was murdered by Bootstrap...to what point and purpose????

Why is Jack's compass still not working in Davy's locker....because after DMC we know the reason was because of Elizabeth...but in AWE that doesnt seem to be the case anymore.....or so it would seem, until the very end.

Gosh, I know I may just be rambling. What else. I am just so frustrated with the way this movie turned out, I can hardly stand it...and it's not just that it didn't end j/e....there's many more issues than that...

When I first saw the leaked script last fall I was confident that it couldn't be right because it was so poorly done...and the sad thing about it....it was pretty much right on....sadly enough....

okay..the biggest plot hole of all....the curse and the carving out of the heart....

When Elizabeth talks to Bootstrap in the brig of the Dutchman he tells her that if Will stabs the heart than he is bound to be the Captain forever....and they can never be together......because the Dutchman must have a Captain and a heart....

and then when Will and Jack are discussing their plans Jack tells Will he is willing to stab the heart and Will tells him he must do the job of the Dutchman's captain or he get all tenacally like Jones......he must fairy lost souls into the after world......and he says "you're willing to stab your heart out..."

so sorry if i didn't bother to read all that, will get to it eventually, i'm just tired right now that's all.

the most frustrating thing for me in there(including the plotholes and the poorly-written script that even though it's frustrating i still like it), is the oh-so ANTI-CLIMATIC Tia/Calypso scene.

oh, and the lack of Norrington and Governor Swann! they're characters we've got to know already! why put too little of them in AWE? I'd rather have Sao Feng gone(sort of...)...

I know what both of you mean.I wouldn't call the script 'poor' exactly but they made so many background stories in DMC and failed to cover all of them in AWE because instead of dedicating AWE to tying everything up (which I admit would be dull) they made MORE background stories...some were neccessary some weren't...


I have to say Tigers that I actually have an opinion on the whole carving Will's heart out thing. That was Davy's fault...after Calypso wasn't there when he came back he neglected his duty, carved his heart out and placed a new crurse on the FD. IMO he has to carve his heart out to be the captain.

Contarary to many people's beliefs and the discussions going on in wordplayer I don't think th ecurse will be broken after 10 years...at least not if we want to judge this fact ONLY and ONLY by the info in the movie (pretend we don't know about the opera and the real story of the dutchman)

At one point Bootsrap says: Where we are bound she cannot come, ten years at sea, one day ashore...
Something along those lines. If the curse were to be broken after ten years he woul dcomfort his son by saying "after ten years...you'll be free to stay with her."

They should have made it clear!! I don't really understand...

Governer's Swann's death was neccessary but could have been better done. Kill someone just cause they've started asking questions? PUH-leez!

Killing Norrington was neccassary too. And I admit that it was very well done...very touching but he should have had more time in AWE...to show how he'd developed from DMC and turned back to his old life only to find that maybe...piracy itself can be the right course.

Yes the compass is baffling me. It doesn't work in th elocker but by the end it's magically fixed.


Yes I have SOME anger. I just wanna know...about some of these things. I wanna know so many things. I'm a CURIOS person.

I've accepted that JE couldn't be. And the little playful goodbye was bitter sweet and all good...but I felt that it could have been better done. We could have had a moment (not a conversation even) just a small moment of truth. To either show everything is ok or show that Jack is over Elizabeth...(not meaning the parachute scene either)

I know..there just wasn't any closure as far as I'm concerned.

Yes...I agree..I remember the line where Bootstrap says that, and the entire movie...except for that brig scene between calypso and davy talk and he makes it sound like they could be together after ten years if she were faithful...but actually that conversation may have just meant that for 10 years he did good deeds but then when he returned she had not been true to him and therefore he remained Captain, carved his heart out and cursed the Dutchman, and he became evil and heartless....but it still doesn't explain to me why Will's heart or Jack's heart for that matter would have to be carved out...actually Jack's would...because he wouldn't have a love waiting for him and the one he loved didn't love him back so Jack would have ended up just like Davy....maybe, I guess the whole dutchman curse thingy is confusing to me....

I know what you mean...just no closure! I really do wish they would clear up the curse thing. We can go on guessing but we can't be sure until(and if) T&T tell us in the commentary...in the DVD

we deifintey need to get Chiki on this thread. shes like, beyond p*ssed at AWE

Really?? LOL I don't blame her but....I'm not THAT p*ssed. Not my fave of the trilogy but still AWEsome. Still loved the multiple Jacks...all the different sides of Jack...AWE was dark but FUN too.

I'm not entirely disappointed but it had the potential to be better...just some loos ends.

yeah, notice that she hasnt been on lately

OOOOOH! So that's why. I miss her!! And lovely too..with all her theories of what pirates4 would be like and a whole buncha othe KMC members too.

yeah, ive been talking to Chiki on MSN and she says she is just really bugged by Johnny right now. i asked her why but she sais she doesnt wanna talk about it. shes sick of talking about him. but she thinks KMC is just getting worse because of AWE. and i cant say i disagree. i mean, i could never get tired of talking about him, but everyone is obsessing over AWE a bit..

*Big huge sigh* I can't say I disagree with the last bit...it's not the same anymore...it's sad she feels that way she was our faith keeper you know...but I'm sure after the heat dies down we can all go back to waiting for the DVD and the sequel and everything will be fun again...

I'm feeling curios as to why she's mad at Johnny though....can't be his performance or anything (he was rather good wasn't he? ) and I agree that he could have used his influence to grant us a more satisfying ending...but you can't blame him for being a guy ....Augh! Now I'm being all nosy

mad at johnny?! but how? that doenst make sense..sure i understand the problem with AWE..it was horrible compared to the other two but i mean johnny was good. some of his scenes were a bit over the top..but stilll....

btw i love this thread lol

i think she just might be really sick of girls fawning over Johnny right now. thats like, all thats ever talked about on here is him.

but she was like that for awhile too...
o well...shell come back...

Ah well! I have to agree...seeing as I've been talking about Johnny WAY more than before myself. Guess it's just the only thing in AWE that was still interesting to me.

You know..yeah some bits were over the top but still ULTRA GREAT!! The multiple Jacks were...

Augh! see? I'm doing it again. I'll stop...I promise...

I wish she would some back...I hope she will...eventually

the whole of movie 2 is a big fat plot hole in terms of J/E...lol

still leaves a huge mother f***ing: ? when movie 3 ends and DOESNT answer what the hell was goin on in DMC

I applaud and agree with you lovely(great to see u around again BTW)

I'm not saying they should have had ended it JE...I'm just saying they created this whole thing in DMC that they didn't continue/end in AWE and just left it untouched like last night's leftovers. No closure...whatsoever...


While the ending for WE IMO was interesting and better than having them fall in to eachother's arms and...this made them a bit interesting but could have been better done....the ending for JE could've been better too and the whole FD curse was unclear...

ok i havent read all of this thread so i dont know if someones already put this but im in a hurry so ill say it anyway.
when jack is talking to beckett and he says "you may kill me but you may never insult me, who am i?" and beckett shakes his headas if he doesnt know, HE DOES KNOW who he is because in p2 beckett says
" we've had dealings in the past and we've each left our mark on the other."

I just wanted a happy ending with Will and Elizabeth It was slightly disturbing., oh and Jack stabs the heart not Will and they all live happily ever after in singapore. Why? simply because that was one cool set!

(by happy I mean there is nothing *ahem* gross enough that it is left to the imagination, and it ends when they go ... somewhere ... and you DON'T see anything else!!!!!!)

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
Why did Gov. Swann have to be murdered...and it's just weird how he shows up in the after world......

What happened to Norrington. His part in AWE was just wasted. I hated the fact that he was murdered by Bootstrap...to what point and purpose????

Why is Jack's compass still not working in Davy's locker....because after DMC we know the reason was because of Elizabeth...but in AWE that doesnt seem to be the case anymore.....or so it would seem, until the very end.

try to clear u up..

Swann died bc it made liz hate beckett even more, and distrust norrie on sao feng's ship bc he may have had something to do with the killing. It also show's will's love for liz bc he holds her and asks if they can bring swann back.

norrie was murdered by bootstrap bc it shows that bootstarp is partly insane. i personally never liked norrie...

Jack's compass doesn't work? I never noticed that...

Yeah it spins around in the locker...might be something about the locker.

I agree that Swann had to die but I think the manner in which it was done and also the reasons given....could've been better.

I loved Norri and I think he could've had just a bit more time before being killed off. I agree that his death too was neccassary but I missed the bits with Swann and Norri that were cut...(I know that they had to cut them but still)


I like the ending for WE actually...I'm not evil or anything...not like I want them to wait 10 years but it made them different from other movie couples. It's so romantic that Elizabeth would wait for him for TEN YEARS!!

Like she would only wait for HIM for 10 years and not if it was anyone else...

I think Johnny had something to do with the non-sparrabeth ending, right?

Sparrabeth would have never worked. It was a Will/ Lizzie story from the start, and no offense, but I knew that, and I'm probably the youngest one on this forum... anyhow, I don't even know why I'm on this thread... I loved the whole movie. My friend said it was the best one yet, and although I liked DMC better, this one is 2nd best!!!

I have a theory.

Sort of. It's just something I've noticed.. Alot of people that like Willabeth and think they are cute and stuff are young. Like young young.. Idk but it just seems that way.

And I do think that, yeah, it was Willabeth from the start, but they screwed it up in the middle if they were planning on keeping it Willabeth.

I SMELL FISH! It comes in the form of re-shoots and people involved in the movie that were unhappy with it..

Well the young realize that a wicked old man and Liz wouldn't work, and the old people (no offense) feel bad for the old man. that's my take on it.

lol aw. he not a wicked old man! the whole trilogy was about being a pirate and a good man/woman too and im not old lol

I just wish they would've not dismissed the whole sparrabeth thing. if they had actually acknowledged anything happened it would be better.

Jack's ending kinda sucked. I was upset, then okay with it but now im upset with it again.

I think in the locker Jack was so insane and mad that he had no idea what he wanted so the compass wasn't broken, jack was. hence the line "We shall have a magnificant garden party and your not invited"

i love this thread. i didn't read everything, but I'll just make my own list anyways. you guys are brilliant and i am totally with you.

1. why the hell would Will risk the girl of his dreams and his future to save his skeezy father who abandoned him to go out with his drinking buddies, and then killed Norrington? Sheesh, his time had come, if Will's character had ANY logical continuity, he would never have risked Elizabeth to save his dad. no way, man.

2. Beckett. His whole character. All those twisty allusions they made about "marks" "ruling the sea" "pirate way coming to an end".... they wasted like 2 hours of screen time getting us all revved up to find out what all that meant, and then they totally SKIPPED IT!!!!!

3. What the HELL happened to Calypso????? That was just it for her? Majorly sloppy character arc, peoples. I can't even call it an arc.

4. (I just realized I am repeating my original review of the film... woops). Will and Elizabeth are fighting all throughout the film--- and betraying each other, and throwing their relationship away to save annoying fathers. So why, why, oh WHY in God's name do they suddenly decide to get married? i know they are both very spontaneous people, but it doesnt work with ANY character or plot arc. the scene was well done, but it doesnt fit with the rest of the film. you know in film 1, will and elizabeth have just had that dramatic fight type thingy below decks with the medallion, and then Will comes back up top and gives the heroic schpiel about "we have to fight" and Elizabeth gives him a sort of proud smile--- and that quick, simple moment is CRUCIAL to understanding how they rebuild their relationship and by the end of the film get engaged. There was NO MOMENT like that in film 3, and it totally wrecked the journey there, at least for me.

5. i cant talk about the bad-fan-fic honeymoon scene with them, or the strange lingerie that apparently pops out of the sea for their honeymoon pleasure, because some people on this site are so talented and have written scenes that are miles beyond that, and don't cheesify what ought to be a dramatic, satisfying, and meaningful conclusion to the "star crossed lovers". I think that random lingerie may be the biggest plot-hole in the film, actually.

6. Jack's story. It doesn't complete. in any way. He's in love with Elizabeth to the point of dying in film 2, then suddenly, he doesn't really care. He's found his bravery and his "good man", then he throws it out the window because of 10 minutes in a desert (please, Jack. suck it up.) THERE IS SO, SO MUCH THEY COULD HAVE DONE HERE~!!!!!! Something, ANYTHING to tie up the tension with Elizabeth (and something that isn't a two line gimmick about it never working out, gag me.) Something, ANYTHING to suggest that the infamous Captain Jack Sparrow is still the same strong, mysterious, swoon-worthy rogue we all fell for originally. Something, ANYTHING to suggest that the most clever thing he is able to do onscreen isn't laying an EGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

7. wedding dress sank, fate intervened, but apparently, that was a "Just Kidding!" moment.

