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Okay, I asked Raz like a month ago if we could make a Harry Potter versus section, and he never responded, so I give up, I'll just make a versus thread, hope that's okay.


Rules:
Answer the question above you, then ask another one. Just one other one, and please keep the battles between HP characters only! Debates are fine as well, encouraged, even. I'll start us off:




Filius Flitwick vs. Minerva McGonagall

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t459838.html

vin

I don't how powerful Flitwick is, but I doubt it matters. McGongall took four stunning curses to the chest and survived, while Sirius only died after one. Is the fight to the death?

Absolutely not.

I'm personally in agreement with darthsith19 when it comes to versus threads; as much as I lack knowledge of Star Wars in comparison to the regulars in the SWVF, I can appreciate how fun debating power levels can get in that forum especially, and HP almost has as much potential in that respect.

As for the battle: McGonagall. The skill she displays in her duel with Snape was pretty awesome, moving faster than Harry believed possible, and almost overpowering Snape. As mentioned, she was also able to duel with Voldemort, along with Kingsley and Slughorn, and I'm of the opinion that only the best of the Order members would have actively sought out Voldemort during the battle, and Flitwick wasn't one of them.

Bellatrix Lestrange vs. Serverus Snape

I also agree with darthsith19 here, as for Bellatrix Lestrange vs. Serverus Snape I think Snape will eat her for breakfast. She does not posses any special power or knowledge except being a core supporter of Lord Voldermort. What makes her dangerous is the presence or closeness to the Dark Lord and the fact that she is very evil. So Snape is or rather was the bravest member of the Order of the Phoenix.

Siriuse Black vs. Lucius Malfoy

Sirius Black. He was intelligent enough to become an Animagus when he was still in school, and did well in the Department of Mysteries up until the point where he fought Bellatrix. Also, we haven't seen anything spectacular from Lucius Malfoy.

Moody vs. Kingsley.

Definately Kingsley, Moody is way past his best and living of reputation, Kingsley has shown himself to be one of the most powerful members of the order of the pheonix and being able to fight multiple Death Eaters at once.

And yes make a section, so we can have proper discussions.

Slughorn vs Dolohov

About Moody, I agree, but in his day Moody could probably win since he's supposed to be like the best ever.


I'd guess Slughorn, but am not sure, but he fought Voldemort alongside McGonagall and Flitwick and put up a good fight, I'd guess he's up with those 2. Plus he's an old friend of Dumbledore's and he and Dumbledore worked together to fix his house, making it seem like they are kinda equals, not really but somewhat. Dolohov did beat Moody, but got taken out in book 5, can't remember who did it, he also may have killed Lupin and/or Tonks, so this is close, but my vote goes to Slughorn, except he is kinda cocky, too.



Yeah, and she had to go to St. Mungo's, Hagrid took like a hundred and kept moving. Plus the one didn't kill Sirius, it was the fact that he fell through the veil that killed him, one just stunned him.



I agree that Sirius beats Malfoy, he is up with James and Lupin, Lupin took out Malfoy in book 5, we've never seen Malfoy do anything impressive even. And Sirius even toyed with Bellatrix, though foolishly, cause she did kill him, but still, Bella would own Lucius.


Agreed, but Snape was caught by surprise and wasn't trying to kill her. Plus Flitwick saved her ass in the end.


Oh yeah, I thought it was Flitwick and Slughorn, but yeah, it was Kingsley.


Maybe, maybe not. Maybe Voldemort went after one of them and the otehr two went and rescued the single. Perhaps Flitwick had his hands wrapped up killing Dolohov, blasting away giants or fighting multiple death eaters at once. You never know.









Madam Maxime vs. Bellatrix Lestrange

I must disagree with some of the assessments made regarding Bellatrix Lestrange and Lucius Malfoy; while it is true that we haven't seen a lot of spectacular or even considerable magical prowess from Lucius -- it also must be taken into consideration that the majority of Harry's encounters with him have been mainly political and through dialogue rather than magical combat -- even during the fiasco in the Ministry. Furthermore, it also must be taken into consideration that as martial as the Order of the Phoenix is, Voldemort's supporters and Death Eaters are much moreso. Their ranks are devised solely on power and skill, and during the infiltration of the Ministry, Lucius was higher placed on the Death Eater's totem pole of power than even Bellatrix. One must assume that they are, on the very least, on par.

And then one must take into account Bellatrix's own proficiency. She was able to outduel and defeat Sirius Black and Kingsley Shackelbolt -- killing the former and merely beating the latter -- two very powerful wizards in their own right, one of whom (Kingsley) was regarded by Voldemort to be as dangerous as the legendary Mad-Eye Moody. She also managed to evade capture in the Ministry, and even deflected a spell from Albus Dumbledore himself, who is Voldemort's equal (if not superior, given that he was in possession of the Elder Wand).

While I'm certain that Sirius, Lupin, and James all grew up to be immensely powerful, how can we be certain of how strong they are? James, in school, seemed to be a more skilled duelist than Severus Snape, and yet Snape has exhibited talents and skills that neither of the three (even as adults) can compete with in his final years.

I'd say that Malfoy, Snape, and Bellatrix are on the very least, on par with James, Lupin, and Sirius. If anything, Bellatrix and Snape are better.

Originally posted by Gideon
I must disagree with some of the assessments made regarding Bellatrix Lestrange and Lucius Malfoy; while it is true that we haven't seen a lot of spectacular or even considerable magical prowess from Lucius -- it also must be taken into consideration that the majority of Harry's encounters with him have been mainly political and through dialogue rather than magical combat -- even during the fiasco in the Ministry. Furthermore, it also must be taken into consideration that as martial as the Order of the Phoenix is, Voldemort's supporters and Death Eaters are much moreso. Their ranks are devised solely on power and skill, and during the infiltration of the Ministry, Lucius was higher placed on the Death Eater's totem pole of power than even Bellatrix. One must assume that they are, on the very least, on par.

And then one must take into account Bellatrix's own proficiency. She was able to outduel and defeat Sirius Black and Kingsley Shackelbolt -- killing the former and merely beating the latter -- two very powerful wizards in their own right, one of whom (Kingsley) was regarded by Voldemort to be as dangerous as the legendary Mad-Eye Moody. She also managed to evade capture in the Ministry, and even deflected a spell from Albus Dumbledore himself, who is Voldemort's equal (if not superior, given that he was in possession of the Elder Wand).

While I'm certain that Sirius, Lupin, and James all grew up to be immensely powerful, how can we be certain of how strong they are? James, in school, seemed to be a more skilled duelist than Severus Snape, and yet Snape has exhibited talents and skills that neither of the three (even as adults) can compete with in his final years.

I'd say that Malfoy, Snape, and Bellatrix are on the very least, on par with James, Lupin, and Sirius. If anything, Bellatrix and Snape are better. I would say that Snape is considerably stronger then any of the others you mentioned, followed by Bellatrix, Sirius, Lupin and James who are all on a similar level, i would say that Malfoy is considerably weaker than the rest of them.

Lol, Malfoy got taken out by freaking Dobby the House Elf. Gideon, there's no way in hell he's on par with Bellatrix, Voldemort's 'last and best luitenant'. I'd also like to see your proof for your claim that ranks among the Death Eater are purely based on power, because it makes much more sense that Voldemort simply picked Lucius over Bella because she's wild and reckless, as can be seen when she was trying to force the prophecy away from Harry, whereas Lucius was much calmer and cleverer about the matter. Though I will agree that I can definitely see him being up there in the rankings, behind Bellatrix, Snape and Dolohov perhaps, given the extent to which Voldemort trusted him...

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
I don't how powerful Flitwick is, but I doubt it matters. McGongall took four stunning curses to the chest and survived, while Sirius only died after one. Is the fight to the death?

Sirius was killed by a stunning spell from Bellatrix. As we see in the end of The Deathly Hallows, Bellatrix fought 3 students who were at the end of their education. Althought I have no idea how the hell did Mrs.Weasley beat Bellatrix. That was probably Rowling's stupidest idea in the book.

However, I think Minerva has both the knowledge and power to beat Flitwick, althought Flitwick would be hard to hit because of his height and he knows some usefull spells.


Originally posted by nmensfinest
I'm personally in agreement with darthsith19 when it comes to versus threads; as much as I lack knowledge of Star Wars in comparison to the regulars in the SWVF, I can appreciate how fun debating power levels can get in that forum especially, and HP almost has as much potential in that respect.

As for the battle: McGonagall. The skill she displays in her duel with Snape was pretty awesome, moving faster than Harry believed possible, and almost overpowering Snape. As mentioned, she was also able to duel with Voldemort, along with Kingsley and Slughorn, and I'm of the opinion that only the best of the Order members would have actively sought out Voldemort during the battle, and Flitwick wasn't one of them.

Bellatrix Lestrange vs. Serverus Snape

I'm not sure, but I think that Snape would take this one. Snape was amazing, and he is probably the most powerful charachter in Harry Potter after Voldemort and Dumbeldore. He was taken by surprise when Minerva was right next to him, yet he still blocked the spell. He reacted in miliseconds... So I think Snape takes this one. After that, I would also like to say that Snape would easily overpower Minerva. He jumped out of the window only because he saw the other proffesors coming up. I would also like to add that as we found out later Snape never wanted to kill anyone, therefore he was keeping his full power back from Minerva. I'm sure he could've sent a killing curse at her which would hit her easily. After all, he could read her mind, his reactions are incredible, and he can cast powerful spells without speaking them aloud.

Originally posted by Gideon
I must disagree with some of the assessments made regarding Bellatrix Lestrange and Lucius Malfoy; while it is true that we haven't seen a lot of spectacular or even considerable magical prowess from Lucius -- it also must be taken into consideration that the majority of Harry's encounters with him have been mainly political and through dialogue rather than magical combat -- even during the fiasco in the Ministry. Furthermore, it also must be taken into consideration that as martial as the Order of the Phoenix is, Voldemort's supporters and Death Eaters are much moreso. Their ranks are devised solely on power and skill, and during the infiltration of the Ministry, Lucius was higher placed on the Death Eater's totem pole of power than even Bellatrix. One must assume that they are, on the very least, on par.

And then one must take into account Bellatrix's own proficiency. She was able to outduel and defeat Sirius Black and Kingsley Shackelbolt -- killing the former and merely beating the latter -- two very powerful wizards in their own right, one of whom (Kingsley) was regarded by Voldemort to be as dangerous as the legendary Mad-Eye Moody. She also managed to evade capture in the Ministry, and even deflected a spell from Albus Dumbledore himself, who is Voldemort's equal (if not superior, given that he was in possession of the Elder Wand).

While I'm certain that Sirius, Lupin, and James all grew up to be immensely powerful, how can we be certain of how strong they are? James, in school, seemed to be a more skilled duelist than Severus Snape, and yet Snape has exhibited talents and skills that neither of the three (even as adults) can compete with in his final years.

I'd say that Malfoy, Snape, and Bellatrix are on the very least, on par with James, Lupin, and Sirius. If anything, Bellatrix and Snape are better.

I see what your getting at Gideon, but I was never sure if Voldemort took in the Death Eaters by their power levels. Some were notably weaker than the rest. And I didn't see 5th year students having that much of a problem resisting them at the Ministry. If they weren't outnumbered they would've made up a hell of a resistance. And don't you remember how he tried to take Neville in as a Death Eater? He didn't know how powerful Neville was. Voldemort wanted loyal death eaters who were pureblood and who would sacrifice their lives for him. But then, I know he wouldn't take in those who were uneducated in the dark arts. Lucius must be a good wizard, but no match for Sirius. He probably stands at the level of Dolohov or Yaxley.

