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Current DS

vs

Anti Monitor BEFORE he absorbed the life energies from the Anti Matter Universes.

Who takes it?

am

Originally posted by darthgoober
Current DS

vs

Anti Monitor BEFORE he absorbed the life energies from the Anti Matter Universes.

Who takes it?
nice thread, but i dont think current DS would give PC superman a fight imo..
AM ftw.

darkseid gets curbstomped. he is screaming for luthor as he dies.

Originally posted by Priest
nice thread, but i dont think current DS would give PC superman a fight imo..
AM ftw.
Supes was pretty heavily weakened when AM took him down, and Supergirl damn near took AM out afterwards, so it's a stretch to base it off that fight. I'm not claiming that DS wins here, just pointing that out.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Supes was pretty heavily weakened when AM took him down, and Supergirl damn near took AM out afterwards, so it's a stretch to base it off that fight. I'm not claiming that DS wins here, just pointing that out. i feel while am is highly overrated in this forum that darkseid still gets curbstomped here.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Supes was pretty heavily weakened when AM took him down, and Supergirl damn near took AM out afterwards, so it's a stretch to base it off that fight. I'm not claiming that DS wins here, just pointing that out. \oh shit, i was thinking of the AM after he fought Spectre, probably at his most weakened state..
Im gonna have to come back and do some research..

Originally posted by Priest
\oh shit, i was thinking of the AM after he fought Spectre, probably at his most weakened state..
Im gonna have to come back and do some research..
Yeah this is AM BEFORE all that went down.

Originally posted by quanchi112
i feel while am is highly overrated in this forum that darkseid still gets curbstomped here.
Again I'm not saying that AM wins, but he doesn't have anywhere NEAR the feats to suggest it would be a curbstomp IMO.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Again I'm not saying that AM wins, but he doesn't have anywhere NEAR the feats to suggest it would be a curbstomp IMO.

superpoke You and I aren't reading the same story apparently. Darkseid knew that if AM found Apokolips, he was screwed. Which is why he set up the cloaking field and cut off the 4th world in the first place.

AM smokes Darkseid. Universe destroying power ftw.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Again I'm not saying that AM wins, but he doesn't have anywhere NEAR the feats to suggest it would be a curbstomp IMO. I actually disagree with you on that one Dg....the Am maybe able to curbstomp Ds. I'm just going to wait for one of our Dc experts, to come along.

Originally posted by starking
I actually disagree with you on that one Dg....the Am maybe able to curbstomp Ds. I'm just going to wait for one of our Dc experts, to come along. whose a dc expert in here?

Originally posted by quanchi112
whose a dc expert in here?
Meherb

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
superpoke You and I aren't reading the same story apparently. Darkseid knew that if AM found Apokolips, he was screwed. Which is why he set up the cloaking field and cut off the 4th world in the first place.

AM smokes Darkseid. Universe destroying power ftw.
DS's current incarnation is being portrayed as being a bit more powerful than it was Pre Crisis(given the reality manipulation, creating pocket dimensions, etc.) so it's a bit of a stretch to base a winner off DS back in the day.

And it was never firmly established that he destroyed a universe without tech(and specifically mentioned that the anti matter wave that destroyed the Positive Matter Universe's WAS the result of tech). So the claim that he's a universal destroyer based off of his POSSIBLY destroying Pariah's universe(off-panel) when there's no further evidence to support it(and plenty to contradict it) is very similar to bringing up Sentry stalemating Galactus as evidence of him being more powerful than Darkseid.

Originally posted by darthgoober
DS's current incarnation is being portrayed as being a bit more powerful than it was Pre Crisis(given the reality manipulation, creating pocket dimensions, etc.) so it's a bit of a stretch to base a winner off DS back in the day.

And it was never firmly established that he destroyed a universe without tech(and specifically mentioned that the anti matter wave that destroyed the Positive Matter Universe's WAS the result of tech). So the claim that he's a universal destroyer based off of his POSSIBLY destroying Pariah's universe(off-panel) when there's no further evidence to support it(and plenty to contradict it) is very similar to bringing up Sentry stalemating Galactus as evidence of him being more powerful than Darkseid. ur a tricky one arent you.

The stairs win.

Originally posted by quanchi112
ur a tricky one arent you.
Not tricky, just fair. If unsubstantiated off panel evidence that's contradicted by on panel evidence isn't viable evidence for one character then it shouldn't be viable evidence for any character.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
The stairs win. i almost forgot about darkseid falling down the steps. it utterly makes him look ridicuolus even with the explanation.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
The stairs win.
now that would of been funy if this was a month ago...

Originally posted by darthgoober
Not tricky, just fair. If unsubstantiated off panel evidence that's contradicted by on panel evidence isn't viable evidence for one character then it shouldn't be viable evidence for any character. oh i agree with what ur saying.

Originally posted by darthgoober
DS's current incarnation is being portrayed as being a bit more powerful than it was Pre Crisis(given the reality manipulation, creating pocket dimensions, etc.) Bringing up reality manip, and/or pocket dimension creating where DS is concerned, is meh. ermm

Especially if you consider the fact that a freshly sun-amped Superman can pwn him with little trouble.. .



I guess that could all go back to the motto I've taken a liking to..


When he has to be,

Superman > ALL srug

Originally posted by Galan007
Bringing up reality manip, and/or pocket dimension creating where DS is concerned, is meh. ermm

Especially if you consider the fact that a freshly sun-amped Superman can pwn him with little trouble.. .



I guess that could all go back to the motto I've taken a liking to..


When he has to be,

Superman > ALL srug
You'd better watch that kind of talk or the DS fans are gonna come looking for you .

