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A reoccuring question in my mind

Basically, yes.

Less basically, yes, but the films make clear that these things do not always go as you see them, being only possibilities, nor are you certain to see all such possibilities.

He did plan the whole Anakin thing and the whole Luke thing. He sacreficed Doku for future means and all that, as if he knew. Would he not also see the possibility that Vader turns against him? ermm

That is what haunts me the most

If he was such a wise, intelligent man and could see the future, how did he miss his own possible death? I find it quite obvious that a father decide to protect his son

Yoda answers that question for ya in ESB: "Always in motion, the future is... "

So there is no way to see the future then, but Sidious almost succeeded?

It is possible to see it... be it that one can see the possibilities as things are at that time. In TPM Palpy is manipulating the Senate knowing how the future will look is he continues to control it. "Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen."... why would he say that if he KNEW EXACTLY what was going to happen? There's a fluidity in teh future, there a way the future turns out as longs as things continue along the present lines. But things do change. As Ush said: one can see possibilities.

It's highly likely that Palpatine did not foresee a future betrayal by his apprentice.

Not like that. In fact, both Vader and Palpy said they could foresee Luke destroy the Emperor. In the end, Vader did.

In a way, Luke was the reason the emperor did fall

Light Side of the force blinded him in the way Darkside blinded the Jedi in PT, perhaps. He could not understand that love can defeat the Darskide.

Originally posted by Diamond Kisses
In a way, Luke was the reason the emperor did fall

True, very true.

Damn Luke, he bugs me. He shouldn't have been able to take that many electric shots.

He was the real chosen one.

How?

he wasn't...Anakin was. GL has stated this numerous times.

Exactly.

I know. But Luke should have been the One. He did all the hard work.

Really? He turned against and killed his extended "family," lose his wife and kids, get stuck in a suit and then hurt his son, and then turn on his master for his son, killing himself in the process...

Luke got his hand cut off and got electrocuted.

So tunring against and killing your family, losing wife and kids, hurting your son and turning on your master earns one the title of Chosen One??? That's very odd....

Yes, Anakin suffered more. But Luke resisted the Dark Side twice, decided to risk his life to save his father who'd everyone had given up on, and risked his own life.... I call that doing all the hard work. Vader just followed his own desires until the love of his son made him turn.

yes that is a good assesment. Sideous couldnt really see the future only the possiblities. This is utimately the Dark Lords downfall as he really believed that Luke would join him. Anakin may have been the chosen one but the profacy states: That he would bring balence to the force. I think the Jedi misread it. I believe it could mean: Anakin would make both the Dark and Light sides equal eg. at the end of Sith, only two Sith and Two true Jedi remained. Yoda and Kenobi, Palpatine and Vader.

Originally posted by queeq
So tunring against and killing your family, losing wife and kids, hurting your son and turning on your master earns one the title of Chosen One??? That's very odd....

Yes, Anakin suffered more. But Luke resisted the Dark Side twice, decided to risk his life to save his father who'd everyone had given up on, and risked his own life.... I call that doing all the hard work. Vader just followed his own desires until the love of his son made him turn. No, being destined to be the Chosen One earns him the title. However Anakin did the hard work too. He had to resist the darkside alot more often and on a completely different level than Luke. He was around it all the time, he was surrounded by people that were jealous of him and disliked him because of his power, to include a master Councilman or two. He had the shitty childhood and background to make him join the darkside long before he did, but he resisted all the while.

And rather than "risking" his life, he gave his life to save his son and fulfill the prophecy. He turned on everything he believed in so he could have the chance to save the one person who showed him unconditional love. Of course that was manipulated by someone who played the ENTIRE JEDI ORDER, so yea, I'd say Anakin did a lot of the hard work and has a firm grip on the title Chosen One.

And no, the prophecy was not misread. GL stated that Anakin/Vader was the chosen one and did in fact fulfill the prophecy when he killed Palpatine. EP3 - special features - The Chosen One; as well as ROTS commentary.

Plus, did Luke have to fight in any huge wars for very long or any huge battles? I don't think so, he had Hoth, which he did very little, he left in his X-Wing, he wasn't on Endor, and the Death Star doesn't count, he went all sneaky.

