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Classic Cain vs current Hulk...

who wins??

WWH for the win via a BFR punch several seconds into the fight. If it turns into a longer battle, I don't know. Classic Juggernaut doesn't seem to fall to guys based on strength alone. Has Hulk ever knocked Classic Juggs out? Is it even possible without telepathy?

Originally posted by Acrosurge
WWH for the win via a BFR punch several seconds into the fight. If it turns into a longer battle, I don't know. Classic Juggernaut doesn't seem to fall to guys based on strength alone. Has Hulk ever knocked Classic Juggs out? Is it even possible without telepathy?

He hasn't been knocked out while at full power by a physical force.

Juggy is capable of BFR against Hulk too. Juggs can also knock Hulk out

Hulk's only chance is BFR...if he can't get that done...then he loses.

Originally posted by JuanJohnboy
Classic Cain vs current Hulk...

who wins??

WWH

Hulk,
most versions of Hulk would easily grow powerful enough to bfr Juggernaut quickly, so WWH should do it instantly, if he wanted to.

really nothing juggernaut can/could do to him. it ends when Hulk decides to bfr him or when he gets strong enough to overpower the Cyttorak charm.

WWHulk's too fast, agile, smart and powerful for juggernaut to bfr. he's always been more agile and fast than juggernaut, and now he's got a much much much much higher 'base strength' from which to grow exponentially stronger.

Originally posted by janus77
really nothing juggernaut can/could do to him. it ends when Hulk decides to bfr him or when he gets strong enough to overpower the Cyttorak charm. Thing made Hulk bleed, and hurt him from a couple punches...

Overpower his magic charm? That's not even funny... I don't even know why you think that's feasible.

Originally posted by janus77
Hulk,
most versions of Hulk would easily grow powerful enough to bfr Juggernaut quickly, so WWH should do it instantly, if he wanted to.

really nothing juggernaut can/could do to him. it ends when Hulk decides to bfr him or when he gets strong enough to overpower the Cyttorak charm.

WWHulk's too fast, agile, smart and powerful for juggernaut to bfr. he's always been more agile and fast than juggernaut, and now he's got a much much much much higher 'base strength' from which to grow exponentially stronger.

Since when was it a magic charm? You think he wears a necklace that grants him his powers?

Juggernaut can't be hurt physically and he heals much faster than the Hulk. This thread is just plain stupid.

If you're going to try to be a pedant, swallow a couple of English dictionaries first.

A charm is also a synonym for an incantation - a spell - and that's pretty much how Cain got to become the juggernaut.

juggernaut can be hurt physically, and has been, there's scans on these forums. juggernaut was also physically busted up and KTFO'd by onslaught.


"Juggernaut can't be hurt physically and he heals much faster than the Hulk. This thread is just plain stupid."

since pain ("hurt" is merely the body's way of letting you know it is taking damage, and healing is the remedying of said damage, I think you might want to reconsider what you just wrote there.

if juggernaut "heals", then he can be hurt. moreover, he is merely a fraction of Cyttorak's powers and he's pitted against a being who truly possesses infinite potential for physical power. it's only reasonable to say that some level of Hulk's output will exceed the magics that keep the juggernaut charm going.

or else, we could throw open a Galactus - Juggernaut h2h thread?

There's nothing WWH could do to Classic Juggs without resorting to BFR, which both can easily do. So, BFR notwithstanding - gotta give it to Cain. Cytorrak > Marvel 2007 overhyped event

Originally posted by boriquaking55
There's nothing WWH could do to Classic Juggs without resorting to BFR, which both can easily do. So, BFR notwithstanding - gotta give it to Cain. Cytorrak > Marvel 2007 overhyped event Overhyped-as in flying out of stores as soon as they are stocked.
What could cain do to WWH.

Originally posted by strengthkills
Overhyped-as in flying out of stores as soon as they are stocked.
What could cain do to WWH.

Yea ok, since popularity is what determines what is good these days.

I could care less what the sales numbers are - lest we forget, people are idiots. An intelligent person could care less about whats flying off store shelves. Like that determines the quality of the book.

And besides, sales numbers are real pertinent to this argument anyways. Yea just because WWH is selling, he must be skyfather now.

Classic Juggs wins

Originally posted by boriquaking55
Yea ok, since popularity is what determines what is good these days.

I could care less what the sales numbers are - lest we forget, people are idiots. An intelligent person could care less about whats flying off store shelves. Like that determines the quality of the book.

And besides, sales numbers are real pertinent to this argument anyways. Yea just because WWH is selling, he must be skyfather now.

Classic Juggs wins That is funny,you didnt answer me.
And have you read any of them yet?

For some reason WWH seems to be able to be injured easier than usual. Wolverine was cutting him like butter. I am sure Juggernaut could harm him.

Originally posted by janus77
If you're going to try to be a pedant, swallow a couple of English dictionaries first.

A charm is also a synonym for an incantation - a spell - and that's pretty much how Cain got to become the juggernaut.

juggernaut can be hurt physically, and has been, there's scans on these forums. juggernaut was also physically busted up and KTFO'd by onslaught.


"Juggernaut can't be hurt physically and he heals much faster than the Hulk. This thread is just plain stupid."

since pain ("hurt" is merely the body's way of letting you know it is taking damage, and healing is the remedying of said damage, I think you might want to reconsider what you just wrote there.

if juggernaut "heals", then he can be hurt. moreover, he is merely a fraction of Cyttorak's powers and he's pitted against a being who truly possesses infinite potential for physical power. it's only reasonable to say that some level of Hulk's output will exceed the magics that keep the juggernaut charm going.

or else, we could throw open a Galactus - Juggernaut h2h thread?

Juggernaut can't be hurt by the Hulk, but he can be hurt. If Hulk found a way of injuring the Juggernaut, through a magic item or something, Juggernaut would heal very quickly from it.

But since Hulk can't hurt classic juggernaut in any way, he loses.

Originally posted by llagrok
Juggernaut can't be hurt by the Hulk, but he can be hurt. If Hulk found a way of injuring the Juggernaut, through a magic item or something, Juggernaut would heal very quickly from it.

But since Hulk can't hurt classic juggernaut in any way, he loses.

What's Cain going to do to a person who is stronger than him probably more tactically minded and has has enough durability to take his punches just about forever?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
What's Cain going to do to a person who is stronger than him probably more tactically minded and has has enough durability to take his punches just about forever?

durlaugh

Didn't look like Hulk could take Grimm's punches forever.

Originally posted by llagrok
durlaugh

Didn't look like Hulk could take Grimm's punches forever.

Yes, lets focus on one fight why don't we?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Yes, lets focus on one fight why don't we?

Or Juggernaut's punches.

Originally posted by llagrok
Or Juggernaut's punches.

Those didn't do anything.

He was like "Hey wait! I'm the J--" and it ended

Hulk's got an healing factor and he can (and has) taken huge amounts of bludgeoning damage in this incarnation. Add the fact that he's overall stronger and smarter and Juggy loses by BFR since WWH doesn't have special desire to kill anyone but Reed, BB, Strange and Stark.

Classic Juggs is invulnerable

Juggs ftw

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Those didn't do anything.

He was like "Hey wait! I'm the J--" and it ended

Hulk's got an healing factor and he can (and has) taken huge amounts of bludgeoning damage in this incarnation. Add the fact that he's overall stronger and smarter and Juggy loses by BFR since WWH doesn't have special desire to kill anyone but Reed, BB, Strange and Stark.

Wouldn't be able to kill Juggernaut. There's only a certain amount of strength required to BFR someone of the Juggernaut's and Hulk's weight. Both Juggernaut and Hulk are easily capable of removing eachother. Would the Hulk try to BFR Juggernaut? Nah.

They would keep on fighting and Hulk would lose.

No, they would simply keep fighting until one of them gets bored.

WWH knocks him for a loop.

Originally posted by llagrok
Juggernaut can't be hurt by the Hulk, but he can be hurt. If Hulk found a way of injuring the Juggernaut, through a magic item or something, Juggernaut would heal very quickly from it.

But since Hulk can't hurt classic juggernaut in any way, he loses.
"classic" juggernaut would get hurt by WWH, it'd just take a little time but, it would happen.

unless you're saying that no physical force can hurt juggernaut - what if Galactus tried to squish juggernaut between his thumb and forefinger? - in which case, you're certifiable.

juggernaut doesn't stand a chance in hell against WWH, too much pace, agility, intelligence, tactical skills, power, endurance, stamina... "classic" juggernaut has nothing on him, absolutely nothing.

juggernaut would not be able to bfr WWH unless WWH just stood there and let him lift him up, otherwise, WWH just runs rings around him, grabs an arm and tosses juggernaut to the sun.

