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Who wins?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Toguro#Younger_Toguro

hmmm....i would love to say that colossus would win coz he's my favorite mutant and all..

but toguro is just to fast amd too tough. He can take a full spirit gun attack which busted about 1/3 of the arena and draged him miles away and still get up as if nothing happend.

Toguro

It wouldn't even take 100% to take down Piotr.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
It wouldn't even take 100% to take down Piotr.

QFT


Toguro's strength and power aside.. he's simply WAYYYY too fast for someone on Colossus' level.

Poor Petey. Pulverized.

Originally posted by Akuki
Who wins?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Toguro#Younger_Toguro

piotr loses

Just a cool vid of what an 80% Toguro can shrug off.

Ypz7XlpvPhI&NR=1

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Just a cool vid of what an 80% Toguro can shrug off.

Ypz7XlpvPhI&NR=1 Um it isn't like a crater sized attack is the worst Colossus has taken

Colossus wins.

Toguro has the speed advantage although Piotr is no slouch either and I would I say that Colossus is stronger than the youngest Toguro and far more durable.

Indeed. Weaker attacks have taken him down.



Yeah, Hiei could vaporize multiple, massive ock formations at this point just by powering up. He wasn't close to Toguro. Toguro's power melts people.

In fact, what sort of durability does Piotr have on his soul? In his full demon form, Toguro could just suck up Colossus' soul.

Toguro wouldn't let Piotr lay a hand on him. And Toguro took stronger attacks.

You gonna say a punch from Colossus ever did as much damage as that Spirit Gun? If you say yes, do show it.

Toguro absorbs his soul.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Indeed. Weaker attacks have taken him down.



Yeah, Hiei could vaporize multiple, massive ock formations at this point just by powering up. He wasn't close to Toguro. Toguro's power melts people.

In fact, what sort of durability does Piotr have on his soul? In his full demon form, Toguro could just suck up Colossus' soul.

Toguro wouldn't let Piotr lay a hand on him. And Toguro took stronger attacks.

You gonna say a punch from Colossus ever did as much damage as that Spirit Gun? If you say yes, do show it. Seeing as Colossus is immune to magic very good soul protection. Although Toguro never used soul absorption. so it is a moot point anyways

Let's see Colossus has taken shots from Cyclops and Havok both of whom have easily reproduced the effect of that Spirit Gun.

He has fallen from over a mile from the sky completely unhurt.

He has taken Repulsor blasts from Ironman who could easily exceed what Hiei did there.

The guy has stood in an active Volcano and broken Vibranium before.


All of these feats are greater or at the very least equal to what Toguro took and those aren't even Colossus' best showings.

No Colossus has never punched something and caused as great as collateral damage as the Spirit gun you wouldn't expect a punch to be able to do that even Toguro has to release his Demon Energy to cause wide spread damage like that.

But on the other hand Colossus' punches have been able to hurt people that Cyclops own blasts couldn't do so in terms of power I say Colossus could easily knock Toguro for a loop.

By the way Toguro wasn't that fast.

Come again? What does this have to do with magic?



Most of the demons in the stadium when Toguro went 100% disagree.



This is not about what he can take. It's about what he can dish out.



Impact crater would show how truly hard the fall was.

I'd wager the one punch an 80% Toguro gave the ground is bigger than the hole Colossus' mab when falling.



It depends on the armor, why he was attackign Colossus and so-forth. Variables. A lot of feats sound cooler than they actually are.



Heat temperature due to the composition of his skin will mean what in this match?



Then do tell what his best are.




Faster than Yusuke and Yusuke was faster than Hiei in Saint Beast Saga. Hiei back then could strike 16 times per second.

Yes, that's how these types of shows function. It's the DBZ Power Level thing.

This is a post from another person. I don't read manga but whatever. I'll make good use of it.

To understand exactly how fast Toguro is, you need to go back quite a distance. A good start is the Saint Beasts Arc.
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/207/yuuyuuhakushovol5c04pagve2.png
http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/1240/yuuyuuhakushovol5c04pagir2.png
http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/2989/yuuyuuhakushovol5c04pagth1.png
So basically, Saint Beasts Hiei is capable of cutting a guy 16 times before he can punch once. This same guy is capable of punching hundreds of times in a split second. Using even the lowest numbers possible, that means Saint Beasts Hiei is capable of cutting thousands of times per second.

Yusuke is later able to match a more powerful version of Hiei several volumes later in the manga (although he probably matches Saint Beasts Hiei earlier on):
http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/7331/yuuyuuhakushovol6c07pagxl1.png
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/329/yuuyuuhakushovol6c07pagfn4.png

Toguro fights evenly with a Yusuke that is even faster than the one at the beginning of the Tournament. Not to mention that Yusuke becomes far faster even during the fight with Toguro, and Toguro responds with increases in speed and power.
http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/2223/yuyuhakushovol12ch08pagbd2.png

0 effect on Colossus. He wins.

Colossus is resistant to magic, not immune.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Come again? What does this have to do with magic?



Most of the demons in the stadium when Toguro went 100% disagree.



This is not about what he can take. It's about what he can dish out.



Impact crater would show how truly hard the fall was.

I'd wager the one punch an 80% Toguro gave the ground is bigger than the hole Colossus' mab when falling.



It depends on the armor, why he was attackign Colossus and so-forth. Variables. A lot of feats sound cooler than they actually are.



Heat temperature due to the composition of his skin will mean what in this match?



Then do tell what his best are.




Faster than Yusuke and Yusuke was faster than Hiei in Saint Beast Saga. Hiei back then could strike 16 times per second.

Yes, that's how these types of shows function. It's the DBZ Power Level thing. Seeing as Colossus' punches are as good as Cyclop's attacks which were better than that Spirit Gun I think that he could hurt Toguro.

And by speed I mean that it wasn't like Toguro was can run around at that speed and I know what Episode you are talking about with the Blue Dragon. Plus Toguro never showed he could hit 16 times per second in fact the only person who has actually been quantified like that was Hiei.

Everyone else was far from hitting like that

And the magic immunity was showing he had a resistance to the supernatural which oddly enough Demon Energy is unless Yuske wasn't a supernatural detective

Originally posted by Newjak
Seeing as Colossus' punches are as good as Cyclop's attacks which were better than that Spirit Gun I think that he could hurt Toguro.

Uhm, speculation

Originally posted by llagrok
Uhm, speculation Not really Cyclops has created craters as big as the one Toguro made before and seeing as Colossus' punches have effected things that Cyclops beams couldn't it isn't a real speculation that Colossus can hit really really hard

Except that the power of those punches and the power of Cyke's optic blasts both vary immensely.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
---edit--- Not really if you read above.

I edited, sorry. Didn't see your post when I posted.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Except that the power of those punches and the power of Cyke's optic blasts both vary immensely. No the wide spread damage does differ like I said even Toguro needs to release his Demon energy to to make wide spread effects.

Colossus can hit as hard or harder than Cyke's beams though in terms of impact damage on the person seeing as Colossus has been able to hurt things Cyke's could not.

Originally posted by Estacado
Toguro absorbs his soul.

Originally posted by Estacado
Always taking the easy way out even though Colossus has already resisted Demon power before

Originally posted by Newjak
Always taking the easy way out even though Colossus has already resisted Demon power before
He has no magic shield to protect himself from soul absorption........

Originally posted by Estacado
He has no magic shield to protect himself from soul absorption........ He has an entire steel skin shield of magic protection 313

Originally posted by Newjak
Seeing as Colossus is immune to magic very good soul protection. Although Toguro never used soul absorption. so it is a moot point anyways

Let's see Colossus has taken shots from Cyclops and Havok both of whom have easily reproduced the effect of that Spirit Gun.

He has fallen from over a mile from the sky completely unhurt.

He has taken Repulsor blasts from Ironman who could easily exceed what Hiei did there.

The guy has stood in an active Volcano and broken Vibranium before.


All of these feats are greater or at the very least equal to what Toguro took and those aren't even Colossus' best showings.

No Colossus has never punched something and caused as great as collateral damage as the Spirit gun you wouldn't expect a punch to be able to do that even Toguro has to release his Demon Energy to cause wide spread damage like that.

But on the other hand Colossus' punches have been able to hurt people that Cyclops own blasts couldn't do so in terms of power I say Colossus could easily knock Toguro for a loop.

By the way Toguro wasn't that fast.

Are you JOKING?


Hiei was multitudes faster than anything you'd see Colossus pull off at the beginning of the series. By the time the dark tournement rolled around Yuske was at his enhnaced level of speed and Teguro was keeping up with him..

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Faster than Yusuke and Yusuke was faster than Hiei in Saint Beast Saga. Hiei back then could strike 16 times per second.

Yes, that's how these types of shows function. It's the DBZ Power Level thing.
Exactly.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
This is a post from another person. I don't read manga but whatever. I'll make good use of it.

To understand exactly how fast Toguro is, you need to go back quite a distance. A good start is the Saint Beasts Arc.
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/207/yuuyuuhakushovol5c04pagve2.png
http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/1240/yuuyuuhakushovol5c04pagir2.png
http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/2989/yuuyuuhakushovol5c04pagth1.png
So basically, Saint Beasts Hiei is capable of cutting a guy 16 times before he can punch once. This same guy is capable of punching hundreds of times in a split second. Using even the lowest numbers possible, that means Saint Beasts Hiei is capable of cutting thousands of times per second.

Yusuke is later able to match a more powerful version of Hiei several volumes later in the manga (although he probably matches Saint Beasts Hiei earlier on):
http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/7331/yuuyuuhakushovol6c07pagxl1.png
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/329/yuuyuuhakushovol6c07pagfn4.png

Toguro fights evenly with a Yusuke that is even faster than the one at the beginning of the Tournament. Not to mention that Yusuke becomes far faster even during the fight with Toguro, and Toguro responds with increases in speed and power.
http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/2223/yuyuhakushovol12ch08pagbd2.png
clapping

Originally posted by jinzin
Are you JOKING?


