Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

I have been reading that people are saying that Blackbolt is one of the most powerful people in the universe?

I know plenty of characters that would mop him.

People are making it seem as WWH should have no chance against this guy.

In the universe? Hell no.

Should WWH win? Hell no.

Yes, yes he should. Nothing BB could do to him, short of a full-on scream, would even budge Hulk at these levels.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Yes, yes he should. Nothing BB could do to him, short of a full-on scream, would even budge Hulk at these levels.

I totally agree.

The only weapon that BB has against the Hulk is his scream.
If you choose to write that the scream no longer fully effects the Hulk, then the Hulk should be able to beat the crap out of BB.

I guess we got a new influx of people who don't know much about the more obscure characters.

Most people who can dish out a bigger bang then Blakgar are some sort of beyond-mortal entitity, like the Heralds of Galactus or the like. BB might well be the most powerful being that still needs to use the toilet on a regular basis.

Black Bolt turns the Hulk to stone.

Or to mist.

Game over.

BB's not going to achieve anything trying to mess with Hulk.
WWH is a fair depiction of how it would go down.
BB screams till his bladder gives out, Hulk thumps his head clean off BB's shoulders.


transmutation didn't work when far more powerful beings tried it on Hulk, BB has zero chance.

Originally posted by Soljer
Black Bolt turns the Hulk to stone.

Or to mist.

Game over.
i dont think hulk can be manipulated like that
he did withstood getting molecularly bonded to concrete.

Hulk's healing and adaptability counters transmutation.

Originally posted by Priest
i dont think hulk can be manipulated like that
he did withstood getting molecularly bonded to concrete.

Being bonded to something and ripping apart is not the same as withstanding having you atoms actually reconfigure and change from carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen into...say...Iron.

You're bringing up something that holds no weight in the Hulk's defense. It'd be like saying....

"He could just transmute spiderman to stone!"

"But Spiderman can shoot webs! I don't think he can be transmuted like that."

Originally posted by Badabing
Hulk's healing and adaptability counters transmutation.

And where do you get this from?

Random supposition?

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Yes, yes he should. Nothing BB could do to him, short of a full-on scream, would even budge Hulk at these levels.

Matter manipulation much?

Originally posted by Estacado

Matter manipulation much?

By BlackBolt? No, not much.

If the fight was back when BB really did that consistently sure the win would be idiotic. Writers have glossed over that though

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
By BlackBolt? No, not much.

If the fight was back when BB really did that consistently sure the win would be idiotic. Writers have glossed over that though

Black Bolt is an MM.

Originally posted by SouthSpawn
I have been reading that people are saying that Blackbolt is one of the most powerful people in the universe?

I know plenty of characters that would mop him.

People are making it seem as WWH should have no chance against this guy.

I know of plenty of people that would mop him as well.

You don't need the strongest in the universe, nor the strongest on Eearth to beat WWH.

Black Bolt would win.

Originally posted by Priest
i dont think hulk can be manipulated like that
he did withstood getting molecularly bonded to concrete.

He didn't withstand it, he ripped his own arms out and healed. Just like how Deadpool ripped himself apart from Cable after they had been merged.

Originally posted by Badabing
Hulk's healing and adaptability counters transmutation.

No.

He can rip himself out and heal it if people like Mikael or Blackgaar were to merge him with a tree. However, if BB suddenly felt like morphing the Hulk's body, we have no reason to believe that he could heal it. How many people have we seen heal and counter molecule manipulation?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
By BlackBolt? No, not much.

If the fight was back when BB really did that consistently sure the win would be idiotic. Writers have glossed over that though

He doesn't use it, because he rarely needs to.

Just because he doesn't use it now, doesn't mean something he frequently did before isn't relevant.

Black Bolt tries to avoid fighting in general.

He's a king and consider himself to be a god compared to regular human beings. Inhumans v2.

Originally posted by llagrok
Black Bolt is an MM.

He is indeed. But he certainly seems to prefer using his scream.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
He is indeed. But he certainly seems to prefer using his scream.

Yes.

However, he is not an idiot. I doubt he would fight the Hulk like that. By the way he looked, Hulk punched him a lot more than simply once. I doubt the Hulk was able to completely stop him from attacking with a single punch, seeing as the Hulk didn't seem to progressing very fast when he "withstood the scream"

In the Inhumans comics, it's also stated that Black Bolt is a VERY close second to an enraged Hulk in terms of strength. I think that puts him above class 60. Just throwing that out there. In Silent War we saw him moving a lot when fighting his opponents, as did he in the earlier inhuman issues. I think it's weird that he chose to stand still when facing someone who can't fly.

Originally posted by llagrok
Yes.

However, he is not an idiot. I doubt he would fight the Hulk like that. By the way he looked, Hulk punched him a lot more than simply once. I doubt the Hulk was able to completely stop him from attacking with a single punch, seeing as the Hulk didn't seem to progressing very fast when he "withstood the scream"

In the Inhumans comics, it's also stated that Black Bolt is a VERY close second to an enraged Hulk in terms of strength. I think that puts him above class 60. Just throwing that out there. In Silent War we saw him moving a lot when fighting his opponents, as did he in the earlier inhuman issues. I think it's weird that he chose to stand still when facing someone who can't fly.

