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hmm

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/9496/fantasticforceno011p22er4.th.jpg

Vanguard from Image?

Originally posted by guy222


1. Merlyn
2. Time Keepers (using their Forever Crystal)
3. Vangaard
4. Beyonder (current)

Originally posted by Jack Harkness
Vanguard from Image?

From Fantastic Force

Originally posted by guy222
From Fantastic Force

Merlyn wins

wavey

Merlyn FTW

Merlyn for the win.

Btw master out of interest, why do you place the Time keepers above Vangaard?

Originally posted by Utrigita

Btw master out of interest, why do you place the Time keepers above Vangaard?
When this thread was made,
I wasn't fully aware of just how powerful these beings were,
in fact, I underestimated them cause I had only a piece of all the info.

In actuality, these beings are a sleeping giant in Marvel.

I've since learned they wiped out countless realities once in a few seconds,
they were the ones that authorized Uatu's ability to view all timelines,
they have absolute sovereignty over the time stream,
they're influence/command over time is so incontrovertible,
that not even the LT has authority over them. (they claim)

But it may be true,
cause they are to be the last survivors of everything, as in everything,
and this is a fact, cause the last member of the TVA witnessed this by peering into the future,
in fact,
it's in their destiny to shape the next reality. (Marvelverse)


I'm going to continue to read up on the rest of their seldom appearances,
see if I can get a few more juicy details.

But these cats are no joke.

Sleeping giants indeed a few questions though.

I thought it was a commen ability among the watchers that they could watch more then one reality at the time?

I find it hard to believe that they is above LT's judgement so far no being has been (that LT has been powerless against Thanos with the heart and Protege is another side of the story) more likely they maintain some kind of agreement with him, they erased as you said yourself countless realities obviously they serve some purpose just like the Organization that watches the entire marvel omniverse. from my point of view LT steps in when there is no other that can correct the inbalance, just a theory master.

Marvel needs to feature the Time Keepers more

Originally posted by Utrigita

I thought it was a commen ability among the watchers
that they could watch more then one reality at the time?

We learn as we go.

What I didn't know
was that Uatu actually vouches the story
of them being the last beings that outlast the end of everything:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/462593_TK1.jpg http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/462594_TK2.jpg

I also didn't know
they can take away the Watchers' ability to continue with their purpose.

Thanx for making me flip some pages, I'm learning over here too.
Originally posted by Utrigita

I find it hard to believe that they is above LT's judgement so far no being has been (that LT has been powerless against Thanos with the heart and Protege is another side of the story) more likely they maintain some kind of agreement with him
Well, I have no idea where they stand in comparison with the LT in power,
my guess would be they are below the LT,
but being outside his authority is another story.

As you know,
all Conceptual abstract embodiments are outside the LT's authority.

They're not = or more powerful than LT,
but LT can't interfere with their purpose of existence.

This is why cats like Abraxas & Entropy are permitted to wipe out Reality.
Originally posted by Utrigita

they erased as you said yourself countless realities obviously they serve some purpose just like the Organization that watches the entire marvel omniverse.
Right,
the TVA and the Time Keepers operate under their own command and jurisdiction,
and I don't see a problem with it cause it's for the benefit of all reality.
Originally posted by Utrigita

from my point of view
LT steps in when there is no other that can correct the inbalance,
just a theory master.
True, but it has to be an imbalance of power.

The Time Keepers < Akhenaton:

http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/1232/tk1ac7.th.jpg

See them trapped in the orb full of Akhenaton's time traveling enemies?

Originally posted by Galan007

The Time Keepers < Akhenaton:

See them trapped in the orb full of Akhenaton's time traveling enemies?
Ok. I knew that but, no one mentioned Ak good friend.

Ak was tapping the power of God.

That's a whole other ball game.
(although Ak now exists as a harmless butterfly)

Originally posted by Mr Master
Ok. I knew that but, no one mentioned Ak good friend.

Ak was tapping the power of God.

That's a whole other ball game. Ohh, I agree (just trying to gauge them).

imo, LT > Akhenaton > TK'ers. Yes? No?

Originally posted by Galan007

Ohh, I agree (just trying to gauge them).
Cool.
Originally posted by Galan007

imo, LT > Akhenaton > TK'ers. Yes? No?
hmm .. now that's an interesting observation.