Originally posted by darthgoober
You'd better watch that kind of talk or the DS fans are gonna come looking for you . I'm a marked man darth.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm a marked man darth.
trickster, and Nver will go ape shit on ya

Nah. He just proved the existance of Superman's insane jobber aura. Which doesn't translate onto the forums. So he's actually helping our case. flirt

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Nah. He just proved the existance of Superman's insane jobber aura. Which doesn't translate onto the forums. So he's actually helping our case. flirt
So Trickster what do you think, do we accept AM's and Sentry's off panel "feats" or go by what we've actually seen?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Nah. He just proved the existance of Superman's insane jobber aura. Which doesn't translate onto the forums. So he's actually helping our case. flirt Jobber aura lol

Originally posted by Galan007
Jobber aura lol

Biomatrix force field = Jobber aura 131

Yo.

Originally posted by darthgoober
DS's current incarnation is being portrayed as being a bit more powerful than it was Pre Crisis(given the reality manipulation, creating pocket dimensions, etc.) so it's a bit of a stretch to base a winner off DS back in the day.

And it was never firmly established that he destroyed a universe without tech(and specifically mentioned that the anti matter wave that destroyed the Positive Matter Universe's WAS the result of tech). So the claim that he's a universal destroyer based off of his POSSIBLY destroying Pariah's universe(off-panel) when there's no further evidence to support it(and plenty to contradict it) is very similar to bringing up Sentry stalemating Galactus as evidence of him being more powerful than Darkseid.

I really dont know how U can claim its unsubstantiated and being POSSIBLE, when the proof was right there on the pages offered.

but then U tried to use a story written more than 10years later, had various situations mixed up, and tried to use THAT as eidence to support yur claims.

fact: AM & Mon were rendered unconscious after a simultaneous atk on 1 another.

fact: Pariahs experiment woke AM up, and *he* took advantage of it (with NO VISIBLE USE OF TECH) to consume that realm and absorb enuff power to free himself fully.

fact: we dont know of him having ANY tech before he went under.

fact: aside from 2 or 3 instances of a view screen being used, the only other tech we know he had was that Solar Collector (to slow down the vibratory rates keeping the last 5 'verses separated w/in Mon's Netherverse), and that AM-Cannon (presumably to be used to wipe out all 5 in 1 shot since he couldnt get at them under his own power.)

fact: we no evidence of him using tech to destroy any of the thousands upon thousands of 'verses that he did.

fact: that Legends -story involving "Earth-D" (upon review) had MORE than just that native GL wrong: such as John Stewarts ring suddenly working; Flash *somehow* appearing in that 'verse instead of appearing in front of Batman to tell him that something is wrong and calling for help, and info in the narration itself telling us that after "Earth-6" (Lady Quarks realm) got swept away there would be only *5* left; the Shadow Hunters somehow only "burning" their victims, and a few more inconsistencies.

Ive said it b4, and I'll say it again: that story doesnt fit, and becuz of that its a poor excuse of info to support any claims for AM using tech to destroy a universe.




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



I really dont know how U can claim its unsubstantiated and being POSSIBLE, when the proof was right there on the pages offered.

but then U tried to use a story written more than 10years later, had various situations mixed up, and tried to use THAT as eidence to support yur claims.

fact: AM & Mon were rendered unconscious after a simultaneous atk on 1 another.

fact: Pariahs experiment woke AM up, and *he* took advantage of it (with NO VISIBLE USE OF TECH) to consume that realm and absorb enuff power to free himself fully.

fact: we dont know of him having ANY tech before he went under.

fact: aside from 2 or 3 instances of a view screen being used, the only other tech we know he had was that Solar Collector (to slow down the vibratory rates keeping the last 5 'verses separated w/in Mon's Netherverse), and that AM-Cannon (presumably to be used to wipe out all 5 in 1 shot since he couldnt get at them under his own power.)

fact: we no evidence of him using tech to destroy any of the thousands upon thousands of 'verses that he did.

fact: that Legends -story involving "Earth-D" (upon review) had MORE than just that native GL wrong: such as John Stewarts ring suddenly working; Flash *somehow* appearing in that 'verse instead of appearing in front of Batman to tell him that something is wrong and calling for help, and info in the narration itself telling us that after "Earth-6" (Lady Quarks realm) got swept away there would be only *5* left; the Shadow Hunters somehow only "burning" their victims, and a few more inconsistencies.

Ive said it b4, and I'll say it again: that story doesnt fit, and becuz of that its a poor excuse of info to support any claims for AM using tech to destroy a universe.




Tazer
So then you accept Sentry stalemating Galactus as fact then?

And the fact that the story came out later doesn't mean that it's non canon. If nothing else, and differences could be considered a recton(which are still valid).

Yo.

Originally posted by darthgoober
So then you accept Sentry stalemating Galactus as fact then?

yes, becuz "stalemating" doesnt mean "fought to a standstill", and we've seen the FF do worse .




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



yes, becuz "stalemating" doesnt mean "fought to a standstill", and we've seen the FF do worse .




Tazer
The FF have never done worse without a plot device of some kind. But if you want to consider Sentry to be above the likes of Supes or DS that's your buisness.

Yo.

Originally posted by darthgoober
And the fact that the story came out later doesn't mean that it's non canon. If nothing else, and differences could be considered a recton(which are still valid).

which is STILL a lame arguement, since that ish *still doesnt support* the notion that AM used tech to destroy any p-m universes.

Originally posted by darthgoober
The FF have never done worse without a plot device of some kind. But if you want to consider Sentry to be above the likes of Supes or DS that's your buisness.

which is irregardless of the fact. Galactus getting stalemated means that he likely didnt get something that he wanted / that he was thwarted in some way, NOT that he got beaten in a power-battle.

if that line said that Sentry "kicked his ass", Ud have a point, but thats not wats said now is it??




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



which is STILL a lame arguement, since that ish *still doesnt support* the notion that AM used tech to destroy any p-m universes.
You mean the fact that it was established that AM's machines were the source of the Antimatter wave that destroyed the Positive Matter Universes doesn't support the notion that he used tech to destroy the Positive Matter Universes ?



