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Odin (with reality gem), Onslaught, Apocalypse and Korvac vs One Celestial. My team gets one weeks prep can they do it?

Odin takes all.

Then Korvac takes all.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Odin (with reality gem), Onslaught, Apocalypse and Korvac vs One Celestial. My team gets one weeks prep can they do it? ur determined to see one celestial go down here, arent you?

Originally posted by quanchi112
ur determined to see one celestial go down here, arent you?

Yup.

Originally posted by llagrok
Odin takes all.

Then Korvac takes all.

By taking all do u mean Odins fight excludes Korvac, and then Korvac's fight excludes Odin? If not i dont think that makes ne since

Originally posted by Alfheim
Odin (with reality gem), Onslaught, Apocalypse and Korvac vs One Celestial. My team gets one weeks prep can they do it?

Celestials bend time and space

Originally posted by guy222
Celestials bend time and space

So can Korvac he could have wiped out an entire races existance just by waving his hand. Korvac can time travel and reboot time just by waving his hand.

Combine that with Onslaught and you have a dangerous combination and thats excluding the other two.

Originally posted by Alfheim
So can Korvac he could have wiped out an entire races existance just by waving his hand. Korvac can time travel and reboot time just by waving his hand.

Combine that with Onslaught and you have a dangerous combination and thats excluding the other two.

Poccy is a non factor

Yeah....is apoc the token minority?

Originally posted by guy222
Poccy is a non factor

No hes not didnt Poccy go one on one with Nate. didnt he completely pawn Xavier with his mental powers.

isnt Onslaught a combination of xavier and Magento? Didnt onslaught combine himself with franklin and Nate to become moren powerful than a celestiqal?

If you do the math if Onslaught merges with Poccy he will be very powerful.

Poccy has insane power feats.

Originally posted by Alfheim
No hes not didnt Poccy go one on one with Nate. didnt he completely pawn Xavier with his mental powers.

isnt Onslaught a combination of xavier and Magento? Didnt onslaught combine himself with franklin and Nate to become moren powerful than a celestiqal?

If you do the math if Onslaught merges with Poccy he will be very powerful.

Poccy has insane power feats.

are you high?Apocs powers are derived from celestial technology,there's a good chance they'd be ablketo depower him with a wave of their hand.or using a 100 ft tall remote...

Originally posted by Martian_mind
are you high?Apocs powers are derived from celestial technology,there's a good chance they'd be ablketo depower him with a wave of their hand.or using a 100 ft tall remote...


All the tech does is increase his powers they would beat Poccy is simply because they are more powerful than he is. If he could use the tech to become as powerful as they are it wouldnt help the Celestials even if they created the tech.

using that logic Frankeinstein monster should be weaker than the creator, but of course the question is wether Apoc can become powerful enough to beat the Celestials.

Originally posted by Alfheim
All the tech does is increase his powers they would beat Poccy is simply because they are more powerful than he is. If he could use the tech to become as powerful as they are it wouldnt help the Celestials even if they created the tech.

using that logic Frankeinstein monster should be weaker than the creator, but of course the question is wether Apoc can become powerful enough to beat the Celestials.

Which he can't....and That Frankentstein thing is kinda bad as an exampole,as Frankenstiens creator couldn't manipulate matter or reality on a global scale....

Also,without his tech Apoc was killed by a bullet to the head...

So Apoc can't do anything in this fight,at all.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Which he can't....and That Frankentstein thing is kinda bad as an exampole,as Frankenstiens creator couldn't manipulate matter or reality on a global scale....


Yes im aware of that, but its the principle. Just because you create something does not neccesarily mean you can depower it.

If Apoc were able to make himself as powerful as a Celestial them knwoing the tech wont make a difference.


Originally posted by Martian_mind

Also,without his tech Apoc was killed by a bullet to the head...

So Apoc can't do anything in this fight,at all.

Bro Apoc gets his tech he gets 1weeks prep and his back up by three other people. Apoc getting injured by a bullet to his head even without tech is PIS...and like I said he gets his tech anyway.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes im aware of that, but its the principle. Just because you create something does not neccesarily mean you can depower it.

If Apoc were able to make himself as powerful as a Celestial them knwoing the tech wont make a difference.




Bro Apoc gets his tech he gets 1weeks prep and his back up by three other people. Apoc getting injured by a bullet to his head even without tech is PIS...and like I said he gets his tech anyway.

He has 10 000 years worth of time and he's still the weakest on his team,1 week won't make a difference.Also,my point is that A celestial can conjure up all the equipment they need to beat him...Apoc is useless.

A celestial can one-shot him,and he has no way of harming them,i mean Odin had 3ooo years of prep for the celestials and still got shit-stomped..

Onslaught never displayed power close to the celestials so it's vitually worthless,i mean if worst comes to worst the celestial can bowl the whole planet into the sun..

Originally posted by Martian_mind
He has 10 000 years worth of time and he's still the weakest on his team,1 week won't make a difference.Also,my point is that A celestial can conjure up all the equipment they need to beat him...Apoc is useless.

thats just a statement with nothing to back it up. Onslaught is a combination of Xavier and Magneto and Apoc has pwned xavier in mind powers. Apoc has also completely pawned a powerful Eternal and has taking several hero teams at the same time. So you're just chatting rubbish


Originally posted by Martian_mind

A celestial can one-shot him,and he has no way of harming them,i mean Odin had 3ooo years of prep for the celestials and still got shit-stomped..

Onslaught never displayed power close to the celestials so it's vitually worthless,i mean if worst comes to worst the celestial can bowl the whole planet into the sun..