Hiei was multitudes faster than anything you'd see Colossus pull off at the beginning of the series. By the time the dark tournement rolled around Yuske was at his enhnaced level of speed and Teguro was keeping up with him.. Ohhh they could hit fast yeah Bruce Lee could hit someone multiple times in a second Wolverine can hit people multiple times in a second but their running speed and actual speed have never been that impressive compared to most low meta comic book characters

Originally posted by Newjak
Seeing as Colossus' punches are as good as Cyclop's attacks which were better than that Spirit Gun I think that he could hurt Toguro.
His punches aren't near as destructive though.
When's the last time his punch leveled a forest?
And better than the Spirit Gun? I don't think so... The SG that Yusuke hit Teguro with mid-fight practically leveled half the island they were fighting on, and it didn't even explode ON the island releasing the full capability of it's destructive power, on top of that, that was before Yusuke went up to full power... or Teguro did or that matter.

Originally posted by Newjak
And by speed I mean that it wasn't like Toguro was can run around at that speed and I know what Episode you are talking about with the Blue Dragon. Plus Toguro never showed he could hit 16 times per second in fact the only person who has actually been quantified like that was Hiei.


I think... you're missing the point here...

-It's clear that Hiei can.
-It's clear that Hiei was stronger and faster by quite a large amount by the time that the dark tournement came around.
-We see that Yusuke can clearly keep up with Hiei.
-Thus if Teguro wasn't that fast Yusuke would completely own him in h2h through sheer speed alone; even if Yusuke wasn't able to hurt Teguro he never would have had to worry about being hit..
-However, clearly that wasn't the case... why? Because Teguro WAS that fast..

Originally posted by Newjak
And the magic immunity was showing he had a resistance to the supernatural which oddly enough Demon Energy is unless Yuske wasn't a supernatural detective

Didn't seem to help him to much with Sym or Belasco.

Originally posted by Newjak
Ohhh they could hit fast yeah Bruce Lee could hit someone multiple times in a second Wolverine can hit people multiple times in a second but their running speed and actual speed have never been that impressive compared to most low meta comic book characters



I don't even know how to respond to this... Moving so fast you look like you're teleporting all around an opponent is not enough sheer speed to convince you?

When's the last time regular metas have pulled that sort of thing off?
When's the last time Colossus has?

ahh I see wha you meant about Colossus' punching power vs. Cyk's so nvm that...

Originally posted by jinzin



I think... you're missing the point here...

-It's clear that Hiei can.
-It's clear that Hiei was stronger and faster by quite a large amount by the time that the dark tournement came around.
-We see that Yusuke can clearly keep up with Hiei.
-Thus if Teguro wasn't that fast Yusuke would completely own him in h2h through sheer speed alone; even if Yusuke wasn't able to hurt Teguro he never would have had to worry about being hit..
-However, clearly that wasn't the case... why? Because Teguro WAS that fast..



Didn't seem to help him to much with Sym or Belasco. Except Toguro never actually showed any of that speed he simply used his brute strength the only time he really used any speed was when he torn down that building.

By the way when Hiei was doing that he was using his energy to do so and doesn't normally traverse at that speed niether does Yusuke for that matter.

And actually it did help him with Sym even mentions that his protection against Magic is helping him

Originally posted by Newjak
Not really Cyclops has created craters as big as the one Toguro made before and seeing as Colossus' punches have effected things that Cyclops beams couldn't it isn't a real speculation that Colossus can hit really really hard

Speculation.

Unless you have some way of measuring how much power Cyclops applied and how much force Colossus applied.

Didn't Cyclops rip a small planet in half once?

Originally posted by Newjak
Except Toguro never actually showed any of that speed he simply used his brute strength the only time he really used any speed was when he torn down that building.

I don't think it had to be said to be clearly displayed...

Again how are you going to try and rationalize his fight with Yusuke then?

Are you under the impression that Yusuke just moves far faster while he's messing around with Hiei than he would in a life or death fight?


Originally posted by Newjak
By the way when Hiei was doing that he was using his energy to do so and doesn't normally traverse at that speed niether does Yusuke for that matter.

Normally? No..

During fights? Yes...


It's like Shin said about the whole DBZ style of power levels...
These character's always use energy when they fight, it stands to reason that they would be doing so in a fight here so I fail to see what point you're trying to make here.

Originally posted by Newjak
And actually it did help him with Sym even mentions that his protection against Magic is helping him It certainly didn't seem that way, what with him getting his tale kicked an' all.


And then we've got Kierrok, who also rocked Colossus to the point that he knocked him unconcious.

Here's my thing.

Teguro's easily strong enough to compete with Colossus - We see this when he carries the new ring into the Dark Tournament, a rock that size would on average easily weigh WELL OVER 100 tons lest it was made from Pummice which I think we can all agree that it wasn't...
And Teguro wasn't even powered up there... he was at what 30%? 40 maybe?

Teguro's easily far superior to Colossus in sheer speed - Aside from the comparisons of saga vs saga, you can clearly see an incredible display of speed in the last pic that SHin posted... It's rather adsurd to think that he won't have an immense speed advantage here unless you're trying to ignore logical steps for the sake of bias.

Teguro's argueably more skilled than Colossus in h2h combat - being an age-old demon who trained alongside the likes of Gen-Kai for years in martial arts... I would think he would have a considerable experience advantage over Colossus as well.

Teguro has the durability to take shots from Colossus - The man shrugged off an incredibly powerful Spirit Gun attack that leveled half an island and arena... A few class 100 shots should be nothing for this guy...

What else is there to say that Colossus would win this fight past some exaggeration to a magical defense he doesn't have to protect his soul?
I think people are coming into this thread thinking "Colossus is metal and the other guy isn't so Colossus wins" when nothing could be further from the truth.

Originally posted by Estacado
Didn't Cyclops rip a small planet in half once?

When'd he do that?

Originally posted by jinzin
When'd he do that?
srug
I don't know I just remembered someone saying it.....

Originally posted by jinzin
I don't think it had to be said to be clearly displayed...

Again how are you going to try and rationalize his fight with Yusuke then?

Are you under the impression that Yusuke just moves far faster while he's messing around with Hiei than he would in a life or death fight?




Normally? No..

During fights? Yes...


It's like Shin said about the whole DBZ style of power levels...
These character's always use energy when they fight, it stands to reason that they would be doing so in a fight here so I fail to see what point you're trying to make here.

It certainly didn't seem that way, what with him getting his tale kicked an' all.


And then we've got Kierrok, who also rocked Colossus to the point that he knocked him unconcious.

Here's my thing.

Teguro's easily strong enough to compete with Colossus - We see this when he carries the new ring into the Dark Tournament, a rock that size would on average easily weigh WELL OVER 100 tons lest it was made from Pummice which I think we can all agree that it wasn't...
And Teguro wasn't even powered up there... he was at what 30%? 40 maybe?

Teguro's easily far superior to Colossus in sheer speed - Aside from the comparisons of saga vs saga, you can clearly see an incredible display of speed in the last pic that SHin posted... It's rather adsurd to think that he won't have an immense speed advantage here unless you're trying to ignore logical steps for the sake of bias.

Teguro's argueably more skilled than Colossus in h2h combat - being an age-old demon who trained alongside the likes of Gen-Kai for years in martial arts... I would think he would have a considerable experience advantage over Colossus as well.

Teguro has the durability to take shots from Colossus - The man shrugged off an incredibly powerful Spirit Gun attack that leveled half an island and arena... A few class 100 shots should be nothing for this guy...

What else is there to say that Colossus would win this fight past some exaggeration to a magical defense he doesn't have to protect his soul?
I think people are coming into this thread thinking "Colossus is metal and the other guy isn't so Colossus wins" when nothing could be further from the truth. So the fact that Wolverine can hit Northstar means he can now move at 99.9 % speed of light. Face it you have no real speed feats for Teguro just him fighting Yuske where Yuske was using his energies for bigger attacks then boosting his speed.

So I'm under the impression you can not actually prove Teguro's speed above whee a normal low-meta beings is unless you would say Teguro is faster than Wolverine which I haven't seen.

Except it did when Colossus upgraded handed Sym his butt for an entire fight.


And yes Teguro has the strength to compete but then again Colossus has Teguro in spades on durability so it doesn't matter what he throws out he can take it for entire fight and the problem with their energy is the more they use the weaker they become unlike Colossus who always is that durable.

Originally posted by jinzin


It certainly didn't seem that way, what with him getting his tale kicked an' all. You must be talking about their first fight. Obviously you're not referring to the last two fights they had.
Originally posted by jinzin


And then we've got Kierrok, who also rocked Colossus to the point that he knocked him unconcious.

Where was this shown?

Originally posted by snoopdogg
You must be talking about their first fight. Obviously you're not referring to the last two fights they had.
Where was this shown?

I was under the impression tat Sym's had a sever powerdown since then, what with being beaten by Cable in hand to hand and killed with a stick an' all.

- it was shown in uncanny 106 (I think), and later reiterated in X-men Unlimited.

Originally posted by jinzin
I was under the impression tat Sym's had a sever powerdown since then, what with being beaten by Cable in hand to hand and killed with a stick an' all.

- it was shown in uncanny 106 (I think), and later reiterated in X-men Unlimited. At the time Colossus was beating down Sym, Sym had just beaten Magik in Limbo for control.

He had a large power-up in that fight.

Originally posted by jinzin
I was under the impression tat Sym's had a sever powerdown since then, what with being beaten by Cable in hand to hand and killed with a stick an' all.

- it was shown in uncanny 106 (I think), and later reiterated in X-men Unlimited. Actually S'ym was growing stronger as he mentioned before they started fo fight.

As far as Kierrok Colossus punched him in the gut then in the face which sent Kierrok flying, then Kierrok gets up and throws a large slab of metal at Colossus then I think Nightcrawler started his assault. Basically there was no magic involved in the fight that I recall.

And actually S'ym had Cable on the ropes before he was distracted by some chic or something.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Actually S'ym was growing stronger as he mentioned before they started fo fight.

As far as Kierrok Colossus punched him in the gut then in the face which sent Kierrok flying, then Kierrok gets up and throws a large slab of metal at Colossus then I think Nightcrawler started his assault. Basically there was no magic involved in the fight that I recall.

And actually S'ym had Cable on the ropes before he was distracted by some chic or something.

The Kierrok reference wasn't really to illustrate magic so much as demons.

And C'mon, Sym got beaten by Excalibur, the fact that he had trouble putting Cable down with punches, was effected by Cables own fists and got killed by a broken stick... I mean you're seriously going to tell me that's in the same league as a guy that was beating both Colossus and Wolverine..

