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Sorry for the plagerism Iheartpocky but i'm investigating your theory:

Ok he said young young people like willabeth because it's cute ect.
Old people like sparrabeth because... hmm... i can't remember that's not me being bias I really can't remember...

So... I want to know if your willabeth or sparrabeth and the main reason you like your chosen duo and your age.

I like Willabeth because they are cute. I am 14.

heh heh

okay

oh yeah you said he.

I is a she lol

oops! that's embarassing!

Young people don't necessarily like Willabeth. I'm full Sparrabeth and I am the same age as you, miss_swann. I just don't see the cuteness in Willabeth. It's more of a matter of taste, I think.

hehe what i mean is usually willabethers are like "omg! they are soo cute! they were always meant to be together!" idk not necessarily like that but they always seem young to me lol cause cause.. it's like fairytale romances. idk..

bah whatever. it reminds me of high school musical. gushing about gabrielle and whatshisface.

Gabriella and Troy mate.. i was once an HSM fan.. *shivers* Disney drove me away by playing it over and over and over and over again on Disney Channel. and I'm opposed to their pair-up, i like zac better with me- oops. just kidding.

Anyway, I like Sparrabeth better, and I'm the same age as you... I think it's just the sexiest thing i've ever seen, and sometimes cuteness is worn-out or something like that.. does that make any sense?

im 13 1/2 and Sparrabeth rocks my world. i just think they look so...right together.

yep.. so they do.. they look so hott and sexy together too.. lol.. CHEMISTRY 101, mates..

I'm 12- (don't tell rogue) and I love Willabeth. I love especially how he literally gave her his heart...

I'm 14 mates and I'm HARD CORE Sparrabeth...

I've arrived at the definite conclusion that it's a matter of taste.

I've noticed people who like Willabeth like classical and cute couples whose love is sweet and pure. I've also noticed (I'm not sure if I'm right I'm just talking about th WE shippers I know personally) that they are much more level-headed, reasonable and gentle than the JE shippers. Every WE shipper I've met has described the couple as either "lovable", "cute", "passionate" and "pure"

Now not meaning this as an insult to JE shippers (it's actually a comliment IMO) cause I'm one myself. I think we're more wacky oddballs you know?? At least I am
I find myself to be wierd at times...and most JE shippers love the adventure, excitement, forbideness, chemistrey and curiosity. I think that has to say something about our personality aye?


So it's a definite matter of taste.

Originally posted by tee_pirategirl
I'm 14 mates and I'm HARD CORE Sparrabeth...

I've arrived at the definite conclusion that it's a matter of taste.

I've noticed people who like Willabeth like classical and cute couples whose love is sweet and pure. I've also noticed (I'm not sure if I'm right I'm just talking about th WE shippers I know personally) that they are much more level-headed, reasonable and gentle than the JE shippers. Every WE shipper I've met has described the couple as either "lovable", "cute", "passionate" and "pure"

Now not meaning this as an insult to JE shippers (it's actually a comliment IMO) cause I'm one myself. I think we're more wacky oddballs you know?? At least I am
I find myself to be wierd at times...and most JE shippers love the adventure, excitement, forbideness, chemistrey and curiosity. I think that has to say something about our personality aye?


So it's a definite matter of taste.

I'm also 14.
I totally agree with you- a matter of personality and taste.

I'm 16 and Sparrabeth floats my boat. I was "okay" with Willabeth in POTC 1 (even though I later noticed that all the sparrabethy scenes were my favorites!), but once I saw the DMC trailer, I was totally hooked. They just "fit" in my mind - they challenge eachother and it keeps it interesting. Jack is everything Lizzie has dreamed about as a child, he can guide her into freedom, he can teach her how to spread her wings and fly (*melts into puddle*)

14 sparrabeth and i totally agree with evry one else (sparrabeth everyone else ).

thanks 4 typing it, saves me doin it. lol

OK so no body on here is actually old then? AH!!!!!!! RAIN!!!!!!!!! Window open!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HAHA!! LOL you're funny.

Well we have some members that are older than us but no one here is OLD

It really depends on your view of old...

considering how long i've been with KMC, im ANCIENT! lol...and i'm only 16!....and i dont get the 'willabeth' n 'sparrabeth' stuff...i'll take a stab n assume its puttin jack or will with Liz....personally i'd prefer Jack be with ME but thats all opinion... hehe

HEHE! Yes you see Willabeth is: Will+Elizabeth

Sparrabeth: Sparrow+Elizabeth

I beg to differ! Jack should ne with ME...well ok! I'm not gonna start this again cause next thing you know we'll all be fighting over him again but I get what u mean.

yeah well...you can 'ne' with him LOL! and i'll BE with him savvy?

LOL!!! HEHE!! Oh no another typo on my part sorry about that but I reckon u knew what I meant...

It's dangerous to be as good looking as he is cause next thing u know u have fan girls chasing u and fighting over ya

lol...yeah and the worst thing is...hes old enough to be my DAD! ... wait...how old is he? i used to keep track buuttt....i......forgot?....

He's 44 luv, younger than my dad so I guess I'm ok...sorta, kinda...

44 which makes him exactly the same age as my dad, when's his b-day?

LOL....yeah my dads older but still...ya KNOW what im sayin...

anyone know when his b-day is simply out of working out if he's OLDER than my dead, now that would be weird.

p.s he he tee your post wasn't there and then we must have posted saying the same thing at the same time, that's cool!

Yeah we posted at the same time didn't we?

His birthday is the 9th of June.(1963)

P.s: Yeah PsychoFreeak I know EXACTLY what u mean. He's old enough to be my dad so...it's kinda freaky

eh i'll learn to deal with it, its not like he knows me

Yeah that's what I think to myself to.

Plus it's not like I wanna date him or anything...I just love him and his work and his whole attitude about everything. Now if I was older...I would be stealing him from Vanessa but right now...I'm alowed to love him to death right?

LOL...well no, you arent ONLY I CAN!!! BAHAHAH! naw rules, Johnny/Jack = MIIINNNEEE!!!! evillaugh

Hehe! There are about three dozen Johnny Depp fans on this forum(who aren't online now) that would disagree with that.

What would be funny is if we got all the johnny fans on this forum into one room, with johnny. And see how many of them got over come with shyness and sit and giggle and call each other by their forum names. And how many would be loud and drool on his shoes.

p.s he's 9 days older than my dad! lol!

Originally posted by tee_pirategirl
I'm 14 mates and I'm HARD CORE Sparrabeth...

I've arrived at the definite conclusion that it's a matter of taste.

I've noticed people who like Willabeth like classical and cute couples whose love is sweet and pure. I've also noticed (I'm not sure if I'm right I'm just talking about th WE shippers I know personally) that they are much more level-headed, reasonable and gentle than the JE shippers. Every WE shipper I've met has described the couple as either "lovable", "cute", "passionate" and "pure"

Now not meaning this as an insult to JE shippers (it's actually a comliment IMO) cause I'm one myself. I think we're more wacky oddballs you know?? At least I am
I find myself to be wierd at times...and most JE shippers love the adventure, excitement, forbideness, chemistrey and curiosity. I think that has to say something about our personality aye?


So it's a definite matter of taste.

I disagree... I'm a willabether all the way, and I'm always the one who my friends are telling to shut up, or calm down, or stop that, or don't do it!!, or Amanda, that's dangerous, or FOR THE LAST TIME I GET IT!!!! YOU HAVE A JAR OF DIRT!!!!...