Originally posted by janus77
"classic" juggernaut would get hurt by WWH, it'd just take a little time but, it would happen.

unless you're saying that no physical force can hurt juggernaut - what if Galactus tried to squish juggernaut between his thumb and forefinger? - in which case, you're certifiable.

juggernaut doesn't stand a chance in hell against WWH, too much pace, agility, intelligence, tactical skills, power, endurance, stamina... "classic" juggernaut has nothing on him, absolutely nothing.

juggernaut would not be able to bfr WWH unless WWH just stood there and let him lift him up, otherwise, WWH just runs rings around him, grabs an arm and tosses juggernaut to the sun.

lol.

Galactus is stronger than Cyttorak, Hulk isn't.

Originally posted by DARKLORDCAEDUS
WWH knocks him for a loop.

Originally posted by llagrok
lol.

Galactus is stronger than Cyttorak, Hulk isn't.
what part of infinite potential are you having difficulty comprehending.

WWHulk will be strong enough to destroy juggernaut. and he won't even need to be strong as or anywhere near Cyttorak, simply because juggernaut is a mere fraction of Cyttorak's power.


really, i don't see what confuses you so about all this.

Originally posted by janus77
what part of infinite potential are you having difficulty comprehending.

WWHulk will be strong enough to destroy juggernaut. and he won't even need to be strong as or anywhere near Cyttorak, simply because juggernaut is a mere fraction of Cyttorak's power.


really, i don't see what confuses you so about all this.

Having the potential doesn't mean he can reach the strength needed to damage Juggernaut. It could take years upon years of him being angry to reach that. You don't understand the word "potential" or "unlimted".

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Having the potential doesn't mean he can reach the strength needed to damage Juggernaut. It could take years upon years of him being angry to reach that. You don't understand the word "potential" or "unlimted".
or it could take seconds/minutes/hours, it's not as if juggernaut's going to be laying a hand on WWH or anything. and moreover, even if Hulk just stood there and let juggernaut wail on him, nothing much gonna happen. Hulk's stamina and healing easily overcome. so basically you're lost.

you admit he has infinite potential for strength, you have to accept that juggernaut isn't going to be forcing the issue, Hulk can keep the fight going as long as he wants, he will not tire and he is several orders of magnitude faster and more agile than juggernaut, therefore he WILL have the time to become strong enough to destroy juggernaut. his strength increases exponentially, it's always up to the job at hand and it is unlimited.


see, I understand words perfectly well .
it's just that blatantly false statements like "juggernaut cannot be hurt physically!" pop out of people's 'mouths' with alarming regularity.

doesn't take more than a few seconds to show them up for the muppets that they're being.

Classic Juggernaut was no weakling. You assume he can't hurt Hulk when he can.

And no, you don't understand the words, nor do you understand who Classic Juggernaut is. Cain was indestructible to physical harm.

It can be argued the Juggernaut can increase his strength as well.

Originally posted by llagrok
Wouldn't be able to kill Juggernaut.

He couldn't kill Wolverine either

Originally posted by llagrok
There's only a certain amount of strength required to BFR someone of the Juggernaut's and Hulk's weight. Both Juggernaut and Hulk are easily capable of removing eachother.

The difference is that ClassicJuggy has the sole mindset if being unstoppable. He'd never try to BFR someone.

WWH would go for a BFR if he wanted to win rather than kill.
When he met GR he initially knocked him away rather than fight. He BFRed Wolvie on his first attack. He ripped off a guy's arms and tossed them into another county. He swatted away most of the NewXmen.

This isn't SavageHulk were talking about here. WWH doesn't usually pound people mindlessly he just beats them and is done with it.

Originally posted by llagrok
Would the Hulk try to BFR Juggernaut? Nah.

Currently? Yeah he would. He has no motivation to try and kill someone he knows he can't kill.

Originally posted by llagrok
They would keep on fighting and Hulk would lose.

I disagree. Cain won't be changing and Hulk will as the fight goes longer the advantage turn to Hulk since

Originally posted by janus77
what part of infinite potential are you having difficulty comprehending.

WWHulk will be strong enough to destroy juggernaut. and he won't even need to be strong as or anywhere near Cyttorak, simply because juggernaut is a mere fraction of Cyttorak's power.


really, i don't see what confuses you so about all this.


juggernaut has taken a godblast before...without taking much damage. Hulk is gonna be punching with that kind of force, i assure ya. Hulk can not beat Juggernaut physically...it will not happen. Hulk will HAVE to BFR him.

Take a guy who Jugs never knocked out. Piss him off, give him more strength, and make him smarter.

Remember how Wolverine and SpeedFreek stood their own against the Hulk? The former was BEATEN RETARDED, with no chance whatsoever. WWH is definitely a safe bet.

Originally posted by Buccaneer
Take a guy who Jugs never knocked out. Piss him off, give him more strength, and make him smarter.

Remember how Wolverine and SpeedFreek stood their own against the Hulk? The former was BEATEN RETARDED, with no chance whatsoever. WWH is definitely a safe bet.

Juggs has knocked out Hulk before.

The only time that I know of Juggernaut beating Hulk was when Juggy wasn't wearing his costume and the Hulk didn't recognize him. He went easy on Juggy and Juggy wailed...WAILED on the Hulk who was simply surprised that some civilian could be that strong. That being said, it was a one time thing that the Hulk would never allow again. WWH would devistate him.

Originally posted by peregrinefalcon
The only time that I know of Juggernaut beating Hulk was when Juggy wasn't wearing his costume and the Hulk didn't recognize him. He went easy on Juggy and Juggy wailed...WAILED on the Hulk who was simply surprised that some civilian could be that strong. That being said, it was a one time thing that the Hulk would never allow again. WWH would devistate him.

Yeah and Hulk has never beaten Classic Juggernaut or even injured him for that matter.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
For some reason WWH seems to be able to be injured easier than usual. Wolverine was cutting him like butter. I am sure Juggernaut could harm him.

ww hulk wins this

Originally posted by llagrok
Wouldn't be able to kill Juggernaut. There's only a certain amount of strength required to BFR someone of the Juggernaut's and Hulk's weight. Both Juggernaut and Hulk are easily capable of removing eachother. Would the Hulk try to BFR Juggernaut? Nah.

They would keep on fighting and Hulk would lose. Why wouldn't Hulk want to BFR Juggernaut again? I thought Hulk was in a hurry with every single one of his fights... plus he's extremely intelligent right now.... so again.... WHY wouldn't he in a forum fight remove Juggernaut from the picture knowing full well Juggernaut cannot be physically beaten?

Originally posted by Blight


I am referring to classic Juggernaut being able to cause harm to Hulk. It shouldn't be hard to fathom.

I'd like to think WWH could eventually hurt Juggs physically, but realistically I don't think it would happen.

On the other hand, as most people have said, I don't think he'd have a problem knocking Juggs into the ocean to get him out of the way, regardless of where he was on Earth.


On another note, sure Hulk has been shown bleeding in most of these fights...but when has it actually effected him? Sure Wolverine was slicing right through him, but did that even bother him? I think the artists are just taking more time to draw these fights, seeing as a majority of this arc is fighting.

I am sure if Wolverine can still break his skin, Classic Juggs can cause him pain.

That is the point I am trying to make.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Classic Juggernaut was no weakling. You assume he can't hurt Hulk when he can.

And no, you don't understand the words, nor do you understand who Classic Juggernaut is. Cain was indestructible to physical harm.

It can be argued the Juggernaut can increase his strength as well.
no, after a couple of minutes, nothing the juggernaut can do will hurt Hulk, look at what happened with BB. a whisper threw Hulk a distance, but when he came back he had already become exponentially more durable and BB's scream wasn't even enough to move him.

but that's not the only time, the Hulk's demonstrated that kind of exponential rise in durability.

basically, 'classic' juggernaut cannot win even 1/10 against WWH. in every department, WWH is better by leagues. far far far faster and with a far greater intellect than juggernaut.


oh, and how does juggernaut's strength increase? what's your argument there?

Originally posted by MightyEInherjar
Sure Wolverine was slicing right through him, but did that even bother him?

Logan put the full weight of his body into an attack of Hulk and commented that he couldn't cut him, thats why he went for the eyes which didn't gain durability.

Which (since some people have been calling PIS against Hulk so constantly) is completely ridiculous since we've seen arrows bounce off Hulk's eyelids before:
http://files.photojerk.com/Jonathanos/DURABILITY/Eyes-3AV75.jpg

Originally posted by janus77
basically, 'classic' juggernaut cannot win even 1/10 against WWH. in every department, WWH is better by leagues. far far far faster and with a far greater intellect than juggernaut.