Originally posted by Newjak
So the fact that Wolverine can hit Northstar means he can now move at 99.9 % speed of light.

That's a TRULY poor example to be using.
The only times that Wolverine's tagged Northstar have been when Northstar's tried to hold onto Logan for a ride (non-canon), or when he surprised him... the only other chances he has of touching Northstar in a fight are through sheer luck, or by leading him while he's not traveling near lightspeed.

"The Fact" is that the Teguro example differs GREATLY from yours since Teguro was not only able to consistently keep pace with Yusuke but he had Yusuke completely baffled by his own speed at the end of the fight.

If there were examples where Wolverine was outpacing Northstar before Northstar could even launch an attack, then you would have a point... but if he did, it would make him a character who uses super speed...
Like...Teguro...


Originally posted by Newjak
Face it you have no real speed feats for Teguro just him fighting Yuske where Yuske was using his energies for bigger attacks then boosting his speed.
This argument doesn't work either... You set up this fallacy that Yusuke can only focus on his power or his speed, but focusing on one while be at the cost of the other.. that's not how those powerups work though. They're relative to everything; speed, power, durability...

And again, Teguro's feats eminate both from his ability to keep up with Yusuke as well as baffle him using his speed... AND from a saga vs saga comparison and analysis.

And again I draw on the question:
Why would Yusuke use an incredible amount of speed while just messing around with Heie but not use it against an opponent in a life or death battle?

It makes no sense.. Especially when you consider that Teguro was the bigger, stronger, more powerful opponent.. you don't fight someone like that head on unless you're out of options... it goes against some of the most basic fighting principles as well as even MORE basic principles of logic...

Why are you under the impression Yusuke WASN'T using his speed?



Originally posted by Newjak
So I'm under the impression you can not actually prove Teguro's speed above whee a normal low-meta beings is unless you would say Teguro is faster than Wolverine which I haven't seen.


Again the fact that you think Teguro is at a level of speed that slow compared to Yusuke is simply absurd.. if that was the case, there wouldn't have even been a fight between the two so much as a farce.

I would think it's obvious that Teguro's faster than Logan...

Did you even read Shins post?

Originally posted by Newjak
Except it did when Colossus upgraded handed Sym his butt for an entire fight.

As I said to snoop.


Originally posted by Newjak
And yes Teguro has the strength to compete but then again Colossus has Teguro in spades on durability so it doesn't matter what he throws out he can take it for entire fight and the problem with their energy is the more they use the weaker they become unlike Colossus who always is that durable.
I don't see where you're getting this from...
Teguro shrugged off a forest incinerating Island quaking/leveling blast like it was a rough gust of air... he wasn't even near full power...

"Face it" the only way you can give Colossus a win here is by giving Colossus the ben of the doubt in matters he hasn't proven while stripping Teguro of the feats he DOES have...


Colossus would lose this fight.. and lose it badly..

Originally posted by Newjak
So I'm under the impression you can not actually prove Teguro's speed above whee a normal low-meta beings is unless you would say Teguro is faster than Wolverine which I haven't seen.

He ran through every support pillar of a parking lot in seconds. He had to turn several time and must have been slowed down by going though each pillar.

In combat he was close to Yuske during the DarkTournament or at the very least didn't seem to have much of a problem with someone that fast.

Originally posted by jinzin
The Kierrok reference wasn't really to illustrate magic so much as demons.

And C'mon, Sym got beaten by Excalibur, the fact that he had trouble putting Cable down with punches, was effected by Cables own fists and got killed by a broken stick... I mean you're seriously going to tell me that's in the same league as a guy that was beating both Colossus and Wolverine..

Except Sym is a demon and Colossus beat him down badly. No but beating Magik in Limbo where she is almost God is very impressive which is what Sym did


Originally posted by jinzin
That's a TRULY poor example to be using.
The only times that Wolverine's tagged Northstar have been when Northstar's tried to hold onto Logan for a ride (non-canon), or when he surprised him... the only other chances he has of touching Northstar in a fight are through sheer luck, or by leading him while he's not traveling near lightspeed.

"The Fact" is that the Teguro example differs GREATLY from yours since Teguro was not only able to consistently keep pace with Yusuke but he had Yusuke completely baffled by his own speed at the end of the fight.

If there were examples where Wolverine was outpacing Northstar before Northstar could even launch an attack, then you would have a point... but if he did, it would make him a character who uses super speed...
Like...Teguro...



This argument doesn't work either... You set up this fallacy that Yusuke can only focus on his power or his speed, but focusing on one while be at the cost of the other.. that's not how those powerups work though. They're relative to everything; speed, power, durability...

And again, Teguro's feats eminate both from his ability to keep up with Yusuke as well as baffle him using his speed... AND from a saga vs saga comparison and analysis.

And again I draw on the question:
Why would Yusuke use an incredible amount of speed while just messing around with Heie but not use it against an opponent in a life or death battle?

It makes no sense.. Especially when you consider that Teguro was the bigger, stronger, more powerful opponent.. you don't fight someone like that head on unless you're out of options... it goes against some of the most basic fighting principles as well as even MORE basic principles of logic...

Why are you under the impression Yusuke WASN'T using his speed?






Again the fact that you think Teguro is at a level of speed that slow compared to Yusuke is simply absurd.. if that was the case, there wouldn't have even been a fight between the two so much as a farce.

I would think it's obvious that Teguro's faster than Logan...

Did you even read Shins post?



As I said to snoop.



I don't see where you're getting this from...
Teguro shrugged off a forest incinerating Island quaking/leveling blast like it was a rough gust of air... he wasn't even near full power...

"Face it" the only way you can give Colossus a win here is by giving Colossus the ben of the doubt in matters he hasn't proven while stripping Teguro of the feats he DOES have...


Colossus would lose this fight.. and lose it badly.. Except to use more power in one aspect like say charging up a super powered Spirit Gun will obviously prevent Yuske from using his full on speed which by the way isn't that good.

You like talking about speed feats you do remember he couldn't chase down a pick-up truck even on a bicycle and that was after the Dark Tournament Saga and that was trying to save his best friends life so you know he was going as fast as he could.

Saga to saga got to love it

So your entire post has become crap

By the way Colossus has taken punches from Gladiator for an extended period of time so I think Teguro will be like a kitten.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
He ran through every support pillar of a parking lot in seconds. He had to turn several time and must have been slowed down by going though each pillar.

In combat he was close to Yuske during the DarkTournament or at the very least didn't seem to have much of a problem with someone that fast. You mean the same thing Rouge could have done as well

Originally posted by Newjak
You mean the same thing Rouge could have done as well

The parking lot? Sure.

Not having a problem with Uuske's speed? No.

Originally posted by Newjak
Except Sym is a demon and Colossus beat him down badly. No but beating Magik in Limbo where she is almost God is very impressive which is what Sym did
granted.


Originally posted by Newjak
Except to use more power in one aspect like say charging up a super powered Spirit Gun will obviously prevent Yuske from using his full on speed which by the way isn't that good.

I can't believe you're actually saying that Yusuke's speed isn't that good... Yusuke.. the guy who routinely matches up with Heie..

And, obviously Yusuke will be more planted while shotting off his SG but his speed wasn't hindered in the h2h combat, especially after dispatching the spirit cuffs.. after Teguro went 100% it didn't matter though.


Originally posted by Newjak
You like talking about speed feats you do remember he couldn't chase down a pick-up truck even on a bicycle and that was after the Dark Tournament Saga and that was trying to save his best friends life so you know he was going as fast as he could.

Fighting speed vs. travel speed?

Originally posted by Newjak
Saga to saga got to love it

So your entire post has become crap
This coming from the guy who's ignoring evidence and making wild speculations?

And we've been so civil thus far.


Originally posted by Newjak
By the way Colossus has taken punches from Gladiator for an extended period of time so I think Teguro will be like a kitten. He also got handled like a rag doll by the likes of Kierrok, a calm Juggernaught, Moses Magnum, and Sasquatch... You'll have to forgive me if I disagree.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The parking lot? Sure.

Not having a problem with Uuske's speed? No. You mean the same superpowered being that could barely catch a pickup truck probably doing at best 100 mph on a bike aiding him.

Yeah that screams speed Colossus hasn't dealt with before

Originally posted by jinzin
granted.




I can't believe you're actually saying that Yusuke's speed isn't that good... Yusuke.. the guy who routinely matches up with Heie..

And, obviously Yusuke will be more planted while shotting off his SG but his speed wasn't hindered in the h2h combat, especially after dispatching the spirit cuffs.. after Teguro went 100% it didn't matter though.




Fighting speed vs. travel speed?


This coming from the guy who's ignoring evidence and making wild speculations?

And we've been so civil thus far.


He also got handled like a rag doll by the likes of Kierrok, a calm Juggernaught, Moses Magnum, and Sasquatch... You'll have to forgive me if I disagree. Compared to how you are describing his speed yes it isn't that good your best evidence is the Blue Dragon where Hiei cut the guy 16 times before he can punch Hiei.

So I'm sorry but compared to everyother speed feat you can muster for Yusuke and Teguro is at best Wolverine Level You'll have to forgive me if I disagree Teguro is too fast for colossus.


I'm not the one making speculations fact teguro isn't faster than Wolverine and there is no evidence to suggest such.

Colossus can fight Wolverine just fine. Colossus has taken everything Teguro has shown to be able to dish out before in spades. Colossus is also a very good fighter and isn't a slouch in speed either. They may be roughly equal in strength but Colossus' durability feats speak for themselves.


By the way he never got handled by Sas and a Calm Juggernaut would still tear Teguro limb from limb

Originally posted by Newjak
You mean the same superpowered being that could barely catch a pickup truck probably doing at best 100 mph on a bike aiding him.