8. Davy Jones controlled the ocean THROUGH his kraken. HELLO!!!!! Without the kraken, he was like, a scary guy who could walk through walls, and that's it. the Kraken was his power. (that's what film 2 clearly stated, anyways) YET, in film 3, Beckett's achieved his goal and kills the kraken?????? WTF? Makes no sense--- without the kraken, Jones is just another fish face for Beckett to order around. Certainly not capable of any real damage, and definitely not helping Beckett control the sea.

9. Calypso the sea goddess can be imprisoned in a brig? WILL, ELIZABETH, AND JACK can escape those, for crying out loud. Yet she is just stuck there moping???? Once again, it's laughable.

10. Davy Jones doesn't kill Beckett? Why not? With Beckett dead, he could snatch the heart back and make off. MAKES NO SENSE.

11. WORST ONE FOR ME__________ : The ENTIRE royal navy, and the entire EITC fleet, turn around and leave the pirates alone after ONE SHIP is destroyed. Beckett dies and their 3 thousand ships turn around and go home?????? YEAH RIGHT. In any historical context, there would be 2nds and 3rds in command who would instantly step up and assume control, and they all had the same goal, to wipe out the pirates. They obviously had more than enough man-power to accomplish it. They would have stayed and finished the job, in any logical or historical story.

I have more, but I reckon that rant will last for a while.

Originally posted by potcfan2003
Well the young realize that a wicked old man and Liz wouldn't work, and the old people (no offense) feel bad for the old man. that's my take on it.


dude, i am not old. and will is a pansy.

Originally posted by IheartPocky
I have a theory.

Sort of. It's just something I've noticed.. Alot of people that like Willabeth and think they are cute and stuff are young. Like young young.. Idk but it just seems that way.

And I do think that, yeah, it was Willabeth from the start, but they screwed it up in the middle if they were planning on keeping it Willabeth.

I SMELL FISH! It comes in the form of re-shoots and people involved in the movie that were unhappy with it..

i second that fishy smell floating around. maybe deleted scenes will provide some conclusion for some of these plot holes.

Originally posted by tee_pirategirl
Yeah it spins around in the locker...might be something about the locker.

I agree that Swann had to die but I think the manner in which it was done and also the reasons given....could've been better.

I loved Norri and I think he could've had just a bit more time before being killed off. I agree that his death too was neccassary but I missed the bits with Swann and Norri that were cut...(I know that they had to cut them but still)


I like the ending for WE actually...I'm not evil or anything...not like I want them to wait 10 years but it made them different from other movie couples. It's so romantic that Elizabeth would wait for him for TEN YEARS!!

Like she would only wait for HIM for 10 years and not if it was anyone else...


sorry i know this is like my 4th post in a row, but i'm just supporting the amazing thread Tigers made. (cheers).

Tee pirate, I have to majorly disagree that its romantic to wait 10 years for someone. Elizabeth was so horny in film 2, she was ready to throw herself on Jack for heaven's sake (and probably should have... wink). So ONE TIME is going to slake that lust and allow her to be faithful for 10 years? Um, right.

Originally posted by katelovespirate
i love this thread. i didn't read everything, but I'll just make my own list anyways. you guys are brilliant and i am totally with you.

1. why the hell would Will risk the girl of his dreams and his future to save his skeezy father who abandoned him to go out with his drinking buddies, and then killed Norrington? Sheesh, his time had come, if Will's character had ANY logical continuity, he would never have risked Elizabeth to save his dad. no way, man.

2. Beckett. His whole character. All those twisty allusions they made about "marks" "ruling the sea" "pirate way coming to an end".... they wasted like 2 hours of screen time getting us all revved up to find out what all that meant, and then they totally SKIPPED IT!!!!!

3. What the HELL happened to Calypso????? That was just it for her? Majorly sloppy character arc, peoples. I can't even call it an arc.

4. (I just realized I am repeating my original review of the film... woops). Will and Elizabeth are fighting all throughout the film--- and betraying each other, and throwing their relationship away to save annoying fathers. So why, why, oh WHY in God's name do they suddenly decide to get married? i know they are both very spontaneous people, but it doesnt work with ANY character or plot arc. the scene was well done, but it doesnt fit with the rest of the film. you know in film 1, will and elizabeth have just had that dramatic fight type thingy below decks with the medallion, and then Will comes back up top and gives the heroic schpiel about "we have to fight" and Elizabeth gives him a sort of proud smile--- and that quick, simple moment is CRUCIAL to understanding how they rebuild their relationship and by the end of the film get engaged. There was NO MOMENT like that in film 3, and it totally wrecked the journey there, at least for me.

5. i cant talk about the bad-fan-fic honeymoon scene with them, or the strange lingerie that apparently pops out of the sea for their honeymoon pleasure, because some people on this site are so talented and have written scenes that are miles beyond that, and don't cheesify what ought to be a dramatic, satisfying, and meaningful conclusion to the "star crossed lovers". I think that random lingerie may be the biggest plot-hole in the film, actually.

6. Jack's story. It doesn't complete. in any way. He's in love with Elizabeth to the point of dying in film 2, then suddenly, he doesn't really care. He's found his bravery and his "good man", then he throws it out the window because of 10 minutes in a desert (please, Jack. suck it up.) THERE IS SO, SO MUCH THEY COULD HAVE DONE HERE~!!!!!! Something, ANYTHING to tie up the tension with Elizabeth (and something that isn't a two line gimmick about it never working out, gag me.) Something, ANYTHING to suggest that the infamous Captain Jack Sparrow is still the same strong, mysterious, swoon-worthy rogue we all fell for originally. Something, ANYTHING to suggest that the most clever thing he is able to do onscreen isn't laying an EGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

7. wedding dress sank, fate intervened, but apparently, that was a "Just Kidding!" moment.

8. Davy Jones controlled the ocean THROUGH his kraken. HELLO!!!!! Without the kraken, he was like, a scary guy who could walk through walls, and that's it. the Kraken was his power. (that's what film 2 clearly stated, anyways) YET, in film 3, Beckett's achieved his goal and kills the kraken?????? WTF? Makes no sense--- without the kraken, Jones is just another fish face for Beckett to order around. Certainly not capable of any real damage, and definitely not helping Beckett control the sea.

9. Calypso the sea goddess can be imprisoned in a brig? WILL, ELIZABETH, AND JACK can escape those, for crying out loud. Yet she is just stuck there moping???? Once again, it's laughable.

10. Davy Jones doesn't kill Beckett? Why not? With Beckett dead, he could snatch the heart back and make off. MAKES NO SENSE.

11. WORST ONE FOR ME__________ : The ENTIRE royal navy, and the entire EITC fleet, turn around and leave the pirates alone after ONE SHIP is destroyed. Beckett dies and their 3 thousand ships turn around and go home?????? YEAH RIGHT. In any historical context, there would be 2nds and 3rds in command who would instantly step up and assume control, and they all had the same goal, to wipe out the pirates. They obviously had more than enough man-power to accomplish it. They would have stayed and finished the job, in any logical or historical story.

I have more, but I reckon that rant will last for a while.

Kate...I love you...and I miss you..this is awesome....this is exactly what I am talking about....I soo agree with everything you say 100%!!!

I don't get the Tia Dalhma/Calypso story at all....

I don't get the Beckett story with Jack and their history....

I don't get how Elizabeth and Will are so mistrusting and hateful and then suddenly in the middle of a battle "marry me"...gag me...

so many Plot-Holes..thank you....

AWE should really stand for Awful Whelpy Ending....or something like that...

Originally posted by potcfan2003
Well the young realize that a wicked old man and Liz wouldn't work, and the old people (no offense) feel bad for the old man. that's my take on it.

Jack is a wicked old man.....what????? He's Captain Jack Sparrow and the first time I saw POTC i thought he was only about 30 and I thought Liz was about 22 - so not that big of an age difference....but sometimes age and love have nothing to do with it...Look at Demi Moore and Ash Kurtcher..she's in her 40's and he's in his 20's...

And 40 is not old.....but I guess it is to you....

and Will is a pansy, whelpy....too good to be true "Tool"

Originally posted by ivebeendepped43
yeah, ive been talking to Chiki on MSN and she says she is just really bugged by Johnny right now. i asked her why but she sais she doesnt wanna talk about it. shes sick of talking about him. but she thinks KMC is just getting worse because of AWE. and i cant say i disagree. i mean, i could never get tired of talking about him, but everyone is obsessing over AWE a bit..

Mina was on here the other day she posted on the Sparrabeth thread...but I think she's bugged by Johnny because he didn't want it to be Sparrabeth...he was all for how it ended for Jack....but that's just Johnny and I knew that in the back of my head..I kind of knew that based on everything I had been reading that Johnny didn't think Sparrabeth was how the movie should go....but then He shouldn't have made Jack look at Elizabeth the way he did.....his eyes are so expressive......but I can't be upset with Johnny...he's just way too beautiful...and I'm sure his reasonings were very well founded..

And for the record...as Much as I love Johnny..I did not enjoy the multiple Jack scene that much....i mean if there had been a few that would've been okay.....i didn't like the laying of the egg..or the goat thing...and I didn't enjoy the licking of the rock.....just a little too much over the top....

i liked that bit

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
And for the record...as Much as I love Johnny..I did not enjoy the multiple Jack scene that much....i mean if there had been a few that would've been okay.....i didn't like the laying of the egg..or the goat thing...and I didn't enjoy the licking of the rock.....just a little too much over the top....

i hated that scene. nightmare after tacos, anyone? gah. gross. this was supposed to be a fun, swashbuckling SUMMER ACTION FLICK, not a monstrously depressing dali-esque swing into romeo and juliet meets king kong.

and i don't really love Johnny. I think he's kind of weird. brilliant actor, for sure, but i get annoyed when actors get all involved in the writing process and insist on having the final say in the ending. that's what they hire writers for. but hey, what do i know of that world.


lovethemtigers, i'm so glad we can share all our rantings together... if chiki and lovelyone were here, we could really get things going.

AAHHHHHHH! Finally someone pointed this out.

Kate thank you for pointing out that it was weird that the whole fleet of EITC didn't wipe the pirates out after Becket died. I've been trying to say that the whole time.

And yes I agree that I DO NOT LIKE THE IDEA OF Elizabeth waiting for Will for TEN YEARS. Because I guess I think she just turned back to square one again. She went back to what she didn't want which was sitting around doing nothing instead of being a pirate which she proved she was in DMC!!!!!!!! YEESH!

But I was just saying for good measures that if the two choices of WE ending would be:

A) Bittersweet like the one we got.
B) sailing into the sunset as they made out

I would choose A cause I would throw up with B.

I'm so frustrated!! Tigers? Thanks for making this thread.

I LOVE Johnny(and his wierdness lol) and I think u all know that by now.(even though I agree that I don't like it when actors start snooping in the script) I knew he wouldn't want JE cause he just doesn't see Jack as a romantic character and wants to keep playing the pirate he was to begin with. That's what scares me that if they do a number four we will get the same performance and it'll start getting boring (I'll never get bored of Johnny as Jack but I meant other people)

I don't think he is THE ONLY ONE responsible for the none JE ending though cause I felt that T&T were leaning towards WE all along if you noticed.

I loved the multiple Jacks(different sides of captain Jack)...not the chicken or the goat though. and not the rock licking...I just didn't GET WHAT IT WAS THERE FOR??? Just to say Jack's gone crazy??

I'm sorry for ranting but that's what the thread is for right? I loved AWE when I looked past the plot and focused ONLY on the performances and the how great everything looked. But a good plot is the most important to me so I just end up annoyed again.

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
I kind of knew that based on everything I had been reading that Johnny didn't think Sparrabeth was how the movie should go....but then He shouldn't have made Jack look at Elizabeth the way he did.....his eyes are so expressive......but I can't be upset with Johnny...he's just way too beautiful...and I'm sure his reasonings were very well founded..

Sorry for the double post but I couldn't agree more!!!
He looks like a man revealing the wounds of his soal in that scene and then he puts on a grin as soon as Liz starts talking to him and I feel like he doesn't want to feel vulnerable in front of her...and that's even sadder.