I like willabeth because they'll last together, and what they have is special. I hate sparrabeth, because Jack is totally the opposite of Liz, and Will deserves Liz sooo much more. (Don't hurt me!!)

I'm willabeth and I know i'm weird and an oddball and obsessive and I jump around way too much and play in the junior school playground on the monkey bars and talk about pirates, draw pirates, make stories about pirates, make origami boats and sail them in the puddles after it's been raining and if it hasn't rained for a while, then I simply create a maelstrom by flushing a toilet. Now if that tells level headed then I wash my hands of this weirdness. Although I'm very very quiet apparently, I hadn't noticed but I got my school report today and all the teachers said that. word.

I'm also not resonable I argue with my brother and big sister all the time! Although I'm gentle because I don't ever argue with my little sister.

I know!! My teachers always say I'm quiet and stuff... exept for Mr. McCourt, but that's because I'm always talking to the boy next to me... But reallly My friends have to duck tape my mouth shut!!! At sleepover parties, I'm always one of the ones keeping everyone else up, and my parents are always screaming at my to keep my voice down!!

Yeah! How do adults get such a wrong impression? I mean why do teachers get to write about us? What do they know? I mean drama sees me for 40 mins a week! Well we have assembly which cuts our lesson short so it's more like 25mins, how can she write an A4 peice of paper about me?

Will + Lizzie = WE...or....EWWWWW

lol, sorry. Couldn't help it.

Its been so long since I've last been on this forum, I guess I thought there was nothing left for me here seeing as I would just constantly cuss Will to hell. And T&T, and Jerry, and practically anyone who supports/made EW possible.

Its funny cause all the WE fans came out when AWE hit, other than some strongly dedicated fans. Now, no one take offence kay? Im too old and tierd to fight, AWE wounded me so bad I almost gave up faith in movies.

Oh, I dont know anymore, Im just rambling.

Im turning 14 and I love J/E to death. I rele agree that its about taste. People tend to think just cause your younge you want gushie, over the top, puppy dog love.

fear
sick
stretcher

And thats what alot of J/E shippers percieve WE to be. I guess its just so hard to see the other persons point since we're all so pasionate about our shipppers, personally, its really hard not to cuss WE to oblivion but im tryin

ermm

Its funny cause the other day my sis was saying how romatic that fight scene was when WE got married. I think i blacked out thinking about it, not in the good way. Its was wierd realizing it, I couldnt stop her from thinking that, and I finally understood why I actually dont like WE. Its not Will's fault, I just dont like Orli, if Johnny Depp was Will I'd lean towards him. I guess its just that air about him, like he's in charge. I just like pirates more than blacksmiths.

I remember you!

Originally posted by potcfan2003
I disagree... I'm a willabether all the way, and I'm always the one who my friends are telling to shut up, or calm down, or stop that, or don't do it!!, or Amanda, that's dangerous, or FOR THE LAST TIME I GET IT!!!! YOU HAVE A JAR OF DIRT!!!!...

I like willabeth because they'll last together, and what they have is special. I hate sparrabeth, because Jack is totally the opposite of Liz, and Will deserves Liz sooo much more. (Don't hurt me!!)

I agree in a sense that it's not a matter of personality. I'm very shy, and I can sometimes be crazy and weird, but I'm usually very calm, and I'm 100% Sparrabeth.

However, I disagree with this: "I hate sparrabeth, because Jack is totally the opposite of Liz"
What?! Remember peas in a pod? The dialogue from the curiosity scene? The ending of DMC, proving they were both right? They both love freedom, they both love the sea and can act on selfish impulse, and just like Elizabeth's honesty, Jack does have an honest streak in him. Will is more opposite Liz than Jack is.
"Will deserves Liz sooo much more." But does Liz deserve Will? No. She has had strong feelings for other men *coughjackcough* and is willing to betray to get what she wants. Will is honest and noble. He's too good for someone like that, even though I personally am not a William fan.

well no elizabeth doesn't deserve will cause I do, not orlando, but will.

Anyway, i was going to make a really good point and then i wrote that... poo! It was a good point............................................................................................................................. oh yeah if Elizabeth and Jack are so similar and Will and Elizabeth are opposite then the saying "opposites attract" is true. (But if Elizabeth and Jack are opposites then woop, who cares they said it and nobody's really sure who they are.)

And yes I am bias.

Originally posted by miss_swann
well no elizabeth doesn't deserve will cause I do, not orlando, but will.

Anyway, i was going to make a really good point and then i wrote that... poo! It was a good point............................................................................................................................. oh yeah if Elizabeth and Jack are so similar and Will and Elizabeth are opposite then the saying "opposites attract" is true. (But if Elizabeth and Jack are opposites then woop, who cares they said it and nobody's really sure who they are.)

And yes I am bias.

Jack and Elizabeth have qualities that are similar and different. Similar = love for freedom and such. Different = the lifestyles they lead before they met, etc. They balance each other out, while challenging each other.

Originally posted by Hambah
Young people don't necessarily like Willabeth. I'm full Sparrabeth and I am the same age as you, miss_swann. I just don't see the cuteness in Willabeth. It's more of a matter of taste, I think.


well, i love sparrabeth, and im 13, but i do like willabeth, just i love sparrabeth loads more than willabeth...there lol

lol

How old is old? I'm 22 and I like sparrabeth. Surreal is older than me and she prefers Norribeth with willabeth a close second. Are you including the few but much-respected Norribethers in this theory?

My guess is most people regardless of age prefer willabeth because that's what the established couple always was. Most people don't go so far as to contemplate different pairings. Those who do either go the sparrabeth or norribeth route. This is what I think for the hard-core shippers.

Under 16: willabeth, sparrabeth, norribeth
Under 30: sparrabeth, willabeth, norribeth, but much stronger norribeth feelings
Under 40: probably back to willabeth

Originally posted by willofthewisp
guess is most people regardless of age prefer willabeth
Where are they? They should come on this forum! We need more Willabethers!

Yes, I'm older. I'm over 25 but less than 30, and that's all I'm saying.

I very rarely like canon couples, although Pirates is an exception. My favorite ship is Norribeth. I think out of the three men who were 'candidates', Norrington was the best match for her. Yes, he was stuffy, but I think that Elizabeth could have pummeled that out of him. He's engaging, witty, sarcastic, intelligent, he's travelled plenty, he's brave, good, honorable, etc. Plus he has a bit of a rogue in him as well.

I like Will and Elizabeth together as well. They compliment each other in a way that is astounding. They balance each others flaws out. They give to each other but rarely take. There is hardly anything selfish in the way they treat each other, they would do anything for each other...it's the very definition of what kind of love I'd want to give and receive from my partner in life.

As for Sparrabeth...I enjoyed them in CotBP, and I admit that the island scene is one of my favorites. They are spunky, full of intensity, but none of it really seems to be sincere or deep interest.

Jack seems only interested in Elizabeth for sex, and while Elizabeth is attracted to him, she later uses her body as a lure to trap Jack and then leave him to die. It's that kind of behavior that makes J/E pretty much repulsive to me. I have a hard time justifying any depth of love that Elizabeth may feel when she so willingly abandoned someone to die.

I also enjoy slash pairings too, which are obviously not canon in the least. You should see my poor list for Harry Potter, and you'd be astounded to know the depth to which I despise the canon couples.

i totally agree with you on this, after seeing potc3 multiple times, Norrington IS in fact the best match for Lizzie.

Jack is slightly too wild for her. Film 2, he was just right, but seeing how her character changed in film 3, Norrington would have been perfect.