Originally posted by Council#13
Sirius Black. He was intelligent enough to become an Animagus when he was still in school, and did well in the Department of Mysteries up until the point where he fought Bellatrix. Also, we haven't seen anything spectacular from Lucius Malfoy.

Moody vs. Kingsley.

Kingsley definately, he was a very good auror and he was appointed the most important tasks by the order such as securing the Muggle minister. Moody was way out of his years, but if it was his "days" when he was capturing the Death Eaters he would take Kingsley.

Originally posted by Dresta
Definately Kingsley, Moody is way past his best and living of reputation, Kingsley has shown himself to be one of the most powerful members of the order of the pheonix and being able to fight multiple Death Eaters at once.

And yes make a section, so we can have proper discussions.

Slughorn vs Dolohov

This is probably the "closest battle" yet in this thread. Dolohov is a death eater, and he was 'closer' to Voldemort than the others, althought not as close as Snape or Bellatrix. We never heard any dueling feats from Slughorn so I'll say Dolohov.



Originally posted by darthsith19
About Moody, I agree, but in his day Moody could probably win since he's supposed to be like the best ever.


I'd guess Slughorn, but am not sure, but he fought Voldemort alongside McGonagall and Flitwick and put up a good fight, I'd guess he's up with those 2. Plus he's an old friend of Dumbledore's and he and Dumbledore worked together to fix his house, making it seem like they are kinda equals, not really but somewhat. Dolohov did beat Moody, but got taken out in book 5, can't remember who did it, he also may have killed Lupin and/or Tonks, so this is close, but my vote goes to Slughorn, except he is kinda cocky, too.



Yeah, and she had to go to St. Mungo's, Hagrid took like a hundred and kept moving. Plus the one didn't kill Sirius, it was the fact that he fell through the veil that killed him, one just stunned him.



I agree that Sirius beats Malfoy, he is up with James and Lupin, Lupin took out Malfoy in book 5, we've never seen Malfoy do anything impressive even. And Sirius even toyed with Bellatrix, though foolishly, cause she did kill him, but still, Bella would own Lucius.


Agreed, but Snape was caught by surprise and wasn't trying to kill her. Plus Flitwick saved her ass in the end.


Oh yeah, I thought it was Flitwick and Slughorn, but yeah, it was Kingsley.


Maybe, maybe not. Maybe Voldemort went after one of them and the otehr two went and rescued the single. Perhaps Flitwick had his hands wrapped up killing Dolohov, blasting away giants or fighting multiple death eaters at once. You never know.









Madam Maxime vs. Bellatrix Lestrange

Bellatrix.










Fenrir Greyback vs Hagrid

Fenrir as a werewolf or a wizard? Because as a wizard, he'd probably do some sort of hideous magic on Hagrid, despite Hagrid's giant heritage. Don't count on what I said, though. I was just asking an innocent question.

Umm, I don't know. I guess Werewolf would made it a better fight.

I have no idea how Hagrid would fare against a werewolf! I'd say pretty well though, since he takes care of all of Hogwarts magical creatures. But the werewolf would be much fiercer than the wild animals that Hagrid tames, so I'd say Fenrir would win.

Um....
Werewolf fight: Fenrir vs. Lupin. (both as werewolves)

As far as Mad-Eye vs Kingsley go, I'd give it to Moody. Wasn't it stated that the reason Voldemort went after Moody first was because he assumed the real Harry would be with the most powerful escort?

I think Flitwick could beat McGonagall. He as a dueling champion, and like Spidervlad said, he would be harder to hit because of his size.

I definitely agree that Snape is a bad ass. I don't think he really fought McGonagall because he is still on the Order's side, so he doesn't want to kill any of them. But at the same time, he had to make it look like he was still a Death Eater. I just wish we could have seen Snape f*** up James. I hate him.

I'm with you, but realistically, James would most likely tool Snape, given how he was able to kick Snape's ass in their fifth year, who had already by this point been studying dark magic and inventing his own spells. James was simply a much more skilled duelist, with more powerful magic. Such is obvious...

Originally posted by nmensfinest
I'm with you, but realistically, James would most likely tool Snape , given how he was able to kick Snape's ass in their fifth year, who had already by this point been studying dark magic and inventing his own spells. James was simply a much more skilled duelist, with more powerful magic. Such is obvious...
No way, Snape was far superior to James, in my eyes Snape was only behind Voldemort and Dumbledore dueling wise. James only beat Snape in their 5th year because he was outnumbered and was taken by surprise.

Im with you Dresta, Jame is no match for Snape. Voldemort said that Snape is a fine wizard... Is that like the only compliment that Voldemort had ever said to anyone? That has to mean something. Snape got his ass kicked in the Fifth year because obviously Snape didn't want to use dark magic on James. He knew how upset Lily would be if Snape used dark magic on James, and Snape would obviously get expelled from Hogwarts. He didn't want that.

Both of you are wrong. Dresta, what you say is true for the first half of their duel, however as soon as James started talking to Lilly and forgot about Snape, Snape got in a surprise attack of his own, the sectusumpra spell in fact, yet James just brushed it off, span around, and had Snape hanging up in the air, completely defenceless. The superiority there is obvious, and can't be attributed to him catching Snape off guard or overcoming him due to superior numbers. Spider, Snape, at Hogwarts, was notorious for his use of dark magic, and he even uses it in their duel!! The sectusumpra spell: dark magic.

Originally posted by nmensfinest
Both of you are wrong. Dresta, what you say is true for the first half of their duel, however as soon as James started talking to Lilly and forgot about Snape, Snape got in a surprise attack of his own, the sectusumpra spell in fact, yet James just brushed it off, span around, and had Snape hanging up in the air, completely defenceless. The superiority there is obvious, and can't be attributed to him catching Snape off guard or overcoming him due to superior numbers. Spider, Snape, at Hogwarts, was notorious for his use of dark magic, and he even uses it in their duel!! The sectusumpra spell: dark magic. You can hardly class James as superior due to him getting the better of Snape one time when they were 15. Snape missed his attack anyway, this may have been due to him realising the consequences at the last minute if he had hit James full on with that spell. Snape shows powers and ability's that we never saw from James, or any of the other Marauders for that matter.

Why not exactly? It's really quite obvious that James was far superior than James; let's compare: James catches Snape off guard, and successfully gets him with a number of curses, and all remain in effect for quite a while. Snape, on the other hand, catches him off guard, yet James is hardly even affected, and is immediately able to spin around and get Snape back, and go back to owning Snape. So really, it doesn't take a genius to work out the superior of the two here... Besides, there are a number of other accounts claiming that James was the most talented pupil of Hogwarts at the time, so really, it's not up to debate - James was simply much, much more talented than Snape.



What are you talking about? Snape got James right on the side of his face. He didn't miss.



I guess Fred and George Weasley are above them as well then, simply because they too have displayed unique magic. Don't be ridiculous, the fact that Snape simply invented a few spells doesn't make him any more talented than people like James, especially when the said James was capable of kicking his ass all over the place despite that little fact.

Do I have to tell you again? Voldemort COMPLEMENTED Snape. That alone should tell you that Snape was a very powerful wizard. He was the most powerful of the Death Eaters, and James really hadn't ever shown any powerful magic. Any of them could be holding back their powers during the duel, however we only see the full limits of one of them, which is Snape. And his feats are very impressing, his knowledge in magic is way above James's. Snape made potions for Lupin so he wouldn't become a werewolve, while James couldn't. And added to that Snape is one clever dude.

Snape acted harshly and without thinking back in school and I'm preety sure he didn't even fully understand how to use the spells he created correctly. Very few wizards can actually make up a spell, I think the only other one that was mentioned in the book was Voldemort who created his unforgivable curses and the killing curse.

Nmensfinest, I would like some manner of evidence that confirms James Potter's superiority over Severus Snape, and not one account of an altercation that occured when they were teenagers. While I'd have no problem agreeing that James was the superior duelist (at least as a teenager), your claim that he is a "much, much more talented than Snape" requires some sort of proof. In fact, the only ones who have made a big deal about James Potter's abilities as a wizard were his fellow Marauders, and it doesn't take Einstein to conclude that they are extraordinarily biased in his favor.

Meanwhile, we have accounts of Snape being an unnaturally gifted wizard, an unparalleled potions master, and gifted enough to invent surprisingly effective spells during high school. Spells that James and the Marauders deemed worthy enough to use on him, in their ignorance.



You misunderstood. I said that Voldemort's Death Eaters are more martial than the Order of the Phoenix by nature, not that every one of their number is a powerhouse. Referring to the debacle in the Ministry, the Death Eaters' hands were tied in that their goal was to recover the prophecy; furthermore, these 5th years had the advantage of being trained by Harry personally, who is -- as we know -- uncommonly gifted in defense against the dark arts. Lastly, they were soundly defeated and outmaneuvered -- and would have died had the Order not shown up. As for Voldemort's choice to try to persuade Neville to join the Death Eater ranks, at that point, Voldemort was going to have everyone join him or die. Lucius must be an abnormally skilled wizard, as at his peak, he was higher placed than Bellatrix or Snape.

What's the proof of that? They might fight more, but that doesn't necessarily mean their better at fighting.


Proof that their ranks are devised solely on power and skill? I doubt it, Lucius was probably put in charge instead of Bellatrix because Belltrix is reckless, you seem to have read book 5, remember that bellatrix kept losing her temper and kept almost smashing the prophecy, while Lucius remained cool and collect, hence why he lead the battle and not her. Naturally, Voldemort would have chosen the one who would best lead the Death Eaters to get the Prophecy, not the ebst fighter, and Lucius knows Potter as well, which would be another reason to have him lead. Voldemort's not a moron.


Says what? I have read book 7, and Voldemort goes for Moody first, and Kingsley second, so your wrong, he believes that Moody is more dangerous.


Correct. And Lucius got tossed down the stairs by Dobby, and got beated by Lupin in the Depatrment of Mysteries. Powerful though both of them are, I can't see either of them besting Bellatrix, especially seeing as Lupin was a protector in book 7 and Voldemort placed both Moody and Kingsley above him (and Bellatrix beat Moody). So Bellatrix > Kingsley > Lupin > Lucius.


What, when? In book 5 in the Pensieve he and Sirius had to double-team Snape to beat him, and I believe it was in book 3 that Snape told Harry that his father never would attack him without the help of two of three of his cronies.


Malfoy on par with or above Lupin? You probably just forgot, but Lupin was the one who took out Malfoy in the Department of Mysteries. Snape and Bella are the strongest, then Lupin/Sirius/James, and Malfoy is the weakest. And don't forgot to answer the previous battle as well as debating.





Agreed. Harry and Neville should have double-teamed her, to take revenge for Sirius/his parents, and Neville should have dealt the finishing blow.


True, their just lucky that when the death eaters split up to look for them Belltrix never found them, till the Order got there, cause if she had it would have been bye-bye Harry.



Just let me point out that that was a Ministry appointed job, the Rufus Scrimgeour sent his best man to protect the Prime Minister, and Moody was not one of his men anymore. The Order had no control over that.


Where does it say that he's close to Voldemort, you mean power-wise?


Slughorn survivied the Battle of Hogwarts and even fought Dumbledore, though, while Dolohov got punked by book 5 Harry.









I doubt it, when have we ever seen him use a wand? Even when he was a wizard, in book 6 fighting at Hogwarts, he attacked like a warewolf (Bill), not with a wand.





