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Based on what we see in the movies, which of the two force users would you consider more powerful, specifically in terms of their mastery of the force and the power with which they can wield it? Post reasons.

Count Dooku. He managed to fight both Anakin and Obi-Wan and used the Force to take out Obi-Wan.

So he essentially caught Obi-Wan off guard while duelling him with some force manoeuvres. The superiority in the respect I'm dealing with is... where?

Originally posted by nmensfinest
So he essentially caught Obi-Wan off guard while duelling him with some force manoeuvres. The superiority in the respect I'm dealing with is... where?

You can find that superiority you're looking for in AOTC.

They have a straight-up one on one duel without force powers, and Dooku WtFpWnZ Obi-wan. He slices his leg and arm, and had Anakin not intervened would've cut his head clean off.

Wow... Where do I start? Firstly, you're forming a comparison between Dooku and Obi-Wan before gaining three years of war experience and growing in power to the point where he can throw Grievous around with ease. Secondly, I made it perfectly clear that this thread was comparing their force prowess. All that your post proved was that Dooku appeared to be a superior saber duelist than a weaker version of Obi-Wan than the version I'm dealing with. Try again.

Originally posted by nmensfinest
Based on what we see in the movies, which of the two force users would you consider more powerful, specifically in terms of their mastery of the force and the power with which they can wield it? Post reasons. Dooku was one of the finest swordsmen of the Prequel-era Order. He was on par with Mace Windu. And you better not come up with some bologna that Kenobi could defeat Mace.

One on One in AOTC, no surprise ambushes or anything, Dooku WTFpwned Kenobi with total ease.

In ROTS he boots away Anakin, grabs Kenobi by the neck and chucks him across room only to bring an entire balcony down upon him.

Based solely on the movies, Dooku is more powerful in the Force and in saber combat.

Originally posted by nmensfinest
Wow... Where do I start? Firstly, you're forming a comparison between Dooku and Obi-Wan before gaining three years of war experience and growing in power to the point where he can throw Grievous around with ease. Secondly, I made it perfectly clear that this thread was comparing their force prowess. All that your post proved was that Dooku appeared to be a superior saber duelist than a weaker version of Obi-Wan than the version I'm dealing with. Try again.

I misunderstood. I thought you meant which of them was better overall.

You should see the post above mine, TG makes it clear that even your "advanced 3 years" Kenobi gets PwNt by Dooks in ROTS, even WITH anakin helping him.

Force choke to force throw to force drop of balcony: CHECKMATE.


Sabers or Force... Dooku is better than Kenobi.










And don't ever post that way to me again you little pissant n00b.

In addition to what the others said, Obi-wan himself even admitted (in AOTC) to Anakin that he couldn't beat Count Dooku alone, and that he needed his help. What more proof do you need?

And pretty much the only reason Obi-wan was able to beat Anakin on Mustafar because because he was the one who trained him and knew how he fought. That wasn't the case with Dooku, so Obi-wan lost against him (twice) as a result.

Obi-wan's a cool character and all, but I think you're overestimating him, nmensfinest.

biggest no brainer of all time. Dookue made Obi wan his lady in both duels.

hehehe

dooku beat him twice. the movies showed us who is superior. dooku also fought obi and anakin. i mean two on one yeah thats real fair.

do some of u want want a third bout to determine?

i hope not. dooku wins this hands down.

Umm...Doouku.

Dooku. Duh.

I think it is unanimous.

Naturally Master Obi-Wan Kenobi is more powerful. you do not here about Count Dooku in Episodes in episodes 3,4,5,6. but on the other hand hand you here of Obi-Wan through out.

Of course it's Old Ben.

Dooku had age experience with the force. Obiwan was still fairly young

Originally posted by nmensfinest
So he essentially caught Obi-Wan off guard while duelling him with some force manoeuvres. The superiority in the respect I'm dealing with is... where?

He wasn't just dueling Obi-Wan. He was also against Anakin. He used the Force to take out Obi-Wan during the duel.

It's a no-brainer. Dooku is the clear-cut winner here. In addition to the many great reasons above, there is also the fact that Obi-Wan BARELY beat Maul and Grievious when it was down to one on one. He actually beat them both the same way: He had the fight lost and found a weapon laying on the ground that he used to "sucker punch" his opponent with.

Originally posted by ValoxMasyl_696
Naturally Master Obi-Wan Kenobi is more powerful. you do not here about Count Dooku in Episodes in episodes 3,4,5,6. but on the other hand hand you here of Obi-Wan through out.

That might be because he was dead at the beginning of 3?

Kenobi has style.

Dooku has class.