Imo I stated that the LT should be above the TK in power,
just that he simply has no authority over them.
But that's inconsequential cause they will never have a reason to quarrel,
both have designated set duties which serve reality.

But this is juicy,
was LT above Ak?

To be honest, I'm not sure, darn, I've never given that one thought.
Ak seemed all powerful,
all powerful even though he was just tapping the power.
As we know only a merged Thanos proved greater.

hmm ...

I'm left at hmm ...

I'm lost for words .. good one G, real good.

Originally posted by Mr Master
But this is juicy,
was LT above Ak?

To be honest, I'm not sure, darn, I've never given that one thought.
Ak seemed all powerful,
all powerful even though he was just tapping the power.
As we know only a merged Thanos proved greater.

hmm ...

I'm left at hmm ...

I'm lost for words .. good one G, real good. I'm somewhat torn there as well. I only put LT higher because I don't recall Akhenaton beating a character =/> Eternity. *shrug*

Originally posted by Galan007

I'm somewhat torn there as well.
I'm with ya, although imo, I'll lean towards Ak,
simply because he was tapping that power that is above even the LT.

Was he tapping enough of it though?

That's the 64,000$ question,
then again, does it matter,
considering it's God's power?

Not imo ... so I'll say (although without absoluteness) he was > LT.
Originally posted by Galan007

I only put LT higher because I don't recall Akhenaton beating a character =/> Eternity. *shrug*
Well he blinded Eternity and Infinity effortlessly,
(not necessarily to hurt them though)
and there was nothing they could do about it, Chaos & Order were also helpless,
so he was definitely above them all.

He didn't destroy them cause as you know, that wasn't his mission,
he actually wanted to bring his notion of peace to all reality,
but with an iron hand.

I would put LT above AK and TK

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well he blinded Eternity and Infinity effortlessly,
(not necessarily to hurt them though)
and there was nothing they could do about it, Chaos & Order were also helpless,
so he was definitely above them all.

He didn't destroy them cause as you know, that wasn't his mission,
he actually wanted to bring his notion of peace to all reality,
but with an iron hand. This is just a really tuff one. All I'm getting is an "Error 404 Not Found" prompt, when I close my eyes. ha-son

Originally posted by guy222

I would put LT above AK
I don't know guy,
remember, Ak wasn't just tapping, he literally mastered it's power.
That's mastering the power of God. (God's power ... far above the LT)

The next step was merging, which Thanos did.

Originally posted by Galan007

Could very well be.
I admit, I'm not speaking in definites here.
Originally posted by Galan007

This is just a really tuff one. All I'm getting is an "Error 404 Not Found" prompt, when I close my eyes. ha-son

Ok, I got a definitive answer to the question:

LT or Ak?

Well, they both got owned lovely by Thanos/HOTI,
but Ak lasted longer, so Ak > LT
not to mention LT attacked Thanos with the Marvel Universe helping him,
while Ak took on Thanos alone:


Akhenaten vs Thanos/HOTI:


http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/463018_ak1.jpg

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/463019_ak2.jpg

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/463020_ak3.jpg

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/463021_ak4.jpg

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/463022_ak5.jpg



========================================



LT and company vs Thanos/HOTI:


http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/463023_LT1.jpg http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/463024_LT2.jpg http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/463025_LT3.jpg


Yea, definitely Ak > LT

I knew it, I mean, he had mastered God's power.

But Thanos had merged. 131

Ak blasted Thanos twice, and withstood an eye beam, before being owned. How does that make him > LT? Also, Thanos had just merged with the heart a few pages before the Ak battle. He may have not yet been adept at using said power - or may have simply wanted to toy with Ak for a bit. Who knows?

At any rate, I'm not saying LT is indisputably > than Ak or anything. I Just don't think the above scans prove much. *shrug*

From my point of view tapping into the power of the heart is one thing, merging with the heart is a different scenario all together, with the merging you gain all the power, when you control/tap from a range you shouldn't gain access to near the level that a merged being has.

Just a observation.

Originally posted by Mr Master
We learn as we go.

What I didn't know
was that Uatu actually vouches the story
of them being the last beings that outlast the end of everything:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/462593_TK1.jpg http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/462594_TK2.jpg

I also didn't know
they can take away the Watchers' ability to continue with their purpose.