Originally posted by Tazer
which is irregardless of the fact. Galactus getting stalemated means that he likely didnt get something that he wanted / that he was thwarted in some way, NOT that he got beaten in a power-battle.

if that line said that Sentry "kicked his ass", Ud have a point, but thats not wats said now is it??




Tazer
I didn't say that Sentry kicked his ass, I said he stalemated him. And since I don't see Supes or DS being able to stalemate Galactus that means that by your reasoning Sentry must be more powerful than both. After all, the implication by Spiderman was that he MATCHED Galactus's power.

And I was wrong about Spidey's statement. He didn't say that he stalemated Galactus, he actually DID say that he fought Galactus to a standstill...

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/6089/sentrygalactuscomment9ac.jpg

Originally posted by darthgoober
And since I don't see Supes or DS being able to stalemate Galactus Who beat Imperiex again?

Originally posted by Galan007
Who beat Imperiex again?
With Kismet's help you mean...

Originally posted by darthgoober
With Kismet's help you mean... Pfft...

Someone could have been helping Sentry too.... Spidey just forgot about that part. dur

Originally posted by Galan007
Pfft...

Someone could have been helping Sentry too.... Spidey just forgot about that part. dur
And AM could've been using tech to destoy Pariah's universe just like he did the rest of the Positive Matter Universes .

Originally posted by darthgoober
You mean the fact that it was established that AM's machines were the source of the Antimatter wave that destroyed the Positive Matter Universes doesn't support the notion that he used tech to destroy the Positive Matter Universes ?




I didn't say that Sentry kicked his ass, I said he stalemated him. And since I don't see Supes or DS being able to stalemate Galactus that means that by your reasoning Sentry must be more powerful than both. After all, the implication by Spiderman was that he MATCHED Galactus's power. u have logical points while tazer just applies what he wants to and disregards what he doesnt like.

Yo.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You mean the fact that it was established that AM's machines were the source of the Antimatter wave that destroyed the Positive Matter Universes doesn't support the notion that he used tech to destroy the Positive Matter Universes ?

yes, plz show us that panel that shows it was AMs MACHINES that was the source of the a-matter wave which did that.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I didn't say that Sentry kicked his ass, I said he stalemated him. And since I don't see Supes or DS being able to stalemate Galactus that means that by your reasoning Sentry must be more powerful than both. After all, the implication by Spiderman was that he MATCHED Galactus's power.

I didnt say U did either, now did I?

and if U wanna say Spidey matched Galactus' power, then yur on yur own defending THAT point.




Tazer

Yo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
u have logical points while tazer just applies what he wants to and disregards what he doesnt like.

thats a load of crap AS WELL AS being an outright lie; I *dare* ya to prove it.

hell, atleast 'goober MAKES his points w/o playing cheerleader and letting others do all the work.




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



yes, plz show us that panel that shows it was AMs MACHINES that was the source of the a-matter wave which did that.
Ok here you go(AGAIN)...
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/107/legendsofthedcucrisisonkd7.th.jpg
The heroes are gathered and trying to find a way to stop the approaching Antimatter Wave, AM comments that the feat is impossible because when matter and antimatter come into contact both are destroyed, and Psycho Pirate says "B-But what if they find a way to stop your MACHINES?".


Originally posted by Tazer
I didnt say U did either, now did I?

and if U wanna say Spidey matched Galactus' power, then yur on yur own defending THAT point.




Tazer
I wasn't talking about Spidey matching Galactus's power, I was talking about Spidey saying that Sentry fought Galactus to a standstill. So do you accept the feat or not?

Yo.

Originally posted by darthgoober
And I was wrong about Spidey's statement. He didn't say that he stalemated Galactus, he actually DID say that he fought Galactus to a standstill...

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/6089/sentrygalactuscomment9ac.jpg

and the FF have straight up BEATEN Galan, but that doesnt mean there werent extenuating circumstances behind it (like U touched on b4).....




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



and the FF have straight up BEATEN Galan, but that doesnt mean there werent extenuating circumstances behind it (like U touched on b4).....




Tazer
When?

Yo.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Ok here you go(AGAIN)...
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/107/legendsofthedcucrisisonkd7.th.jpg
The heroes are gathered and trying to find a way to stop the approaching Antimatter Wave, AM comments that the feat is impossible because when matter and antimatter come into contact both are destroyed, and Psycho Pirate says "B-But what if they find a way to stop your MACHINES?".

which doesnt mean squat since 1)this couldve been about that A-M Cannon that Flash destroyed or even that Solar Converter, and 2) YET AGAIN this story put events out of place w/how they happend in CoIE -proper, and Ive given a good number of reasons why this is so.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I wasn't talking about Spidey matching Galactus's power, I was talking about Spidey saying that Sentry fought Galactus to a standstill. So do you accept the feat or not?

well, DUH. neither was *I*.

but my comment still stands.




Tazer

Yo.

Originally posted by darthgoober
When?

theres an ish of FF where they (them + Elvis) were trying to stop Galactus from eating a planet (think it was Earth), and in the process the removed ALL of the Power Cosmic from him....turning him back into Galan.




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



which doesnt mean squat since 1)this couldve been about that A-M Cannon that Flash destroyed or even that Solar Converter, and 2) YET AGAIN this story put events out of place w/how they happend in CoIE -proper, and Ive given a good number of reasons why this is so.
They were talking about the Antimatter Wave, which was what the heroes were there to stop(the Antimatter Cannon hadn't even been built yet). And the 52 arc portrays things in a slightly different manner than COIE also, does that mean that the arc in non canon?



Originally posted by Tazer
well, DUH. neither was *I*.

but my comment still stands.




Tazer
Do you accept Sentry as being as powerful as Galactus or not?

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



theres an ish of FF where they (them + Elvis) were trying to stop Galactus from eating a planet (think it was Earth), and in the process the removed ALL of the Power Cosmic from him....turning him back into Galan.