Originally posted by Surreal_44
Jack seems only interested in Elizabeth for sex,

hystericalhystericalhystericalhysterical I was waiting for someone to say that! *tries to control herself* You actually said the word! hysterical does this mean I'm immature?

(I would have put more smilies in but the system wouldn't let me.)

eh, i wouldn't agree with that about jack... he seems interested in women in general for sex, but that's what makes his attraction to elizabeth special, its not just about sex... its about them being similar, having similar hearts and ways of doing things. both independent, conniving, and obsessed with freedom. (well, elizabeth not so much in film 3, but whatever)

if it were just about sex, i wouldnt have gotten to like it so much. cause obviously, sex doesnt make up a relationship, nor can it keep people together for any long period of time, alone. chemistry is different. it's not just physical, it's mental, emotional, whatever.

alright miss swann, did i make you blush again?

oh by the way, i dont mind advertising here, i have been writing music and there was one song i was really excited to share here, called Pirate Man, so i made a thread and you guys should check it out.

I like Elizabeth with Will and I'm *cough* *cough* *cough* (underage shh!) and I think they are sweet.

Ta dearies, and I'm oh, about 4 decades older the oldest person who's said their age. Very interesting proposal, youngers like jack and elisabeth, cos they's hot--olders like Will & elisabeth becos we're into classics. Ummmmm, okay some truth there, however, here's the sticking point for me--I'm for elisabeth don't much matter in my estimation which one she chooses, will's a "boy" (close to her age) and they'll be great playmates and hopefully grow into themselves and have a good life. There's passion!! Elisabeth's got, in my older's opinion, a better chance to be herself with will, to be "free" with him, becos he's pliable--see grow into. Oh, and by the way, that's power and power is HOT. Imagine having a man who loves you body and soul and will do Anything to ensure your happiness as you live your lives together. Whew!

Now Jack, a Man (who has playfulness as a subset in his personality) will he mentor or control Elisabeth? He mentors, okay; he controls, he "kills" her spirit. Yeah, he can make overtures to her that cause us ALL(ALL the Ladies, not just one age group) to imagine how much fun it would be to be outrageous!! However, nothing says bummer like not being able to be sure of the person that you want to trust completely. Jack's not tamed and I think part of me, even now wants to always have the illusion of freedom and not being tamed, settled.

Here's the one real biggie--Elisabeth betrays Jack--she would have moved heaven and earth to save Will--I wouldn't stand in her way with tanks; she Betrayed Jack. Yes she felt guilty--she wanted to make amends for her betrayal--but she was at that moment a Pi-rate. I wonder how it will work out...maybe you're onto something. Fair winds, before a following sea.

Im 19 and im a sparrabether

For the younger ones (im not being patronising here...but you're younger than me so technically you are the younger ones lol ), there will come a time when you will fall inlove with a nice young man and think that everything will be perfect...

And then someone else comes along with a great smile and stories about himself that you didnt think could be humanly possible... and he flirts with you and makes you feel like you could talk to him all night...

He GETS you.

I've been there and its dangerous...but you have a hell of alot of fun on the ride
Yes, its bad that you could possibly want to think about this handsome rogue whilst you're still with your kind-hearted boyfriend...but believe me, its alot harder to block out the feelings once they enter your system.

This happened to me a few months ago, and im still with my lovely boyfriend...but he just doesnt have that same spark...

All im saying is that sometimes when you have something, you WANT something else...
Elizabeth HAD Will, but she let herself go whilst she was with Jack (hell she even danced around a campfire whilst drinking rum!) ... she let herself be free, and live the pirate life...

For me, Jack set Elizabeth free.
The relationship probably would never have lasted...but it would have been bloody brilliant until it fell apart

Well, I'm quite a bit older than the person that started this thread and probably the oldest that posts on this forum. I am married, I've experienced College, I've had a baby....etc, etc...in other words, I've experienced Life.

I am a Sparrabether.
1) Because I love Johnny Depp/Jack Sparrow and just thought it would be great for his character to grow and develop...
2) I'm a sucker for the "reformed" rogue...the womanizer who is suddendly drawn to one woman....and forgets all others....very sexy and manly
3) Because Jack represents Freedom and Liz longs for Freedom..which I thought was the point of the entire Trilogy....
4) And I am insulted by the fact that some of you think that Jack was only interested in Liz for sex..it's much deeper than that. I agree with everything Kate said.

the reason it didn't work out is because the powers that be decided to forget character development and have everyone go back to right where they started...Liz forgot that she longed for freedom and decided to start "wearing" corsetts again, (and I don't mean literally, I mean figuratively speaking) the symbolism of Jack setting her free from that breathing constraint didn't really mean anything....

She was perfectly content to settle for her sweet little childhood romance instead of tasting adventure and freedom in the arms of the MAN that could have given her all that.....along with love.....

but Whatever....afterall, it's a friggin Disney Movie..I guess I got so caught up in the chemistry that was between jack and liz that I forgot that this was a "children's" movie....blah, blah, blah...

and like I read somewhere else..Johnny wanted to create a character that his kiddies would love to see...and I have to deal with the fact that Johnny didn't want Sparrabeth, as much as many of his fandom did, he didn't.....He was perfectly content with Jack ending up all alone on his dingy....and like someone said...Johnny wouldn't have played Jack Sparrow if he were slated to be the Hollywood Lead Male for romance....Johnny doesn't really get into doing romantic pics....but I was just hoping that just once....but then that would be against his nature, but a female can dream...oh well....

^^^ totally in agreement

dear Lovethemtigers & t. Maria, I am a newbie/older (way older) and I am so totally missing the idea that Elisabeth can only be free when she's with a man--I guess us old 'libbrs" die hard--that girl's gonna do what she's gonna do--hell, high water, will or jack--don't matter. The possibility of her bowing to anything else is ridiculous, don'cha think? My thinking is she has already so stepped outside of society, she culd marry the monkey and no one would blink. As to mar-ri-age--sportin' with Jack, now there's the way to spend a rainy afternoon...week, year...nothing not tasty about it--you would always believe you were the only folks on earth. Will, don't short him ladies, he's growing exponintally into a force to be reckoned with--the make-up kissing after a row with Elisabeth would be oh, maybe a 6 on the ricter scale!! And here's the deal, a man who would do Anything for you--owned body and soul--AND NOT a milktoast cardboard mockup of a man. the scene below in AWE when he queries her about her decision to leave Jack to die in DMC--he was pissed off and even though his voice was low and quiet, he was volcanic in attitude. Elisabeth knew in her heart what the price would be for future solo decision making.

I too adore the "reformed rogue" conceit, we all want to tame that "proud beauty" of a wildman--it's fine when the wild beastie is our beloved house gatito, purring into our shoulder. As women, strong and true, we love the flattery of being the ONLY one who can leash the beast with our perfect love. Sure gets old when they mark their territory and tear up the furniture.

Also, I am a big proponent of the "paint your wagon" don't leave I love you, don't leave I love him--who says we can't go on as three.....Will and Jack, Jack and Will, surely her boys could for her, would for her learn to play nicely together....

^^^Oh I hear what you are saying. I don't believe that Elizabeth needs to be with a man to be free, by no means.

I just think her relationship with Will is more confining then her relationship with Jack would have been...

and although I'm a Sparrabether...I knew it would not end 100% j/e...and I was hoping it wouldn't end 100% w/e.....I was hoping that it would be left open....like Will would set her free so she wouldn't have to wait on that island for 10 years until his return..that perhaps she could go on adventures with dear old jack..and if something developed even deeper between the two, so be it..I just wanted it to be left to the imagination...well, who am I kidding..I wanted it to be j/e..but the "left to the imagination" ending would have been 100 times better than what we got.....

