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Yes, the Presence(yahweh)vs. the LT.

Although not much is seen of Yahweh, he is responsible for the twins Michael and Lucifer. In that case he must be really ****ing powerful (needless to say).God versus the multiverses judge.

The victor is pretty obvious in my opinion. Hmmm.

Yahweh is the "supreme" being of DC right? i would think Yahweh

Originally posted by Lord Shaper
Yes, the Presence(yahweh)vs. the LT.

Although not much is seen of Yahweh, he is responsible for the twins Michael and Lucifer. In that case he must be really ****ing powerful (needless to say).God versus the multiverses judge.

The victor is pretty obvious in my opinion. Hmmm.

Yes it is so why ???????????

Can we say closed?? Its like saying TOAA vs LT, whos going to win? hmmm

Originally posted by Lord Shaper
Yes, the Presence(yahweh)vs. the LT.

Although not much is seen of Yahweh, he is responsible for the twins Michael and Lucifer. In that case he must be really ****ing powerful (needless to say).God versus the multiverses judge.

The victor is pretty obvious in my opinion. Hmmm. why would u create a thread like this.

Originally posted by quanchi112
why would u create a thread like this.


idiot...you make dumber threads than this.

what's the point? unless u hate lt so much...

lol this is like
Supreme vs 2nd to Supreme

Children, children. Calm yourselves ... Fact is Yahweh himself, confirmed on panel that there were forces external to that of his own.

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7062/lucifer75p34py1tm3.jpg

Which would mean that he wasn't in fact supreme.
Was he second to the supreme? - No one knows. But what we do know is, there are forces superior to that of his own.

Cool scan, now I'm wondering what those forces are.

I need to know!!!! =P

Originally posted by Lord Shaper
Cool scan, now I'm wondering what those forces are.

I need to know!!!! =P it stinks that there is no supreme being over there.

im still pissed about it.

Originally posted by Lord Shaper
Cool scan, now I'm wondering what those forces are.

I need to know!!!! =P
Well, we can only speculate.

It was obvious. When Yahweh was talking to Spectre he asked a question.

Originally posted by Takion
It was obvious. When Yahweh was talking to Spectre he asked a question.

Are you speaking of the forces which created Yahweh?

Originally posted by Lord Shaper
Are you speaking of the forces which created Yahweh?
No, he's talking about how Yahweh, who is supose to be omniscient asked a question.
Why would you ask something you know the answer of ... Oh wait, I do that all the time, it's a good way to explain--making people think for themselves.

The external forces are supose to be a bit like The-One-Above-All, never shown, or explained, so his omnipotence don't get flawed in any way.

Because God in the Bible is terribly flawed.

You mean Yahweh from Vertigo then? That story has no bearing on DC. It's pretty evident if you've actually bothered to read it. Plus there's the fact that both of the companies don't even acknowledge eachother anymore.

Then I'll point out how ambiguous the statement is, first off, it is NEVER said that there is force SUPERIOR or ABOVE him, as you've tried to explain away above. Only that he is shaped by other forces. Anything else is just extrapolation. It could be intended or taken any number of ways. However, we know from previous encounters and even that issue, that Yahweh is beyond all and has never shown a limit. He is eternal, and infinite. He is the sum, the result, the creator of all.

On the other hand when we saw Kirby in Fantastic Four, his image was shaped their perception. And pretty much the whole image/scene displayed nothing but flaws and lack of omnipotence/omniscience, on a level that is not even comparable to Yahweh or Yahweh's 'plan'. And that's not even touching on the gaping holes in 'The End' storyline.

Originally posted by Juntai
You mean Yahweh from Vertigo then? That story has no bearing on DC. It's pretty evident if you've actually bothered to read it. Plus there's the fact that both of the companies don't even acknowledge eachother anymore.
Doesn't matter, Vertigo is a part of DC - Since Delerium have appeared in the DC universe as well.


What else can 'forces external to even that of my own' mean?
Accept the fact, unless you have a scan confirming that he's an aspect or whatever.


Maybe it was a part of 'his plan' to have a civil conversation.

Originally posted by Astner
Doesn't matter, Vertigo is a part of DC - Since Delerium have appeared in the DC universe as well.


What else can 'forces external to even that of my own' mean?
Accept the fact, unless you have a scan confirming that he's an aspect or whatever.


Maybe it was a part of 'his plan' to have a civil conversation. Would that mean that Marvel is part of DC too, since Dream and Death have appeared in their stories as well?
Vertigo and DC are seperate entities. The contents of that Lucifer storyline have no bearing on DC. Try reading the story and you'll understand why.

I don't have to prove that the forces weren't GREATER, because I wasn't the one extrapolating. You need to prove they are.


Yahweh still showed much less flaws than Marvel's God.

This is a really simple fight. The LT has never created or destroyed anything on panel to my knowlege. Michael and Lucifer have. And they are less than Yahweh. The LT didn't have the will or power to fix a universal flaw in the end. Thus he has no chance in hell against the supreme being of vertigo.