True they even point out in WWH that BB's a physical threat to previous incarnations Hulk. He's probably above Class60 since the MasterBlow has nearly one shotted Hulk in the past.

Flight is a good point as well. Forgot he could do that.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
True they even point out in WWH that BB's a physical threat to previous incarnations Hulk. He's probably above Class60 since the MasterBlow has nearly one shotted Hulk in the past.

Flight is a good point as well. Forgot he could do that.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/random%20comic%20feats/Silent_War_003_011.jpg

I wonder what sort of effect that would have on people without MM's powers. It would definitely be painful :/

Originally posted by llagrok
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/random%20comic%20feats/Silent_War_003_011.jpg

I wonder what sort of effect that would have on people without MM's powers. It would definitely be painful :/

omg

What's that from?

Basically cosign with everything Grok's said.

Black Bolt's powers extend so far beyond the scream, and Hulk's never shown to be capable of healing from molecular manipulation on the level of what Black Bolt can do.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
omg

What's that from? Silent War, near the end... don't remember the issue.

Originally posted by SnazzySmurph
Basically cosign with everything Grok's said.

Black Bolt's powers extend so far beyond the scream, and Hulk's never shown to be capable of healing from molecular manipulation on the level of what Black Bolt can do.
I think Hulk's been turned to stone, only to revert back in a single panel.
he's been miniturised a few times, same deal. nothing like that is really gonna work.

it's not the healing, it's just that he's powerful internally, as well as externally, and can resist or revert back from, whatever matter manipulation is done to him.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
omg

What's that from?

Silent War 3.

In 5 you get to see Medusa masturbate with her hair, truth.

Originally posted by janus77
I think Hulk's been turned to stone, only to revert back in a single panel.
he's been miniturised a few times, same deal. nothing like that is really gonna work.

it's not the healing, it's just that he's powerful internally, as well as externally, and can resist or revert back from, whatever matter manipulation is done to him. Scan, issue number...?

Besides, Black Bolt's matter manipulation control is insane. I'd like to see Hulk heal the damage from someone as skilled as he... what would Hulk do if he were turned into mist? antimatter? If he were kept that way until Black Bolt screamed or liquified the subject?

Originally posted by SnazzySmurph
Scan, issue number...?

Besides, Black Bolt's matter manipulation control is insane. I'd like to see Hulk heal the damage from someone as skilled as he... what would Hulk do if he were turned into mist? antimatter? If he were kept that way until Black Bolt screamed or liquified the subject?

He was turned to the stone by the Grey Gargoyle, like a million other people have been. They revert back in an hour, and petrification is a bit different from matter manipulation.

Originally posted by llagrok
He was turned to the stone by the Grey Gargoyle, like a million other people have been. They revert back in an hour, and petrification is a bit different from matter manipulation.

Indeed.

And - to smurph - what's with only cosigning Llagrok?

I said it first. *sniffle sniffle*.

.

Originally posted by janus77
I think Hulk's been turned to stone, only to revert back in a single panel.
he's been miniturised a few times, same deal. nothing like that is really gonna work.

it's not the healing, it's just that he's powerful internally, as well as externally, and can resist or revert back from, whatever matter manipulation is done to him. shocklaugh

Originally posted by Soljer
Indeed.

And - to smurph - what's with only cosigning Llagrok?

I said it first. *sniffle sniffle*.

. Oh yeah... Llagrok didn't do anything til the end of the page... hmm

We'll retcon it.

It was a reality manipulator, I tell you!

Originally posted by SnazzySmurph
Oh yeah... Llagrok didn't do anything til the end of the page... hmm

We'll retcon it.

It was a reality manipulator, I tell you!

Meh - the Hulk will just heal the thread back...

Damnit.

Originally posted by Soljer
Meh - the Hulk will just heal the thread back...

Damnit. See, that's what the "Where are people getting this from" should be about.

Originally posted by llagrok
He was turned to the stone by the Grey Gargoyle, like a million other people have been. They revert back in an hour, and petrification is a bit different from matter manipulation.

It was Grey Hulk and he was moving while still turned to stone, Grey Gargoyle was pretty shocked and it was a pretty good feat.

Still BB is on a whole other level I mean, its Grey Gargoyle after all...

Originally posted by Soljer
And where do you get this from?

Random supposition? No, on panel feats and dialogue.
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/13.gif

Originally posted by llagrok
Silent War 3.

In 5 you get to see Medusa masturbate with her hair, truth.

We demand additional scans. durhuc naughty

I need to see that to believe it

Originally posted by Blair Wind


I need to see that to believe it indeed i demand proof!!!!!!

Originally posted by lando005
indeed i demand proof!!!!!! cosign, i didn't see that.

and i just looked again.

People are stupid and take whatever hyperbole Spider-man spits out as law. That's why.

Blackbolt is more overrated here than SS is, btw. There should be a thread on that.


Edit: WWH would still get his ass whooped by BB, without PIS. WWH is a horrible event though.

Originally posted by SnazzySmurph
Basically cosign with everything Grok's said.

Black Bolt's powers extend so far beyond the scream, and Hulk's never shown to be capable of healing from molecular manipulation on the level of what Black Bolt can do.