Originally posted by exanda kane
Of course it's Old Ben. I think that the only problem is that GL hadn't really developed any interesting force powers before benny died. However, I do think that he was wiser and probably had better skills in the force. The only problem is that he only used a couple of force powers that really weren't very impressive (Jedi Mind Trick x2, Maybe force heal on Luke when he got pwnd by Tuskens, and maybe force scream to scare away the tuskens but it may have simply been another unkown maneuver.)
Dooku on the other hand, Seems capable of more destructive abilities, such as push, choke, and lightning, and also didn't seem nearly as wise as old ben (because he totally got tricked by palpatine)

Therefore, when they're both in their "Force Primes" (meaning old farts) I'd say that Obi-Wan was more connected, and therefore my powerful in the force than count dooku.

Force heal???? Force Scream???

Dooku wins if obi wan can barely handle a lightsaber droid who is trained by Dooku (in star wars clone wars) well i think dooku will cut his head of

He decided to crush him with a metal stage.

Dooku...duh.

Hehehe

Count Dooku have demonstrated higher Force mastery then that of Obi-Wan. During his duel against the Obi-Wan and Anakin on a ship in ROTS, he effortlessely lifted Obi-Wan and threw him away and then ripped a part of a walking platform and threw it on him. In other words, he actually clearly dominated him through the Force.

Then Dooku was also an exceptional swordsman and was a very dangerous foe for Obi-Wan even in a pure Light Saber dueling contest.

And Dooku was also more experienced. Hence Dooku was more powerful then Obi-Wan.

And Ob1 beat Anakin,w ho in turn easiliy defeated Dooku... circle is complete and confusing...

Originally posted by queeq
And Ob1 beat Anakin,w ho in turn easiliy defeated Dooku... circle is complete and confusing...
When Obi-Wan gained the higher ground, at that time Anakin made a foolish move by jumping towards Obi-Wan's position and got slashed. That's why Anakin lost.

Anakin wasn't exactly beating him before that.

Dooku woomped on Obi

So did Anakin on Dooku.

Yes but A+B doesn't always = C.

Dooku fought Kenobi.

Twice.

Dooku pWnT him.

Twice.

With Force or with sabers, with another opponent or without, Dooks beats Obi-Wan any day of the week.

Closing...?

Well said sithsaber.

Obi Wan beats them both,.

Originally posted by Sesse
Obi Wan beats them both,.

Yup, Dooku beats OB1 anytime...

Easy question - Dooku.
He and Obi-Wan fought twice. Dooku took out Obi-Wan easy both times.

Anakin as a Jedi is much more powerful than both of them (ep. 3).

And yet, OB1 beats him.

meh...

that's only because of the slope that they were on, and anakin being foolish and prideful.

Anakin v.s. obi in the Generals quarters of the Invisible hand would've ended with Obi's hands lopped off.


(also, the OT necessitates that Obi-wan wins)

It's not like Anakin was whooping OB1 before the slope.

Originally posted by queeq
Anakin wasn't exactly beating him before that. He would have eventually. OB1 was visibly tired while "surfing" down the lava, while Anakin still Looked fresh, minus the bags under his eyes.
They needed a reason to get Vader in that suit and that's how they did it.

That's pure speculation.

Well, if you look at the fight, Vader is pursuing Obi-Wan and pushing him back through 90% of it. Obi is blocking all his attacks and retreating. He doesn't try to stand toe to toe with him.


When they stalemate over the force push and when they are on the table
are the only times where it seems even.



And outside of the fight, if you look at the other 2 films, Obi gets beaten by Dooku every time.

With sabers or with the Force, with support or without.


The anakin/obi duel is it's own seperate deal.

It is. Because one could wonder why Ob1 does the retreating thing. He doesn't want to hurt Anakin and Anakin SOOO wants to hurt OB1... So is OB1 retreating because Anakin is stronger or because he's hoping there's still reason in him. After all, there's that ROTJ line from Vader to Luke about OB1 that is nowhere to be found in the PT: "OB1 once thought as you did." Well, I never see OB1 saying there's still good in Anakin other than maybe unsaid in this fight.

So there are two ways of looking at it. Then end is the same: OB1 pwned Anakin.

Only because Anakin made a stupid mistake and yes, Obi-Wan won the duel, that doesn't mean he is better then Anakin, it was just one of those days...

Originally posted by queeq
It is. Because one could wonder why Ob1 does the retreating thing. He doesn't want to hurt Anakin and Anakin SOOO wants to hurt OB1... So is OB1 retreating because Anakin is stronger or because he's hoping there's still reason in him. After all, there's that ROTJ line from Vader to Luke about OB1 that is nowhere to be found in the PT: "OB1 once thought as you did." Well, I never see OB1 saying there's still good in Anakin other than maybe unsaid in this fight.

So there are two ways of looking at it. Then end is the same: OB1 pwned Anakin.

