Manchester Black vs WWHulk

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xmarksthespot
Standard rules. On DC Earth. Bloodlust.

Kill or KO = win.

pr1983
If black can keep hulk off of him, then i'd say he can take the win...

xmarksthespot
Bump.

+ Manchester Black in case people don't know who he is.

Cosmic Cube
Hulk will have a stroke too, I guess.

Unless this is Zombie Hulk; in which case this guy would get eaten, fast.

leonidas
given hulk's retarded healing factor, i'm thinking a strole would drop him for a bit but that's all.

this is a tough match to call, x. i don't think black has anyway to really take him out. illusions and mind games and amping his strength via tk may take up hulk's time, but eventually i think hulk would get to him and that would be that. since hulk hasn't gone against anyone with THIS level of tp, it's sorta hard to say for sure though. erm

guy222
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Standard rules. On DC Earth. Bloodlust.

Kill or KO = win.

WWH wins

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by leonidas
given hulk's retarded healing factor, i'm thinking a strole would drop him for a bit but that's all.

this is a tough match to call, x. i don't think black has anyway to really take him out. illusions and mind games and amping his strength via tk may take up hulk's time, but eventually i think hulk would get to him and that would be that. since hulk hasn't gone against anyone with THIS level of tp, it's sorta hard to say for sure though. erm By dropped for a bit though are you meaning KOed?

SpunkySmurph
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
By dropped for a bit though are you meaning KOed? I wuz gonna point dat owt! ermmoh

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
I wuz gonna point dat owt! ermmoh Well you wuz too late. I is already pointed dat owt!

SpunkySmurph
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Well you wuz too late. I is already pointed dat owt! Oh snap!

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Oh snap! That's right, don't mess with me or I'll go Danish ghetto on your ass.

DARKLORDCAEDUS
I doubt a stroke will stop the beast known as World War Hulk. A well placed thunderclap and down goes this guy.

xmarksthespot
I don't get why MB is being limited to inducing a single stroke...

xmarksthespot
Bump.

Kutulu
WWH was able to regrow his eyes getting gouged out in a matter of seconds, I don't see how Manchester Black can win this. Hulk's healing factor is just too fast.

Juntai
Originally posted by Kutulu
WWH was able to regrow his eyes getting gouged out in a matter of seconds, I don't see how Manchester Black can win this. Hulk's healing factor is just too fast. Thing is though, how does Hulk even get his bearing or get close enough to land a blow? Manchester could telekinetically throw him around with ease.

leonidas
Originally posted by Juntai
Thing is though, how does Hulk even get his bearing or get close enough to land a blow? Manchester could telekinetically throw him around with ease.

yeah, that's what sort of makes this tough to gauge. i think black COULD stay out of his reach, but i don't think he can ko him. i think the stroke would cause a lot of pain but i doubt it would ko him.

i think if hulk reaches him black is a dead man, but i don't know for sure if he CAN reach him . . . erm

llagrok
Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, that's what sort of makes this tough to gauge. i think black COULD stay out of his reach, but i don't think he can ko him. i think the stroke would cause a lot of pain but i doubt it would ko him.

i think if hulk reaches him black is a dead man, but i don't know for sure if he CAN reach him . . . erm

Black should be able to throw up a couple of TK shields to buy him a second or two. Telekinetics can more fly pretty fast you know smile

If Black popped ever blood vessel in Hulk's body, shouldn't that bring him down?

leonidas
Originally posted by llagrok
Black should be able to throw up a couple of TK shields to buy him a second or two. Telekinetics can more fly pretty fast you know smile

If Black popped ever blood vessel in Hulk's body, shouldn't that bring him down?

first, i don't know if black COULD do that to him. hulk's healing factor is off the charts, so it may hurt a lot (maybe ko him for a few seconds?) but it wouldn't stop him for long, long enough to get a win? maybe. i LOVE black, and know very well what he's capable of, but still, i don't know for sure if he could stop hulk. he could avoid him all day if that's what he wanted to do, but then it's just a stalemate. if he stands and fights, i still don't think he could take hulk out.