So I take it that Black Bolt can do the same to Thanos as well?

Originally posted by SouthSpawn
So I take it that Black Bolt can do the same to Thanos as well? And, pray tell, why would that be at all relevant?

Originally posted by SnazzySmurph
And, pray tell, why would that be at all relevant?

Well, if he could do it to the Hulk that easy, I am sure it would work on anyone with a physical body right?

Originally posted by SouthSpawn
Well, if he could do it to the Hulk that easy, I am sure it would work on anyone with a physical body right? Wow.

When matter and energy manipulation on the level of Thanos become a key part of Hulks powerset, lemme know.

Hell, Hulk doesn't even have the durability of Thanos throughout any of his appearances. Perhaps the potential, though he's certainly never reached it.

Otherwise, try to find someone even remotely relevant to compare Hulk to. And no, "having a body" does not qualify.

Kthx.

Originally posted by SnazzySmurph
Wow.

When matter and energy manipulation on the level of Thanos become a key part of Hulks powerset, lemme know.

Hell, Hulk doesn't even have the durability of Thanos throughout any of his appearances. Perhaps the potential, though he's certainly never reached it.

Otherwise, try to find someone even remotely relevant to compare Hulk to. And no, "having a body" does not qualify.

Kthx.

The whole point of this, is that WWH is a NEW HULK, and not like the other Hulks. Get IT???

So, it's not far fetch for this one to beat the living hell out of BB, because he ain't the same guy as before.

This is a Hulk that can survive BB's attacks, and might have the same level as durability as someone like Thanos.

But no, it's PIS if this "NEW" Hulk gets to those levels.

My whole point, is that we are seeing a new character here, so he might be on levels that some don't want to admit.

As mentioned, Thanos has an eternal physiology and possesses innate molecular control over his body. He has a reason to be able to resist matter manipulation. As does the Surfer. As does Superman.

The Hulk, however, does not.

Originally posted by Soljer
As mentioned, Thanos has an eternal physiology and possesses innate molecular control over his body. He has a reason to be able to resist matter manipulation. As does the Surfer. As does Superman.

The Hulk, however, does not.

Superman has innate molecular control over his body?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Superman has innate molecular control over his body?

No, he has a reason to be able to resist matter manipulation.

Originally posted by Soljer
No, he has a reason to be able to resist matter manipulation.

Such as?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Such as?

It has, on panel, been attempted and failed to work before?

Something that the Hulk cannot boast.

Originally posted by Soljer
It has, on panel, been attempted and failed to work before?

Thats a feat not a reason.

Originally posted by Soljer
Something that the Hulk cannot boast.

De-evolution ray failed. Glazier wasn't able to transform him into glass. Fun stuff.

Feats can suffice as reasons when discussing characters who have demonstrated unexplainable or unrealistic powers/abilities. Why can he do it? Because he has in the past.

Originally posted by Soljer
Feats can suffice as reasons when discussing characters who have demonstrated unexplainable or unrealistic powers/abilities. Why can he do it? Because he has in the past.

Dodging the second half of my post I see herbnone

how come no one has mentioned the Medusa thing again? ermm

Originally posted by Soljer
It has, on panel, been attempted and failed to work before?

Something that the Hulk cannot boast. yea he's also pulled together a spacial distortion with his bare hands, doesn't mean in buy it.... could you state the reason y sups cant be converted

Originally posted by SouthSpawn
The whole point of this, is that WWH is a NEW HULK, and not like the other Hulks. Get IT???

So, it's not far fetch for this one to beat the living hell out of BB, because he ain't the same guy as before.

This is a Hulk that can survive BB's attacks, and might have the same level as durability as someone like Thanos.

But no, it's PIS if this "NEW" Hulk gets to those levels.

My whole point, is that we are seeing a new character here, so he might be on levels that some don't want to admit. Yes.

So?

His durability has gone up. His strength has gone up. Hell, his speed has probably gone up too.

So?

He has no matter manipulation. He doesn't have a completely alien, far more evolved physiology, surrounded by a near impenatrable bio aura that's resisted matter manip on panel. His body wasn't changed by a demi-god to be cosmically glazed.

Do you even understand the concept of matter manipulation?

Originally posted by lando005
yea he's also pulled together a spacial distortion with his bare hands, doesn't mean in buy it.... could you state the reason y sups cant be converted

His bioelectric aura. And Hyper-solar-metabolism.

Same thing that explains the rest of his unexplainable powers.

Originally posted by SnazzySmurph
He doesn't have a completely alien, far more evolved physiology, surrounded by a near impenatrable bio aura that's resisted matter manip on panel.

Thats true. But he does have an alien, far more evolved physiology that's resisted matter manip on panel.

Originally posted by lando005
oh dont worry we havent forgotten good. i better see some damn scannage ermm

Originally posted by Soljer
His bioelectric aura. And Hyper-solar-metabolism.

Same thing that explains the rest of his unexplainable powers. that would not enable him to grab an energy distortion and there are other things like how his body just seemingly doesn't seem to top out even thought there has been no change to his physiology and even if every cell in his body stored energy he should have maxed out by now

sometimes i think dc just makes it up as the go along with him

What are some of WWH's feats that put him way above the other hulk's.