He pwned him? Are you serious? He jumped and got some limbs with a swipe of his saber, he wasn't battering Anakin by any means. He kicked him in the stomach once and Anakin just looked at him and kept coming, and then he kicked him while Anakin was running at him...that's it.

And he didn't want to hurt Anakin? He drew his saber first, there's the scene when they first go inside and OB1 twists his arm and tries to hack his head off, and the scene on the table where he tries to kill a defenseless Anakin. Yea, that's not wanting to hurt someone.

OB1's form is a defensive form where you bide your time and look for a hole in the game of your opponent and guess what...he didn't find one until Anakin made a dumb-ass jump.

Anakin was dominating the fight and lost on because of his own hubris, not OB1's superior skill...just his experience.

Again... that speculating.

I dunno.... getting three limbs cut off in one action... I call that PWNED!!!

How's it speculating that he was trying to kill an unarmed (no pun intended) Anakin?

It would have been pwnage if he destroyed Anakin within a minute or so, not after 12 minutes. And what you call pwnage, I call luck. Ob1 seems to have an affinity for luck.

Anakin beating Dooku was pwnage, he dominated the solo fight and cut off both hands and a head, but did it very quickly and easily.

OB1 couldn't have pulled off the same victory had they been in a different setting that wouldn't allow Anakin to make a dumbass jump like that.

Agreed.


And the thread is about Obi v.s. Dooku, not Anakin.


Obi looses to Dooku, always and forever.


No matter what happened later with Anakin, that was more of luck/fluke thing that Anakin got angry and stupid and Obi got a good shot at him.

I think it's safe to say that he wouldn't have been able to land a mortal wound to him in any other circumstances.


But regardless, Dooks pWnZ Obi-Wan.

I win.

It is about Dooku and OB1 but it is puzzling how OB1 looses to Dooku. Dooku is fairly easily beaten by Anakinm while OB1 in his fight with Anakin never seems to be in any form of mortal danger.

And then he PWNs him! Again, the fact taht he doesn't beat him earlier is due to:
a. Anakin is stronger....
or
b. OB1 holds back in hopes of saving Anakin

The reason the fight was so dragged out was because they were trying to show how in tune with each other they were. The novel even stated they "knew each other more intimately than lovers, or something like that, and being that OB1 trained him and has mastered the ultimate defensive form, its no wonder it took so long.

Dooku is far superior to OB1, and all Anakin had to do to beat him was "decide" (from the novel). There's no way OB1 was holding back when fighting Anakin when he tried to kill him multiple times. He even drew his saber first when he had his back turned. Plus he didn't deny it when Padme asked if he was going to kill Anakin.

Anakin was the more powerful fighter, as confirmed by GL, but OB1 had more experience and wasn't blinded by rage as Anakin was.

So Anakin PWNED himself in a way?

you could say that, I guess. But he wasn't pwned at all...not by Kenobi...

"Antaeus > Anakin as a Jedi is much more powerful than both of them (ep. 3)."

Originally posted by queeq
And yet, OB1 beats him.



No he did not - he beated Anakin when he was a confused and angry turnover (Sith). Not when he was a powerful Jedi.

Anakin as Jedi (ep. 3) was MUCH more powerful compared to OB1.
He beated Dooku easily - OB1 had no chance against Dooku, twice.


I also think it was wrong that OB1 could beat Anakin as a Sith - the only explanation is that Anakin was confused and angry and not in balance - a fight later when Anakin was in balance as a Sith OB1 would have had no chance.

Anakin is in another class compared to OB1.

And it's no excuse. Hate, anger, rage... isn't that supposed to give a Sith focus, as Palpy put it?

We should stop discussing this, it makes the PT even owrse than it already is.

true...BUT just answer that first part, if i may, I think at that time, he was still torn between right and wrong. He knew he was doing wrong but also knew he had done too much to go back. oh well...

I dunno... his "my new Empire" speech didn't sound like someone who feels he may be wrong.

Originally posted by queeq
And it's no excuse. Hate, anger, rage... isn't that supposed to give a Sith focus, as Palpy put it?

We should stop discussing this, it makes the PT even owrse than it already is.

1) But your response is still wrong.

You answered on my quote "Antaeus > Anakin as a Jedi is much more powerful than both of them (ep. 3)."

No question that Anakin as Jedi (ep. 3) was more powerful than both Dooku and OB1.

2) As Sith:
Balance is still very important - young Anakin-Sith did not had that in the fight.

I still think it was a mistake the way OB1 did win against Anakin - he was much to powerful at that time. Lucas made a big mistake (my opinion).

Actually I think it is an okay discussion......