SpunkySmurph
Originally posted by leonidas
first, i don't know if black COULD do that to him. hulk's healing factor is off the charts, so it may hurt a lot (maybe ko him for a few seconds?) but it wouldn't stop him for long, long enough to get a win? Do we have a set time limit for how long a character must be ko'ed in order to count as a loss? erm

superkronick92
Black did telekenetically punch supes through a mountain, and did threaten to liquify his pancreas, Couldn't he just liquefy hulks brain?

leonidas
Originally posted by superkronick92
Black did telekenetically punch supes through a mountain, and did threaten to liquify his pancreas, Couldn't he just liquefy hulks brain?

threatening is NOT doing . . . erm

and i'm not sure smurf. i'm not even a 100% sure the attack WOULD ko him. an interesting question might be, could black simply CONTINUE to damage hulk's brain even after/while it is healing? if that's the case, then it might be impossible for hulk to win and i would guess enough repetitive damage could/would take out hulk.

maybe? shrug

xmarksthespot
I generally consider something around a ten count, for KO.

I don't see why Black couldn't continue to attack Hulk while he's healing. He still needs a brain to function as far as I'm aware, so I don't see why Black could block off all the arteries in the circle of Willis, and keep them blocked, telekinetically.

Kutulu
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I generally consider something around a ten count, for KO.

I don't see why Black couldn't continue to attack Hulk while he's healing. He still needs a brain to function as far as I'm aware, so I don't see why Black could block off all the arteries in the circle of Willis, and keep them blocked, telekinetically.

The problem is that if Hulk gets amped enough he has shown resistance to telekinetic attacks and the ability to affect raw energy using his body. Examples being ripping through forcefields with his hands, punching a cloud of energy, etc.. Check out the F4 issue where he one-shots through Sue's forcefield with a punch.

This would make it harder for Manchester Black to do his telekinetic internal attacks IMHO.

xmarksthespot
I wouldn't really compare a telekinetic, devoid of any of Superman's weaknesses, who can penetrate his bioaura and give Superman a stroke... to Sue Richards.

leonidas
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I don't see why Black couldn't continue to attack Hulk while he's healing. He still needs a brain to function as far as I'm aware, so I don't see why Black could block off all the arteries in the circle of Willis, and keep them blocked, telekinetically.

certainly possible. if he could, i wonder if it would then come down to an endurance battle -- hulk would continue to heal, perhaps almost indefinitely. would black exhaust himself before he could actually ko hulk? maybe, or maybe hulk would just be a pain-filled, rampaging vegetable until black konked out and hulk healed fully? shrug

it's an interesting match x. tough to call because there really is no examples on which to draw analogies.

janus77
where does Manchester Black get the time and space to do such a sustained attack on the Hulk?

such pain won't debilitate The Hulk at all, he will be an attacking force up until the hypothetical ko occurs.

that means MB won't have time to concentrate or exert himself on that one attack. Hulk will be throwing half the scenery at him.

also, yes Hulk's healing and regen powers will be working all the while so MB probably won't even make much of an attack before it gets to a state where MB's offense is basically overmatched by Hulk's healing/durability/resistance powers.

leonidas
black could basically attack him from across the globe, use illusions, become invisible, fly above hulk's range to leap . . .

evading hulk wouldn't be an issue. ko'ing him, as you said, would be.

i still think it's a stalemate or hulk wins.

janus77
illusions and such don't work on the Hulk. it's been an established part of his 'powers' that magic, astral attacks and psi-attacks all are 'visible' to him.

there isn't much outside his leaping ability, unless it's truly off-world.
think a good question would be, how fast is MB, can he remain outside of Hulk's range for any length of time?

leonidas
Originally posted by janus77
illusions and such don't work on the Hulk. it's been an established part of his 'powers' that magic, astral attacks and psi-attacks all are 'visible' to him.

there isn't much outside his leaping ability, unless it's truly off-world.
think a good question would be, how fast is MB, can he remain outside of Hulk's range for any length of time?

magic and psi-powers are different. where have you seen him see through psi-based illusions?

black was fast enough to match superman in battle. i'd say he was easily quick enough to evade hulk but to do so AND mount enough offense to eventually ko him would be difficult.

janus77
in that case then, given MB's speed, I think Hulk's gonna struggle with MB, but I still don't see MB winning.

the psi stuff works on the astral level, no? like jean could see and project onto that?

Hulk sees astral forms, iirc, he's also fought The Destroyer (when possessed by maestro Hulk, using his astral form.

and mental/psi attacks generally come to naught against the Hulk.