Originally posted by llagrok
I PM'ed everyone except you the pictures.

You only get this.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/random%20comic%20feats/CHK13-cry.jpg that's alot of PMs. i call bull****.

ermm

edit: btw, that doesn't even look like her.

Originally posted by SnazzySmurph
Yes.

So?

His durability has gone up. His strength has gone up. Hell, his speed has probably gone up too.

So?

He has no matter manipulation. He doesn't have a completely alien, far more evolved physiology, surrounded by a near impenatrable bio aura that's resisted matter manip on panel. His body wasn't changed by a demi-god to be cosmically glazed.

Do you even understand the concept of matter manipulation?

If he could no be affected by the H.E's devolving ray, than it's not far fetch that he could survive blackbolts powers. It's a comic you know? Take the laws of science out of it.

Originally posted by SouthSpawn
If he could no be affected by the H.E's devolving ray, than it's not far fetch that he could survive blackbolts powers. It's a comic you know? Take the laws of science out of it. Considering that the abilities are nothing alike, yes it is.

If we take the science out, we have nothing but your speculation to debate with.

Originally posted by SnazzySmurph
Considering that the abilities are nothing alike, yes it is.

If we take the science out, we have nothing but your speculation to debate with.

Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree than.

Have a good one.

Im happy to see some rational people tackling this Hulk b.s. I think when its all said and done some writers are going to have egg on their face. And since when are we comparing Hulk to Thanos? Only time I remember seeing them share a panel, Hulk got pimped slapped.

Originally posted by lando005
that would not enable him to grab an energy distortion and there are other things like how his body just seemingly doesn't seem to top out even thought there has been no change to his physiology and even if every cell in his body stored energy he should have maxed out by now

sometimes i think dc just makes it up as the go along with him

he uses energy that needs to be replaced... he doesnt just soak it up and leave it there...

i want the scans...

Originally posted by llagrok
He proved you wrong in everything you said, and you want to agree to disagree. If you suggested that we all agreed on you being retarded, you would get a better response.



If A FREAKIN COMIC fool, we can have our own opinions, because guess what. Comics aren't real fool.

It's a fantasy, and you can have any character beat anyone you want. Because that's the way it is. Heck, they even had squirel girl beat Thanos, because in the comic world, we can "imagine" anything we want.

Every time the Hulk wins, it's PIS to you people.
Well get over it dude, he beat the crap out of BB, so that makes him better than BB this time around.

I would love to have this Hulk Smack Thanos Punk Azz around to.
Just to piss some people off.

I have my opinion that WWH > BB.

Originally posted by SouthSpawn
If A FREAKIN COMIC fool, we can have our own opinions, because guess what. Comics aren't real fool.

It's a fantasy, and you can have any character beat anyone you want. Because that's the way it is. Heck, they even had squirel girl beat Thanos, because in the comic world, we can "imagine" anything we want.

Every time the Hulk wins, it's PIS to you people.
Well get over it dude, he beat the crap out of BB, so that makes him better than BB this time around.

I would love to have this Hulk Smack Thanos Punk Azz around to.
Just to piss some people off.

I have my opinion that WWH > BB.

Hmmm....

Captain America's beaten the Hulk.

Cap was just better than the Hulk that time around?

Cap > Hulk?

.

Originally posted by Soljer
Hmmm....

Captain America's beaten the Hulk.

Cap was just better than the Hulk that time around?

Cap > Hulk?

.

Cap beat Hulk?
Really?
When and how?

I'm not defending anyone here
but does there exist a potential level that Hulk can get to
in order to resist BBs matter manipulation?

Originally posted by llagrok
It's crystal, not medusa.

You don't even know the inhumans Well.....


i got nothing. haermm

edit

Originally posted by Alfheim
edit

le gasp! i get it now!!!!

They're making Hulk into Doomsday! It's going to be death of Superman ala Hulk and Sentry!

edit: NO! dammit, your post was evidence! :

Originally posted by Soljer
As mentioned, Thanos has an eternal physiology and possesses innate molecular control over his body. He has a reason to be able to resist matter manipulation. As does the Surfer. As does Superman.

The Hulk, however, does not.

Didnt they just say that Grey Hulk resisted being turned to stone? Isnt being turned stone matter manipulation. Furthermore he has an upgrade. Hulk has been said to be able to adapt to any envinroment and when pissed his body has been able to physically affect energy, such as lifting a being made of pure energy.

Originally posted by NiñoAraña


le gasp! i get it now!!!!

They're making Hulk into Doomsday! It's going to be death of Superman ala Hulk and Sentry!

edit: NO! dammit, your post was evidence! :

I improved it.

There was a person called Galzier who turned people into glass (I'm sure someone will claim that such a feat was done without matter manip) who was apparently unable to transmute Hulk.

As for the fight . . . I just read through SilentWar

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
There was a person called Galzier who turned people into glass (I'm sure someone will claim that such a feat was done without matter manip) who was apparently unable to transmute Hulk.

As for the fight . . . I just read through SilentWar

You mean the woman who made one appearence in Hulk 262 I think it was from 1981?

Talk about your obscure characters! she was only able to transform people (and her dog and the floor and herself eventually) during a full moon and her hands were made of Glass.