Originally posted by queeq
I dunno... his "my new Empire" speech didn't sound like someone who feels he may be wrong. I think he was just trying to justify it to himself and seem sure of himself even if he wasn't. Lies and deceit are his ways now. If he showed weakness by not even being confident in everything he had just done, then OB1 may have been able to convince him to come back to the light, then his life would be over. He'd be jailed and/or executed by the courts...after being recruited to kill Sidious I'm sure.

Originally posted by Antaeus
1) But your response is still wrong.

You answered on my quote "Antaeus > Anakin as a Jedi is much more powerful than both of them (ep. 3)."

No question that Anakin as Jedi (ep. 3) was more powerful than both Dooku and OB1.


Anteaus sounds like EU. That is forbidden here.

Originally posted by queeq
Anteaus sounds like EU. That is forbidden here.

EU ? - Probably not European Union, but then what?????
What is forbidden?

Sigh....

Wait until the TV shows get kicking, then it REALLY be back to n00bsville.

???
Speak as we understand it or don't.

Originally posted by sithsaber408


Wait until the TV shows get kicking, then it REALLY be back to n00bsville.

I bet. We'll open a separate forum for that when it comes.

It won't just go in the EU section?

Nope.... that'd be too bad for folks like me.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot, you don't like EU.

Dooku > Obi Wan, in saber combat or force usage.

^^^... see HE gets it and he's only been here 2 weeks.

Oh I agree.... It just makes the rest so odd.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Dooku was one of the finest swordsmen of the Prequel-era Order.

Irrelevant Misdirection, Logical Fallacy. The thread and I are asking who's better, forcewise.



Vague, likely speaking of the irrelevant saber ability, and completely unsupported, and unsubstantiated.



Again, you're still clearly referring to saber combat. Forcewise, Mace hasn't displayed jack, whereas Obi-Wan hurls Grievous around like he's a pebble and senses the deaths of countless Jedi through Order 66.



Wow, way to speak in respect to an incarnation of Obi-Wan that was yet to gain 3 years of war experience. Seriously, well done old chap.

Not to mention that Dooku only overpowers him while battling him with a saber, which is exactly parallel to the way he did so in RotS. A surprise attack, not proof of superiority in force power. It speaks for how great a fighter Dooku is, his concentration, his strategy, and is testament to how effective dueling with just one hand can be.



See above. Given the surprise nature of the attack, there's no way Obi-Wan would have been able to apply a defence, meaning that the apparent superiority there on Dooku's part is not in force ability.



Name one thing he does on par with hurling Grievous about 50 feet up into the air at a pretty incredible speed, or sensing the effects of Order 66? Oh that's right, you can't, meaning that based on the movies, evidence points to Obi-Wan being the more powerful of the two in force ability.



Irrelevant.

BTW: OWNED!

No dude, you're just an Obi-wan fanboy.

You remind me of Rampant Ox when he used to argue that Anakin didn't pwn Dooku and that it was some luck thing.




In ROTS, Dooku FORCE CHOKES obi-wan, FORCE LIFTS him up and throws him WITH THE FORCE into a balcony, and then USES THE FORCE to drop said balcony on him.


They had a 2 to 1 advantage on Dooku, and as you said "3 years war experience" jump in skill.

This "surprise nature of the attack" is BS.


Dooku pWnZ obi, sabers, force, or otherwise.

Suck on my balls b1tch.



Anakin didn't "pwn" Dooku. Given that Dooku was able to effortlessly duel against both Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time and disable Obi-Wan with ease, it's pretty obvious that he was testing Anakin and not going for the kill, given that Anakin's hardly leagues better than Obi-Wan or anything. Anakin did get lucky, in so much as his sudden increase in skill was able to catch Dooku off guard and cost him his hands. So I remind you of this guy called Rampant Ox, huh? Cool, it's probably because we've both been right in these cases.



Unfortunate...

Apparently the vast majority of people here have no capacity for logical thought beyond that of a ten year old.

Z0MG, bcO$ Dukuz att4cKd Mpb1 1 w!tH teH f0RZe itz menz th4T dUkis mraore p0erf1uL 11!elev1ne;

Right, now let's look at the facts:

1. When Force User A overpowers Force User B, a superiority in that respect can only be proven if Force user B was able to apply a defence, but still overpowered. For instance, you wouldn't say that Dooku was more powerful than Obi-Wan with the force if he blasted him apart with lightning while Obi-Wan was asleep, would you? Of course you wouldn't!

2. Darth Sidious had erected a shroud of the darkside over the Jedi which Mace Windu specifically recognises as hindering the Jedi's foresight. In other words, Obi-Wan's pre-cog would clearly be severely lessened in the situation in question (especially considering how Palpatine was in the same room as him), leaving him more open to a surprise attack.

