Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

http://lok.3dactionplanet.gamespy.com/Images/Characters/Sr_Raziel.jpg Vs. http://www.wowwiki.com/images/thumb/7/7b/Arthas_Artwork.jpg/200px-Arthas_Artwork.jpg

Raziel
Vs.
Ner'Zhul, the Lich King

Both at their prime!

The setting is a beautiful, big medieval city somewhere random!



I got the idea of this thread trough the discussion between Burning Thought and Darth Extecute!

haermm

The lich kings feets in his current state are unknown as a fact..yet we can assume he has power still of his older form, over the minds of the undead, raise the undead...also powers of the Death knight and paladins
although still having paladin powers is speculation since his powers change

Raziel has powers over fire,air,ice/water,wind and dark and light and he also has telekenetic powers, also he can return to physical form if there are dead bodies nearby, he also has speed on his side, i believe hes a lot faster than the lich king is and incredibly agile and can go immaterial

i would say Raziel wins 6/10 and 8/10 if the lich kings soul is reavable.

another note is when will the battle stop, raziel can go immaterial and still survive after his physical body is gone and is then debatably invincible so ime assuming it ends when he goes spectoral?

I'd give the Lich King 8/10 after making some research..

The soul of Ner'Zhul is caged in Frostmourn, which is the sword of the Lich King.. Therefore I consider his soul safeguarded from being damaged in any way, as the only thing that keeps it from being whole is if the Lich King decide to reject the soul of Ner'Zhul.. Which he did not, as he picked the sword up.. Therefore the soul is out of reach for any theft..

The battle wouldn't end when he turns spectral, as the Frostmourn can strike spirits, hollow and etheral beings..

To walk trough the lives of the Lich King then, in order to compare the two..

He was a master shaman.. Meaning he has the power of restoration, to heal himself and to understand the spirit-world.. He therefore also possess the powers of lighting, water, fire and earth.. He also has spiritual powers to have him evolve physicaly in strength and mind..

He also has a past as a Death Knight and a Paladin, but I dont think I even need to go there as you probably know what it means.. Bringer of undead.. Bringer of life.. Etc. etc..


Also, one hit with Frostmourn and he will both drain health and energy, as well as gain parts of Raziel's powers.. Also, more damage he inflicts with the blade, the more of Raziel's powers he gain..

Originally posted by Estacado
haermm

What? haermm

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl
What? haermm
Raziel is just as unbeatable as Kain....313

Originally posted by Darth Extecute
I'd give the Lich King 8/10 after making some research..

The soul of Ner'Zhul is caged in Frostmourn, which is the sword of the Lich King.. Therefore I consider his soul safeguarded from being damaged in any way, as the only thing that keeps it from being whole is if the Lich King decide to reject the soul of Ner'Zhul.. Which he did not, as he picked the sword up.. Therefore the soul is out of reach for any theft..

The battle wouldn't end when he turns spectral, as the Frostmourn can strike spirits, hollow and etheral beings..

To walk trough the lives of the Lich King then, in order to compare the two..

He was a master shaman.. Meaning he has the power of restoration, to heal himself and to understand the spirit-world.. He therefore also possess the powers of lighting, water, fire and earth.. He also has spiritual powers to have him evolve physicaly in strength and mind..

He also has a past as a Death Knight and a Paladin, but I dont think I even need to go there as you probably know what it means.. Bringer of undead.. Bringer of life.. Etc. etc..


Also, one hit with Frostmourn and he will both drain health and energy, as well as gain parts of Raziel's powers.. Also, more damage he inflicts with the blade, the more of Raziel's powers he gain.. You pretty much said it. Altho, I don't know if it would be 8/10, maybe 6/10, either way Arthas wins.

Originally posted by Estacado
Raziel is just as unbeatable as Kain....313

Are you implying that Kain is just as easy to defeat for Ner'Zhul as Raziel is?

