Cyborg Superman vs. Silver Surfer

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batdude123
No prep. The fight takes place inside the Fortress of Solitude.

Who wins this epic battle?

masterbruce
given the battlefield, Surfer takes it imo

Avlon
Classic Henshaw or current Henshaw with 8 yellow rings?

batdude123
He's formidable enough without the rings.

Avlon
Originally posted by batdude123
He's formidable enough without the rings.

Agreed. Putting him inside the fortress of solitude is overkill though, Henshaw would curbstomp SS with that type of tech everywhere.

A fight in space would probably be a lot more fair.

darthgoober
I don't see the tech as being that big of an issue. A depowered Surfer's canceled out every machine on Earth before, so it likely won't remain functional that long. Also, I never saw Henshaw with any kind of resistance to K-Note(though there may be instances that I'm unaware of) so Henshaw won't fair as well as Supes in that department.

Avlon
Originally posted by darthgoober
I don't see the tech as being that big of an issue. A depowered Surfer's canceled out every machine on Earth before, so it likely won't remain functional that long. Also, I never saw Henshaw with any kind of resistance to K-Note(though there may be instances that I'm unaware of) so Henshaw won't fair as well as Supes in that department.

Tech has been a problem for SS and that was Earth's tech, not kryptonian tech...

The fortress has tech and devices from all sorts of advanced cultures and even multiversal knowledge.

It's absolutely not fair to Surfer.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Avlon
Tech has been a problem for SS and that was Earth's tech, not kryptonian tech...
And what do we call that when people don't use the powers that are readily available to them to make less powerful people a threat? Don't we have a specific classification for that...

Originally posted by Avlon
The fortress has tech and devices from all sorts of advanced cultures and even multiversal knowledge.

It's absolutely not fair to Surfer.
The tech that Surfer's manipulated includes the tech of Galactus, the Ovoids, the Microverse, and the tech of Reed and Doom, so I fail to see why you consider Surfer to be screwed here.

masterbruce
Originally posted by Avlon
Tech has been a problem for SS and that was Earth's tech, not kryptonian tech...

The fortress has tech and devices from all sorts of advanced cultures and even multiversal knowledge.

It's absolutely not fair to Surfer.

I'm thinking Surfer unleashes an omnidirectional blast that wipes out the whole Fortress, and then he deals with Henshaw mano a mano.

Avlon
Originally posted by darthgoober
And what do we call that when people don't use the powers that are readily available to them to make less powerful people a threat? Don't we have a specific classification for that...

Even though it's happened quite often?

Funny...looks like tech to me...

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5551/silversurfer198902412bd1.th.jpg

Originally posted by darthgoober
The tech that Surfer's manipulated includes the tech of Galactus, the Ovoids, the Microverse, and the tech of Reed and Doom, so I fail to see why you consider Surfer to be screwed here.

Reed, Doom, and Galactus tech have all taken out Surfer as well.

And then there are tech weapons such as these..

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/6708/silversurfer199712415peuj9.th.jpg

Avlon
Originally posted by masterbruce
I'm thinking Surfer unleashes an omnidirectional blast that wipes out the whole Fortress, and then he deals with Henshaw mano a mano.

The current fortress can rebuild in seconds using sunstone.

It's pretty much back to precrisis type tech.

Henshaw could easily put SS in the phantom zone powerless.

It's a lot more fair in space AWAY from tech.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Avlon
Even though it's happened quite often?

Funny...looks like tech to me...

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5551/silversurfer198902412bd1.th.jpg



Reed, Doom, and Galactus tech have all taken out Surfer as well.

And then there are tech weapons such as these..

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/6708/silversurfer199712415peuj9.th.jpg


It doesn't matter how often it happens, unless you want to start considering people with NO superspeed to be a threat to guys like Superman(who gets tagged plenty). If you want to get into a scan contest, I guarantee I can find more instances of Surfer easily dealing with tech than you can find of him going down to it.

Avlon
Originally posted by darthgoober
It doesn't matter how often it happens, unless you want to start considering people with NO superspeed to be a threat to guys like Superman(who gets tagged plenty). If you want to get into a scan contest, I guarantee I can find more instances of Surfer easily dealing with tech than you can find of him going down to it.

It wouldn't make him any less vulnerable to it...check with Black Panther for a recent example.

And disregarding every example with "it doesn't matter" sounds a tad fanboyish.

masterbruce
Originally posted by Avlon
The current fortress can rebuild in seconds using sunstone.



if that's the case, then I agree Surfer's screwed.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Avlon
It wouldn't make him any less vulnerable to it...check with Black Panther for a recent example.

I didn't say he'd be less vulnerable to it, I said that it wouldn't be that big of an issue and in a no PIS setting it won't be. Surfer has far more instances of dealing with tech than being taken out by it.


Originally posted by Avlon
And disregarding every example with "it doesn't matter" sounds a tad fanboyish.
So all the instances of Supes being tagged by people without a significant level of superspeed are viable evidence then?

Avlon
Originally posted by masterbruce
if that's the case, then I agree Surfer's screwed.

The recent fortress was created in seconds from Superman tossing a shard of sunstone into the antarctic ice.

It even had a map of the multiverse in a piece the size of an iphone.

Avlon
Originally posted by darthgoober
I didn't say he'd be less vulnerable to it, I said that it wouldn't be that big of an issue and in a no PIS setting it won't be. Surfer has far more instances of dealing with tech than being taken out by it.


Even when said tech is specifically made to absorb or stop power cosmic?

Originally posted by darthgoober
So all the instances of Supes being tagged by people without a significant level of superspeed are viable evidence then?

Sure, if you want to do the same for Surfer...who already struggles with speed off his board and not traveling.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Avlon
Even when said tech is specifically made to absorb or stop power cosmic?
Yes actually. That scan you showed with the devices on Surfer, those were specifically designed to drain Surfer. And he overloaded them and then nullified the tech of the guy who put them on him in the first place.



Originally posted by Avlon
Sure, if you want to do the same for Surfer...who already struggles with speed off his board and not traveling.
I'm pretty sure it's going to hurt Supes more than Surfer. The MAJORITY of Supes wins here on the forum are due to his speed. The majority of Surfer's wins are due to his versatility and overall power. Hell, why would he be off his board in a forum fight anyway?

Avlon
Originally posted by darthgoober
Yes actually. That scan you showed with the devices on Surfer, those were specifically designed to drain Surfer. And he overloaded them and then nullified the tech of the guy who put them on him in the first place.

He was recently drained by Black Panther, and was completely helpless against that tech "pac-man."

1 shot to the phantom zone would end this fight quickly among other ways. SS isn't getting out of that one.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm pretty sure it's going to hurt Supes more than Surfer. The MAJORITY of Supes wins here on the forum are due to his speed. The majority of Surfer's wins are due to his versatility and overall power. Hell, why would he be off his board in a forum fight anyway?

Actually, I would wager the opposite.

And, considering that this is Henshaw and not Superman...and that Henshaw is WAY more versatile, I don't see how that matters.

P.S. Surfer has been knocked off his board many times.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Avlon
He was recently drained by Black Panther, and was completely helpless against that tech "pac-man."
And how many times has Supes been tagged by people with sub light speed...

Originally posted by Avlon
1 shot to the phantom zone would end this fight quickly among other ways. SS isn't getting out of that one.
Just like he couldn't get out of the Soul World right?



Originally posted by Avlon
Actually, I would wager the opposite.

And, considering that this is Henshaw and not Superman...and that Henshaw is WAY more versatile, I don't see how that matters.

That's right it's Henshaw not Supes, so what kind of resistance has Cyborg shown to K-nite? And it matters because you're trying to limit Surfer by saying that he's f*cked as far as tech goes based on a couple of PIS moments, but at the same time you act like guys with sub light speeds can't touch Supes in a forum fight despite the fact that he's been tagged FAR more times than Surfer's gone down to tech.

Originally posted by Avlon
P.S. Surfer has been knocked off his board many times.
But luckily enough his opponents would have to knock him off first. Supes would just start off at a BS speed.

King Kandy
I just want to point out that Thanos's floating Chair made a total fool out of Surfer, and that was tech.

Avlon
Originally posted by darthgoober
And how many times has Supes been tagged by people with sub light speed...

How many times has Surfer been tagged? That's right..many.


Originally posted by darthgoober
Just like he couldn't get out of the Soul World right?

Do you really want to bring up that thread? It was pretty embarrassing on your behalf.

Especially since SS wouldnt have ANY powers in the zone.

Originally posted by darthgoober
That's right it's Henshaw not Supes, so what kind of resistance has Cyborg shown to K-nite? And it matters because you're trying to limit Surfer by saying that he's f*cked as far as tech goes based on a couple of PIS moments, but at the same time you act like guys with sub light speeds can't touch Supes in a forum fight despite the fact that he's been tagged FAR more times than Surfer's gone down to tech.

Nope, all that matter is that you are trying to deflect the debate.
You do know that Henshaw doesn't even need a body right? Or that he can be in different bodies simultaneously?

In this environment, Surfer is screwed. He can be drained, zoned, gassed, ko'd..etc.

Originally posted by darthgoober
But luckily enough his opponents would have to knock him off first. Supes would just start off at a BS speed.