Tazer
So then they must have had a plot device, seeing as how NONE of the FF have the innate ability to drain away the Power Cosmic. That's hardly fighting him to a standstill.

Yo.

Originally posted by darthgoober
They were talking about the Antimatter Wave, which was what the heroes were there to stop(the Antimatter Cannon hadn't even been built yet). And the 52 arc portrays things in a slightly different manner than COIE also, does that mean that the arc in non canon?

how do we know that?? since this story retcon'd stuff we have no way of knowing just wat "machines" he was talking about, correct? it could just as easily have been that very A-M Cannon which PP was talking about, or even the Solar Collector.

hell, it couldve been that "Time Bomb" that we see him launch, and then NEVER see hide-nor-hair of again.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Do you accept Sentry as being as powerful as Galactus or not?

no. doesnt mean he didnt do wat Spidey said tho.




Tazer

Yo.

Originally posted by darthgoober
So then they must have had a plot device, seeing as how NONE of the FF have the innate ability to drain away the Power Cosmic. That's hardly fighting him to a standstill.

yur right, thats called BEATING HIM, and technically Johnny had the innate ability since he had the PC at the time.

but none of that has anything to do w/them being as powerful as him, now does it?




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



how do we know that?? since this story retcon'd stuff we have no way of knowing just wat "machines" he was talking about, correct? it could just as easily have been that very A-M Cannon which PP was talking about, or even the Solar Collector.

hell, it couldve been that "Time Bomb" that we see him launch, and then NEVER see hide-nor-hair of again.
I know that because I have the damn story and they were trying to stop the Antimatter Wave.



Originally posted by Tazer
no. doesnt mean he didnt do wat Spidey said tho.




Tazer
Well if you are going to credit Sentry with the ability to fight Galactus to a standstill based on Spidey's statement, then our debate is pretty much over because you're going by radically different standards then the rest of the forum which makes a debate between you and I impossible.

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



yur right, thats called BEATING HIM, and technically Johnny had the innate ability since he had the PC at the time.

but none of that has anything to do w/them being as powerful as him, now does it?




Tazer
When we got on this track I said "without a plot device", so your point is moot(seeing as how there was one involved).

Yo.

Originally posted by darthgoober
When we got on this track I said "without a plot device", so your point is moot(seeing as how there was one involved).

like having a plot device somehow negates the feat??

it happend then, and *could be* wat happend here; but we dont know since we havent seen the circumstances behind that comment.




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



thats a load of crap AS WELL AS being an outright lie; I *dare* ya to prove it.

hell, atleast 'goober MAKES his points w/o playing cheerleader and letting others do all the work.




Tazer ur speculating as to the am and cannot concretely prove ur case. the same lgic with the sentry stalemate of galactus u want to apply different logic becuz it suits your argument better. this isnt my argument anyways but looking in on it i favor his points over yours is all. dont get mad at me becuz darthgoober is making his points clearly while it seems u implement a double standard.

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



like having a plot device somehow negates the feat??

it happend then, and *could be* wat happend here; but we dont know since we havent seen the circumstances behind that comment.




Tazer with a plot device that changes any battle entirely. a writer needed one to explain why a certain character beat another. with no plot device it is more of a resounding defeat than with one.

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



like having a plot device somehow negates the feat??

it happend then, and *could be* wat happend here; but we dont know since we havent seen the circumstances behind that comment.




Tazer
And by the same token, AM COULD have destroyed the first universe under his own power, but we don't know because we haven't actually seen the circumstances behind it. There wasn't a plot device specifically mentioned in either case and both cases were only covered in conversation, so both feats(fighting Galactus to a standstill and destroying the universe) are equally valid or invalid. You can't have it both ways.

Yo.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I know that because I have the damn story and they were trying to stop the Antimatter Wave.

which couldve been generated by the A-M Cannon as far as this storys concerned, since its re-telling the tale.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Well if you are going to credit Sentry with the ability to fight Galactus to a standstill based on Spidey's statement, then our debate is pretty much over because you're going by radically different standards then the rest of the forum which makes a debate between you and I impossible.

the only thing we know is that Spidey said he fought Galacus to a standstill, and that could mean ANYTHING. *neither of us* have any information to make any kind of educated opinion about it beyond that single statement.




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



which couldve been generated by the A-M Cannon as far as this storys concerned, since its re-telling the tale.
Now you're just strait up speculating. But let's assume for a minute you're right. Even if the Antimatter Wave was rectoned to come from the Antimatter Cannon, that still means that tech was responsable for the destruction of the Positive Matter Universes, so I fail to see your point.



Originally posted by Tazer
the only thing we know is that Spidey said he fought Galacus to a standstill, and that could mean ANYTHING. *neither of us* have any information to make any kind of educated opinion about it beyond that single statement.




Tazer
And neither of us have any info beyond the fact that AM was responsible for the destruction of Paraih's universe either. Just be cause I say "I killed a bug" doesn't mean that I didn't use bug spray to do it.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Now you're just strait up speculating.




And neither of us have any info beyond the fact that AM was responsible for the destruction of Paraih's universe either. Just be cause I say "I killed a bug" doesn't mean that I didn't use bug spray to do it.

Yo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
ur speculating as to the am and cannot concretely prove ur case.

but I did, and its interesting to note that when I did I didnt see NOT A SINGLE REPLY OR COMMENT from U about it.

same goes for that debate we had about that issue of Quasar that U claimed *was* a IG-xover.....and it wasnt.

Originally posted by quanchi112
the same lgic with the sentry stalemate of galactus u want to apply different logic becuz it suits your argument better.

wat diff logic?? do we know wat he & Galactus fought over, or for how long, or even where?!??

all I said was that the comment shouldnt be dismissed out of hand, even tho "logic" would say that Galactus >>>>>> Sentry.


Originally posted by quanchi112
this isnt my argument anyways but looking in on it i favor his points over yours is all. dont get mad at me becuz darthgoober is making his points clearly while it seems u implement a double standard.