Yahweh wins

Originally posted by Juntai
Would that mean that Marvel is part of DC too, since Dream and Death have appeared in their stories as well?
Vertigo and DC are seperate entities. The contents of that Lucifer storyline have no bearing on DC. Try reading the story and you'll understand why.

I don't have to prove that the forces weren't GREATER, because I wasn't the one extrapolating. You need to prove they are.


Yahweh still showed much less flaws than Marvel's God.

Dream and Death appeared in Marvel comics? That piqued my interest, I must know more.

I agree though, Yahweh IS superior to all in the Vertigo/ DC universe. However DC and Vertigo go hand in hand, there is too much in Vertigo (not all of it, mind you) that coincides with the DCU. They are two seperate entities, but if I'm correct isn't Vertigo still owned by DC?

As for the actual topic. Yes ladies and gents, Yahweh triumphs over the Living Tribunal.

Originally posted by Lord Shaper
Dream and Death appeared in Marvel comics? That piqued my interest, I must know more.

I agree though, Yahweh IS superior to all in the Vertigo/ DC universe. However DC and Vertigo go hand in hand, there is too much in Vertigo (not all of it, mind you) that coincides with the DCU. They are two seperate entities, but if I'm correct isn't Vertigo still owned by DC?

As for the actual topic. Yes ladies and gents, Yahweh triumphs over the Living Tribunal.

DC owns vertigo and the characters share some similiarities, But Yehweh isn't the God of DC. He is still Superior to Everyone in DC tho.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
DC owns vertigo and the characters share some similiarities, But Yehweh isn't the God of DC. He is still Superior to Everyone in DC tho.

Do you know who the supreme being of DC is? Now I'm curious!! I must know!

Originally posted by Lord Shaper
Do you know who the supreme being of DC is? Carlin.

Originally posted by Lord Shaper
Do you know who the supreme being of DC is? Now I'm curious!! I must know!

The Presence.

Carlin has been shown to be the God of The Imps so i'm assuming It's an avatar of the presence or the way the imps see him.

grant morrison has also been shown as the presence.

Originally posted by Juntai
You mean Yahweh from Vertigo then? That story has no bearing on DC. It's pretty evident if you've actually bothered to read it. Plus there's the fact that both of the companies don't even acknowledge eachother anymore.

Then I'll point out how ambiguous the statement is, first off, it is NEVER said that there is force SUPERIOR or ABOVE him, as you've tried to explain away above. Only that he is shaped by other forces. Anything else is just extrapolation. It could be intended or taken any number of ways. However, we know from previous encounters and even that issue, that Yahweh is beyond all and has never shown a limit. He is eternal, and infinite. He is the sum, the result, the creator of all.

On the other hand when we saw Kirby in Fantastic Four, his image was shaped their perception. And pretty much the whole image/scene displayed nothing but flaws and lack of omnipotence/omniscience, on a level that is not even comparable to Yahweh or Yahweh's 'plan'. And that's not even touching on the gaping holes in 'The End' storyline.




The forces being external to Yahweh, mean they are not part of him. Yes, he is infinite and eternal.


IS he flawless? No...

IS he everything that exists ? No....if there are forces external to himself, which shape him, than that means there are existances which are not part of himself, yet shape who and what he is.

Yahweh in Vertigo is unlike Yahweh in the Bible, the same way Lucifer Morningstar is nothing like the Bible depicts Satan to be. Yahweh in the Bible is unchanging. Yahweh in Vertigo embraced Change.

Yahweh in the Bible gives free will to all his creations, while in Vertigo, all of creation goes according to Yahweh's will, and Lucifer is truly the only wild card out of everything he created.


Yahweh from Vertigo is a unique twist from the conventional depiction of Yahweh. As is Lucifer.



Btw, what did you mean when you said Yahweh has less flaws than Marvel's God ? What exactly are you talking about ?

Oh yeah, and ofcourse Yahweh defeats LT.

Originally posted by Lord Shaper
Cool scan, now I'm wondering what those forces are.

I need to know!!!! =P

It's obvious that the external forces are the artists and writers of DC, only a dumbass wouldn't be able to comprehend that.
The Presence/GEB are the supreme beings of DC. What can be above supreme? The ****ing writers and artists of course.

It's the same thing when it said "the master manipulator was tricked" in Marvel the End. The higher powers are the artists and writers.

Of course the writers and artists aren't going to write out "AND THAT HIGHER POWER, OR THOSE EXTERNAL FORCES, ARE US." It should be easy for people to comprehend that, but apparently it isn't for most the people on this forum. It seems that it's impossible for the people on this forum to grasp the concept that the writer could actually be implying something, instead of just writing that to show that the character was not supreme.

Fact is, even the supreme characters of comics are nothing when compared to the writer because the writers choose how the stories go; and I think everybody knows this.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
The Presence.

Carlin has been shown to be the God of The Imps so i'm assuming It's an avatar of the presence or the way the imps see him.

grant morrison has also been shown as the presence. u mean the presence and the geb.

remember they were equal.

Wait, the Presence is above Yahweh? I thought Presence and GEB merged into him...