Anakin had the Clone Wars which was brutal and fought hard on many different planets.

How can a person 'earn' the title of Chosen One? (more directed to queeq)

You can't. You either are or you aren't...you have to be...*gasp*...chosen to be the Chosen One.

Yeah, exactly, queeq doesn't know what he's talking about.

indeed not

He should lose his mod powers, not very trustworthy.

i agree. if he does not give up his mod powers after this debate is over, he should be removed from office...

By a majority vote.

to a dark place this line of thought will carry us...

To death in fact.

Look.. aside from the fact that I know Anakin is the Chosen One, the whole plot device just doesn't work. GL made him into a guy that flips the switch. When did Anakin resist the Dark Side???? Only after his son showed him. Anakin never did: het killed Tusken, kept quiet about it, never told his mentor, never listens, is arrogant, complains and wants to follow his own desires. That's all he's done from AOTC on, up until the moment Luke suffers.

For a Chosen One to bring balance, all he does is chuck the Emperor down a chute. Luke on the other hand faces his destiny head on by going to meet Vader in ROTJ. Only trusting his Jedi skills and perhaps the love for his father. He uses the Dark Side to strike down Vader, b7ut he resists temptation. He turns back from what Yoda said could not be done: Once you go down the Dark path....
Only then Vader does the same.

In fact, Luke adds another interesting tidbit into Jedi lore here. They always said attachment makes one open for the Dark Side. In this particular case Luke's attachment to his father actually results in bringing balance to the Force. No one taught Luke that, it came from himself. Luke faced the dangers, he turned back from using the Dark Side powers and through love he made his father turn... and then Vader chucks the Emperor down the chute.... Luke wrote Jedi history.

I always loathed the Chosen One thing when TPM came out and I still do. GL does nothing with the prophecy, it's useless and badly thought through.

Agree.

Well, someone does.

Nope you are right about the whole thing....if there has to be a chosen one Luke gets my vote.

Well we're not taking votes right now.

I know Luke did shit, but everything he did, so did Anakin in a way. Anakin faced his destiny which was far worse than Luke's and still overcame and brought balance to the force. Doesn't matter why, he had to do it on his own. Like his mom said, the choice is yours alone.

Luke struck down Vader via the darkside, Anakin struck the Tuskens via the darkside.

Anakin whines alot...Luke wants to go to Toshi Station to pick up some power converters, cries about leaving home all the time until his aunt and uncle are killed.

Anakin listens when he needs to, save for against Dooku, and Luke does the same. Did he listen to Yoda about the cave? Did he listen to Leia about the trap? Or about even going to Cloud City?

Luke, I'm sure, was raised with love and compassion, whereas Anakin, while being cared for, is constantly put down by OB1. He made it quite clear to QGJ that he didn't like Anakin and only took on the task due to a death bed promise. What kind of true support are you really going to get from someone who has to train you? If QGJ trained Anakin, i think everything would be completely different.

Anakin was still quite passionate about being a Jedi and following the code, and no matter how you want to twist it, he was right about the whole spying on and killing Palpatine issue. Treason, murder...he was right. Maybe for the wrong reasons, but he was still right. If the council had known the circumstances under which he had demolished and killed Dooku, and only offered the excuse, "he's too dangerous to keep alive," Mace would have his ass. He's constantly disrespected by the council as well, mainly Mace.

I know Luke still did a lot for the Jedi, but his Order was founded on the principles that Anakin was living...love, attachment, compassion; all of those things that Luke allowed, were the things that led to Anakin's "downfall." Hypocrisy really.

But yes, Lucas shouldn't have even introduced the idea of a prophecy.

Anakin may have been right but he never ACTED right. He never used his principles to direct his actions. He didn't really choose, as Luke did after ESB.

But we agree on the prophecy thing. Bad move,

fully oh great destroyer

Originally posted by queeq
Anakin may have been right but he never ACTED right. He never used his principles to direct his actions. He didn't really choose, as Luke did after ESB.

But we agree on the prophecy thing. Bad move, Yea, i felt like Lucas had just watched The Matrix or something when he wrote the screenplay...

but I was just saying that Anakin and Luke followed VERY similar paths, I just think that Anakin's road was much harder on a whole.