I agree...his eyes were so expressive. I feel he wanted to stay true to the character and express that Elizabeth leaving did effect him...but that was just so sad!

hmmm....

i think i actually would have preferred w/l making out sailing away on a ship, as opposed to the ending chosen, because it would have at least left us with more of the feeling 1 left us with (which was cheesy, but in a good way). I was assuming that was how it would end (and though i disliked the coupling, im always up for fun, cheery romance endings) but it's like, NO ONE got what they wanted. W/Ls have nothing to look forward to except a middle-age get-to-know-you-and-our-fatherless-child awkward moment, and J/Eers didn't even get the desperately needed closure that would have been so simple and so meaningful to add to the film. BOGUS.

im going to see it again (i've only seen it once) because i feel sad that i was so excited and then disliked it so much... i feel like i need to give it one more chance, though since the story hasnt changed i doubt my feelings on it will. but i will try to shorthand the script so we can get back to doing our interpretation of it... hehehe.

I'm with you Kate...I've only seen it once and have no desire to see it again. I will get the DVD because hey, it's Captain Jack Sparrow...

I am very sad. At this time last year we were so full of excitement and possibilities..and now this. This emptiness. I guess this trilogy, this forum and eveyrthing about Pirates had become like a family, such a part of my life and for this movie to be such a HUGE...make that hugish disappointment.....i just feel so.....blah.......

That sounds so depressing! I feel so sad and insignficantly small!

Yep...DMC, the whole gist of it "just kidding"....a wedding interrupted, or FATE INTERVENES, Elizabeth hijacks a ship without firing a single shot..just like Jack...., the wedding dress sinks and then is followed by the "proposal" and curiosity conversation, the compass pointing to Jack after the Persuade Me scene and then again on the island, I mean I know all that has been explained..but when you watch it you think that is what is happening and especially because of everything developing or what we thought was developing between Jack and Liz, and don't forget Norrington saying "it's a curious thing, there was a time when I would have given anything for you to look like that while thinking about me"...meaning the way she looks when she thinks about Jack...see at this point Norrie has witnessed the compass and the persuade me conversation and he is quite aware of what is going on between jack and liz.....but then that was just dropped too......just kidding,,,not quite sure why Norrington had to say that to her.....just to tease us into thinking that it was possible i guess....so that when the kiss happened we would fall hook line and sinker......for something that never really was.....BITTER...very bitter.....




True, I hadn't thought about this...but so very true and stupid...laughable like you say. The entire Calypso/Tia Dalhma story...ridiculous....why did they make such a big deal out of her in DMC, never really figured out why Jack was more worried about his front than his backside when facing Tia...and I hate how she grew into a Giant Creature and dispersed into a trillion crabs....i just wanted to crawl under my seat, like I was embarrased for the makers of the trilogy, like I owned it and couldn't believe that this is what they came up with....I guess I felt like I did own it since we had invested so much time in analyzing this dang movie/trilogy....




I know..I really thought we would hear about Jack's past and why Beckett hated Jack so much...and why Jack hated Beckett...and about Piracy coming to an end and all that stuff......"jack sparrow must find his place in the new world or perish".......good grief such hype for nothing...

they just rushed AWE and in their rush they blew it....but I guess they don't really care.....they made major bucks and all those Orli fans out there are happy with it.....just so they can see a "hot" will in a ripped red shirt with a scar on his chest nuzzling Elizabeth's knee on a beach..Pluzzeee......somebody just wake me from this nightmare and we can go back to May 2007 and start all over again.....

How about we go back to May 2006 instead?

How about that day when I watched the DMC trailer and felt so excited about the JE scenes I saw some one come up to me and shake me by the shoulder and tell me "GIRL!! Don't watch this movie! You'll fall in love and then have your heart broken."

Never mind though! I realized that if I could go back I would still watch DMC cause if we forget about AWE it was one of the bst movies in recent years.

When I stepped out of the theatre after watching DMC I had the sense that I wanted to watch it 100 more time again and I went to watch it the very next day. AWE didn't give me that sweet feeling. Instead left me with an emptiness in the bottom of my belly (I've seen it a lot pf times but I still get that feeling every time.)

I know what you mean Tigers...as I sat in the theatre watching AWE with my family I felt like it was MY movie. MY baby. And I was presenting it to them. I wanted to feel proud of it...to feel that all the analyzing and discussing we'd done hadn't gone to waste. Even though my family ended up loving it I myself felt it didn't step up to one and two.


DMC and COTBP had so much symbolism and hidden meanings and interpertations(wedding dress, fate intervenes, the heart shaped locker, JEs conversation, Jack rips Lizzie's corset...) and I don't see much of that woven in hidden meaning sin AWE. Do you guys see that?

The whole reason I loved pirates was that it seemed like a summer bluckbuster but beneath it, it was giving hidden messages of freedom and lopsided morality in smart subtle conversations, gestures and actions.

okay, i feel kind of bad. i don't want to imply that it wasn't a good film--- because it was, overall. Well made, well performed, good music (except that electric guitar part, um, whatever), all of it. Obviously it was brilliant, it did terrific at boxoffice.

It just didn't ring my bell right. My personal problems with the story are mainly emotive.

Definitely there were major plot holes, but most films have those. I could have overlooked those easily if the film had made me happier.

I feel the same way about it, being my movie and stuff. I was embarrassed during the Tia transforming scene and I left feeling disappointed when everyone else really liked it or loved it even.

One of the things that I loved soooo much about Pirates 1 &2 was their endings. They were so exciting and just awesome. They left you with a smile on your face and a good feeling inside.. "Drink up me hearties yo ho" "What's become of my ship" And the credits pop up... AWE was sorta...la de da de da..

Originally posted by IheartPocky
One of the things that I loved soooo much about Pirates 1 &2 was their endings. They were so exciting and just awesome. They left you with a smile on your face and a good feeling inside.. "Drink up me hearties yo ho" "What's become of my ship" And the credits pop up... AWE was sorta...la de da de da..

I totally agree.
Pirates 1 was like "Aww that was sweet." or "That was so cool, I loved it" and such. Pirates 2 was like "Omg, so many amazing cliffhangers, I want more!" Pirates 3 was like "Um..okay? What next?" or "That was very sad. I feel a bit sick to my stomach now.."

Originally posted by tee_pirategirl
When I stepped out of the theatre after watching DMC I had the sense that I wanted to watch it 100 more time again and I went to watch it the very next day. AWE didn't give me that sweet feeling. Instead left me with an emptiness in the bottom of my belly (I've seen it a lot pf times but I still get that feeling every time.)

I know what you mean Tigers...as I sat in the theatre watching AWE with my family I felt like it was MY movie. MY baby. And I was presenting it to them. I wanted to feel proud of it...to feel that all the analyzing and discussing we'd done hadn't gone to waste. Even though my family ended up loving it I myself felt it didn't step up to one and two.

You hit the nail, baby! I felt cheated, as if I've just been dumped by my lover. I'm still feeling the pain and emptiness. I've never felt like this before for any movie. I can't explain it. Non-shipper family members think I'm crazy.

I still feel that there are so many holes in the J/E relationship. It bothers me so much.
I love how Jack's line in COTBP, "Stop blowing holes in my ship!" could be thought of as him yelling at the writers while they were writing AWE. It actually is HIS ship, because he's a part of it, and they needed to stop putting holes in it.
So it kind of has a double meaning. Lol, I don't know if that even makes sense. Hey, its 4AM.

Great line.

Originally posted by tee_pirategirl
. When I stepped out of the theatre after watching DMC I had the sense that I wanted to watch it 100 more time again and I went to watch it the very next day.

I cried after dmc! Then my brother pointed out there was another 3 hours in which they could get back together.

See...it's so sad...willabethers hated DMC and sparrabethers hated AWE...well, maybe not hate, hate is a strong word...more like disliked, felt uneasy.....

im a sparrabether and i loved AWE. I knew that it couldn't end J/E anyway, so i wasnt disappointed.

just saw it again (see, I tried!) and hated it twice as much. Between the lingerie, the conversation with knee and orgasm, the major frump outfit at the end, and the kissing every man in sight, Elizabeth was freakishly annoying.
the violence was out of control and totally unnecessary, and 7 full minutes were spent on shots of bursting wood smitherines during battles. i was actually embarrassed to watch most of it.

thank goodness for Gibbs and Barbossa.

HAHAHA!!! "Stop blowing holes in my ship!!" I'll be sure to yell that at T&T if I ever see them!!

But I'd accepted that JE wouldn't happen and I was just looking forward to seeing a great movie and get closure in the end and I didn't get the closure and I got upset. (I just love one and two more)

I didn't enjoy the romantic aspect of the plot and all the 'holes'...but I loved the performances, music, CGI and some of the lines were real classics.

Yes I DID feel VERY unseasy but...I still loved MOST of the things except for the ending. I loved every scene as a stand alone until we reached all the WE flufiness which I really don't think was even DONE very well.

Ok so maybe that's my JEness talking. Maybe it was really good and I can't see it but it wasn't my cup of tea.

Sorry for the double post but...crossed swords in the sand to make us understand what was happening? PUH-LEEEZ!

okay....so here's what I like about AWE:

Captain Jack Sparrow, Barbossa, Gibbs.....

I was embarrased by the Multiple Jack Scene...I mean I was okay with him shooting the guy eating the peanut, and stabbing the "good" jack that got them into that mess in the first place....but I didn't like the chicken egg layin thing and the goat.....

I liked when Jack said "Gentleman, I wash my hands of this weirdness" and jumps down off the Pearl and onto the sand.....

I like when jack sails in on the mast of the Pearl over the dunes and then walks up to the crew in Purgatory...and the way he walks back to Gibbs after seeing LIzzy and says "The Locker, you say?"

I like when Jack shoots himself in the cannon and says "If I wasnt (mad), then this would never work"...and then when he lands on the Pearl's Mast and says "and that was without a drop of rum"....

I love how tough and stoic he looks walking on the beach at Parlay and the way he tells Liz "Listen to the Tool" when refereing to Will.......and the way he bows to her and says "As you command" and then switches sides with Will....

I hated the multiple Jacks in the FD brig...I was embarrased by that part...

and of course I hated when WIll and Liz talk down in the hole of the Pearl about trust and how she killed Jack..and I hated the stupid Wedding in the middle of the battle...and by the way...Liz and Will aren't really married...one must be Captain of a Ship to marry someone in holy matrimony and Jack is Captain of the Black Pearl not Barbossa.....

and don't even get me started on that disgusting Love Scene sex on the beach scene.....I swear...that was torture to sit through.....

Okay...so the more I talk about this trilogy that I hold so near and dear to my heart...until AWE....I am highly confused as to what they did with Jack.....and why would Johnny agree to portray him so....I mean really...he was barely in the movie compared to one and two.....and that right there is reason enough for me to dislike AWE.....

So many Plot Holes..and not enough substance...I really can't relate to those that say this was an awesome, great movie.....it could have been..it had so much potential.......but failed...I can't believe it's 5th on the all-time money grossing movies......

Originally posted by tee_pirategirl
Sorry for the double post but...crossed swords in the sand to make us understand what was happening? PUH-LEEEZ!

sorry I double and triple posts sometimes...but so many thoughts cross my mind at one time and I want to express them....but these double crossed swords in the sand...was like a knife to my soul.....

...........................Too sad for words.

Agreed!

Tigers I basically agree with what you did and didn't like. I liked the multiple Jacks...except for the chicken and the goat too. I liked the part in the pugatory where he sees everyone again. I liked th epart in Shipwreck Cove. And I actually liked the multiple Jacks in the FD brig but I definitely agree with ALL the things you disliked. And I felt kinda awkward about the king kong version of Tia Dalma

Basically...I can't say AWE wasn't a GREAT movie but it wasn't a great movie for ME.
Now that I look back except for too much WE, lots of plot holes, the ending and turning Jack's character back to square one I didn't have much of a problem with it but that in and of itself is enough isn't it?

Lets just say COTBP is for everyone.
DMC is for JE shippers.
AWE is for WE shippers.
Lets just pretend AWE didn't happen. Lets pretend everything ended with DMC and that Lizzie realized after killing Jack that she loved him and decided to fetch him back for the world's end.

^^^I'm with you Tee......lets just pretend AWE never happened...I could live with that "Gone With The Wind" ending......if it ended with DMC i would have been satisfied...we could have all imagined our own version of what happened...that she goes to World's End...tells him she is sorry, that she acted on a selfish impulse and that he was right..they are very much alike...they sail back from World's end...and Will accepts that things change......