Yes, but Voldemort was likely mistaken, Moody in his day was likely stronger and Voldemort just didn't know how much weaker he'd gotten since his prime.



Yeah, but Snape could likely have finished James off right then, but he thought a small injury would make James stop. They weren't going for the kill. In a death match Snape knows far more than James. Plus he likely didn't want to do anything in front of Lily, as has been stated. I doubt James could have effortlessly blocked Unforgivable Curses from an enraged book 6 Harry.







Grindelwald (no elder wand) vs. Snape

Some points I would like to correct you in.



Bellatrix was cocky during her whole life, geeze. She kept on thinking that Voldemort placed her ahead of everyone. I doubt Voldemort ever told her she was a great Wizard. Maybe he could've complemented something about her loyalty, but definately not her power.






Most retarded thing you said so far, Voldemort had all of his Death Eaters taken away, he was cornered by Harry, all of his plan failed, and he was about to get killed. Dude, no shit he got angry. When he was killing Snape that meant he would get the Elder Wand, which efcourse makes him happy. Seeing his last servant die and nobody to protect him would make him angry.




He invented the spell, so why would anyone even think it is Dark Magic? He didn't go over the line with his spells, I'm sure he knew some spells that weremuch deadlier.



Every one of those people obviously had James as one of their closest friend, so those opinions are still biased.




I don't have time to answer your other 'counter arguements' right now because I have to go, but I'm preety sure James didn't know Occlumency or Legilmency. Harry had a very tough time with it, and they don't teach it in school. Who the hell would ever have taught it to him?

Yes, and Bellatrix is extremely powerful.


Yup, but that was stated after Snape died, so your point is moot. However, when they were both alive, in chapter 1, Snape sat at Voldemort's right side, proving that he was Voldemort's right hand man and thus meaning Voldemort viewed him more highly than he viewed Bellatrix.




Of course he didn't, killing any death eater, even his favorite, would be a small price to pay to receive the Elder Wand. But when Bella died Voldemort was basically the only one left, and all his Horcruxes were gone. Of course he was mad, his plans were back firing like crazy.


Wow, so James was unaffected by a gash on his face, so he has high pain tolerance, likely from playing Quidditch and such, but in a fight to the death Snape wouldn
t merely have cut his face, he'd have used Secumsempra to cut his fvcking head off! But was he going to do that, and get put in Azkaban? Hell no he wasn't. And after he'd called Lily a "filthy little mudblood", he was to distressed to fight back, plus we don't know how he got down in the first place, maybe he fought back and won.


So you think Snape would have tried to kill James? If not, pray tell me what he could have done. Levicorpus? And while he's doing so, have Sirius curse him from behind? Stupify, and while he's stunning James have Sirius stun him? No matter what Snape did to James, he wouldn't have been able to win, because it was 2 on 1, so he probably wanted to cause him some pain but not enough for him to get in serious trouble.


Wrong, Snape would have learned stuff from Voldemort after Hogwarts, James would learn nothing else. As stated before, what could Snape have done to James without either getting:
A. Expelled and possibly sent to Azkaban

or

B. Getting attacked from behind by Sirius?


Yes, he was in the presence of Lily, and knew that whatever happened he would lose.


Yes, it does, being better in a death match does make one a more skillful duelist. Just like Harry could block all that from Snape? In a death match instead of Secemsempra to the cheek, it would have been to the neck, and off with the head, can James block that? How about Avada Kadavra, I believe that is unblockable.


To defend himself, yes, and he only cut James's face, he didn't use it to it's full extent, i.e. he didn't try to kill James with it.


The hell...? What does Occlumency have to do with Harry vs. Snape in book 6? We also have no proof that James ever studied Occlumency, so there's no reason he'd be better at it than Harry was.





Amelia Bones vs. Snape?

Fixed.



Irrelevant. Arrogance and deception have no necessary link.



Which he did. He quite clearly made a point about how faithful the Lestranges were to his death eaters after returning to power in GoF, and claimed that they'd be honoured beyond their wildest dreams. He left one of his horcruxes in their vault. Bellatrix quite clearly stated that Voldemort himself stated these things, with no reason to lie, and that she might have been lying completely goes against her character - way too petty. Plus, as I've said quite a bit now that you've chosen to ignore, there's the fact that Bellatrix is directly stated by the omniscient narrator as being Voldemort's last and best lieutenant.



Clearly you're quite new to the world of debating, because if you weren't, you'd know that when you make a point, you have to substantiate it. Simply claiming that Voldemort complemented Snape's power is all fine and dandy, but you have failed to substantiate how that places him above Bellatrix, and no, simply saying you doubt that Voldemort would say the same things to her is not substantiating it.



Firstly, he still believed Harry to be dead at the point where he screamed out, so we'll cross that nonsense about Harry out. Secondly, funny how you claim that what I said was retarded, yet this post is just screaming of nutcase logic. Spidervlad, your point fails because you automatically assume that Voldemort believed his plans to have truly failed when and only when Bellatrix was killed, and not before, seeing as it was at that point where he screamed out at the top of his voice. Do you honestly believe that having Bellatrix there, alive and fighting for him was the one thing keeping all of his plans in place? Quite simply a ridiculous thing to say; my opinion on the matter makes far more sense, that his fury simply stemmed from losing his most valued death eater. Simply put, to interpret the meaning behind Voldemort's scream, we have to look at what change occured at the time in question, and the only thing that makes sense would be my stance.



Either way, if he truly valued Snape as much as you're making out he did, he would have showed far more emotion.

BTW, Truly wonderful how you ignored, yet again, the omniscient narrator flat out claiming that Bellatrix was the best of all Voldemort's death eaters. I'll put it in caplocks for you "VOLDEMORT'S FURY AT THE FALL OF HIS LAST, BEST LIEUTENANT EXPLODED WITH THE FORCE OF A BOMB!"



Hmmm, could it possibly be the huge gash that appeared right at the side of James' face? You're absolutely right Spider, that's a completely harmless spell that noone could possibly believe to be dark.



Opinion =/= Fact.



Wow, last time I checked, Lily at the time was hardly biased towards James, rather against him.



LMAO. Again. Opinion =/= Fact!



Great job putting things into perspective.

1. Harry lived an entire live full of suffering. Parents dead when he was a child, growing up by people who hated him and feeling unwanted, having to witness Cedric Diggory's death, countless life/death situations... Not exactly the best characteristic for Occlumency now, huh Spidervlad?

2. Harry was being taught by his least favorite teacher that made it near impossible for him to relax, something vital for Occlumency.

3. Harry was actively trying not to learn Occlumency, to find out what was beyond the door within his dream.

So really, the fact that Harry couldn't do Occlumency proves nothing, especially when taking into account that fricking Draco could do it.



Wow. This just gets dumber and dumber. By that logic, no wizard could learn anything magic related that isn't taught in school, which would mean that the existence of people such as Olivander is a huge enigma! Now please Spidervlad, use your head, don't you think that maybe, just maybe, as a member of the order of the phoenix, James would be in a position to know lots of important info that if in the hands of Death eaters, could prove to be troubling? Dumbledore wouldn't exactly be the smartest guy in the world to be letting his agents be going out there, fighting against Death Eaters who may very well be trained in Legilimency, completely undefended against outside penetration. As I said, use your 'ead. As to where he learnt the art from, likely Dumbeldore.

nmensfinest, I love how you ignored everything I said.


Now:

Amelia Bones vs. Snape?


I go with Bones since she supposedly put up a fight against Voldemort himself (though I think Snape could, too, not a great one, but okay).

Clearly the concept that people might be too busy to reply to 2 long essays in a row doesn't register to you, darthsith, however seeing as you're so desperate to continue this, I'll own your first point.



Way to misinterpret the statement dumbass. If Bellatrix was his 'last and best lieutenant,' and only the current death eaters were being taken into account like you seem to think, the 'best' part of the statement would be completely redundant, seeing as she was the only one left. So clearly the statement was speaking of every Death Eater that's ever been in Voldemort's employ, which includes Snape. Point unmooted.

The rest of your points shall be owned tomorrow, but well done being so eager to get intellectually curbstomped, bravo big man.

Wow, way to respond to one thing I said, and if you meant to sound like a dick in your response, you succeeded.


If that were the case then we have a contradiction, as in book 4 Barty Crouch Jr. Is referred to as Voldemort's best death eater. Which clearly goes to prove that it only refers to death eaters alive and active at the time. Besides, Snape wasn't the best, because he wasn't a real Death Eater, and there's no proof that best = most powerful, best could mean most loyal in which case, yes, Bellatrix wins.


Way to act like a dick, and I'll be waiting.





Quirrell vs. Karkaroff?

Originally posted by darthsith19

Grindelwald (no elder wand) vs. Snape
I would have to say Snape, but a very close match up. But seeing as Dumbledore was able to defeat him with the Elder Wand, it means that he was considerably more skillful than Grindelwald. And Snape, although weaker than Dumbledore, is not far behind, so imo Snape would clinch this.

And i think we should just ignore 'nmensfinest' as he clearly has no idea what he's talking about by saying that because James used 'Levicorpus' once on an outmubered Snape, makes him 'far superior'. Good one thumbsup

Originally posted by nmensfinest
Clearly the concept that people might be too busy to reply to 2 long essays in a row doesn't register to you, darthsith, however seeing as you're so desperate to continue this, I'll own your first point.



Way to misinterpret the statement dumbass. If Bellatrix was his 'last and best lieutenant,' and only the current death eaters were being taken into account like you seem to think, the 'best' part of the statement would be completely redundant, seeing as she was the only one left. So clearly the statement was speaking of every Death Eater that's ever been in Voldemort's employ, which includes Snape. Point unmooted.

The rest of your points shall be owned tomorrow, but well done being so eager to get intellectually curbstomped, bravo big man. Seriously how stupid are you? Of course Snape wasn't regarded as being Voldemort's 'best lieutenant' as he had been working for Dumbledore, god think man.

Quirrell vs. Karkaroff?

Nobody?


How about:
Neville vs. Luna (both book 7)

I'd say Luna wins. Neville's older and more courageous, but I think that Luna's aim is better and just a better duelist.

Kingsley vs. McGonagall.

Hmm..... close one! I'm thinking maybe Kingsley, he did take out two death eaters at once in book 5, survived a duel with Bellatrix, and in book 7 he is surrounded by Death Eaters but fights his way out. McGonagall gets owned by Umbridge's goons (and has to go to St. Mungo's), she does fight Voldemort, but so does Kingsley, and she fights Snape and they are seemingly pretty even, though Snape would have been holding backl cause he doesn't wish to kill her. Close battle, though, but I go with the Ministries top Auror.



I disagree about Neville and Luna. Neville is a year older, he's had a years more experience, plus Luna being locked in the Malfoy's basement for a few months, while Neville was leading a rebellion against the Carrows, and thus increasing his skills even further. His Gran is even proud of him by the end of book 7.



Professon Quirrell vs. Karkaroff?

Originally posted by darthsith19
Hmm..... close one! I'm thinking maybe Kingsley, he did take out two death eaters at once in book 5, survived a duel with Bellatrix, and in book 7 he is surrounded by Death Eaters but fights his way out. McGonagall gets owned by Umbridge's goons (and has to go to St. Mungo's), she does fight Voldemort, but so does Kingsley, and she fights Snape and they are seemingly pretty even, though Snape would have been holding backl cause he doesn't wish to kill her. Close battle, though, but I go with the Ministries top Auror.