Yes Anakin had to leave his mother, whereas |Luke didnt have a choice because his Uncle and Aunt had been killed, Anakin had to leave his 'living' mother. Tougher choice. But Luke has been through quite a bit in the rebellion while the Jedi of old had a differen purpose...

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Yea, i felt like Lucas had just watched The Matrix or something when he wrote the screenplay...

but I was just saying that Anakin and Luke followed VERY similar paths, I just think that Anakin's road was much harder on a whole.

I don't think so. The point of similar roads is to have the same ordeals with different choices and therefore different outcomes. Luke's saves his ' soul' and that of his father.

No, similar means they can be easily compared, which as he showed, they can be.

exactly, they're similar, not identical. And you have to agree that Anakin had the harder life since birth.

Hmm, I am unsure if I would go that far, but he definately had a hard life, queeq is just missing a lot of points.

Luke life didn't get difficult until he became in contact with OB1. Anakin was born into slavery for Christ's sake. Thats just the tip of the iceberg...

Anakin had a loving mother. He could build stuff, he didn't look too troubled to me.

Luke had an annoying Uncle who, as turned out, lied to him all his young life about his family.

In the end, Anakin's story starts in AOTC, Luke in ANH. Compare from there on.

So because he had a mom and was good at building stuff, that negates him being a slave and having a shitty life? Luke's aunt and uncle were loving, he didn't seem to have too shabby of a life. And you cant say "start from AOTC," those years he spent as a slave were the years that mold you into the person you are.

So in the end, Anakin's life starts in TPM and is far from ideal...

So what did we see about Anakin's slave life that was so terrible. We see him doing what he loves most: building things, we see him having a loving mother, he has friends to play with and he is making his very own pod racer in the backyard.... Honestly, Anakin's slave life didn't look too terrible to me.

He made have had 'friends' but they seemed to ridicule him and I have to say, I agree with sibjekt on this.

Luke's uncle and aunt seemed pretty loving, Luke was just whiny.

we see about 30 minutes of his slave life from PG perspective. There were slaves in the old days that got to live in the house and cook and clean...they had other slaves or "friends" to talk to...are to take that they didn't have it so bad compared to the ones that were free? Come on man, you know better than that. He was so well treated that he had a tracking device implanted in him that would blow him up if he left...he really had a GREAT childhood.

And Luke had it real bad...not being allowed to go to Toshi Station to get some power converters when he had...*gasp*...chores to do. Painful.

So he has a tracking device. I didn't see Anakin SUFFER very much. Luke neither, I agree, but he clearly disliked his life on Tatooine. I didn't see Anakin disliking his life very much, I didn't SEE hardship... What was the point of slavery there? So we add our own knowledgde of slavery and imagine how that much have been for Anakin? I saw no hard labour, no whipping, no slave ships etc...

Why would he suffer when we saw him?

1) He just found someone who would enter him into a podrace, finally a sponsor.

2) He met an 'angel' in the form of Natalie Portman (sweet)

3) Learned for himself he was helping a Jedi

I would be pretty happy too.

And he had all the freedom to interact and do all these things. Why would he see the suffering? Well, to show how much he wanted people not to be in his position.

Now I am wondering, since Anakin was such an annoying brat all of a sudden in AOTC, if young Anakin wasn't just a spoilt little sh!t.

No, he just happened to be there when Natalie and QGJ was, and the podrace, he needed sponsorship and approval from his owner.

I meant before that: single child, a mother that adores him, praises him into high heaven, he gets to build a podracer etc. etc.

What else would his mother do?

They are both slaves, she is not going to neglect him, she is all he's got, she was being a mother.

A podracer that Watto undoubtedly allowed him to build and probably helped, he probably sponsored Anakin first and when crashed, he figured he sucked.

Again: I don't really SEE Anakin suffer... at all!

Luke's ordeal was much clearer: grumpy uncle, ties him down, things are not discussed proerly (like Luke's father)....

When do we see Luke suffer?? Oh no, he can't go to the city place (name forgotten Mos Eisley??), thats a shame, a crying shame. I couldn't do anything earlier, I had to dig a ditch, I'm not suffering, family comes first.