And reading over your post......

Tee Wrote:


LOL...that's pretty much the entire movie in a nutshell..so taking that into consideration, the movie wasn't great at all....for ME....so take out the W/E, the plot holes, the ending and Jack going back to square one...all that's left is Barbossa, Gibbs, Marty, Cotton, Cotton's Parrot and Jack the Monkey......and a bunch of battle scenes....oh, but wait, that was a plot hole too.....and Barbossa was a plot hole..and even Jack the Monkey....because...now, when they came back from World's end, we never once saw the skeleton Monkey...so did that mean that the Monkey was no longer immortal since he had been to World's End and back??

HAHAHAHA!!My point exactly.

AWE just wasn't for my tastebuds...now maybe if someone wanted to watch it just to see some swashbuckling and battles and a few funny lines and really didn't care about the movie like we do, didn't care about the plot holes or the coupling than they would probably find it great.

Maybe that's why it made so much money but we all know it would make more money if it was JE...that's not even a matter of taste...it's a fact

^^^^oh I agree...if it ended the way we have discussed recently on the Sparrabeth thread...I truly think AWE would have topped Titanic as the top money making movie of all time....especially if they would have resolved the many plot holes...and if Tia Dahlma would have had more substance then turning into a helpless woman who couldn't break out of a brig and then turns into a Jolly Giant that is made up of millions of crabs.......

when i look back on all the interviews and spoilers we had before going into this movie..it's all one big joke.....sad, so sad....it's only and I mean only saving grace is the pure and simple fact that Johnny Depp play Captain Jack Sparrow.....

Yes we did.

We didn't see him as a SKELETON...I think that's what she means.

Did we see him as a skeleton? I really don't remember.

if you're talking about Jack the monkey as a skeleton, we did see him, after credits scene, CotBP...

if not, then.. sorry for jumping in..

Actually we WERE talking about Jack the monkey but we were talking about him in AWE...we didn't see him as a skeleton in AWE did we?

no. sadly, we didn't.

we did see him do something important though.. hmm

This isn't really a plothole, but it's something I have a problem with. Liz gets ready to go to the beach to spawn with Will and everyone says goodbye to her. In a way, it's sweet, but it's really awkward and weird. Here you have all these guy pirates and the girl pirate they have worked with and fought with and most likely love in some way and off she goes to have sex for the first time and they all know that's what she's about to do.

Gibbs: Your chariot, milady.

Whow, Gibbs is never creepy and I love him to death, but there he sounds like a giggling schoolgirl who might, just might, get to watch what Liz is about to do.

Barbossa: Mrs. Turner

Is this supposed to be a callback to the first film when he thought her name was Turner? Liz and Barbossa's relationship was probably the one that changed the most. He went from respecting her as a worthy adversary, to plain hating her, to mentoring her and being the guy that married her off. And that's it? Mrs. Turner? It's just so weak.

Pintel and Ragetti: Goodbye, Poppet.

This is the only one that's okay. It's kind of cute and I like it. But they still know what she's going off to go do.

Then you have Jack, and even if you're one of the few that thinks there is nothing romantic between him and Liz anymore, his perverted mind knows EXACTLY what's going to happen and has no trouble imagining it and yet he has to tell her goodbye. It's freaky and a cheesefest. Even without kidnapping her and whisking her away, it's too much for all these pirates to elbow each other and go "wink wink nudge nudge."

Why not have Liz meet Will on a ship and go sail to a beach together? Why not have Will come aboard and pick her up? It's just a creepy, awkward sendoff for her, like she's about to join the Non-Virgin Club.

Lol about to join the non-virgin club..

You know come to think of it Willo...you are so right...it's very creepy....thus the kind of sad, melancholy way Jack is standing there leaning against the railing of the Pearl as she approaches......he knows what's gonna happen, they all do...they are no dummies..so, yeah,it's very creepy...I've missed you Willo and your logical way of thinking things through....

And yes, I was refering to Jack the Monkey in AWE...but I'm sure Surreal knows since she spent her lives' savings to see AWE........I've only seen it once..but I just don't recall seeing skeletal Jack the Monkey after they return from World's End.....

I only spent one lifetime's worth of savings to see AWE. Now that I've got money again I spent it on Harry Potter and Order of the Phoenix (and despite the many plot changes they made to it, I love it! Go see it!! ).

We do see Jack the Monkey as a skeleton, briefly. He gets shot out of a canon and assists Will on the Flying Dutchman. "Thank you, Jack", remember?

Poor Jack the monkey...the curse will never be broken for him.

OMGSH WILLO!!!!!!!!!! *hugs Willo crazily* YOURE BACK!!!

Kate, luv, these are for you, but I was looking around the internet and found these other funny and interesting plot holes that have been uncovered in AWE.....

And these are straight from TastyPirates...The Plot Hole Thread.....

1) Here is one!! I don't know if anyone has thought about this one, but I was watching the W/E island 'love fest' scene the other day on youtube. (Yes I know, How could I? It made me really sick) But I caught something..Can anyone please tell me how the hell did Will got to the Flying Dutchman WITHOUT a longboat? Oh yes I forgot, he is fishboy after all.

2) I've got a nice question. How exactly did Will manage to spend 10 minutes under water in Sao Feng's bathhouse? Rehersal before the CotFD thing?

3) Well, we've established in COTBP that Will is Aquaman.

During the fight with the Black Pearl, when Will gets stuck below decks, he is struggling to find an escape under the water when they light the powder magazine. And yet, by the time the Interceptor finally blows up, Will has managed to escape and swim the half mile distance to the Pearl.

4) What about Jack's magic powers? No one has mentioned his superhuman ability to dry off in seconds after a good drenching? I guess that's a talent that comes in handy when you're hanging with Aquaman.

5) Asked this in another thread:What about the small bottle Jack took in Tia's hut in DMC? Since they focused on him taking it and putting it in his pocket, I thought it had to mean something. Guess I was wrong. It has been bugging me ever since along with the Jar of Dirt, though I like it and find it strangly funny.

Another thing: The coin the kid who gets hung has, what does it mean? It's not part of the Po8. Beckett has similar coins on his desk. What are their purpose?

6) This one was posted by Mina: This was probably mentioned already, but, I have to get it out of my system.

OK, we have Elizabeth and Will having their little talk about trust. He says "how can I trust you?" She goes: "You CAN'T."

Um, she shoved him away. Uh, the scene with Sao, she pushed Will.

OK, you get my idea. So, it's funny on how they don't trust each other then they have their little wedding...in the rain...in the middle of a battle...

Most of those aren't plot holes. Will is Destiny Boy, so that pretty much clears up Will's amazing abilities to survive. Sort of like how Jack manages to survive falling how many hundreds of feet to the earth? Even with bridges breaking his fall, his spine would probably have been crushed, nevermind him being able to get up and run away.

That's just Hollywood. Any W/E 'plot hole' has been explained. It's not a plot hole so much as people don't like it so they don't want to accept any explanation.

But if we are naming plot devicey situations or plot holes...where did Liz learn to shoot a rifle? Where'd that boat come from in CotBP that she tied sheets together to climb down? How come Will and Bootstrap don't, in fact, look anything remotely like each other?

Originally posted by willofthewisp
This isn't really a plothole, but it's something I have a problem with. Liz gets ready to go to the beach to spawn with Will and everyone says goodbye to her. In a way, it's sweet, but it's really awkward and weird. Here you have all these guy pirates and the girl pirate they have worked with and fought with and most likely love in some way and off she goes to have sex for the first time and they all know that's what she's about to do.

Gibbs: Your chariot, milady.

Whow, Gibbs is never creepy and I love him to death, but there he sounds like a giggling schoolgirl who might, just might, get to watch what Liz is about to do.

Barbossa: Mrs. Turner

Is this supposed to be a callback to the first film when he thought her name was Turner? Liz and Barbossa's relationship was probably the one that changed the most. He went from respecting her as a worthy adversary, to plain hating her, to mentoring her and being the guy that married her off. And that's it? Mrs. Turner? It's just so weak.

Pintel and Ragetti: Goodbye, Poppet.

This is the only one that's okay. It's kind of cute and I like it. But they still know what she's going off to go do.

Then you have Jack, and even if you're one of the few that thinks there is nothing romantic between him and Liz anymore, his perverted mind knows EXACTLY what's going to happen and has no trouble imagining it and yet he has to tell her goodbye. It's freaky and a cheesefest. Even without kidnapping her and whisking her away, it's too much for all these pirates to elbow each other and go "wink wink nudge nudge."

Why not have Liz meet Will on a ship and go sail to a beach together? Why not have Will come aboard and pick her up? It's just a creepy, awkward sendoff for her, like she's about to join the Non-Virgin Club. I agree Willo.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
like she's about to join the Non-Virgin Club.

agreed with everything, and this is ROFL!

sorry, Surreal...but the W/e plothole have not been explained and cleared-up....maybe for you but not for me/us....
no argueing though....

and yes, we could nick-pick this movie to death..I've always wondered how Jack was able to survive that fall on Cannibal Island..that's why at times I wonder if he is a God trapped in a human body, after all...so why would he need the fountain of youth????

and I mainly posted that "plot holes" from tasty pirate to make Kate laugh..no real insult to Will intended..and yes, no doubt about it, Will is destiny boy!!!! boy being the operative word...j/k...

HEHE! That made me smile Tigers...I know u didn't mean it as an insult. Just for the sake of the fun!

I know this isn't a plot hole but...isn't it freaky how they send Elizabeth off like they're mourning? Like something bad is gonna happen to her?

I mean yes! They're sad that they won't see her but not a 'pat on the back' or 'good job leading us in battle' or even 'have fun *wink wink*' or anything.

I half expected Pintel to throw himself on her and cry out 'don't do it popet! don't do it!'...his expression was like he was sending her off to her death.


But that's just me and my inability to appreciate the manner in which Elizabeth left or...left at all.

^^^^^I agree Tee...the biggest plot hole throughout the trilogy is that final goodbye sceen on the Pearl...it is as if they are sending her off to her death.....and why would you walk away from Captain Jack, shoot, seeing him standing there leaning against that rail, you just want to walk up, put your hands on his face and start kissing him all over.....

ummm....YEAH!!! That's why she leaned in to kiss him, she couldn't resist. WHY DID HE HAVE TO STOP HER?????????

I think it would have been nice if they added just one more line to the conversation.
Liz: It would never have worked between us.
Jack: Keep telling yourself that darling.
Liz leans in but Jack holds out his hands
Jack:Once was quite enough
Liz: Keep telling yourself that.

If they'd just added that one last line I think I would feel A LOT better. That's all I asked for AWE...I'd given up on the JE ending. I just wanted some nice Sparrabeth moments

Lol, that look he gives her as she leaves tells me he hasn't quite gotten his fix. He'll be back.

^^^yeah, something's up....he just smiles at her....as if to say "go have your one day with Will, and then I'll find you and show you what one day times ten years could be like! " LOL

Ha ha, it does seem that way, lovethemtigers. I think that's what a lot of willabethers and norribethers forget sometimes. Sparrabeth didn't win, but we sure weren't wrong. We knew there was something going on and that there was a chance.

Well, more than once in the trilogy, Liz looked like she would end up with James, Will or Jack.

she should have ended up with james. on the hotness factor of kisses in film 3, (not counting film 2 obviously) James wins by a longshot. action-movie shrap for why James should be her choice.

I think the trilogy makes plenty of subtle hints that going with James would have been the smartest choice all along.

Exactly! I mean she didn't love him as a husband so it wouldn't be right but it would definitely be the smart choice. I really love James! I vote their kiss the most beautiful in AWE...minus the fact that it's more of a goodbye kiss between parting friends and she doesn't feel the same. If we get past that part...it was so sweet!

There's a part in the first draft of COTBP where Elizabeth arrives at Isla De mUerte after the battle is over and cries out "thank god you're all right!" and there's a confused moment where the three men look at each other wondering which of them she means. Jack because...well she did kiss him on the cheek in that version and also there were some other moments. James because in all honesty she's engaged to him and says he's a 'fine man' and Will...do I really even have to explain this one?

So yeah in the first version it was implied (only a little) that she may end up with either of the three by the end of COTBP.