Opponents nowhere near Superman's speed have tagged SS.

Then again, this is henshaw, not Superman...and he has a LOT more options...especially in this environment.

TricksterPriest
I can't even see how this is an arguement. How is Surfer's control over tech better than Henshaw's? Henshaw was controlling Oan, Manhunter, New Gods, Kryptonian and The Source Wall . shock I wouldn't give Surfer a prayer of ever doing that.

With that established, Surfer is basically ****ed. K-nite may work, but it may not. Cyborg has had quite a few reactions to it. But like Avlon said, what does it matter? In an enviroment like this, there are a million ways for Henshaw to win.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Avlon
How many times has Surfer been tagged? That's right..many.
And have you ever heard me claim that Surfer's speed was to much for anyone to handle? I can almost guarantee that you haven't because I never base a victory off of that kind of thing.




Originally posted by Avlon
Do you really want to bring up that thread? It was pretty embarrassing on your behalf.

Especially since SS wouldnt have ANY powers in the zone.
I don't know why it was embarrassing for me, I brought up several pieces of evidence to show that Surfer could jump dimensions with ease and at will, and the only thing brought forth to counter it was the time he was being held by an Eternity level entity.

And I don't know why you're so sure that Surfer would be powerless, SBP certainly wasn't.



Originally posted by Avlon
Nope, all that matter is that you are trying to deflect the debate.
You do know that Henshaw doesn't even need a body right? Or that he can be in different bodies simultaneously?

In this environment, Surfer is screwed. He can be drained, zoned, gassed, ko'd..etc.
If you'd rather save face by focusing on Henshaw rather than your double standard regarding Supes that's fine, I'll just remember and post this thread the next time I hear you talking about Supes superior speed over his opponent.

Anyway Supes aside, Surfer wins via K-Nite blast.



Originally posted by Avlon
Opponents nowhere near Superman's speed have tagged SS.

Then again, this is henshaw, not Superman.
Again, I almost never comment on Surfer's speed being the deciding factor, Supes fans on the other hand...

darthgoober
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I can't even see how this is an arguement. How is Surfer's control over tech better than Henshaw's? Henshaw was controlling Oan, Manhunter, New Gods, Kryptonian and The Source Wall . shock I wouldn't give Surfer a prayer of ever doing that.

With that established, Surfer is basically ****ed. K-nite may work, but it may not. Cyborg has had quite a few reactions to it. But like Avlon said, what does it matter? In an enviroment like this, there are a million ways for Henshaw to win.
I never said that Surfer's control was greater, just that he doesn't have a problem with it in most instances.

Avlon
Originally posted by darthgoober
And have you ever heard me claim that Surfer's speed was to much for anyone to handle? I can almost guarantee that you haven't because I never base a victory off of that kind of thing.

You brought up the speed thing for Superman, not I. Strange considering we're debating Henshaw.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I don't know why it was embarrassing for me, I brought up several pieces of evidence to show that Surfer could jump dimensions with ease and at will, and the only thing brought forth to counter it was the time he was being held by an Eternity level entity.

Which were all countered by multiple people or had little or nothing to do with what was being debated.

Originally posted by darthgoober
And I don't know why you're so sure that Surfer would be powerless, SBP certainly wasn't.

Perhaps because that is what the zone does? Why are you comparing SBP (the guy who changes time and history with his fists) to Surfer anyway?


Originally posted by darthgoober
If you'd rather save face by focusing on Henshaw rather than your double standard regarding Supes that's fine, I'll just remember and post this thread the next time I hear you talking about Supes superior speed over his opponent.

Anyway Supes aside, Surfer wins via K-Nite blast.

Feel free. I'll happily do the same in your SS threads.

Anyway... SS gets wtf pwned by henshaw under these circumstances.

Especially if he's contained in a field which negates him from absorbing cosmic energy, he's drained of cosmic power, zoned, physically ko'd, z-gassed, or hit with arsenide.


Originally posted by darthgoober
Again, I almost never comment on Surfer's speed being the deciding factor, Supes fans on the other hand...

Unlike Surfer, Superman has plenty of speed feats without the use of a board.

But then again, we're on the subject of Henshaw...not standard Superman.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Avlon
You brought up the speed thing for Superman, not I. Strange considering we're debating Henshaw.
I brought up Supes speed because you were trying to justify a weakness to tech for Surfer based of a couple of showings, when there's a far greater number of showings where Supes gets tagged that you refuse to accept.

Originally posted by Avlon
Which were all countered by multiple people or had little or nothing to do with what was being debated.
NONE of them were countered. The only thing that was put forth was the time he was being held in another universe by that universes version of Eternity.

Originally posted by Avlon
Perhaps because that is what the zone does? Why are you comparing SBP (the guy who changes time and history with his fists) to Surfer anyway?
It obviously doesn't do it ALL the time, because it didn't do it to SBP.

Originally posted by Avlon
Feel free. I'll happily do the same in your SS threads.
Go right ahead. I try to apply the same standards of judgement concerning characters powers to everyone(even Surfer), so I don't see it being that much of a bother.

Originally posted by Avlon
Anyway... SS gets wtf pwned by henshaw under these circumstances.

Especially if he's contained in a field which negates him from absorbing cosmic energy, he's drained of cosmic power, zoned, physically ko'd, z-gassed, or hit with arsenide.
Of course he does, if you want to ignore the majority of his showings dealing with tech in favor of the handful were he goes down to it.

But even if we choose to cater to the double standard and consider tech to by SS's bane, I still see Hank going down to K-nite before he whips up any of the stuff you listed.




Originally posted by Avlon
Unlike Surfer, Superman has plenty of speed feats without the use of a board.
Unlike Surfer, Supes doesn't have a board. Surfer's got a lot more speed feats on a surf board than Supes does wink .

Originally posted by Avlon
But then again, we're on the subject of Henshaw...not standard Superman.
So what uber speed feats does Henshaw have?

Avlon
Originally posted by darthgoober
I brought up Supes speed because you were trying to justify a weakness to tech for Surfer based of a couple of showings, when there's a far greater number of showings where Supes gets tagged that you refuse to accept.

Apples and oranges...then again.. I'm sure nobody is surprised.
Again you are the one bringing up speed...not me.

Originally posted by darthgoober
NONE of them were countered. The only thing that was put forth was the time he was being held in another universe by that universes version of Eternity.

Feel free to dig up the thread then. We could all use a hearty laugh at your expense.

Originally posted by darthgoober
It obviously doesn't do it ALL the time, because it didn't do it to SBP.

Again, SS and Sbp are 2 totally different characters. You're out on a limb here...especially considering how the zone works.

He'd be a phantom like wraith with no powers.

Sbp retconned history of a universe with simple punches. There is no comparison.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Go right ahead. I try to apply the same standards of judgement concerning characters powers to everyone(even Surfer), so I don't see it being that much of a bother.

As do I. Matter of fact, you're so sore about this that you went ahead and whined about it in another thread.

You're trying to limit henshaw even in an environment where he has a huge advantage.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Of course he does, if you want to ignore the majority of his showings dealing with tech in favor of the handful were he goes down to it.

But even if we choose to cater to the double standard and consider tech to by SS's bane, I still see Hank going down to K-nite before he whips up any of the stuff you listed.

No, you're the one who wants to disregard what's not convenient...since there are many examples of SS going down to tech. Thanos is a good example too.

You're going out on a limb...but continue if you want.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Unlike Surfer, Supes doesn't have a board. Surfer's got a lot more speed feats on a surf board than Supes does wink .

Traveling, he sure does... fighting is a different story... and he's had decades to prove so.. wink


Originally posted by darthgoober
So what uber speed feats does Henshaw have?

What part of I haven't brought up speed (since it's not needed in this fight) don't you get? Henshaw is a whole fortress, not a single body.

This reeks of SS fanboyism.

batdude123
I really don't see why it's out of the question for Surfer to lose to (what is in effect) a sentient fortress of extremely advanced Kryptonian technology overwhelming him.

I mean, he's certainly been defeated by less...

Avlon
Simple...his pride won't let him.

For all intents and purposes, this thread is over...he'll probably come back with some unrelated stuff or try to divert which is his usual tactic.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Avlon
Apples and oranges...then again.. I'm sure nobody is surprised.
Again you are the one bringing up speed...not me.
And I just explained why.



Originally posted by Avlon
Feel free to dig up the thread then. We could all use a hearty laugh at your expense.
Why would I do that? I already made my points and no one was able to refute them. The closest thing to it came from leo, and he brought up the time Surfer was held in another universe by another version of Eternity.



Originally posted by Avlon
Again, SS and Sbp are 2 totally different characters. You're out on a limb here...especially considering how the zone works.

He'd be a phantom like wraith with no powers.

Sbp retconned history of a universe with simple punches. There is no comparison.
Well the Phantom Zone obviously doesn't work the same way on EVERYONE, because SBP still retained his abilities(and evidently his body). The Soul World typically robs people of their standard abilities too, but Surfer kept his powers when he was there and managed to escape.



Originally posted by Avlon
As do I. Matter of fact, you're so sore about this that you went ahead and whined about it in another thread.