3. Count Dooku had been owning both Anakin and Obi-Wan all over the place, and was clearly outclassing them in saber combat, meaning that the chances are Obi-Wan would have had to have been applying virtually all of his concentration into keeping up with Dooku in that regard, which certainly would leave him defenceless against a sudden force attack that he wouldn't be expecting. He certainly doesn't appear to have caught on (was right in the middle of a saber strike), or attempt to defend against anything (no hand motions for example).

Add all points together, and no superiority on Dooku's part in the respect that I and the thread is dealing with can be substantiated.

But feel free to continue capitalising the word "force" you weirdo, it makes your case oh so convincing.



Which speaks for how great a duelist and fighter Dooku is. It in no way undermines the fact that Obi-Wan was only overpowered by a SURPRISE ATTACK!!

Having trouble reading that? Here, again, for the retards who have trouble reading:

"OBI-WAN WAS OVERPOWERED BY A SURPRISE ATTACK"

ARE?YOU?GETTING?IT?YET?



Yeah, perhaps for a dumbass 10 year old.



In saber ability and fighting ability? Hell yeah! But with the force? No!

Obi-Wan senses the mass effect of Order 66 and is able to throw Grievous around like a b1tch. That's power beyond anything seen of Dooku in the movies.

BTW: U GOT OWNZED!

Originally posted by nmensfinest
Suck on my balls b1tch.



Anakin didn't "pwn" Dooku. Given that Dooku was able to effortlessly duel against both Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time and disable Obi-Wan with ease, it's pretty obvious that he was testing Anakin and not going for the kill, given that Anakin's hardly leagues better than Obi-Wan or anything. Anakin did get lucky, in so much as his sudden increase in skill was able to catch Dooku off guard and cost him his hands. So I remind you of this guy called Rampant Ox, huh? Cool, it's probably because we've both been right in these cases.



Unfortunate...

Apparently the vast majority of people here have no capacity for logical thought beyond that of a ten year old.

Z0MG, bcO$ Dukuz att4cKd Mpb1 1 w!tH teH f0RZe itz menz th4T dUkis mraore p0erf1uL 11!elev1ne;

Right, now let's look at the facts:

1. When Force User A overpowers Force User B, a superiority in that respect can only be proven if Force user B was able to apply a defence, but still overpowered. For instance, you wouldn't say that Dooku was more powerful than Obi-Wan with the force if he blasted him apart with lightning while Obi-Wan was asleep, would you? Of course you wouldn't!

2. Darth Sidious had erected a shroud of the darkside over the Jedi which Mace Windu specifically recognises as hindering the Jedi's foresight. In other words, Obi-Wan's pre-cog would clearly be severely lessened in the situation in question (especially considering how Palpatine was in the same room as him), leaving him more open to a surprise attack.

3. Count Dooku had been owning both Anakin and Obi-Wan all over the place, and was clearly outclassing them in saber combat, meaning that the chances are Obi-Wan would have had to have been applying virtually all of his concentration into keeping up with Dooku in that regard, which certainly would leave him defenceless against a sudden force attack that he wouldn't be expecting. He certainly doesn't appear to have caught on (was right in the middle of a saber strike), or attempt to defend against anything (no hand motions for example).

Add all points together, and no superiority on Dooku's part in the respect that I and the thread is dealing with can be substantiated.

But feel free to continue capitalising the word "force" you weirdo, it makes your case oh so convincing.



Which speaks for how great a duelist and fighter Dooku is. It in no way undermines the fact that Obi-Wan was only overpowered by a SURPRISE ATTACK!!

Having trouble reading that? Here, again, for the retards who have trouble reading:

"OBI-WAN WAS OVERPOWERED BY A SURPRISE ATTACK"

ARE?YOU?GETTING?IT?YET?



Yeah, perhaps for a dumbass 10 year old.



In saber ability and fighting ability? Hell yeah! But with the force? No!

Obi-Wan senses the mass effect of Order 66 and is able to throw Grievous around like a b1tch. That's power beyond anything seen of Dooku in the movies.

1.) Watch your language n00b.

2.) Obi sensed the Order 66 real good when he got blasted off that mountain riding the dianoga.... didn't he?

3.) You have thinly linked logic and theories that are unprovable (the dark side clouding caused Obi-Wan to be vulnerable to the Force attacks) to back your claims, and I have two back-to-back films where Obi-Wan Kenobi is defeated by Dooku, first in saber combat (AOTC) and then by the Force (ROTS) and BOTH times he has a 2 to 1 advantage going into the fight.


4.) You're a troll, and a rude one at that. Reported.



5.) Have a nice day.

Call me a n00b again, and I'll make you suck on my balls, b1tch!



Wow, dumbass, way to misread what I was saying, which was that he sensed the EFFECTS (gosh, do I have to capitalise everything for you to be able to READ and UNDERSTAND what I'm saying?) of Order 66, as in the mass death that it caused. He was able to sense the disturbance caused from lightyears away.