Yeah. I forgot about those first drafts. Interesting, weren't they? The deleted scenes give Liz and James much more bonding time and she seems to at least understand him, since we all know she's never loved him.

Then in DMC, something really interesting happens. Our 3 guys are suddenly fighting for a heart. LovelyOne was onto something here, but I'm pretty sure the commentary too mentions that you can look at this as 3 guys fighting for the heart of the only other one there not participating. They've had their moments with Liz and now they're all reunited and there's tension. They all come close, but we know at the end James is the one to walk away with it. So that could be a clue to the audience: hey, we all know you ship this way, but this guy here's not so bad.

In DMC when I first saw it, I actually thought he was over her. He didn't seem that lovestruck with her like he was in COTBP, but he was very bitter and zinged her with "latest fiance," implying she toyed with men. He also makes a face and looks away when Will and Liz kiss and is very easily talked into turning on Will by Jack (ah the power of negotiation). So by AWE, correct me if I'm wrong, but he is the only one to throw him arms around her and have one of those "thank goodness you're all right" moments with her that she had with Will in the second movie. And their kiss is out of this world.

So I wonder if the writers wanted us to know that even though there were no feelings there on Liz's part, that she would have been happiest in the long run with James?

i vote she would have. happier than playing single mom in a frumpy frock. James proved he could be both pirate and good man, and was never ashamed of admitting his mistakes. He could have provided her the stability and comfort she needed after losing her father (the main male influence in her life) whilst still providing her with adventure (hot kisses during dramatic escapes, anyone?)

Ultimately, though I shipped Sparrabeth (and I sort of abandoned that ship after AWE, because Elizabeth's character changed, in my opinion, for the worst and she no longer fit Jack) I think James got shafted losing out to Will. If you are trying to make one guy the obvious choice for the girl, why on earth would you make him compete with johnny depp AND jack davenport????

Originally posted by katelovespirate



Amen to that kate....I agree wholeheartedly.....

I mean, I'm still a Sparrabether...because I still think Elizabeth and Jack had a connection that no one else did....sure Will and Liz had a connection, but it, to me, was still not as powerful and capturing as Jack and LIz.....because with Jack and Liz it was agreeing and disagreeing, challenging, understanding..etc.....

Anyways, would I ship Elizabeth and James....yep, anything..anything but Liz and Will.....I just don't get it.....if they wanted her to be with Will..then they should have searched harder for someone to play Will because I just don't think Orlando was right for the part...and I guess that's just me.....

Go ahead and bash me Willabethers.....i've no worries...

Not bashing, but disagreeing gently. Will was perfectly played by Orlando. Will as a character is quite interesting, considering how much he changes, grows, and the situations he's had to face.

I like Will, I empathize with him in a way I haven't been able to connect to the other characters.

The biggest plot hole to me, of course, is not a plot hole, but the idea that many of you formed that after being killed, Jack would possibly want Elizabeth in any capacity, and why in the world you would think that it would be healthy for him to WANT to be with Elizabeth.

You would never try to convince a woman to go back to an abusive boyfriend, right? Even if he hit her because he secretly really loved her but he felt he had to punish her because she was too tempting for him to deal with, or too tempting for other men to be around, you would be horrified of a woman going back to that man.

So why is it different for Jack and Elizabeth? Elizabeth abused Jack, killed him, and you want her to be with him? That's just weird to me.

Of course, my own life experiences have probably played a role in why I despise Sparrabeth so much, so don't mind me. I'm not trying to be insulting, but I just want to know why killing someone is a GOOD thing.

Any takers on my question?

Ah, who managed to take the ponderings of a norribeth ending, turn it into sparrabeth, and then start another shipping war? This is about plotholes, people. Get on the willabeth thread if you hate sparrabeth and get on the sparrabeth one if you hate willabeth.

Surreal, I understand your point about it being an abusive relationship and I do understand your point of view, I really do. Now, keeping that in mind, if all the characters broke off contact with the characters that managed to screw them over at some point, there wouldn't be any dialogue at all. Tia and Davy's relationship is full of psychological abuse, yet they were put back together. Hell, Barbossa mutinied against Jack and left him on an island to face the hot sun without any food or water and now they're all of a sudden friendly rivals? Gibbs was pretty pissed off that Will betrayed the crew to Sao Feng, the only one probably angrier than him was Elizabeth herself, yet they seemed to be on good terms when the movie was over. Will and Bootstrap, why on earth would anyone fight so hard for the dad that left him when he was a child when they have a gorgeous pirate girl that is crazy about him? The whole series is about how people treat each other so poorly and yet never really mean to do so. Elizabeth killing Jack is a huge betrayal, huge. It ruined any potential for the two of them to get together, and there was potential. It was in the works. But she messed it up doing what she thought would be for the greater good. Why does Jack treat this betrayal different than how he treated Barbossa's? I really don't know. The only answer I can come up with that makes him out to be the sane character I know he is is that he knows why she did it. She didn't do it for greed or to just be mean. She did it for Will because she loves him and if he was in her position, Jack would have done the same thing. The film was sloppy about his feelings regarding his resurrection back into the real world and even sloppier about how he went from very bitter towards her to maintaining that strong friendship they always had.

Now, had she left him there to die to "teach him a lesson" or because he looked at a girl lustily or something, yeah, that's abusive. No question. But Jack admired the decision because he would have done the same thing. He didn't like dying and will never forget that she did that to him, but he didn't decide to hunt her down and kill her like he chose to do with Barbossa. Talk about an abusive relationship.

I'm not going to go on too much more of a rant because we've had all the shipping debates before, but I know you ship a very interesting relationship (and I'm not talking about Willabeth) that is in its own way disturbing because one character has tried to kill the other, imprison the other, while the other has no grief at all making the other guy's life a living hell. Yep, the sparrington relationship.

I won't say something stupid like "well, willabeth can be considered an abusive relationship" because, well, that's a stupid thing to say. But please don't imply that sparrabethers need professional help or are attracted to abusive people. I manage to stay quite sane.

hmmm... interesting discussion here. i dont need to go into the details of my own life to assure you, Surreal, that I understand abusive relationships and am very aware of what that entails and the psychological problems that go with it. I dont think Sparrabeth comes anywhere near fitting the bill for an abusive relationship, though your analogy is clever. Unfortunately, if that is going to comprise an abusive relationship, then a whole bunch of disney movies (and great disney romances) are going to have to go out with the bathwater, too. It's fairly T and T, as well as Disney, to have that kind of betrayal, which some might refer to as tough love, some might refer to as romantic tension, and some might refer to as "difficult choices for the greater good." in any case, i think willo handled that topic nicely. personal trauma/baggage i think play a huge role in relationship-preferences, but my own certainly hasn't doused my love of sparrabeth.

on that note, Willo, I'm sorry if it appears I am dragging shipping wars back into your thread, because it isn't what I intend, however, almost all my plot-hole problems with AWE revolve around relationships, and as you put it, the sloppiness thereof. after discussing the annoyances of magically appearing lingerie, continuously discussed but never revealed "marks", the failure to go into detail about certain character's histories, and the complete surrender of beckett's fleet after his one ship is destroyed, etc, i naturally revert back to the relationship aspect of the story, since those are the ones that puzzled me the most.

Yes. I don't know what could have been edited out, but things could have been edited out to make sense of a few things, such as the mark. I really really wish they had gone into that along with Jack and Beckett's history. There's a really good story there we didn't get to hear. Lol, you're obsessed with Liz's lingerie. My guess is that maybe it's not so much lingerie so much as just what's under her armor. That's my assessment of that. But I wondered at first where it came from, too. They needed to spell out a few things. I know the best rule of film-making is give the audience 2 and 2 and let them make 4, but they gave us 2 and wanted us to make 4 with it. Hence all the different opinions about what certain things mean. And I'm not trying to ship anything here, but what is Beckett's fascination with sparrabeth? Is he trying to start stuff to be able to use later, does he suspect it, does he just like f*cking with people's heads? Is he jealous of one of them? Just like the series hints that Norrington was the best choice for Liz in the long run, there are plenty of hints to suggest that Beckett is in fact gay and is crushing big time on Jack...in his own unhealthy way, of course in the sense that if Jack just doesn't pounce on him right then and there, Beckett is just fine with killing him.

I didn't mean to explode on the abusive relationships thing. I just think a much more abusive one that is just as intriguing is Tia and Davy's and the only reason I think those two should stay together is so no one else gets caught up in it. Talk about a plot hole.

Calypso: I got over you a long time ago, but now I want you again.

Davy: But I'm going to talk in vague terms about what being captain of the Flying Dutchman means, and express my angst.

Calypso: That's all right. I'm going to shift in loyalties from you to the pirates, back to you, back to the pirates, etc.

Davy: Dear God, you really screwed me up and I cut out my heart, but I think I'm falling in love with you all over again.

Calypso: It's the whimsical, manipulative, ungrateful side of me, isn't it?

Davy: Actually it's the teeth that's doing it for me, but sure, I'll go with everything you just mentioned.

well, all of Liz's outfits seemed a bit weird to me in awe. i used to work as a costume designer and seamstress so i'm a bit of a nerd about that sort of thing, sorry... when something is anachronistic, or doesn't seem to be something the character would aptly wear, or comes out of nowhere, i tend to notice and freak out. plus, Elizabeth went from wearing literally one outfit throughout dmc (which was ugly but in a way, very realistic and quite refreshing for a female lead) to having all these bizarre changes happening all the time in AWE... not that i dont love a good kimono, but throughout the film i was getting more and more amused by the "queen amidala" looks that by the end of the film, with the way the honeymoon sequence worked out, i just couldn't help myself and had to laugh at the little black dress with nice slits up the side. obviously it can be explained, but the costumes in cotbp and dmc seemed so carefully researched, and then in awe, like the film, they took quite a lurch into another realm, so to speak.

Aw, I liked her costume in DMC, especially her coat. That coat is pretty cool. I think in the first two movies, the costume designers kept her costumes simple. Even her expensive London fru-fru dress is fairly simple in its design and pattern. In AWE, they obviously had more freedom since it's in another region. But she had too many costumes and I think simpler is better.

COTBP costumes:
1. Nightgown: simple, accurate, white looks good on her. This is her "white" movie.
2. Expensive gown that ends up water-logged: Yellowy, kind of her high society color, but overal very pretty
3. Back in the nightgown
4. Barbossa's wench dress. It doesn't look good on her imo, but it's simple and it seems most of Liz's captors like her to be dressed according to their fantasy
5. Her underwear, white, yet risque for its time
6. Her soldier costume, which is cool.
7. Back in a fru-fru dress. I really can't tell the difference between this one and the one at the bottom of the harbor. Maybe someone fished it out.

DMC

1. Soaked wedding dress the color of baby poop. Everything bad that happens to Liz happens when she's in yellow. The dress gets worse the longer she has it.
2. Her boy disguise. Practical, charming in a way
3. The vest/shirt combination that looks similar to Jack's costume. I think it looks good on her. She's one of the boys, her coat and hat are cool, it lets her fight and the shirt looks like it lets her breathe.

AWE: The nightmare begins
1. Her blue outfit that is a little too short. Practical for where she is. I like her shoes.
2. Her covered up "let's rescue Jack" costume. It looks like a cross between something in Braveheart and Mad Max. I can't really describe it becuse it looks complicated.
3. Her Geisha outfit, or as Kate calls it the Queen Amidala outfit. She's in this for so little time that it wasn't needed, but like Barbossa, Sao likes his captive girls to dress in a way that suits his fantasy before he goes on his wild raping spree. This costume gets better the more beat up it gets (see the norribeth kiss).
4. Her Samurai outfit. Okay, I understand she's the captain of a Singaporean ship, and wearing the cultural garb is not only practical, but good human relations with her crew. That said, she has this weird sash and her hat looks like a vagina from the top view. Since all the guys are taller than her, I'm sure they had a good laugh about it.
5. The black underwear. Uh, a little too modern for my taste. I would have preferred her in a more "bridal" piece, maybe similar to her COTBP underwear, only showing more skin, like maybe having the skirt come to mid-thigh and it have straps instead of sleeves. The black underwear makes her look like Elvira Goes to the Beach
6. Pseudo-DMC/Mom costume at the end: I don't get to see it that much to make a call about it, but I'm neutral for this one. It's hard to age a 22 year old to a 32 year old, so the frumpiness may be a way of enhancing the illusion that Keira has had a kid.

elvira goes to the beach... hahahahahaha....