You're trying to limit henshaw even in an environment where he has a huge advantage.
I didn't whine about anything. He was talking about double standards so I pointed out that I can relate. I'm no more upset about this than I would be if xmeat came back spewing a bunch of BS about the Hulk.

And I'm not trying to limit Henshaw, I just don't think he'll be as effective as you believe and I don't see him as being anything the Surfer can't deal with because of his track record against tech(where the good showing far outweigh the bad showings), and the fact that he has access to K-nite and red sun radiation.



Originally posted by Avlon
No, you're the one who wants to disregard what's not convenient...since there are many examples of SS going down to tech. Thanos is a good example too.

You're going out on a limb...but continue if you want.
My disregarding what you're saying has nothing to do with convenience, it has to do with the fact that Surfer's good showings against tech far outweigh the bad. Again if you'd like to have a scan battle to see if Surfer's good showings outweigh the bad I have no problem doing that.



Originally posted by Avlon
Traveling, he sure does... fighting is a different story... and he's had decades to prove so.. wink
Really? How many fights has Supes have on the back of a surf board laughing .




Originally posted by Avlon
What part of I haven't brought up speed (since it's not needed in this fight) don't you get? Henshaw is a whole fortress, not a single body.
And Surfer has dealt with that kind of thing before, so I fail to see your point.

Originally posted by Avlon
This reeks of SS fanboyism.
Yeah...I'm basing my opinion off of logic and the majority of Surfer's showings(and didn't cast an actual verdict until I made sure about Henshaw's resistance to k-nite and red sun radiation) and I'M the one that's being a fanboy. laughing

darthgoober
Originally posted by batdude123
I really don't see why it's out of the question for Surfer to lose to (what is in effect) a sentient fortress of extremely advanced Kryptonian technology overwhelming him.

I mean, he's certainly been defeated by less...
I NEVER said that it's out of the question for Surfer to lose. People were acting like SS didn't have a chance because of the location so I pointed out that it's hardly as clear cut as that. In fact I didn't even make a prediction until I found out that Henshaw lacks Supes resistance to K-nite.

batdude123
Originally posted by darthgoober
I NEVER said that it's out of the question for Surfer to lose. People were acting like SS didn't have a chance because of the location so I pointed out that it's hardly as clear cut as that. In fact I didn't even make a prediction until I found out that Henshaw lacks Supes resistance to K-nite.

So... Norrin is going to blast Hank's consciousness with kryptonite? confused

darthgoober
Originally posted by batdude123
So... Norrin is going to blast Hank's consciousness with kryptonite? confused
I assumed that he started the fight in an actual body.

batdude123
Originally posted by darthgoober
I assumed that he started the fight in an actual body.

Yes. But which do you think would happen first? Hank transferring consciousness, or Surfer calculating and analyzing Hank's weakness via cosmic awareness and then blasting him with said weakness? Me thinks the former.

Charlotte DeBel
Henshaw is a cyborg, so it's safe to assume that he wouldn't be completely f*cked by K-nite. Also he's probably the best technopath in DC universe.
Speedblitz is boring and overused sometimes, that's it. But Surfer's transmutation ability sometimes used in the same boring way here on KMC.

Avlon
Originally posted by darthgoober
And I just explained why.

And it was apples and oranges.


Originally posted by darthgoober
Why would I do that? I already made my points and no one was able to refute them. The closest thing to it came from leo, and he brought up the time Surfer was held in another universe by another version of Eternity.

Imaginative drivel. Especially when the whole story isn't told.


Originally posted by darthgoober
Well the Phantom Zone obviously doesn't work the same way on EVERYONE, because SBP still retained his abilities(and evidently his body). The Soul World typically robs people of their standard abilities too, but Surfer kept his powers when he was there and managed to escape.

More apples and oranges. SBP = changed reality itself with his fists. He's been shown on panel to do this to the zone.

Surfer = a powerless phantom like everyone else. Especially post IC.

At the same time, Kryptonite doesn't affect everyone the same either...maybe kryptonite kills heralds. Let's go by your debating tactics.


Originally posted by darthgoober
I didn't whine about anything. He was talking about double standards so I pointed out that I can relate. I'm no more upset about this than I would be if xmeat came back spewing a bunch of BS about the Hulk.

Yes..you felt the need to try and low blow.

Originally posted by darthgoober
And I'm not trying to limit Henshaw, I just don't think he'll be as effective as you believe and I don't see him as being anything the Surfer can't deal with because of his track record against tech(where the good showing far outweigh the bad showings), and the fact that he has access to K-nite and red sun radiation.

I'm not trying to limit SS either... but the advantage is definitely on Henshaws behalf here if you consider his powerset as well...especially if how you say..no PIS is involved.


Originally posted by darthgoober
My disregarding what you're saying has nothing to do with convenience, it has to do with the fact that Surfer's good showings against tech far outweigh the bad. Again if you'd like to have a scan battle to see if Surfer's good showings outweigh the bad I have no problem doing that.

Your disregarding it is plenty convenient.

I can show lots of scans of SS taking beatdowns because of his personality too.

Are those all PIS too?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Really? How many fights has Supes have on the back of a surf board laughing .

How many times are you going to try and grind something this moot? laughing
Superman isn't in this thread.


Originally posted by darthgoober
And Surfer has dealt with that kind of thing before, so I fail to see your point.

And he's fallen to it many a times...weakened to the point where a human beat him.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah...I'm basing my opinion off of logic and the majority of Surfer's showings(and didn't cast an actual verdict until I made sure about Henshaw's resistance to k-nite and red sun radiation) and I'M the one that's being a fanboy. laughing

Then your logic is highly flawed. I don't understand what issue you are having understanding that SS is battling a foe in his place of power and one that hampers him.

And yes...it's very fanboyish on your part. Do you think SS would override Thanos tech?

darthgoober
Originally posted by batdude123
Yes. But which do you think would happen first? Hank transferring consciousness, or Surfer calculating and analyzing Hank's weakness via cosmic awareness and then blasting him with said weakness? Me thinks the former.
Does he normally transfer his consciousness in the opening moments of a fight? Hell DID he alter his form in the opening of their fight(not canon for power gauging of course, but IMO an accurate portrayal of their personality).

Avlon
Originally posted by darthgoober
In fact I didn't even make a prediction until I found out that Henshaw lacks Supes resistance to K-nite.

Henshaw is actually MORE resistant to kryptonite than Clark...and that's in a standard kryptonian form.

Avlon
Originally posted by darthgoober
Does he normally transfer his consciousness in the opening moments of a fight? Hell DID he alter his form in the opening of their fight(not canon for power gauging of course, but IMO an accurate portrayal of their personality).

Aren't you trying to debate PIS?

So Surfer can scan and try to use Kryptonite, but Henshaw can't do the same to Surfer for his weaknesses or do something he's done before which is become the environment?

I smell double standard.

Avlon
Originally posted by darthgoober
Does he normally transfer his consciousness in the opening moments of a fight? Hell DID he alter his form in the opening of their fight(not canon for power gauging of course, but IMO an accurate portrayal of their personality).

In that battle they stalemated...and Henshaw and SS were their standard selves.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Avlon
Henshaw is actually MORE resistant to kryptonite than Clark...and that's in a standard kryptonian form.
Well see now you didn't say that. If you had just told me that when I first posted( where I asked in fact) we might not even be having this conversation. How's his resistance to red sun radiation? And what's his big feat as far as K-nite resistance goes?

Originally posted by Avlon
Aren't you trying to debate PIS?

So Surfer can scan and try to use Kryptonite, but Henshaw can't do the same to Surfer for his weaknesses or do something he's done before which is become the environment?

I smell double standard.
I didn't say that Henshaw couldn't scan Surfer for weaknesses if it's in character for him to do so. And I didn't suggest that he wouldn't shift his consciousness, it just doesn't seem like would do it right off the back. Of course now that I think about it, he'd know that it was in Surfer's powers to put him down so he might do just that. Hmm....I need to think about this now.

Avlon
Originally posted by darthgoober
Well see now you didn't say that. If you had just told me that when I first posted( where I asked in fact) we might not even be having this conversation. How's his resistance to red sun radiation? And what's his big feat as far as K-nite resistance goes?

Honestly, in the mindset you seemed to have, I doubt you would have listened.
Henshaw stood directly in front of a meteor made of kryptonite and while it was deadly to Superman, it only weaknened him. The red sun thing has never been discussed or shown. Seeing as how much resistance standard Supes has to K radiation, it would be much much harder to take out borg with it...and that's only if Borg stays in pure kryptonian form. He has and can alter his form and transfer his mind at will.

Needless to say, in a standard vs match, they both have access to exploitable weaknesses on each other. It's a totally different battle than Superman vs Surfer.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I didn't say that Henshaw couldn't scan Surfer for weaknesses if it's in character for him to do so. And I didn't suggest that he wouldn't shift his consciousness, it just doesn't seem like would do it right off the back. Of course now that I think about it, he'd know that it was in Surfer's powers to put him down so he might do just that. Hmm....I need to think about this now.