Again, DUMBASS, way to misread what I was saying. I didn't say that Sidious was weakening their force defences (idiot idiot idiot) but their foresight, which would make them not more vulnerable to force attacks (moron moron moron), but to being caught off guard.

ARE?YOU?GETTING?THIS?YET?

N00B?



You're bringing up already defeated points (which you failed to reply to the rebuttal of), logical fallacy at its best.

The saber combat bit? Irrelevant.

The force bit? To an 8 year old it might look like Dooku may be stronger in that respect based on that evidence, but to us teenagers who know how to apply context and substantiate, it proves nothing. Breaking what happens down like I have previously done in this thread, it proves nothing in terms of what the thread is asking for.



Translation: You just defeated every single one of my posts (BTW: I'm gay) and embarrassed me (BTW: I'm gay), and because I can't hope to keep up with you in an argument (BTW: I'm gay) I'm going to constantly call you a n00b and troll (BTW: I'm gay) and report you to the moderators (BTW: I'm gay) to try and get you banned (did I mention that I'm gay?). I'm gay. I'm gay. I'm gay. I'm gay. I'm gay. I'm gay. I'm gay. I'm gay. I'm gay. I'm gay. I'm gay. I'm gay. I'm gay. I'm gay. I'm super gay, didn't you know?



Suck. On. My. Balls. N00bsaber.

(BTW: You're gay)

BTW: WTFBBQOWNZED BIZNATCH!!

PS: You're gay.

nmensfinest, that's an official warning for use of flaming language. Carry on like that and you will be banned.

Sure I will, but be honest here Ush; the warning has something more to do with something that happened in the Heroes Forum than something that happened in this forum, doesn't it? Tell the truth. Now.

Or it could be because you clearly went over the top and were reported. That's simply cut and dried and if you keep trying to make something else out of it- which you are clearly doing just to stir trouble- you will be warned for that as well.

I think things are clear.

Sure thing Sir. May I ask your on topic opinion?

I think it is becoming dangerously close to a vs. thread, but more specifically as his Master's Master and as a man who performed apparently greater force feats I don't really see much of an argument here. Dooku is clearly portrayed as a superior force user- as ever, the simple creation of a powerful foe so as to better demonstrate the heroism of the good guys. It's not much good if the good guys are simply better.

Which means what exactly? Master are only ever shown giving their padawans guidance and such; never training them in combat. The only one shown to do that is Yoda, training a class of younglings. So Dooku would logically have no special insight into how Obi-Wan fights or anything.

At best, the position proves that Dooku has had a higher number of years of training, study, and experience than Obi-Wan has. Which again, means little, given that pure talent, dedication, a greater quality of training, experience and study, and fewer unrelated responsibilities can make up for a lack of experience. For one, Obi-Wan's 3 years of war experience is a huge advantage that Dooku logically wouldn't share, given how peaceful the era had apparently been before the sith had revealed themselves. He's certainly displayed as an extremely talented Jedi in TPM, where for a short period of time he's able to perform far greater than his very powerful and much older Master against Darth Maul, given how he was able to completely put him on the defencive, s;ice his saber in half, kick him to the ground, and have the Sith Lord running away from his onslaught (albeit he was clearly in a skill augmented rage). Dooku would also logically have duties that would detract from his Jedi growth, moreso than other Jedi, given his status on his homeworld.



Displayed greater force feats? How so? Obi-Wan's shown to be able to fling Grievous around as if he were a rock (a feat achieved whilst Sidious had been diminishing the Jedi's ability to use the force), sense the mass effects of Order 66 which is insight into the force rivalled only by Yoda, master the ability to become a force spirit which is clearly shown to be a very obscure and advanced Jedi ability. Hell, as a padawan he was capable of using the force to move faster than the human eye can see, and surely I don't need to remind anyone about how he was able to use the force to propel himself up and out of the reactor shaft that Darth Maul had pushed him into, draw his Master's lightsaber to his hand, and slash Darth Maul into two pieces before the Sith could even react to him...



Whilst that's a trend in many pieces of fiction, it's hardly absolute, and really not necessary given that the real villains in the saga -- Sidious and Vader -- quite clearly are displayed in such a sense. Plus, Dooku's still clearly displayed as the better fighter, given how he was able to simultaneously knock Anakin back and completely disable Obi-Wan from their fight, so it really wouldn't be that big a deal to have Obi-Wan just be more powerful with the force; there's more to Jedi combat than just force combat. Plus, you're looking at this from a behind-the-movie perspective here, when the thread and I are clearly asking for an in-movie look at things.