The idea that Jack set only Elizabeth free is also a flawed one. He set everyone in the films free. Norrington, Will, Elizabeth, even Gov. Swann...he freed them from the bindings of society and allowed them the opportunity to be who they always were.

So, by that theory, Jack technically has a lot of lovers. Yummy.

Anyway...texgodiva2s you crack me up. Of course there's the chance for a threesome. Don't you detect that sexual tension between Jack and Will? It's just boiling below the surface....

I love your posts! And you're right, it's not about 'classic' romance.

lovethemtigersI don't mean to sound insulting, but I've also tasted what life is, although I am younger and admittedly am not married and having children. That is just one example of the way to experience it...wish I was as lucky as you. *sigh*

Anyway, now I'm going to sound brutally harsh, but I don't intend to be. Just...don't be insulted because of the way I word this next part, ok? Why would you want to reform Jack? What makes him so attractive to you is his longing for freedom, his excitement, his ability to get out of tight spots...if you have him become reformed, you're just making him into another Will Turner, who by your standards, is dull and boring.

You can't have it both ways. Jack needs his freedom; he can't have that and be a good life partner for anyone.

Also, where did you get the idea that Elizabeth has 'put the corset' back on? Where did you get that? Because she loves Will? I never saw Will treat her as anything other than an equal (yes, he tried to protect her, but he protects everyone he loves). So explain to me where she becomes constrained by society again, because we get no indication of that at all.

Kate:

More bluntness. I am not trying to call you an idiot, ok? So don't get upset.

Of course Jack wanted her for sex and sex alone. He was intrigued by her, but I never saw love. I didn't see the chemistry that would make them work as a pairing either. You say it's not sex that made you interested, that it was all this other stuff, but mental and emotional.

But where is the emotional part of Jack and Elizabeth? Elizabeth gave him up to the Kraken; Jack wanted sex. His one goal with Elizabeth has always been to get her clothes off, whether it's by attempting to get her drunk, telling her that her clothes don't flatter her, or by proposing a fake marriage. There's no emotional depth to Jack and Elizabeth; everything is purely physical, and that would last about, at most, a year, before it fizzled out.

What Will and Elizabeth have is emotional. In CotBP, Elizabeth is frantic when she thinks Will died. She attacks an undead pirate with her bare fists because she is so grief-stricken. When Will did truly die, Jack had to forcibly remove her from his side. She wasn't going to leave him, in fact she screams that she won't leave him (it was so realistic it made my eyes water). She is softer with Will, more physical (she's always touching him, or he with her) in an unconscious way. She lights up when she sees Will, she is always thinking of Will.

Physical intimacy...Will seems to know what he's doing. She looked well-satisfied on the beach (I wonder where his one hand was wandering :evil and Will also seemed quite relaxed and happy.

Mentally, Will knows what he's getting into. The only thing that puzzled and hurt him was that Elizabeth had shut him out of such an important decision. He wasn't even pissed about what she had done; he was upset that she hadn't confided in him. He learns to let that go. He is practically devouring her during her speech to the pirates. He knows what she is, and he loves her even more for it.

Elizabeth also knows and understands Will now. She understands that even with his almost-too-good-to-be-true characteristics, he's still human. He makes mistakes like any other person, he can be jealous and angry, and that makes her love him all the more. They know each others faults, and they DON'T care. They don't need the other person to be 'reformed', they don't need to tame each other or tell the other person that in order to get a 'reward' that they need to change or try to be different.

Total and complete acceptance of each other, and now, of themselves, makes Elizabeth and Will a more complex, rich relationship than most people give them credit for. No, they don't burn your eyes out with hot and heavy chemistry, but they do warm you up from the inside out, which to me is more fulfilling than a few seconds of thrills.

To each his own. I have never been warmed from the inside out watching Will and Elizabeth. And you know what....maybe it's not so much will and elizabeth as it is Orlando Bloom. He's just so bland. Maybe that's my problem.

I just dont' feel a connection between the actors/ no chemistry..and i'm not the only one...even professional movie reviewers say the same thing.

I'm sorry Surreal....I don't even know why we are even still discussing this really...

and I stand by what Kate said....I don't think it was just sex with Jack....he cared for Elizabeth alot more than just sex.....
that's my opinion, and i'm sticking to it.....

If anyone was concerned with sex...it was Elizabeth.......

hystericalhystericalhystericalhystericalhysterical
You all keep saying the word! And yeah I agree it was more Elizabeth *giggles* when she said: "I'm so ready to be married." The way she said it was riddled with innuendo.

lol the word

Yeah. Sometimes I wonder if my parents get what's going on in those scenes in DMC lol

Mine did after my brother shouted "OMG, they're refering to *you know what I mean*"

lol that's funny.

It was embarassing! There was my mum, 2 yr old sister, my grandmother and my sisters boyfriend in the car!

lol I'd be like "What do you know!? Shut up!!"

Hmm.. I should remember that the next time!

But what in Jack's actions show that he cares for Elizabeth? And give me something other than "He returned to the Black Pearl" because I don't think that's him doing something just for her. Also, helping Will stab the heart doesn't count because that was done for Will as much as it was for Elizabeth.

Just give me something to prove that Jack loves Elizabeth. Please?

JACK DOESN'T LOVE ELIZABETH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WILL LOVES ELIZABETH!!!!!!! And the film is riddled with proof for that!

Originally posted by Surreal_44
Just give me something to prove that Jack loves Elizabeth. Please?

1. His compass doesn't work in DMC...
2. he comes back on the black pearl in order to help her and the rest of the crew in DMC, you mentioned that one
3. when she chains him, he doesn't do anything to hurt her (he has a weapon), he only says: pirate
4. he doesn't try to get revenge in AWE, but he does try to get revenge on Barbarossa!!! He's a pirate, he wouldn't have forgiven her, if he hadn't loved her.
5. when she's in trouble he always helps her (example: parachute scene)
6. the way he looks at her in DMC, the way his eyes change when Beckett mentions her in AWE, ... just look at him

1. His compass not working in DMC is not clearly explained until you listen to the commentary or read stuff on-line. I could certainly agree Elizabeth played a part in it, but according to film canon he had more things on his mind, like what he wanted to do with the heart: To stab or not stab, that is the question.

2. He comes back to the Pearl because it is the right thing to do...period. That doesn't prove love, especially since it involves saving others. (Remember Elizabeth totally ignoring crewmembers dying while she WAITED for Will to free himself, even though he told her to shoot. That's love. )

3. Jack has always, always let people go their own way. It is all about what people do and the choices they make. "They done right by them," he says in CotBP, when he finds out his crew left without him. A mild reaction to having lost his ship once again.

4. Ahem: "Why should I want to sail with any of you? Four of you have tried to kill me, one of you has succeeded....Oh, she didn't tell you? Then you'll have loads to talk about here." In DJ's Locker...where he was planning on leaving Will, Elizabeth, Barbossa, Jack the Monkey, and Pintel and Ragetti.

I wouldn't say that he's in love there.

Read number three to see my take on forgiveness in Jack.

5. True. He helps her a lot, and he helps Will a lot too. Is he in love with Will?

6. There are a few moments where he softens, I admit, but I don't know if that's love, or just fondness. I know I'm being a bit picky, but I don't see the type of demonstrations that I see from Will and Elizabeth that SHOW love.