Yeah that screams speed Colossus hasn't dealt with before

No I mean the superpowered being who punches fast enough that the shockwave can knock a adult man several feet back

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
No I mean the superpowered being who punches fast enough that the shockwave can knock a adult man several feet back Or you know it could be the fact the guy can you know hit really hard

Originally posted by Newjak
Or you know it could be the fact the guy can you know hit really hard

It could be. But he charged the guy and he didn't touch him. That speaks to speed not strength

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It could be. But he charged the guy and he didn't touch him. That speaks to speed not strength It speaks of force not speed and force would coronate with both speed and strength

Originally posted by Newjak
It speaks of force not speed and force would coronate with both speed and strength

B-b-but Force = Mass x Acceleration. That wouldn't make any sense.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
B-b-but Force = Mass x Acceleration. That wouldn't make any sense. Yes and Yusuke has mass and acceleration isn't just speed it the bodies ability to overcome its own interia meaning the stronger you are the easier it is for you.

and i'd like to add, if you can run 40 MPH or somesuch, then riding a bike would be a detriment to your speed.

a bike can only go SO fast.

Although seriously where do find Yusuke outrunning cars or just generally being way to fast for normal humans to follow. In everyone of his fights he can be seen by anyone watching the fight.


He can barely catch up to a truck on a bicycle. I'm not saying he isn't fast but the speed you guys are implying doesn't exist. Yusuke is at best Spider-man level speed and reaction but more than likely around Wolverine level Teguro only showed his speed when he demolished the building.

Keeping up with Yusuke does not equate to speeds Colossus hasn't seen or dealt with before in fact I would say Teguro is slower than Yusuke notice in their fight pretty much every blow Yusuke did landed.

Originally posted by Newjak
Compared to how you are describing his speed yes it isn't that good your best evidence is the Blue Dragon where Hiei cut the guy 16 times before he can punch Hiei.

Why not?

The saint beats speed is recorded in real time, if Heie can jack him with 16 cuts before he finishes one thrust punch that's some indicator of incredibly impressive speed...

you call my argument crap but so far you've done nothing to convince me that I'm wrong save half a dozen "nu-uh" arguments.


Originally posted by Newjak
So I'm sorry but compared to everyother speed feat you can muster for Yusuke and Teguro is at best Wolverine Level You'll have to forgive me if I disagree Teguro is too fast for colossus.
That's absolutely absurd..

don't tell me you come from the same camp that thinks DBZ characters are on the same level of reflexive speed as Gambit.



Originally posted by Newjak
I'm not the one making speculations fact teguro isn't faster than Wolverine and there is no evidence to suggest such.

With the exception of character's consistent ability to move so fast during fights they appear as if they're teleporting...


Originally posted by Newjak
Colossus can fight Wolverine just fine. Colossus has taken everything Teguro has shown to be able to dish out before in spades. Colossus is also a very good fighter and isn't a slouch in speed either. They may be roughly equal in strength but Colossus' durability feats speak for themselves.


By the way he never got handled by Sas and a Calm Juggernaut would still tear Teguro limb from limb I'm not even discussing Wolverine vs. Colossus...
NO... HE... HASN'T

He hasn't shown he can take the soul sucking.
and what's worse is that his feats against the closest thing to characters from Hakusho are BAD ONES... Look at his fights with Iron Fist.. in one he got humiliated.. the other he flat out lost... there's a pretty clear indication that he doesn't fair to well with chi based attacks...
In spades? Hardly...

the best feats he has are against something comparible to Teguro's strength, but combine Teguro's speed with that and things look grim for C.

Oh yeah he did, he managed to Judo toss Sas afer getting a pretty sound beating, but he WAS getting handled... and Juggernaught can't even catch Shatterstar.. once again, Teguro's speed plays your arguments false.

Originally posted by Newjak
Although seriously where do find Yusuke outrunning cars or just generally being way to fast for normal humans to follow. In everyone of his fights he can be seen by anyone watching the fight.

And most of those people watching are SUPERHUMANS...

even if they're normal humans your totally discarding the fact that it's blatent PIS... Humans watched the Buu fight at the end of DBZ in spite of the fact that Saiybamen were too fast for Gohan to keep track of at the beginning of the series.. Buu must therefore be slower than Saiybamen...

It's absurd...


Originally posted by Newjak
He can barely catch up to a truck on a bicycle. I'm not saying he isn't fast but the speed you guys are implying doesn't exist. Yusuke is at best Spider-man level speed and reaction but more than likely around Wolverine level Teguro only showed his speed when he demolished the building.

Keeping up with Yusuke does not equate to speeds Colossus hasn't seen or dealt with before in fact I would say Teguro is slower than Yusuke notice in their fight pretty much every blow Yusuke did landed. Up till he reached 100% but he was still keeping up.. after 100% he was too fast for Yusuke to keep pace with...

He's far too fast for Colossus and comparing him with the likes of Street levels based soley on blatent PIS is laughable.

Tekkeman blade has had trouble catching starfighters in spite of him reaching excape velocity in 4 seconds and ripping through entire armadas no contest.

Guyver couldn't catch a jeep weighed down by 3 hulking monsters in spite of the fact that Guyver runs at a pace far exceeding what a car can produce.

People SAW the BUU FIGHT as it happened...



These are ridiculous story driven examples of PIS and shame on you for pretending that they take precedence over real feats.

Originally posted by jinzin
Why not?

The saint beats speed is recorded in real time, if Heie can jack him with 16 cuts before he finishes one thrust punch that's some indicator of incredibly impressive speed...

you call my argument crap but so far you've done nothing to convince me that I'm wrong save half a dozen "nu-uh" arguments.



That's absolutely absurd..

don't tell me you come from the same camp that thinks DBZ characters are on the same level of reflexive speed as Gambit.





With the exception of character's consistent ability to move so fast during fights they appear as if they're teleporting...


I'm not even discussing Wolverine vs. Colossus...
NO... HE... HASN'T

He hasn't shown he can take the soul sucking.
and what's worse is that his feats against the closest thing to characters from Hakusho are BAD ONES... Look at his fights with Iron Fist.. in one he got humiliated.. the other he flat out lost... there's a pretty clear indication that he doesn't fair to well with chi based attacks...
In spades? Hardly...

the best feats he has are against something comparible to Teguro's strength, but combine Teguro's speed with that and things look grim for C.

Oh yeah he did, he managed to Judo toss Sas afer getting a pretty sound beating, but he WAS getting handled... and Juggernaught can't even catch Shatterstar.. once again, Teguro's speed plays your arguments false. It is a good feat but not something that automatically says yep he definitely is faster than anything Colossu can compare. Spider-man and Wolverine have all done similar things except their feats generally go about with multiple people not just one.

And once again that is Hiei I would love for you to actually showcase some feats for Teguro.

And YES HE HAS

Go ahead and name Teguro's best damage feats and I can feats that out Colossus above it.

You can name some low feats all you want but I can name plenty of feats to put him past it anything Teguro can dish out.

And he took Sas's best hits nad wasn't beaten and let's be honest Teguro has no actual speed feats in his match he never even really dodges Yusuke.

By the way did you just say Teguro could beat Juggernaut if you did imply that then you have just lost points. And Juggerbaut has caught Spiderman before so the Shatterstar point is moot.

Originally posted by jinzin
And most of those people watching are SUPERHUMANS...

even if they're normal humans your totally discarding the fact that it's blatent PIS... Humans watched the Buu fight at the end of DBZ in spite of the fact that Saiybamen were too fast for Gohan to keep track of at the beginning of the series.. Buu must therefore be slower than Saiybamen...

It's absurd...


Up till he reached 100% but he was still keeping up.. after 100% he was too fast for Yusuke to keep pace with...

He's far too fast for Colossus and comparing him with the likes of Street levels based soley on blatent PIS is laughable.

Tekkeman blade has had trouble catching starfighters in spite of him reaching excape velocity in 4 seconds and ripping through entire armadas no contest.

Guyver couldn't catch a jeep weighed down by 3 hulking monsters in spite of the fact that Guyver runs at a pace far exceeding what a car can produce.

People SAW the BUU FIGHT as it happened...



These are ridiculous story driven examples of PIS and shame on you for pretending that they take precedence over real feats. So its PIS when you want it to be is what you are saying.

Never in the series were the characters blatantly higher than most Low-Meta Beings in speed. Everyone on of their feats have been reproduced by Spider-man or Wolverine before in terms of speed.

It isn't PIS just the fact that the only time they actually appear to be fast is when they are fighting each other where they are drawn to look fast but when they get compared to anything quantitative they fall fast. Just look at the Truck.

Anime? Mmmm.

Originally posted by Blur
Anime? Mmmm. Can't all animes guys like walk and water and run acrosss tree tops and stuff?

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Can't all animes guys like walk and water and run acrosss tree tops and stuff? Not these Anime Guys

Teguro wouls sink like a rock trying to do these things

Originally posted by Newjak
Although seriously where do find Yusuke outrunning cars or just generally being way to fast for normal humans to follow. In everyone of his fights he can be seen by anyone watching the fight.

He did outrun a truck. In fact he did it while running through a forest.

He did fight too fast for a normal person to see many many times. They even made a point of it just before the DT. In their first adventure Heie and Kurama moved faster than Yuske or the sword dude could see. By the DT they were all classified as being much more powerful (that is within the shows world as classified by extremely powerful extremely experienced characters)

Originally posted by Newjak
He can barely catch up to a truck on a bicycle. I'm not saying he isn't fast but the speed you guys are implying doesn't exist. Yusuke is at best Spider-man level speed and reaction but more than likely around Wolverine level

Sniper shot dice at them with enough speed to crack a guy's skull and Yuske still managed to dodge. Sniper brought a room's worth of cutlery and latter dozens of leaves to life and Yuske kept dodging even though he'd been chased all day.

They guy is fast. Really. Freaking. Fast.

Originally posted by Newjak
Teguro only showed his speed when he demolished the building.

Or when he actually managed to have a fight with Yusuke.

Strength: About even.

Speed: Toguro by a f*ckin longshot. The guy was fast enough to fight Yusuke, who was much faster than Hiei, who could slach 16 times before another superpowered individual could punch. Also, Yusuke is too fast to go a good speed with a bike, bikes can only do so much as the dude at the top of the page said.

Durability: Bout equal, Toguro easily shrugged off a near island busting attack, and wasn't even at 100%. Also, I think you all forgot one other thing about Toguro, his Healing Factor.

Stamina: I say Toguro, after a long fight with Yusuke, he never got tired from what I remember.

Powers: Toguro has special powers, Collossus does not, pwnt. Toguro has those finger bullets, can kill people with his aura, and eats souls.