Originally posted by Hannibal-Lector
Wait, the Presence is above Yahweh? I thought Presence and GEB merged into him... there is quite a lot of confusion about whats going on in dc and vertigo.

i hate the way ds has done this. its hard to keep up.

Originally posted by Air Legend
It's obvious that the external forces are the artists and writers of DC, only a dumbass wouldn't be able to comprehend that.
The Presence/GEB are the supreme beings of DC. What can be above supreme? The ****ing writers and artists of course.

It's the same thing when it said "the master manipulator was tricked" in Marvel the End. The higher powers are the artists and writers.

Of course the writers and artists aren't going to write out "AND THAT HIGHER POWER, OR THOSE EXTERNAL FORCES, ARE US." It should be easy for people to comprehend that, but apparently it isn't for most the people on this forum. It seems that it's impossible for the people on this forum to grasp the concept that the writer could actually be implying something, instead of just writing that to show that the character was not supreme.

Fact is, even the supreme characters of comics are nothing when compared to the writer because the writers choose how the stories go; and I think everybody knows this.


It's obvious, but extremely cheesy.



Atleast Yahweh only hints at the writers, but Marvel portraying TOAA as the comic book writer himself is extra cheesy with a side of fries. It makes me take the IG, HOTU, and LT less seriously.

No need to remind us that they are just comic book characters.


I'm so glad Spawn and Image don't pull shit like that.

GEB is not equal to the presence. The GEB/Great Dakness + The Ultimate Light/The Voice = Yaweh

Originally posted by Air Legend
It's obvious that the external forces are the artists and writers of DC, only a dumbass wouldn't be able to comprehend that.
The Presence/GEB are the supreme beings of DC. What can be above supreme? The ****ing writers and artists of course.

It's the same thing when it said "the master manipulator was tricked" in Marvel the End. The higher powers are the artists and writers.

Of course the writers and artists aren't going to write out "AND THAT HIGHER POWER, OR THOSE EXTERNAL FORCES, ARE US." It should be easy for people to comprehend that, but apparently it isn't for most the people on this forum. It seems that it's impossible for the people on this forum to grasp the concept that the writer could actually be implying something, instead of just writing that to show that the character was not supreme.

Fact is, even the supreme characters of comics are nothing when compared to the writer because the writers choose how the stories go; and I think everybody knows this.

i disagree. i think that what was meant is that although in his multiverse yahweh is supreme... there are others EXACTLY like him, which can involve/influence what happens in his multiverse.. ie what happens in marvel/image.. ie the dc/marvel crossovers... There is powers external to his own.. ie.. marvel is completely separate from dc... but has yet influenced how their multiversed changed...

Originally posted by rotiart
i disagree. i think that what was meant is that although in his multiverse yahweh is supreme... there are others EXACTLY like him, which can involve/influence what happens in his multiverse.. ie what happens in marvel/image.. ie the dc/marvel crossovers... There is powers external to his own.. ie.. marvel is completely separate from dc... but has yet influenced how their multiversed changed...

Or he could be talking about the presence of DC being external and shaping him. DC does shape vertigo. The stories and characters and universes are similiar but not the same.

Doesn't anyone remember?

"Was Amy here?" - Yahweh

I don't think God would ask that. Even if he had that knowledge he would just say "Yes. I ate her"

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Or he could be talking about the presence of DC being external and shaping him. DC does shape vertigo. The stories and characters and universes are similiar but not the same. u change ur mind daily on this.

Originally posted by Air Legend
It's obvious that the external forces are the artists and writers of DC, only a dumbass wouldn't be able to comprehend that.
The Presence/GEB are the supreme beings of DC. What can be above supreme? The ****ing writers and artists of course.

It's the same thing when it said "the master manipulator was tricked" in Marvel the End. The higher powers are the artists and writers.

Of course the writers and artists aren't going to write out "AND THAT HIGHER POWER, OR THOSE EXTERNAL FORCES, ARE US." It should be easy for people to comprehend that, but apparently it isn't for most the people on this forum. It seems that it's impossible for the people on this forum to grasp the concept that the writer could actually be implying something, instead of just writing that to show that the character was not supreme.

Fact is, even the supreme characters of comics are nothing when compared to the writer because the writers choose how the stories go; and I think everybody knows this.

No shit, Sherlock. I was speaking of the external forces WITHIN the story. As this is what is being alluded to.

Originally posted by Lord Shaper
No shit, Sherlock. I was speaking of the external forces WITHIN the story. As this is what is being alluded to. basically the external forces are not known. so no one should be forcing their opinion as fact. it is speculation. in marvel TOAA is known as the writer but in dc here with this line from a comic book we just dont know what it means and everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

The external forces are the writers. So that's actually a feat, not a weakness, since he is supreme in his fictional verse and aware that he is fictional.

Originally posted by Takion
Doesn't anyone remember?

"Was Amy here?" - Yahweh

I don't think God would ask that. Even if he had that knowledge he would just say "Yes. I ate her"
I think he was trying to point out that the question was stupid. Like this:

"I ate everything in heaven."

"Did you eat Amy"

"Well if she was in Heaven obviously I did you idiot."