Well, I guess she has more costumes in COTBP, but the nightgown is so similar to the underwear so that should count as one. Hey, just for my own benefit, someone post a picture of her dress that she almost drowns in versus her dress at the end. They look pretty much the same to me.

I'm sorry I posted a shipping comment in the plotholes thread..but hey I created the thread...soo.....just kidding. It's hard to pinpoint one particular plot hole, because for me the entire movie was one big plot hole that got swallowed up in the callypso whirlpool at the end of the movie......

I don't think j/e was an abusive relationship..that's a bit of a stretch...it's only a movie...and a fantasy movie at that......but If LIz is such a nasty, abusive person...why should she be with Will, for that matter.

but if you put it that way surreal, then you right....thank goodness, Jack wised up and stayed as far away from Elizabeth as possible....I just hope Will is watching his back....afterall, she is such a charming murderess........

oops, that 's right...Will's already dead.....a man with no heart...ironic that in the original script Will tells Jack that he can't let Elizabeth give her heart to a man who has no heart.....

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
I'm sorry I posted a shipping comment in the plotholes thread..but hey I created the thread...soo.....just kidding. It's hard to pinpoint one particular plot hole, because for me the entire movie was one big plot hole that got swallowed up in the callypso whirlpool at the end of the movie......

I don't think j/e was an abusive relationship..that's a bit of a stretch...it's only a movie...and a fantasy movie at that......but If LIz is such a nasty, abusive person...why should she be with Will, for that matter.

but if you put it that way surreal, then you right....thank goodness, Jack wised up and stayed as far away from Elizabeth as possible....I just hope Will is watching his back....afterall, she is such a charming murderess........


hahaha have i told you lately that i luv you??! hahaha you are great. i sort of agree, after awe, i stopped thinking jack could be with liz. liz changed too much. nice whirlpool comment.

Willo, I think the dress Liz wears at the end of cotbp has red hints to it, well, not bright red, but some color. and the neckline is different. but the overall schema is pretty similar. i like the end dress better than the one she almost drowns in. it's interesting that her wedding dress looks exactly like the dress that nearly kills her in film 1.

I love you too Kate....we've been at this for over a year now..can you believe it.....

aaagh your sigs are driving me crazy. they're just so.. hot. 0_0

"oops, that 's right...Will's already dead.....a man with no heart...ironic that in the original script Will tells Jack that he can't let Elizabeth give her heart to a man who has no heart....."------lovethemtigers


Ouch. Was that really going to be in there? That's so horrible. So I guess they "fight" over her, or were supposed to? I'm kind of glad that didn't happen. That's just such a mean thing for Will to say. He's hard on Jack, always has been, but wow.

(Jack runs off to his cabin and plays "Theme from Ice Castles" on his mp3 player. He lays on his bed and cuddles his stuffed squid.)

Jack: No one understands me, Mr. Jones Jr! Least of all Will. I thought he was my friend!

(Gibbs comes in)

Gibbs: Aw. Don't listen to Will. It's gonna be okay. (pats him)

Jack: Will (sniff) you (sniff) bring me some (sniff) rum? (optimistic smile)

Originally posted by willofthewisp
"oops, that 's right...Will's already dead.....a man with no heart...ironic that in the original script Will tells Jack that he can't let Elizabeth give her heart to a man who has no heart....."------lovethemtigers


Ouch. Was that really going to be in there? That's so horrible. So I guess they "fight" over her, or were supposed to? I'm kind of glad that didn't happen. That's just such a mean thing for Will to say. He's hard on Jack, always has been, but wow.

(Jack runs off to his cabin and plays "Theme from Ice Castles" on his mp3 player. He lays on his bed and cuddles his stuffed squid.)

Jack: No one understands me, Mr. Jones Jr! Least of all Will. I thought he was my friend!

(Gibbs comes in)

Gibbs: Aw. Don't listen to Will. It's gonna be okay. (pats him)

Jack: Will (sniff) you (sniff) bring me some (sniff) rum? (optimistic smile)

yes, poor misunderstood Jack...all Elizabeth and will ever did was take advantage of his good side.....Yes, the original script had that line in there, there was suppose to be another sword fight between Jack and Will..it was suppose to take place after Will escapes from the brig.....instead we got the conversation where Jack tells Will that he will stab the heart and Will can be with his charming murderess.....

Surreal, you are right...Will and Elizabeth do deserve each other...they are both spoiled rotten brats, who have no care to others feelings....

All they ever did was screw Jack over! Jack's better off without them..that is for sure....if there is a POTC4....let there be no Will and Liz.....I was watching Jessica Alba last night on David Letterman...now she would be a hot pirate mistress for Jack to hook up with......another younger woman..but hot just the same.......she was hooked up romantically with that older guy in Fantastic Four...so why not Johnny..who is like a thousand times, hotter, sexier, better looking than that dude in Fantastic Four....

You know, kate, I go back and forth....times like these I realize Jack is better off without Elizabeth..the one we saw in AWE.....but the Sparrabether in me can't help but remember the jack and liz from COTBP and DMC........

but, ultimately, if you consider everything that happened......then as Johnny said, "it's just better for his health, I reckon"..that Jack stay as far away from Elizabeth and Will as possible...

So, Kate, lovethemtigers, maybe I'm missing something huge, but how is AWE Liz worse than how she was in COTBP or DMC? She seems unsympathetic at times, mainly because of Norrington, but I don't understand how she's fine in DMC and horrible in AWE. A lot of horrible things happen to her in AWE-- she loses her father, is close to losing her relationship with Will, is close to losing her friendship with Jack, loses James, and loses Will briefly only to find out that he's alive but can't be with her for 10 years. So I think she's excused if she's a little harsher than what she was. But she really comes into her own in AWE, imo. She becomes a captain and the pirate king. And before you say so, she only traded Jack because she picked up on the fact that he and Will had planned something out. That's the trio working beautifully together. Unfortunately, I think had the movie been the same except that she does choose Jack, I think that would have made her look really unsympathetic.

I think this is what it comes down to for me. She doesn't have really strong moments of connection with any characters. It's like she's shut down from everyone throughout the film, and she's lost those moments of cheekiness and vulnerability that dot her perfermance in cotbp and dmc, making it more balanced. it AWE, she is harsh, shut down, pissed off, or screaming. It's not Keira's fault--- it's the way the character was written for AWE mostly i think that bothered me.
She never reconciles with Jack... never has any moment of understanding there. They are fighting, they hate each other, they are trading each other, and then after her husband almost dies and Jack weirdly saves him, they are all cool. wtf? makes no sense.
same with Will. She won't talk to him, won't look at him, is fighting with him, then suddenly marries him. there's a major gap in the journey. like you said, they gave us 2 and expected us to make 4 with it.
and the worst part of her character in film 3, for me, was choosing to be single mom with kid in frumpy dress. she's pirate king for about 10 minutes, then marries herself off, tries to be funny by wearing Will's boot, and then she's done. standing on a beach, pregnant, alone, etc. spends ten years raising a kid, etc. I'm not bothered that she didn't end up with Jack, because I didn't really like Jack in AWE either, but personally it's essentially a question of "wild, impulsive adventurer with your life ahead of you" or "married but single mom now raising kid by self with a price still over your head"... I always really identified with Liz's character but since the latter is what her character clearly wanted most, i found i no longer identified with her or even understood her.

i really tried hard to like the film. i went into it with a positive attitude, even though i had been informed it was a willabeth ending. and i hated it. i hated the message it gave, i hated that it tried to hero-ify the pirates, i hated that it didn't make sense, and i hated where it took ALL the characters. i saw it again to try and like it, and had to walk out of the theatre it bothered me so much. the character of jack sparrow lost his charm for me, the swashbuckling fun i had been hoping for turned into a nightmare. but some people loved it, so that's just me.

I wasn't criticizing. I just wanted to know. I think AWE just affected us both a little differently. It's my least favorite of the series. COTBP by far had the best story and DMC added a few things to the characters without changing completely like other series have been guilty of doing (cough, The Mummy, cough).

While I am all for women having careers and part of me is a huge feminist (you are talking to a military member here), I saw nothing wrong with her deciding to be a wife and mother. As far as I understood, she was still the pirate king. I figured she had taken time out of her adventures the day she knew Will was expected to come back to wait at the place he left off. It never crossed my mind that she would just give up all other aspects of her personality.

Now do I think that was achieved through the editing? Hell no. That's AWE's problem is its editing. And I am in complete agreement with you about her relationship with both Jack and Will in this one. She's much more withdrawn and I don't know...there is always something suspicious to me when one member of a couple spontaneously suggests marriage like that. What, she didn't think they would make it out alive? How many times between their last attempt at a wedding and this moment have they almost died? Why now? I was very willing to have a willabeth ending, but that required a little more growth in their relationship for me. True, they don't have that fairy tale romance anymore, but there growth was making up after a fight. They had misunderstood each other and had been secretive. And then they made up. That's not growth or maturation imo. That's what couples do. If Will and Liz had never had a fight until then, that's pretty strange to me. The sex....meh. I was much more disturbed with how Liz actually got there than the act itself. (Hello, non-virgin club as all the older men wink)

Jack. I LOVED that we were getting in his head. He was sort of the mystery man in COTBP and we got to know him a little better in DMC, but here we were in his mind, seeing his own personal hell. I thought it was intriguing and loved it immensely. And then...the multiple Jacks stayed throughout and became a sort of running joke. Um, okay, I can deal with that. Ah, he's mad at Liz. Rightly so. He's afraid of death because of her. Wait, now they're talking? Wait, now he's voting her the pirate king? I guess he must be okay with her. Whow, they're talking about if it would or would not have worked out between them? What the hell? I liked that he sort of "rekindled" (slashy word, but I don't mean it that way) his relationship with Will, but I didn't like his sudden obsession with the Fountain of Youth. I never liked that premise. I guess he's always wanted immortality, but they turned it up and that just didn't click with me. But I had a new appreciation for him. We saw his tormented side, his warrior side, and his "oh my God, my friend is dying" side.

So yeah, AWE was the poorest of the three, but I for the most part enjoyed it. It's an interesting discussion, how the characters change and how much change is too much to be believable.

I agree with Kate...it's not Keira's fault...it's the writing....

I too, just thought Liz was harsh and cold..yes, I know, alot of things happened to her that was bad..but that's the entire problem with AWE.....COTBP and DMC were fun movies filled with comedy...and mystery....AWE was just filled with misery!

I just wanted to have one moment between Jack and Elizabeth...because there is a connection between them that goes beyond friendship..but we got nothing........

I just wanted a moment between jack and will..where Will tells jack thank you and admits to jack what a good man he truly is......

I have not explanations for my feelings...except for the fact that I simply just did not enjoy AWE...and I think the reason I'm so upset about it is because never before have i so anticipated a movie..or anything and be so disappointed.......

Hopefully you are reading the surrealkatewillomina project. I consider it how AWE should have been. I'm a little torn and I feel like I'm playing both sides, but even though I liked AWE, I have huge problems with it, a few being what you mentioned. Hence why I'm on this thread so much. Yes, I would have liked closure with a few relationships, besides Jack and Elizabeth's. I would have liked James to stay alive and actually contribute to the plot as significantly as he did in DMC. I would have liked more explanation of the curse so we would be 100% on the same page as the writers when the movie ended. I would have liked the whole peanut thing to have stopped.

hey dont bag out the peanut thing! i liked the peanut thing.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I would have liked more explanation of the curse so we would be 100% on the same page as the writers when the movie ended. I would have liked the whole peanut thing to have stopped.

amen, sister.

Amen, I say!

I agree...I was so disappointed in what became of the lovely James Norrington...I had such better visions for him than what we got...

I didn't want Gov. Swann to die...I mean, not like he was a big contributor to the plots or anything...I just though his death was useless....

I did not like the peanut thing....I didn't like the goat thing....I mean the multiple Jacks would have been fine...but it went a little overboard.....I understand it was to show us the madness going on inside Jack's head in Davy's Locker...but I don't think the goat and such was necessary to do that.

and Soa Feng......I found my tape today that I taped "Dancing with the Stars" just so I could see the trailer premiere......and it was amazing...the trailer was so much better than the movie....and it seemed like Soa Feng was going to be such a great/big part in the movie, and I'm still sitting here trying to figure that one out......

speaking of the trailer and dancing with the stars...remember how excited we all were...I couldn't even sleep that night for wanting to read everyone's comments...here and at KTTC......gosh, that seems like another life, another time. Pre-AWE when things were still happy and optomistic..the air was filled with electricity those days and weeks following the premiere of the trailer...and everything came crashing down on May 19 when the movie was shown in it's entirety at the World Premier at Disneyland..and we started getting the reports about how the movie all panned out. Even If I was a Willabether...I can't imagine being happy with how things turned out for Liz and Will......there's no satisfaction in that.