As far as I know Onslaught become more powerful than a Clestial when he joined with Nate and Franklin. Something tells me if Onslaught joins with Apoc boosted by Celestsial tech, Korvac who can wipe out and entire civilzation by waving his hand and Odin with a reality gem he can become more powerful than a Celestial....I hope

Originally posted by Alfheim
thats just a statement with nothing to back it up. Onslaught is a combination of Xavier and Magneto and Apoc has pwned xavier in mind powers. Apoc has also completely pawned a powerful Eternal and has taking several hero teams at the same time. So you're just chatting rubbish




As far as I know Onslaught become more powerful than a Clestial when he joined with Nate and Franklin. Something tells me if Onslaught joins with Apoc boosted by Celestsial tech, Korvac who can wipe out and entire civilzation by waving his hand and Odin with a reality gem he can become more powerful than a Celestial....I hope

I don't know wtf ups with you tonight,but clearly you don't comprehend what a knat Apoc is in comparison to a celestial .You have been saying that Apoc,with a week of prep may be able to become as powerful as a celestial when after 10 000 years he is still herald-level at best.Also,was the eternal knocked out?did you even realise that the author had a celestial being phased by a stab wound when they have a healing factor so good they can survive molecular dispersion?Also how about Apocs lower showings?You can't just pick and choose the showings you want..

Well,clearly you don't know much on the subject if that is the case,i'm sorry to say.Also,when have i said that the team doesn't win?All i said was that Apoc being here is stupid,as your forcing your team to waste time amping someone who has no place being here,when they could use it amping themeselves.

However,as you have stated that you made this thread specifically fopr Celestials to lose i'm not going to be bothered arguing with someone who made this with their defeat in mind.

Apocalypse, once, one single time, possibly psiblasted Xavier, causing him pain. Xavier is conscious when next seen a page or two after thus, logically was not knocked out. Random psiblast causing pain doesn't make for a superior psi. Also irrelevant considering Xavier's mental powers would likely be nothing to a Celestial.

Ikaris fought like an idiot in the fight with Apocalypse. He is a non-factor.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
I don't know wtf ups with you tonight,but clearly you don't comprehend what a knat Apoc is in comparison to a celestial .You have been saying that Apoc,with a week of prep may be able to become as powerful as a celestial when after 10 000 years he is still herald-level at best.Also,was the eternal knocked out?did you even realise that the author had a celestial being phased by a stab wound when they have a healing factor so good they can survive molecular dispersion?Also how about Apocs lower showings?You can't just pick and choose the showings you want..


Argh, no im not saying that he can become as powerful as a Clestial in a week he cant. What I was saying if he could The Celestial knowing the tech isnt going to help.


Originally posted by Martian_mind

Well,clearly you don't know much on the subject if that is the case,i'm sorry to say.Also,when have i said that the team doesn't win?All i said was that Apoc being here is stupid,as your forcing your team to waste time amping someone who has no place being here,when they could use it amping themeselves.

However,as you have stated that you made this thread specifically fopr Celestials to lose i'm not going to be bothered arguing with someone who made this with their defeat in mind.

You really need to calm down.


Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Apocalypse, once, one single time, possibly psiblasted Xavier, causing him pain. Xavier is conscious when next seen a page or two after thus, logically was not knocked out.


Well this is the thing. It looked like it hurt alot and it looked like Apoc wasnt even trying.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Random psiblast causing pain doesn't make for a superior psi.


That would depend on how much it hurt. You dont neccesarily have to ko somebody to be superior eventhough that is a good indication.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Also irrelevant considering Xavier's mental powers would likely be nothing to a Celestial.

Well I was under the impression that Onlsught was a combo of Magneto and Xavier, since it seems that Apoc pawned Xavier or at least was a match for Xavier, Apoc would be a good edition to Onslaught.

Didnt Apoc fight Nate?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Ikaris fought like an idiot in the fight with Apocalypse. He is a non-factor.

Ok elaborate, its just seemed Apoc was more powerful.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well this is the thing. It looked like it hurt alot and it looked like Apoc wasnt even trying.

That would depend on how much it hurt. You dont neccesarily have to ko somebody to be superior eventhough that is a good indication.

Well I was under the impression that Onlsught was a combo of Magneto and Xavier, since it seems that Apoc pawned Xavier or at least was a match for Xavier, Apoc would be a good edition to Onslaught.

Didnt Apoc fight Nate?I'm just going to repost my rationale against ascribing Apocalypse some super telepath status:

1) It was a one-time occurrence, the sole time I've seen Apocalypse use such telepathy if it was such telepathy.
2) There's no conclusiveness as to whether it was even telepathy. Telepathy is not normally accompanied by sound effects. Energy blasts on the other hand may be.
3) Xavier wasn't even rendered unconscious. It wasn't a "toe-to-toe" telepathic fight, it was one possibly telepathic sucker punch.
and...
4) And? How exactly does that show superior telepathic power or skill to Xavier. Telepaths are not automatically immune to any and all forms telepathy. Telepaths do constantly screen out thoughts with their powers, but they do not constantly defend.
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/2609/xman05003yp8rc0.th.jpg
Emma telepathically sucker punching Nate does not make her a superior psi - despite her proclamation.

This is what Xavier is capable of:
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/3601/0maximumsecurity32jk8.th.jpg http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/7658/0maximumsecurity33pe7.th.jpg
And he's basically done this not once, not twice, but thrice. Among other things. So no, I would most definitely not put Apocalypse in the same league telepathically, let alone above.

With regards to Nate vs Apocalypse, not in a telepathic face-off as far as I'm aware.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok elaborate, its just seemed Apoc was more powerful.
Ikaris was the Prime Eternal, as such his abilities as an Eternal should have been amplified. He was defeated by being stabbed.

Sersi, not the Prime Eternal, has had her arm atomized, subsequently escaped, remained intangible as she plummeted through the atmosphere, crashed into the sublevels of the Pentagon, and then regenerated her arm. She's also reconstituted herself from being atomized. She also helped a race form a Uni-Mind to defeat the Collector, an Elder of the Universe.

Ergo he fought like an idiot, in my books.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I'm just going to repost my rationale against ascribing Apocalypse some super telepath status:

1) It was a one-time occurrence, the sole time I've seen Apocalypse use such telepathy if it was such telepathy.