He's not likely to win, but he ain't gonna lose either. I'd agree that this Hulk is stronger, has the better fighting abilities and moves faster, but invulnerable = invulnerable.




You really don't wanna go there. It's gonna get hella ugly. Not to mention tiresome.

All this talk of Hulk being able to hurt Juggernaut and visa versa is moot, bottom line is Juggy has taken a God Blast, God Blast made Galactus think twice.

Without BFR this fight is just one big Stalemate, Hulk's Durablity increases with rage and his healing factor means he heals from any damage Jugg's does and Hulk just can't physically hurt Juggs.

With BFR its down to who thinks of it first and with how WWH's mind works he is much more battle savy than Cain and would throw him to the moon.

Thats how it goes down imo.

Current Juggy made WWH bleed. I wonder what classic Juggy could do?

Originally posted by Hercules
All this talk of Hulk being able to hurt Juggernaut and visa versa is moot, bottom line is Juggy has taken a God Blast, God Blast made Galactus think twice.

Without BFR this fight is just one big Stalemate, Hulk's Durablity increases with rage and his healing factor means he heals from any damage Jugg's does and Hulk just can't physically hurt Juggs.

With BFR its down to who thinks of it first and with how WWH's mind works he is much more battle savy than Cain and would throw him to the moon.

Thats how it goes down imo.

Since being tossed to the moon would hurt neither of them, I think it would be to the sun. Which would kill Hulk, but not the Juggernaut.

I think some people really overestimate Hulk's durability. The Thing was able to get in some punches and he's weaker than your classic juggernaut. If Juggernaut kept on pounding he should be able to knock out Hulk for at least 10 seconds. The Hulk however, can't knock out Juggernaut, there is no way he can stop juggernaut. Tossing Juggernaut to the sun wouldn't kill him or knock him unconscious, it would kill Hulk.

As Herc mentioned, Juggernaut has taken the godblast and has erected his shield while standing still. Unless the Hulk is able to use any magic weapon, Juggernaut wouldn't lose. It's possible for the Hulk to lose, it's not possible for the Juggernaut to lose.

Originally posted by llagrok
Since being tossed to the moon would hurt neither of them, I think it would be to the sun. Which would kill Hulk, but not the Juggernaut.

I think some people really overestimate Hulk's durability. The Thing was able to get in some punches and he's weaker than your classic juggernaut. If Juggernaut kept on pounding he should be able to knock out Hulk for at least 10 seconds. The Hulk however, can't knock out Juggernaut, there is no way he can stop juggernaut. Tossing Juggernaut to the sun wouldn't kill him or knock him unconscious, it would kill Hulk.

Why are you so focused on the fight ending in a KO or kill?

Hulk can and will BFR him. Can won't. End of story. We've seen what happens to people Hulk can't kill.

Originally posted by llagrok
Since being tossed to the moon would hurt neither of them, I think it would be to the sun. Which would kill Hulk, but not the Juggernaut.

I think some people really overestimate Hulk's durability. The Thing was able to get in some punches and he's weaker than your classic juggernaut. If Juggernaut kept on pounding he should be able to knock out Hulk for at least 10 seconds. The Hulk however, can't knock out Juggernaut, there is no way he can stop juggernaut. Tossing Juggernaut to the sun wouldn't kill him or knock him unconscious, it would kill Hulk.

As Herc mentioned, Juggernaut has taken the godblast and has erected his shield while standing still. Unless the Hulk is able to use any magic weapon, Juggernaut wouldn't lose. It's possible for the Hulk to lose, it's not possible for the Juggernaut to lose. Hulk had just walked out of a nova flame and storms' lightning and on top of that only made hulk bleed,show me the scan where he was in pain,I can show you the scene where thing gets a free hit and all hulk says is "hmp" that doesnt sound painful to me.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Why are you so focused on the fight ending in a KO or kill?

Hulk can and will BFR him. Can won't. End of story. We've seen what happens to people Hulk can't kill.

How is Hulk gonna BFR him?

grab any part of juggernaut and throw him into earth orbit.

Originally posted by janus77
grab any part of juggernaut and throw him into earth orbit.

Really? Did you know that Jean Gray, you know the powerful telepath, lifted Juggernaut into the air and then Juggernaut WILLED himself to move forward, actually walking on air, defying Jeans telepathy?

Originally posted by Apolloknight
How is Hulk gonna BFR him?

Grab. Throw. BRF.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Really? Did you know that Jean Gray, you know the powerful telepath, lifted Juggernaut into the air and then Juggernaut WILLED himself to move forward, actually walking on air, defying Jeans telepathy?

Good thing Cain is an idiot. Good thing he's pretty much never used that power any other time too.

Originally posted by llagrok
Since being tossed to the moon would hurt neither of them, I think it would be to the sun. Which would kill Hulk, but not the Juggernaut.

I think some people really overestimate Hulk's durability. The Thing was able to get in some punches and he's weaker than your classic juggernaut. If Juggernaut kept on pounding he should be able to knock out Hulk for at least 10 seconds. The Hulk however, can't knock out Juggernaut, there is no way he can stop juggernaut. Tossing Juggernaut to the sun wouldn't kill him or knock him unconscious, it would kill Hulk.

As Herc mentioned, Juggernaut has taken the godblast and has erected his shield while standing still. Unless the Hulk is able to use any magic weapon, Juggernaut wouldn't lose. It's possible for the Hulk to lose, it's not possible for the Juggernaut to lose.

Well if its BFR, then the moon is as good as the sun since all he needs to do is remove him from the battlefield not damage him.



Well it was TK not TP and yes he did but Onslaught also BFR'd him to another country so its not like its not possible to BFR Juggernaut.

Onslaught also ripped him up and beat the snot out of juggernaut. so if Onslaught can bfr him (and of course, anyone with Hulk level strength can bfr juggernaut) then he can hurt him, physically ...

Originally posted by janus77
no, after a couple of minutes, nothing the juggernaut can do will hurt Hulk, look at what happened with BB. a whisper threw Hulk a distance, but when he came back he had already become exponentially more durable and BB's scream wasn't even enough to move him.

basically, 'classic' juggernaut cannot win even 1/10 against WWH. in every department, WWH is better by leagues. far far far faster and with a far greater intellect than juggernaut.

oh, and how does juggernaut's strength increase? what's your argument there?

No, Wolverine was always able to cut him throughout the fight. Others were able injure him. Not once has he taken an attack so far and come out uninjured, in WWH. And Classic Juggernaut is far stronger than practically all that have attacked him.

The only way Hulk can win is BFR against Classic Juggs.

In their first fight, Juggs commented on his strength increasing.

One could also argue that on the 8th day he increased his strength through focus, something he hasn't done before. This was a result of the mind control. It mentions in that story that that is the way Juggernaut should have been. But he activated the gem early and artillery fire destroyed the system that was to kick start the 8th day event. So Cain walked the earth awhile with the power, and somewhat got used to it.

There is also a mention that his power grew due to him having extreme hate for someone or something.

Then of course you have the editors note about the limitless power of Cyttorak he can draw upon. But Cain is ignorant in the use of his powers.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Current Juggy made WWH bleed. I wonder what classic Juggy could do?

Also the Thing was getting in some great hits as well. So your wrong, Juggs will be able to hurt him, whether it will have a lasting effect is another question.


Originally posted by janus77
Onslaught also ripped him up and beat the snot out of juggernaut. so if Onslaught can bfr him (and of course, anyone with Hulk level strength can bfr juggernaut) then he can hurt him, physically ...

One problem, when Onslaught ripped the gem out of Juggernaut's chest, Cain was severly weakened from his time in another dimension that drained his powers. (All New Exiles). So he returned home to a welcoming step-brother.

Hulk being hurt and giving hurt are pretty different, though. Notice how he was affected by Thing's blows, but was about to kill him after one hit.

He also fought the Thing after going head to head with everyone ever. He has godly stamina and a healing factor, but I still think he'd do better in a direct fight with one person, even if it is classic Juggernaut.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
No, Wolverine was always able to cut him throughout the fight. Others were able injure him. Not once has he taken an attack so far and come out uninjured, in WWH. And Classic Juggernaut is far stronger than practically all that have attacked him.

The only way Hulk can win is BFR against Classic Juggs.

In their first fight, Juggs commented on his strength increasing.

One could also argue that on the 8th day he increased his strength through focus, something he hasn't done before. This was a result of the mind control. It mentions in that story that that is the way Juggernaut should have been. But he activated the gem early and artillery fire destroyed the system that was to kick start the 8th day event. So Cain walked the earth awhile with the power, and somewhat got used to it.