And I can't even discuss the curse, cuz it never has, never will make any sense...it's too contradictory.....

I remember reading the script and looking forward to the sword fight between Will and Jack. Too bad.

Yeah, Sao Feng was such a bad-ass. He really was a pirate in the true sense of the word. And even though he really had no redeeming qualities I wanted him to live. I wanted him to have a big part, but it seemed that Chow Yun Fat (or is it Yun Fat Chow?) was wasted. He had a cool bathhouse scene and his scene with Keira is disturbingly evil and full of tension, but then all of a sudden that was it. It seemed like his only purpose was to provide a way for Will to doublecross (seemingly doublecross) everyone else. The betrayals were a little too much, imo and the critics dissed the movie because they had a hard time keeping track of the betrayals.

So as far as I understand it as far as plot goes.

Will, Liz, Gibbs, and crew led by Barbossa have been at sea for a while now, probably having learned from Tia Dalma (whom they foolishly take with them) that Sao Feng has charts that will get them into the Locker to save Jack. Naturally they have to sneak into Sao's hangout. From what I gathered, Will had already gone there and had been made a prisoner. Liz and Barbossa were going to go next and confront Sao openly while Pintel, Ragetti, Marty, and Gibbs, and Cotton stayed in the shadows should a confrontation arise. Sao is an arrogant jerk we love to hate that has Will pop out of a hot tub. So they all fight and get the charts.
Betrayal #1: Will makes a deal with Sao that he will turn the crew over to him. I don't really get this because does he trade the crew in exchange for the charts? I know Will wants the Pearl, but Sao doesn't have it, so this is a kind of gray area to me.

Betrayal #2: Sao plans to doublcross Will, keep the ships for himself, and turn Jack over to Beckett once he's rescued in order to stay in the EITC's good graces and be left alone. We don't know that yet, though.

So everyone has the charts and goes over the waterfall to get into the Locker. They meet up with Jack, tension rises, and they get back without much of a sweat besides the fact they learn Liz's dad was killed. More touches of The Odyssey for you literature fans out there.

Betrayal #3: Once Will's betrayal is made public, Jack is turned over to Beckett, Liz goes with Sao Feng, and Will...I kind of lost track of where Will was at exactly this point in time. Only seen it once, remember. Jack has decided by now that he never wants to die again and is going to stab the heart. He makes a deal with Beckett that he will lead him to Shipwreck Cove and turn the pirates over to him. In exchange, Jack, the Pearl, and his crew will go free.

Betrayal #4: This is an extension of a huge betrayal that happened in DMC. Sao Feng is dead and Liz is made captain of his ship. She runs into Norrington and Bootstrap and annoys Norrington about his betrayal. Norrington frees her, gives her the best kiss ever, and dies. So Betrayal 4 is compensated.

Somewhere in all of this, Jack gets back to the ship and throws Will into the brig for his treachery. Will gets out and they decide that Jack will stab the heart, thereby freeing Bootstrap and leaving Will free to stay with Liz. Will goes overboard and discusses his feelings for Jack. "How I hate him."

Betrayal #5: Will winds up with Beckett and Davy and really brings the betrayals to a whole new level. He tells them Barbossa and the pirates have Calypso and he can get her to them.

At the Brethren Court, the rest of our heroes are reunited and Liz is made pirate king. Cool beans. Parlay is really cool and I don't consider this a betrayal because the trio has planned this out. Jack is exchanged for Will and put in the brig of the Flying Dutchman. Will and Liz leave to plan and execute a battle.

Betrayal #6: Somehow, Davy and Calypso have a reunion and she says she will get revenge on the pirates for imprisoning her in her human body. However, once she is getting released, she decides to turn her wrath on Davy himself and starts the storm and whirlpool. Hey, she's a sea goddess, so she can do whatever she wants.

The big battle ensues and life sucks for just about everyone except for Will and Liz who decide to get married in the midst of a battle. Jack, meanwhile, is busy fighting Davy for the chest. Our trio wind up on the Dutchman and just as Jack finally has the heart, Davy ups the ante and stabs Will...hard....a lot. As Will is about to die, Jack makes him stab the heart and pulls Liz to safety. Will is made captain of the Flying Dutchman, gets a new bandana, and his dad cuts his heart out for him. Don't know why the heart has to be out of the person for him/her to be captain, but hey.

So...Liz is egged on by the rest of the pirates to go and lose her virginity and Will says he won't hold her to any promises, meaning if she wants to go fool around, he'll understand. She decides to be faithful to him, however, and goes and does whatever for 10 years, coming back with Junior to meet Will upon his return.

Jack meets up with his whores and may or may not have slept with them before deciding they can have a ride on the Pearl. Lo and behold, the Pearl is gone with Gibbs getting frisky with his bear. Gibbs and Jack part ways and Jack gets in a dingy with a chunk of Barbossa's map to beat him to the Fountain of Youth...which I'm hoping doesn't exist so he can go and have adventures with Will and Liz again.

So, do I have the plot right? Have I left out anything? It's really confusing and I know there are parts I've probably left out.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Yeah, Sao Feng was such a bad-ass. He really was a pirate in the true sense of the word. And even though he really had no redeeming qualities I wanted him to live. I wanted him to have a big part, but it seemed that Chow Yun Fat (or is it Yun Fat Chow?) was wasted. He had a cool bathhouse scene and his scene with Keira is disturbingly evil and full of tension, but then all of a sudden that was it. It seemed like his only purpose was to provide a way for Will to doublecross (seemingly doublecross) everyone else. The betrayals were a little too much, imo and the critics dissed the movie because they had a hard time keeping track of the betrayals.

So as far as I understand it as far as plot goes.

Will, Liz, Gibbs, and crew led by Barbossa have been at sea for a while now, probably having learned from Tia Dalma (whom they foolishly take with them) that Sao Feng has charts that will get them into the Locker to save Jack. Naturally they have to sneak into Sao's hangout. From what I gathered, Will had already gone there and had been made a prisoner. Liz and Barbossa were going to go next and confront Sao openly while Pintel, Ragetti, Marty, and Gibbs, and Cotton stayed in the shadows should a confrontation arise. Sao is an arrogant jerk we love to hate that has Will pop out of a hot tub. So they all fight and get the charts.
Betrayal #1: Will makes a deal with Sao that he will turn the crew over to him. I don't really get this because does he trade the crew in exchange for the charts? I know Will wants the Pearl, but Sao doesn't have it, so this is a kind of gray area to me.

Betrayal #2: Sao plans to doublcross Will, keep the ships for himself, and turn Jack over to Beckett once he's rescued in order to stay in the EITC's good graces and be left alone. We don't know that yet, though.

So everyone has the charts and goes over the waterfall to get into the Locker. They meet up with Jack, tension rises, and they get back without much of a sweat besides the fact they learn Liz's dad was killed. More touches of The Odyssey for you literature fans out there.

Betrayal #3: Once Will's betrayal is made public, Jack is turned over to Beckett, Liz goes with Sao Feng, and Will...I kind of lost track of where Will was at exactly this point in time. Only seen it once, remember. Jack has decided by now that he never wants to die again and is going to stab the heart. He makes a deal with Beckett that he will lead him to Shipwreck Cove and turn the pirates over to him. In exchange, Jack, the Pearl, and his crew will go free.

Betrayal #4: This is an extension of a huge betrayal that happened in DMC. Sao Feng is dead and Liz is made captain of his ship. She runs into Norrington and Bootstrap and annoys Norrington about his betrayal. Norrington frees her, gives her the best kiss ever, and dies. So Betrayal 4 is compensated.

Somewhere in all of this, Jack gets back to the ship and throws Will into the brig for his treachery. Will gets out and they decide that Jack will stab the heart, thereby freeing Bootstrap and leaving Will free to stay with Liz. Will goes overboard and discusses his feelings for Jack. "How I hate him."

Betrayal #5: Will winds up with Beckett and Davy and really brings the betrayals to a whole new level. He tells them Barbossa and the pirates have Calypso and he can get her to them.

At the Brethren Court, the rest of our heroes are reunited and Liz is made pirate king. Cool beans. Parlay is really cool and I don't consider this a betrayal because the trio has planned this out. Jack is exchanged for Will and put in the brig of the Flying Dutchman. Will and Liz leave to plan and execute a battle.

Betrayal #6: Somehow, Davy and Calypso have a reunion and she says she will get revenge on the pirates for imprisoning her in her human body. However, once she is getting released, she decides to turn her wrath on Davy himself and starts the storm and whirlpool. Hey, she's a sea goddess, so she can do whatever she wants.

The big battle ensues and life sucks for just about everyone except for Will and Liz who decide to get married in the midst of a battle. Jack, meanwhile, is busy fighting Davy for the chest. Our trio wind up on the Dutchman and just as Jack finally has the heart, Davy ups the ante and stabs Will...hard....a lot. As Will is about to die, Jack makes him stab the heart and pulls Liz to safety. Will is made captain of the Flying Dutchman, gets a new bandana, and his dad cuts his heart out for him. Don't know why the heart has to be out of the person for him/her to be captain, but hey.

So...Liz is egged on by the rest of the pirates to go and lose her virginity and Will says he won't hold her to any promises, meaning if she wants to go fool around, he'll understand. She decides to be faithful to him, however, and goes and does whatever for 10 years, coming back with Junior to meet Will upon his return.

Jack meets up with his whores and may or may not have slept with them before deciding they can have a ride on the Pearl. Lo and behold, the Pearl is gone with Gibbs getting frisky with his bear. Gibbs and Jack part ways and Jack gets in a dingy with a chunk of Barbossa's map to beat him to the Fountain of Youth...which I'm hoping doesn't exist so he can go and have adventures with Will and Liz again.

So, do I have the plot right? Have I left out anything? It's really confusing and I know there are parts I've probably left out.

thanks Willo..yep, that about sums it up...silly isn't.....seeing it written out this way confirms it even more...AWE was a bust!

hehehe... i made a much more bitter summary at one point... yours was awfully nice.

for betrayal 1, i believe the deal is actually that Will bargains to turn Jack over to Sao as soon as he has retrieved him from DJL, with provision for Will to take possession of the pearl. So it's a bargain based on Sao wanting personal revenge on Jack, and being willing to help Will bring him back in order to have it. Plus, Sao is already plotting to keep the pearl at this point, once it's back. Sao's charts are necessary for getting both things back. what doesn't come across in the film, but was hinted at in the script, is that Will and Sao made their bargain much earlier, when Will was caught by Sao.

It's hinted at in the film too. Sao says something about how the only way pirates can make a profit is by betraying other pirates...then he looks at Will, who sort of responds to that statement. Just thought I'd point that out.

I could do the plot summary if you want.

Lol, I didn't think I left that much out, did I? Sao and Jack...that could have been another fun backstory to go into. Just what did Jack do to piss Sao off so much? I mean, besides being Jack. Sao's an interesting guy. Shame he got blown away after all of his 15 minutes onscreen.

yeah, i think that may have been some kind of funny accident. like, Ted is sitting there writing away...

Ted: (scribble, scribble, scribble... mumbling to self) Yes, and then Sao will come towards her with wicked intentions...

Terry: (yelling from another room) Ted! Orlando is on the phone again... wants to know if you added in any more lines for him...

Ted: (stands up, annoyed) Oh bother. (leaves room)

Terry: (enters room) Hello, what's this? (Sits down at desk, reads what Ted has written) Oh my! (continues reading) Oh dear God! This is DISNEY, Ted! One more line and we would have a rape case on our hands... (quickly scribbles a new line, then reads what he's written) "Suddenly, a canonball comes through the wall and kills Sao outright." (smiles) Phew! Catastrophe averted.

Later that night... a heated argument is afoot in the office.

Ted: She could take him!

Terry: You are never going to convince me that Elizabeth could take a 200 pound Chinese man who is armed and trained to fight. You're pushing credibility here.

Ted: (mumbling angrily) And you weren't pushing it with the magically-growing Calypso crab-cake fiasco?