Originally posted by Darth Extecute
Are you implying that Kain is just as easy to defeat for Ner'Zhul as Raziel is?
Ask Burning Thought he is the expert.....haermm

Originally posted by Estacado
Ask Burning Thought he is the expert.....haermm

Maybe I should make a thread and have Ner'Zhul fight both

Originally posted by Darth Extecute
Maybe I should make a thread and have Ner'Zhul fight both
It's pointless the guy thinks Kain can take down the Gow and the Dmc Universe alone also he thinks that Kain can beat a pure energy guy who is able to grow into galaxy size.haermm

Originally posted by Estacado
It's pointless the guy thinks Kain can take down the Gow and the Dmc Universe alone also he thinks that Kain can beat a pure energy guy who is able to grow into galaxy size.haermm

He just doesn't know better.. But I'm here now, to teach him the real deal

Originally posted by Estacado
Raziel is just as unbeatable as Kain....313

I who suspected it would be an even fight 313

No one use this smiley: 313 !!!!

Only Raz said I can use it you can even ask him yourself.

So please do not use it.

313

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl
313

weep

131

cry

"So come then, you heroes! Come, in all your power and glory! For in the final hour, all must serve...... the one.. true.. KING!"

- Lich King


-HJBEkO5u9M

Originally posted by shin_gear
No one use this smiley: 313 !!!!

Only Raz said I can use it you can even ask him yourself.

So please do not use it. 313

Originally posted by Darth Extecute
I'd give the Lich King 8/10 after making some research..

The soul of Ner'Zhul is caged in Frostmourn, which is the sword of the Lich King.. Therefore I consider his soul safeguarded from being damaged in any way, as the only thing that keeps it from being whole is if the Lich King decide to reject the soul of Ner'Zhul.. Which he did not, as he picked the sword up.. Therefore the soul is out of reach for any theft..

The battle wouldn't end when he turns spectral, as the Frostmourn can strike spirits, hollow and etheral beings..

To walk trough the lives of the Lich King then, in order to compare the two..

He was a master shaman.. Meaning he has the power of restoration, to heal himself and to understand the spirit-world.. He therefore also possess the powers of lighting, water, fire and earth.. He also has spiritual powers to have him evolve physicaly in strength and mind..

He also has a past as a Death Knight and a Paladin, but I dont think I even need to go there as you probably know what it means.. Bringer of undead.. Bringer of life.. Etc. etc..


Also, one hit with Frostmourn and he will both drain health and energy, as well as gain parts of Raziel's powers.. Also, more damage he inflicts with the blade, the more of Raziel's powers he gain..

False, his soul is not in frostmourne, a lot of his power is in the blade, but his soul is in the helmet and the ice, when hes released..his soul is in Arthas so his soul is still fair game. Also whats to say the Frostmourne wont be broken, maybe ive forgotten, havnt played the game for a good long time but i dont remember them saying Frostmourne is invincible, i dont remember it being able to capture the power of its enemies either, only the power of the one who wields it is drained.

Also just because he has been diffrent things in his life does not mean his power stack on top of eachother, first shamans follow certain paths, not all of them at once, obviously he followed a dark path, also was he not a warlock? and ofcourse i know what paladins and death knights are but he stopped being a paladin, he is unlikely to have all the powers of a paladin still, especialyl since his power once he was fully corrupted by the sword was governed by the state of the lich king afterwards and he never used canonwise any of his abilities from the paladin path, so obviously he cannot, since there were often times such powers would be of great use

Originally posted by Estacado
Ask Burning Thought he is the expert.....haermm quit mocking people estacado.

Originally posted by Burning thought
False, his soul is not in frostmourne, a lot of his power is in the blade, but his soul is in the helmet and the ice, when hes released..his soul is in Arthas so his soul is still fair game. Also whats to say the Frostmourne wont be broken, maybe ive forgotten, havnt played the game for a good long time but i dont remember them saying Frostmourne is invincible, i dont remember it being able to capture the power of its enemies either, only the power of the one who wields it is drained.

Also just because he has been diffrent things in his life does not mean his power stack on top of eachother, first shamans follow certain paths, not all of them at once, obviously he followed a dark path, also was he not a warlock? and ofcourse i know what paladins and death knights are but he stopped being a paladin, he is unlikely to have all the powers of a paladin still, especialyl since his power once he was fully corrupted by the sword was governed by the state of the lich king afterwards and he never used canonwise any of his abilities from the paladin path, so obviously he cannot, since there were often times such powers would be of great use

Alright, I missread.. He store souls of others in the frostmourn.. But one thing is for certain.. The frostmourn is indestructable.. It's a weapon of artifact level.. And there's more to frostmourn than the game tells.. You should take time and read books, play the RPG and attend at some blizzard sites..