So yeah, I stand by what I've been saying: Obi-Wan is logically more powerful than Dooku with the force as far as G-Canon is concerned. I heard that Dooku is extremely powerful in the AU/EU, so he might have Obi-Wan beat there, but not according to just the movies.

As to your first point, Star Wars doesn;t really work like that. asters are clearly portrayed as more powerful than their apprentices- it takes a very specific example like Anakin to change that rule, and even that seemed very questionable compared to Obi-Wan.

I don't really see flinging Grievous around as that impressive, to be honesat. Yeah, handy, but Dooku's lightning zap and knocking over that pillar takes the day, I feel. Your thing about him sensing Order 66 seems to be purely speculation on your part- I am sure plenty of Jedi would have done that if they were alive.

Meanwhile his jump out of the pit was only the same sort of thing Luke was doing, when barely trained.

And it is a trend common enough and relevant enough to Star Wars to apply in this case unless you can very much show the contrary, which you cannot.

You post way too much, btw. Shows a fuzzy argument, and most will not bother to read it. You should keep things much shorter.

So would you consider Qui-Gon more powerful than Darth Vader, or even Obi-Wan? Would you consider Yoda's Master to be more powerful than Yoda? Really, you're going to have to start citing examples. Obi-Wan, as a padawan, certainly performed better than his Master had against another force user. There is the Anakin example, as you yourself pointed out. Plus, taking into account the fact that Obi-Wan, by RotS, would be in the upper stage of his development (given his age, the fact that he was now a Jedi Master, his war experience, among other things) the Master > Padawan "trend" would be even more inapplicable.



Hardly. Lightning, a great power to be sure, is only ever shown to be effective, on Dooku's part, when Anakin runs at him wildly. Obi-Wan was certainly able to block it with little effort, Yoda was able to simply absorb it with his hands, and it's hardly testament to great strength in the force or anything given we know little of its potency; it's simply one of the many powers that the darkside grants you.

Collapsing the crane really isn't that impressive. All that Dooku really does, is break through the bottom of it, which results in the crane collapsing. Obi-Wan was able to fling Grievous, at an extremely great speed, in defiance of gravity, with a distance of about 50 feet (would have been more if Grievous hadn't slammed into the ceiling). Plus, there is all the other stuff I mentioned, which certainly suggests that Obi-Wan possesses greater ability with the force than Dooku does.



I never said that he and Yoda were the only ones to sense the effects of Order 66, but that they're the only two shown to do so. What you are sure of means nothing without evidence. They're the only two jedi that have been put on that level of force insight.



Yes, and if you'll notice, Luke possessed incredible strength in the force, and had been receiving quick and essential training from yoda himself. He is, in the same movie, briefly able to overpower Vader in saber combat. What you say hardly detracts from what Obi-Wan does as a padawan.



No. You originally made the point, ergo the burden of proof is on you. High probability is not proof of the certainty, meaning your argument, once again, fails. It's not up to me to absolutely disprove an in-absolute argument when the burden of proof is on you.



Yeah, perhaps you should take a trip to the comicbook versus forum if you really think I post too much. Anyways, I may post a lot, but that's testament to the fact that there's a lot of substance to my argument. Even still, my post was only 45 lines long. Really not that much to read; clearly you managed to do so.

HE posts too much indeed. Like to read himself a lot, I guess.

Yes indeed- not going to bother debating with you until you find a way to stick the a point and not meander so much, nmens. Besides which, I'd only be re-posting what I have already said, so refer to all that. You talk much but actually say almost nothing- the very last thing it ever is doing for you is showing any substance.

I am absolutely confident that my points stand on their own merits and your counter-comments are worthless.

Agreed.

Plus, you have two films showcasing the point.

Now in AOTC it's a saber battle, but in ROTS Dooku beats Obi-Wan easily, using only the Force to take him out. (Force choke, thrown with the Force, and dropped the ledge on him with the Force.)

In both cases, Obi-wan went into the fight with a 2 to 1 advantage, and in ROTS, Anakin doesn't get blasted into a wall. He's actually in the fight to help. And they both are stronger and more advanced from 3 years of warfare.

Obi-wan gets overpowered by Dooku's force abilites, plain and simple.


In any event, both times we see Dooku fight Obi-wan, whether with sabers or the force, with backup or without, Dooku wins.

I think that answers the question posed by the thread starter.

Closing?

You know Ush, honestly, I'm surprised at you. I'd expect more from a senior moderator on these boards, but whatever, if you really don't want to admit defeat, just label my posts as too long and not to the point, great tactic!