I disagree about Neville and Luna. Neville is a year older, he's had a years more experience, plus Luna being locked in the Malfoy's basement for a few months, while Neville was leading a rebellion against the Carrows, and thus increasing his skills even further. His Gran is even proud of him by the end of book 7.



Professon Quirrell vs. Karkaroff?

Oh, you meant for the battle to be staged with both of them in their conditions by Book 7, not just how good they were by the end of Book 7? Oh, then I'd agree with you.

Don't forget, though, even though Neville was a year older, both were given the same training by Harry, so Luna would've had the same amount of knowledge as Neville. (by the way, McGonagall was hit by surprise by Umbridge's goons, I think.)


About Quirrell and Karkaroff, I'd say Karkaroff would win. Even though we haven't seen much from either of them in the books, Karkaroff became the Headmaster of a school that excelled in the Dark Arts, indicating that he has extensive knowledge in that area. Wikipedia says that Quirrell was at best a mediocre wizard, but I haven't seen any evidence to support that. Quirrell was Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, showing that he also had some knowledge about the Dark Arts, but Karkaroff was older and more experienced.

Mad Eye Moody (in his prime) vs. Severus Snape.

Oooooooooooh, you're really good at this! I guess maybe Snape, he completely toyed with book 6 Harry after all, and book 6 Harry is already above avg. as far as fighting skills go. Moody... I'm guessing he was only a little bit ahead of Kingsley, seeing as Kingsley is the best, and Moody was the best, so he'd probably be around Bellatrix's level.



Wait, what? What's the difference?


But Neville improved faster than anyone except perhaps Hermione, he likely received more advanced stuff from Barty Crouch Jr. as a 4th year student than Luna did as a third year student, plus he had an extra year of DADA from Quirrell. Quirrell's classes may have been a bit of a joke, but I'm sure he taught them some stuff, as the book doesn't satate him to be completely worthless like Lockhart and Umbridge were. And he even went through one year of N.E.W.T. DADA with Snape, and Luna didn't.



Karkaroff has knowledge, yes, seeing as he was once a Death Eater. However, having knowledge doesn't mean that he has skill. About Quirrell being only mediocre, it also says "though this could be a simple coverup so no one suspects his secret." Which seems accurate: After all, Quirrell's stuttering was a cover-up ("Who would suspect p-p-poor, st-stuttering professor Quirrell?". Karkaroff is older than Snape, but Snape would beat him. Quirrell has performed magic without a wand, something we've only seen exceptional wizards do. He has done magic by snapping his fingers, and was about to perform a deadly curse using only his hands (when Harry touched his face to stop him). He broke into Gringotts and escaped from a high-security vault, which is supposed to be impossible. Also, he nearly had Harry off his broomstick even with Snape muttering his "silly-little counter curse". While Quirrell had a head-start (since he was already jinxking the broom by the time Snape started the counter-curse) and he may have practiced the curse before performing it to make sure nothing went wrong, but it's still impressive that he was able to nearly have Harry off his broom even with Snape trying to stop him. I'd say Quirrell kills Karkaroff, I think he's a lot stronger than people give him credit for, and no, I don't think Voldemort was increasing his powers, either. Voldemort was next to dead, he was pretty worthless on the back of Quirrell's head. Plus, in book 4, he says sometimes he possessed Snakes, but they soon died from being possessed by him, so if anything, Voldemort would have made Quirrell weaker rather than stronger.




Amelia Bones vs. Severus Snape?


Madam Maxime vs. Kingsley?

probably Snape, he is one of the most powerful wizards

Well, since Madame Maxime is part giant some spells would bounce off of her, but I think Kingsley could overcome that since how else would the giants have been defeated before? Of Course Madame Maxime is probably fairly powerful as a witch she is no match for Kingsley in dueling. Kingsley wins.


Sirius and Lupin vs Snape

Originally posted by darthsith19
Oooooooooooh, you're really good at this! I guess maybe Snape, he completely toyed with book 6 Harry after all, and book 6 Harry is already above avg. as far as fighting skills go. Moody... I'm guessing he was only a little bit ahead of Kingsley, seeing as Kingsley is the best, and Moody was the best, so he'd probably be around Bellatrix's level.



Wait, what? What's the difference?


But Neville improved faster than anyone except perhaps Hermione, he likely received more advanced stuff from Barty Crouch Jr. as a 4th year student than Luna did as a third year student, plus he had an extra year of DADA from Quirrell. Quirrell's classes may have been a bit of a joke, but I'm sure he taught them some stuff, as the book doesn't satate him to be completely worthless like Lockhart and Umbridge were. And he even went through one year of N.E.W.T. DADA with Snape, and Luna didn't.



Karkaroff has knowledge, yes, seeing as he was once a Death Eater. However, having knowledge doesn't mean that he has skill. About Quirrell being only mediocre, it also says "though this could be a simple coverup so no one suspects his secret." Which seems accurate: After all, Quirrell's stuttering was a cover-up ("Who would suspect p-p-poor, st-stuttering professor Quirrell?". Karkaroff is older than Snape, but Snape would beat him. Quirrell has performed magic without a wand, something we've only seen exceptional wizards do. He has done magic by snapping his fingers, and was about to perform a deadly curse using only his hands (when Harry touched his face to stop him). He broke into Gringotts and escaped from a high-security vault, which is supposed to be impossible. Also, he nearly had Harry off his broomstick even with Snape muttering his "silly-little counter curse". While Quirrell had a head-start (since he was already jinxking the broom by the time Snape started the counter-curse) and he may have practiced the curse before performing it to make sure nothing went wrong, but it's still impressive that he was able to nearly have Harry off his broom even with Snape trying to stop him. I'd say Quirrell kills Karkaroff, I think he's a lot stronger than people give him credit for, and no, I don't think Voldemort was increasing his powers, either. Voldemort was next to dead, he was pretty worthless on the back of Quirrell's head. Plus, in book 4, he says sometimes he possessed Snakes, but they soon died from being possessed by him, so if anything, Voldemort would have made Quirrell weaker rather than stronger.




Amelia Bones vs. Severus Snape?


Madam Maxime vs. Kingsley?

Thanks for the compliment.

Well, like you said, Luna was in a pretty poor state during Book 7. If she were in that state in her duel with Neville, she'd probably die pretty quickly. But if she were fully rested, she's do a lot better.

Like you said, Quirrell's classes were probably a joke. Even though he might've taught them some stuff, it most likely would've been teaching them defense against dark creatures, not defensive spells. Snape became Defense Against thee Dark Arts teacher?

I personally think that Voldemort was augumenting Quirrell's power, but you put up a persuasive argument otherwise. Voldemort's possesion of Quirrell must've shorted the latter's life-expectancy, but it can't be told whether or not Quirrell's magical proficiency diminished or not. Also, hand-magic is something not even the most powerful wizards could accomplish. McGonagal states in the seventh book that Snape survived the fall from the tower only because he had his wand, indicating that he lacked the power to perform hand-magic, despite his various other abilities.


To the other battle, I'd say that Lupin and Sirius win. Sirius has been seen as a very intelligent person and obviously has a good deal of magical potential as he managed to become an Animagus, and Lupin has shown inpressive dueling abilities. Snape alone could take either one, but both of them together would manage to beat Snape.


Tom Riddle vs. Albus Dumbledore (both as students in their final years)

Dumbledore
He was getting all those awards already, Riddle was extremely powerful but I don't see him winning this


Harry vs Lucius Malfoy

Harry from book 6 or 7 would win, I think, but in a straight-up fight I doubt book 5 Harry would win, and he definitely wouldn't win before that.



But remember that Bones put up a fight against Voldemort himself. Not saying I disagree, but just b/c Snape is one of the most powerful wizards doesn't mean he wins, since Amelia Bones is quite possible THE strongest witch.



You've no proof that it was dark creatures and not spells. I have a hard time believing that they didn't learn any DADA spells until book 4. They probably learned things like the full body bind, jelly legs curse, ect. cause they knew those in book 1, and that's basic DADA stuff.

And yes, Snape became DADA teacher, didn't you read book 6?


Well, obviously the most powerful wizards could perform magic without a wand, unless, of course, Quirrell is THE most powerful wizard, which he isn't. Dumbledore does magic with no wand in the first movie, but I don't know about other ppl in the books. When did Snape fall from the tower?


I agree, Lupin or Sirius alone could likely give Snape a decent fight, together that's like AOTC Obi-Wan times 2 vs. Kit Fisto (think that's a good comparison, Council#13?)





Harry (book 7) vs. Tonks?

Originally posted by darthsith19

You've no proof that it was dark creatures and not spells. I have a hard time believing that they didn't learn any DADA spells until book 4. They probably learned things like the full body bind, jelly legs curse, ect. cause they knew those in book 1, and that's basic DADA stuff.

And yes, Snape became DADA teacher, didn't you read book 6?


Well, obviously the most powerful wizards could perform magic without a wand, unless, of course, Quirrell is THE most powerful wizard, which he isn't. Dumbledore does magic with no wand in the first movie, but I don't know about other ppl in the books. When did Snape fall from the tower?


I agree, Lupin or Sirius alone could likely give Snape a decent fight, together that's like AOTC Obi-Wan times 2 vs. Kit Fisto (think that's a good comparison, Council#13?)


I agree that Quirrell must've taught them some minor spells, but Lupin (who taught defensive magic against mostly dark creatures) was described by the students as, "The best DADA teacher" they had had. Of course, Lockhart wasn't much to compare with, but still. Also, when Snape became Lupin's subsitute in Book 3, he mentions that the class had a decent knowledge of defending themselves against dark creatures, but their knowledge of defense against the Dark Arts was extremely poor.

Yeah, I just forgot. It's not a major theme in that book. Book 6 was the only Harry Potter book I've only read once.

Quirrell snaps his fingers to summon the ropes out of thin air, but unlike in the movie, he doesn't fly at Harry or even attempt to use magic to kill Harry, as far as we've seen. Dumbledore using magic in the first movie does not necessarily correlate with what happens in the book. Snape didn't fall from the tower per se, but he jumped out of it when he was forced to flee from the other teachers.

Yeah, that sounds like a pretty good comparison, although I find it difficult to imagine two Obi-Wan's.

When was this stated? If it was in book 3, then yeah, of course he was - Lockhart taught them nothing at all. And even if Quirrell was a mediocre teacher, Lupin (a good teacher), would still be better.

Yes, overall between Quirrell and Lupin (Lockhart didn't do shit) they probably only had like a year's worth of knowledge with spells, which is extremely poor for third years. Luna, on the other hand, was a second year student at that time, and had only really had 1/2 a year of DADA (again, Lockhart's lessons don't even count) and, assuming it was mostly learning about dark creatures, like what Lupin taught the third years, she'd be nothing really, she wouldn't have poor skills, she'd have no skills. And since then Neville learned as much or more than Luna did, and he was already ahead of her, so.


Not true. In book 1, Voldemort says "Kill him!" Here:

"Master, I cannot touch him - my hands - my hands!"

"Then kill him, fool, and be done!" screeched Voldemort.

Quirrell raised his hands to perform a deadly curse, but Harry, by instinct, reached up and grabbed Quirrell's face-




Yes, and turned flew. What does having a wand have to do with flying?


Maybe AOTC Obi-Wan and Anakin, then?







Harry (book 7) vs. Tonks?

Tonks would take it. i think harry is a good dueler but tonks has more experience


James Potter vs. Peter Petigrew and Lucius Malfoy

Hmm, good one, Wormtail is pretty average, Lucius is pretty strong, but James is a powerhouse. If he can kill cowardly Wormtail quickly, he could win. I'll say he wins, either he'll finish off Wormtail right away and then beat Lucius one on one, of Wormtail will be to cowardly to do anything (seeing as he knows how much stronger James is then he is, and James is an old friend of his).