I'm not sure if it was pure matter manipulation as she could only do it during a full moon and had to ask Bruce to come back when she could turn him into glass (under the pretense that she was merely going to copy his image in Glass).

It may have been the result of a curse or an enchantment?

Still She wasn't in Black Bolts or even Grey Gargoyles league...

Originally posted by Soljer
Being bonded to something and ripping apart is not the same as withstanding having you atoms actually reconfigure and change from carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen into...say...Iron.


When Grey Gargoyle truned Hulk (Grey Hulk) to stone his healing factor had him back to normal again within moments.

Originally posted by Hercules
You mean the woman who made one appearence in Hulk 262 I think it was from 1981?

Talk about your obscure characters! she was only able to transform people (and her dog and the floor and herself eventually) during a full moon and her hands were made of Glass.

I'm not sure if it was pure matter manipulation as she could only do it during a full moon and had to ask Bruce to come back when she could turn him into glass (under the pretense that she was merely going to copy his image in Glass).

It may have been the result of a curse or an enchantment?

Still She wasn't in Black Bolts or even Grey Gargoyles league...

That would be the one. Transmutation is transmutation though

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That would be the one. Transmutation is transmutation though

It is but I suspect there are degrees of ability, seeing as Grey Gargoyle did manage to turn Hulk to stone if only for a moment.

Pure matter manipulation, should enable the weidler to transmute the victim into anthing they want to imo.

Glazier had never tried to transmute a superhuman before, only normal men, so her powers could have been very weak as well as limited (only able to do it on a full moon).

To say that hulk resisted her so he could resist Black Bolt is a stretch to say the least.

Black Bolt is class 100 when he wants to be. He has gone toe to toe with Thing and beaten him down, same with Hulk.

Originally posted by Hercules
It is but I suspect there are degrees of ability, seeing as Grey Gargoyle did manage to turn Hulk to stone if only for a moment.

Pure matter manipulation, should enable the weidler to transmute the victim into anthing they want to imo.

Glazier had never tried to transmute a superhuman before, only normal men, so her powers could have been very weak as well as limited (only able to do it on a full moon).

To say that hulk resisted her so he could resist Black Bolt is a stretch to say the least.

It wouldnt be a stretch though to say he resisted GG and therefore could resist BB because that was a weak version of the Hulk. It could be argued logically that an upgraded Hulk could resist something more complicated and powerful.

Anyway im pretty sure you are arguing against Glazier being used as evidence not GG. I just thought I would add that bit.

Originally posted by Alfheim
It wouldnt be a stretch though to say he resisted GG and therefore could resist BB because that was a weak version of the Hulk. It could be argued logically that an upgraded Hulk could resist something more complicated and powerful.

Anyway im pretty sure you are arguing against Glazier being used as evidence not GG. I just thought I would add that bit.

Alf, what was that you said about being taken out of context?

I was using Grey Gargoyle, only as an example of how matter manipulators seem to have varing power levels...

Hulk has proven time and again that he can 'power out' of matter manipulation.

turn him to stone, he breaks out of it. shrink him, same deal...

BB maybe a different league of matter manipulator but, the results should be the same. unless someone can present an argument otherwise (an argument rather than invective).

Originally posted by Hercules
Alf, what was that you said about being taken out of context?

Yeah I also said im not perfect that doesnt mean that other people dont do it either. At least I admit when I do it and dont accuse other people of backtracking.

Originally posted by Hercules

I was using Grey Gargoyle, only as an example of how matter manipulators seem to have varing power levels...

Right ok.......I didnt say you werent....but I got the impression you were implying that GG was a more legiitimate feat because he had tried it on the Hulk , while Glazier had only tried it on superhumans. I was also adding my 2cents.

Originally posted by janus77
Hulk has proven time and again that he can 'power out' of matter manipulation.

turn him to stone, he breaks out of it. shrink him, same deal...

BB maybe a different league of matter manipulator but, the results should be the same. unless someone can present an argument otherwise (an argument rather than invective).

Well I was pointing out that the Gazier feat isn't the best evidence to present as Hulk being able to resist BB's manipulation.

Problem is, the conclusion of the fight between BlackBolt and Hulk took place off panel, for all we know he could have tried to turn Hulk to stone and Hulk could of resisted it.

Then again he may not have attempted it...shrug

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah I also said im not perfect that doesnt mean that other people dont do it either. At least I admit when I do it and dont accuse other people of backtracking.

Who was backtracking, my intial post said.



I thought that was quite clearly stating that the GG seems to be better at it than Glazier?

EDIT: sorry missed your edit, no, I was saying that Glazier had never attempted to transmute a superhuman like Hulk before, she had only ever done it on normal men. So her powers were never shown to be any great shakes.

the thing is that arguments are generally presented ass-backwards, when it comes to characters that people don't like.

instead of trying to conceive of a reason for suggesting a form of attack might work, it's "well, prove that he can withstand x!"... thereby reducing the whole thing to meaninglessness as, usually these stipulations have no answer - because the character's never been in the +exact+ situation as the hypothetical versus match in which he's placed.