Thanx for making me flip some pages, I'm learning over here too.

Well, I have no idea where they stand in comparison with the LT in power,
my guess would be they are below the LT,
but being outside his authority is another story.

As you know,
all Conceptual abstract embodiments are outside the LT's authority.

They're not = or more powerful than LT,
but LT can't interfere with their purpose of existence.

This is why cats like Abraxas & Entropy are permitted to wipe out Reality.

Right,
the TVA and the Time Keepers operate under their own command and jurisdiction,
and I don't see a problem with it cause it's for the benefit of all reality.

True, but it has to be an imbalance of power.

Originally posted by Galan007

Ak blasted Thanos twice, and withstood an eye beam, before being owned.

How does that make him > LT?
How?

Well, besides the fact that it was Ak alone vs Thanos,
Ak took 2 hits, and finally a third one warped him into a butterfly.

So that's 3 attacks in order to own Ak.


LT, with the rest of the Marvel Universe combined,
got owned in one swoop.

That's how imo.
Originally posted by Galan007

Also, Thanos had just merged with the heart a few pages before the Ak battle. He may have not yet been adept at using said power -
or may have simply wanted to toy with Ak for a bit. Who knows?
Plausible, but more speculation than possibility.

On the other hand,
it's a fact that Ak alone lasted longer than LT and the Marvel Universe combined.
Originally posted by Galan007

At any rate, I'm not saying LT is indisputably > than Ak or anything.
I Just don't think the above scans prove much. *shrug*
Cool brother, imo, they do though, quite convincingly I might add.

Originally posted by Utrigita

From my point of view tapping into the power of the heart is one thing, merging with the heart is a different scenario all together, with the merging you gain all the power, when you control/tap from a range you shouldn't gain access to near the level that a merged being has.

Just a observation.
That's not an observation good friend, your point of view is a fact.

Which is why Thanos (merged) was able to defeat Ak in 3 attacks.

Grant it, Thanos could've removed Ak's connection to the Heart,
and that would've ended the battle in a snap,
but since Thanos allowed Ak to continue tapping the Heart,
Ak was able to endure 2 attacks before getting owned on a third attack.

My point was master, that because Ak taps into the power of the heart he still wouldn't by definition be above LT, tapping into the power of the heart and having absolute control of the heart is two different things from my point of view.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Ak took 2 hits, and finally a third one warped him into a butterfly.

So that's 3 attacks in order to own Ak. Thanos didn't want to one-shot Ak. Thanos wanted Ak to see what he'd become. To see the power he then possessed. Much different than the uninhibited rage Thanos unleashed when he owned LT/the MU.

Originally posted by Mr Master
LT, with the rest of the Marvel Universe combined,
got owned in one swoop.

On the other hand,
it's a fact that Ak alone lasted longer than LT and the Marvel Universe combined. Thanos' train of thought when he 'battled' Ak, was entirely different than when he owned LT.

He wanted Ak to see his power. He allowed him to last longer:

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/259/t1jx8.th.jpg

"I could have been merciful, I suppose."
"A mere thought would have denied Ak access to the Heart's power."
"But I wanted him to realize the full extent of his downfall."


So not only could Thanos have depowered/beaten Ak - but he could've done so with a thought. He simply chose not too .


======


This is an entirely mind-set, than when he absorbed LT, and the MU:

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/8563/t2nt1.th.jpg http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/1669/t3sf3.th.jpg

It was Thanos' will in the above instance, that everyone/everything was to be destroyed asap. Thus, LT was owned in the way he was.

Two entirely different frames of mind = two entirely different displays of power. Not overly debatable, imo

Originally posted by Mr Master
Cool brother, imo, they do though, quite convincingly I might add. Not really. At all, imo.

On another note, I see you took the resolution bar off your imageshack scans. Copy cat!

Originally posted by Galan007

Thanos didn't want to one-shot Ak. Thanos wanted Ak to see what he'd become. To see the power he then possessed. Much different than the uninhibited rage Thanos unleashed when he owned LT/the MU.

Thanos' train of thought when he 'battled' Ak, was entirely different than when he owned LT.

He wanted Ak to see his power. He allowed him to last longer:

"I could have been merciful, I suppose."
"A mere thought would have denied Ak access to the Heart's power."
"But I wanted him to realize the full extent of his downfall."