There is also a mention that his power grew due to him having extreme hate for someone or something.

Then of course you have the editors note about the limitless power of Cyttorak he can draw upon. But Cain is ignorant in the use of his powers.



Also the Thing was getting in some great hits as well. So your wrong, Juggs will be able to hurt him, whether it will have a lasting effect is another question.




One problem, when Onslaught ripped the gem out of Juggernaut's chest, Cain was severly weakened from his time in another dimension that drained his powers. (All New Exiles). So he returned home to a welcoming step-brother.

Originally posted by janus77
Onslaught also ripped him up and beat the snot out of juggernaut. so if Onslaught can bfr him (and of course, anyone with Hulk level strength can bfr juggernaut) then he can hurt him, physically ...

Juggernaut doesn't carry the gem of cyttorak inside him, so it's pretty obvious that it's complete bullshit. Juggernaut was seen throwing the gem into orbit after he had tried to give it as a birthday present to Black Tom.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos


Good thing Cain is an idiot. Good thing he's pretty much never used that power any other time too.


Well come on, thats a horrible excuse, Juggernaut only withstood the GodForce Blast once, does that mean we shouldn't use that?

Most of Jugg's feats are one time feats, He hasn't appeared in 1000's of comics like Hulk has.


And another thing.............

*remembers last summer's HulK vs Juggernaut debate*

.......Forget it.

Originally posted by JuanJohnboy
Classic Cain vs current Hulk...

who wins??

Can end in so mny ways...all bad for Cain.

Editorial policy at marvel is that Hulk is stongest there is. But nothing can stop Juggernaut. Well...Hulk's theoretical limitless strength remains..but full power jugs has been halted.

Once by odin force, even if only for a fraction of a second.

Again by War Hulk. Dead in his tracks, and then thrown half way across town.

Again by Onslaught. He PHYSICALLY harmed Jugs. Hulk physicaly knocked Onslaught out of his armour.

This hulk is an absolute animal. He's got fighting smarts, and is really pissed. Jugs doesn't get any stronger...he is what he is...

I don't see Jugs knocking out this hulk. He's just not strong enough. The more he fights Hulk, the angrier he'll get. Eventually, he'll get as
strong as he was when he fought Onslaught. Lights out for Jugs.

Okay, if the Jugs fans don't like that...here's another solution.

Hulk is now tactically keen. Jugs will charge him. Hulk will simply use Jugs momentum against him...launch him into orbit IN the direction of Jugs motion. Techniaclly, he doesn't stop juggernaut...he just helps him along the direction he was going in. Jugs is out of the picture pronto with only a broken ego...Hulk smashes...and everyone is happy.

Just read WWH: X-Men #2 though.doesn't end that way...wasa cop-out..

If this was in a comic wwh would win due to bad writing and larger fan crowd... if u took their exact abilities and actually did a fight Juggernaut would win... If u think wwh would "Get" strong enough to bfr him Juggernaut is ALREADY strong enough to bfr since hes NEVER had trouble lifting anything and his draws unlimited power from Big C.... im sick of these threads that fan boys just flock to... BTW Onslaughts writing is considered one of the worst ever considering half the things in it were not to Canon.... as well as inconsistant...

BTW VERY GOOD POINT Picoico:

Hulk is now tactically keen. Jugs will charge him. Hulk will simply use Jugs momentum against him...launch him into orbit IN the direction of Jugs motion. Techniaclly, he doesn't stop juggernaut...he just helps him along the direction he was going in. Jugs is out of the picture pronto with only a broken ego...Hulk smashes...and everyone is happy.

that actually makes ALOT of since like when ppl say Hulk stopped Juggernaut wen he had apoc's technology, he used his momentum... he didnt stop him first.... here's a lil thing you can try, Lock up with your brother or some1 of equal strength and push against each otehr... then wut happens if one of you gives quickly, the otehr 1 falls forward... yeah....

To top it off, Hulk would only win VIA BFR, if there isnt that option in this fight, juggy kills him... not just beats him...

Originally posted by picoico

Editorial policy at marvel is that Hulk is stongest there is. But nothing can stop Juggernaut. Well...Hulk's theoretical limitless strength remains..but full power jugs has been halted.



http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m179/Ptr_Grifin/Juggy_vote1.jpg

please dont make stuff up to make urself feel better....

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Well come on, thats a horrible excuse, Juggernaut only withstood the GodForce Blast once, does that mean we shouldn't use that?

You know exactly what I mean. Durability is what Juggy does. He has never shown the ability to walk on air except that single time so it's hardly a valid feat (unless you want me to bring up Hulk destroying a dimension)

Originally posted by Hannibal-Lector
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m179/Ptr_Grifin/Juggy_vote1.jpg

please dont make stuff up to make urself feel better....

When is that from?

That is from Greenmail (hulks official magazine)

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
When is that from?
Originally posted by Hannibal-Lector
That is from Greenmail (hulks official magazine)

. . .

ahh i got served, i cant read... hmmm not sure when arround Incredible hulk 440ish since the next week 1 brings up 457

however, it is at the time of classic juggernaut and classic juggernaut gets his unlimited strength which never wanes.... so unlimited vs always increasing....
i hate doing this analogy since ive done it so many times:
Say Hulk reaches infinity... then gets madder... so stronger... his strength goes up so it wasnt infinity, neither is what he is then, but juggs is at infinity... only celestrial power (or divine power greater than Big C can overpower his infinity)

Originally posted by Hannibal-Lector
ahh i got served, i cant read... hmmm not sure when arround Incredible hulk 440ish since the next week 1 brings up 457

Oh, looked old to me

Classic Juggernaut is old... anything new would referr to pussy ass current juggernaut

Originally posted by Hannibal-Lector
If this was in a comic wwh would win due to bad writing and larger fan crowd... if u took their exact abilities and actually did a fight Juggernaut would win... If u think wwh would "Get" strong enough to bfr him Juggernaut is ALREADY strong enough to bfr since hes NEVER had trouble lifting anything and his draws unlimited power from Big C.... im sick of these threads that fan boys just flock to... BTW Onslaughts writing is considered one of the worst ever considering half the things in it were not to Canon.... as well as inconsistant...

BTW VERY GOOD POINT Picoico:

Hulk is now tactically keen. Jugs will charge him. Hulk will simply use Jugs momentum against him...launch him into orbit IN the direction of Jugs motion. Techniaclly, he doesn't stop juggernaut...he just helps him along the direction he was going in. Jugs is out of the picture pronto with only a broken ego...Hulk smashes...and everyone is happy.

that actually makes ALOT of since like when ppl say Hulk stopped Juggernaut wen he had apoc's technology, he used his momentum... he didnt stop him first.... here's a lil thing you can try, Lock up with your brother or some1 of equal strength and push against each otehr... then wut happens if one of you gives quickly, the otehr 1 falls forward... yeah....

To top it off, Hulk would only win VIA BFR, if there isnt that option in this fight, juggy kills him... not just beats him... Uhhhhh,War stopped Juggs, he did not use momentum he stopped him in his tracks and flung him...Do I need to post it.

ww hulk beats juggs. its just the way it is.

Originally posted by strengthkills
Uhhhhh,War stopped Juggs, he did not use momentum he stopped him in his tracks and flung him...Do I need to post it. Why does that matter? That's not Hulk at his normal powers, he was amped with a plot device.Originally posted by quanchi112
ww hulk beats juggs. its just the way it is. He beat a severely depowred Juggernaut. Not nothing I'd write home to Mom about actually.

WWH would just pound on Juggs till the end of time, juggs can't hurt hulk and visa versa,but hulk will have the advantage.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Why does that matter? That's not Hulk at his normal powers, he was amped with a plot device. He beat a severely depowred Juggernaut. Not nothing I'd write home to Mom about actually. If you read Hannibals post it would matter,WWH isnt amped......

Originally posted by strengthkills
If you read Hannibals post it would matter,WWH isnt amped......

His anger amplifies his powers. He is amplified.

Read up on the Hulk please

Originally posted by jgiant
WWH would just pound on Juggs till the end of time, juggs can't hurt hulk and visa versa,but hulk will have the advantage.

Juggernaut can in fact hurt Hulk. Despite popular belief, the hulk actually does feel pain and he can be hurt when you punch him. That's why he staggered when the Thing punched him.

Originally posted by llagrok
Juggernaut can in fact hurt Hulk. Despite popular belief, the hulk actually does feel pain and he can be hurt when you punch him. That's why he staggered when the Thing punched him.