Hulk has shown the ability to return to his proper form irrespective of matter manipulation or magic.
as everything Hulk related depends upon his level of anger/stress, his durability and resistance at present should be exponentially higher than in the past.

him beating the snot out of BB wasn't much of a feat, whether or not he was attacked with matter manipulation. I'm waiting for the Zom thing. seriously hope the whole event takes place on the astral plane or something...

Originally posted by Hercules
Who was backtracking, my intial post said.

...sorry im not sure exactly what your refering to here. Sorry are you asking me who was backtracking your post? Sorry you lost me......

Originally posted by Hercules

I thought that was quite clearly stating the GG seems to be better at it than Glazier?

Right.....I didnt say you werent......in fact im pretty sure you were saying that. What did you think that I thought you were saying GG was a bad example as well?

This is what I thought you said. We cant use Glazier as a piece of evidence to say that Hulk can resist matter transmutation you seemed to imply that GG was much better....I then added my 2cents I said that an upgraded Hulk could take something even more extreme. I wasnt disagreeing with anything you said I was just adding an extra point.

Originally posted by janus77
the thing is that arguments are generally presented ass-backwards, when it comes to characters that people don't like.

instead of trying to conceive of a reason for suggesting a form of attack might work, it's "well, prove that he can withstand x!"... thereby reducing the whole thing to meaninglessness as, usually these stipulations have no answer - because the character's never been in the +exact+ situation as the hypothetical versus match in which he's placed.

Hulk has shown the ability to return to his proper form irrespective of matter manipulation or magic.
as everything Hulk related depends upon his level of anger/stress, his durability and resistance at present should be exponentially higher than in the past.

him beating the snot out of BB wasn't much of a feat, whether or not he was attacked with matter manipulation. I'm waiting for the Zom thing. seriously hope the whole event takes place on the astral plane or something...

I actually do like the Hulk, how do you think I know stuff like issue numbers and even years?

I have no problem with Hulk being shown resisting BB's matter manipulation but I also enjoy playing devils advocate, I like a debate to go beyond "Hulk wins cause he is strong!" which is for certain "fans" the begining and end of their evidence.

I don't even have a problem with Hulk stopping Juggernaut but if something isn't 100% conclusive to me then I will question it and see what people come back with.

Debating is fun for me, I don't stress it and I enjoy the banter.

Originally posted by Alfheim
...sorry im not sure exactly what your refering to here. Sorry are you asking me who was backtracking your post? Sorry you lost me......



Right.....I didnt say you werent......in fact im pretty sure you were saying that. What did you think that I thought you were saying GG was a bad example as well?

This is what I thought you said. We cant use Glazier as a piece of evidence to say that Hulk can resist matter transmutation you seemed to imply that GG was much better....I then added my 2cents I said that an upgraded Hulk could take something even more extreme. I wasnt disagreeing with anything you said I was just adding an extra point.

My mistake, I thought you were saying I was back tracking, I saw your edit after I posted.

Fair enough, Grey Gargoyle imo is a better manipulator than Glazier based on feats as other than transmuting some men, a dog and her floor to glass, she really has none.

Originally posted by Hercules
My mistake, I thought you were saying I was back tracking, I saw your edit after I posted.

Oh no no. I just got the impression you saw me b*ching at somebody in another thread about taking my **** out of context. All I was saying was yeah sometimes I do it but when it actually does happen I dont say **** like "Im not taking things out of context your just changing your argument because its crap."

Originally posted by Hercules

Fair enough, Grey Gargoyle imo is a better manipulator than Glazier based on feats as other than transmuting some men, a dog and her floor to glass, she really has none.

Sure.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Oh no no. I just got the impression you saw me b*ching at somebody in another thread about taking my **** out of context. All I was saying was yeah sometimes I do it but when it actually does happen I dont say **** like "Im not taking things out of context your just changing your argument because its crap."



Sure.

Nah, I didn't think you were b!tching in the other threads, just thought that you had taken me out of context, my post probably wasn't the best way to point that out though.

Originally posted by Hercules
Nah, I didn't think you were b!tching in the other threads, just thought that you had taken me out of context, my post probably wasn't the best way to point that out though.

No worries.

Originally posted by Hercules
I actually do like the Hulk, how do you think I know stuff like issue numbers and even years?

I have no problem with Hulk being shown resisting BB's matter manipulation but I also enjoy playing devils advocate, I like a debate to go beyond "Hulk wins cause he is strong!" which is for certain "fans" the begining and end of their evidence.

I don't even have a problem with Hulk stopping Juggernaut but if something isn't 100% conclusive to me then I will question it and see what people come back with.

Debating is fun for me, I don't stress it and I enjoy the banter.
my previous post wasn't aimed at what you wrote, it's a general gripe, just posts that I've seen and wondered "wtf? .." but never bothered engaging with.


as to the "Hulk wins cause he is strong" ... essentially that's true. he is ridiculously - godly - strong. and all his attendant attributes are powered by that, so same goes for durability, regeneration etc etc ...

Superman wins because he's superman
flash because he speedblitzes ...

it's when an interesting versus thread is created, that arguments can evolve to demonstrate creative application of established powers, comparative debating abilities and superior comic knowledge.