I disagree about Tonks, she doesn't have that much experience, Harry has fought in all the battles she has, plus more, and she probably didn't do much in her short time as an Auror.





Tonks vs. Lucius Malfoy?

Originally posted by darthsith19
When was this stated? If it was in book 3, then yeah, of course he was - Lockhart taught them nothing at all. And even if Quirrell was a mediocre teacher, Lupin (a good teacher), would still be better.

Yes, overall between Quirrell and Lupin (Lockhart didn't do shit) they probably only had like a year's worth of knowledge with spells, which is extremely poor for third years. Luna, on the other hand, was a second year student at that time, and had only really had 1/2 a year of DADA (again, Lockhart's lessons don't even count) and, assuming it was mostly learning about dark creatures, like what Lupin taught the third years, she'd be nothing really, she wouldn't have poor skills, she'd have no skills. And since then Neville learned as much or more than Luna did, and he was already ahead of her, so.


Not true. In book 1, Voldemort says "Kill him!" Here:

"Master, I cannot touch him - my hands - my hands!"

"Then kill him, fool, and be done!" screeched Voldemort.

Quirrell raised his hands to perform a deadly curse, but Harry, by instinct, reached up and grabbed Quirrell's face-




Yes, and turned flew. What does having a wand have to do with flying?


Maybe AOTC Obi-Wan and Anakin, then?


If Quirrell and Lupin taught two completely different things, I don't think that the students would have been able to make a proper comparison between the two. Also, in the second year, Lockhart introduced Cornish Pixies, showing that defense against magical creatures was probably central in the DADA curriculum.

Judging by what we've seen of Neville up to book 5, he didn't quite absorb everything he was taught. Luna was much more skilled at magic, and manages to perform a Patronus by the end of book 7 (I'm not sure if Neville could or could create a corporal Patronus). Besides, neither one truly learned any actual defensive or offensive magic against other wizards until joining Dumbledore's Army, in which Luna probably performed better than Neville.

Yeah, okay, I was wrong there.

McGonagall said something like, "Yes, he survived. Unlike Dumbledore, he had his wand" or something like that. I can't find my copy of the seventh book. She implies that he used his wand to fly.

Hmmm, I'd say that 2 Obi-Wan's would be a better match against Kit Fisto. Anakin was reckless his whole life, and in AOTC, he didn't have the dueling skills to compensate for it.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Hmm, good one, Wormtail is pretty average, Lucius is pretty strong, but James is a powerhouse. If he can kill cowardly Wormtail quickly, he could win. I'll say he wins, either he'll finish off Wormtail right away and then beat Lucius one on one, of Wormtail will be to cowardly to do anything (seeing as he knows how much stronger James is then he is, and James is an old friend of his).

Tonks vs. Lucius Malfoy?

I don't actually think we've seen anything exceptional from Lucius Malfoy, and there's no proof that James was a powerhouse. He was a skilled wizard, true, but not to the degree of Dumbledore or Voldemort.

This is a close one. I'd say Lucius Malfoy. Even though Tonks was an Auror, as you've pointed out, she lacks experience. Lucius Malfoy has considerable experience probably from the first wizard war, giving him the advantage.


Lupin vs. McGonagall.

Oooooooooooh, close, hard to say since we've never seen McGonagall in a real fight (where her opponent is trying their hardest). At a guess, perhaps McGonagall, assuming, of course, that "stalemate" is not an option. And you, sire, get the award for posting the hardest battles possible.


Essential, yes, and if you take the first movie as evidence, when McGonagall goes to get Oliver Wood, Quirrell is seen holding a big lizard creature in front of the class. However, I'm sure Quirrell and Lupin both taught them spells, too. But as Lupin was a great teacher, but we only ever hear about him showing the class creatures, it can be deduced that he showed them creatures more often then he taught them spells.


He did in Herbology - in that subject, he was one of the best, maybe even the best, in his year. And DADA is probably his second best subject, and he did good with the Bogart, so most likely he absorbed more stuff in that class than he did in, say, Potions, or Transfiguration.


Hmm, was that right after he jumps, or later in the book? I can't remember anything like that, but I'll try to look for it later.


That's why I said 2 Kenobi's, cause Anakin is to reckless and not strong enough in comparison. Time for a new comparison:

It's like Ki-Adi Mundi and A'Sharad Hett vs. Dooku (or Plo and Mundi vs. Dooku, or Plo and Jinn, something like that?). It's like Yoda and Mace vs. DE Sidious (better?).


Oh, I never said he was on Voldemort or Dumbledore's level, by a powerhosue I mean he was exceptionally strong, for Dumbledore and Voldemort I'd say their extraordinary prodigies. James is just very strong.


I agree, also in book 5 Tonks gets defeated at the Ministry of Magic, and I think the book said something like Malfoy was shooting spells at her, so it's likely he took her out (could have been Bellatrix who was shooting spells at her, though, I'm not positive.) It could also have been a random spell that hit her, but if Malfoy was fighting her already it's likely that it was he who defeated her.




Lupin, Sirius, James vs. Kingsley, Tonks, McGonagall


I'm thinking this will be close, cause Kingsley and McGonagall are probably the 2 strongest, not by much, though, but Tonks is definitely below everybody else.

Originally posted by darthsith19
And you, sire, get the award for posting the hardest battles possible.


Essential, yes, and if you take the first movie as evidence, when McGonagall goes to get Oliver Wood, Quirrell is seen holding a big lizard creature in front of the class. However, I'm sure Quirrell and Lupin both taught them spells, too. But as Lupin was a great teacher, but we only ever hear about him showing the class creatures, it can be deduced that he showed them creatures more often then he taught them spells.


He did in Herbology - in that subject, he was one of the best, maybe even the best, in his year. And DADA is probably his second best subject, and he did good with the Bogart, so most likely he absorbed more stuff in that class than he did in, say, Potions, or Transfiguration.


Hmm, was that right after he jumps, or later in the book? I can't remember anything like that, but I'll try to look for it later.


That's why I said 2 Kenobi's, cause Anakin is to reckless and not strong enough in comparison. Time for a new comparison:

It's like Ki-Adi Mundi and A'Sharad Hett vs. Dooku (or Plo and Mundi vs. Dooku, or Plo and Jinn, something like that?). It's like Yoda and Mace vs. DE Sidious (better?).


Oh, I never said he was on Voldemort or Dumbledore's level, by a powerhosue I mean he was exceptionally strong, for Dumbledore and Voldemort I'd say their extraordinary prodigies. James is just very strong.


Lupin, Sirius, James vs. Kingsley, Tonks, McGonagall


I finally get an award for all the hard work I've put into everything throughout the course of my life. touched Thank you.

In Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, they refer to Quirrell's class as a joke:
The class everyone had really been looking forward to was Defense Against the Dark Arts, but Quirrell's lessons turned out to be a bit of a joke.

Herbology wouldn't help him very much in a duel. And the rest of the class had no problems with handling a Boggart (excluding Harry). Besides, most of the spells (as we've decided) that they learned in DADA were to be used against dark creatures. Both Luna and Neville received the exact same training from Harry while being part of Dumbledore's Army.

That was right after he jumps. Just after that, the teachers go about preparing Hogwart's defenses.

Honestly, I'm clueless when it comes to any duelists outside of the Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon-training period to the ROTJ period. Basically, I only have a real idea of the characters of the PT and Clone Wars era.

Right, I clearly misunderstood you there. But James and Lily were repeatedly said to be "Great wizards", but that might have been due to their personalities and tolerant nature rather than their magical abilities. Not that I'm saying they were worthless, of course, I'm just saying that they were probably around Sirius's level.

Erm, that's a difficult one. I'd say that Lupin, Sirius, and James with this one. Tonks (like you said) is probably the weakest link. Besides, the three of them were best friends, and would be better able to work as a team than the other trio.

Flitwick vs. Kingsley

That's close, Flitwick was a dueling champion, but that was in his day. Still, in book 7 he kicks ass, helping McGonagall get rid of Snape, surviving the battle and even taking down Dolohov. It's really impossible to say, cause how hard was it to take down Dolohov? While I think that Kingsley could take down Dolohov, I doubt it would be quick or easy. I'd say Kingsley could likely beat Flitwick, but as we've only ever heard what Flitwick has done, and never have had any details, it's basically an educated guess.



Yes, I know, and I've agreed to this, I said it may have been kind of a lame class, but I'm sure he taught them some stuff.


But the fact that he's excellent at Herbology proves that he can absorb knowledge in areas that he's good in, so DADA he would absorb knowledge in, since it's (probably) his second best subject.

I know Harry taught them the same stuff. So what they recieved in books 2, 3, 4 and 5 would be the same, but Neville progressed faster in book 5 than she did, plus in book 6 he has a N.E.W.T.S DADA class, so he's learn more than she did in book 6, and add to that whatever he learned in book 1, and I'd put him above her, not by a lot, but above her.




Oh, I agree, I'm thinking Lupin, Sirius and James are equals - Lupin never got defeated in a duel, except his final one (where he died). Sirius was strong enough that he was able to duel Bellatrix for some time, and could possibly have beaten her if he hadn't started toying with her (the fact that he started toying with her makes it seem like he was winning). James and Sirius together were enough to take out Snape (during their fifth year). I rank them quite high.


Probably, but Tonks and Lupin are husband/wife, Lupin and McGonagall are old colleagues. I agree, though, I think one of the friends would take Tonks whle the otehrs fight McGonagall and Knigsley. They the friend who killed Tonks could help with McGonagall, 2 on 1, McGonagall goes down, but at the same time Kingsley kills his opponent. The two friends left take out Kingsley then.


Anyways,

McGonagall vs. Bellatrix

Originally posted by darthsith19

But the fact that he's excellent at Herbology proves that he can absorb knowledge in areas that he's good in, so DADA he would absorb knowledge in, since it's (probably) his second best subject.

I know Harry taught them the same stuff. So what they recieved in books 2, 3, 4 and 5 would be the same, but Neville progressed faster in book 5 than she did, plus in book 6 he has a N.E.W.T.S DADA class, so he's learn more than she did in book 6, and add to that whatever he learned in book 1, and I'd put him above her, not by a lot, but above her.

Anyways,

McGonagall vs. Bellatrix

There's no proof to support the fact that he had any skill in Defense Against the Dark Arts. Even if he didn't do too well Transfiguration, Potions, and Charms, it doesn't necessarily mean that DADA was one of his strong points.

Like I said earlier, even if he did have a N.E.W.T in DADA, he most likely didn't pick anything up, especially since Snape was the teacher during the sixth book and often bullied Neville.


That's a tough battle. I'd say Bellatrix, though. McGonagall is good, but she's way older than Bellatrix. Also, McGonagall is probably slightly less powerful than Snape, who is probably about the same level and Bellatrix.

Neville's grandmother vs. Lucius Malfoy.

Mrs. Longbottom, she seemed real impressive escaping when the Death eaters/Ministry People tried to arrest her, and fighting in the Battle of Hogwarts and all.


There is proof. He only takes 3 N.E.W.T. classes - Herbologry (his best subject and only "O", Charms and DADA (both which he got "E"'s in). So DADA is either his second or third best subject. He got "A" in Transfiguration, and A or lower in every other subject.


fyi, Ron and Hermione both got "E's" in DADA, so Neville is at least somewhat close to them.