2. I wouldn't be so sure about it. It depends how you look at this situation.

3. I disagree.

4. He's been hurt deeply, so it's obvious that he says something bitter. However he doesn't try to kill her in AWE. (He shoots at Barbarossa when they come back and Barbarossa stole his ship not life, why doesn't he shoot at Liz?) He's just not forgotten what she did, but it can be seen that he has forgiven her.

5. He helps a woman that killed him...

6. Jack can't demonstrate his feelings, it's impossible after all she killed him, so why should he demonstrate that he loves her? His actions say it

Originally posted by Surreal_44

5. True. He helps her a lot, and he helps Will a lot too. Is he in love with Will?


well actually since you brought it up....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5SdB_YUCTg

LOL that things you can find on youtube....

Originally posted by miss_swann
JACK DOESN'T LOVE ELIZABETH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WILL LOVES ELIZABETH!!!!!!! And the film is riddled with proof for that!
both love Elizabeth.I'm sorry love,but it1s true.

*whistles* I can't hear you, I live in a bubble! (and I should shut my eyes so i can't "read" you either.)

Yeah, I agree. They both love elizabeth, but in different ways. Will has a more innocent/ puppy love for Elizabeth - he's probably never had anybody else or any feelings towards anybody else to compare it to. Jack loves Elizabeth, and not just for the sex, but for what she has become and what she could be in the future - I think he can see himself in her as well.

SAVVYSPARROW! YOU'VE GOT IT!

anyway, IMO, the way i see it, my point of view, is that Jack feels like he shouldn't show he loves her anymore because he though she made it a point that she doesn't love him because she killed him.... but, he still loves her!

Lizzie, on the other hand, the way i see it, killed him because she thought jack would just endanger everyone else, and i think that she also did it because she couldn't make up her mind between will and jack, but seeing she's 'honorable', she thought that being with will is the right thing to go.... she regretted doing that in the end though... and she still has something for him!

and all that pales in comparison with the hot wedding scene they did that destroyed my hope about sparrabeth, but so it would seem that there is still something with the 'keep telling yourself that darling' crack jack made.. I think he actually wanted her still, but he knows its wrong, for her and him alike, morally wrong... he is an honorable man after all, honorable pirate, hah, oxymoron lol...

that's what i think...

although, Will does love lizzie, and lizzie's feeling.. half half or something, but she chose to do the honorable and right thing to do... but still! THEY LOOK GREAT TOGETH, HER AND JACK.

Am i the only Sparrabether open to Willabeth lol?








and i think-no, i KNOW jack/will pair is DISTURBING...

Originally posted by Jaeh_JediPirate

anyway, IMO, the way i see it, my point of view, is that Jack feels like he shouldn't show he loves her anymore because he though she made it a point that she doesn't love him because she killed him.... but, he still loves her!

Lizzie, on the other hand, the way i see it, killed him because she thought jack would just endanger everyone else, and i think that she also did it because she couldn't make up her mind between will and jack, but seeing she's 'honorable', she thought that being with will is the right thing to go.... she regretted doing that in the end though... and she still has something for him!



Well said! I also think that even though Lizzie chooses to relent to that "sense of honor and deceny", she realizes that while it is important, it isn't everything. She still feels something for Jack, she can appreciate him being a "pirate" now that she has put herself in a similar situation - does this make any sense?

Although I am a 100% Sparrabeth Shipper, I was actually 'okay' with the Willabeth pairing in COTBP (the island scene and others were guilty pleasures). Once I saw the trailer for DMC, however, I never looked back -lol.

Yeah, the Jack/Will pairing *Shiver* - stuff of nightmares, that is.

Originally posted by savvysparrowluv
Well said! I also think that even though Lizzie chooses to relent to that "sense of honor and deceny", she realizes that while it is important, it isn't everything. She still feels something for Jack, she can appreciate him being a "pirate" now that she has put herself in a similar situation - does this make any sense?

Although I am a 100% Sparrabeth Shipper, I was actually 'okay' with the Willabeth pairing in COTBP (the island scene and others were guilty pleasures). Once I saw the trailer for DMC, however, I never looked back -lol.

Yeah, the Jack/Will pairing *Shiver* - stuff of nightmares, that is.

It makes sense.... and thanks..

i'm okay with the wedding, that's the sweetest thing i've ever seen(AWE) though, would've loved it better if Will just let go!


true.. where'd that pairing come from nyway? *shivers*

I loved the wedding! I was so happy! I knew it was going to end my way!

I cried when she kissed Jack in DMC but then someone.... who I can't remember, who had h&m jeans on at the time.... *shurgs* told me that she didn't love him and that's why she sent him to the locker. And then I was happy!

wowiezowie batfolk--your wonderful thoughts are definitely on the fly and I am so amazed. Miss Swann, loved your whistling not listening--got a plainasday mind pic of that one. Miz Tigers--you have some wonderful thinkin going on--not my block of the street exactly however, I admire your passion.

Miz Surreal44--you take the dadgum cake in the cause me to drop my jibe category--Will and Jack, Jack and Will, UST(unrequited...)--ohmygoodness!! Well, it certainly explains my overwhelming conviction that Elisabeth be married to both (oh, yeah, for very different reasons of course). I am smooth blown away. You made me laugh at my very own self, becos I didn't see no stinkin' forests for the trees. I too love your twisty wonderful post toasties.

Yeah, EVERYBODY wants to be with Captain Jack Sparrow--we'd all be wired weird if we didn't want to be with the purported alpha pirate. Everybody wants to be with the BAD Boy--he can probably kiss for days on one breath, and you wouldn't see just stars, but rather galaxies.

Lovethemtigers--your passionnate nature is a beauty to behold. I am too far into my havecake-and-eat it too ship. I can so understand that it felt like the end. I just feel certain that that's what those beautiful dreams, day or otherwise, are.

somebody mentioned Will watching Elisabeth when she gave her hoist the colours speech and the boy was eat up with burning desire for her--

somebody else said that he protected her, but that's what he does for everyone he loves. Cool thinking that bit.

So thanks all for the rousing provacative thinking and the excellent postings--Y'alls all way fine thinkers which helps me expand mine. MizSurreal44, I shall remain on my toes with you--meant with all respect--you turned out to be an excellent teacher, definitely was a whodathoughtit when you said that to me.

*bows* I do my best, texgodiva2s. Will and Jack and Liz...all we need now in that is a bit of Norrington...personally my favorite is the idea that Will and Liz are paired up together, and Jack and James are together, and as a group they all kind of just...er...switch it up. I do love slash and swinging. Don't you?


Jacksweet, and really all Sparrabethers: In conversations some friends have had with the writes, and my own brief personal contact with Ted, it's clear to me that nothing was ever going to happen with Sparrabeth except for sexual tension. SEXUAL TENSION.

Not love. Elizabeth did not love Jack -- ever. Jack was vexed by Elizabeth. He cared about her, she cared about him, but that's all there ever was. I'm not even sure I could say that Jack was truly, fully and totally in love with Elizabeth. There is no evidence of it. He was willing, far too often for my taste, to use her, and then to use her position as king to get what he wanted.

Remember, the example of voting for Elizabeth to be King was a sign of love? Now recall that Jack read the duties of what the pirate king did. Ah ha. Declare war and parley with common enemies. Ah ha! He needed both these things to happen. He needed her to declare war so the pirates would be out in the open, as per his agreement with Beckett (not saying he was planning on actually betraying everyone, he had a plan), and he needed the parley so he could get back on the Dutchman.

In voting for Elizabeth, he voted for the person who was determined to go to war, and the person he would most likely be able to manipulate --er influence -- more easily.