Hulk v BlackBolt could be one of those situations (for Black Bolt) if people weren't stuck in a rut with "matter manipulation" when that's been shown to fail with weaker Hulks ... to which the comeback is, "they weren't as powerful as Black Bolt" ... which really isn't saying much as Hulk wasn't as powerful as he presently is... see goes nowhere. if anything it's in Hulk's favour as he's demonstrated resistance/recovery from such forms of attack at a level, whereas we've not seen BB do that to anyone as powerful as Hulk.

Hulk has been put down by BB before. Classic Hulk loses.

Originally posted by janus77
my previous post wasn't aimed at what you wrote, it's a general gripe, just posts that I've seen and wondered "wtf? .." but never bothered engaging with.


as to the "Hulk wins cause he is strong" ... essentially that's true. he is ridiculously - godly - strong. and all his attendant attributes are powered by that, so same goes for durability, regeneration etc etc ...

Superman wins because he's superman
flash because he speedblitzes ...

it's when an interesting versus thread is created, that arguments can evolve to demonstrate creative application of established powers, comparative debating abilities and superior comic knowledge.

Hulk v BlackBolt could be one of those situations (for Black Bolt) if people weren't stuck in a rut with "matter manipulation" when that's been shown to fail with weaker Hulks ... to which the comeback is, "they weren't as powerful as Black Bolt" ... which really isn't saying much as Hulk wasn't as powerful as he presently is... see goes nowhere. if anything it's in Hulk's favour as he's demonstrated resistance/recovery from such forms of attack at a level, whereas we've not seen BB do that to anyone as powerful as Hulk.

Strength alone doesn't win Hulk battles against beings who are far more versatile than him though is the crux of it for me.

His healing factor, durabilty and in some instances his fighting skill have been a major factor in him overcoming his foes, withstanding that whisper for instance was a durabilty feat and pivotal in him winning that fight.

I like people to expand a little on their reasons and not dismiss evidence with "cause Hulk stronger".

I agree with you on the matter manipulators but its an easy comeback, as others have resisted GG in the past and Glazier was a one shot and a weaker Hulk resisted GG, so as it can be argued that if a weak Hulk can resist it then a much stronger incarnation can withstand BB.

It can also be argued that because GG couldn't stop a weaker Hulk then hes just a poor manipulator and no where near BB's level.

There are two sides to everything and with comics it is quite literally, if the writer wants it to happen it happens, its what makes debating comic book characters so diverse as a lot of stuff is open to interpretation.

To use a bad pun, nothing is set in stone...

As far as turning back from stone; everyone did after a certain period of time. EVERYONE 'healed' from it, so to speak. The Hulk just did so faster because he heals faster.

Originally posted by Hercules


It can also be argued that because GG couldn't stop a weaker Hulk then hes just a poor manipulator and no where near BB's level.

There are two sides to everything and with comics it is quite literally, if the writer wants it to happen it happens, its what makes debating comic book characters so diverse as a lot of stuff is open to interpretation.

To use a bad pun, nothing is set in stone...

That argument could be used if you were going to have Grey Hulk vs BB. Obvoulsy in that case it would apply because as you said in comparsion GG is much weaker to BB.

I dont see how that argument would apply to an upgraded Hulk. Its like saying somebody who can beat up two people easily while suffering from the flu cant beat up four people in full health. It seems illogical because logic dictates if he can withstand a certain type of attack in a weakened state he should be able to take more of that attack in a stronger state.

Originally posted by Soljer
As far as turning back from stone; everyone did after a certain period of time. EVERYONE 'healed' from it, so to speak. The Hulk just did so faster because he heals faster.

I dont think they healed from it....the transmutation ran out. Im pretty sure he can turn wood into stone and it would turn back eventually. Wood doesnt "heal".

Originally posted by Alfheim
That argument could be used if you were going to have Grey Hulk vs BB. Obvoulsy in that case it would apply because as you said in comparsion GG is much weaker to BB.

I dont see how that argument would apply to an upgraded Hulk. Its like saying somebody who can beat up two people easily while suffering from the flu cant beat up four people in full health. It seems illogical because logic dictates if he can withstand a certain type of attack in a weakened state he should be able to take more of that attack in a stronger state.

No, think about it, the argument can work both ways, A weak Hulk proved too strong ulitmatley for GG.

One point of view is, well a weak Hulk was breaking out of matter manipulation, think what the strongest Hulk ever could do!

Another point of view is GG is a very poor matter manipulator cause he wasn't powerful enough to stop one of the weakest incarnations of the Hulk.

Both these arguments are being used throughout this thread by one side or the other, one person may percieve something one way, another person another.

Your looking at it from the first point of view, that a stronger hulk will take more of that attack but the other person is using the logic that GG was a wuss in the first place and the fact he couldn't stop a weaker Hulk proves that.

Neither argument is wrong, neither is "illogical" as yes a stronger Hulk will have better resistance to that attack and probably wouldn't even be fazed by Grey Gargoyle but there is also the school of thought that if a being ten times more powerful than him tried it on the stronger hulk, the outcome could be different.

Its looking at the scenario from different angles, thats all and thats what most of this thread has been about.

Originally posted by Hercules
No, think about it, the argument can work both ways, A weak Hulk proved too strong ulitmatley for GG.

One point of view is, well a weak Hulk was breaking out of matter manipulation, think what the strongest Hulk ever could do!