Well not its not. Hes been able to read Ozys minds. He has used his mind to psionically punk Jean Grey

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

2) There's no conclusiveness as to whether it was even telepathy. Telepathy is not normally accompanied by sound effects. Energy blasts on the other hand may be.

I dunno man im pretty sure ive seen some cases were mind blasts do make sound effects.

Mind blasts usually are shown as energy around the persons head and also it did not seem to do any physical damage. It was also not seen emanting like a regular blast from Apoc like Cyclops optic blasts and just appeared around Xaviers head.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

3) Xavier wasn't even rendered unconscious. It wasn't a "toe-to-toe" telepathic fight, it was one possibly telepathic sucker punch.
and....

His head was thrown back and he was helpless when he got hit. You dont neccesarily have to be Koed. Also Apoc wasnt even trying.


Originally posted by xmarksthespot

4) And? How exactly does that show superior telepathic power or skill to Xavier. Telepaths are not automatically immune to any and all forms telepathy. Telepaths do constantly screen out thoughts with their powers, but they do not constantly defend.

Ok we dont know for certain but if I were going up against Apoc I would defend myself because im not sure what Apoc would come up with.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/2609/xman05003yp8rc0.th.jpg
Emma telepathically sucker punching Nate does not make her a superior psi - despite her proclamation.

It would make her powerful though wouldnt it?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

With regards to Nate vs Apocalypse, not in a telepathic face-off as far as I'm aware.

Ok. I'll look into it, from what I know Nate was ****ing his pants.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Ikaris was the Prime Eternal, as such his abilities as an Eternal should have been amplified. He was defeated by being stabbed.

Well this is the thing. Apoc gets amped by Celestial tech. If Ikaris is prime that means its a great feat for Apoc because obvously it would take a great deal of force to stab.

If Luke Cage gets stabbed hes not an idiot it means that the person who has managed to stabed him is powerful.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Sersi, not the Prime Eternal, has had her arm atomized, subsequently escaped, remained intangible as she plummeted through the atmosphere, crashed into the sublevels of the Pentagon, and then regenerated her arm. She's also reconstituted herself from being atomized. She also helped a race form a Uni-Mind to defeat the Collector, an Elder of the Universe.

Ergo he fought like an idiot, in my books.

I dont see how that changes anything. Apoc has Celestial tech so im assuming that this is the reason why he was able to stab Ikaris. Regardless of wether he is Prime or not being stabbed in the hurt would still hurt alot, it wouldnt kill him but it would still hurt.

TricksterPriest often posts his list of "high end telepathic feats" from Apocalypse. Most of them don't actually involve active telepathy, including the Jean Grey incident. In it he refers to her power in a tone that indicates he doesn't have it/will have to prepare for it in future - it is something novel to him. The event shows strong mental defenses definitely. It doesn't really show active telepathic ability. Additionally in Search for Cyclops Jean holds Apocalypse telepathically and ejects him from Scott's body.

So the single instance must make her > Apocalypse... but then the other single instance must make Apocalypse > Xavier.... but then Xavier's feats make him > Jean sans Phoenix... hmm

Apocalypse lacks the feats to be considered a first order telepath.

The panel is small. Psiblasts generally do not make noise as far as I'm aware. I didn't say it conclusively wasn't a telepathic attack, but then I'm not completely convinced that it was.

Emma is a first order psi, with many feats to verify her telepathic prowess. She is not more powerful than Nate, though, not even equal to him - much as I love 'er.

The incident with Emma and Nate is merely intended to show that telepaths are not immune to telepathy themselves. Nor are they constantly defending against telepathic attack. Nor does hurting a telepath with a telepathic sucker punch indicate that the one who did so is necessarily powerful, equal in power to, or superior to the telepath who was hurt.

The Prime Eternal is intended to be around Skyfather level; Zuras as the Prime Eternal stalemated Zeus. That Ikaris was downed by being stabbed when Sersi who isn't the Prime Eternal has done so much more, tells me he was badly written.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
TricksterPriest often posts his list of "high end telepathic feats" from Apocalypse. Most of them don't actually involve active telepathy, including the Jean Grey incident. In it he refers to her power in a tone that indicates he doesn't have it/will have to prepare for it in future - it is something novel to him. The event shows strong mental defenses definitely. It doesn't really show active telepathic ability. Additionally in Search for Cyclops Jean holds Apocalypse telepathically and ejects him from Scott's body.


So the single instance must make her > Apocalypse... but then the other single instance must make Apocalypse > Xavier.... but then Xavier's feats make him > Jean sans Phoenix... hmm


Apocalypse lacks the feats to be considered a first order telepath.


Ok but im pretty sure he reads Ozy's mind, so this indicates that he does have mental powers and if he has a strong mind his mental powers should be greater than Jeans.

Considering that he resisted Jean in a weakened state, theres no way Jean should be able to eject Apoc like that.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

The panel is small. Psiblasts generally do not make noise as far as I'm aware. I didn't say it conclusively wasn't a telepathic attack, but then I'm not completely convinced that it was.


Fair enough but I think it was given the reasons.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Emma is a first order psi, with many feats to verify her telepathic prowess. She is not more powerful than Nate, though, not even equal to him - much as I love 'er.

The incident with Emma and Nate is merely intended to show that telepaths are not immune to telepathy themselves. Nor are they constantly defending against telepathic attack. Nor does hurting a telepath with a telepathic sucker punch indicate that the one who did so is necessarily powerful, equal in power to, or superior to the telepath who was hurt.

Ok agreed but it seems to me that you would still need to be powerful to hurt a strong psionic.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

The Prime Eternal is intended to be around Skyfather level; Zuras as the Prime Eternal stalemated Zeus. That he was downed by being stabbed when Sersi who isn't the Prime Eternal has done so much more, tells me he was badly written.

Yes I understand but my logic is that it was not a convetional stabbing.

Odin and Zeus are very powerful but if they were to get stabbed in the heart it would hurt alot, but for them to be stabbed in the first place it would take something very powerful.