As I think about the 'good-bye' scene...I think that there wasn't a whole lot they could say to each other at this point. I think there is sadness, but I think it's really more awkward than anything else. These two people are not good with words when it comes to personal feelings. How do you thank someone for saving you? How do you say, "Hey I forgive you for totally killing me"? What do you say to someone that you've had fantastic adventures with and also heart-shattering loss?

You use as few words as possible to convey that you're ok, that you're ok with them, that everything will be fine -- and you don't really say good-bye. And that's what Jack and Elizabeth do. She chooses the right thing to say to Jack. Teases him, reminds him of their more innocent and fun adventure, letting him know that she's ok with him and everything that's happened. He teases her back, and for the first time they both really smile around each other. When she goes to give him that last kiss on the cheek he teases her again, which is funny but also is a sign for the audience to let us know that yeah, Jack is going to be just fine. He doesn't need or want Elizabeth to kiss him.

I concede that Jack cares about Elizabeth, and maybe at some point he felt that he possibly loved her -- but those feelings were laid to rest after he died. He was quite happily going to leave her in the Locker. Nothing that happened in the movie indicated that he was 'back' in love with her.

Last point I'll make here: Elizabeth DID NOT SETTLE!!! You can choose to see it that way to assuage your crushed feelings over Sparrabeth, but if you think about Elizabeth, she never settles. If she did, she would have married Norrington. No, she knows what she wants and she goes after it. In fact, it doesn't even seem to be a want so much as a need.

Everything she does, everything she says can be traced back to a desire to be with Will or because of Will. Everything in her world centers around Will. Man, she KILLS for him. She holds him as he stabs the heart, even knowing what it will mean for him and for her. She would rather have him one day and know he's alive but gone from her for ten years than to give him up entirely.

THAT is not settling. That is not her doing the more honorable thing. That is Elizabeth throwing everything she is into saving the life of the man that she loves. Not the man that she loves most, but the man that she loves entirely, with her whole being.

I think you've made some good points (even to me, as a staunch sparrabether), but I do want to address one issue you brought up.


Yes Jack used Elizabeth, but just as much as he used Will or any of the others. They both used Jack as well, so I see this as rather a moot point (not meaning any offence however )

As for the goodbye scene, I agree that they are trying to sum up so much in so few words - they resort to teasing one another, but there is so much subtext. Yes, he doesn't allow her to kiss him, do you think he would be able to resist the temptation of her? He left himself a way out, and was the bigger person (imho).

In addition, there are so many Sparrabethy scenes that didn't make the cut for the movie (I'll post them after this onel). These scenes include a continuation of the goodbye scene amongst others...that one scene in particular called out to me showing Jack's continued feelings for Elizabeth

I don't think that everything that Elizabeth does is just for Will - why, then, did she attempt to kiss Jack again after she had already chained him to the mast? Why did she attempt to kiss him goodbye at the end of AWE? Sometimes I think her actions are strictly for her, I think she still (possibly even secretly) craves to act on selfish impulse.

Scenes from the novel:

when they first meet at the locker)

"Where you killed by the kraken? Or something else? Something painful I hope."
(I will spear u the uninteresting details ok?)
Ignoring his sarcastic welcome, Elizabeth ran up to Jack and threw her arms around him, hugging him hard.
"I'm so sorry," Elizabeth said in a low voice to Jack. "So gad you're all right-"
"Contrition!" said Jack, not returning her embrace or accepting her apology. "very becoming on you. Are you an aspect of my sun-addled brain?" he picked her up and shook her.
"No." Then seeing Tia Dalma, he dropped a stunned Elizabeth and stepped forward.


I those of you who had the first novel already read this but I just thought I'd type up all the deleted sparrabeth moments whether they're only in the full version or not.


Next: when Jack says "we're not back yet." he touches her shoulder. And when Tia Dalma tells them that Elizabeth shouldn't leave the ship. Will and Jack BOTH run to stop her but Will gets to her first.


and also: (parley scene) "Don't be bashful! Step up and claim your reward." he tossed the compass to Jack, who caught it, looking guilty.
"And what reward does such chicanery fetch these days?" Barbossa wanted to know.
Beckett pointed at Elizabet, knowing what impact his statement would make. "Her," he said.
Will was shocked. (were you whelp? When AREN'T you surprised?) Was it true? Had Jack been playing him as well, with his offer to kill Davy Jones? Was it all an elaborate ruse...so that Jack could steal off with Elizabeth? (Oh I wish! So does half the population. Apparently escaping nassau without firing a shot was easy but he can't kidnap a bloody girl!)
Beckett went on relishing the revelation.
"When the cannon smoke clears and the brethren are slaughtered, off he sails on the Pearl, Elizabeth in his arms, and the blame dead square upon his rival." He flicked his finger toward Will.
Everyone considered this. Will was shaken, he wasn't sure what to believe. Jack was so untrustworthy, it was easy to picture him betraying them all that way. But it was also possible that Jack had been misleading Beckett.
Elizabeth was also confused. What would Jack want with her? (I don't want to answer that question) The Pearl she understood, but to take her as well? It did not make sense. (for some reason that is lost upon me he really wants you.)
Jack sighed as if displeased that Beckett had blown his cover.
"Even if that was my plan, he said, "and I'm not admitting to anything-there's not a tinker's chance of it coming off anymore." he glanced at elizabeth and leaned closer to her. "Is there? he asked.

(after a bit blabbering Elizabeth realizes Jack and Will's plan and offers th trade)

There's only one added line in the trade:
"Elizabeth ,love, you're condemning me." Jack said. "Again!"


This isn't JE but it's interesting:
Jack drew his own sword. "I can set you free Jones."
"Have you never loved Jack? My freedom was forfeit long ago."

One of my favorites:
(after Jones stabs Will)
Jack struggled to figure out what to do. He looked down at Will, then at Elizabeth , then at the heart, then back to Will, and finally back to Elizabeth. Rain streamed down her face, combining with her tears. Looking up at him, she uttered one single word, "Please."

And the last bit:
Elizabeth had no idea what the future held for her or Will. Nor did she know what would become of the brethren court, barbossa and most important, Captain Jack Sparrow.

And that my friend is the sad ending to this sad little tale.

(thanks to Tee_Pirategirl for the transcripts )

Well said, tough love. Elisabeth was a strong willed bit of business, no doubt and she was the one who kissed all the men whom she would consider for pairing, with the exception of Norrington--he kissed her.
My oh my, 17-20 real life age and YOU get to pick the boys/men you're going to really kiss. Oh, my oh! kicking
My respect for (and interest in) Norrington skylarked when he bent down to kiss her, masterfully, gently, respectfully, and passionately. Boy had a nice touch with her--not stiff military, but rather a man who had learned a lot.

Passion, passionate--Elisabeth and Will, not a nice couple--but definately powerful. Their children gonna have an uphill battle to put anything over on them as parents. Oh, by the by--someone mentioned wondering if their parents "caught on" about some references to 'luv'--yep, I vote yes they do, since we are all here to contemplate such.

Doesn't mean I won't yearn, long, pine, dream about the witty Jack and him precious Pearl, long as I accept I'm second forever in his heart. Jack gets distracted briefly by his man parts--but his heart is always true, Freedom and the Pearl.

who else is Will Turner like, in what other story--the truebleuOdie? Strider maybe? He has a touch of Jack in him in his devotion to the cause. Any other characters like Will? I'm coming up pretty limited on that list. Help?