Both have different ways of accomplishing the same things. In this scan he tells the Eradicator that he can make a weapon suited to each character he fights. Considering he was fighting 4 Super clones simultaneously, it's safe to say he can do it on the fly.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/avalonofthewind/Beatdown3.jpg

One day I'll sit and do a respect thread for the guy...he's got some nice feats under his belt.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Avlon
Honestly, in the mindset you seemed to have, I doubt you would have listened.

The mindset I was in? Don't act like I'm the one who made this into a big thing. Do even remember how this started?

Right out of the gate you just pronounced that Henshaw stomped Surfer because of the tech available in the fortress...
Originally posted by Avlon
Agreed. Putting him inside the fortress of solitude is overkill though, Henshaw would curbstomp SS with that type of tech everywhere.

A fight in space would probably be a lot more fair.

So I pointed out that Surfer has a significant ability to cancel out machinery, and brought up that I was unaware of any k-nite resistance he had which seemed to be a viable tactic at the time...
Originally posted by darthgoober
I don't see the tech as being that big of an issue. A depowered Surfer's canceled out every machine on Earth before, so it likely won't remain functional that long. Also, I never saw Henshaw with any kind of resistance to K-Note(though there may be instances that I'm unaware of) so Henshaw won't fair as well as Supes in that department.


So you brought up the variety of tech in the fortress and implied that Surfer's bad showings against tech were numerous, when the opposite is actually true(he's got a few bad ones, but a far greater number of good showings)...
Originally posted by Avlon
Tech has been a problem for SS and that was Earth's tech, not kryptonian tech...

The fortress has tech and devices from all sorts of advanced cultures and even multiversal knowledge.

It's absolutely not fair to Surfer.

So I pointed out that Surfer's falling to tech is normally no more than PIS and listed the variety of tech that Surfer has dealt with since the variety of tech available seemed to be like a big deal to you...
Originally posted by darthgoober
And what do we call that when people don't use the powers that are readily available to them to make less powerful people a threat? Don't we have a specific classification for that...


The tech that Surfer's manipulated includes the tech of Galactus, the Ovoids, the Microverse, and the tech of Reed and Doom, so I fail to see why you consider Surfer to be screwed here.

Then you brought up a couple of the low showings...
Originally posted by Avlon
Even though it's happened quite often?

Funny...looks like tech to me...

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5551/silversurfer198902412bd1.th.jpg



Reed, Doom, and Galactus tech have all taken out Surfer as well.

And then there are tech weapons such as these..

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/6708/silversurfer199712415peuj9.th.jpg

So I brought up Superman(who I know your a fan of) because he also has plenty of instances of NOT using the powers that are available to him because I figured you could see the comparison there. I even suggested that we weight the good scans against the bad and see which was more numerous to convince you,..
Originally posted by darthgoober
It doesn't matter how often it happens, unless you want to start considering people with NO superspeed to be a threat to guys like Superman(who gets tagged plenty). If you want to get into a scan contest, I guarantee I can find more instances of Surfer easily dealing with tech than you can find of him going down to it.

So you brought up ANOTHER low showing, and said that I was being "fanboyish"...
Originally posted by Avlon
It wouldn't make him any less vulnerable to it...check with Black Panther for a recent example.

And disregarding every example with "it doesn't matter" sounds a tad fanboyish.

So don't act like I'm the one that came looking for trouble here. You never addressed the k-nite issue and all you did was cling to Surfer's low showings to support your case. If you had actually contributed to the conversation this whole thing would have been different.

Avlon
Originally posted by darthgoober
The mindset I was in? Don't act like I'm the one who made this into a big thing.

You did. So do you want to keep going with that or did you want me to answer your questions?

If that is how you are going to act when I step off the debate to a more neutral ground, let me know. I won't bother with the rest of that post since anyone can read the last few pages and can make up their own mind.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Avlon
You did. So do you want to keep going with that or did you want me to answer your questions?

If that is how you are going to act when I step off the debate to a more neutral ground, let me know. I won't bother with the rest of that post since anyone can read the last few pages and can make up their own mind.
The Hell I did(which anyone who can read can see). But if you finally feel like it then sure, answer the questions.

Avlon
Originally posted by darthgoober
The Hell I did(which anyone who can read can see). But if you finally feel like it then sure, answer the questions.

I'm not worried about you Surfer fanboy. stick out tongue

Seriously though, I answered your questions about kryptonite and the red sun radiation is an unknown variable.

Was there another question I missed?

darthgoober
Originally posted by Avlon
I'm not worried about you Surfer fanboy. stick out tongue

Seriously though, I answered your questions about kryptonite and the red sun radiation is an unknown variable.

Was there another question I missed?
The transmutation thing, but that may have been brought up on another thread now that I think about it. Does Henshaw have the ability to create things out of thing air?

Mindship
Personally, I've never liked to regard the Surfer as someone who always wins, no matter what situation you put him in--though he may, May, have the power and versatility to handle (to some extent) nearly every situation.

There's just no fun in an indomitable character.

That said, I think Cyborg wins because of the home advantage, but I don't think it would be a curbstomp.

Newjak
Quick question.

What prevents Surfer from changing the entire Fortress from Advanced Krptonian tech to nothing but sand?

Because there really doesn't seem to be any reason at all and for some reason I think SS can overpower Supes Tech. No offense but Thanos tech>then Supes.

Erik-Lensherr
GJ Avlon thumb up

Avlon
Originally posted by Newjak
Quick question.

What prevents Surfer from changing the entire Fortress from Advanced Krptonian tech to nothing but sand?

It's infinitely programmable, infinitely configurable, self replicating, and can adapt to anything.

The current fortress was made in seconds out of ice into a ridiculously high tech fortress.

And Cyborg will have complete control over it. Post IC, kryptonian tech seems to have gone back to silver age almost "magic" levels.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v661/Bigfatogre/Untitled-4.jpg


Originally posted by Newjak
Because there really doesn't seem to be any reason at all and for some reason I think SS can overpower Supes Tech. No offense but Thanos tech>then Supes.

No offense taken, especially since you're wrong. The original Eradicator program itself was stated to have infinite power. That and on top of all the insane kryptonian tech...Superman has artifacts and tech from enemies he's fought in there. Some of those items are magical as well as technological.

Avlon
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
GJ Avlon thumb up Thanks.

smile

Avlon
Originally posted by Mindship
Personally, I've never liked to regard the Surfer as someone who always wins, no matter what situation you put him in--though he may, May, have the power and versatility to handle (to some extent) nearly every situation.

There's just no fun in an indomitable character.

That said, I think Cyborg wins because of the home advantage, but I don't think it would be a curbstomp.

I agree that it is no fun to have an indomitable character.

In this case, it's a curbstomp. Classic Henshaw and SS would stalemate.

Taking Henshaw, and basically multiplying his power infinitely with insane tech and magical devices is a curbstomp on SS. With PIS turned off and Henshaw going for the kill, the odd's aren't good for Norrin.

Being able to overcome a lot of tech is good, but it still doesn't mean SS overcomes ALL tech. With the right stuff...he's really not hard to take out.

Power16
I wouldn't a respect thread for C Supes he seems pretty powerful and interesting.

batdude123
Originally posted by Newjak
Quick question.

What prevents Surfer from changing the entire Fortress from Advanced Krptonian tech to nothing but sand?

Because there really doesn't seem to be any reason at all and for some reason I think SS can overpower Supes Tech. No offense but Thanos tech>then Supes.

And how exactly (may I ask) did you come to that conclusion? The "because he's Thanos" argument isn't gonna work here.

Newjak
Originally posted by Avlon
It's infinitely programmable, infinitely configurable, self replicating, and can adapt to anything.

The current fortress was made in seconds out of ice into a ridiculously high tech fortress.

And Cyborg will have complete control over it. Post IC, kryptonian tech seems to have gone back to silver age almost "magic" levels.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v661/Bigfatogre/Untitled-4.jpg




No offense taken, especially since you're wrong. The original Eradicator program itself was stated to have infinite power. That and on top of all the insane kryptonian tech...Superman has artifacts and tech from enemies he's fought in there. Some of those items are magical as well as technological. And yet it begins as a finite amount. So until you can prove otherwise SS can simply turn it into sand or atomize it all and the planet Earth it is on. There really isn't a reason why he couldn't.


Originally posted by batdude123
And how exactly (may I ask) did you come to that conclusion? The "because he's Thanos" argument isn't gonna work here. I came to the conslusion based off of the things his tech has done.

i.e. Imprison a Warrior Madness Thor with the Power Gem in a shield
i.e. Transport complete armadas and armies to and from planets
i.e. Used it to turn Galactus into a Gun and imprison him

I think that puts Thanos tech higher than Supes considering nothing in his Fortress can duplicate those feats.

TricksterPriest
..............Newjak, I'm 90% sure the fortress has New Gods tech. And I'm damn sure if it has new gods tech, it has a motherbox.


.........I'm especially getting sick of the way Goober seems to refuse to get off Surfer's wang.

Newjak
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
..............Newjak, I'm 90% sure the fortress has New Gods tech. And I'm damn sure if it has new gods tech, it has a motherbox.


.........I'm especially getting sick of the way Goober seems to refuse to get off Surfer's wang. But you don't know for sure.