There isn't anything to suggest that it was anything besides a straightforward physical attack. He wasn't stabbed through the heart, he was stabbed through the abdomen afaik - a wound an Eternal, let alone the Prime Eternal, should be able to regenerate from without a deal of difficulty.

In any event none of the above really makes Apocalypse any sort of threat to a Celestial...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
There isn't anything to suggest that it was anything besides a straightforward physical attack. He wasn't stabbed through the heart, he was stabbed through the abdomen afaik - a wound an Eternal, let alone the Prime Eternal, should be able to regenerate from without a deal of difficulty.



I guess its like The Asargadian Destroyer cutting of a Celestials arm. Sure he cut it off but it didnt mean a damn thing because The Celestial regenerated with a minimum of fuss.

Well this the thing I agree he should be able to regenerate and all fairness he wasnt down long, I still think it would hurt because the force needed to penetrate him must have been alot.

I think we could at least say that despite the stabbing incident that Apoc can give Ikaris a good fight.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

In any event none of the above really makes Apocalypse any sort of threat to a Celestial...

Well ok heres my logic. I think Apoc still has mental powers strong enough to rival Prof X due to the reasons given.

Now from my understanding Onslaught is a combo of Prox and Magneto, gaining a mind like Apoc would make him really powerful like when he aborbed Nates mind. Ok I dont know if his mind is as strong as Nates but Nate seemed to be scared of Apoc.

Apparently when Onslaught merged with Nate and Franklin he became more powerful than a Clestial. Im hoping that Apoc will be my Nate and Odin with reality gem and Korvac will be my Franklin Richards.

Korvac by the way is powerful enough to stop an alien race from existing by waving his hands. He would be a great asset because apparently Onslaught used Franklins reality warping powers.

I believe that the realty gem is dangerous to use if not accompanied by the other gems and some one of Dr. Strange level was able to defeat each gem individualy.

This battle still goes to the one Celestial and the only ones that he needs to worry about are Odin and Korvac. Onslaught has never been more powerful than a Celestial but has the potential to surpass them and as we all now that was never accomplished and Apocalypse isn't really going to change this outcome.

Alfheim if you already believe that Onslaught is already greater than the Celestials than this battle is pointless and why back him up with three other characters.

Originally posted by Power16
I believe that the realty gem is dangerous to use if not accompanied by the other gems and some one of Dr. Strange level was able to defeat each gem individualy.

At any rate Odin with a reality gem will be hella powerful.

Originally posted by Power16

This battle still goes to the one Celestial and the only ones that he needs to worry about are Odin and Korvac. Onslaught has never been more powerful than a Celestial but has the potential to surpass them and as we all now that was never accomplished and Apocalypse isn't really going to change this outcome.

Well not according to this:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onslaught_(comics)

Onslaught was considered to be one of the most powerful Marvel Characters on Earth 616 itself, easily surpassing the Celestials due to Franklin Richard's power, who rivals the Celestials in potential, in addition to X-Man's and Onslaught's own powers combined with Franklin's.

Originally posted by Power16

Alfheim if you already believe that Onslaught is already greater than the Celestials than this battle is pointless and why back him up with three other characters.

thats not what I said. I said:


Originally posted by Alfheim

Apparently when Onslaught merged with Nate and Franklin he became more powerful than a Clestial. Im hoping that Apoc will be my Nate and Odin with reality gem and Korvac will be my Franklin Richards.

Korvac by the way is powerful enough to stop an alien race from existing by waving his hands. He would be a great asset because apparently Onslaught used Franklins reality warping powers.

Ok! I do get tired of hearing one of the most powerful, that is used to much and come on wikipedia!

That's the thing though when he merged with Nate and Franklin he didn't become more powerful than a celestial and nothing he did during his time showed him more powerful than the likes of Odin.

Which is why i said he has the potential and to me it seems as if he was using franklin powers with franklin's mental block since he did nothing that was extraordinary.

Originally posted by Power16
Ok! I do get tired of hearing one of the most powerful, that is used to much and come on wikipedia!

That's the thing though when he merged with Nate and Franklin he didn't become more powerful than a celestial and nothing he did during his time showed him more powerful than the likes of Odin.

Which is why i said he has the potential and to me it seems as if he was using franklin powers with franklin's mental block since he did nothing that was extraordinary.

You know what I dunno about that people seem to think that Onslaught with Franklin and Nate was extremely powerfuln heel they guy created a second sun....that aint bad.

Onslaught alone could do it. Korvac also if he would absorb enough power.
Odin with gem could also do it alone.

Apocalypse is a non factor. Yes, he has defeated PE Ikaris, who is very powerful, he was actually better than HE, was also clearly match for Loki, but non of them are on Celestial level.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The Prime Eternal is intended to be around Skyfather level; Zuras as the Prime Eternal stalemated Zeus. That Ikaris was downed by being stabbed when Sersi who isn't the Prime Eternal has done so much more, tells me he was badly written.

No, not really. As joke as Apocalypse can be, if he shows sometimes some great feat or power level, even those who hate Apocalypse aren't surprised by what he has done, because they realize he should be like the always as he was intended in the first place.

Actually mostly the hate towards Apocalypse comes because he isn't written as what he should be.
But when he does something great, no one is surprised, all know it's within his capabilities.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Onslaught alone could do it. Korvac also if he would absorb enough power.
Odin with gem could also do it alone.


For real? I guess that kinda makes sense. Korvac got his powers from draining Galactus's ship so its just a matter how much power he can get.

You serioulsy think Odin with reality gem could do it alone? Hmmm I know The Gardener took on The Stranger with a gem but I dont think Stranger is anywhere near Celestial level.

How could Onslaught do it alone?

Originally posted by Alfheim
I think Apoc still has mental powers strong enough to rival Prof X due to the reasons given.The thing is though his mental powers don't rival Xavier's.