So, the soul isn't stored in the sword.. But Ner'Zhul is at a much higher level than Raziel.. So, even though the foe that he fights is himself superior in intelligence and power, he still can claim his soul? It makes no sense at all.. That way he could defeat anyone with the snap of the fingers, and Raziel cannot do that..

About the shaman, your playing too much WoW.. Are you debating trough the behalf of WoW and Wc3 alone? Because behind those two games are hundreds and more hundreds of pages of LORE.. Who claims certain things about certain characters..

A shaman is one with a spiritual, elemental and natural link.. And Ner'Zhul was ONE... HELL... OF... A... SHAMAN! Most likely THE most powerful shaman that have ever walked Azeroth trough all time.. And you think he's not capable of handling spells and magic that a basic trained shaman is trained to do? He for chirst sake fooled.. tricked.. He, a mortal, played a game of minds with an Eredar Demi-God.. The lord of the Burning Legion.. A man with enormous wisdom and the Supreme Commander..

Yeah.. By now you've figured out that he fooled Kil'Jaeden..


About the warlock stuff.. I believe you're thinking of Gul'Dan.. He was a warlock.. Ner'Zhul? No.. Shaman..

And Arthas did use the powers of light, even after he got corrupted.. But by time he learnt to love the ways of the death knight instead of the paladin.. He simply forgot the arts that he had learnt.. But as his soul and mind fused with Ner'Zhul and they became the lich king, I strongly believe Ner'Zhul is capable of bringing those memories back into the mind of Arthas.. The knowledge of the light..

Actually Ner'Zhul eventually did achieve the powers of a warlock.

!

I think Raziel is fighting a loosing battle vin

I think you made a spite thread which I'll now report vin

What is a spite thread? vin

Originally posted by Darth Extecute
Alright, I missread.. He store souls of others in the frostmourn.. But one thing is for certain.. The frostmourn is indestructable.. It's a weapon of artifact level.. And there's more to frostmourn than the game tells.. You should take time and read books, play the RPG and attend at some blizzard sites..

So, the soul isn't stored in the sword.. But Ner'Zhul is at a much higher level than Raziel.. So, even though the foe that he fights is himself superior in intelligence and power, he still can claim his soul? It makes no sense at all.. That way he could defeat anyone with the snap of the fingers, and Raziel cannot do that..

About the shaman, your playing too much WoW.. Are you debating trough the behalf of WoW and Wc3 alone? Because behind those two games are hundreds and more hundreds of pages of LORE.. Who claims certain things about certain characters..

A shaman is one with a spiritual, elemental and natural link.. And Ner'Zhul was ONE... HELL... OF... A... SHAMAN! Most likely THE most powerful shaman that have ever walked Azeroth trough all time.. And you think he's not capable of handling spells and magic that a basic trained shaman is trained to do? He for chirst sake fooled.. tricked.. He, a mortal, played a game of minds with an Eredar Demi-God.. The lord of the Burning Legion.. A man with enormous wisdom and the Supreme Commander..

Yeah.. By now you've figured out that he fooled Kil'Jaeden..


About the warlock stuff.. I believe you're thinking of Gul'Dan.. He was a warlock.. Ner'Zhul? No.. Shaman..

And Arthas did use the powers of light, even after he got corrupted.. But by time he learnt to love the ways of the death knight instead of the paladin.. He simply forgot the arts that he had learnt.. But as his soul and mind fused with Ner'Zhul and they became the lich king, I strongly believe Ner'Zhul is capable of bringing those memories back into the mind of Arthas.. The knowledge of the light..

much higher level than Raziel, once again titles and such cloud judgement in debates, what would say hes much higher level? and how is he superior in intelligence and power?...intelligence yes...power? obviously not becaue he has no defence ofr his soul and would die form it being ripped from him, Raziel cannot be destroyed in teh spectoral realm, his spirit reforms, you would have to swallow his soul completly to stop him, for example the Reaver in the games. So nerzuel will be fighting a losing battle, he strikes raziels physical form and then he just ends up battleing until raziel gets a few reavers through him and drains his essence. Raziel has powers over the elements as well, so his shaman status does not overpower raziel.