Good God SithSaber, how can you still be posting that after having it dismantled twice in a row. I mean seriously, don't you actually realise how badly that argument was destroyed, repeatedly? If you really feel the need to post something, than reply to me where I originally replied to that exact argument, because bringing it up again and again makes you look like a fool, no offense of course.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/PVS/crybaby.jpg

Originally posted by nmensfinest
You know Ush, honestly, I'm surprised at you. I'd expect more from a senior moderator on these boards, but whatever, if you really don't want to admit defeat, just label my posts as too long and not to the point, great tactic!



Good God SithSaber, how can you still be posting that after having it dismantled twice in a row. I mean seriously, don't you actually realise how badly that argument was destroyed, repeatedly? If you really feel the need to post something, than reply to me where I originally replied to that exact argument, because bringing it up again and again makes you look like a fool, no offense of course.

I'm ending this thread here and now.


Dooku beat Obi want fair and square (actually unfair, since he had anakin) in ROTS using only the Force.

This makes him a better, and stronger Force user.


Obi-Wan DID NOT "sense" Order 66 like Yoda did, so stop posting that.

He was climbing up a rock and got blasted out of nowhere by a cannon. Had he not fallen into the water, he would've died.

Or had he been on the ground around all the troops, he would've died.

NOWHERE is he shown to have "sensed" the effects of Order 66, like Yoda did when he dropped his cane.

In fact, wasn't Obi-Wan the FIRST Jedi attacked in that sequence, and caught completely off guard? stupid n00b.


Second, there was NOT a "surprise attack by Dooku" on Obi-wan.

He runs up the stairs, and has a nice overhead chop at Dooku, then gets choked, thrown, and knocked out by the ledge.

CHECKMATE.

I actually went back through the thread and counted: 15 people agreed with me and 2 with you. (and they were joking/being dumb)



Most important, the film. It speaks for itself:


aEeNVtcKwO4

-1:20 to -1:06 is a doozy, you should check it out.

Closing?

You wish.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
I'm ending this thread here and now.

I laughed out loud.



Substantiate!



Read the above.

Now, I can understand that you may find the whole concept of complex thought a bit alien, so I'll try and explain it nice and slow for ya.

Now, at best, when one force user overpowers another force user with the force, a superiority in force ability can only be gauged if the overpowered was able to apply a force defence (given that if the overpowered hadn't applied a force defence, no comparison can be drawn between the two in respect to their force abilities), and even then, it's a bit iffy, given that we know little of the nature of the force defences and attacks in question, and we could never accurately estimate exactly how much effort they put in for example, or how much concentration they were able to apply, or a number of other factors.

However, in the face of the unknown, the logical standpoint to take would be the neutral one, so let's say that as long as force user A overpowers force user B, there is evidence of superiority.

However, without proving that force user B was able to apply a force defence, you have no argument.

I'll give you an example: let's say that Dooku force choked Obi-Wan to death while Obi-Wan was asleep. Would you consider him the stronger force user out of the two based on that alone? Of course not, as he was asleep, and could not apply a defence (he lacked the concentration to do so, so to speak).

Now, while this example is a little more extreme than what actually happened, you'll actually find an absolutely parallel connection between the two. The only difference, is that Dooku, in this case, forced Obi-Wan into the position of no such concentration. Thus, all that him overpowering Obi-Wan speaks for is his attributes that allowed him to force Obi-Wan into that position, and sadly for you, those attributes in no way speak for force ability (but concentration, fighting tactics, dueling ability).

Makes sense?

What you're saying would be like saying that Palpatine is more powerful than Yoda because he overpowered Yoda with lightning at the beginning of their duel, and then going on to say the opposite because of how Yoda subsequently overpowered him with a force push. ZOMG, teh paradox!!

The point, essentially, is that a surprise attack means jack in the relevant context.



Again, you're missing what I've stated quite clearly multiple times. Obi-Wan was able to sense the planet scale deaths that were caused by Order 66, which is a level of force sense displayed only by himself, Yoda, and Palpatine.



I'm not saying that the lightsaber attack itself was a surprise attack, which you clearly appear to think is the case, but the force move which Dooku initiated just as Obi-Wan was in the middle of parrying Dooku's strikes. The surprise attack in question was the force manoeuvre, which completely took Obi-Wan off guard. It speaks in no way for any force superiority, but, as I said, a superiority in tactics, concentration, and dueling ability. As I've said, Dooku was clearly the better fighter, but not the more powerful force user.



There's a reason why appeal to majority is a logical fallacy, Sithsaber. There hasn't been a single person here who's justified that opinion without having the justification torn apart at some point in this thread.



Spoken truly by someone who has no idea what "substantiate" means.



lol, this truly did make me lmao. You thinking that you actually provided an undeniable and irrefutable argument is truly hilarious.

You're still posting far too long, nmens. No-one cares what you say when you babble like this. You really do need to learn about how to make a point.

Anyway, you are turning this into a straight vs. thread, so it is closed.