I have no prob w/sum1 favoring sumbody elses side over mine, but U do little more than act like a cheerleader, but then U get mysteriously quiet when information come up that throws a monkey wrench IN said cheering ttempts.




Tazer

Yo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
with a plot device that changes any battle entirely. a writer needed one to explain why a certain character beat another. with no plot device it is more of a resounding defeat than with one.

wtf does it matter if there was a plot device or not??

hell, REED RICHARDS is a walking plot device himself; how many times has he pulled some seen-once-then-never-again device outta his elastic butt??

a win doesnt have to be on the order of Spidey 1-shotting Titannia out of that tower in _SW_ for it to be a victory.




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



but I did, and its interesting to note that when I did I didnt see NOT A SINGLE REPLY OR COMMENT from U about it.

same goes for that debate we had about that issue of Quasar that U claimed *was* a IG-xover.....and it wasnt.



wat diff logic?? do we know wat he & Galactus fought over, or for how long, or even where?!??

all I said was that the comment shouldnt be dismissed out of hand, even tho "logic" would say that Galactus >>>>>> Sentry.




I have no prob w/sum1 favoring sumbody elses side over mine, but U do little more than act like a cheerleader, but then U get mysteriously quiet when information come up that throws a monkey wrench IN said cheering ttempts.




Tazer here you go.
this is thanos conversing with maelstrom as the anomaly like i said.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/quasar24014.jpg

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



wtf does it matter if there was a plot device or not??

hell, REED RICHARDS is a walking plot device himself; how many times has he pulled some seen-once-then-never-again device outta his elastic butt??

a win doesnt have to be on the order of Spidey 1-shotting Titannia out of that tower in _SW_ for it to be a victory.




Tazer ur telling me aplot device doesnt matter.

how doesnt it a plot device can make anything possible. a win with the absence of a plot device carries more weight, much more. this isnt even up for debate.

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



but I did, and its interesting to note that when I did I didnt see NOT A SINGLE REPLY OR COMMENT from U about it.

same goes for that debate we had about that issue of Quasar that U claimed *was* a IG-xover.....and it wasnt.



wat diff logic?? do we know wat he & Galactus fought over, or for how long, or even where?!??

all I said was that the comment shouldnt be dismissed out of hand, even tho "logic" would say that Galactus >>>>>> Sentry.




I have no prob w/sum1 favoring sumbody elses side over mine, but U do little more than act like a cheerleader, but then U get mysteriously quiet when information come up that throws a monkey wrench IN said cheering ttempts.




Tazer i am quiet when i am not here. ask anyone i post away and retort back always. when do i sit back and sit there dumbfounded. if you think i am i am prolly not sitting at my computer at that point in time.

Yo.

Originally posted by darthgoober
And by the same token, AM COULD have destroyed the first universe under his own power, but we don't know because we haven't actually seen the circumstances behind it. There wasn't a plot device specifically mentioned in either case and both cases were only covered in conversation, so both feats(fighting Galactus to a standstill and destroying the universe) are equally valid or invalid. You can't have it both ways.

theres no "could" about it; he DID.

in the complete absense of any proof that he DID use tech to do it, U cannot assume "well he HAD tech, so he still mustve used it to do so."

and the AM-feat is more valid by the fact that theres FAR MORE info given (even pictures along w/it) than simply the single line we get from Spidey for the other feat.




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



theres no "could" about it; he DID.

in the complete absense of any proof that he DID use tech to do it, U cannot assume "well he HAD tech, so he still mustve used it to do so."

and the AM-feat is more valid by the fact that theres FAR MORE info given (even pictures along w/it) than simply the single line we get from Spidey for the other feat.




Tazer
And by you're reasoning, given the absence of proof that there was a plot device involved in Sentry fighting Galactus to a standstill we have to assume that Sentry just matched him strait up power wise, which means that Sentry a fair share more powerful than Supes or even Darkseid.

And I'd like to see a picture of AM destroying Pariah's universe with his own power.

Yo.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Now you're just strait up speculating. But let's assume for a minute you're right. Even if the Antimatter Wave was rectoned to come from the Antimatter Cannon, that still means that tech was responsable for the destruction of the Positive Matter Universes, so I fail to see your point.

well this whole tale is a big retcon, so Y not go with it? since theres no evidence it was in the original, but as a retcon ANYTHINGS possible!

especially since yur using this as evidence over everything that we saw in the CoIE-mini proper.

Originally posted by darthgoober
And neither of us have any info beyond the fact that AM was responsible for the destruction of Paraih's universe either. Just be cause I say "I killed a bug" doesn't mean that I didn't use bug spray to do it.

1) we have no evidence of him having any tech before or during his war w/Monitor; as a matter of fact we just see them blasting at each other apparently across the dimensional divide.

2) we know that both of them were unconscious, but Pariahs am-experiment woke him up, and he converted it into energy, re-focused it back into his realm to gather even MORE energy, and by his own testimony he wasnt freed from his prison UNTIL then.

and its not like he ever leaves the AM-'verse, so I dont see how any1 could think THAT was his prison.




Tazer

Yo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
here you go.
this is thanos conversing with maelstrom as the anomaly like i said.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/quasar24014.jpg

nice. hey tell me, on that ish's cover, did it say "Infinity Gauntlet Crossover"??




Tazer

Yo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
ur telling me aplot device doesnt matter.

how doesnt it a plot device can make anything possible. a win with the absence of a plot device carries more weight, much more. this isnt even up for debate.

ok, so then most of the wins for FF, GL, Quasar, and I dont know HOW MANY other heroes should get thrown out since a good deal of them are attributed to "plot deviceness".

oh, and I guess Spiderman can beat Heralds too......correct, yes??




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



nice. hey tell me, on that ish's cover, did it say "Infinity Gauntlet Crossover"??




Tazer oh so even though he met up with thanos its not a crossover becuz it didnt say it on the cover. they met face to face pretty much and i was right to include him in the ig vs coie debate.