Yes Raziel can devour an opponents soul, but not with a snap of his fingers, its through the wraith blade, if it touches its enemies it swallows their souls, its Kain who can do it with a snap of his fingers more or less. Raziel still has TK, telekinetic powers to shackle and manipulate both weapons and opponents, he could freeze the king in shackles and reave his soul, or toy with him by stealing the kings sword and reave him or actually have a combat with the guy, frost, flames..wind blasting the king will be incredible.

ime debating through the games and WoWwiki info, but i do not object ofcourse to you enlightening me with a link to prove certain things, yes i know in the RPG frostmourne is indestructable, regardless of what things say Frostmourne is likely to be so, but is the RPG cannon to the games?

also strongly beliveing things is a fair right, i strongly believe Raziel can win this quite easily because nothing so far could state otherwise, nothing of fact but that doesnt mean anything, its the facts, so we dont know Nerzuel can do this...he would unlikely do it even if he could, he would be unlikely to touch light magic. Hell it would probably bother him to use such things considering what he is.

Originally posted by Burning thought
much higher level than Raziel, once again titles and such cloud judgement in debates, what would say hes much higher level? and how is he superior in intelligence and power?...intelligence yes...power? obviously not becaue he has no defence ofr his soul and would die form it being ripped from him, Raziel cannot be destroyed in teh spectoral realm, his spirit reforms, you would have to swallow his soul completly to stop him, for example the Reaver in the games. So nerzuel will be fighting a losing battle, he strikes raziels physical form and then he just ends up battleing until raziel gets a few reavers through him and drains his essence. Raziel has powers over the elements as well, so his shaman status does not overpower raziel.

Yes Raziel can devour an opponents soul, but not with a snap of his fingers, its through the wraith blade, if it touches its enemies it swallows their souls, its Kain who can do it with a snap of his fingers more or less. Raziel still has TK, telekinetic powers to shackle and manipulate both weapons and opponents, he could freeze the king in shackles and reave his soul, or toy with him by stealing the kings sword and reave him or actually have a combat with the guy, frost, flames..wind blasting the king will be incredible.

ime debating through the games and WoWwiki info, but i do not object ofcourse to you enlightening me with a link to prove certain things, yes i know in the RPG frostmourne is indestructable, regardless of what things say Frostmourne is likely to be so, but is the RPG cannon to the games?

also strongly beliveing things is a fair right, i strongly believe Raziel can win this quite easily because nothing so far could state otherwise, nothing of fact but that doesnt mean anything, its the facts, so we dont know Nerzuel can do this...he would unlikely do it even if he could, he would be unlikely to touch light magic. Hell it would probably bother him to use such things considering what he is.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl
Both at their prime!


There's why I bring the RPG and everything else up..



Why would it bother him considering what he is? He is a demi-God, and not the weak kind. A demi-God is the closest any person can come to being a God and you are planning on simply shackle him and steal his soul?

And so what if he can master the elements? So can any mage or shaman in WoW, even though they are at their lowest level.. Knowing the element doesn't make him an all-mighty element master.. So, by you saying he can use fire, ice, water, earth, lighting, light, dark and everything to it, it honestly doesn't mean anything.. For all I know, he can create a fireball, or an icebolt.. Maybe a lightning strike from the skies..

As a spirit, there's no hiding from the Lich King.. He can cut spirits with his sword as if they were physical.. I hardly believe that Raziel can shackle the frostmourne.. It's a sword of highly artifactical level, that's indestructable and bound to the master.. And once the swords hits a person, the Lich King steals energy.. So, if the reavers drain his energy, he'll strike them and drain it back.. Simple as that.. He's a horribly talented swordsman..

And truthfully, I dont care what Kain can do.. We're discussing Lich King versus Raziel.. And Raziel wont possibly stand his ground against him..




So, what does it take? A single, light touch with a simple blade will drain the soul of a demi-God that master the world of spirits?

Oh yeah.. Makes sense..