I on the other hand do know SS can turn the fortress into sand stick out tongue

Plus aren't motherboxes sentient so would Hank even be able to take it over?

TricksterPriest
Originally posted by Newjak
But you don't know for sure.

I on the other hand do know SS can turn the fortress into sand stick out tongue

Plus aren't motherboxes sentient so would Hank even be able to take it over?

And I think the fact that people aren't seeing this for the horrific curbstomp it is, is an indication of bias. stoned

And if Hank could control part of the Source Wall and Apokolips tech, I don't think a motherbox would be a problem. wink

Newjak
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
And I think the fact that people aren't seeing this for the horrific curbstomp it is, is an indication of bias. stoned

And if Hank could control part of the Source Wall and Apokolips tech, I don't think a motherbox would be a problem. wink It is seeing as Silver Surfer can apparently just turn him and the fortress into Sand 313


Let's be quaint here. A motherbox isn't just Apokolips tech it is the pinnacle of it and if it is sentient then Hank would probably be unable to take it over. That is of course if Superman even has one which you don't know for sure.

As for the Source wall. All Hank did was be able to place himself in a body and basically allow himself a small space to move. He even admits he doesn't want to be found because then he is done for.

Avlon
Originally posted by Newjak
And yet it begins as a finite amount. So until you can prove otherwise SS can simply turn it into sand or atomize it all and the planet Earth it is on. There really isn't a reason why he couldn't.

The burden is on you. Especially considering the circumstances.

Atomize the planet Earth..interesting, are you using SS or what you wish you could do with those powers?

A couple of pac-men on top of SS ftw. smile

Originally posted by Newjak
I came to the conslusion based off of the things his tech has done.

i.e. Imprison a Warrior Madness Thor with the Power Gem in a shield
i.e. Transport complete armadas and armies to and from planets
i.e. Used it to turn Galactus into a Gun and imprison him

I think that puts Thanos tech higher than Supes considering nothing in his Fortress can duplicate those feats.

All those can be duplicated. Forcefields, teleportation, manipulation? Nothing special there.

Sounds like you're trying to be as biased as you can be and wanting for attention.

Newjak
Originally posted by Avlon
The burden is on you. Especially considering the circumstances.

Atomize the planet Earth..interesting, are you using SS or what you wish you could do with those powers?

A couple of pac-men on top of SS ftw. smile



All those can be duplicated. Forcefields, teleportation, manipulation? Nothing special there.

Sounds like you're trying to be as biased as you can be and wanting for attention. Why is the burden on me. The Fortress is matter and Silver Surfer can mainpulate matter from one form to another. It is up to you to prove that the Fortress can resist it.


Seeing as Silver Surfer has destroyed Planets in the past I am using SS. wink

Except the power range is very hard to duplicate unless you are trying to say Supes tech can imprison and turn Galactus into a Gun. If you are then well I'm sorry I hate using this word but you are a fanboy. 313

Avlon
Originally posted by Newjak
Why is the burden on me. The Fortress is matter and Silver Surfer can mainpulate matter from one form to another. It is up to you to prove that the Fortress can resist it.

Let's see, Henshaw can manipulate it as well, the fortress itself can adapt to anything and has tons of alien artifacts...etc.

Surfer get's stomped. Like I said, unless you can show an enemy going to the Fortress and turning it into sand. Meanwhile, SS weaknesses get exploited rather easily.

Sonic shark ftw.

Originally posted by Newjak
Seeing as Silver Surfer has destroyed Planets in the past I am using SS. wink

Except the power range is very hard to duplicate unless you are trying to say Supes tech can imprison and turn Galactus into a Gun. If you are then well I'm sorry I hate using this word but you are a fanboy. 313

Really? SS has destroyed Earth in canon?

I guess you missed the part of infinitely programmable, and infinitely configurable.

The only Fanboy here is you my friend...but we both know you're just being silly for the sake of attention. smile

Newjak
Originally posted by Avlon
Let's see, Henshaw can manipulate it as well, the fortress itself can adapt to anything and has tons of alien artifacts...etc.

Surfer get's stomped. Like I said, unless you can show an enemy going to the Fortress and turning it into sand. Meanwhile, SS weaknesses get exploited rather easily.

Sonic shark ftw.



Really? SS has destroyed Earth in canon?

I guess you missed the part of infinitely programmable, and infinitely configurable.

The only Fanboy here is you my friend...but we both know you're just being silly for the sake of attention. smile He can change it's shape but he can not turn it into another form. SS can change matter from one form to another. Therefore unless the Fortress can not be matter maniped something you haven't shown then yes SS can just turn it into sand.

He has destroyed planets and what is Earth oh wait a Planet that's what I thought.

So Hulk has Infinite Strength but he still gets beat down by Thanos. Just because it says it has all these possibilities doesn't mean it will be able to do anything. I do not see the Fortress or anything Kryptonian made containing Galactus. wink

TricksterPriest
Originally posted by Newjak
He can change it's shape but he can not turn it into another form. SS can change matter from one form to another. Therefore unless the Fortress can not be matter maniped something you haven't shown then yes SS can just turn it into sand.

He has destroyed planets and what is Earth oh wait a Planet that's what I thought.

So Hulk has Infinite Strength but he still gets beat down by Thanos. Just because it says it has all these possibilities doesn't mean it will be able to do anything. I do not see the Fortress or anything Kryptonian made containing Galactus. wink

Henshaw would have the full technological capabilities of kryptonian tech, new gods, etc, etc, etc. How the hell would Surfer get out of there alive? This is like facing Tyrant on Galactus's ship, or facing Shazam in the rock of eternity. It's just giving Henshaw the means to curbstomp Surfer.

and it doesn't have to beat Galactus to beat Surfer. wink Hell, Doom did it. laughing

Newjak
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Henshaw would have the full technological capabilities of kryptonian tech, new gods, etc, etc, etc. How the hell would Surfer get out of there alive? This is like facing Tyrant on Galactus's ship, or facing Shazam in the rock of eternity. It's just giving Henshaw the means to curbstomp Surfer.

and it doesn't have to beat Galactus to beat Surfer. wink Hell, Doom did it. laughing And the problem is that Silver Surfer could just turn all that fancy New God, Kryptonian tech into sand and what is Henshaw going to do about it.


Besides what devices does Superman have from the New Gods. What tech and magical artifacts does he have there. Just saying he will get all this awesomely powered stuff doesn't make it true unless you show it.

On the other hand it is common knowledge that Silver Surfer cna change objects from one substance to another. stick out tongue

Rufus T Firefly
my thread is less original and less likely to make u laugh no expression

Avlon
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Henshaw would have the full technological capabilities of kryptonian tech, new gods, etc, etc, etc. How the hell would Surfer get out of there alive? This is like facing Tyrant on Galactus's ship, or facing Shazam in the rock of eternity. It's just giving Henshaw the means to curbstomp Surfer.

and it doesn't have to beat Galactus to beat Surfer. wink Hell, Doom did it. laughing

I guess to him turning a childrens toy into Superman's skin is not matter manip.

He's on my ignore list now anyway.

Soljer
5/10 to each...

Hmmm, maybe, this way, BOTH groups will argue with me...

Newjak
Originally posted by Avlon
I guess to him turning a childrens toy into Superman's skin is not matter manip.

He's on my ignore list now anyway. Hey all I did was ask a simple question. What prevents Silver Surfer from turning the Fortress into sand. I have yet to get any real answer other than he can't. Where's the proof he can not. stick out tongue

TricksterPriest
Originally posted by Soljer
5/10 to each...

Hmmm, maybe, this way, BOTH groups will argue with me...

durbeware So you walk where angels fear to tread? big grin stick out tongue

Rufus T Firefly
but trick...here i am...angels are all around you...

Newjak
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
durbeware So you walk where angels fear to tread? big grin stick out tongue He will take on two fanboy armies by himself durfist

Priest
Originally posted by Rufus T Firefly
but trick...here i am...angels are all around you...
Gay...

























stick out tongue

Rufus T Firefly
hey hey hey....hey....i was a stunt angel in angel's in the outfield...and little nicky....and a night in paris

Priest
Originally posted by Rufus T Firefly
hey hey hey....hey....i was a stunt angel in angel's in the outfield...and little nicky....and a night in paris
Sure red, don't worry im still ur friend131

RUNMAN
Don't know that Henshaw guy. All I know is that Silver Surfer whoops Super-Man's arse. It's kind of disappointing that this forum has been overtaken by... Alas, the golden age of this forum is over...

Galan007
Hank ftw.

Blair Wind
There has been no argument against the fact that Surfer could just turn the tech into thin air and be done with it. What would the tech do, since there is NO tech from which to configure itself or program itself with. erm

"Infinite" can only get you so far, and in this case you need some tech at the very least to produce these infinite results

masterbruce
Originally posted by Blair Wind
There has been no argument against the fact that Surfer could just turn the tech into thin air and be done with it. What would the tech do, since there is NO tech from which to configure itself or program itself with. erm

"Infinite" can only get you so far, and in this case you need some tech at the very least to produce these infinite results

argument is:

Surfer isn't powerful enough to turn tech under the CONTROL of someone into something else.