Kutulu
Originally posted by janus77
illusions and such don't work on the Hulk. it's been an established part of his 'powers' that magic, astral attacks and psi-attacks all are 'visible' to him.

there isn't much outside his leaping ability, unless it's truly off-world.
think a good question would be, how fast is MB, can he remain outside of Hulk's range for any length of time?

^^ Quoted for Truth.

Here are examples of Hulk resisting mystical mental attacks from a prepped Dr. Strange:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/priest_85/HulkresistsDrstrange.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/priest_85/HulkresistsDrstrange1.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/priest_85/HulkresistsDrstrange3.jpg

Keep in mind every attack he resists will make him madder and more resistant. There will be a certain point where his healing will be near instantaneous and will overcome the attack itself.

Look at how fast Hulk overcame Sue's forcefield when he fought Reed Richards:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/priest_85/Hulkvsreedsue1.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/priest_85/Hulkvsreedsue2.jpg

It only took two shots to completely overcome Sue's forcefield, which is considered to be extremely strong.

Here is an example of Hulk overcoming x-man's psi-field:
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=hulkvsxman.jpg
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=hulkvsxman1.jpg

He blasted right through X-man's psi attacks, and this was a Hulk that wasn't as amped up as WWH.

Even the Hulk's internals are incredibly durable:
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Hulk/hulkinsidesdurable.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Hulk/hulkinsidesdurable1.jpg

Meaning it's going to require increasing amounts of effort for Manchester Black to even effect his internal structure, as his healing factor, resistance to TK, and internal strength will continue to increase the longer the fight goes on.

See what happens when Kittie phases the Hulk's arms into the ground at the molecular level:
http://img145.imagevenue.com/view.php?image=84593_World_War_Hulk_-_X-Men_8002_009_122_845lo.jpg
http://img143.imagevenue.com/view.php?image=84600_World_War_Hulk_-_X-Men_2002_010_122_1113lo.jpg

That shows that Hulk can reform his body parts even after molecular bonding to another object. His healing is off the charts. He can regrow entire organs in a matter of seconds like in his fight with the x-men, he had his eyes gouged out twice and each time they were back within a few seconds.

Here is an example of Hulk ripping pure energy using his hands:
http://files.photojerk.com/Jonathanos/STRENGTH/Crazy-IH242.jpg

Punches through energy that's strong enough to move a planet:
http://files.photojerk.com/Jonathanos/STRENGTH/Crazy-TTA89.jpg

Thunder-claps through a sonic attack (once again, affecting pure energy):
http://files.photojerk.com/Jonathanos/STRENGTH/Crazy-IH126b.jpg
http://files.photojerk.com/Jonathanos/STRENGTH/Crazy-IH126c.jpg

Punches through a time storm!
http://files.photojerk.com/Jonathanos/STRENGTH/Crazy-IH135.jpg

He can even regrow to normal size after getting shrunk:
http://img302.imageshack.us/img302/5672/ann5j1qa.jpg
http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/3606/ann5k7vo.jpg

Examples of Hulk sensing mystical energies:
http://img137.exs.cx/img137/8595/mysticsense5ho.jpg

Example of Hulk sensing through illusion:
http://img110.exs.cx/img110/644/nebulon11tw.jpg

Example of Hulk seeing an astral form:
http://img53.echo.cx/img53/8946/mystical049yd.jpg

Alfheim
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Bump.

+ Manchester Black in case people don't know who he is.

I dont know who wins but he looks like a very cool character. I got to look him up.

llagrok
If he's powerful enough he could just do things X-man style.

janus77
that scan where he thunderclaps to redirect enough energy to move a planet, ends up destroying a "cosmos"?

is that a proper cosmos - universe - or some special little dimension?

Kutulu
Originally posted by janus77
that scan where he thunderclaps to redirect enough energy to move a planet, ends up destroying a "cosmos"?

is that a proper cosmos - universe - or some special little dimension?

It was known as the Dark Cosmos I believe, basically a pocket dimension. Still it's a hefty feat to destroy a pocket realm using brute strength.

janus77
oh, no doubt it is an impressive feat. The Hulk's been incredible since way back. one of my favourite comic characters.

a lot of his feats are forgotten/minimised in here, it seems no expression.

xmarksthespot
Imo the writer ignored that when Kitty phases herself or others into things her atoms are literally intermingled with the other atoms. Otherwise that incident made no sense.