-He is shown to have strong mental defenses in one instance; in which he incidentally appears to find Jean Grey's telepathy a novelty. Of course this is contradicted by Jean in a another appearance telepathically holding him.
-He has one somewhat ambiguous instance of a telepathic sucker punch which really doesn't give any gauge whatsoever as to the level of telepathic power nor skill; as telepaths themselves are not immune to telepathy anyway nor do they constantly defend from telepathic attack. A psiblast is a relatively crude use of telepathy, any telepath from a random Morlock to Hector Hammond, would likely achieve the same or similar, were they to do the same thing.

Xavier has thrice harnessed mental energy on a planetary scale; to drive away the Z'nox, to attack Ego, the Living Planet, and to try and dissuade Galactus from consuming the Skrull throneworld.
He used to scan the cosmos for life before Magneto altered the Earth's magnetic fields to limit telepathic range. His telepathy has however traversed star systems.
They recently had him access the Universal Collective Unconsciousness.
His power spawned Onslaught, as well as a powerful Mummudrai, Cassandra Nova.
He battled Dark Phoenix on the Astral plane, and defeated her, albeit with the aid of Jean's good nature fighting to help him.
He was alongside Thanos and Adam Warlock fighting the Goddess, with his telepathy.

Until he does anything comparable to Xavier, then he doesn't rival Xavier.
Originally posted by Xplosive
Onslaught alone could do it.I quite doubt that.
Originally posted by Xplosive
Odin with gem could also do it alone.Depends upon how well he's allowed to wield the Reality Gem, and wield it in absence of the other Gems, in this thread.
Originally posted by Xplosive
Apocalypse is a non factor. Yes, he has defeated PE Ikaris, who is very powerful, he was actually better than HE, was also clearly match for Loki, but non of them are on Celestial level.

No, not really. As joke as Apocalypse can be, if he shows sometimes some great feat or power level, even those who hate Apocalypse aren't surprised by what he has done, because they realize he should be like the always as he was intended in the first place.

Actually mostly the hate towards Apocalypse comes because he isn't written as what he should be.
But when he does something great, no one is surprised, all know it's within his capabilities. Ikaris did nothing in that fight worthy of the title Prime Eternal. He barely did anything in that fight worthy of the species Eternal.

Originally posted by Alfheim
For real? I guess that kinda makes sense. Korvac got his powers from draining Galactus's ship so its just a matter how much power he can get.

You serioulsy think Odin with reality gem could do it alone? Hmmm I know The Gardener took on The Stranger with a gem but I dont think Stranger is anywhere near Celestial level.

How could Onslaught do it alone?

Onslaught power level goes beyond Celestial. Franklin Richards is equal to the Celestial, Onslaught had the total power of Franklin and under control.
He also had Magneto, Xavier and more importantly X-Man, who is extremely powerful.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Ikaris did nothing in that fight worthy of the title Prime Eternal. He barely did anything in that fight worthy of the species Eternal.

Or is that actually because PE Ikaris couldn't and didn't do anything, because he couldn't, Apocalypse didn't allow it. Apocalypse was written well and crushed him.
He couldn't do anything to Apocalypse. And looking the past, that Apocalypse fought HE and Loki, is no surprise he fought another powerful cosmic being and actually defeat him.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Of course this is contradicted by Jean in a another appearance telepathically holding him.

You mean by the end of The Search for Cyclops?

Wasn't that just because of the love bond between Cyke and Jean?

In the fight with Loki, Loki hits his head and falls down. Caliban attacks him. He gets trapped in a machine. The machine is broken, and Loki leaves. That is a shitty depiction of Loki.

In the fight with Ikaris, Ikaris flies at Apocalypse and punches him, he is caught in Apocalypse's hold, for some reason forgetting that like all Eternals he has the ability to teleport, and is stabbed through the stomach, at which point he also forgets, like all Eternals, he has the ability to regenerate. All the while forgetting other Eternal abilities, oh and forgetting that he's the Prime Eternal. He suffocates in space, when Sersi has survived before in space unaided, iirc. And has to be rescued by the other Eternals. That is a shitty depiction of an Eternal, and it is an especially shitty depiction of the Prime Eternal.

Originally posted by Evil_Ash
You mean by the end of The Search for Cyclops?

Wasn't that just because of the love bond between Cyke and Jean? It perhaps allowed an opening for controlling him as she did. An apt telepath however should have been able to counteract said control and avoid being ejected from a body.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The thing is though his mental powers don't rival Xavier's.


Well I think it does and i'll try and explain.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

-He is shown to have strong mental defenses in one instance; in which he incidentally appears to find Jean Grey's telepathy a novelty.


Yes thats true, but what did I say afterwards? Apoc clearly has telepathic powers because he read Ozys mind.

Now I know that him resisting Jean could be just a strong mind, but my point is that if he has telepathic powers (which he does) AND his mind is stronger than Jeans than he must have stronger telepathic powers than Jean.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Of course this is contradicted by Jean in a another appearance telepathically holding him.

Isnt that PIS? How is it that Apoc in a weakened state resisted Jean then all of a sudden cant take her. Thats the very defintion of PIS. You know they call Apocalypse Jobercalypse.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

-He has one somewhat ambiguous instance of a telepathic sucker punch which really doesn't give any gauge whatsoever as to the level of telepathic power nor skill; as telepaths themselves are not immune to telepathy anyway nor do they constantly defend from telepathic attack. A psiblast is a relatively crude use of telepathy, any telepath from a random Morlock to Hector Hammond, would likely achieve the same or similar, were they to do the same thing.

Yes and you gave an example of Emma stunning Nate, but I got the impresssion that you agreed that she had to be powerful to hurt Nate. Also in my opinion that was a mindblast, if you dont think it was fine.


Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Xavier has thrice harnessed mental energy on a planetary scale; to drive away the Z'nox, to attack Ego, the Living Planet, and to try and dissuade Galactus from consuming the Skrull throneworld.
He used to scan the cosmos for life before Magneto altered the Earth's magnetic fields to limit telepathic range. His telepathy has however traversed star systems.
They recently had him access the Universal Collective Unconsciousness.
His power spawned Onslaught, as well as a powerful Mummudrai, Cassandra Nova.
He battled Dark Phoenix on the Astral plane, and defeated her, albeit with the aid of Jean's good nature fighting to help him.
He was alongside Thanos and Adam Warlock fighting the Goddess, with his telepathy.

Until he does anything comparable to Xavier, then he doesn't rival Xavier.


Ok let me summarise. Isnt Jean Grey almost as powerful as Xavier? If Apoc can resist her mind in a weakened state that shows he has a strong mind. Now we know that he has telepathic powers (reading Ozys mind), logic dictates that he must therefore have powers greater than Jeans.

Now if he has powers greater than Jean it implies to me that even if he is not stronger than Xavier he will give him a run for his money.

Didnt Apoc mind control the inhumans including a powerful psychic?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Ikaris did nothing in that fight worthy of the title Prime Eternal. He barely did anything in that fight worthy of the species Eternal.

You are just basing that on the stabbing. Even if you think he should have regnerated from the stabbing quicker there is nothing to say that the rest of the fight was badly written. Its only badly written because you dont think Ikaris should have lost. Apoc has Celestial tech...AND Ikaris has stated that they have fought many times before, this therefore indicates that Apoc is on Ikaris's level.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Onslaught power level goes beyond Celestial. Franklin Richards is equal to the Celestial, Onslaught had the total power of Franklin and under control.
He also had Magneto, Xavier and more importantly X-Man, who is extremely powerful.




Yes Onslaught needed Franklin and Nates power to become more powerful than a Celestial. In this thread he just has Xaviers and Magnetos.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Now I know that him resisting Jean could be just a strong mind, but my point is that if he has telepathic powers (which he does) AND his mind is stronger than Jeans than he must have stronger telepathic powers than Jean. That's not particularly logical. You're somehow jumping from having the ability to read minds, or some other mild telepathy and also having strong psychic defenses (although again one should note that Apocalypse regards Jean's telepathy as a novelty - thus indicating he doesn't actually have telepathy at all in that feat), to somehow equating to being a formidable telepath.

Magneto has a strong mind, he has formidable psychic defenses and is a weak telepath.

Having formidable psychic defenses is one thing.
Having some telepathic ability is one thing.
One does not imply the level of the other.

All this coupled with the fact that Apocalypse has next to no telepathic feats, and certainly none that would put him at Xavier's level. Or even Jean's level. He has a psiblast. That's about it. Actually, no, that is it.

This:
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/1714/newmutantsannual0433be5.th.jpg
doesn't make Emma Frost a telekinetic.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes and you gave an example of Emma stunning Nate, but I got the impresssion that you agreed that she had to be powerful to hurt Nate.I gave the example to show that a relatively inferior telepath can harm a superior telepath with a psiblast, not because they are particularly strong - although Emma may be a good telepath she is nowhere near Nate - but because telepaths are not themselves immune to telepathy.

Because as noted above, having strong telepathic ability does not mean one necessarily has strong passive mental defense. No vice versa.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok let me summarise. Isnt Jean Grey almost as powerful as Xavier? If Apoc can resist her mind in a weakened state that shows he has a strong mind. Now we know that he has telepathic powers (reading Ozys mind), logic dictates that he must therefore have powers greater than Jeans.

Now if he has powers greater than Jean it implies to me that even if he is not stronger than Xavier he will give him a run for his money.Sans Phoenix, Jean never really had any feats that would put her near Xavier that I recall. See above - you're making a massive leap. The Jean incident doesn't imply telepathic ability stronger than Jean (it in fact implies no telepathic abilities) just strong mental defenses.Originally posted by Alfheim
Didnt Apoc mind control the inhumans including a powerful psychic?No that's a misconception propagated by some, the Inhumans were brainwashed, technologically iirc, they were not actively mind-controlled via telepathic means.
Originally posted by Alfheim
You are just basing that on the stabbing. Even if you think he should have regnerated from the stabbing quicker there is nothing to say that the rest of the fight was badly written. Its only badly written because you dont think Ikaris should have lost. Apoc has Celestial tech...AND Ikaris has stated that they have fought many times before, this therefore indicates that Apoc is on Ikaris's level.I gave reasoning as to why the I find Ikaris written as an idiot. I see no problem with Apocalypse being on Ikaris, the ordinary Eternal's level, he is in no way on par with a Prime Eternal though - my only problem with the Ikaris fight is that whenever it's brought up it's generally stated as Apocalypse besting the Prime Eternal. Also why do people write "Apocalypse has Celestial Tech," as if it's supposed to be some standalone argument.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
In the fight with Loki, Loki hits his head and falls down. Caliban attacks him. He gets trapped in a machine. The machine is broken, and Loki leaves. That is a shitty depiction of Loki.

In the fight with Ikaris, Ikaris flies at Apocalypse and punches him, he is caught in Apocalypse's hold, for some reason forgetting that like all Eternals he has the ability to teleport, and is stabbed through the stomach, at which point he also forgets, like all Eternals, he has the ability to regenerate. All the while forgetting other Eternal abilities, oh and forgetting that he's the Prime Eternal. He suffocates in space, when Sersi has survived before in space unaided, iirc. And has to be rescued by the other Eternals. That is a shitty depiction of an Eternal, and it is an especially shitty depiction of the Prime Eternal.

But did Ikaris even think about teleporting? He could have been trying to physically free himself from Apoc's bear hug. Anyway I believe Apoc stabbed him right away he got a hold of him, so he didn't have an moment to try teleporting....

Originally posted by Alfheim
Isnt that PIS? How is it that Apoc in a weakened state resisted Jean then all of a sudden cant take her.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/HAL10WEEN/Search_for_Cyclops_n4-p20.jpg

I think it's PIS. Because before this, he actually does resist Jean Grey and Cyclops' love bond...