Surfer can only transmute inanimate objects. And if tech is controlled by Henshaw, they aren't inanimate anymore.

Soljer
Considering that the Surfer has transmuted living beings before, I don't think he has an 'inanimate' restriction.

masterbruce
Originally posted by Soljer
Considering that the Surfer has transmuted living beings before, I don't think he has an 'inanimate' restriction.

ok, I admit it, I just pulled that 'inanimate requirement' outta my arse

however, I rarely see Surfer use it...and if he is such a pacifist, he should use it more often since turning his enemies in gingerbread man saves bloodshed

quanchi112
surfer crushes the competition here.

Soljer
Originally posted by masterbruce
ok, I admit it, I just pulled that 'inanimate requirement' outta my arse

however, I rarely see Surfer use it...and if he is such a pacifist, he should use it more often since turning his enemies in gingerbread man saves bloodshed

It also makes for an incredibly boring fight scene.

masterbruce
Originally posted by Soljer
It also makes for an incredibly boring fight scene.

hence why it would make sense to have a restriction of some sorts on his transmuting ability

otherwise its pretty dumb that Surfer doesnt use it since he's the ULTIMATE PACIFIST.

quanchi112
Originally posted by masterbruce
hence why it would make sense to have a restriction of some sorts on his transmuting ability

otherwise its pretty dumb that Surfer doesnt use it since he's the ULTIMATE PACIFIST. supes is almost as bad. the are both noble is all.

TricksterPriest
Surfer not doing that falls under CIS. And I don't think he's got the power to do that to the entire fortress and fight Henshaw at the same time.

Soljer
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Surfer not doing that falls under CIS. And I don't think he's got the power to do that to the entire fortress and fight Henshaw at the same time.

Never said he did. Never said he didn't.

Just pointing out that Masterbruce constantly pulls stuff from his ass, and so desperately hopes that no one calls him on it.

TricksterPriest
Originally posted by Soljer
Never said he did. Never said he didn't.

Just pointing out that Masterbruce constantly pulls stuff from his ass, and so desperately hopes that no one calls him on it.

True. stick out tongue Btw, Henshaw has Superman's bio-aura, so Surfer can't transmute him easily, if at all. And Goober is claiming that Surfer can fight Henshaw blitzing him AND the fortress itself attacking? Or Henshaw creating alien weaponry? I think not. wink

Avlon
Originally posted by Blair Wind
There has been no argument against the fact that Surfer could just turn the tech into thin air and be done with it. What would the tech do, since there is NO tech from which to configure itself or program itself with. erm

"Infinite" can only get you so far, and in this case you need some tech at the very least to produce these infinite results

Tech that by itself can adapt to anything.

Tech that can adapt to anything and is under control of Henshaw.

The fact that Surfer has been powerless against tech before that he couldn't transmute.

The fact that the whole argument is being pulled out of people's asses.

janus77
Surfer's been in an arm-lock that he "couldn't" get out of.
Surfer suffers from extreme jobbing. it's in his nature, he's not that big of a 'star' in comicdom...

Surfer has transmuted Eradicator's guns, whole planets and Spiderman too ...

if Surfer wanted to, he could just black-hole the tech away, along with Cyborg supe.

or EMP blast the tech, or phase into Cyborg Supes and spread some deadly radiation or something ... creative application of his established powers...

Blair Wind
Originally posted by Avlon
Tech that by itself can adapt to anything.

Tech that can adapt to anything and is under control of Henshaw.

The fact that Surfer has been powerless against tech before that he couldn't transmute.

The fact that the whole argument is being pulled out of people's asses.

My point is not that the tech in and of itself cannot adapt, but what if there was no tech to adapt? The fact that it becomes something else BEFORE it can adapt, raises the question of could the tech, having been already turned into gold, air, or a taco turn itself back into tech? The obvious answer is "no!" unless you can provide evidence to the contrary.

Also, please show a time where Surfer could NOT transmute tech. Like a direct reference to him saying he tried to transmute it and could not. Not a picture of him not thinking to use his transmutation skills and only blasting the thing.

Endless Mike
Originally posted by Blair Wind
My point is not that the tech in and of itself cannot adapt, but what if there was no tech to adapt? The fact that it becomes something else BEFORE it can adapt, raises the question of could the tech, having been already turned into gold, air, or a taco turn itself back into tech? The obvious answer is "no!" unless you can provide evidence to the contrary.

Also, please show a time where Surfer could NOT transmute tech. Like a direct reference to him saying he tried to transmute it and could not. Not a picture of him not thinking to use his transmutation skills and only blasting the thing.

Well in Surfer's second encounter with the Obliterator he had upgraded his weapons so they couldn't be transmuted

Avlon
Originally posted by Blair Wind
My point is not that the tech in and of itself cannot adapt, but what if there was no tech to adapt? The fact that it becomes something else BEFORE it can adapt, raises the question of could the tech, having been already turned into gold, air, or a taco turn itself back into tech? The obvious answer is "no!" unless you can provide evidence to the contrary.

Also, please show a time where Surfer could NOT transmute tech. Like a direct reference to him saying he tried to transmute it and could not. Not a picture of him not thinking to use his transmutation skills and only blasting the thing.

Why would the tech not be able to adapt with Henshaw completely in control of it?

When would SS get a chance when being attacked by all sorts of devices that could kill him?

Please provide some evidence of someone transmuting the fortress. Remember, you're the one making the wild claims so it's on you. Especially considering that it's not that hard to disable SS using the right tech.

Was helpless against.....tech. In that storyline, he was trapped in a ship, and made it out by dumb luck.

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5551/silversurfer198902412bd1.th.jpg

helpless again.

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/6708/silversurfer199712415peuj9.th.jpg

Now show us someone transmuting tech that already is adaptable against that type of attack AND an extension of Henshaw.

TricksterPriest
Freaking surfer gets all the girls..... naughty

and has anyone ever tried to transmute Henshaw, besides Darkseid with the OE?

batdude123
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Well in Surfer's second encounter with the Obliterator he had upgraded his weapons so they couldn't be transmuted

Yep.

Plus, thinking Surfer could transmute the fortress is also under the assumption that he would have better control over the tech than Henshaw himself. If 'Borg can control and manipulate a portion of the Source Wall, it's laughable to assume Surfer would be able to do ANYTHING to the technology in the fortress if Henshaw has his consciousness projected into it.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Avlon
Why would the tech not be able to adapt with Henshaw completely in control of it?

When would SS get a chance when being attacked by all sorts of devices that could kill him?

Please provide some evidence of someone transmuting the fortress. Remember, you're the one making the wild claims so it's on you. Especially considering that it's not that hard to disable SS using the right tech.
I was going to leave this thread alone and just leave you to your bias and double standards, but since you've now resorted to flat out lying I guess I'll step in so everyone knows how things really went down...

Originally posted by Avlon
Was helpless against.....tech. In that storyline, he was trapped in a ship, and made it out by dumb luck.

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5551/silversurfer198902412bd1.th.jpg
Wrong, dumb luck had nothing to do with it. He made it out of that ship by reprogramming the damn thing... http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/3738/silversurfer198902421wq6.jpg
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2807/silversurfer198902422hm0.jpg
So he was hardly helpless against it.

Originally posted by Avlon
helpless again.

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/6708/silversurfer199712415peuj9.th.jpg
So being down for a panel or two somehow means that you're absolutely helpless? It funny how you never show the next page where Surfer's gotten rid of all the energy draining devices(which again means that he was hardly helpless against them)...
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/4857/silversurfer199712416fm4.jpg

Originally posted by Avlon
Now show us someone transmuting tech that already is adaptable against that type of attack AND an extension of Henshaw.
I fail to see why transmutation would even be necessary for Surfer to do that. After all, Cyborgs body can't even withstand a punch from a depowered Supes...
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8057/returnofsuperman456sh8.jpg

And when Supes gets his powers back, Cyborgs completely screwed...
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/2733/returnofsuperman462gk2.jpg
If Henshaw can't take that, there's no way he has a chance against Surfer.

Low showings are fun to use aren't they?

TricksterPriest
Originally posted by darthgoober
I was going to leave this thread alone and just leave you to your bias and double standards, but since you've now resorted to flat out lying I guess I'll step in so everyone knows how things really went down...


Wrong, dumb luck had nothing to do with it. He made it out of that ship by reprogramming the damn thing... http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/3738/silversurfer198902421wq6.jpg
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2807/silversurfer198902422hm0.jpg
So he was hardly helpless against it.


So being down for a panel or two somehow means that you're absolutely helpless? It funny how you never show the next page where Surfer's gotten rid of all the energy draining devices(which again means that he was hardly helpless against them)...
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/4857/silversurfer199712416fm4.jpg


I fail to see why transmutation would even be necessary for Surfer to do that. After all, Cyborgs body can't even withstand a punch from a depowered Supes...
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8057/returnofsuperman456sh8.jpg

And when Supes gets his powers back, Cyborgs completely screwed...
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/2733/returnofsuperman462gk2.jpg
If Henshaw can't take that, there's no way he has a chance against Surfer.

Low showings are fun to use aren't they?