Right after taking the nova and a lightning bolt at the same time as well as being thrown into a building.

Originally posted by llagrok
His anger amplifies his powers. He is amplified.

Read up on the Hulk please



Juggernaut can in fact hurt Hulk. Despite popular belief, the hulk actually does feel pain and he can be hurt when you punch him. That's why he staggered when the Thing punched him. Not enough to do significent damage, as long as he continues to get angry he will simply overpower him.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Right after taking the nova and a lightning bolt at the same time as well as being thrown into a building.

Yup.

Never seen Classic juggernaut get injured by any of those attacks.

Originally posted by llagrok
Yup.

Never seen Classic juggernaut get injured by any of those attacks.

Because he tends to rely on straight up durability rather than his HF.

Hulk just stood there and took the nova without much effort. However since his durability is more about HF than stopping damage from happening he would hardly be at full power after than.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
For some reason WWH seems to be able to be injured easier than usual. Wolverine was cutting him like butter. I am sure Juggernaut could harm him.

This changes based on the writer. Jugs has also been shown to bleed. Shatterstar put a sword in each of his eyes...they grew back right away...but he was bleeding. They even shown him to yell out in pain...

That was in X-Force #3...

I kind of like that semi-vulnerable portrayl better. It'd be stupid and boaring to show Hulk land, and just beat the snot out of everyone without getting a scratch. That's one reason I never liked the way Jugs has been portrayed for the most part. I like it when he's shown to at least be a bit mortal...same thing with Thor.

In any case, I was wrong about Hulk being strongest. It's the Sentry who has been getting the major boost...chatacters keep implying he beat off Glaactus...whatever...

At least Ultron made Sentry bleed......that's a GOOD 'thang, imho....

Originally posted by picoico
This changes based on the writer. Jugs has also been shown to bleed. Shatterstar put a sword in each of his eyes...they grew back right away...but he was bleeding. They even shown him to yell out in pain...

That was in X-Force #3...

I kind of like that semi-vulnerable portrayl better. It'd be stupid and boaring to show Hulk land, and just beat the snot out of everyone without getting a scratch. That's one reason I never liked the way Jugs has been portrayed for the most part. I like it when he's shown to at least be a bit mortal...same thing with Thor.

In any case, I was wrong about Hulk being strongest. It's the Sentry who has been getting the major boost...chatacters keep implying he beat off Glaactus...whatever...

At least Ultron made Sentry bleed......that's a GOOD 'thang, imho....

Shatterstar's swords are magic.

Originally posted by picoico
This changes based on the writer. Jugs has also been shown to bleed. Shatterstar put a sword in each of his eyes...they grew back right away...but he was bleeding. They even shown him to yell out in pain...

That was in X-Force #3...

I kind of like that semi-vulnerable portrayl better. It'd be stupid and boaring to show Hulk land, and just beat the snot out of everyone without getting a scratch. That's one reason I never liked the way Jugs has been portrayed for the most part. I like it when he's shown to at least be a bit mortal...same thing with Thor.

In any case, I was wrong about Hulk being strongest. It's the Sentry who has been getting the major boost...chatacters keep implying he beat off Glaactus...whatever...

At least Ultron made Sentry bleed......that's a GOOD 'thang, imho....

Shatterstar's sword was mystical in origin, so it makes sense. It wasn't because he was strong enough or a artist mistake.

Sentry "beat off" Galactus?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Oh, looked old to me

If it's 447, then it's a bit old...around the same time as the whole Onslaught fiasco...and we all know how that worked out for Jugs.

It was bad writing, but still...it is what it is...

Originally posted by llagrok
Shatterstar's swords are magic.

Ahhh...that explains it...kind of lame...but it explains it...

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Shatterstar's sword was mystical in origin, so it makes sense. It wasn't because he was strong enough or a artist mistake.

Sentry "beat off" Galactus?
some people will do anything, to get a little of that awesome Power Cosmic.

Originally posted by llagrok
His anger amplifies his powers. He is amplified.

Read up on the Hulk please



Juggernaut can in fact hurt Hulk. Despite popular belief, the hulk actually does feel pain and he can be hurt when you punch him. That's why he staggered when the Thing punched him. .......
Thing staggered Hulk,hmmmmm,I never knew saying"hmp"signified staggering and or pain.
Please stop saying Thing hurt Hulk...it makes you look desperate.

Originally posted by strengthkills
.......
Thing staggered Hulk,hmmmmm,I never knew saying"hmp"signified staggering and or pain.
Please stop saying Thing hurt Hulk...it makes you look desperate.

Go watch some series or read some comics, plenty of people say "hmph" after having been hit or made bleed.

No matter how way you put it, the Hulk can be and has been hurt physically during WWH. Which means that Juggernaut takes this.

Originally posted by llagrok
Go watch some series or read some comics, plenty of people say "hmph" after having been hit or made bleed.

No matter how way you put it, the Hulk can be and has been hurt physically during WWH. Which means that Juggernaut takes this. He has bled,thats about it,he hasnt been hurt in anything except X-men and then its because his eyes were slashed twice and kitty phased him,you or anyone trying to say thing hurt hulk is very desperate and pathetic,shall I post the scans.

Originally posted by strengthkills
He has bled,thats about it,he hasnt been hurt in anything except X-men and then its because his eyes were slashed twice and kitty phased him,you or anyone trying to say thing hurt hulk is very desperate and pathetic,shall I post the scans.

Post away.

Hulk has still been hurt physically, by characters weaker than the Juggernaut.

Originally posted by llagrok
Post away.

Hulk has still been hurt physically, by characters weaker than the Juggernaut. If he isnt hurt significantly,then why bother bringing it up.
Not once has he been hurt so bad it took more than a panel to recover,not to mention he has One-shotted 3 people who would have given him a decent comic fight in the old days.

Originally posted by llagrok
Go watch some series or read some comics, plenty of people say "hmph" after having been hit or made bleed.

No matter how way you put it, the Hulk can be and has been hurt physically during WWH. Which means that Juggernaut takes this.

Why so sure? There's no indication that Jugs strength is up to the task of knocking hulk out. Dude's been hit with a lot...nuthin.

Black bolt's scream is like...what? A Nuke? No-sale.

HT's nova...nothing.

Ben Grimm didn't stand a chance.

Okay...so the writers make Hulk say "hrmph"....what makes you so sure they woudln't write Jugs saying a "Ghaa" here or there?

Can Jugs be knocked out? Yeah. Nimrod, Onslaught, Hulk... Hulk's done it before...just how much does it take for Hulk to naturally reach the Celesital-enhanced level? Dunno...maybe a century of fighting jugs...maybe an hour.

No indication.

Originally posted by llagrok
Post away.

Hulk has still been hurt physically, by characters weaker than the Juggernaut.


Jugs strength level is a constant. Hulks is not.

Hulk has been hurt..sure. He gets hurt. That makes him even more mad. That makes him stronger. That's not good for Jugs.

Originally posted by picoico
Can Jugs be knocked out? Yeah. Nimrod, Onslaught, Hulk... Hulk's done it before...just how much does it take for Hulk to naturally reach the Celesital-enhanced level? Dunno...maybe a century of fighting jugs...maybe an hour.

In the 616 universe Hulk has never knocked Juggernaut out. The only time I can see you mistaking for that is when the psychic backlash wave KO'd Juggs when Hulk broke free of Red Skulls mind control.

Nimrod used some kind of high frequency sonic that did NOT KO him, but caused him to be disoriented.

As War, Hulk didn't KO Cain either. Besides stopping him with Celestial Tech, Hulk didn't accomplish much in that fight. Cain walked away as it it didn't happen.

Originally posted by picoico
Jugs strength level is a constant. Hulks is not.

Hulk has been hurt..sure. He gets hurt. That makes him even more mad. That makes him stronger. That's not good for Jugs.

There is no indication that it is a constant, nor has there been a cap to his strength. He has never had trouble lifting any thing.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
In the 616 universe Hulk has never knocked Juggernaut out. The only time I can see you mistaking for that is when the psychic backlash wave KO'd Juggs when Hulk broke free of Red Skulls mind control.


War Hulk wasn't main stream?




It was a KO any way you slice it...




The panel showed fear in Jugs eyes. Hulk STOPPED him and tossed him a way like a rag doll. Later, hulk was going to KILL him...until Absorbing man saved his arse.

The celestial tech basically enhanced Hulk's powers...no indication that he can't get there naturally...




He hasn't lifted much. Strength isn't his thing so much as being unstoppable.

Anyway, Onslaught vs Hulk, Onslught vs Jugs clears up the matter of strength.

