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Scathan is greater than the IG, but the LT wins this.

this is Marvel space isnt it?

You mean Marvel cosmics?

i mean the battle takes place in the marvel universe...you kno...the comic universe, its not just an endless battle area of unknown origin? Or perhaps youll put them in a diffrent battle universe...

ime just saying, if LT is in a universe without TOAA, or in a Marvel universe he has judgement over, he wont be able to do much of anything to anyone

Originally posted by Burning thought
ime just saying, if LT is in a universe without TOAA, or in a Marvel universe he has judgement over, he wont be able to do much of anything to anyone
Well no duh. The comic book vs forum wouldn't exist if we went by that logic.

Originally posted by Air Legend
Well no duh. The comic book forum wouldn't exist if we went by that logic.

you seem to be confusing what ime saying hmm....in Marvel universe LT has the powers given by TOAA, to judge universes, apparently theres likea diffrent LT for each multiverse, but their also all the same

if for a special fight it did not take place in Marvel but a completly diffrent comic unvierse or not comic universe, then he wont do anything understand?

Originally posted by Burning thought
you seem to be confusing what ime saying hmm....in Marvel universe LT has the powers given by TOAA, to judge universes, apparently theres likea diffrent LT for each multiverse, but their also all the same

if for a special fight it did not take place in Marvel but a completly diffrent comic unvierse or not comic universe, then he wont do anything understand?

Unless the thread starter says the two are going to fight each other...

Originally posted by Air Legend

Unless the thread starter says the two are going to fight each other...

what are you talking about

yes i completly understand Scathan VS living Tribunal, but if you didnt put them in the Marval universe which is diffrent to the DC universe, which is diffent to the real unvierse etc etc...understand? basically put them in a Marval universe for the fight is all ime saying or LT does nothing and gets stomped...

onto the battle, Tribunal is supposed to be omnipotent in a marvel universe so for sure he wins i imagine

My question is can can Scathan resurrect the dead? Can he warp reality? Can he do the things that a true omnipotent being could do? If so where is it stated? or is he just pure power, because if he is then LT should wipe hi out of existence.

LT for the win

LT wins.

According to On Panel depictions (GOTG #50)
and in LT's own Official Handbook bio, (2006)

Scathan >>> LT

LT >>>> any other cat in Marvel,
(including the entire race of Celestials with the exception of Scathan)

Imo, Scathan was operating on behalf of TOAA based on the facts illustrated in GOTG #50.

Originally posted by Mr Master
According to On Panel depictions (GOTG #50)
and in LT's own Official Handbook bio, (2006)

Scathan >>> LT

LT >>>> any other cat in Marvel,
(including the entire race of Celestials with the exception of Scathan)

Imo, Scathan was operating on behalf of TOAA based on the facts illustrated in GOTG #50.

Actually, according to the bios, the LT is greater because the LT is second ONLY to TOAA.

Originally posted by Air Legend
Actually, according to the bios,
the LT is greater because the LT is second ONLY to TOAA.

(excerpt from the official Handbook 2006 - LT bio)
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9708/canonrm1.th.jpg

"The LT was nearly usurped by the Protege,
whose ability to duplicate the powers of others
allowed him to manifest the LT's own power.

It was Scathan the Celestial who saved Reality by judging against him"

srugyellowshoes

And it's true, the bio also states that TOAA is LT's only superior,
which is why I stated that Scathan was operating on behalf of TOAA.

It's the only logical explanation for an incident Marvel certified as canon.

Originally posted by Mr Master
(excerpt from the official Handbook 2006 - LT bio)
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9708/canonrm1.th.jpg

"The LT was nearly usurped by the Protege,
whose ability to duplicate the powers of others
allowed him to manifest the LT's own power.

It was Scathan the Celestial who saved Reality by judging against him"

srugyellowshoes

And it's true, the bio also states that TOAA is LT's only superior,
which is why I stated that Scathan was operating on behalf of TOAA.

It's the only logical explanation for an incident Marvel certified as canon.
Right, but that's why the LT is still greater than Scathan. If TOAA wanted Spider-Man to have more power than the LT for an issue, then Spider-Man would have been greater than the LT for that issue; however, that doesn't mean that Spider-Man is greater than the LT. Spider-Man was only greater because that was how TOAA wanted it for the time being. Scathan was chosen to look greater than the LT in the comic books, but because the LT's only superior is TOAA, the LT will always be greater than Scathan.

If we go solely by on panel feats then it would have to be PIS because it contradicts many things about the LT.

Originally posted by Air Legend
Right, but that's why the LT is still greater than Scathan. If TOAA wanted Spider-Man to have more power than the LT for an issue, then Spider-Man would have been greater than the LT for that issue; however, that doesn't mean that Spider-Man is greater than the LT. Spider-Man was only greater because that was how TOAA wanted it for the time being. Scathan was chosen to look greater than the LT in the comic books, but because the LT's only superior is TOAA, the LT will always be greater than Scathan. But if Spidey had only been featured in one issue, and in that one issue he was more powerful then LT, (as is the case with Scathan)...

We could make the general assumption that Spidey >> LT.