None comes to min instantly....let me think on it for a while. I guess Luke and Will are sorta alike...but that's starwars and this is pirates so I traveled a bit far out...let me think...*messes around with her own blank mind*

Captain Carrot from the Disc World series. He's similar to Will. Even Harry Potter is similar to Will. Personality wise, they are all great men, born to be leaders, who don't WANT to be leaders but are forced into that position because of circumstances.

They all have a streak in them that makes them behave more honorably than those around them, but the wonderful thing is that they are all still human. They all make mistakes, judge things incorrectly, and for all the goodness in them, they can still be nasty.

Tomorrow's discussion: the book, the shooting script, and the actual film. Night!!

LOL!! Surreal you're like a professor or something. (true! Harry and Will are alike...harry had the scar, Will had a medallion...po-tay-to, po-ta-to) I adore your logic!!! I AM rather sleepy so I'll take you on "tomorrow's discussion"..... (although I must say Ron and Will are just a tad alike too...well, will is most certainly not clumsy or cowardly but they both seem to eat their brains when it comes to the girl eh? Even though Will gets over that.)

i like this forum

Who is like Will? Will is a classic hero. He's the boy who leads an ordinary, normal life until a stranger comes to town. It's one of the oldest stories around.

Luke Skywalker
Harry Potter
King Arthur
Lord Bao
Prince Lir

Even Frodo has a couple of things in common with Will. I'm not saying they haven't made Will do unique things. He's a great character and I enjoy him. But he is an archetype.

Jack is an archetype too.

Johnny Depp put a slightly different spin on Jack, but even his androgynous take on Sparrow isn't new.

He's the trickster, the one who shakes things up. He makes a mess of things and then tries to fix it. The typical bad boy who can't help himself but be naughty, but is a good guy deep down. It may be a new combination, but Jack's function in the film is not new.



Sound familiar? The text above can be found in http://www.cgjungpage.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=717&Itemid=40, an interesting essay on Jung's theories about how the collective unconscious plays into what an author writes, and the connections an author has with their own plots and characters. It's a heavy, but good read. :-)

From Shakespeare:

Puck -- Midsummer's Night Dream
Ariel -- The Tempest


From Mythology:

Hermes
Cupid
Dionysus
Loki


Fairy Tales:

The fox
The cat
(depending which version you read) The Snow Queen and her sister, Spring.
Various Jack's, a totally popular name to give to fairy-tale characters who are both tricksters and heroes.

Extra Credit Discussion Question: Many of the characters named have androgynous aspects but are considered fully or mostly male. Why is it that there seem to be so few examples of female tricksters?


I'll get to my post on the book/script/movie later.


ETA: I have to disagree that Will is completely an example of just an ordinary boy who remains so until a stranger comes into town. Will has already had something of an extraordinary life. The circumstances of his meeting with Elizabeth, his mother's death and his father's disappearance are filled with the supernatural and abnormal.

Will is more of an example of a person reluctantly pushed into the role of becoming great. Outside forces (destiny, fate) push and pull against him and his very mortal wishes; to marry the woman he loves, to lead a normal life, to be a father, a good provider, etc. It sounds boring to most people, but for Will that was his desire, which he had to put aside for the greater good.

Will gets a happily ever after, but it's not the typical one and it is not without cost or sacrifice, something I think many people over-look on this forum.

Oh, by no means am I saying that by being ordinary that Will is boring. He's very interesting and Orlando Bloom does a wonderful job expressing Will's growth and depth, revealing a little more and a little more as the movies go on. But his life up until the medallion hits the water is normal, bordering on peasantry. He's an apprentice, not quite poor, but certainly not rich, with dreams of being something bigger.

Remember King Arthur started out the same way even though he too had supernatural beginnings. He thought that his father died in battle, when the truth was that...I'm so sorry, I can't remember the name but I think it's Uther Pendragon, disguised himself as the Lady Igraine's husband so he could have sex with her and thus was conceived Arthur. He had his father completely wrong, which Will also had. He thought his father had a legitimate career and never once thought that he had been a pirate...or if he had, he was in firm denial of it.

Yes, Jack is the trickster archetype, which is also a lot of fun. It's a unique twist that it is actually the trickster who is on a quest. Jack's quest for the Pearl is as much a focal point in COTBP as Will's is to save Liz.

I'll try to answer your question, Surreal: the tricksters you give as examples are from stories that are popular in the Western world. Greek myths, Arthurian legend, even Norse mythology is prevalent in North America, South America, and Europe. Stories that gave women the role of trickster just aren't as well known. Take for example the African epic of Sanjata. His mother was one of the ugliest women in Africa, the "buffalo" woman, but she was a spirit who chose that form in order to test everyone else's heart by how they treated her.

But it all depends on who you consider a trickster. In some ways, even Cinderella's godmother is a trickster. Yes, she does mainly good, but she is clever and you're never sure exactly what she is. It's not the greatest example, but it does beg the question.

Question for Everyone: Does Barbossa resemble any characters anyone knows? He has such a unique role.

Good morning, learned ladies and bless you thank you, my clever darlings. Now this be some meaty forum for a growing piratess to sink her pearly whites into.

First of all, yes, Miz Willofthewisp, I agree to a point about William being that good guy slugging along until he "follows the rabbit down the hole" and as Barbossa told Elisabeth, "you better start believing in ghost stories becos you're in one." I was re watching for the 100th time I suppose PotC, where Elisabeth's getting dressed that morning, thinking to myself, if she only knew where she'd end up being tonite. I have always adored the storyline you identified. My heart swells with pride when the littlest or least rise to the occasion and become more of themselves than they could have ever imagined. I am particularly in love with the heros that pay such a price that they can no longer be in this world, like Frodo. He bore the weight, he accepted his burden and he was rewarded with being able to go to the next level.

Jack, ah, the most enchanting coyote, the trickster, this is a spot on call about the character. His doings are not malicious and in fact when he allows us to be privy to his thinking about what it is he's planning, he rarely wishes harm to others, but rather seeks the best outcome for himself and his desired goals. He tells Elisabeth that he wasn't going to give up Will for a ship. Barbossa is the only person Jack seems to be dedicated to harming and I don't know that he found revenge to be that sweet. There was that one line in PotC, when Elisabeth asks "Whose side is Jack on?" and Will answers vaguely "at the time?" with this sweet goofy look that says who knows?!!

Now to your Extra Credit, Miz Surreal44, tricksters are mostly male, I think becos, from what I learned a long time ago, they may have a vested interest in some character or the other, but ultimately they will go on about their business, whereas female tricksters have a tendency to get too much into the situation, fall in love etc. The female tricksters are perceived in that classic woman thang as a b***h. Male tricksters get a bye on this putdown. Also, it seems, since the tricksters we are familiar with are long established in historical literature, they are male becos males have the right to move freely in the world. Sort of that whole thing about the victors get to write history. Women just didn't have that power.

I rather think Tinkerbell was a bit of a trickster, she teased Robin pretty much. I'm going to give this one another think thought and add more as it happens.

Barbossa--started out as the bad guy for sure--the man who stole the Pearl from witty Jack. When he returned he was still a necessary evil and then by the end of AWE he was the benevolent (?) mentor/alternate plan B dad figure. Very watered down Gandalf sort--or Heidi's grandfather.

Barbossa became more noble once he became a mortal again. I think he was mightily proud when he was asked to perform the marriage ceremony for Will and Elisabeth. He was on serious best behavior when faced with Beckett's onslaught.