Originally posted by picoico
War Hulk wasn't main stream?

If you haven't noticed, this thread concerns Classic Juggernaut. Not Current Juggs.



No it wasn't. He was still standing.




Hulk was not going to kill him. Alot of comic characters claim things in comics and they don't happen. Even with the power up, did you notice a scratch or even the tiniest blemish on Juggernaut?



Hulk hasn't lifted a mountain either.

Originally posted by strengthkills
If he isnt hurt significantly,then why bother bringing it up.
Not once has he been hurt so bad it took more than a panel to recover,not to mention he has One-shotted 3 people who would have given him a decent comic fight in the old days.

Well thank god that's relevant. Speedfreak also gave Hulk a decent fight in the old days, but it's still not a big feat to knock him out. Who did Hulk one shot by the way? I haven't seen him one shotting anyone as of yet, I've seen Hercules drop him though.

Originally posted by picoico
Can Jugs be knocked out? Yeah. Nimrod, Onslaught, Hulk... Hulk's done it before...just how much does it take for Hulk to naturally reach the Celesital-enhanced level? Dunno...maybe a century of fighting jugs...maybe an hour.

No indication.

Nimrod used sonics to affect Juggernaut's hearing. Not that it should've worked. Juggernaut is in fact invulnerable and sonics haven't been effective before.

Onslaught, that was bullshit. How can he rip the gem out of Juggernaut if it's in outer space? Juggernaut tossed it into orbit. Cyttorak was shown granting him some more of his powers back after that, but the gem was never placed inside Juggernaut. Not that it matters, seeing as Onslaught was a psychic being.

Hulk after having been upgraded by Apocalypse, sure. But regular Hulk wouldn't be able to stop Juggernaut. Despite what either of you think, WWH hasn't fought a lot of class 100+ yet. He has only fought Hercules, who dropped him like a sack of beans.

when a new bad guy shows up juggernaut seems to develop some huge weakness, or his power level drops considerably so that the new guy can take him out easily and impress everyone enough that they buy more comics.

the onslaught thing was completely stupid. not only was the gem never in the juggernaut, but unless onslaught possesses more physical strength in his thumb and forefinger than there is in thors godforce, it shouldnt have done anything to him. juggernaut has withstood thors godforce and not gone down, he was prepairing to walk into it to get to thor before the ground caved in. in the onslaught saga psylock was shown to repeatedly read cains mind while he had his helmet on, which is also impossible going by any other comic ever written about the juggernaut. its the focus point of most issues hes in, but it was disregarded.

nimrod taking him down with sonics was just about as stupid as the whole onslaught thing was.

spoilers: anyway, in case anyone hasnt read it yet, this fight actually occured in the latest x-men wwh comic. juggernaut got his full power back and during the exchange they had both hulk and juggernaut seemed to agree that pre wwh, juggernaut was more powerful, but hulk said everything that happened before doesnt matter now. so they struggled and neither could force the other back, so hulk didnt have any kind of physical advantage. then professor x distracted cain, and when he looked away the hulk took him out via bfr. so going by that wwh doest really have much of an advantage over the juggernaut, the the fight was "won" because juggernaut was distracted and hulk sidestepped him. then the juggernaut landed in some swamp and hulk said by the time he gets out hulk will be gone anyway.

it would be a cool fight to see, but it looks like wwh doesnt have any advantage going into the fight as far as strength goes.

well WWH basically took down cytorrak himself when he took down the new and improved juggs who was 100% cytorrakinized.

Originally posted by HereComesRandal
well WWH basically took down cytorrak himself when he took down the new and improved juggs who was 100% cytorrakinized.

There you go again with the Bull$h!t.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
There you go again with the Bull$h!t.
Dont bother with him, just do wut the Noted forum rules say about fan boys, just put them on your ignore list, you dont have to state what it is, people already see wut he is especially after he made the comment of "huc" being able to beat any comic character including Darkseid, Thanos, n wut not

Anyways IMO juggy was winning that fight slightly (as he got a few good hits in where as hulk didnt really do ne thing but lock up) until Xavier urged juggy to stop

hannibal i thought we understood each other

Originally posted by HereComesRandal
hannibal i thought we understood each other

I understand how u work just fine... ive stated by opinion, i also tried to cease any tension from forming with a semi-peaceful resolution (as in the 1 the forum suggests). I dont really have much to say to you except warn you: be careful what you say, once you have lost credibility there isnt really a point to use the forum and by the looks of it, your well on your way if not already there to doing that...

not to worried about it, randal is here, but thanks for the warnin

IMO looking at the ground Hulk's feet where sliding back before Professor X distracted Juggernaut. I don't see him winning this fight without the help of some outside agency, and like the first Hulk Juggernaut fight, Professor X showed up to help hand Hulk the day.

Juggernaut wins he has every advantage that matters.

Durability: Juggy

Strength: Push

Stamina: Juggy

Speed: Hulk

Agility: Slight Edge Hulk

Cain basically doesn't tire, can match Hulk for strength, and Hulk can not hurt him. Hulk on the other hand can be hurt and can be affected. If Cain gets him down he can beat Hulk senseless Hulk can not do the same.


BFR has just become a non guaranteed win because Cain can have Cyttorak bring him back to the battlefield. Hulk has no such backup.

Cain wins through beating Hulk down and through BFR neither of which can give Hulk the win.

And yes Hulk was being pushed back in his fight with Cain in WWH.

What a fangirl!!

Originally posted by batdude123
What a fangirl!! Says the guy who thought Magento could give Silver Surfer or Thor a fight

Originally posted by Newjak
Says the guy who thought Magento could give Silver Surfer or Thor a fight

'Give a fight' doesn't equate to winning the majority. pfft

Originally posted by batdude123
'Give a fight' doesn't equate to winning the majority. pfft Except Magneto cann't win any mhm

Originally posted by Newjak
Except Magneto cann't win any mhm

Yes he can! mad

Originally posted by batdude123
Yes he can! mad The Funky Monkey Dance I love it

So anyways back to topic Cain wins

The question is, how is hulk beating juggernaut. I know of a way that juggernaut can beat hulk. Can someone explain this to me besides bfr.

Originally posted by Newjak
Juggernaut wins he has every advantage that matters.

Durability: Juggy

Strength: Push

Stamina: Juggy

Speed: Hulk

Agility: Slight Edge Hulk

Cain basically doesn't tire, can match Hulk for strength, and Hulk can not hurt him. Hulk on the other hand can be hurt and can be affected. If Cain gets him down he can beat Hulk senseless Hulk can not do the same.


BFR has just become a non guaranteed win because Cain can have Cyttorak bring him back to the battlefield. Hulk has no such backup.

Cain wins through beating Hulk down and through BFR neither of which can give Hulk the win.

And yes Hulk was being pushed back in his fight with Cain in WWH.



zomg

Originally posted by llagrok
zomg I know

Originally posted by picoico
The panel showed fear in Jugs eyes. Hulk STOPPED him and tossed him a way like a rag doll. Later, hulk was going to KILL him...until Absorbing man saved his arse.


fear? i thought it was more of a surprise. there is also no on panel evidence that it would have killed him. there is also no on panel evidence that the juggernaut (not cain marko) can even die.



Originally posted by picoico
The celestial tech basically enhanced Hulk's powers...no indication that he can't get there naturally...


actually it didnt. you see the green aura??? that was energy from another universe being funneled into hulk (hulk being the focal point of 616 and heroes reborn universe). that aura also negate juggs magics, which is why he was so effective against juggernaut. it would be the equivalent of juggernauts magics negating gamma rays in hulk and fighting bruce banner. not a good match up if you ask me


Originally posted by picoico
He hasn't lifted much. Strength isn't his thing so much as being unstoppable.

juggs has ALWAYS had the strength to match hulk in any incarnation to date... completely false.

Originally posted by picoico
Anyway, Onslaught vs Hulk, Onslught vs Jugs clears up the matter of strength.


it does??? i thought juggernaut matching hulk in strength no matter what incarnation cleared up the issue of strength.



edit: it was also revealed that the gems power may have been actually calling to onslaught (xavier) during the onslaught/juggernaut battle. which would leave cain marko as a normal human. because cyttorak said that the power was originally meant for xavier anyway because he would have made the perfet juggernaut... sorta *he wouldnt have been vulnerable to phsychics*

as much as i like Hulk, who is my favourite comic book character, in a correctly written fight i can't see him beating fully powered clasic Juggernaut. In sheer strength Hulk may be the superior BUT classic Juggy is totally resistant to physical injury, b'cos the enchantment from the cyttorak gem renders him so. Nothing purely physical( even punches from a severely enraged Hulk) can hurt him. He is able to win a pushing contest with the Hulk, also b'cos of the enchantment magically makes him unstoppable-not just his strength. If it was just strength then he would get around by jumping long distances just like the Hulk. The Hulk's power is purely physical while Juggernaut has magic at his beck and call, which allows him to 'break' physical laws, which the Hulk's gamma radiation powers have to obey

Originally posted by janus77
from which to grow exponentially stronger.