Originally posted by Darth Extecute
There's why I bring the RPG and everything else up..



Why would it bother him considering what he is? He is a demi-God, and not the weak kind. A demi-God is the closest any person can come to being a God and you are planning on simply shackle him and steal his soul?

And so what if he can master the elements? So can any mage or shaman in WoW, even though they are at their lowest level.. Knowing the element doesn't make him an all-mighty element master.. So, by you saying he can use fire, ice, water, earth, lighting, light, dark and everything to it, it honestly doesn't mean anything.. For all I know, he can create a fireball, or an icebolt.. Maybe a lightning strike from the skies..

As a spirit, there's no hiding from the Lich King.. He can cut spirits with his sword as if they were physical.. I hardly believe that Raziel can shackle the frostmourne.. It's a sword of highly artifactical level, that's indestructable and bound to the master.. And once the swords hits a person, the Lich King steals energy.. So, if the reavers drain his energy, he'll strike them and drain it back.. Simple as that.. He's a horribly talented swordsman..

And truthfully, I dont care what Kain can do.. We're discussing Lich King versus Raziel.. And Raziel wont possibly stand his ground against him..




So, what does it take? A single, light touch with a simple blade will drain the soul of a demi-God that master the world of spirits?

Oh yeah.. Makes sense..

Demi-God is simply a tital, many titles are in games, so many and people take them too seriously since as soon as they hear "demi god" or "god" they think they would rule over the opponent, its simply not true. The Elder God is as his name implies has the title of God which is beyond Demi God yet he admits he cannot do anything to Raziel..and the Elder God is a planet sized, ethereal soul feeding entity.

Rubbish about, it wont affect him because his a demi-god/god...whatever it is means nothing. Titles, tis all they are, doesnt mean just because hes a demi-god hes immune to TK shackles..he fits the perfect size for the shackles to link and the shackles are telekintetic force, he wont be able to move. Then he gets reaved.

also Raziel has many useful powers, light energies, would be very effective against a creature of Nerzuels type and his powers are excellent for incapacitating his enemies and do huge AOE blasts for all of them. Its also suspect on wether or not Nerzuel can use his Shaman powers or has them at all...infact its likely he would not due to its only his soul thats the same, even though he "may" have the knowledge doesnt mean he could use it in Arthas' body and theres no proof of him being able to use it as the lich king. Just because Raziel was once a sarafan knight (paladin more or less) doesnt mean he can still use their magic, and most sources point to no since he never does.

You are not a Demi-God/God for nothing ermm

Correct, but it does not justify why a character wins in all cases.

Still, it is not just a simple title shrug

yes it can...do you think Zues is as powerful as TOAA all? they both carry the title of God....you think Kratos could beat the Christian God? their titles and nothing more, why i cant remember right now the game but there was a character labled a God in it who was nothing compared to the Gods in some games.

There is a difference between a god and THE God. Doy.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
There is a difference between a god and THE God. Doy.

thats what ime saying, the thing is, is that since God is often used for the name of THE God people immeditley overate them and give them feets and protection that they simply dont have

Ner'Zhul is not what I'd call unfamiliar with the soul.

From what I understood, it is all he have had for a couple of thousand years

I think that is a good time enough to get to know your soul

knowing your soul is one thing, protecting it is another all together, he has shown no abilities of yet to show he can protect his soul from Raziel, and being a soul for all those years he was helpless inside the frozen thrown, he was starting to die or would have died if Arthas didnt free him in time thanks ot the fracture in the frozen thrown, so id say his soul is certainly vulnerable. Kain is not unfamiliar with the soul, since the whole of LOK more or less reolves around spirits and such but it doesnt save him from being reaved

Was it not that he would have died because of Illidan, not that his time expired ermm

his throne was raptured and his energies were being drained out of it and he was losing power, wether he would of died or not eventually i think is likely and would probably happen but its illidan who would of finished the job faster and wanted to make sure but the throne was ruptured either way.

If the future master of Arthas was dying, why did he walk?

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl
If the future master of Arthas was dying, why did he walk?

what do you mean walk? he did not walk...unless you mean after he fused with Arthas, in that case its because Arthas as a vessel was all he required, his spirit was not without a shell anymore.