Another point of view is GG is a very poor matter manipulator cause he wasn't powerful enough to stop one of the weakest incarnations of the Hulk.

Both these arguments are being used throughout this thread by one side or the other, one person may percieve something one way, another person another.

Your looking at it from the first point of view, that a stronger hulk will take more of that attack but the other person is using the logic that GG was a wuss in the first place and the fact he couldn't stop a weaker Hulk proves that.

Neither argument is wrong, neither is "illogical" as yes a stronger Hulk will have better resistance to that attack and probably wouldn't even be fazed by Grey Gargoyle but there is also the school of thought that if a being ten times more powerful than him tried it on the stronger hulk, the outcome could be different.

Its looking at the scenario from different angles, thats all and thats what most of this thread has been about.

Wellllllll...yeah. In all fairness you could use that argument...but the upgraded point of view seems to be the most likely.

This depends though. How much greater is BB to GG in terms of matter transmutation? How much is WWH greater than Grey Hulk? Lets say we could calculate it and the WWH power increase were the same as BBs superiority to GG then we could argue that the upgrade is the most likely conclusion.

Ok do we know for certain? No, but we do know that WWH does seem to be much greater than Grey Hulk. I need confirmation on this but did Svage Hulk take a scream from BB and get Koed? Ok if this true then it is logical to assume that an upgraded Hulk could withstand it.

Hmmm I never realised Black Bolt was so powerful. I thought he was just a scream that had the same effect as Banshee's. Very interesting.

Medusa pics would be good

Originally posted by Alfheim
Wellllllll...yeah. In all fairness you could use that argument...but the upgraded point of view seems to be the most likely.

This depends though. How much greater is BB to GG in terms of matter transmutation? How much is WWH greater than Grey Hulk? Lets say we could calculate it and the WWH power increase were the same as BBs superiority to GG then we could argue that the upgrade is the most likely conclusion.

Ok do we know for certain? No, but we do know that WWH does seem to be much greater than Grey Hulk. I need confirmation on this but did Svage Hulk take a scream from BB and get Koed? Ok if this true then it is logical to assume that an upgraded Hulk could withstand it.

Savage Hulk took a whisper and got KO'd as far as I'm aware, which yes shows how much the current Hulk has grown in power.

Yes you can and people are making the argument that if lets say current Hulk is ten times stronger than Grey Hulk (I'm not saying he is just ten times stronger, this is for arguments sake) and BB is ten times the matter manipulator that GG is (again just for arguments sake) then the Grey Hulk vs GG fight is a really good indicator of how it would go down and Hulk would resist it.

However the other camp could say well BB is 12 times as powerful as GG and would be able to affect even current uber Hulk.

Thing is, we just don't know for sure and both parties could be right, what we do know is this Hulk, beat BB, how we arn't sure but he beat him.

The variables are, did he use the scream? did Hulk resist the scream? did he try and turn him to stone? did Hulk resist this? etc etc.

For all we know Hulk could have used the old "whats that over there" line and produced a Bugs Bunny style Acme sledge hammer and hit him over the head with it.

The Hulk fans have actually got one hell of an argument for him resisiting BB's matter manipulation and/or scream, cause Hulk was the guy left standing.

The other argument is, it was PIS and BB didn't scream or use the full extent of his powers.

Until we get to see the fight on panel in a flashback or something, the debate will run and run.

Originally posted by Hercules
Savage Hulk took a whisper and got KO'd as far as I'm aware, which yes shows how much the current Hulk has grown in power.

Yes you can and people are making the argument that if lets say current Hulk is ten times stronger than Grey Hulk (I'm not saying he is just ten times stronger, this is for arguments sake) and BB is ten times the matter manipulator that GG is (again just for arguments sake) then the Grey Hulk vs GG fight is a really good indicator of how it would go down and Hulk would resist it.

However the other camp could say well BB is 12 times as powerful as GG and would be able to affect even current uber Hulk.

Thing is, we just don't know for sure and both parties could be right, what we do know is this Hulk, beat BB, how we arn't sure but he beat him.

The variables are, did he use the scream? did Hulk resist the scream? did he try and turn him to stone? did Hulk resist this? etc etc.

For all we know Hulk could have used the old "whats that over there" line and produced a Bugs Bunny style Acme sledge hammer and hit him over the head with it.

The Hulk fans have actually got one hell of an argument for him resisiting BB's matter manipulation and/or scream, cause Hulk was the guy left standing.

The other argument is, it was PIS and BB didn't scream or use the full extent of his powers.

Until we get to see the fight on panel in a flashback or something, the debate will run and run.

Ok I totally agree. Since we are lacking in information we cant say for sure which one is the most logical argument. Therefore both arguments are valid.

Grey Gargoyle doesn't manipulate matter in the same way that Black Bolt does, I wish people would stop calling him an MM. He petrifies people for a limited amount of time and has no control over his power at all.

Originally posted by Soljer
Hmmm....

Captain America's beaten the Hulk.

Cap was just better than the Hulk that time around?

Cap > Hulk?

.

Let's see Cap beat WW Hulk.

Originally posted by SouthSpawn
Let's see Cap beat WW Hulk. . --- Point







O --- Your head