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/HAL10WEEN/cycloewresist.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/HAL10WEEN/cycloewresist2.jpg

Originally posted by Evil_Ash
But did Ikaris even think about teleporting? He could have been trying to physically free himself from Apoc's bear hug. Anyway I believe Apoc stabbed him right away he got a hold of him, so he didn't have an moment to try teleporting....

Well this is the thing. Ikaris clearly didnt expect to get bear hugged, clearly if Apoc took all day to hug him Iakris would have freed himself, but I think Ikaris didnt because:

1. He was in pain.
2. It happened too fast.



Originally posted by Evil_Ash

I think it's PIS. Because before this, he actually does resist Jean Grey and Cyclops' love bond...



There you go then.

Originally posted by Evil_Ash
But did Ikaris even think about teleporting?Sort of my point... Originally posted by Evil_Ash
He could have been trying to physically free himself from Apoc's bear hug.Why bother when one has the ability to teleport.Originally posted by Evil_Ash
Anyway I believe Apoc stabbed him right away he got a hold of him, so he didn't have an moment to try teleporting.... No he goes on a little spiel about The Twelve first.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Sort of my point... Why bother when one has the ability to teleport.No he goes on a little spiel about The Twelve first.

He was obviously in pain and couldn't teleport, couldn't concentrate enough.
And it was fast, Apocalypse immediately made a hole through him.

the reality gem is not enough to fight a cosmic being, thanos needed all to combat these forces

and apoc would get cooked for acting in person against the celestials

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes Onslaught needed Franklin and Nates power to become more powerful than a Celestial. In this thread he just has Xaviers and Magnetos.

Then is also Onslaught a non factor here.
Still, Odin with gem and Korvac wil take a Celestial down.

Originally posted by Xplosive
He was obviously in pain and couldn't teleport, couldn't concentrate enough.
And it was fast, Apocalypse immediately made a hole through him. Or you know it was obviously bad writing. Have you even ever seen any appearances of the Eternals outside of this one-shot comic?

Originally posted by Xplosive
He was obviously in pain and couldn't teleport, couldn't concentrate enough.
And it was fast, Apocalypse immediately made a hole through him. It's a good thing he doesn't have... molecular control over his body, or something crazy like that... ermm

Originally posted by Tyrant
It's a good thing he doesn't have... molecular control over his body, or something crazy like that... ermm
droolio

And this thread shows WHY I hate teh Filthy Muties.

Anyway team wins, Korvac jacks everyones power and then b*tchslaps the Celestial. Much like in his What-If.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
That's not particularly logical. You're somehow jumping from having the ability to read minds, or some other mild telepathy and also having strong psychic defenses (although again one should note that Apocalypse regards Jean's telepathy as a novelty - thus indicating he doesn't actually have telepathy at all in that feat), to somehow equating to being a formidable telepath.

Magneto has a strong mind, he has formidable psychic defenses and is a weak telepath.

Having formidable psychic defenses is one thing.
Having some telepathic ability is one thing.
One does not imply the level of the other.

All this coupled with the fact that Apocalypse has next to no telepathic feats, and certainly none that would put him at Xavier's level. Or even Jean's level. He has a psiblast. That's about it. Actually, no, that is it.

This:
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/1714/newmutantsannual0433be5.th.jpg
doesn't make Emma Frost a telekinetic.
I gave the example to show that a relatively inferior telepath can harm a superior telepath with a psiblast, not because they are particularly strong - although Emma may be a good telepath she is nowhere near Nate - but because telepaths are not themselves immune to telepathy.

Because as noted above, having strong telepathic ability does not mean one necessarily has strong passive mental defense. No vice versa.
Sans Phoenix, Jean never really had any feats that would put her near Xavier that I recall. See above - you're making a massive leap. The Jean incident doesn't imply telepathic ability stronger than Jean (it in fact implies no telepathic abilities) just strong mental defenses.No that's a misconception propagated by some, the Inhumans were brainwashed, technologically iirc, they were not actively mind-controlled via telepathic means.

Well ok, well anyway there are scans of Apoc beating Jeans mind control and using Scott against her.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

I gave reasoning as to why the I find Ikaris written as an idiot. I see no problem with Apocalypse being on Ikaris, the ordinary Eternal's level, he is in no way on par with a Prime Eternal though - my only problem with the Ikaris fight is that whenever it's brought up it's generally stated as Apocalypse besting the Prime Eternal. Also why do people write "Apocalypse has Celestial Tech," as if it's supposed to be some standalone argument.

Well anyway Ikaris said they have fought many times.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well ok, well anyway there are scans of Apoc beating Jeans mind control and using Scott against her.Which is again mental resistance...
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well anyway Ikaris said they have fought many times. And the only on panel fight has Ikaris forgetting most of his powers, and using the ones he did use stupidly or limitedly.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Which is again mental resistance...

...yeah and the bit where he mind controlled Cyclops while resisting her at the same time. So its mind control AND mental resistance.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

And the only on panel fight has Ikaris forgetting most of his powers, and using the ones he did use stupidly or limitedly.

Which means that its badly written. Its not badly written because Apoc beat him it badly written because of how Apoc beat him.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
And the only on panel fight has Ikaris forgetting most of his powers, and using the ones he did use stupidly or limitedly.

Oh, and Apocalypse showed all his powers, right?

Has Apocalypse used all his power in all of his encounters?
Has he used all his powers against Loki or HE?

No, he hasn't.
Has he used all his powers in his recent in his last appearance in X-Men? No, far from it.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well anyway Ikaris said they have fought many times.

xmarksthespot has always something against Apocalypse when he does something worth mentioning.

Originally posted by Alfheim
...yeah and the bit where he mind controlled Cyclops while resisting her at the same time. So its mind control AND mental resistance.His essence is literally in Scott, using him as a host and cohabiting his mind. It's not mind control.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Which means that its badly written. Its not badly written because Apoc beat him it badly written because of how Apoc beat him. ... I've been saying that.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
His essence is literally in Scott, using him as a host and cohabiting his mind. It's not mind control.