H2H skill: Toguro since being a kid was trained in martial arts, and has kept on training, and is now like 70-80 years old.

Experience: Toguro.

Toguro punks Piotr.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
He did outrun a truck. In fact he did it while running through a forest.

He did fight too fast for a normal person to see many many times. They even made a point of it just before the DT. In their first adventure Heie and Kurama moved faster than Yuske or the sword dude could see. By the DT they were all classified as being much more powerful (that is within the shows world as classified by extremely powerful extremely experienced characters)



Sniper shot dice at them with enough speed to crack a guy's skull and Yuske still managed to dodge. Sniper brought a room's worth of cutlery and latter dozens of leaves to life and Yuske kept dodging even though he'd been chased all day.

They guy is fast. Really. Freaking. Fast.



Or when he actually managed to have a fight with Yusuke. Oh yeah the one that obviously was going over what 50 MPH at best because as we all know that is so fast for acomicbook character

All things Spiderman, Wolverine, and even Captain America have done except they do it more often with greater ease and with more people.

I think that is where you guys are getting confused seriously I'm not saying they aren't fast but by comicbook standards they really aren't especially when compared to other people Colossus has fought.

The guy is fast but Colossus isn't a slouch either for someone of that strength.


Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Strength: About even.

Speed: Toguro by a f*ckin longshot. The guy was fast enough to fight Yusuke, who was much faster than Hiei, who could slach 16 times before another superpowered individual could punch. Also, Yusuke is too fast to go a good speed with a bike, bikes can only do so much as the dude at the top of the page said.

Durability: Bout equal, Toguro easily shrugged off a near island busting attack, and wasn't even at 100%. Also, I think you all forgot one other thing about Toguro, his Healing Factor.

Stamina: I say Toguro, after a long fight with Yusuke, he never got tired from what I remember.

Powers: Toguro has special powers, Collossus does not, pwnt. Toguro has those finger bullets, can kill people with his aura, and eats souls.

H2H skill: Toguro since being a kid was trained in martial arts, and has kept on training, and is now like 70-80 years old.

Experience: Toguro.

Toguro punks Piotr.
Strength: Equal or Colossus because Colossus actually has good strength feats Teguro has great energy feats though.

Speed: Yes Teguro is faster but it isn't like Colossus can not keep up with him he is pretty fast and agile himself.

Durability: Colossus in spades. He has much better feats against much stronger people. Not to mention Teguro's near island destroying blast are things Havok and Cyclops can do.

Stamina: Colossus the guy doesn't need to eat or breath or sleep in armored form.

Powers: Obviously Teguro because he does have energy output but it isn't anything Colossus hasn't seen before and seeing as Colossus pretty much resisted Sym when he was basically a Demonic God I doubt Soul Absorption is going to work.

H2H: Teguro although once again Colossus isn't a slouch.

Experience: in terms of years Teguro, in terms of actual fighting and experience Colossus. Colossus has seen more in his lifetime than Teguro would see in ten of his.

Overall Teguro's advantages become moot when considering Colossus can take everything Teguro could ever hope to while Teguro does actually have a lower durability considering Havok level blasts could take hurt him and cause him to scream in pain.

Originally posted by Newjak
Strength: Equal or Colossus because Colossus actually has good strength feats Teguro has great energy feats though.

Speed: Yes Teguro is faster but it isn't like Colossus can not keep up with him he is pretty fast and agile himself.

Durability: Colossus in spades. He has much better feats against much stronger people. Not to mention Teguro's near island destroying blast are things Havok and Cyclops can do.

Stamina: Colossus the guy doesn't need to eat or breath or sleep in armored form.

Powers: Obviously Teguro because he does have energy output but it isn't anything Colossus hasn't seen before and seeing as Colossus pretty much resisted Sym when he was basically a Demonic God I doubt Soul Absorption is going to work.

H2H: Teguro although once again Colossus isn't a slouch.

Experience: in terms of years Teguro, in terms of actual fighting and experience Colossus. Colossus has seen more in his lifetime than Teguro would see in ten of his.

Overall Teguro's advantages become moot when considering Colossus can take everything Teguro could ever hope to while Teguro does actually have a lower durability considering Havok level blasts could take hurt him and cause him to scream in pain. Strength: Toguro in 20-30% carried a like 100 ton arena miles to the current dome. How's that for a strength feat?

Speed: Toguro is MUCH faster than Piotr.

Durability: And? Toguro took it easily, and was not even 100%. Also, healing factor.

Stamina: Hmmm, forgot about that, alright I give Piotr the win here.

Powers: Toguro simultaneously ate the souls of nearly everyone in the Tournament stands.

H2H: Toguro is much more skilled in H2H than Piotr, who is competant in it, but not a master like Toguro.

Experience: Toguro at a young age was a demon killer, and won the Dark Tournament and became a demon, and had to beat the highest form of demon to do so, which is also what Toguro became.

Once again, Toguro has a healing factor, which Piotr does not have.

Originally posted by Newjak
Oh yeah the one that obviously was going over what 50 MPH at best because as we all know that is so fast for acomicbook character

All things Spiderman, Wolverine, and even Captain America have done except they do it more often with greater ease and with more people.

I think that is where you guys are getting confused seriously I'm not saying they aren't fast but by comicbook standards they really aren't especially when compared to other people Colossus has fought.

The guy is fast but Colossus isn't a slouch either for someone of that strength.



Strength: Equal or Colossus because Colossus actually has good strength feats Teguro has great energy feats though.

Speed: Yes Teguro is faster but it isn't like Colossus can not keep up with him he is pretty fast and agile himself.

Durability: Colossus in spades. He has much better feats against much stronger people. Not to mention Teguro's near island destroying blast are things Havok and Cyclops can do.

Stamina: Colossus the guy doesn't need to eat or breath or sleep in armored form.

Powers: Obviously Teguro because he does have energy output but it isn't anything Colossus hasn't seen before and seeing as Colossus pretty much resisted Sym when he was basically a Demonic God I doubt Soul Absorption is going to work.

H2H: Teguro although once again Colossus isn't a slouch.

Experience: in terms of years Teguro, in terms of actual fighting and experience Colossus. Colossus has seen more in his lifetime than Teguro would see in ten of his.

Overall Teguro's advantages become moot when considering Colossus can take everything Teguro could ever hope to while Teguro does actually have a lower durability considering Havok level blasts could take hurt him and cause him to scream in pain. Toguro never screamed in pain at any blast what are you talking about.

Still no proof that Piotr can resist a soul suck.....

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Strength: Toguro in 20-30% carried a like 100 ton arena miles to the current dome. How's that for a strength feat?

Speed: Toguro is MUCH faster than Piotr.

Durability: And? Toguro took it easily, and was not even 100%. Also, healing factor.

Stamina: Hmmm, forgot about that, alright I give Piotr the win here.

Powers: Toguro simultaneously ate the souls of nearly everyone in the Tournament stands.

H2H: Toguro is much more skilled in H2H than Piotr, who is competant in it, but not a master like Toguro.

Experience: Toguro at a young age was a demon killer, and won the Dark Tournament and became a demon, and had to beat the highest form of demon to do so, which is also what Toguro became.

Once again, Toguro has a healing factor, which Piotr does not have.

Yeah Colossus has been across the stars battled God's, Aliens, demons, has died and come back to life. I think what Colossus has seen trumps Teguro

By the way

Strength: Colossus carried the Blackbird underwater from out of the ocean and has broken Vibranium before.


Teguro got flung from one side of the island to the other Colossus when taking similar blasts hasn't moved at all. I mean seriously Colossus has fallen over a mile high before completley unscathed and ready to fight.

And Teguro has a HF but Colossus doesn't need one because Teguro could barely hurt him.



Originally posted by Estacado
Still no proof that Piotr can resist a soul suck..... He has resisted Demonic Energy which is how Teguro sucked there souls

This things still around?

Good stuff guys, I love debates with a character I'm not familar with ie.Toguro

Originally posted by Newjak
And he took Sas's best hits nad wasn't beaten

Best hits? *snickers* For the actual comic Sas was literally treating him like a kid lifting him above his head and putting his hand on Colossus forehead while Colossus swung his hands around. Regardless that was teenage Colossus, he has gotten stronger since then so I doubt that would be an accurate portrayal today.

Newjak is impressing me with his Colossus knowledge. He rivals the great snoopdogg in that area.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope


Experience: Toguro at a young age was a demon killer, and won the Dark Tournament and became a demon, and had to beat the highest form of demon to do so, which is also what Toguro became.


Toguro was only B-class demon. High B I believe but still only B. There is still A and S class demons so he isn't the highest form.

I don't know to much about Colossus but I don't think he can win. Toguro has been fighting a lot longer so he should be a better fighter. I can't say anything about strength or durability even though Toguro has a whole lot I don't know much about Colossus to know how much he has besides cl100 strength which Toguro has also. Speed and power would go to Toguro also. I'd go with Toguro in a fight over Colossus any day though. Mainly because of his power and him being more skilled in fighting while having at the least strength that rivals if not surpassed Colossus. Not even taking into account his speed advantage.

At the time, he WAS the highest class of demon. THat was said repeatedly.

Kinda like how Frieza WAS the strongest being in all the universe.

Then everyone and their mother is stronger than him.

Same happened with Toguro. He goes from the "highest class of demon" to being a pretty much average to below-average demon with possibly thousands of demons equal to him.

It pisses me off.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Good stuff guys, I love debates with a character I'm not familar with ie.Toguro



Best hits? *snickers* For the actual comic Sas was literally treating him like a kid lifting him above his head and putting his hand on Colossus forehead while Colossus swung his hands around. Regardless that was teenage Colossus, he has gotten stronger since then so I doubt that would be an accurate portrayal today. Teguro is very dangerous fighter

He is definitly a low class 100 although I think he is probably a little lower durability wise with a low to mid end healing factor.

His speed is more than likely around Wolverine level although I would say Wolverine is faster and more agile than Teguro.


Basically Teguro isn't anything Colossus hasn't seen before, fought before, and beat before.

It would be a good match but I think Colossus being the more Durable of the two would win.