If anything, Anakin's ordeal was clearer to me.

I didn't say Luke suffered... I said his ordeal was clearer.

Anakin had a great childhood from what we saw. So why did he turn into such an arrogant little brat?

What was his ordeal?

Great childhood? He had less then Luke.

I say he turned into what he did because after years of being enslaved, then suddenly in a flash he is trained as a Jedi getting anything he wants? He went from one extreme to another.

Less than Luke? They pretty much did the same thing. Luke flew his T-16, Anakin a podracer. Luke had to fix condensors, Anakin anything that came round at Watto's, Luke had a grumpy uncle, Anakin a grumpy owner, Luke had a sweet aunt, Anakin had a sweet mother, Luke couldn't go to follow his dream, Anakin could.

Luke did follow his dream, and got more out of it, he could have gone whever he wanted if he didn't care for his parents, Anakin on the other hand had a tracking thing in him (I believe).

Anakin was only able to because QGJ was able to persuade Watto to put him up for a bet, if Watto said no...Star Wars would be very boring.

Still... Luke had to see his slaughtered aunt and uncle before he could go. Anakin's mother supported him all the way.

Anakin's mother died in his arms, tortured by the Tuskens!

That was ten years later. He already was an arrogant brat by then.

Ok, then Luke didn't see his slaughtered aunt and uncle, he saw burned buildings and assumed the rest.

Huh????

Originally posted by General G
Ok, then Luke didn't see his slaughtered aunt and uncle, he saw burned buildings and assumed the rest.

Makes no sense what you're saying. He saw the burning corpses and THAT set him off on his adventures. Anakin was already an arrogant brat when him mom died.

We don't know he saw burning corpses, we/you assumed that, but wasn't shown, he could have gone there and then just assumed they were dead and left.

Wha...?? Huh???? There were two burning corpses when Luke arrived at the homestead. You better watch it again.

There definately wasn't! I have seen it many many times!

You can even get them as action figures. WATCH IT AGAIN!!!

What?!?!? I have seen it so many times and I have never noticed it until now!!!!

Now you've really made a fool of yourself.

Be ashamed.... be VERY ashamed.

I actually am...

Through calculations, yes

Originally posted by General G
I actually am...

Good.

I always thought it was just...debris...or random smoke on the ground...

Talking about it just makes it worse. Maybe you should buy the DVD and no longer watch the raggedy old VHS PAN&scan tape

I own it!! I have seen it many many times!

Anyways, enough of that nonsense, Anakin still had a worse childhood.

How? He always seemed like a happy-go-lucky kid. I don't know any free kids of eight that own their own pod racer.... or a car.

A few words of wisdom: My take is that Anaken is the chosen one because: 1. GL says so and he is the master of the star wars universe
2. He did bring balance to the force, even though he really "f***ed it up along the way by killing the younglings and what not. The way I see it, as long as a sith or two is crawling around, it doesn't matter if there are a million clouded-minded jedi sitting in the temple. You gotta get rid of the sith to bring balance. So by giving Sid "the shaft" and getting himself shocked into oblivion, the numbskull managed to do just that. Otherwise there would have always been a sith or three out a few planets away doing whatever it is that sith do, keeping the dark-side alive and well, screwing up the balance. Since the jedi are clouded to their presence, the only possible way for the sh** to hit the fan is for a jacka** sith to manage to kill not only his master, but himself in the process.
Anaken was the only big enough buffoon to pull off this one-in-a-million act and thus bring balance to the force (and disgrace to himself).
We salute you, bastard child of shmi!!

That was sweet.

Originally posted by queeq
How? He always seemed like a happy-go-lucky kid. I don't know any free kids of eight that own their own pod racer.... or a car.

What does Luke have to complain about!

He's out in the desert working on condensers all day.

Besides, I never said Luke had a bad childhood, but he looked more troubled about his life with Owen and Beru than Anakin with Shmi and his podracer. Plus he had a lot to deal wiht: didn't mnow his parents, finds out he's been lied to all his life and sees his uncle and aunt turned to charcoil. That's a lot to take in.
Anakin goes about fixing things, building his own droid, flying podraces for Watto, building his own podracer, has a loving mother, leaves her to follow his dream to become a Jedi... oh yes, and he is a slave...duh...