Maybe, but he was better at DADA then at Potions, so he may have learned despite the bullying, especially seeing as after book 5 he really tried hard in DADA due to the escape of the Death eaters / the rise of Lord Voldemort.


So are Voldemort and Dumbledore, though. Just saying, I don't think age makes a huge difference.




Aberforth Dumbledore vs. Lucius Malfoy?

Originally posted by darthsith19
Mrs. Longbottom, she seemed real impressive escaping when the Death eaters/Ministry People tried to arrest her, and fighting in the Battle of Hogwarts and all.


There is proof. He only takes 3 N.E.W.T. classes - Herbologry (his best subject and only "O", Charms and DADA (both which he got "E"'s in). So DADA is either his second or third best subject. He got "A" in Transfiguration, and A or lower in every other subject.


Maybe, but he was better at DADA then at Potions, so he may have learned despite the bullying, especially seeing as after book 5 he really tried hard in DADA due to the escape of the Death eaters / the rise of Lord Voldemort.


Aberforth Dumbledore vs. Lucius Malfoy?

Actually, it was just Dawlish who went to arrest her. And he ended up in the hosiptal.

The N.E.W.T's were mostly theological tests, as far as I know. The examinations did require the use of wands, but very limited.

Everyone would have tried very hard in that subject, seeing as the news of Voldemort's rise became public knowledge. I'm not saying that Neville didn't do any better, I'm just saying that his abilities in DADA weren't exceptional, especially since he was very clumsy (something that JK left out in the later books).

I'd say that Aberforth wins this one. He was skilled enough to be able to duel both Albus and Grindelwald, and had no problem standing up to a group of Death Eaters at the door of his pub. The fact that they didn't try to force an entry shows that he was respected by even his enemies and a duelist.


Dawlish vs. Lucius Malfoy.

Probably Dawlish - he seems to always have misfortune, but he was one of 2 Auror's that personally protected Fudge, and recieved all "O's" in his N.E.W.T.S.



Neville tried the hardest of all, though, in book 5 it describes how his face was screwed up in concentration.



But he was merely trying to stop Grindelwald and Dumbledore, Grindelwald used the Cruciatus Curse on Aberforth easily, and then Dumbledore stopped him. It was stated before that Aberforth had none of his brothers talent.


As for the Death Eaters, I think they just didn't want to mess with him because he was valuable to them, didn't he say they smuggled dark artifacts through his bar? I don't think they were really afraid of him, and if they were, it was probably because he was supposed to be crazy, performing illegal hexes on goats and breaking Albus's nose and such.






Aberforth vs. Dawlish

Originally posted by darthsith19

Neville tried the hardest of all, though, in book 5 it describes how his face was screwed up in concentration.



But he was merely trying to stop Grindelwald and Dumbledore, Grindelwald used the Cruciatus Curse on Aberforth easily, and then Dumbledore stopped him. It was stated before that Aberforth had none of his brothers talent.


As for the Death Eaters, I think they just didn't want to mess with him because he was valuable to them, didn't he say they smuggled dark artifacts through his bar? I don't think they were really afraid of him, and if they were, it was probably because he was supposed to be crazy, performing illegal hexes on goats and breaking Albus's nose and such.


Aberforth vs. Dawlish

I haven't got any doubts that Neville tried really hard, but how far he got is still debatable.


Grindelwald had caught Aberforth off guard. Even though Albus interfered with Grindelwald cursing Aberforth, the fact that he held his own against both of them is saying something in his favor. It's never stated whether or not it was a fight between all three of them, or if any of them were holding back. I'm not sure if him not having any of his brother's talent was ever stated. I remember reading that Albus could've beaten him with his hands tied behind his back, and that Aberforth was often overshadowed by his brother's brilliance, but I don't think that there was any statement about his abilities as a wizard.

I'm not sure if they did smuggle objects into his bar, but I doubt that they even needed to smuggle by the time they were in control of the Ministry. If the Death Eaters were concerned about Aberforth doing something crazy to them, I'd say that they were afraid of him, even if just a little bit. Imagine him turning them into goats and hexing them.


I'd say Aberforth wins. Dawlish might've been a great theoretical wizard (getting all O's in his NEWTS), but so far we haven't seen anything spectacular from him. In his defense, it's true that both Kingsley and Fudge were knocked out by Dumbledore, and Snape was a powerful wizard so he would've had no troubles Confunding Dawlish, but Neville said something about the Ministry, "Not sending anyone too powerful" to arrest his grandmother.

Tom Riddle vs. Tonks.

Tom Riddle when? As a ten-year old? As a 15-year old, as a 20-year old? A 30-year old? That's too vague.




I'm sure Aberforth and Grindelwald were fighting with Albus not fighting either of them, but trying to stop both of them, as that's what makes sense. And trying to stop them likely equates to stopping many deadly spells from Grindelwald.


That's what I meant. If he can beat him so easily and was so much more brilliant than him, then what would make him not a more talented wizard?


Hmm, I don't know, I remember him saying something like that, I'll check later.


Neville could have been mistaken - how would he know how strong Dawlish is, anyway? He probably just assumed, since she escaped, that they didn't send anyone powerful, which is true - Dawlish was confounded, so he wasn't to powerful then.
In book 5 it says he progressed faster than anyone else in the DA apart from Hermione, so how far he got isn't so debatable.





Aberforth vs. McGonagall

Originally posted by darthsith19
Tom Riddle when? As a ten-year old? As a 15-year old, as a 20-year old? A 30-year old? That's too vague.


I'm sure Aberforth and Grindelwald were fighting with Albus not fighting either of them, but trying to stop both of them, as that's what makes sense. And trying to stop them likely equates to stopping many deadly spells from Grindelwald.

That's what I meant. If he can beat him so easily and was so much more brilliant than him, then what would make him not a more talented wizard?

Neville could have been mistaken - how would he know how strong Dawlish is, anyway? He probably just assumed, since she escaped, that they didn't send anyone powerful, which is true - Dawlish was confounded, so he wasn't to powerful then.

In book 5 it says he progressed faster than anyone else in the DA apart from Hermione, so how far he got isn't so debatable.

Aberforth vs. McGonagall

Sorry, I meant Tom Riddle as in when he graduated.

Actually, I forgot to mention this earlier. Ariana was killed during the three-way duel between them, and Albus wasn't sure which of the three had sent the curse that had killed her. That means that all three of them were using offensive spells.

I didn't say that Albus was far superior to Aberforth, I just intended to say that Aberforth must have had some of the magical skill and talent that ran strongly the Dumbledore family's blood.

I'm sure if Dawlish was given to the Minister of Magic for protection, his exploits would've been well known. Seeing as at the time everyone thought that there were no exceptionally powerful dark wizards running loose at the time, the Minister's bodyguards were more likely for show than for actual protection.

Just because Neville progressed quickly does not mean that he performed any better than the rest of them. He may have started far behind the rest of the class, and managed to catch up.

I'd say McGonagall wins this one. Aberforth's skill is unknown, but I'm assuming he's got talent. McGonagall, on the other hand, managed to fight off Snape (even though he wasn't trying to hurt her) and seemed pretty hardcore during all of her duels.


I'll repost that one with Tom Riddle (end of his education) vs. Tonks.

Tom and probably pretty easily as well. By the end of his education, Dumbledore was already extremely powerful, and had done things with his wand that Griselda Marchbanks had never seen with a wand before, indicating that he is already likely one of the strongest wizards alive. Tom Riddle was probably almost as advanced as Dumbledore by his seventh year, considering that later they are pretty much on par with one another.




Oh yeah, but Albus was likely aiming kost as Grindelwald, in order to stop him from killing Aberforth.


But did it? We know nothing about the skills of any of the other Dumbledore's. Maybe Albus was just an exceptional child. Tom Riddle was, but his family didn't appear to be anywhere near powerful. I don't think greatness runs in your blood.


He was also the only DA member still standing at the end of the battle at the Ministry of Magic, apart from Harry.



Harry (book 7) vs. Aberforth

Originally posted by darthsith19
But did it? We know nothing about the skills of any of the other Dumbledore's. Maybe Albus was just an exceptional child. Tom Riddle was, but his family didn't appear to be anywhere near powerful. I don't think greatness runs in your blood.


He was also the only DA member still standing at the end of the battle at the Ministry of Magic, apart from Harry.



Harry (book 7) vs. Aberforth

Ariana had some skill, as far as I know. I think it was said somewhere that his father was a notable wizard. I'm not sure, though.

That might've been because he was dueling less dangerous Death Eaters.

I'd say Aberforth wins this. Harry hasn't show all that great of dueling skills in his life.


Sirius Black vs. James Potter.

I'd say even. We really haven't seen enough from James to say for sure, but they both beat Snape together in book 5 pretty evenly, were best buddies, were considered strong wizards. So the best I can give is even, and Lupin would be even, too, I think.



What, like Dolohov? And he did get his nose broken, but he was still standing.




Dawlish vs. Book 7 Harry?

Originally posted by darthsith19

What, like Dolohov? And he did get his nose broken, but he was still standing.


Dawlish vs. Book 7 Harry?

Harry and Neville stood up to Dolohov together. He wasn't alone. His nose being broken wouldn't have much affected his abilities to run around, although it apparently affected his spell casting abilities.

Hmm, I'd say Harry wins this.


Mad Eye Moody vs. Rufus Scrimgeour.

Impossible to say, Rufus is an unknown, however, I am certain that in his prime Moody would take him, but in his old age? Likely Rufus would win, but that's a mere guess.



Yes, but he was still standing. And them fighting together didn't stop Dolohov from nearly killing Hermione, just as all of them fighting together didn't stop Ginny, Ron and Luna from all going down.




Lupin vs. Sirius

Originally posted by darthsith19
Impossible to say, Rufus is an unknown, however, I am certain that in his prime Moody would take him, but in his old age? Likely Rufus would win, but that's a mere guess.



Yes, but he was still standing. And them fighting together didn't stop Dolohov from nearly killing Hermione, just as all of them fighting together didn't stop Ginny, Ron and Luna from all going down.




Lupin vs. Sirius

Yeah, we've got nothing to go on Rufus' skill except for the fact that he was head of the Auror department. That would probably put him more or less at the level of Kingsley or somewhere close.

All the ones you've stated were fighting Death Eaters by themselves, not with someone else. Hermione was also taken down while they were running, and Ron had a "brain" attached to his face. Also, don't forget that the Death Eaters weren't aiming to kill the kids. They wanted to have something to negotiate with Harry in return for the prophecy.


I'd say Lupin wins this. Sirius is pretty good, but Lupin I'd say is just a better duelist. I've really got nothing to base my theory on, seeing as Sirius was killed dueling Bellatrix, who was one of the most dangerous Death Eaters.

Barty Crouch Sr. vs. Kingsley.

Kingsley, as we've never seen anything from Crouch.




Not true, Hermione was fighting when she was taken down. Yes, Ron had a brain attached to his face, but all of them were there and they couldn't stop him, due to the unknown spell he had been hit with earlier, when fighting.

And the Death eaters were aiming to kill, Dolohov damn near killed Hermione, they only needed some of them alive tor negotiation.


Yeah, but if Sirius hadn't been playing around, he could for sure have held off Bellatrix at least until Dumbledore intervened, and he and Lupin would have both been the only Order members to escape the battle unharmed (apart from Dumbledore).





Kingsley vs. Dolohov?

Originally posted by darthsith19
Kingsley, as we've never seen anything from Crouch.