Originally posted by Newjak
Like I said all those feats are things Spider-man and Wolverine have done multiple times with multiple people.
Even Spider-Man has never pulled speed like this before.
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/4156/yuyuhakushovol10ch06pagwq8.jpg
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/1461/yuyuhakushovol10ch06pagmf5.jpg

Even if he did, it would be more like a "once in a blue moon" thing.
This basically tells us just how fast even someone like Genkai can be, and she wasn't even fast enough to avoid Toguro completely during their fight.
Originally posted by Newjak
I'm not saying they aren't fast just saying they are not OMG they are as fast as Superman speed.
He isn't, but he doesn't need to be.
Originally posted by Newjak
And I love that excuse oh look they fight so fast they teleport from one place to the next. It's artistic drawing showcasing them fighting fast yes but how fast no one knows.

Or let me put it this way.
"ZOMG look Spiderman in one panel appears to be in 6 places at the sametime ZOMG he must be so faster than light to do that"
In most cases, you might be right, but the fact that was able to pull this stuff off during his fight with Yusuke (even dodging Yusuke's attacks) or moving faster than Hiei can get to him (the guy who can move fast enough to slice a guy sixteen times in one hundredth of a second).
Originally posted by Newjak
Artisitc drawing has very little to do with actual speed what we do know though is that the characters in Yu Yu Hakasu could barely chase down or run away from vehicles so at best from what we've seen Yusuke can run at maybe 60 MPH.

That doesn't scream anything faster than Wolverine.
That's comparing apples and oranges though. Taking into account their actual fights, we've seen Hiei go up against a guy who could throw one hundred punches a second and slice him up sixteen times before he even throws one says multitudes about their speed. Consider the fact that Yusuke was even faster than Hiei was at the point and that Toguro was keeping up with him just fine and Colossus just ain't keeping up.


Don't get me wrong, no ones likes to prove an American comic character's superiority over a manga character more than me, but Toguro has every advantage here that really matters. Even if you could make a case that Colossus is more durable, it wouldn't be nearly enough to give him the edge, much less the win.

Originally posted by Accel
Even Spider-Man has never pulled speed like this before.
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/4156/yuyuhakushovol10ch06pagwq8.jpg
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/1461/yuyuhakushovol10ch06pagmf5.jpg

Even if he did, it would be more like a "once in a blue moon" thing.
This basically tells us just how fast even someone like Genkai can be, and she wasn't even fast enough to avoid Toguro completely during their fight.

He isn't, but he doesn't need to be.

In most cases, you might be right, but the fact that was able to pull this stuff off during his fight with Yusuke (even dodging Yusuke's attacks) or moving faster than Hiei can get to him (the guy who can move fast enough to slice a guy sixteen times in one hundredth of a second).

That's comparing apples and oranges though. Taking into account their actual fights, we've seen Hiei go up against a guy who could throw one hundred punches a second and slice him up sixteen times before he even throws one says multitudes about their speed. Consider the fact that Yusuke was even faster than Hiei was at the point and that Toguro was keeping up with him just fine and Colossus just ain't keeping up.


Don't get me wrong, no ones likes to prove an American comic character's superiority over a manga character more than me, but Toguro has every advantage here that really matters. Even if you could make a case that Colossus is more durable, it wouldn't be nearly enough to give him the edge, much less the win.

Except Spiderman and Wolverine and Captain America and Slade and even Batman(some times) have all pulled off similar feats throughout their career in more times "Than once in a blue moon"


By the way the guy that could throw 100 punches in a second. Isn't that what he said. You know he said he could do that doesn't mean he can it's called hyperbole. All we know is Hiei was fast enough to cut him 16 times as he was charging to punch Hiei. Fast but not exceptional speed for a comic book character.

People are reaching here oh Genkai grabbed the guys fake nose really fast. Spiderman and Wolverine could never do that

Even though it is things they commonly do all the time just go check their respect threads. Move to fast for normal people to react.

And its not comparing apples and oranges it shows when they are actually using measurable speed we see they really aren't that fast. Their best speed feats are when they face eachother and we see them fighting fast therefore they must be super fast right. Thats great logic to use but it's not and use of that kind of logic would get you laughed at if this were American Comics vs American Comics.

Colossus is more durable then Teguro and has been shown to take whatever Teguro could hope to dish physically. He has been shown to fight guys as fast as Teguro before in Wolverine and Spiderman.

Ok then seriously let's look at all the feats you guys have given.

Moves to fast for someone to see

Can dodge tons of things being hurled at them


But at the sametime can barely chase a speeding truck and barely run away from a slow moving bus.


That just screams Wolverine and Spiderman reaction time to me in fact it is basically what Wovlerine and Spiderman do all the time.

Originally posted by Newjak
Except Spiderman and Wolverine and Captain America and Slade and even Batman(some times) have all pulled off similar feats throughout their career in more times "Than once in a blue moon"
None of them have moved a good 10 yards and back to take something from their opponent while the guy was looking at them the whole time. That's mainly what's so impressive about that particular feat.
Originally posted by Newjak
By the way the guy that could throw 100 punches in a second. Isn't that what he said. You know he said he could do that doesn't mean he can it's called hyperbole. All we know is Hiei was fast enough to cut him 16 times as he was charging to punch Hiei. Fast but not exceptional speed for a comic book character.
He was describing what the attack was right after pulling it off. That's generally how people roll in Shonen manga, which is they explain how their abilities work so the reader knows what just happened.

If they didn't, our only other option is to basically count or estimate, and we sure as hell can't do that in one panel.
Originally posted by Newjak
People are reaching here oh Genkai grabbed the guys fake nose really fast. Spiderman and Wolverine could never do that

Even though it is things they commonly do all the time just go check their respect threads. Move to fast for normal people to react.
You're kind of missing the point here. It's not like she just walked up to him and play the the "the hand is faster than the eye" trick by swiping his nose. She did it while at the very edge of the ring while the man was still standing in the middle.

And the guy was far from a normal person either. He was a relatively powerful demon who had some degree of superspeed of his own (he could react just fine to Kuwabara, who way before that point was a bonfide bullet timer).
Originally posted by Newjak

And its not comparing apples and oranges it shows when they are actually using measurable speed we see they really aren't that fast. Their best speed feats are when they face eachother and we see them fighting fast therefore they must be super fast right. Thats great logic to use but it's not and use of that kind of logic would get you laughed at if this were American Comics vs American Comics.

Even when comparing American comics, we've come to note there's a big difference between someone's combat speed (apples) and travel speed (oranges).

Take Thor for instance. The guy has shown he can fly at 3X the speed of light, but most of the time in a fight he can hardly react to people who can't even move at the speed of sound.

For series like YYH and DBZ, you have to apply some ABC logic, like

Toguro = Yusuke>> Saint Beasts Hiei>>>>> Blue Dragon guy (forget his name)
Originally posted by Newjak
Colossus is more durable then Teguro and has been shown to take whatever Teguro could hope to dish physically. He has been shown to fight guys as fast as Teguro before in Wolverine and Spiderman.
The problem is Toguro is a great deal faster than Colossus, Spider-Man, or Wolverine. Even if he was only as fast as Spider-Man, combined with his feroucious power, that wold still be enough to keep leaping around and keep pounding away at Petey.

Even if you take into account he goes to 100%, his thumb strength alone was more enough against Yusuke than his 80% powered body, which say leaps and bounds about the difference between 100% and 80% for Toguro. When you remember that most of his greatest strength and durability feats took place when he was at 80% or lower (like carrying the ring across the island), than he's easily strong enough to hurt Colossus.

Originally posted by Accel
None of them have moved a good 10 yards and back to take something from their opponent while the guy was looking at them the whole time. That's mainly what's so impressive about that particular feat.

He was describing what the attack was right after pulling it off. That's generally how people roll in Shonen manga, which is they explain how their abilities work so the reader knows what just happened.

If they didn't, our only other option is to basically count or estimate, and we sure as hell can't do that in one panel.

You're kind of missing the point here. It's not like she just walked up to him and play the the "the hand is faster than the eye" trick by swiping his nose. She did it while at the very edge of the ring while the man was still standing in the middle.

And the guy was far from a normal person either. He was a relatively powerful demon who had some degree of superspeed of his own (he could react just fine to Kuwabara, who way before that point was a bonfide bullet timer).

Even when comparing American comics, we've come to note there's a big difference between someone's combat speed (apples) and travel speed (oranges).

Take Thor for instance. The guy has shown he can fly at 3X the speed of light, but most of the time in a fight he can hardly react to people who can't even move at the speed of sound.

For series like YYH and DBZ, you have to apply some ABC logic, like

Toguro = Yusuke>> Saint Beasts Hiei>>>>> Blue Dragon guy (forget his name)

The problem is Toguro is a great deal faster than Colossus, Spider-Man, or Wolverine. Even if he was only as fast as Spider-Man, combined with his feroucious power, that wold still be enough to keep leaping around and keep pounding away at Petey.

Even if you take into account he goes to 100%, his thumb strength alone was more enough against Yusuke than his 80% powered body, which say leaps and bounds about the difference between 100% and 80% for Toguro. When you remember that most of his greatest strength and durability feats took place when he was at 80% or lower (like carrying the ring across the island), than he's easily strong enough to hurt Colossus. Actually they have once again check out the respect threads and you will see what I mean. Spiderman continuly moves faster than humans can track and often is shown dnacing around the person in multiple images on the same panel which actually atristically speaking is better than some blurry lines

The point is it is hyperbole it doesn't matter wether he said it or not. If some new guy in the commic came in and said oh look I can lift a car and toss it a mile but he never does just knocks out a human being then we would say he couldn't do becasue his best feat is knocking out a human.

That is the whole basis of the Teguro Argument. You guys are basing his speed indirectly to somone who has no actuall speed feats to begin with.

And it may be apples in oranges but there is still a direct relevence to one's speed and ability to move.

By the way Thor uses the hammer not his own power to fly and he can react faster than the speed of sound anyways.

But the point is you are basing it off of a guy with no speed feats when there are speed feats that directly contradict that they can move that fast. Yusuke can run at max 60 MPH as shown by his own feats and is more directly related to Teguro than the Blue Dragon.

Colossus is slwoer than Teguro yes but Colossus is far from being slow when armored up.

And no he isn't easily strong enough to hurt Colossus considering Colossus takes Spirit Gun blasts all the time in the form of Cyclops and Havok without flinching and has overpowered She-Hulk.