You mean linearly stronger!

I did some research (some was in vain as I already knew most of it).
But many here one this forum argue "who is stronger". When strength (or force) is nowhere near as important as power. Yes power! Jumping ability is dependant on strength and speed. One has to be able to summon strength in a sufficient amount of time in order to leap a certain distance. Juggs has never leaped the distances Hulk has. So it is obviously that he lacks the power Hulk has. Also power (not strength) affects punching damage (or punching power).

All of this is not to say that Hulk wins but just to give info.
Imo, I think since Juggs can't be hurt physically with his shield up then it is at least a stalemate (disregarding BFR of course) for him. But it has stated by marvel that Juggs can be knocked out. His brain is vulnerable to being jarred from powerful strikes to the head and can lose conscienceness. But one must either strike him with an emormous amount of power to the head or just continue to pound at a rate faster than he can heal/regain his order.

got any scans for the unconscious/vulnerable brain thing regarding juggernaut?

also, no Hulk's strength/power doesn't grow linearly but in a way closer to exponential growth. it's been confirmed in many many many instances where a manifold increase in his strength/durability/adaptation (grabbing things that "can't be grabbed" has occured in a short space of time.

as we're seeing in WW Hulk too, he goes from being thrown backwards by BB's voice to being almost unaffected by his full on scream...

the "madder he gets, stronger he gets" is just a simplified formulation for the basic relationship that seems to exist between his stress/anger levels and his power levels.

Originally posted by h1a8
All of this is not to say that Hulk wins but just to give info.
Imo, I think since Juggs can't be hurt physically with his shield up then it is at least a stalemate (disregarding BFR of course) for him. But it has stated by marvel that Juggs can be knocked out. His brain is vulnerable to being jarred from powerful strikes to the head and can lose conscienceness. But one must either strike him with an emormous amount of power to the head or just continue to pound at a rate faster than he can heal/regain his order.

That's B.S. Marvel hasn't stated the Juggernaut can be knocked out by physical force. Juggernaut's invulnerability isn't tied to his shield. Plus even if it was, he has a healing factor as powerful or more powerful than the Hulks. Add to the fact that Juggernaut does not need any major organs to move/fight/stay alive (he was stripped of his flesh leaving only his bones). So that just throws your theory out the window.

Originally posted by janus77
got any scans for the unconscious/vulnerable brain thing regarding juggernaut?

also, no Hulk's strength/power doesn't grow linearly but in a way closer to exponential growth. it's been confirmed in many many many instances where a manifold increase in his strength/durability/adaptation (grabbing things that "can't be grabbed" has occured in a short space of time.

as we're seeing in WW Hulk too, he goes from being thrown backwards by BB's voice to being almost unaffected by his full on scream...

the "madder he gets, stronger he gets" is just a simplified formulation for the basic relationship that seems to exist between his stress/anger levels and his power levels.

I have no scans. But I'm not saying Juggs has been knocked out before. He has been jarred several times though. And I got the info about Juggs able to be jarred from both bios and on panel showings. So I speculated that since his brain can be affected (by mental powers) and that can be jarred by physical force, then it stands to reason that he can be rendered unconscience. For being jarred means to be on the verge of unconscienceness. Thus by pounding faster than he can recover would certainly cause him to lose conscienceness. Or pounding him once with sufficient force. But all that is moot since he has a shield.

Second, when I say linearly I not talking about time but anger/stress level. For example, his anger/stress level can jump exponentially (to time) and thus causing his strength to do likewise. Or his anger level can jump linearly (to time) and cause his strength to do likewise. It is just that his strength grows linearly to his anger/stress level and not necessarily time. But it is possible that his strength can grow exponentially to time provided that his anger/stress does. See I can be reasonable can I.

Originally posted by h1a8
I did some research (some was in vain as I already knew most of it).
But many here one this forum argue "who is stronger". When strength (or force) is nowhere near as important as power. Yes power! Jumping ability is dependant on strength and speed. One has to be able to summon strength in a sufficient amount of time in order to leap a certain distance. Juggs has never leaped the distances Hulk has. So it is obviously that he lacks the power Hulk has. Also power (not strength) affects punching damage (or punching power).



What are you trying to say, That Hulk is stronger because he can generate more power?

actually depowered Juggy has lept VERY far distances... the main reason he doesnt is he preferes to walk

Originally posted by Apolloknight
What are you trying to say, That Hulk is stronger because he can generate more power?

Well since one would need power in order to be strong that would seem like a really good argument.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Well since one would need power in order to be strong that would seem like a really good argument.

Yes and no, although some points hold true, its not everything.

The strength to jump far or high is not only linked to how big or strong ones muscles are, I guarantee you, the strongest men in the world cant hold a candle to the Olympic level long jumpers who clear
27ft on a regular basis. I have also seen guys who solely play basketball and can dunk with utter ease, but can barely squat 200lbs, all while not even clearing 6ft in height.

So the point is moot, although he is right in saying you must generate "power" to jump a certain distance, most of the power is derived from technique and skill, as jumping is more then just using your two legs (there are lots of factors to consider, arm motion, body placement, momentum, etc).

Same is said of punching power, Just because someone can punch harder then someone else, Doesn't mean they are stronger. Again, technique and skill come into play, as punching power Doesn't come from physical strength alone.

So just because hulk may exhibit more power because he can "Jump" further, Doesn't mean he is absolutely stronger.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Yes and no, although some points hold true, its not everything.

The strength to jump far or high is not only linked to how big or strong ones muscles are, I guarantee you, the strongest men in the world cant hold a candle to the Olympic level long jumpers who clear
27ft on a regular basis. I have also seen guys who solely play basketball and can dunk with utter ease, but can barely squat 200lbs, all while not even clearing 6ft in height.

So the point is moot, although he is right in saying you must generate "power" to jump a certain distance, most of the power is derived from technique and skill, as jumping is more then just using your two legs (there are lots of factors to consider, arm motion, body placement, momentum, etc).

Same is said of punching power, Just because someone can punch harder then someone else, Doesn't mean they are stronger. Again, technique is skill come into play, as punching power Doesn't come from physical strength alone.

So just because hulk may exhibit more power because he can"Jump" father, Doesn't mean he is absolutely stronger.

Yes Hulk's immense levels of martial skill must be the thing responsible for the devastating power of his punches as SavageHulk.

Skill counts for a lot, I'll give you that, but the vast majority of Hulk's feats don't display anything of the sort. Traditionally he relied only on force, being the antithesis of Banner's conscious psyche he didn't really get much of a choice.

Perhaps he does have some level of skill, but even then since he displays feats of strength across the board without training he would have to possess a huge reserve of power.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Yes Hulk's immense levels of martial skill must be the thing responsible for the devastating power of his punches as SavageHulk.

Skill counts for a lot, I'll give you that, but the vast majority of Hulk's feats don't display anything of the sort. Traditionally he relied only on force, being the antithesis of Banner's conscious psyche he didn't really get much of a choice.

Perhaps he does have some level of skill, but even then since he displays feats of strength across the board without training he would have to possess a huge reserve of power.


I don't think Hulk has huge martial arts skill (I know your joking) but I do believe he is more skilled then juggernaut, even more so with this incantation of War Hulk, The great Gladiator, Even Gladiators where shown to exhibit decent skill in fighting.

But I agree, Most of Hulks feats have derived from Pure strength alone, I'm just simply trying to downplay the fact that Just because one can jump further isnt 100% proof they are stronger.

Originally posted by Harry Fingerman
Thing made Hulk bleed, and hurt him from a couple punches...

Overpower his magic charm? That's not even funny... I don't even know why you think that's feasible.

So what? Hulk brushed it off and beat the crap out of thing.

Same thing happened with Jugs. Jugs kocked him down...then he got right back up and started pounding back.

Jugs started pushing against the Hulk...hulk didn't move...the floor was gonna give way first. I mean...I know marvel has a bias towards the mystics...but Hulks strength is very much like an enchantment...limitless strength and all. Hell, it even impressed the Beyonder.

And in any case, enchanted or not...Juggy is as dumb as a bag of nails...and the fact is, he couldn't stop the hulk...