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



ok, so then most of the wins for FF, GL, Quasar, and I dont know HOW MANY other heroes should get thrown out since a good deal of them are attributed to "plot deviceness".

oh, and I guess Spiderman can beat Heralds too......correct, yes??




Tazer when did i say spiderman can beat heralds? u putting words in my mouth again.

here ill make it easy for u to understand. take loebs version of superman defeating darkseid as opposed to apokolips now. in loebs version ww jumped in and superman got sunamped while in apokolips now it was a one on one fight basically with no help and no amps. which fight carries more weight?

Yo.

Originally posted by darthgoober
And by you're reasoning, given the absence of proof that there was a plot device involved in Sentry fighting Galactus to a standstill we have to assume that Sentry just matched him strait up power wise, which means that Sentry a fair share more powerful than Supes or even Darkseid.

Im not saying there was or wasnt a plot device used, cuz I dont know either way.

I, however, wont assume that there WAS 1 used.

Originally posted by darthgoober
And I'd like to see a picture of AM destroying Pariah's universe with his own power.

and Id like to see a picture of the machine that destroyed Pariahs home, or even the 1 that destroyed "Earth-D".




Tazer

Yo.


Originally posted by quanchi112
oh so even though he met up with thanos its not a crossover becuz it didnt say it on the cover. they met face to face pretty much and i was right to include him in the ig vs coie debate.

common sense tells us that if its a xover, then it would be advertised as such.......

and its especially telling that Thanos made had no notice of that gigantic black hole (seeing as he was "omniscient" and all.)




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.




common sense tells us that if its a xover, then it would be advertised as such.......

and its especially telling that Thanos made had no notice of that gigantic black hole (seeing as he was "omniscient" and all.)




Tazer he also wasnt sure if maelstrom survived his blast or not. bad writing over there in my opinion but to not allow this becuz it didnt say crossover is ridicuolus. they met and talked while thanos had the ig. end of discussion he counted as he had a brief discussion wit thanos while he was all ig'd up.

Yo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
when did i say spiderman can beat heralds? u putting words in my mouth again.

Spidey beat Firelord W/O any plot device at all in the story, so I guess according to U thats a valid feat right?

Originally posted by quanchi112
here ill make it easy for u to understand. take loebs version of superman defeating darkseid as opposed to apokolips now. in loebs version ww jumped in and superman got sunamped while in apokolips now it was a one on one fight basically with no help and no amps. which fight carries more weight?

how DS *should be* written is 1 thing, but if theres a consistent effort to keep him at another level....... /shrug




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



Spidey beat Firelord W/O any plot device at all in the story, so I guess according to U thats a valid feat right?



how DS *should be* written is 1 thing, but if theres a consistent effort to keep him at another level....... /shrug




Tazer ur trying to say always and never now. sometimes there is shit writing which is how spiderman defeated firelord. ive never read it and never will. but some things are ridiculous. there are always exceptions so dont hold my thoeries up to the always and never test. that fails with anyones theories for the most part.

as in life and with the english language there are always exceptions.

Yo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
he also wasnt sure if maelstrom survived his blast or not. bad writing over there in my opinion but to not allow this becuz it didnt say crossover is ridicuolus. they met and talked while thanos had the ig. end of discussion he counted as he had a brief discussion wit thanos while he was all ig'd up.

correction: he wasnt sure if he'd even HAD a conversation.

and I supposed Infinity counts for that matchup too, even tho she doesnt show up in _IG_ proper??




Tazer

Yo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
ur trying to say always and never now. sometimes there is shit writing which is how spiderman defeated firelord. ive never read it and never will. but some things are ridiculous. there are always exceptions so dont hold my thoeries up to the always and never test. that fails with anyones theories for the most part.

as in life and with the english language there are always exceptions.

so Spidey beating FL doesnt get the same consideration of "resounding defeat" eh??

how about him beating Titannia?

or him beating Rhino??




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



correction: he wasnt sure if he'd even HAD a conversation.

and I supposed Infinity counts for that matchup too, even tho she doesnt show up in _IG_ proper??




Tazer correction he was sure he had a conversation just not whether he obliterated him or not. must i correct u all night?

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/quasar24015.jpg

i could count infinity but i dont. she has no direct contact with thanos while maelstrom does. since she didnt appear in one of the main books and had no direct contact i never considered her for the ig vs coie debate.

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



so Spidey beating FL doesnt get the same consideration of "resounding defeat" eh??

how about him beating Titannia?

or him beating Rhino??




Tazer ur comparing rhino to firelord?

Come on, how can we compare hyperbole bullshit like Sentry stalemating Galen, to the Am destroying a universe? One is just to ridiculous to take into consideration, the other is quit believable. It's like trying to compare a scientific theory, to a fart joke. It's that absurd.

Originally posted by starking
Come on, how can we compare hyperbole bullshit like Sentry stalemating Galen, to the Am destroying a universe? One is just to ridiculous to take into consideration, the other is quit believable. It's like trying to compare a scientific theory, to a fart joke. It's that absurd.
Why is AM destroying a universe with his own power more believable when he never actually demonstrated that level of power without either tech or a massive upgrade(like absorbing all the energy from the Antimatter Universe)? I mean, there's an equal amount of evidence to support both, and AM's only two combat showings before he absorbed the energy from the Antimatter Universe had him nearly killed by Supergirl and knocked around by his own Thunderers.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Why is AM destroying a universe with his own power more believable when he never actually demonstrated that level of power without either tech or a massive upgrade(like absorbing all the energy from the Antimatter Universe)? I mean, there's an equal amount of evidence to support both, and AM's only two combat showings before he absorbed the energy from the Antimatter Universe had him nearly killed by Supergirl and knocked around by his own Thunderers. Well I'm not sure, but I don't think the biggest threat the Dcu has ever faced, would be that much more powerful just by absorbing his universe. Especially going by his fight with the Monitor. But that's just my take on it, I'm sure there's a much better answer to it.