By the way She-Hulk does have better strength feats than Teguro.

So then how do you prove Teguro is a good deal faster than Wolverine you show him doing feats that are beyond those guys which you haven't.

Your best argument is hyperbole ridden with direct contradictions to it.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
At the time, he WAS the highest class of demon. THat was said repeatedly.

Kinda like how Frieza WAS the strongest being in all the universe.

Then everyone and their mother is stronger than him.

Same happened with Toguro. He goes from the "highest class of demon" to being a pretty much average to below-average demon with possibly thousands of demons equal to him.

It pisses me off. Well Freeza was the strongest being in the universe. Gokou got stronger, then the androids were made after, and Buu was sealed away. But yea it's been a while since I watched Yu Yu Hakusho so I don't remember them saying he was the highest class since I don't remember them saying classes until after when they got past those humans Genkai used to test them and that Hiei was still weaker at low B or Mid B one of the two.

Originally posted by Newjak
That is the whole basis of the Teguro Argument. You guys are basing his speed indirectly to somone who has no actuall speed feats to begin with.

But the point is you are basing it off of a guy with no speed feats when there are speed feats that directly contradict that they can move that fast. Yusuke can run at max 60 MPH as shown by his own feats and is more directly related to Teguro than the Blue Dragon.

Colossus is slwoer than Teguro yes but Colossus is far from being slow when armored up.

And no he isn't easily strong enough to hurt Colossus considering Colossus takes Spirit Gun blasts all the time in the form of Cyclops and Havok without flinching and has overpowered She-Hulk.

By the way She-Hulk does have better strength feats than Teguro.

So then how do you prove Teguro is a good deal faster than Wolverine you show him doing feats that are beyond those guys which you haven't.
Toguro does have speed. If somebody came out and beat Spidey easily then it stands to reason that guy is faster than Spidey and if that guy gets beat by someone else then it's easy to see that guy is faster than Spidey also. Same thing with Toguro. Urameshi is faster than Hiei and Toguro was faster than Urameshi. Spidey and Logan may be faster than a normal person but the DT fighters aren't normal humans. There all demons who are faster than any normal human also.

Why was Cyke fighting Colossus and why would he be using the full power of his optic blasts against a friend? She-Hulk I don't know since I know little about her.

At the least Hiei would be Spidey level speed at the DT beginning, at the least, and Urameshi and Toguro both surpass him by a good deal in both speed and power. Are you going to tell me that Sensui or Raisen are only Spidey level in speed? They don't have really any speed feats that I can remember even though they are able to easily move faster than a stronger and faster Hiei and Urameshi.

Toguro is the highest FORM of demon, in other words, the best species, this has been said. Toguro was faster than Genkai at 80%, eho almost instantly ran thru a whole forest. Toguro lifted an arena that was AT LEAST 100 tons, and carried it miles across an island at like 20-30%. Toguro>>>Collossus by leaps and bounds of the Hulk.

toguro wins easily. colossus won't even touch him.


kuwabara would beat colossus far faster

also toguro is not the strongerest class of demond he simply a level B+

No, he is the strongest FORM of demon, which means the highest species.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
No, he is the strongest FORM of demon, which means the highest species.
he not you find out in chapter black that there are level A and s class demons.

toguro is a class B

I know nothing of Toguro so I cannot comment on this fight. But I am impressed with Newjaks Colossus skills. Durability is key in a fight.

Good sh!t man.

Originally posted by Kento
Well Freeza was the strongest being in the universe. Gokou got stronger, then the androids were made after, and Buu was sealed away. But yea it's been a while since I watched Yu Yu Hakusho so I don't remember them saying he was the highest class since I don't remember them saying classes until after when they got past those humans Genkai used to test them and that Hiei was still weaker at low B or Mid B one of the two.

Toguro does have speed. If somebody came out and beat Spidey easily then it stands to reason that guy is faster than Spidey and if that guy gets beat by someone else then it's easy to see that guy is faster than Spidey also. Same thing with Toguro. Urameshi is faster than Hiei and Toguro was faster than Urameshi. Spidey and Logan may be faster than a normal person but the DT fighters aren't normal humans. There all demons who are faster than any normal human also.

Why was Cyke fighting Colossus and why would he be using the full power of his optic blasts against a friend? She-Hulk I don't know since I know little about her.

At the least Hiei would be Spidey level speed at the DT beginning, at the least, and Urameshi and Toguro both surpass him by a good deal in both speed and power. Are you going to tell me that Sensui or Raisen are only Spidey level in speed? They don't have really any speed feats that I can remember even though they are able to easily move faster than a stronger and faster Hiei and Urameshi. He has speed but once again nothing that Colossus hasn't seen before.

Seriously the entire argument is being based on indirectly on a being whose best feat is hyperbole stated and not actually shown.

And FYI Wolverine and Spidey's feats are better than Teguro's and in some instances way better than Hiei as well. Once again the best speed feat you can come up with for Teguro is a hyperbole feat. That means it means jack and nothing when being used considering there are no other feats for the Blue Dragon.

I mean you can make a million connections.

This guy beat that guy and that guy was faster than this guy and that guy was faster than this other guy and that guy said he could do this

but when the entire connection has such a weak foundation as Hyperbole the whole argument falls apart.

spiderman has never moved faster then meta humans could see.........

Originally posted by Battlehammer
spiderman has never moved faster then meta humans could see......... You mean like Luke cage and other Meta-Humans like that and like I said visit his respect thread he has tons upon tons of high speed feats.

The best being presented for Teguro is that Yusuke can match Hiei who was faster than this one guy the Blue Dragon who said he punch 100 times in a second.

So the entire Teguro argument is based on Hyperbole so you actually have to look at his actual feats and there is nothing that states he anywhere near faster than Spider-man or Wolverine.

There are on the other hand feats to contradict supposed Godly speed like Yusuke being unable to run with a truck which took place after the DT saga.

So we don't really have solid feats for but we do have solid feats against.

Originally posted by Newjak
You mean like Luke cage and other Meta-Humans like that and like I said visit his respect thread he has tons upon tons of high speed feats.
no i mean meta that actaully has superhuman reflexes.

Originally posted by Newjak
The best being presented for Teguro is that Yusuke can match Hiei who was faster than this one guy the Blue Dragon who said he punch 100 times in a second.
actaully he was faster then hiei and heie was unable to fallow his movements........

Originally posted by Newjak
So the entire Teguro argument is based on Hyperbole so you actually have to look at his actual feats and there is nothing that states he anywhere near faster than Spider-man or Wolverine..

actaully it not hyper boling..........

Originally posted by Newjak
There are on the other hand feats to contradict supposed Godly speed like Yusuke being unable to run with a truck which took place after the DT saga...
which was shown to be a joke........and yusuke was out of energy.........

Originally posted by Battlehammer
no i mean meta that actaully has superhuman reflexes.


actaully he was faster then hiei and heie was unable to fallow his movements........



actaully it not hyper boling..........


which was shown to be a joke........and yusuke was out of energy......... Actually it was hyperboling seeing as he only said he could punch 100 times he never actually showed he could.

Yeah because Yusuke was obviously joking about saving his best friend

Originally posted by Newjak
Actually it was hyperboling seeing as he only said he could punch 100 times he never actually showed he could.

Yeah because Yusuke was obviously joking about saving his best friend

it was stated...........and then he moved so fast he kill the guy with out him being able to react...........




have you even seen the episode it was clearly made out of humor..........not to mention yuske was out of power meaning he was imply a normal human at the time keeping up with a car..........

Originally posted by Battlehammer
it was stated...........and then he moved so fast he kill the guy with out him being able to react...........




have you even seen the episode it was clearly made out of humor..........not to mention yuske was out of power meaning he was imply a normal human at the time keeping up with a car.......... It was stated then he got cut by Hiei the Blue Dragon was only on screen when he killed the other saint Beast then got killed.



So it was a joke because you don't like the fact it makes Yusuke look bad and that wasn't the only time he was barely able to outrun a bus coming at him.

Every time he runs through the city it takes him forever to get around.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
he not you find out in chapter black that there are level A and s class demons.

toguro is a class B No, he is by no means the most powerful, but he was stated to be the highest class of demon, which means his actual species, not power.

toguro destroys colossus. Toguro vs 3 colossus, all 3 of them would easily get killed in seconds. This is a none fight.

This is suicide for colossus. Anyone who thinks other wise dont know anything about any yuyu character, especially toguro.

Toguro vs 3 colossus; toguro 10/10

Originally posted by Newjak
He has speed but once again nothing that Colossus hasn't seen before.

Seriously the entire argument is being based on indirectly on a being whose best feat is hyperbole stated and not actually shown.

And FYI Wolverine and Spidey's feats are better than Teguro's and in some instances way better than Hiei as well. Once again the best speed feat you can come up with for Teguro is a hyperbole feat. That means it means jack and nothing when being used considering there are no other feats for the Blue Dragon.

I mean you can make a million connections.

This guy beat that guy and that guy was faster than this guy and that guy was faster than this other guy and that guy said he could do this

but when the entire connection has such a weak foundation as Hyperbole the whole argument falls apart. How about he was faster than Genkai who was able to snatch the guy's fake nose off without him realizing or seeing? In anime you have to look at what other people have done before that with speed or power and how easily they were beat. ABC logic is really the only way to do something from manga or anime. And it's not like they were moving faster than normal humans can see. They were moving faster than highly trained demons could see that could easily move faster than a normal human.

Originally posted by Newjak
Every time he runs through the city it takes him forever to get around. It's like that in some animes. Like in Hokuto No Ken, it takes Ken a while to get places even when running yet when he went to a place of the deadliest and best fighters he fought so fast he wasn't even moving to the other fighters around him and his opponent. Or in GetBackers Ban was shown leaning against the wall but was able to move up to a higher platform and touch some guy without even seeming to move yet he takes a while to actually get places and uses a car.

Originally posted by Kento
How about he was faster than Genkai who was able to snatch the guy's fake nose off without him realizing or seeing? In anime you have to look at what other people have done before that with speed or power and how easily they were beat. ABC logic is really the only way to do something from manga or anime. And it's not like they were moving faster than normal humans can see. They were moving faster than highly trained demons could see that could easily move faster than a normal human.