Total bullshit right there. Superman had just been fully REPOWERED by the sacrifice of the Eradicator. Cyborg was the one who was weakened. THE 2ND FREAKING PANEL SAYS SO! haermm And btw, Cyborg isn't killed if you smash his body. He'll just migrate to some other tech and recreate it. Cyborg beamed himself all the way to a little device he put on Doomsday, who was at least a few galaxies away.

darthgoober
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Total bullshit right there. Superman had just been fully REPOWERED by the sacrifice of the Eradicator. Cyborg was the one who was weakened. THE 2ND FREAKING PANEL SAYS SO! haermm And btw, Cyborg isn't killed if you smash his body. He'll just migrate to some other tech and recreate it. Cyborg beamed himself all the way to a little device he put on Doomsday, who was at least a few galaxies away.

You should try actually reading what's been posted before talking shit...
Originally posted by darthgoober
I was going to leave this thread alone and just leave you to your bias and double standards, but since you've now resorted to flat out lying I guess I'll step in so everyone knows how things really went down...


Wrong, dumb luck had nothing to do with it. He made it out of that ship by reprogramming the damn thing... http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/3738/silversurfer198902421wq6.jpg
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2807/silversurfer198902422hm0.jpg
So he was hardly helpless against it.


So being down for a panel or two somehow means that you're absolutely helpless? It funny how you never show the next page where Surfer's gotten rid of all the energy draining devices(which again means that he was hardly helpless against them)...
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/4857/silversurfer199712416fm4.jpg


I fail to see why transmutation would even be necessary for Surfer to do that. After all, Cyborgs body can't even withstand a punch from a depowered Supes...
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8057/returnofsuperman456sh8.jpg

And when Supes gets his powers back, Cyborgs completely screwed...
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/2733/returnofsuperman462gk2.jpg
If Henshaw can't take that, there's no way he has a chance against Surfer.

Low showings are fun to use aren't they?

Yes he was at full power in the second scan(which I specifically mentioned), but in the first scan Supes was still depowered wink .

Hercules
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Total bullshit right there. Superman had just been fully REPOWERED by the sacrifice of the Eradicator. Cyborg was the one who was weakened. THE 2ND FREAKING PANEL SAYS SO! haermm And btw, Cyborg isn't killed if you smash his body. He'll just migrate to some other tech and recreate it. Cyborg beamed himself all the way to a little device he put on Doomsday, who was at least a few galaxies away.

Goober said before the final scan that Superman got his powers back? confused

darthgoober
Damn bottom of the page...


Originally posted by darthgoober

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Total bullshit right there. Superman had just been fully REPOWERED by the sacrifice of the Eradicator. Cyborg was the one who was weakened. THE 2ND FREAKING PANEL SAYS SO! haermm And btw, Cyborg isn't killed if you smash his body. He'll just migrate to some other tech and recreate it. Cyborg beamed himself all the way to a little device he put on Doomsday, who was at least a few galaxies away.

You should try actually reading what's been posted before talking shit...
Originally posted by darthgoober
I was going to leave this thread alone and just leave you to your bias and double standards, but since you've now resorted to flat out lying I guess I'll step in so everyone knows how things really went down...


Wrong, dumb luck had nothing to do with it. He made it out of that ship by reprogramming the damn thing... http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/3738/silversurfer198902421wq6.jpg
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2807/silversurfer198902422hm0.jpg
So he was hardly helpless against it.


So being down for a panel or two somehow means that you're absolutely helpless? It funny how you never show the next page where Surfer's gotten rid of all the energy draining devices(which again means that he was hardly helpless against them)...
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/4857/silversurfer199712416fm4.jpg


I fail to see why transmutation would even be necessary for Surfer to do that. After all, Cyborgs body can't even withstand a punch from a depowered Supes...
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8057/returnofsuperman456sh8.jpg

And when Supes gets his powers back, Cyborgs completely screwed...
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/2733/returnofsuperman462gk2.jpg
If Henshaw can't take that, there's no way he has a chance against Surfer.

Low showings are fun to use aren't they?

Yes he was at full power in the second scan(which I specifically mentioned), but in the first scan Supes was still depowered wink .

Newjak
Originally posted by batdude123
Yep.

Plus, thinking Surfer could transmute the fortress is also under the assumption that he would have better control over the tech than Henshaw himself. If 'Borg can control and manipulate a portion of the Source Wall, it's laughable to assume Surfer would be able to do ANYTHING to the technology in the fortress if Henshaw has his consciousness projected into it. He doesn't have to have better control over tech. He just has to transmutate it. That hardly becomes a battle of wills.


Henshaw: I can control the very tech in this place to do my absolute bidding and despite your power you will not be able to overpower my will on it.


Silver Surfer: ok

Turns entire Fortress into sand

Henshaw: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


This thing has nothing to do with Henshaw's control over the tech. It has to do with whether or not it can not be changed from tech to air.

masterbruce
Originally posted by Newjak
He doesn't have to have better control over tech. He just has to transmutate it. That hardly becomes a battle of wills.


Henshaw: I can control the very tech in this place to do my absolute bidding and despite your power you will not be able to overpower my will on it.


Silver Surfer: ok

Tries to turn entire Fortress into sand, but fails miserably.

Silver Surfer: uh...abracadabra?!

Henshaw: Hahahahaha....now it's my turn

Turns into fortress into a massive living weapon aimed on Surfer and fires!



fixed

TricksterPriest
Henshaw was being weakened by the k-nite reactor as well, so it's a moot point.

darthgoober
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Henshaw was being weakened by the k-nite reactor as well, so it's a moot point.
You mean the metal jaw that got knocked off of Henshaw was weakened by K-nite laughing . If that's the case then Henshaw's really screwed since transfering his consciousness won't do any good.

Newjak
Originally posted by masterbruce
fixed the problem is no one has yet given a reason why the Fortress can not be changed. If you would like to be the first masterbruce step up to the plate and provide the evidence for it smile

masterbruce
Originally posted by Newjak
the problem is no one has yet given a reason why the Fortress can not be changed. If you would like to be the first masterbruce step up to the plate and provide the evidence for it smile

my evidence is that Silver Surfer has NEVER transmuted anything close to the power of the Fortress.

darthgoober
Originally posted by masterbruce
my evidence is that Silver Surfer has NEVER transmuted anything close to the power of the Fortress.
Has the Fortress EVER resisted transmutation?

Juntai
Originally posted by darthgoober
You mean the metal jaw that got knocked off of Henshaw was weakened by K-nite laughing . If that's the case then Henshaw's really screwed since transfering his consciousness won't do any good. His overall durability, yes. A lot of his durability comes from the idea that he has access to Superman's powers through his genetic codes/dna.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Juntai
His overall durability, yes. A lot of his durability comes from the idea that he has access to Superman's powers through his genetic codes/dna.
But the cybernetic jaw wouldn't have Supes DNA, so the metal itself shouldn't have been weakened.

masterbruce
Originally posted by darthgoober
But the cybernetic jaw wouldn't have Supes DNA, so the metal itself shouldn't have been weakened.

yes, but the tendon that binds the organic part of the face to the steel is weakened, hence why it got knocked off by Supe's fist

masterbruce
Originally posted by darthgoober
Has the Fortress EVER resisted transmutation?

yes, to my knowledge, it has never been transmited successfully

Newjak
Originally posted by masterbruce
my evidence is that Silver Surfer has NEVER transmuted anything close to the power of the Fortress. So that is your evidence. He can not change the tech in the Fortress because apparently it is more advanced than anything he has tried. Seems suspect to me.


Matter is matter. the only way to not be transmutated is if there is an actual defense against it. Like you can do it or you have resistance to it.

Both of which I have yet to see the Fortress have stick out tongue

darthgoober
Originally posted by masterbruce
yes, but the tendon that binds the organic part of the face to the steel is weakened, hence why it got knocked off by Supe's fist
If the jaw were just knocked off intact you'd have a point but the metal was busted in several places also.

darthgoober
Originally posted by masterbruce
yes, to my knowledge, it has never been transmited successfully
Has anyone ever tried and failed?

masterbruce
Originally posted by Newjak
So that is your evidence. He can not change the tech in the Fortress because apparently it is more advanced than anything he has tried. Seems suspect to me.


Matter is matter. the only way to not be transmutated is if there is an actual defense against it. Like you can do it or you have resistance to it.

Both of which I have yet to see the Fortress have stick out tongue

cyborg has supe's dna and therefore his aura...by controlling the fortress, his aura permeates the fortress and it is therefore also protected against transmutation.

masterbruce
Originally posted by darthgoober
Has anyone ever tried and failed?

no one has ever succeeded...

darthgoober
Originally posted by masterbruce
cyborg has supe's dna and therefore his aura...by controlling the fortress, his aura permeates the fortress and it is therefore also protected against transmutation.
The aura comes from his organic parts(just like Supes). If he gives up his organics, he loses the aura.

Newjak
Originally posted by masterbruce
cyborg has supe's dna and therefore his aura...by controlling the fortress, his aura permeates the fortress and it is therefore also protected against transmutation. So then the entire Fortress would be vulnerable to K-Nite?


Besides can you prove his aura happens to transfer with the tech he is controlling. Can you also prove that Cyborg Supes Bio Aura is as good as Superman's because we know Superman is stronger smile

darthgoober
Originally posted by masterbruce
no one has ever succeeded...
Did they fail, or just not try?