And yet, Anakin turns into an rrogant brat and Luke finds a way from not turning to the Dark Side. We even see him mature in 6 or so years.

He knew his parents, he lived with them...those are his parents, they looked after him, loved him, cared for him, fed him...parents. He didn't know his birth parents, thats not too bad.

He didn't find out he was lied to until ESB though, so that can almost be discarded for now.

Alright, that one I can give you now...he saw his burnt aunt and uncle...

That is how he deals with his situation of being a slave and is probably why he isn't killed or constantly sold...he fixes things well. And Watto barely let Anakin fly in the podrace in Ep 1, so who knows when his last one was or even how many. Anakin had a loving mother...Luke had a loving mother and father...going in circles with that one...

OK, but Anakin and Luke are two very different ages when we are comparing them...Luke was more mature when he went to become a Jedi.

But Anakin was matured in the Jedi world... and now farmboy whining Luke is more mature than Anakin at that age????? Come on.

Luke found out he was lied to about his father in ANH. OB1 told him Anakin was a Jedi and a great starpilot. Did you ever SEE ANH at all????

And if you think it doesn't matter if you didn't know your birthparents, then you are serio0usly mistaken. Adopted children very often want to know where they came from. So did Luke, why else did he keep sking about his father and was he so interested about Anakin?

Older usually (usually) comes along with maturity. He had more experiences.

Yes, I did, and he was a great starpilot and Jedi, his father was Anakin...not Darth Vader...that is how they considered it.
Yes, it would interest people to know their birth parents, but my bastard father did not care too much of his real parents, mind you...he found them...but did not bother him too much on not knowing.

Yet he went looking for them.

Anyway... sounds like there is no counter argument in your previous post. Guess I won.

What?! No way! There is no counter argument because you can't think of any, I countered everything you put, I won.

You lose.

Ha.

Originally posted by General G
Older usually (usually) comes along with maturity. He had more experiences.

Yes, I did, and he was a great starpilot and Jedi, his father was Anakin...not Darth Vader...that is how they considered it.
Yes, it would interest people to know their birth parents, but my bastard father did not care too much of his real parents, mind you...he found them...but did not bother him too much on not knowing.

Where is your counter argument??? I don't see it. I see you succumbing to my great and wonderful arguments. Bet you went to watch ANh for the first time.

Originally posted by queeq
But Anakin was matured in the Jedi world... and now farmboy whining Luke is more mature than Anakin at that age????? Come on.

Older usually (usually) comes along with maturity. He had more experiences.

Luke found out he was lied to about his father in ANH. OB1 told him Anakin was a Jedi and a great starpilot. Did you ever SEE ANH at all????

Yes, I did, and he was a great starpilot and Jedi, his father was Anakin...not Darth Vader...that is how they considered it.

And if you think it doesn't matter if you didn't know your birthparents, then you are serio0usly mistaken. Adopted children very often want to know where they came from. So did Luke, why else did he keep sking about his father and was he so interested about Anakin?

This couldn't even be countered, it was just a general statement. But I commented on it anyways. Yes, it would interest people to know their birth parents, but my bastard father did not care too much of his real parents, mind you...he found them...but did not bother him too much on not knowing.


So...yeah, everything in your post was countered...fail!

And then came this post from me:

Originally posted by queeq
But Anakin was matured in the Jedi world... and now farmboy whining Luke is more mature than Anakin at that age????? Come on.

Luke found out he was lied to about his father in ANH. OB1 told him Anakin was a Jedi and a great starpilot. Did you ever SEE ANH at all????

And if you think it doesn't matter if you didn't know your birthparents, then you are serio0usly mistaken. Adopted children very often want to know where they came from. So did Luke, why else did he keep sking about his father and was he so interested about Anakin?

And then you were quiet.

No! I countered yours and you know it.

You still don't pay attention.

I paid much attention...you still didn't read it.

I did... I countered it and then you were quiet. And that's that. End of discussion. End of thread. Off topic anyway.