It's like that in some animes. Like in Hokuto No Ken, it takes Ken a while to get places even when running yet when he went to a place of the deadliest and best fighters he fought so fast he wasn't even moving to the other fighters around him and his opponent. Or in GetBackers Ban was shown leaning against the wall but was able to move up to a higher platform and touch some guy without even seeming to move yet he takes a while to actually get places and uses a car. So youi have to use BAC Logic which is one of the worst ways to determine power levels seeing as most of the people being used

Like the clown and Blue Dragon have basically no speed feats of their own. It is a baseless foundation and shows they have not demonstrated any speed or reaction feat Spiderman or WOlverine or even Captai nAMerica hasn't done.


And by the way I'm talking about Yu Yu Hakasu. Not some other anime where the speed feats of Yu Yu Hakasu are pathetic compared to most Comic characters feats. Their feats put them in the low to mid meta range for that cateogry. Their overall power level was pathetic to begin with.

Ironman would destroy any Yu Yu Hakasu character with his weapons even an S class Demon.

The show was good but the whole logic off people being biult up on such baseless BAC logic fails and is just flat out not good especially when you look at tehir actual feats for themselves.

Originally posted by Soljer
Very good points, accel...

However, you completely neglected to mention something...

Colossus, 10/10.

.
Owned.

Toguro is much faster than Genkai. Genkai ran thru the Forest of Death almost instantly.

not to mention kuwabara makes a comment in the dark tourament that now he was able to see people move that he could not before..........and toguro at the time was many many many many times faster then kuwabara.........at the time

Originally posted by Battlehammer
not to mention kuwabara makes a comment in the dark tourament that now he was able to see people move that he could not before..........and toguro at the time was many many many many times faster then kuwabara.........at the time Yep I'm glad that clears everything up Kuwabara can now keep up with fighters great feats and logic on display here guys

actaully spidermans best speed feat is moving so fast a normal human saw him in a blur...........

how does the even campare to people moving so fast people beyond human can see them move?

Originally posted by Battlehammer
actaully spidermans best speed feat is moving so fast a normal human saw him in a blur...........

how does the even campare to people moving so fast people beyond human can see them move? actually spiderman's best speed feat is dancing around someone appearing to be in multiple places at the same time but I guess we don't include that.

I don't know if this will be a factor but here is proof Colossus is immune to magical spells.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Colossus%20durablity/Colossusresistspellunc241.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Colossus%20durablity/Colossusresistspellunc241-2.jpg

Originally posted by Newjak
actually spiderman's best speed feat is dancing around someone appearing to be in multiple places at the same time but I guess we don't include that.

that was an agility feat mostly...........and again a normal person and he was still seen.........he was just movign extremely fast.

he never moved fast enough were a person with superhuman reflexes could not see him

Originally posted by Battlehammer
that was an agility feat mostly...........and again a normal person and he was still seen.........he was just movign extremely fast.

he never moved fast enough were a person with superhuman reflexes could not see him Oh yeah appearing to be in different places at the same time is an agility feat I'll go tell Superman that


Yep because you know most superpowered being like Luke Cage or Colossus don't have Superhuman reflexes oh wait they do. hmm

lol colossus nor luke cage have superhuman reflexes.............and if you think that your a fool

Originally posted by Battlehammer
lol colossus nor luke cage have superhuman reflexes.............and if you think that your a fool Except they both have pulled off incredible feats of reaction time before.

You know like Colossus jumping over a Sentinel and knocking its head off before it can do anything.

You know the same Robots that have computer minds and can calculate far faster than a human.

...................jumping at some thing would ahve to do with your leg strength.........no reflex speed.........and sentials have never shown to have anything clsoe to fast reflexes.......the only type that had them colossus could not even see the thing move........

Originally posted by Battlehammer
...................jumping at some thing would ahve to do with your leg strength.........no reflex speed.........and sentials have never shown to have anything clsoe to fast reflexes.......the only type that had them colossus could not even see the thing move........ Correct me if I'm wrong but I said jump over and knock its head off before it could do anything.

Obviously something like that isn't human

Luke Cage has fought Ironfist before who is a Bullet Dodger

Luke Cage has fought Ironman who has enhanced reflexes before.


Colossus has moved so fast another superpowered being Juggernaut couldn't keep up with him.

..............luke cage fighting iron fist make shim ahve superhuman reflexs........that rediculous. Iron fist was display far greater reflexes and combat speed during there fights.........

which iron man........some of them have normal human relfexes.........and when does fighting some one make you have superhuman reflexes?


when did colossus do this? I lvoe to see prove of this..........also thats not even a reflex speed that be running speed............

Originally posted by Battlehammer
..............luke cage fighting iron fist make shim ahve superhuman reflexs........that rediculous. Iron fist was display far greater reflexes and combat speed during there fights.........

which iron man........some of them have normal human relfexes.........and when does fighting some one make you have superhuman reflexes?


when did colossus do this? I lvoe to see prove of this..........also thats not even a reflex speed that be running speed............ well seeing as your entire argument for Teguro is based on you know him fighting people that supposedly have this super human speed.


How is it a running feat to to you know to move to fast for someone?

..............running faster then some one else........is a running speed feat.....not reflex

Originally posted by Battlehammer
..............running faster then some one else........is a running speed feat.....not reflex I see so you cna make whatever rules to govern teguro's speed but apparently it can not be applied to other comicbook people.

Nice

Originally posted by Newjak
I see so you cna make whatever rules to govern teguro's speed but apparently it can not be applied to other comicbook people.

Nice

newjak, you're arguing against battlethimble. you can't win.

Originally posted by Newjak
I see so you cna make whatever rules to govern teguro's speed but apparently it can not be applied to other comicbook people.

Nice

what?


I not the one trying to see a runing speed feat is a reflex feat.

go look up reflex.

some one running faster then some one else is a speed feat not reflex. There completely different

Originally posted by masterbruce
newjak, you're arguing against battlethimble. you can't win.

no need........plus would side with some one with out knowing what were talking about

Originally posted by masterbruce
newjak, you're arguing against battlethimble. you can't win. Yeah I know because Teguro showed great Reaction feats in his fights with Yusuke.

I mean I thought in his match with him all he did was you know run around fast which I guess means now Teguro possess no reflex Feats

Originally posted by Battlehammer
what?


I not the one trying to see a runing speed feat is a reflex feat.

go look up reflex.

some one running faster then some one else is a speed feat not reflex. There completely different Except it was a reaction feat of Colossu dodging and then kicking Juggernaut before he could do anything.

Originally posted by Newjak
Except it was a reaction feat of Colossu dodging and then kicking Juggernaut before he could do anything.
well why ddient you mention that you simply said runnign faster then juggernaut..........also juggernaut has normal human reflexs.........

Originally posted by Battlehammer
also juggernaut has normal human reflexs......... how do you know that? (not saying you're wrong, just wondering if it is stated somewhere)

Originally posted by Battlehammer
well why ddient you mention that you simply said runnign faster then juggernaut..........also juggernaut has normal human reflexs......... No you just chose to read it your way because I never mentioned anything about a race just that Colossus moved so fast the person he was fighting couldn't keep up with him.

Actually Cain Marko does have some reflex speed but even if he was only human than guess what Colossus still can outreact and move faster than a human can follow.

Isn't that such a big deal in Yu Yu Hakasu

newjack, I have a question for you, do you think kid goku, when he was about 7 or 8 had super speed. Im referring to the time when he was fighting krillin and master roshi in regular dragonball. NOT dragonballz.

if you do think that he had speed, do you think that he was faster than spiderman or wolverine.

Originally posted by Newjak
No you just chose to read it your way because I never mentioned anything about a race just that Colossus moved so fast the person he was fighting couldn't keep up with him.

Actually Cain Marko does have some reflex speed but even if he was only human than guess what Colossus still can outreact and move faster than a human can follow.

Isn't that such a big deal in Yu Yu Hakasu
Except yuyu charactes completelly dissapear against people who are above humans in reaction speed,heie can cut 16 times in a split second and was much faster by dark tournament,yusuke was his equal then and toguro was able to completelly disappear and blitz yusuke at the end of the tournament after being powered up...I really dont rem collosus being that fast.

new jack answer the above question for me.

Originally posted by vlaaad12345
Except yuyu charactes completelly dissapear against people who are above humans in reaction speed,heie can cut 16 times in a split second and was much faster by dark tournament,yusuke was his equal then and toguro was able to completelly disappear and blitz yusuke at the end of the tournament after being powered up...I really dont rem collosus being that fast. And like I said that is an artistic type expression of speed that is common among all animes.

Like Ruuroni Kenshin did that a lot as well.

Would you say he is faster than Spider-man and Wolverine. Not really.

I mean Spider-man has been artistically drawn to appear in multiple places at once does that mean he moves fast enough to leave after images and can move at the speed of light. No it doesn't it just means the artist wanted to show him moving very fast is all.

While cutting someone 16 times in a second is not a bad feat and is in fact good it isn't anything Wolverine hasn't done before.



As for your Dragonball question to tell you the truth I hardly ever watched the original episode of DB. Although from what I saw I would say not like Spiderman or Wolverine although like I said I'm drawing from limited knowledge on that show.

.........comic books have many writters........manga have one............manga character get progressivly upgraded faster..........while comic book characters don't. Hell some comic book characters abrly get any upgrades if at all.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
.........comic books have many writters........manga have one............manga character get progressivly upgraded faster..........while comic book characters don't. Hell some comic book characters abrly get any upgrades if at all. Yep so Wolverine who could had a very small Healing Factor in the begining obviously hasn't recieved a steady upgrade in abilities.

Spider-man has progessively gotten stronger in the feats he has done.

Colossus has recieved significant upgrades over the years.

even there up grades took time lots of it. Abnd abc logic does not work well with them becuase then have many different writters.


yu yu had one writter and they got more powerful at a far greater pace.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
even there up grades took time lots of it. Abnd abc logic does not work well with them becuase then have many different writters.


yu yu had one writter and they got more powerful at a far greater pace. So because thier upgrades may take longer, not really considering Feats can go straight through the roof in certain arcs progessivly,

And because Yu YU Hakasu has one writer ABC logic is a perfectly good logic based thing to use.

Despite the fact it still all goes back to someone with one speed feat that isn't even that good.