Juntai
Originally posted by darthgoober
But the cybernetic jaw wouldn't have Supes DNA, so the metal itself shouldn't have been weakened. You'd have to talk to Avalon about it, because he's more knowledgable on the character I admit. It's been a very long time since I went over a lot of early/mid-nineties material. His wiki however says that it does weaken his tech side as well.

masterbruce
Originally posted by Newjak
Can you also prove that Cyborg Supes Bio Aura is as good as Superman's because we know Superman is stronger smile

I never said his aura was as strong as supes, but it will be sufficient against surfer's transmutation abilities, an ability he pretty much never uses, I might add.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Juntai
You'd have to talk to Avalon about it, because he's more knowledgable on the character I admit. It's been a very long time since I went over a lot of early/mid-nineties material. His wiki however says that it does weaken his tech side as well.
Then the fortress itself would become vulnerable to k-nite, red sun radiation, and solar energy absorbing too right?

masterbruce
Originally posted by darthgoober
Did they fail, or just not try?

that I cannot answer

masterbruce
Originally posted by darthgoober
Then the fortress itself would become vulnerable to k-nite, red sun radiation, and solar energy absorbing too right?

and how would surfer know about these weaknesses?

darthgoober
Originally posted by masterbruce
that I cannot answer
Well that seems to be a pretty important piece of info to me. Surfer didn't try to trasmute the Rhino either, but that doesn't mean that Rhino can't be transmuted.

Newjak
Originally posted by masterbruce
I never said his aura was as strong as supes, but it will be sufficient against surfer's transmutation abilities, an ability he pretty much never uses, I might add. So you don't even know if Cyborg Supes Bio Aura would protect him like Superman's.

Weak Evidence at best.

Silver Surfer turns the Fortress into water smile

darthgoober
Originally posted by masterbruce
I never said his aura was as strong as supes, but it will be sufficient against surfer's transmutation abilities, an ability he pretty much never uses, I might add.
You should look at Surfer's updated respect thread, he's actually got quite a record as far as transmutation goes.

darthgoober
Originally posted by masterbruce
and how would surfer know about these weaknesses?
Basic knowledge combined with cosmic awareness.

masterbruce
logical proof on why surfer can't transmute powerful beings:

a. surfer is a pacifist and does not like violence

b. if a pacifist has alternate means of resolution such as transmutation, the pacifist will not resort to violence

c. surfer DOES use violence, and alot of it to boot

Conclusion: therefore, surfer is either not a pacifist or cannot transmute opponents. Since we KNOW he is a pacifist, Surfer must not be able to transmute opponents.

darthgoober
Originally posted by masterbruce
logical proof on why surfer can't transmute powerful beings:

a. surfer is a pacifist and does not like violence

b. if a pacifist has alternate means of resolution such as transmutation, the pacifist will not resort to violence

c. surfer DOES use violence, and alot of it to boot

Conclusion: therefore, surfer is either not a pacifist or cannot transmute opponents. Since we KNOW he is a pacifist, Surfer must not be able to transmute opponents.
You'd have a point if Surfer hadn't transmuted several opponents in the past...

Newjak
Originally posted by masterbruce
logical proof on why surfer can't transmute powerful beings:

a. surfer is a pacifist and does not like violence

b. if a pacifist has alternate means of resolution such as transmutation, the pacifist will not resort to violence

c. surfer DOES use violence, and alot of it to boot

Conclusion: therefore, surfer is either not a pacifist or cannot transmute opponents. Since we KNOW he is a pacifist, Surfer must not be able to transmute opponents. Except we do know he can transmutate matter.

So your logic falls apart at the very beginning smile

masterbruce
Who is the toughest opponent Surfer has transmuted?

darthgoober
Originally posted by masterbruce
Who is the toughest opponent Surfer has transmuted?
Why does that matter since your whole point was that he must not be able to transmute opponents in the first place?

masterbruce
Originally posted by darthgoober
Why does that matter since your whole point was that he must not be able to transmute opponents in the first place?

no, my point is that he can't transmute powerful opponents.

Newjak
Originally posted by masterbruce
Who is the toughest opponent Surfer has transmuted? Like I said before it doesn't matter. All that matters is if the person trying to be transmutated has either A) Their own transmutation ability or B) has shown resistance to it.


None of which you can verify therefore turning the Fortress into Water would be the same as SS turning lead into gold. smile

masterbruce
oh btw, since by KMC rules we use current versions of characters, current Cyborg has TEN Qwardian Rings

Surfer is f$%ked

whether or not he can transmute fortress is moot point

darthgoober
Originally posted by masterbruce
no, my point is that he can't transmute powerful opponents.
Legacy and Quasimodo leap to mind in regards to who he's transmuted. But since we're talking about him transmuting non organic matter, I fail to see how it's relevant.

Newjak
Originally posted by masterbruce
oh btw, since by KMC rules we use current versions of characters, current Cyborg has TEN Qwardian Rings

Surfer is f$%ked

whether or not he can transmute fortress is moot point Except current Silver Surfer is no longer a pacifist and therefore would not hesitate to blow the entire planet and all its tech up then drain the rings smile

masterbruce
Originally posted by Newjak
Like I said before it doesn't matter. All that matters is if the person trying to be transmutated has either A) Their own transmutation ability or B) has shown resistance to it.


None of which you can verify therefore turning the Fortress into Water would be the same as SS turning lead into gold. smile

it does matter becuz i dont think he can transmute someone who has even the most minimal protective bioaura.

Just because I can KO aunt may doesnt mean I can KO Hulk

darthgoober
Originally posted by masterbruce
oh btw, since by KMC rules we use current versions of characters, current Cyborg has TEN Qwardian Rings

Surfer is f$%ked

whether or not he can transmute fortress is moot point
Except that it was specified by the thread starter that he didn't have the rings.

darthgoober
Originally posted by masterbruce
it does matter becuz i dont think he can transmute someone who has even the most minimal protective bioaura.

Just because I can KO aunt may doesnt mean I can KO Hulk
And how does Henshaw have the bio aura if he's given up his organic form and taken the form of the fortress itself?

Newjak
Originally posted by masterbruce
it does matter becuz i dont think he can transmute someone who has even the most minimal protective bioaura.

Just because I can KO aunt may doesnt mean I can KO Hulk Except if you can transmutate Aunt May then you can also Transmutate Namor. See where your logic falls apart.

You can not provide proof that the Fortress or Cyborg's bio aurua can resist transmutation. smile

Validus
http://i10.tinypic.com/68idj7c.gif

masterbruce
Originally posted by darthgoober
Except that it was specified by the thread starter that he didn't have the rings.

actually the thread starter didn't specify that.

Juntai
Originally posted by Validus
http://i10.tinypic.com/68idj7c.gif lol/

darthgoober
Originally posted by masterbruce
actually the thread starter didn't specify that.


Originally posted by Avlon
Classic Henshaw or current Henshaw with 8 yellow rings?

Originally posted by batdude123
He's formidable enough without the rings.

masterbruce
Originally posted by darthgoober
And how does Henshaw have the bio aura if he's given up his organic form and taken the form of the fortress itself?

who ever said he has to give up his organic form to go techform...he can just put organic parts to the fortress as he please

Avlon
Originally posted by darthgoober
I was going to leave this thread alone and just leave you to your bias and double standards, but since you've now resorted to flat out lying I guess I'll step in so everyone knows how things really went down...


Wrong, dumb luck had nothing to do with it. He made it out of that ship by reprogramming the damn thing... http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/3738/silversurfer198902421wq6.jpg
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2807/silversurfer198902422hm0.jpg
So he was hardly helpless against it.

Really? So Surfer wouldn't have ample opportunity to be destroyed there by Henshaw? If that Pacman thing would have shown up there, SS wouldn't have been a goner? It was dumb luck. He got out of it (to his credit) but it wasn't like he powered his way though invincibly...

Originally posted by darthgoober
So being down for a panel or two somehow means that you're absolutely helpless? It funny how you never show the next page where Surfer's gotten rid of all the energy draining devices(which again means that he was hardly helpless against them)...
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/4857/silversurfer199712416fm4.jpg

Energy draining devices plus a superman+ level opponent, and tech & magic devices from all around the universe.

Cyborg doesn't need to be in a body to fight Surfer in this match up...or he could be in multiple bodies.


Originally posted by darthgoober
I fail to see why transmutation would even be necessary for Surfer to do that. After all, Cyborgs body can't even withstand a punch from a depowered Supes...
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8057/returnofsuperman456sh8.jpg

Originally posted by darthgoober
And when Supes gets his powers back, Cyborgs completely screwed...
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/2733/returnofsuperman462gk2.jpg
If Henshaw can't take that, there's no way he has a chance against Surfer.

Depowered Supes who was slowly gaining his powers back vs brick and hair which have stopped Surfer. Who has the lowest point?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Low showings are fun to use aren't they?

They sure are.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8968/20070819222903f4v107219sm4.th.jpghttp://img50.imageshack.us/img50/8872/20070819222931f4v107220wz6.th.jpg

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