Originally posted by starking
Well I'm not sure, but I don't think the biggest threat the Dcu has ever faced, would be that much more powerful just by absorbing his universe. Especially going by his fight with the Monitor. But that's just my take on it, I'm sure there's a much better answer to it.
Yes but all you ever actually saw in his fight against the Monitor was the two of them blasting at each other, so that doesn't say much. And he was only a threat to the multiverse because of the Antimatter Wave, and that was the result of tech. So again, why do you so readily accept one over the other?

Originally posted by starking
Well I'm not sure, but I don't think the biggest threat the Dcu has ever faced, would be that much more powerful just by absorbing his universe. Especially going by his fight with the Monitor. But that's just my take on it, I'm sure there's a much better answer to it. what is the biggest threat ever fcaed by the dcu? what is ur opinion on this matter? if u say the coie isnt the biggest threat what is?

Yo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
correction he was sure he had a conversation just not whether he obliterated him or not. must i correct u all night?

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/quasar24015.jpg

i could count infinity but i dont. she has no direct contact with thanos while maelstrom does. since she didnt appear in one of the main books and had no direct contact i never considered her for the ig vs coie debate.

U want a correction? how about this: "but...but....but....it was an IG-crossover!! it said so on the cover!"

does THAT ring any bells??

and that U'll single out a *single* chara simply due to a convo he had, even tho the book CLEARLY wasnt titled "crossover" just shows how far U'll sink to pad an argument.




Tazer

Yo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
ur comparing rhino to firelord?

these R all character who're MORE than a physical match for Spidey, yet he's beatn them all.

hell, Rhino goes head-up against the Hulk fer cryin' out loud.....

so, do any of those count as "resounding defeats" at all?




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



these R all character who're MORE than a physical match for Spidey, yet he's beatn them all.

hell, Rhino goes head-up against the Hulk fer cryin' out loud.....

so, do any of those count as "resounding defeats" at all?


Tazer

Tazer?

Herochat?

Good to se you buddy. You don' reconise me withthe name but you know me.

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



U want a correction? how about this: "but...but....but....it was an IG-crossover!! it said so on the cover!"

does THAT ring any bells??

and that U'll single out a *single* chara simply due to a convo he had, even tho the book CLEARLY wasnt titled "crossover" just shows how far U'll sink to pad an argument.




Tazer i thought it was on the cover. im surprised it wasnt.
but he still had direct contact with thanos in his enhanced state. i was the thread maker so why do u continue to argue with me. would u rather of me said ok lt counts but maelstrom doesnt. i didnt count infinity either. i have given u reasons why i included maelstrom so get over it. i made the thread so i choose, i was fair but im sick of arguing about this. i was correct in including maelstrom whether it said ig crossover or not.

Originally posted by quanchi112
correction he was sure he had a conversation just not whether he obliterated him or not. must i correct u all night?

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/quasar24015.jpg

i could count infinity but i dont. she has no direct contact with thanos while maelstrom does. since she didnt appear in one of the main books and had no direct contact i never considered her for the ig vs coie debate. no response to my correction to ur earlier statement eh tazer?

Yo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
no response to my correction to ur earlier statement eh tazer?

U got me square here, I can admit when Im wrong.




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



U got me square here, I can admit when Im wrong.




Tazer as can i.

Yo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
i thought it was on the cover. im surprised it wasnt.
but he still had direct contact with thanos in his enhanced state. i was the thread maker so why do u continue to argue with me. would u rather of me said ok lt counts but maelstrom doesnt. i didnt count infinity either. i have given u reasons why i included maelstrom so get over it. i made the thread so i choose, i was fair but im sick of arguing about this. i was correct in including maelstrom whether it said ig crossover or not.

I gotta say, I found it funny that U posted that scan faster than U admitted the cover lacked an x-over notice.

and no-one said he didnt have direct contact, but the question posed was whether or not it was an IG-crossover title, and since we see that that is lacking we can say it wasnt.




Tazer

Yo.

Originally posted by TheTick
Tazer?

Herochat?

Good to se you buddy. You don' reconise me withthe name but you know me.

U wouldnt be the guy known for BUNGLING things up, would ya?? ermm




Tazer

Yo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
as can i.

ok, if thats true then how about answering the following:

Originally posted by Tazer
these R all character who're MORE than a physical match for Spidey, yet he's beatn them all.

hell, Rhino goes head-up against the Hulk fer cryin' out loud.....

so, do any of those count as "resounding defeats" at all?




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



ok, if thats true then how about answering the following:






Tazer id have to examine the fights themselves to determine any of this. i cant give u my answer iunles i see the fight in question. in general though defeating a character with no plot device caries more weight than with one discounting absolute pis.

I don't see panels 2-4 ever showing an Antimatter wave being extended directly from Anti-Monitor. Anti-Monitor was heavily dependent on machines when he was supposed to be at the height of his power after so many universes were destroyed. Being at the height of his power, he started using machines and technology all over the place and was smacked around by Supergirl. It makes much more sense that Anti-Monitor used technology from the start when he was supposedly weaker. But I do agree that the alternate Green Lantern in Earth-D is crap. Huge editorial oversight among other things.

I agree with just about everything darthgoober has posited. Although I haven't been following the debate for very long. If I misstated anything, please let me know.

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



since yur basing yur whole stance off of a retcon'd story, we might as well go with the notion that 1 of the 2 devices we saw in the original telling are the culprit.....even tho theres no evidence to show it was so.

becuz in a retcon, ANYTHING can happen!! Jumpy
Well if that's what you want to believe go ahead, if it's true it doesn't change the fact that AM used tech to destroy the positive matter universes, it just changes what tech was used to do it.