Also TK constriction of the cerebral arteries would induce KO if prolonged. It isn't about inflicting pain - the brain itself actually has no pain receptors - it's about causing ischemia. Black can block Superman's blood vessels ergo he can block Hulk's. Unless someone is aware of Hulk being able to function without any brain activity.

Kutulu
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Imo the writer ignored that when Kitty phases herself or others into things her atoms are literally intermingled with the other atoms. Otherwise that incident made no sense.

Also TK constriction of the cerebral arteries would induce KO if prolonged. It isn't about inflicting pain - the brain itself actually has no pain receptors - it's about causing ischemia. Black can block Superman's blood vessels ergo he can block Hulk's. Unless someone is aware of Hulk being able to function without any brain activity.

The writer didn't ignore that, he took it into account, that's why Hulk screamed in pain when she did it. Nevertheless Hulk recovered from it.

Look at the scans above. He can literally recover transmutation, and it isn't PIS; it's been shown time and time again to consistently be one of his abilities. He's been transmuted into solid glass (recovered), shrunk down super small (recovered), phased into solid matter (recovered). You get the picture; when Hulk is extremely angry he can do things that you simply could not do with pure physical force.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Kutulu
The writer didn't ignore that, he took it into account, that's why Hulk screamed in pain when she did it. Nevertheless Hulk recovered from it.

Look at the scans above. He can literally recover transmutation, and it isn't PIS; it's been shown time and time again to consistently be one of his abilities. He's been transmuted into solid glass (recovered), shrunk down super small (recovered), phased into solid matter (recovered). You get the picture; when Hulk is extremely angry he can do things that you simply could not do with pure physical force. If the writer had taken into account that Kitty's atoms intermingle with the atoms of other matter when she phases, then when the interlaced atoms coalesced upon her relinquishing her power, his arms would become contiguous with the ground i.e. there would have been no arms to speak of. He'd basically have to regrow his arms and legs from the point at which there was no fusion which wasn't what happened. Instead he just pulled his arms out of the ground, with some chunks as if the ground had pierced into his arm as solid pieces upon her releasing her powers, and a distinction between the two had remained throughout.

Ergo no I don't think how Kitty's power works was taken into account, at least not properly

Shapeshifters/metamorphs, of which Hulk is in a way, have always had resistance to transmutation e.g. Meggan can resist being turned to gold, e.g. Sersi has on occasion encountered a shapeshifter who wouldn't retain the transmutation she performed.\

All of this somewhat an aside, since I doubt Manchester Black will be attacking Hulk's arms.

janus77
what is transmutation/shape-shifting but, a form of matter-manipulation. for Hulk, this is also about gaining an infinite amount of mass/matter from another universe...

I think you've just made the argument for Hulk's resisting, with greater ease than I'd initially thought, such a type of attack.

Mider999
hulk would eventually tire MB out from healing from all his attacks wouldnt he if he wants to beat hulk he'd have to attack him FAST while he's not so strong and then take out every single cell i dont know how though sadly but since this is WWH he'd just keep healing and getting stronger and eventually take MB out

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by janus77
I think you've just made the argument for Hulk's resisting, with greater ease than I'd initially thought, such a type of attack. I simply provided a possible rationale behind resisting transmutation, in that he is in effect a shapeshifter. I don't think he'd be immune to higher levels of matter transmutation, as with all things resistance does not = immunity.

janus77
I don't suggest that resistance is the same thing as immunity, not functionally at least. though with the kind of resistance that a typical Hulk has, it might has well be. it's reasonable to assume that, like his resistance to magic, his TP/k resistance too is a function of his 'rage'. and as Dr. Strange says in the current WWH, Hulk got too angry for the magics to find a way in.

xmarksthespot
Current Strange is a shadow of his former self, and he's not really trying to break his way in so much as find an opening.

Hulk has shown resistance to mind control forms of telepathy, however resistance to mind control doesn't actually equate at all to resistance to direct telepathic attacks such as psiblasts or control of autonomic subconscious functions. Will power, sufficient electromagnetic control, bestial nature, metamorphic powers - all provide some degree of protection from mind control, but none have shown to afford any form of innate protection from psiblasts.

Mider999
in WWH he's resisted being turned into other stuff?

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