Not true, Hermione was fighting when she was taken down. Yes, Ron had a brain attached to his face, but all of them were there and they couldn't stop him, due to the unknown spell he had been hit with earlier, when fighting. And the Death eaters were aiming to kill, Dolohov damn near killed Hermione, they only needed some of them alive tor negotiation.

Yeah, but if Sirius hadn't been playing around, he could for sure have held off Bellatrix at least until Dumbledore intervened, and he and Lupin would have both been the only Order members to escape the battle unharmed (apart from Dumbledore).

Kingsley vs. Dolohov?

Well, Crouch was the head of the Magical Enforcement Department, and was a top candidate for the position as Minister of Magic. That's something in his favor, even if we haven't seen him battle. He was also described as a powerful wizard.

Are you sure? I thought they were running, Hermione silenced Dolohov who shot the purple flames at her, knocking her out. I don't recall Ron being hit by any spell at the time. Also, it's not as if there was a single Death Eater they were fighting. They were against equal numbers of Death Eaters as there were Dumbledore's Army members. And if they were aiming to kill, why did the Death Eaters not use the Avada Kadavera? It's unlikely that a few 14/15 year olds would be able to stand up to that.

Regardless, Sirius would have lost to Bellatrix. Also, (this sounds retarded, but still) Sirius may not have been sure that he could win the duel, so he may have been goading Bellatrix into making a mistake.

Hmmm, that's a difficult one. Dolohov has taken out powerful duelists like Lupin and Moody (although the latter was out of his prime), but I'd put him slightly below Bellatrix, who is slightly above Kingsley. Kingsley managed to fight his way out a swarm of Death Eaters, so that works in his favor. But it seems like he is better at dueling multiple opponents rather than single opponents (note Bellatrix). A tough fight, but I'd say Dolohov wins.


Amelia Bones vs. Grindelwald.

Grindelwald, Bones did put up a fight against Voldemort himself, but Grindelwald vs. Voldemort would be so close it would almost be even.


So he knew his shit when it came to law enforcement, and people liked the good job he was doing, the authority he produced, so he was thought to be the next MOM. That doesn't necessarily mean he's powerful. Take Fudge for example, he was the MOM, I bet a lot of wizards would kill him, and Kingsley would own him.


When was he described as a p[powerful wizard?



They were, and some Death Eaters attacked them. Two, actually. Harry, Nevile, Hermione hid under tables. One of the Death eaters looks under the table Harry is under, WHAM! Harry hits him with a spell. hen Hermione silences the other (Dolohov) and he turns to her, and purple flames shoot out of his wand, almost killing her. Harry hits with with Pertrificus Totalius (sp?).

idk why they didn't use Avada Kedavra, I guess one explanation is, it destroyed the Potter's entire house, they didn't want to destroy the prohpecy by accident. Also, sometimes they just don't use it, Dumbledore says in book 7 in Snape memories that Bellatrix likes to torture her foes before killing them, some people, like Snape, prefer secemsempra, as it will likely kill the victim anyways, as will Dolohov's spell.

As for Ron, when Harry, Neville 9with a broken nose) and Hermione (being carried by Neville) meet up with Ron, Luna and Ginny, it says something like "Of the 3, Luna seemed to be the only one who was unharmed." Ginny had broken (sprained?) her ankle. Ron had been hit with an unknown spell, and that's what caused him to act funny and touch the brain in the first place. "Harry, there are BRAINS in there? Wanna touch them, Harry? I bet they feel weird."



Possibly, I think he was just being reckless, trying to have some fun. So you think if Bellatrix hadn't toyed with Molly she would still have died or not?


And I really can't debate your Kingsley vs. Dolohov answer, since I've really no idea who's win. Flitwick did take Dolohov out, though.




Flitwick vs. Bellatrix?

Originally posted by darthsith19
So he knew his shit when it came to law enforcement, and people liked the good job he was doing, the authority he produced, so he was thought to be the next MOM. That doesn't necessarily mean he's powerful. Take Fudge for example, he was the MOM, I bet a lot of wizards would kill him, and Kingsley would own him.


When was he described as a p

Obviously he had to have some talent to become head of Law Enforcement. That means that he was in charge of the Aurors even, putting him higher up and most likely more powerful than the head of the Auror department. Although we've seen nothing of Fudge's fighting capabilities, it can be assumed that he is somewhat proficient at magic, as he wanted to be the one to greet Harry to protect him when Sirius broke loose. Also, it can be assumed that being a powerful wizard is at least one of the requirements as to becoming the Minister, as Dumbledore was also a top contender for the position.

I'm not sure where it's stated, but it's in there. Fifth book.

Hmmmm, I didn't read that part. And I was wrong about Ron being sucked by the brain. My bad.

With Moody, Harry, and his friend's lives at stake, I doubt Sirius would have played around with a witch as dangerous as Bellatrix. Also, seeing as Molly came from a family of powerful wizards (her two brothers, for example), I think that Molly would have had a good chance of beating Bellatrix regardless. Molly was pretty angry, too. You don't want to have an angry mother on your back. I once had this rampaging she-bear chasing after me. The only thing I could do was wrestle her to the ground, and it wasn't easy.


Hmmm, this one is difficult. I'd say Bellatrix wins, though. Flitwick is good (he was formerly a dueling champion and beat Dolohov), but I doubt he can beat Bellatrix. She fought and beat Sirius, Tonks, and Kingsley one after the other. She also dueled Hermoine, Ginny, and Luna simultaneously. It's a tough fight, but Bellatrix wins.


Neville's grandmother vs. Lucius Malfoy

Neville's Grandma.


Yes, you have to have leadership skills, governing skills, but not necessarily dueling skills. You don't have to be a good fighter to be in charge of the WWE, but to be in it you have to be good - you don't have to have good fighting abilities to be head of the Auror's, you just have to be good at leading the aurors, giving them assignments, ect.


We also see that Fudge is a dundering moron, that could be why he greeted Harry, because he is stupid. Dumbledore had tons of wisdom, and was great, so people wanted him to become MoM, that in no way means Fudge is good, let alone good at dueling in specific.


But their lives weren't at stake - the Order had arrived and was wiping out the Death eaters, quickly, and he just wanted to have some fun. He knew the Order had the situation under control by that point.

As for Molly, just because her relatives are strong doesn't mean that she is, and what about her brothers? And anger doesn't exactly help you except in a physical fight?

You wrestled an angry bear to the ground? Hmm...




Neville's Grandma vs. Book 7 Harry?

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yes, you have to have leadership skills, governing skills, but not necessarily dueling skills. You don't have to be a good fighter to be in charge of the WWE, but to be in it you have to be good - you don't have to have good fighting abilities to be head of the Auror's, you just have to be good at leading the aurors, giving them assignments, ect.


We also see that Fudge is a dundering moron, that could be why he greeted Harry, because he is stupid. Dumbledore had tons of wisdom, and was great, so people wanted him to become MoM, that in no way means Fudge is good, let alone good at dueling in specific.


But their lives weren't at stake - the Order had arrived and was wiping out the Death eaters, quickly, and he just wanted to have some fun. He knew the Order had the situation under control by that point.

As for Molly, just because her relatives are strong doesn't mean that she is, and what about her brothers? And anger doesn't exactly help you except in a physical fight?

You wrestled an angry bear to the ground? Hmm...


Neville's Grandma vs. Book 7 Harry?

The head of the police department has to work his/her way up the ranks, showing that they are capable both in the field and at leading others. To be head of the Aurors is something. To be the head of the head of Aurors is also something.

The fact that Fudge refused to acknowledge Voldemort's return doesn't make him a moron. Plenty of powerful wizards didn't want to believe it. Practically the entire Ministry.

Moody (one of the Order's better duelists) had gone down, and the students were in a pretty sad state. The Death Eaters had fighters like Bellatrix, Dolohov, and Malfoy on their sides. I'd say that there wasn't much room for messing around.

Skill seems to have a tendency to run in the blood, as far as we've seen. Like you've said, Neville's gotten a lot better and is a pretty skilled duelist (from his parents and his grandmother). Harry is a powerful wizard (his ancestor was one of the Perival brothers and both his parents were great wizards). Voldemort was a descendant from Slytherin, one of the most powerful wizards of his time. Sirius and Bellatrix, cousins, were both skilled. As for anger, I'd bet that it enhances your magical ability if you put all your emotion behind your spellcasting.

Heck yeah, I wrestled one. For some reason, people never believe me.

I'd say Harry wins. He's gotten pretty good, I'd say, by book 7, and Neville's grandmother (boy is she funny) managed to take out the Auror Dawlish, but that was more due to the element of surprise.


Voldemort vs. Dumbledore (both book 5, no Elder Wand).

Yes, but then again, Crouch wasn't the head of the Auror Department, he was the head of Magical Law Enforcement.


Yup, but the entire ministry didn't have direct proof that he had returned - the entire ministry hadn't seen Karkaroff flee, see Snape's Dark Mark burn, have Dumbledore himself shout proof that Voldemort did return.


Also in book 1 Hagrid tells harry that Fudge is stupid. I'll post a quote is you want one.



True, and Sirius was unaware that Dumbledore arrived, but as old cousins I think he was being kind of reckless.


If skill runs in blood, where did Hermione get it? Hmm? What about Voldemort? And other mudbloods? And the Morfin's didn't seem powerful at all.


Maybe it's because your sixteen and it is very hard for even experts to fend off an angry she-bear, why did it attack you?


I say Dumbledore wins, if Voldemort would win they he shouldn't have ran from the ministry in book 5, I don't see how he could know that ministry officials were coming, plus he is afraid of Dumbledore.




Neville's Grandma vs. Ginny (book 7)

Originally posted by Council#13



Voldemort vs. Dumbledore (both book 5, no Elder Wand).

How can he fight without the Elder Wand? Then he'd have no wand.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yes, but then again, Crouch wasn't the head of the Auror Department, he was the head of Magical Law Enforcement.


Yup, but the entire ministry didn't have direct proof that he had returned - the entire ministry hadn't seen Karkaroff flee, see Snape's Dark Mark burn, have Dumbledore himself shout proof that Voldemort did return.


Also in book 1 Hagrid tells harry that Fudge is stupid. I'll post a quote is you want one.



True, and Sirius was unaware that Dumbledore arrived, but as old cousins I think he was being kind of reckless.


If skill runs in blood, where did Hermione get it? Hmm? What about Voldemort? And other mudbloods? And the Morfin's didn't seem powerful at all.


Maybe it's because your sixteen and it is very hard for even experts to fend off an angry she-bear, why did it attack you?


I say Dumbledore wins, if Voldemort would win they he shouldn't have ran from the ministry in book 5, I don't see how he could know that ministry officials were coming, plus he is afraid of Dumbledore.




Neville's Grandma vs. Ginny (book 7)

Nevilles Grandma. Ginny's good and all, but she's only a seventh year and not as experienced. Plus, Nevilles Grandma pwned Dawlish, who is supposedly a pretty powerful wizard.

Originally posted by darthsith19


I say Dumbledore wins, if Voldemort would win they he shouldn't have ran from the ministry in book 5, I don't see how he could know that ministry officials were coming, plus he is afraid of Dumbledore.

In that fight Dumbledore had the Eldar Wand. And also Voldemort did know that the Auror's were coming , as Dumbledore said somehting like "You were foolish to come here tonight Tom, the Auror's are on their way".

Voldemort would definately win this fight.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yes, but then again, Crouch wasn't the head of the Auror Department, he was the head of Magical Law Enforcement.