He did not walk? shock

Then what do you call.........

THIS

Originally posted by Darth Extecute
"So come then, you heroes! Come, in all your power and glory! For in the final hour, all must serve...... the one.. true.. KING!"

- Lich King


-HJBEkO5u9M

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl
He did not walk? shock

Then what do you call.........

THIS

i thought we were talking about Lich king himself not arthas, sry....yes Arthas was walking but Arthas wasnt dieing, he was just losing his power...however what i was saying is that the lich king ofc doesnt walk and seems to be dieing or...ceasing to excist since hes more or less dead already.

PS: love that vid, one of my fave ones, provides excellent hype for the lich king

If the Lich King was dying soon, Arthas did not seem to care much

He did not exactly hurry in any part of the video. Took him like 30 seconds to pick the helmet on and put it on

well Arthas doesnt care much about a lot of things does he, maybe hes a lazy bugger and does it to p*ss off the lich king for a laugh

Actually Arthas was weakening with the Lich King and just fought Illidan, he was tired.

Of course! I would piss of the most powerful person on Azeroth anytime anyday for the sake of a laugh

"shrug"...its fact the lich kings essence was seeping from the throne and that the lich king was losing power as well as Arthas and on top of that, he was certainly distressed at this..i dont think the lich king is just relaxing throughout the dilema of his soul seeping into nothingness

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! I AM A GENIOUS! !


All warcraft heroes are immune to soul attacks

Ner'Zhul takes him down

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! I AM A GENIOUS! !


All warcraft heroes are immune to soul attacks

Ner'Zhul takes him down


are they? interesting can you link me where it says it?

also why does Ner'zuel take him down? he cannot do anything to spectoral raziel, the essence of the Spectoral world regenerates his body if his spectoral form is destroyed and Nerzuel can still be defeated...jeez as if Raziels only hope was to take his soul, Raziel still has bucket loads of abilities

DE said that Frostmourne could strike etheral beings

I need no link! Start Warcraft, lean back and try take the soul of a hero with a banshee

They can claim the souls of anything from a footman to a dragon, but not heroes

So proud lion

A: thats gameplay...

B: thats possession, not soul stealing or destroying

C: made me laugh tho good one

and yes DE did say that, and i agree, it says so in the RPG..so your point is? he can strike all he likes and if he destroys raziel he will reform from spectoral matter...then he does it again...and again..

also why just because he has the potential to hit Raziel mean that he will, Raziel is far faster and more agile....TK shackles...TK throw..lich king on his head..

You had to crumble my joy, did you not? mhm

aw sry also how do you guys do the lion head and the other smiles, do you use the source code to put them in or other sites? or macroed?

It is a KMC code but I do not remember the link to all the smilies

hmm its boring only being able to use the basic ones

So..............

Who won? ermm

*shrug* already passed my opinion, i think Raziel 6 or 7/10

This 6-7/10 stuff thing! How does it work? hmm

I have been told before but forgot shock

it means i think Raziel will win 6 times out of 10 fights and Nerzuel would have a chance to win 4 times...it can also mean that Raz would beat Nerzuel 60% chance

I will start using that system

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl
I will start using that system tighthug

lion

LOOOOOVE

YUMMY TURKEY AND POTATOES FOR DINNER!!!

Can I have some?

no wais

anyway....kain pwns all...he kills god with his little finger, pyron with a nostral hair..jedah and belial with a sniff..and the whole SSF..Tekken and DOA line up with his toe fungus....and KOS-MOS with his...well.....his..anyway...

While Amazo and Jafar beats the shit out of him

pffy eh then his testicles evolves into a pair of omnipowered godlike entities and eats them whole

A pity Amazo will copy the testicles shrug

nah the tesitcles are immune to such a copy you see, it says it in the omnipotent tesitcles manual...good idea tho but soz

So is the secret of time, it says so in the Green Lantern Core manual. Yet Kain uses it! Manuals are meant to be broken

yeh ofc but we all know the omnipotent testicle manuel was written by TOAA himself...even Saint of all killers wrote a page....Dante wrote a word of it...the Testicle manuel surely cannot be broken

Testicles?