Originally posted by h1a8
I have no scans. But I'm not saying Juggs has been knocked out before. He has been jarred several times though. And I got the info about Juggs able to be jarred from both bios and on panel showings. So I speculated that since his brain can be affected (by mental powers) and that can be jarred by physical force, then it stands to reason that he can be rendered unconscience. For being jarred means to be on the verge of unconscienceness. Thus by pounding faster than he can recover would certainly cause him to lose conscienceness. Or pounding him once with sufficient force. But all that is moot since he has a shield.

Second, when I say linearly I not talking about time but anger/stress level. For example, his anger/stress level can jump exponentially (to time) and thus causing his strength to do likewise. Or his anger level can jump linearly (to time) and cause his strength to do likewise. It is just that his strength grows linearly to his anger/stress level and not necessarily time. But it is possible that his strength can grow exponentially to time provided that his anger/stress does. See I can be reasonable can I.
indeed, that does sound reasonable.

I think it's quite telling that Beyonder, Celestial tech by way of Apocalypse and many other beings with access to or imbued with genuinely godly powers have commented on the point that The Hulk does possess infinite powers. the Apocalypse scan, where he relays that his Celestial tech sees the energies that The Hulk +generates+ as perhaps being significant enough to present a challenge to The Celestials. Apocalypse himself states his disgust at the perverse irony of an 'inferior' being (Hulk) possessing such superior power...

and of course The Beyonder states that Hulk possesses access to similarly infinite energies as he himself does.

the point about jumping, leaping etc is definitely a telling one. Hulk's muscles function to a level well and above anything juggernaut's even have been shown to. he had to be transported by Cyttorak to face Hulk, if the situation were reversed, Hulk would just jump over there in a few moments.

also, things such as his ability to rend matter/energy, to grab and tear energy fields suggests that even The Hulk is barely aware of the scope and depths of his powers.


I doubt Juggernaut has anything like 100% access to Cyttorak's powers and more over, that Cyttorak would just sit there and watch as one of his charms sucks up substantial levels of his powers. he's going to cut his losses and let the charm be broken.


imo, the Bruce Banner-Hulk split (well the many many split personalities) retard the Hulk's exploration of his powers to a significant extent. Banner's never embraced his powers, fearing the loss of his conscious, rational self, in the rush of anger and sensation that comes with The Hulk, and The Hulk has always ignored his own powers by merely using them crudely. I'd like to see this Hulk or perhaps Banners (since, if the Strange thing is legit, Banner seems to be cooperating with Hulk) investigate and develop The Hulk's powers.

clearly they are extra-dimensional and not purely physical. they may be a form of matter manipulation, as someone here theorised, or they maybe something else entirely, but it'd be interested to ask the fundamental question about how a 'gamma bomb explosion' could have possibly led to a being with such powers?

Originally posted by Apolloknight
What are you trying to say, That Hulk is stronger because he can generate more power?

No. I'm saying that Hulk has more power (not strength).
Strength means nothing and power means everything.
Power is the speed in which one can summon strength.
In physics Power=Strength x Speed.
Power determines how hard you can punch, jump, etc.
Strength determines how much you can lift and that's it (since you can lift slowly).
A skinny kung-fu master can strike much harder than a large bodybuilder who is stronger. A professional baseball pitcher can throw much harder than a large bodybuilder who can be equally limber.

The proof that Hulk has more power than Juggs is through the leaping distances of both.

Originally posted by picoico
So what? Hulk brushed it off and beat the crap out of thing.

Same thing happened with Jugs. Jugs kocked him down...then he got right back up and started pounding back.

Jugs started pushing against the Hulk...hulk didn't move...the floor was gonna give way first. I mean...I know marvel has a bias towards the mystics...but Hulks strength is very much like an enchantment...limitless strength and all. Hell, it even impressed the Beyonder.

And in any case, enchanted or not...Juggy is as dumb as a bag of nails...and the fact is, he couldn't stop the hulk...

I just can't let that one slide.

Marvel is biased when it comes to Mystics? That's complete and utter bullshit. If they really were that biased, Hulk would be long dead and wouldn't have been capable of "breaking" Dr.Strange's astral hands. Just look at the way Strange has been depicted lately, then look at your stupid post.

The Hulk did in fact move when Juggernaut started pushing, you can clearly tell that he's slowly being pushed backwards. Just look at his traces. Hulk could NEVER, EVER beat Juggernaut. Why? The Juggernaut doesn't tire and he can't be hurt physically.

Originally posted by llagrok
Hulk could NEVER, EVER beat Juggernaut. Why? The Juggernaut doesn't tire and he can't be hurt physically.
Plain and simple.

hulks fans are just too hard to argue with. they just say "hulk will get angrier, heal and be stronger" or "hulk has limitless strength".

hulk is faster than the juggernaut, more agile and can probably jump further. juggernaut is stronger, pretty much indestructible as far as the hulk goes, and doesnt get tired. i cant see how hulk can possibly win, or how juggernaut can possibly lose. juggernaut can hurt the hulk, he might heal very quickly, but not instantly. so its possible for the juggernaut to win, and impossible for the hulk to win. the comic pretty much showed that.

they fought, hulk kind of conceded that juggernaut was better than him pre wwh, and told him that it didnt count because now hes much stronger. they fought, hulk couldnt get any kind of advantage so he sidestepped the juggernaut and took off before he got back.

like in their first fight, hulk could probably throw juggernaut around a bit, look like hes actually doing some damage, but each time the juggernaut would get up unphased and wonder why the hulk thought hed hurt him when he is in fact completely indestructible.

hulk might win though bfr, but thats it. he cant beat down juggernaut, but juggernaut can, given the time, beat down hulk.

Im a Hulk fan but as i stated before, in a correctly written fight Hulk can't win no matter how strong he becomes. Idisagree with the view that Juggernaut is stronger in pure strength, but Classic Juggernaut is completely indestructible and is impossible to hurt through physical means, even if he's not using his forcefield-whilew Hulk is 'merely' very durable.JUggy also has superior stamina. Hulk can exert himself for days but Juggernaut has unlimited stamina as he is constantly energized by the power of Cyttorak. A fight between the 2 would be long and hard, but i'm afraid Juggernaut would take it

War Hulk stopped/raped/ trashed The Juggernaut.

World War Hulk stopped him even easier. If the hulk did not jobbed (as he said in Avengers #5 the iniatitive) he would have killed him horribly.

Originally posted by DEVILHULK
War Hulk stopped/raped/ trashed The Juggernaut.

World War Hulk stopped him even easier. If the hulk did not jobbed (as he said in Avengers #5 the iniatitive) he would have killed him horribly.
How would Hulk kill Juggernaut Mr Retard?

As much as i would like Hulk to destroy a full powered Juggernaut, it can't (or shouldn't) happen as he is indestructable and can't be harmed at all-he is protected by the magic of Cytorrak.It was a major feat for WWH to only just get pushed back a bit by Juggernaut, in World War Hulk:Xmen #3, as Juggy's ability to move forward is part of the enchantment from Cytorrak, not just strength

Originally posted by DEVILHULK
War Hulk stopped/raped/ trashed The Juggernaut.

World War Hulk stopped him even easier. If the hulk did not jobbed (as he said in Avengers #5 the iniatitive) he would have killed him horribly.

Jobbing means to go down when you shouldn't, so no matter what was said, the Hulk didn't job :/

WW Hulk and Classic Juggy looked pretty even to me.

Originally posted by Badabing
WW Hulk and Classic Juggy looked pretty even to me.

U NO TRUE HUC FAN!!!111 durhuc

Originally posted by Evil_Ash
U NO TRUE HUC FAN!!!111 durhuc Oh, I forgot. Hulk pwnz Classic Juggy!!!!!

HULK EATZZZ JUGGERNUT FTW!!!!!

Seeing as clasic juggs is now the same as current juggs... anyone want the name of the thread changed?

Originally posted by pr1983
Seeing as clasic juggs is now the same as current juggs... anyone want the name of the thread changed?

ww hulk should win this.

Originally posted by quanchi112
ww hulk should win this.

Care to explain how?

Shouldn't the thread title actually be Current Juggernaut vs Current Hulk?

Seeing as WWHulk is the title of his current storyline.

Originally posted by quanchi112
ww hulk should win this.
How?

Originally posted by Hercules
Care to explain how?

Shouldn't the thread title actually be Current Juggernaut vs Current Hulk?

Seeing as WWHulk is the title of his current storyline. have u seen what ww hulk is capable of. juggernaut has never done the damge that ww hulk is causing, didnt they meet anyways and isnt ww hulk around soloing teams still?