He started backsliding pretty seriously after the big battle with Davy Jones and Beckett. His selfishness in taking the chart and stealing the Pearl again was somewhat surprizing. I wonder if Jack's going to put him down again or not.

Thanks for asking questions that set my mind to racing along. Y'alls good womens, here in this time and space--I appreciate such and hope to be a worthy shipmate. Take all that you can...

And give nothing back! *drinks to it* I agree with mostly everything you said.

Wow! Interesting discussion. I agree willo...Will is a classic hero. By no means is that a bad thing. Will's done a lot of things that have set him apart from others but if we want categorize him I'd say 'classic hero' who gets more tough by the time th story's over.
Has anyone seen Stardust yet? The hero in that story reminds me of Will SO MUCH. He's from a royal magical bloodline from the begining of the story (much like Will who had the medallion/pirate blood from the start and Harry who was a wizard to begin with.) But he doesn't know there's something special about him until he sets off on a quest to bring back a fallen star for the woman he (thinks) he loves (Will's life was normal until Elizabeth fell into the sea and Harry's adventure didn't begin until Hagrid walked in.) Incidently he too has a happy ending different from what he wanted.

I think though that if I had to pick between the so called 'classic hero' characters in movies I would pick Will...he has things that set him apart.

Jack is a classic trickster too, I agree. But I set out on a mission to find a perfect match for all the POTC characters about a week ago. I found a close enough match for Will. Pintel and Ragetti were a piece of cake and I found a few for Gibbs (not perfectly matched but close enough)

I'm having the hardest time finding a Barbossa.

I found loads of heroins who rebelled against soceity and strived for something more. But the spin on Lizzie is that she becomes something entirely different from what she was...the others learn from the expirience and go back.

But most of all I've been looking for matches for Jack and James. Sure I've found a lot of tricksters (han, long john sliver, just a little bit odyssues etc.) but none as ambiguous as Jack. (As Disney excecutives once asked)...is he drunk? Is he gay? Is he pretending to be drunk and gay or is he trying not to look drunk and gay but comes off as that anyway? Is he a fool trying to be a great pirate or is he a great pirate trying to be a fool? Or is he a great pirate insisting he is a great pirate so he comes off as a fool? He told Elizabeth that he wasn't actually going to trade Will for the Pearl but what if he DID have to make that choice? Hand over the whelp and you get your ship? What if he couldn't find a way to trick Barbossa? What would he do?
I haven't found a trickster portrayed quite that way.

And then there's James Norrington. He's brave and noble and still manages to play dirty if the situation demands. I've found characters like him who are so good that some people categorize them as 'bad' (cause some people didn't like Norrington in COTBP...until the end when he showed what a good man he really was) but none quite like James. He's really unique.

I'm sure I'll find them all though. Characters have been so explored that there's a match for almost every character. Tell me if you find any!

Miz Tee, I vote Jack as an okay pirate (very bright, very capable, lazy B - pirate) who had learned to promote himself, someone who knew people who could provide the "cutting edge" technology (compass), who was opportunistic to the nth degree, who had a wealth of advanced pirate skills (sword fighting, sailing, wooing, drinking, plundering, negotating, commandering), who has bought the not judging a book by the cover program. Let's face it, in the way of the world, Captain Jack was not that fierce or huge a man, he didn't appear to be a great lover. Barbossa pulled out his sword, you would hope to be able to run; Captain Jack pulls out a sword, you hope you don't have to perform first aid after he cuts himself, at least the first time you encounter him. After that, you begin to get the whole picture of the man. No doubt in my mind that Captain Jack was deadly. He didn't think twice about putting Will over the side to possibly be drown. He didn't talk about shooting Barbossa, he shot him. He survived Turkish prison for however long it took him to get that drawering of the key and he got out.

Jack's gig like the first dock scene--move on by the lesser ones ( why bother with dock guards), do what you have to do to remain true to your personal code (saving Elisabeth) regardless of personal cost, do what you have to do to maintain your own personal safety/freedom (grabbed Elisabeth and pointed a GUN to her head--okay so he only "threatened" her "just a little", then at the smithy, he pointed a GUN in Will's face--would he have fired, probably not as we find out later). After that, like he said, what a man can do and what a man can't do. Simple as that.

Do you doubt that Jack was a pirate? He didn't get to the point where we met him by being drunk or gay. There might not have been a huge body count behind him, but I believe he had done his share of doing.

As to Norrington, left to his own devices in his own community, he would have been just who he was. His choice of partner would have tempered some of that rigidity, children I think would have sent him over the moon, no Great Santini here. However, after his fall from grace, he was disappointed and sent scrambling for whatever dignity and pride he could piece together. Then, it seems in DMC, that he actually got into the spirit of it with the sword fight and stealing the heart. He thought he could go back to his old life, but found he respected Jack, had none for Beckett. He was connected to his people, Elisabeth, Weatherby, Will, the men in his command, the people he was supposed to be protecting, even Jack. Oh, strikes me that Norrington in one sense could be like the Farscape character who sent John Creigton and Aryn Sun on to life, while he hung back, held up the bad guys and died a warrior, D'a...something.
Thanks, Miz Tee Pirategirl. Isn't it a blast to play with all these cool ideas about something we've been playing with for so long? I kinda feel like discovering that my car toy is really a transformer pirate or something--how trip is that?

Totally agree about Norrington. He was just stuck between being a bad good guy or a good bad guy and then he just created a categosy of his own...neither. But good never the less.

As for Jack...I I agree! yes of course he's done his share of 'doing'. I don't have a single doubt about that but the general audience who think about it endlessly might have doubts about him. Even the critics have different opinions of him...that's why I find it hard to find a character that matches him perfectly. None are quite as vague.

But if I could find a Will and a Gibbs I guess I can find Jack

No two characters are ever perfectly alike. They all have different variations of weakness, strength, fear, courage, quirks, humor, kindness, gentleness....even if you find a character similar to Will, you won't find one exactly like him. They're all unique in their own ways, even if they do fit a specific category.

Will: Classic Hero
Norrington: Tragic Hero
Jack: Trickster/Fool -- and I mean Fool in a kind way.
Elizabeth: Heroine
Barbossa: Tricky here, but Advesary/Mentor
Tia Dalma: Mystic/Sage
Gibbs: Storyteller
Pintel&Ragetti, Murttogg &Mullroy: Clowns/Fools
Beckett: Advesary


I'm out of time, so I'll explain more fully later. Carry on! I love discussions

Me too perhaps it's because I talk so much and discussion demands talking.

I do agree that no two characters could ever be the same(except for the fred and george weasley who were twins but even they had that slight difference). It would be rather boring if they were all alike wouldn't it? You can't really say they belong in one group.

BTW hats off Surreal...I do agree with every category you picked for each character.
Barbossa is rather interesting. If DMC and AWE were never made all the other characters would still be categorized the same. Sure they'd have long journeys and find out things about themselves they never knew but Will would still be the classic hero and Elizabeth the heroin and so on...Barbossa though would be considered an adversary in COTBP or a 'fun' villain at the very lightest. But with AWE and DMC being made he goes from that to being a not quite trustworthy mentor type character.

One might think that death changed him just a little bit but I really think it was only personal gain. Sticking with the others for his own benifit. He really does have honor though...it's just that his perspective of honor is different from ours

hello, I just erased everything I had written however go to this spot if you please and look/see This person is too cool also check out same one's vid called Friend like me + pirates(that's how I looked it up)Looks for all the world like Jack is really singing some of the song--this person has the good eye as we say in birding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNTxtezSfas

back after all is said and done--love this satisfying forum--my mind what a fun place to play