So not only could Thanos have depowered/beaten Ak - but he could've done so with a thought. He simply chose not too .

======

This is an entirely mind-set, than when he absorbed LT, and the MU:

It was Thanos' will in the above instance, that everyone/everything was to be destroyed asap. Thus, LT was owned in the way he was.

Two entirely different frames of mind = two entirely different displays of power. Not overly debatable, imo either.

Not really. At all, imo either.
I could've posted that for ya brother:
Originally posted by Mr Master

Grant it, Thanos could've removed Ak's connection to the Heart,
and that would've ended the battle in a snap,

but since Thanos allowed Ak to continue tapping the Heart,
Ak was able to endure 2 attacks before getting owned on a third attack.
Still at the same juncture, there's no evidence that Thanos allowed Ak to last longer,
only evidence is that he allowed Ak to stay connected to the Heart,
and that is what made him last longer.

Ak, while connected to the Heart,
lasted longer than the LT and the Marvel Universe combined.

Not overly debatable, imo either.

Not really. At all, imo either.
Originally posted by Galan

On another note,
I see you took the resolution bar off your imageshack scans. Copy cat!

Originally posted by Mr Master
there's no evidence that Thanos allowed Ak to last longer,
only evidence is that he allowed Ak to stay connected to the Heart,
and that is what made him last longer. none

Originally posted by Galan007
none
none

And if survivng a b*tchslap + an eye beam from Thanos, makes one > LT - these heroes must be uber as hell:

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/6463/t1pg4.th.jpg

none

Yeah, can't say I agree with the logic - but it's yours, and you're not gonna budge .

Originally posted by Galan007

And if survivng a b*tchslap + an eye beam from Thanos,
makes one > LT - these heroes must be uber as hell:
You forgot the rest of that scan where a Celestial gets blown in two.

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/469500_THO.jpg

So yea, it seems those heroes are uber as hell.

Or it could be, that in that gesture, he wasn't really trying to kill heroes at that point.


Unless you think Spiderman and Yellowjacket > Ziran the Celestial. hm

Originally posted by Galan007

Yeah, can't say I agree with the logic - but it's yours,
and you're not gonna budge .
Yeah, can't say I agree with that logic either - but it's yours,
and you're not gonna budge either

Originally posted by Mr Master
Or it could be, that in that gesture, he wasn't really trying to kill heroes at point. I could just as easily say Thanos wasn't trying to kill Ak with his slap + eye-beam, as all you have to suggest otherwise, is your own opinion.

But meh, there's no need to delve further into such ridiculiusness.

Originally posted by Galan007

I could just as easily say Thanos wasn't trying to kill Ak with his slap + eye-beam, as all you have to suggest otherwise, is your own opinion.
I could just as easily say
Ak endured Thanos' two attacks cause he was connected to the Heart,
unlike Ziran who got one-shotted to death,
and Thanos was not in a rage when he killed Ziran,
which was your opinion as to why the LT and Co. got owned in one swoop.

So, all you have to suggest otherwise, is your own opinion likewise.

Originally posted by Galan007

But meh, there's no need to delve further into such ridiculiusness.
... Ridiculousness is never fun.

=====================================


I'm not surprised Akhenaten was possibly more powerful than the LT,
after all,
he literally mastered THOTI's power: (TOAA's power ... mastered)


On Panel:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/469534_Ak1.jpg



This fact is 100% canon: (excerpt from Ak's Handbook bio)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/469535_Ak2.jpg


The next step was merging with the Heart,
and this is why Thanos was above him.


=====================================


I respect your personal view on this too G, as always.

Just that our opinions differ on this one, no biggi, still lova ya. friends

I can possibly misunderstand this completely but didn't the order use technology to draw out the energy of the heart because tapping directly into the hearts power would kill them? Wasn't that one of the sources that Ak has access to?

Originally posted by Mr Master
I respect your personal view on this too G, as always.

Just that our opinions differ on this one, no biggi, still lova ya. friends Fo shiz.

Claremont really jacked up Merlyn's legacy

Love to see the TK and waiting on baited breath for the Inhuman Beyonder

Vangaard was intriguing

Learn as we go friends

Pre Retcon Fulcrum(TOAA)>LT

LT>TK W/FC

Marvel hasn't chosen a direction for the Inhuman Mutant