That sounds like a form of mind control, please elaborate. It seemed that Apôc was in two places at the same time.


Originally posted by xmarksthespot

... I've been saying that.

Ok.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Oh, and Apocalypse showed all his powers, right?

Has Apocalypse used all his power in all of his encounters?
Has he used all his powers against Loki or HE?

No, he hasn't.
Has he used all his powers in his recent in his last appearance in X-Men? No, far from it.Exactly what powers does Apocalypse not use, that he so regularly has before - in the same way as an Eternal who regularly teleports and regularly regenerates, and is now the Prime Eternal, not using teleportation or regeneration; or Loki who has had his head cut off completely and was basically fine, hitting his head and falling to the ground then getting scratched at by Caliban. Do tell.

Apocalypse, has sporadic one-time feats akin to Emma hurling away someone with a teke bolt.
Originally posted by Xplosive
xmarksthespot has always something against Apocalypse when he does something worth mentioning. And you're always there tissues at the ready. doped

Originally posted by Alfheim
That sounds like a form of mind control, please elaborate. It seemed that Apôc was in two places at the same time. Which scan are you referring to exactly? The ones that Evil_Ash posted on the previous page?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Which scan are you referring to exactly? The ones that Evil_Ash posted on the previous page?

Yes.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes. Those are from the Search for Cyclops, after The Twelve, where Cyclops' body was used as a host body. He isn't at two places at the same time his essence is in Cyclops.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Those are from the Search for Cyclops, after The Twelve, where Cyclops' body was used as a host body. He isn't at two places at the same time his essence is in Cyclops.

Oh right so that funny looking guy black guy with one eye isnt Apoc? I thought I saw in his respect thread that was one of Apocs forms.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Oh right so that funny looking guy black guy with one eye isnt Apoc? I thought I saw in his respect thread that was one of Apocs forms. The order in which Evil_Ash posted the scans isn't consecutive.

The latter two scans occur before the first scan posted with Cyclopolypse. In between them Cyclops body changes into the black thing, with the ruby visor eye.

Also the scans do not necessarily contradict, they can simply imply Jean first took the gentle approach, was rebuffed, then took her kid gloves off later and succeeded in holding and expelling his his essence.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The order in which Evil_Ash posted the scans isn't consecutive.

The latter two scans occur before the first scan posted with Cyclopolypse. In between them Cyclops body changes into the black thing, with the ruby visor eye.

Thats wack.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The order in which Evil_Ash posted the scans isn't consecutive.

The latter two scans occur before the first scan posted with Cyclopolypse. In between them Cyclops body changes into the black thing, with the ruby visor eye.

Also the scans do not necessarily contradict, they can simply imply Jean first took the gentle approach, was rebuffed, then took her kid gloves off later and succeeded in holding and expelling his his essence.

I beleive in between the scans Evil Ash said this

"I think it's PIS. Because before this, he actually does resist Jean Grey and Cyclops' love bond..."

So he actually tells us the scans are out of order....just letting everyone know,he was not doing anything sneaky or anything

bump

A Celestail still wins, Korvac was scared of the Celestails and tried and fail to read a Celestail mind. Celestail can bend time and space and warp reality at whim, and have one gem doesn't make you a cosmic juggernaut. Even Adam warlock had the soul gem there where beings below or skyfather he couldn't soul steal.

Originally posted by the Darkone
A Celestail still wins, Korvac was scared of the Celestails and tried and fail to read a Celestail mind. Celestail can bend time and space and warp reality at whim, and have one gem doesn't make you a cosmic juggernaut. Even Adam warlock had the soul gem there where beings below or skyfather he couldn't soul steal.


Korvac can warp reality at a whim. Odin is more powerful than Adam Warlock and he has Onslaught, Apoc + a week prep backing him up. Im hoping that Onlsaught can merge with the others to become Celestail level.

Originally posted by the Darkone
A Celestail still wins, Korvac was scared of the Celestails and tried and fail to read a Celestail mind. Celestail can bend time and space and warp reality at whim, and have one gem doesn't make you a cosmic juggernaut. Even Adam warlock had the soul gem there where beings below or skyfather he couldn't soul steal.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Korvac can warp reality at a whim. Odin is more powerful than Adam Warlock and he has Onslaught, Apoc + a week prep backing him up. Im hoping that Onlsaught can merge with the others to become Celestail level.


^^ are you talking about, you are grasping for straws. Celestail warp reality on universal scale, Odin will still lose regardless if he does have a gem, Celestail will strip Apocalypse of the Celestail tech and they let him have it and they can take it away. Give it a rest one Celestail pawns them, even evil molecule man will a$$ rape them.

Originally posted by the Darkone
^^ are you talking about, you are grasping for straws. Celestail warp reality on universal scale, Odin will still lose regardless if he does have a gem, Celestail will strip Apocalypse of the Celestail tech and they let him have it and they can take it away. Give it a rest one Celestail pawns them, even evil molecule man will a$$ rape them.


Not really bare in mind that Odin and The Asagardians used the destroyer and survived for a bit against a gorup of celestials. If it was one celestial they would have lasted longer. Also Onslaught has been able to amp himself to Celestial levels by absorbing Nate and Franklin. So if this group use the Asagardian destroyer they should last longer and at least give a good fight.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Not really bare in mind that Odin and The Asagardians used the destroyer and survived for a bit against a gorup of celestials. If it was one celestial they would have lasted longer. Also Onslaught has been able to amp himself to Celestial levels by absorbing Nate and Franklin. So if this group use the Asagardian destroyer they should last longer and at least give a good fight.


Are f**king serious, The Celestails where toying with the Destroyer and every time the Destroyer was getting hit it was getting f**ked up,if they had the destroyer and they will still get f**ked up, a Celestail freeze time, or Celestail can teleport them to the Celestail home world for kicks.