Originally posted by Tazer
and when did we 1st see the Thunderers?? was it ish #1, or #8?

and between issues #1 to #7, how much tech did we see??
What difference does it make what issue we first saw the Thunderers in? No matter what issue they first appeared in it was established that they were available since before AM discovered the existence of the Positive Matter Universes.



Originally posted by Tazer
it was Harbinger who said that they were both rendered unconscious from that simultaneous atk, and Pariah was clued in to wat was behind the AM-wave by the Monitor in ish #4 or #5 just b4 he died (and I would think *he* knows.)
Harbinger was also under the impression that Pariah was responsible for the death of his universe, so she wasn't exactly "in the know" about the whole situation. And I remember Monitor talking about saving Pariah, but I don't remember him mentioning any specifics beyond telling Pariah the he(Monitor) was responsible for saving Pariah's life, and explaining their current situation with the Antimatter Wave.




Originally posted by Tazer
but even *after* freeing himself HE NEVER LEFT THE AM-'VERSE except to goto the Creation Point. simply put: the AM *wasnt* trapped the way yur making it out to be.
I never said he wanted to leave, I said that he wanted more to conquer which is pretty much a direct quote from Harbinger.



Originally posted by Tazer
1) since he went to the Creation Point on his own, I dont see how we need to think he needed machines to do so.

2) the Sentry feat is so nebulous as a statement, it couldve played out ANY WAY U WANT at this point, and U have just as much a chance of being right as of being wrong.

3) the ONLY machine thats mentiond (and shown) in regards to Pariahs universe is the contraption he built to look back at the Creation Point. aside from that, there NO OTHER MACHINE EVER mentioned, discussed, or shown in ref to wat the AM did, or EVER to any p-m universe b4 ish #7.
1. He reached the Dawn of Time after absorbing the life energies from the inhabited planets within the Antimatter Universe. What's more, he USED pretty much all that energy just getting there, so it's not nearly the feat you make it out to be.

2. I see Anti Monitor's statement the same way, since there's just as much proof provided for both claims.

3. I don't care what issue the machine's were mentioned in, if they're mentioned it's valid.



Originally posted by Tazer
panels 2 thru 4 of this page show EXACTLY wat yur asking:

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/999/716iw4.th.jpg




Tazer
Those panels show the story from Pariah's point of view, so there's no way they're showing AM destroying Pariah's universe because at the time Pariah thought that HE was the one responsible for his universe's destruction.

Yo.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't see panels 2-4 ever showing an Antimatter wave being extended directly from Anti-Monitor.

in CoIE #10 we find out that the AM turned Pariahs a-m chamber into an energy wave that destroyed his universe and fully freed him from his imprisonment. so in those 3 scans I mentioned does ANY1 see ANY tech anyWHERE as the AM feeds upon the energy of wat was Pariahs universe....since thats EXACTLY wat he's doing there???

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Anti-Monitor was heavily dependent on machines when he was supposed to be at the height of his power after so many universes were destroyed. Being at the height of his power, he started using machines and technology all over the place and was smacked around by Supergirl.

the only machines he was heavily dependent on wouldve been his Solar Collector (to screw w/those universes inside the Monitors Netherverse) and the AM-Cannon (to presumably wipe out those same universes in 1 shot.)

but if U will, plz show us some tech that the AM was "heavily dependent on" b4 his 1st battle in #7

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It makes much more sense that Anti-Monitor used technology from the start when he was supposedly weaker. But I do agree that the alternate Green Lantern in Earth-D is crap. Huge editorial oversight among other things.

I agree with just about everything darthgoober has posited. Although I haven't been following the debate for very long. If I misstated anything, please let me know.

it doesnt make sense that he used given that there nothing to say that he did.; if U can find something w/in CoIE that say otherwise, then plz share.

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



in CoIE #10 we find out that the AM turned Pariahs a-m chamber into an energy wave that destroyed his universe and fully freed him from his imprisonment. so in those 3 scans I mentioned does ANY1 see ANY tech anyWHERE as the AM feeds upon the energy of wat was Pariahs universe....since thats EXACTLY wat he's doing there???Please keep in mind that darthgoober and I asked where it's been seen that Antimonitor extends the antimatter wave from himself. You indicated that those panels were such proof, but they obviously are not.

Originally posted by Tazer
the only machines he was heavily dependent on wouldve been his Solar Collector (to screw w/those universes inside the Monitors Netherverse) and the AM-Cannon (to presumably wipe out those same universes in 1 shot.)

but if U will, plz show us some tech that the AM was "heavily dependent on" b4 his 1st battle in #7



it doesnt make sense that he used given that there nothing to say that he did.; if U can find something w/in CoIE that say otherwise, then plz share. And given that there is nothing to show that the antimatter waves were generated from his very being, by your logic it's even weaker to suppose that's how it happened. Especially since he was so dependent on tech later on. And when he got pwned by Supergirl...

Yo.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Please keep in mind that darthgoober and I asked where it's been seen that Antimonitor extends the antimatter wave from himself. You indicated that those panels were such proof, but they obviously are not.

and I showed U where the AM is feeding on the energies of Pariahs universe right after its been converted AND after he'd been freed; if we know (by AMs testimony) that he didnt fully free himself when he was awoken until AFTER he'd fed....how could he possibly have used tech in that condition???

and more to the point: show us ONE INSTANCE of there being an A-wave machine being mentioned or shown in the entire mini. the only instances of him needing tech for something big occur ONLY after the Mon shifts Earths 1 & 2 into protective custody w/his death.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And given that there is nothing to show that the antimatter waves were generated from his very being, by your logic it's even weaker to suppose that's how it happened. Especially since he was so dependent on tech later on. And when he got pwned by Supergirl...

the only weak logic is the 1 that assumes the A-wave was generated by tech, when theres not 1 shred of evidence to support that claim, yet refutes the notion that he did it himself when we see that he 1) doesnt need weapons to atk/destroy things not even in his own universe, and 2) see that he can absorb the sum total of a universe after its been converted into energy.




Tazer