Terry: What was that?

Ted: Nothing.

Terry: I'm sorry Ted. You have to let Sao go.

Ted: But it screws up the whole plot! It ruins his character's arc!

Terry: Arc, schmark. There was no other way to save Elizabeth. You wrote yourself into a corner, now you need to deal with the consequences. (Ted pouts). I'm sure the fans will understand.

ha ha ha! You have to continue those.

hehehe... only if you join me! we can explain all the problems in AWE as problems between the writers, directors, and actors. maybe it will make us feel better.

Ted is sitting happily in the office, writing. Terry calls in from the other room.

Terry: Ted! Your mother is on the phone. She wants to know why Orlando keeps calling her.

Ted: Oh bother. (leaves room.)

Terry enters, spies the manuscript on Ted's desk. Snickers. Sits down, flips on the TV to a telenovella, in which someone is dying dramatically. Watches entranced for a few minutes.

Terry: I'm inspired! (begins writing furiously. Ted re-enters and surveys the scene.)

Ted: Hey! I thought we agreed I would write the scene where James and Elizabeth run away together!

Terry: I just had this brilliant idea... (Ted snatches up the page and reads.)

Ted: What?! YOU JUST KILLED JAMES!

Terry: I know! Isn't it tragically beautiful?

Ted: You CANNOT keep killing all the best characters, Terry! We have contracts with these actors. We have fans that are looking forward to a triumphant film 3.

Terry: This is our chance, Ted, to have a real tear-jerk moment!

Ted: Have you been watching telenovellas again?

Terry: Okay, listen, I'll make you a deal. You let me kill off James, and I'll let you write in a love-scene for Elizabeth and a character of your choice.

Ted: (tempted) Ooooo... I'm intrigued. Any character?

Terry: Yes. Except because it's disney, it has to be the young male lead, and she has to be married to him. Deal?

Ted rolls his eyes.

Tee hee. I feel naughty doing this. Why start at AWE? Let's explore the writer's ideas about DMC.

Is there one who is crazier than the other?

(Ted is sitting alone in the writing room, biting his pencil. He seems frustrated. Suddenly, Terry bursts through the door.)

Terry: The movie's saved!

Ted: I didn't know it was ever in danger.

Terry: That's okay. I didn't expect you to. See, I was walking down the street, and this lady just all of a sudden starts chasing me.

Ted: Sounds like a normal day for you.

Terry: Yeah, well, she had an empty bottle with her.

Ted: Like a baby bottle?

Terry: Like a rum bottle. She asked how we could have possibly passed up writing Shrek 2 and she chased me around and hit me on the head with it.

Ted: That explains that. (he points to a nice trail of blood down the side of Terry's head) You may want to get that checked out.

Terry: No, it's nothing. But I've decided: Elizabeth is going to hit Norrington over the head with a bottle.

Ted: But aren't they on the same side?

Terry: Yeah, but we discussed Elizabeth was really the best pirate of them all, didn't we?

Ted: Yes but, wow, you're really bleeding.

Terry: So what she's going to do is turn on him to HELP him. Make sense? (Ted gives him blank look) It will foreshadow what Keira wanted us to do in the first place.

Ted: You mean that idea about her character kissing Johnny's character? He doesn't like romantic scenes with her. She's a little kid to him.

Terry: It won't be romantic. No one will find it romantic, not even sexy. She's going to kill him.

Ted: Zuh? Again, they're on the same side.

Terry: No. She'll kiss him and kill him. (taps his head) It's all up here.

Ted: No, it all looks like it's making a puddle on the floor. I don't know...if we do that, some really screwed up people will start "shipping" them (shudders at the term) and then other people will want to know how she could do that to Will and it's going to cause a big rift.

Terry: This coming from the man who cried when they cut out our peas in a pod scene.

Ted: You...(huffs) Fine! I'll write the best kiss of death scene known to man.

Terry: You do that. I'm going to the doctor now.

hehehehe.... this is hilarious. in a sort of weird way. i dont know why t and t strike me as sit com characters. hahahahaha. that's brilliant willo.

Terry is sitting at his desk, bored. Ted walks in.

Terry: Ted, do you ever feel like you've hit your stride and passed yourself all at the same time?

Ted: Um, hello. Aladdin was pretty much the tippy top for us, pal. We've been downhill ever since.

Terry: I mean, sitting in the theatre when Jack and Elizabeth kissed... how will we ever beat that?

Ted: It was pretty intense. Nicole Kidman held my hand. I haven't washed it since.

Terry: Don't you feel like we should pull something really dramatic for film 3?

Ted: What about Jack and Elizabeth sleeping together isn't dramatic?

Terry: Oh come on. I'm thinking bigger than that.

Ted: You can't get much bigger than that. In one day, we'll change the face of disney forever.

Terry: Come on Ted! I'm thinking... we kill off a main character.

Ted: (yawns) Groundbreaking.

Terry: And then bring him back to life!

Ted: (rolls eyes) Okay, good, then we can join the ranks of every disney film ever written. including the one we just finished.

Terry: It'll be so crazy... we'll totally psych them all out...

Ted: Um, Terry, we already killed off Jack.

Terry: I know. So let's kill off Will. We've got to keep his character interesting.



PART TWO:

Terry comes in, spitting mad.

Ted: You're blowing smoke out of your ears again. Did Gore ask for another rewrite?

Terry: If that skinny british princess complains one more time about her character's lack of scenes with Jack...

Ted: Calm down, Terry. She's oscar hungry. You win one, suddenly all you want is one more.

Terry: She's going to ruin the honeymoon scene. She hardly looks at Orlando. (puts his head in his hands) I can't do this anymore. I can't create chemistry!

Ted: (massages Ted's shoulders) I know, I know. (Terry begins to sob) You know what might make you feel better? Why don't you get out that scene you wrote when you were really mad at Keira before? We could have Gore add it back in, if you want.

Terry: (smiling through his tears) Really? You'd do that for me?

Ted: I know you're upset. If turning Keira's beloved character into a single mom will provide you with some much needed revenge, then go for it.

Terry: Oh goody! Can we call costumes and sneak in your mom's old mu mu for her to wear in the scene???

Oh come on. The film wasn't that bad. And the writers are not remotely like that, thanks very much. I know it's your way of trying to justify what you feel were vast plot holes because Elizabeth didn't have sex with Jack and Elizabeth didn't have Jack Jr. If it had been Jack returning after ten years to his wife and son you'd have loved it. Admit it and move on.

About Jack and Elizabeth: I realize this is a film, I realize it's a fantasy setting. However, how we view films often portrays what and how we feel about things in RL. The fact that so many people find this murder excuseable makes me wonder about what all you might be willing to let slide for "love". It's a valid question and one I think everyone should look into. What darkside do you tap into to enjoy it.

Because think about it -- even if we say that Jack and Elizabeth had a fine, non-abusive relationship before he dies, it does not change the facts of what Elizabeth did. If we remove Will from the equation and assume that Elizabeth only killed Jack because she was so in love with him it frightened her and she hd to get rid of him, that isn't really very healthy either, is it?

Again, I'll use the battered woman scenario. A man and woman are together. They get along fairly well, they are attractive together, and anyone looking at them might think they have great chemistry together. Under all that though is a darker current, which finally comes to a head when the man realizes he loves the woman so much that he can't deal with it. So he beats her badly. She is nearly destroyed physically. The months of recovery are hellish and pain-filled. The mental anguish of not being able to trust anyone ever again consumes her, as does a sort of guilt because obviously she must have brought this on herself. The depression is so bad that she is nearly driven mad by it. It takes years to recover.

Would you ever send her back to that man because he did it out of love?

No.

Now think about Jack. Yes, he was impressed with Elizabeth's action. He teases her, and he lets her go, because he needs to deal with his own situation now. He doesn't have time to hate her or even be angry. He has his own survival to deal with. Unfortunately, just as he is freed, he faces death.

And it's not pretty. Lots of pointy teeth. I imagine that his death probably hurt. It probably hurt a lot. Assuming he survived the teeth, his torn and battered body would have fallen into the stomach of the Kraken, which assuming it has a fairly normal biology, Jack would have been burned alive by the acid in the stomach. There's also a chance he would have suffocated, which is also rather painful.

Then he wakes up in DJL. He has his ship, but he is stranded alone in a desert. No food, no water. Endless hot sun beating down on him, little to no shade, barely a breeze. No relief. Then the facets of his personality come out. Little by little he sees the best, and the worst of himself, without anyone else to keep him company. Days, weeks, probably months of torture, fragmenting more and more until Jack's very sanity, always somewhat questionable to begin with, is in terrible danger.

He is rescued, but not without cost. He has lost much of himself in DJL, he is torn apart --- ALL of this is because of Elizabeth. We don't know what Jack intended to do, because Elizabeth stole the choice from him. So Elizabeth is responsible not only for his physical death, but for the torture he was put through, literally body and soul -- and somehow this is supposed to be proof of her love for him? This is a good thing, and it's good that she wants him back?

Why is it such a plot hole that Jack wants to get as far from Elizabeth as possible? She HURT him beyond imagining. She very nearly destroyed him. She shouldn't have Jack, because she could not treat him properly.

With Will, it's a bit different. She does anything for him. He does nearly anything for her. It's still unhealthy, but Will is able to balance her out, make her see her good side, and is able to give her a reason to fight that shadow in her.

Sorry, long discussion. I know you all feel very strongly about J/E, but it still makes me curious that when you break down all of Jack's suffering because of Lizzie, why you'd want him to be with her.



So explain. Yes, it's fictional, but as I said, how we view works of fiction and what we find acceptable or unacceptable are a reflection of who we are on the inside.

um, i think several of us have made the comment that in awe, both jack and elizabeth change and i don't really care who they end up with by the end of the film. after dmc, i really wanted them to get together. after seeing 10 minutes of awe? i didn't care, i just wanted the film to end. luckily, we send the murderous wench to marry Will, which you regard as perfectly fine, despite her penchant to murder and torture of people she is close to.

yep, you are right, the fact that i like jack and lizzie probably means i am messed up in the head, S and M, like abusive relationships, want Jack to suffer, etc. etc. etc. that's getting pretty old already. the majority of this forum was obsessed with sparrabeth- you think we're all crazy about torture and abuse and punishment or something? come on. we've all made hundreds of pages of arguments as to why we enjoy sparrabeth, and i'm getting sick of trying to explain it to you when ultimately, who you like is a matter of personality. so stop attacking our personalities just because you dont like the same couple we do.
i can take a stab at why your personal experience would lead you to reject JL and go for the more traditionally romantic pairing. If you want me to go into personal detail about this topic, pm me, and i'd be happy to explain my penchant for sparrabeth according to my own life experience.

all of the characters are dangerous. all of the characters have betrayed another. Liz put Will through tons of psychological torment. Will lied to Liz and almost got her raped by Sao. Willo already elaborated on the Tia/DJ mess. they are all pirates... bad people... why would you want any of them to be with any of them??? because its a MOVIE and i'm paying 7.50 to be entertained, not given a realistic look at historical piracy or the like.

and last of all, Elizabeth didn't condemn Jack to death. Davy Jones did. Jack made a bargain, it was Jack's choice all along. It was going to catch up with him at some point. He had to face his decisions. What, was he going to escape with them and sit on land the rest of his life? Or for 10 years until Davy Jones came and finished him off? No. The kraken was going to get him, one way or another. Jack bargained with Jones to get the Pearl, and that was the consequence. So yeah, Elizabeth had a hand in it happening when it did, but it wasn't like she just randomly decided he had to die.

Surreal, don't take too much offense to Kate's and my poking fun at T&T. While I think she's more bitter than I am about AWE, mine is just poking fun at the writing process. A lot of disturbing things happen in POTC and being a writer myself, people look at you differently if you're a wholesome, sane person who writes about very dark things. It's also funny where people get their ideas. What from their personal lives can they use for inspiration for some of the outlandish things that happen in these movies? So I for one am not really criticizing them. I'm having fun with them. They wrote a series I enjoy and I think they're good writers. I think if the things Kate and I "sketched" was on a thread like "The Adventures of T&T" or something, it would be seen as much more in the spirit of fun and good-natured ribbing.

t and t have written ALL of my favorite films.. aladdin, mask of zorro, etc... i think they are BRILLIANT, i just also enjoy imagining their writing process. and i dont really like what they did with awe, but i feel perfectly okay about having that opinion, because as writers i respect them.