Yup, but the entire ministry didn't have direct proof that he had returned - the entire ministry hadn't seen Karkaroff flee, see Snape's Dark Mark burn, have Dumbledore himself shout proof that Voldemort did return.

Also in book 1 Hagrid tells harry that Fudge is stupid. I'll post a quote is you want one.

True, and Sirius was unaware that Dumbledore arrived, but as old cousins I think he was being kind of reckless.

If skill runs in blood, where did Hermione get it? Hmm? What about Voldemort? And other mudbloods? And the Morfin's didn't seem powerful at all.

Maybe it's because your sixteen and it is very hard for even experts to fend off an angry she-bear, why did it attack you?


Yes, being head of the Law Enforcement put him above the Head of the Auror department.

The entire Ministry didn't have proof, but neither did the entire wizarding world, but some of them still believed Harry and Dumbledore.

Nah, it's okay. Hagrid is loyal to Dumbledore, and he would naturally feel that Fudge is an idiot for thinking that Dumbledore wants his position as Minister of Magic.

They weren't very close cousins. The only cousin he was close to was Tonks' mother. He just hated the rest of them and their obsession with blood purity.

Hermoine wasn't necessarily powerful, she was just really intelligent. Both her parents were dentists, so that's where she probably got her brains from. Voldemort was a direct descendant of Slytherin, one of the most powerful wizards of his age. I'm not sure who the Morfins are, so I won't reply to those.

It attacked me because I ate it's young.

Originally posted by Arctic
How can he fight without the Elder Wand? Then he'd have no wand.

Honestly, I think you knew what I meant, but just to clarify, I mean that Dumbledore would be using the wand he used before acquiring the Elder Wand.


Draco Malfoy (book 7) vs. Hermione (also book 7)

Originally posted by Spidervlad
Sirius was killed by a stunning spell from Bellatrix. As we see in the end of The Deathly Hallows, Bellatrix fought 3 students who were at the end of their education. Althought I have no idea how the hell did Mrs.Weasley beat Bellatrix. That was probably Rowling's stupidest idea in the book.

However, I think Minerva has both the knowledge and power to beat Flitwick, althought Flitwick would be hard to hit because of his height and he knows some usefull spells.




I'm not sure, but I think that Snape would take this one. Snape was amazing, and he is probably the most powerful charachter in Harry Potter after Voldemort and Dumbeldore. He was taken by surprise when Minerva was right next to him, yet he still blocked the spell. He reacted in miliseconds... So I think Snape takes this one. After that, I would also like to say that Snape would easily overpower Minerva. He jumped out of the window only because he saw the other proffesors coming up. I would also like to add that as we found out later Snape never wanted to kill anyone, therefore he was keeping his full power back from Minerva. I'm sure he could've sent a killing curse at her which would hit her easily. After all, he could read her mind, his reactions are incredible, and he can cast powerful spells without speaking them aloud.



I see what your getting at Gideon, but I was never sure if Voldemort took in the Death Eaters by their power levels. Some were notably weaker than the rest. And I didn't see 5th year students having that much of a problem resisting them at the Ministry. If they weren't outnumbered they would've made up a hell of a resistance. And don't you remember how he tried to take Neville in as a Death Eater? He didn't know how powerful Neville was. Voldemort wanted loyal death eaters who were pureblood and who would sacrifice their lives for him. But then, I know he wouldn't take in those who were uneducated in the dark arts. Lucius must be a good wizard, but no match for Sirius. He probably stands at the level of Dolohov or Yaxley.



Kingsley definately, he was a very good auror and he was appointed the most important tasks by the order such as securing the Muggle minister. Moody was way out of his years, but if it was his "days" when he was capturing the Death Eaters he would take Kingsley.



This is probably the "closest battle" yet in this thread. Dolohov is a death eater, and he was 'closer' to Voldemort than the others, althought not as close as Snape or Bellatrix. We never heard any dueling feats from Slughorn so I'll say Dolohov.





Bellatrix.










Fenrir Greyback vs Hagrid

I'd like to point out that Madame Maxime has Giant Blood, so she'd be very hard to take down, not to mention she could easily smush Bellatrix even with out magic.

Is Fenir in human state?

Being Governor puts you above the police enforcement, so could a Governor take out a policeman? In most cases the policeman would likely win.

And if the entire wizarding world did have proof, I doubt many of them would believe Fudge. The avg. ones believed Fudge. Only the smart ones believed Harry and Dumbledore.

That was in book one, before Fudge thought that - Fudge didn't think that until book 5.

They weren't close, no, but they could have known each otehr well, been at family events together, loathed each other, ect. If it was James and Snape fighting in that case, even with everybody in trouble, I'd bet anything that James would get reckless.

Hermione was really powerful, she progressed faster than anybody else in the DA. She was second best in the year at DADA. She was powerful.

How would it know you ate it's young unless it saw you kill them (in which case it would kill you, too).

Hermione beats Draco.



Book 7 Crabbe vs. Malfoy?

Originally posted by potcfan2003
I'd like to point out that Madame Maxime has Giant Blood, so she'd be very hard to take down, not to mention she could easily smush Bellatrix even with out magic.


A simple Killing Curse would be sufficient for Bellatrix. Madame Maxime may be good, but she isn't nearly at the level of Bellatrix.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Being Governor puts you above the police enforcement, so could a Governor take out a policeman? In most cases the policeman would likely win.

And if the entire wizarding world did have proof, I doubt many of them would believe Fudge. The avg. ones believed Fudge. Only the smart ones believed Harry and Dumbledore.

That was in book one, before Fudge thought that - Fudge didn't think that until book 5.

They weren't close, no, but they could have known each otehr well, been at family events together, loathed each other, ect. If it was James and Snape fighting in that case, even with everybody in trouble, I'd bet anything that James would get reckless.

Hermione was really powerful, she progressed faster than anybody else in the DA. She was second best in the year at DADA. She was powerful.

How would it know you ate it's young unless it saw you kill them (in which case it would kill you, too).

Book 7 Crabbe vs. Malfoy?

Directly monitoring crime and arresting criminals is not one of the duties of a governor. A governor usually has no training in armed combat, unlike a policeman.

Not even all of the smart ones believed Harry and Dumbledore. Only members of the Order of the Phoenix, and that's because they're all as loyal to Dumbledore as Hagrid was.

Fudge had been under the impression the whole time.

Sirius Black ran away from home at an early age. I doubt that he would have been invited to a family reunion. And I doubt that James would be reckless. He knew how dangerous Snape could be, and with everyone (including his own son) in danger, he wouldn't dare risk his own life simply to "toy" with an old rival.

She progressed fast due to her intelligence. Again, because she was intelligent, she was at the top of her DADA classes. Apparently, intelligence plays a major role in a character's magical strength.

It could smell the blood.


I think Malfoy would win. He seems to have better control of his powers. Crabbe seems to be stronger (being able to summon Fiendyfire), but he can't seem to be able to control his strength.


Kingsley vs. Lupin.

Originally posted by Council#13
A simple Killing Curse would be sufficient for Bellatrix. Madame Maxime may be good, but she isn't nearly at the level of Bellatrix.



Directly monitoring crime and arresting criminals is not one of the duties of a governor. A governor usually has no training in armed combat, unlike a policeman.

Not even all of the smart ones believed Harry and Dumbledore. Only members of the Order of the Phoenix, and that's because they're all as loyal to Dumbledore as Hagrid was.

Fudge had been under the impression the whole time.

Sirius Black ran away from home at an early age. I doubt that he would have been invited to a family reunion. And I doubt that James would be reckless. He knew how dangerous Snape could be, and with everyone (including his own son) in danger, he wouldn't dare risk his own life simply to "toy" with an old rival.

She progressed fast due to her intelligence. Again, because she was intelligent, she was at the top of her DADA classes. Apparently, intelligence plays a major role in a character's magical strength.

It could smell the blood.


I think Malfoy would win. He seems to have better control of his powers. Crabbe seems to be stronger (being able to summon Fiendyfire), but he can't seem to be able to control his strength.


Kingsley vs. Lupin.
Kingsley would win this, he's portrayed as one of the most powerful wizards in the book, and by book 7 he was able to fight his way out when he was trapped by a group of Death Eaters.

And btw, Sirius was being reckless when fighting with Bellatrix, there was a particular emphasis put on the fact that his year or so pent up in Grimmauld place had made him reckless. So when he finally got into a fight that he longed for he foolishly tried to toy with Bellatrix and payed for it.

Harry (book 7) vs Rowle

Originally posted by Dresta
And btw, Sirius was being reckless when fighting with Bellatrix, there was a particular emphasis put on the fact that his year or so pent up in Grimmauld place had made him reckless. So when he finally got into a fight that he longed for he foolishly tried to toy with Bellatrix and payed for it.

Harry (book 7) vs Rowle

Alright, I'll agree. But do you think he could have beaten Bellatrix even if he had been completely serious?

Hmm, I'd say Harry wins. He didn't seem to impressive during the first Hogwarts battle.


Flitwick vs. McGonagall.

I'd say Flitwick, together they beat off Snape, and later McGonagall fought Voldemort with others and lost, while Flitwick took out Dolohov, who is very strong and even took out Lupin. You could say that only the best would take on Voldemort, but maybe Flitwick tried to but got held up by Dolohov, while McGonagall's path to Voldemort was clear. And Kingsley took on Voldemort, and I wouldn't put him very far ahead of Lupin, who Flitwick is ahead of. Plus, Flitwick was once a dueling champion, McGonagall never got any awards.




Flitwick vs. Mrs. Weasley?

Originally posted by Dresta
In that fight Dumbledore had the Eldar Wand. And also Voldemort did know that the Auror's were coming , as Dumbledore said somehting like "You were foolish to come here tonight Tom, the Auror's are on their way".

Voldemort would definately win this fight.

Why did you quote that?











Flitwick vs. Mrs. Weasley?

Originally posted by Dresta
Seriously how stupid are you? Of course Snape wasn't regarded as being Voldemort's 'best lieutenant' as he had been working for Dumbledore, god think man.

Clearly someone need to be schooled in the art of English Literature. Now look at this quote real carefully:

"Voldemort's fury at the fall of his last, best lieutenant exploded with the force of a bomb!"

Given the context of the quote, where it's directly speaking in reference to Voldemort's fury, it's clear that the 'last, best lieutenant' was an indirect form of voicing Voldemort's thoughts on the matter.

Guess what? VOLDEMORT DIDN'T KNOW THAT SNAPE HAD BEEN WORKING WITH DUMBLEDORE AT THIS POINT! Ergo, I'm right, your attempt at a rebuttal fails, and you lose.

Originally posted by nmensfinest
Clearly someone need to be schooled in the art of English Literature. Now look at this quote real carefully:

"Voldemort's fury at the fall of his last, best lieutenant exploded with the force of a bomb!"

Given the context of the quote, where it's directly speaking in reference to Voldemort's fury, it's clear that the 'last, best lieutenant' was an indirect form of voicing Voldemort's thoughts on the matter.

Guess what? VOLDEMORT DIDN'T KNOW THAT SNAPE HAD BEEN WORKING WITH DUMBLEDORE AT THIS POINT! Ergo, I'm right, your attempt at a rebuttal fails, and you lose.

Dude, he was agreeing with you. You said Snape wasn't the best, he said Snape wasn't the best. Still, Coldy only calls Bella the best and last at the evry end when Snape is already dead, so he doesn't count. He didn't say "best ever" he just said "best" and even if he had meant best ever, of course he would consider her the best ever cause Snape was against Voldemort! Either way it doesn't mean that bellatrix is stronger than Snape.