Originally posted by Galan007
But if Spidey had only been featured in one issue, and in that one issue he was more powerful then LT, (as is the case with Scathan)...

I could make the general assumption that Spidey >> LT.
Fixed 131

Originally posted by Galan007
But if Spidey had only been featured in one issue, and in that one issue he was more powerful then LT, (as is the case with Scathan)...

We could make the general assumption that Spidey >> LT.

This makes sense.

Because Spidey is a known character with a set powerset,
while Scathan has never before or since that GOTG arc appeared again.

So it's safe to say,
as it was depicted on panel, as the LT's own bio alludes,

Scathan >>> LT

And again, imo, Scathan was operating on behalf of TOAA.

Those Two specific panels in the arc point to my speculation as I presented before.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This makes sense.

Because Spidey is a known character with a set powerset,
while Scathan has never before or since that GOTG arc appeared again.

So it's safe to say,
as it was depicted on panel, as the LT's own bio alludes,

Scathan >>> LT

And again, imo, Scathan was operating on behalf of TOAA.

Those Two specific panels in the arc point to my speculation as I presented before.

If Scathan is superior to the LT like you keep claiming then: 1. Official Marvel Handbooks are ambivalent and cannot be taken seriously. 2. Scathan is the One Above All. or 3. Maybe the LT really is more powerful since his ONLY superior is TOAA.

Also, if Scathan is superior, then this:
http://img524.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lt2cm.jpg
is meaningless. That or the LT is the servant of Scathan (which of course he's not).

Last but not least, if your theory that TOAA wrote Scathan to be superior to the LT is true, then without TOAA giving Scathan power, Scathan has to be less powerful by default since the LT's only superior is TOAA.

Originally posted by Air Legend
If Scathan is superior to the LT like you keep claiming

I'm not claiming anything that wasn't presented on panel and confirmed by Marvel.

So let's just get that straight.

Originally posted by Air Legend
1. Official Marvel Handbooks are ambivalent and cannot be taken seriously.

If it had just been some bio gibberish like Phoenix being involved in Galactus' origin,
I would side with you,

But the fact is, it did take place On Panel, and then it was certified in the LT's official bio.

And again,
the on panel evidence IMO, leans towards Scathan being an agent of TOAA.

So realizing this, it's not that hard to imagine that Scathan is > LT.

Same reason THOTI is > LT.
(because it's a direct manifestation of toaa/god's power withIn the Omniverse)

So in the end,

it's only because Scathan was backed by TOAA (IMO) that we can say Scathan > LT.

Originally posted by Air Legend
2. Scathan is the One Above All.

Or his agent,

as this scan #1 seems to allude to when compared with scan #2:

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/9592/s1ms3.th.jpg
"the Celestial's purpose is only to record and Approve of what transpires here"


Scan #2:

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7748/s2zs0.th.jpg

"your actions are inexcusable ... make your peace, may TOAA forgive you"

Protege begins to cry out,

"No, I want to be TOAA"

The LT responds with,

"Power is meaningless beyond this existence"

Originally posted by Air Legend
or 3. Maybe the LT really is more powerful since his ONLY superior is TOAA.

Right.

Which is why it's logical Scathan was backed by TOAA
as the embodiment of "Approval and Disapproval"

Originally posted by Air Legend
Also, if Scathan is superior, then this:
http://img524.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lt2cm.jpg
is meaningless. That or the LT is the servant of Scathan (which of course he's not).

That scan isn't meaningless
if we take into consideration that Scathan is working directly for TOAA,
at least in that GOTG arc.

Originally posted by Air Legend
Last but not least, if your theory that TOAA wrote Scathan to be superior to the LT is true, then without TOAA giving Scathan power, Scathan has to be less powerful by default since the LT's only superior is TOAA.

I agree with this.

Only now that builds a new paradox, which is,

is Scathan always backed by TOAA, or was this a special case?

Until further notice from Marvel, I, we, can't say for sure.

Guess we'll have to wait.

Yo Mr. M, wudup 131

Originally posted by Priest
Yo Mr. M, wudup

Chillin, my connection was down for 2 weeks, but I have returned. mwahaha

Mr. M, what about Scathan using what seemed like a basic Celestial muzzle to trap Protege?

Originally posted by Harry Fingerman
Mr. M, what about Scathan using what seemed like a basic Celestial muzzle to trap Protege?

What can I say,
Scathan being a Celestial shouldn't have been able to do what he did to begin with,
they desensitized me to surprises right after the initial shock.

The way I see it, since imo TOAA was behind all this,
nothing Scathan did should be unbelievable.

You know I how I feel inside about all this (PIS)

but it's canon so ... until further info is illustrated or updated in a bio, it is what it was.

Originally posted by Mr Master
What can I say,
Scathan being a Celestial shouldn't have been able to do what he did to begin with,
they desensitized me to surprises right after the initial shock.

The way I see it, since imo TOAA was behind all this,
nothing Scathan did should be unbelievable.

You know I how I feel inside about all this (PIS)

but it's canon so ... until further info is illustrated or updated in a bio, it is what it was. Ya, but it seemed like he used a weapon that you could get at the Celestial market for 10 Celestial dollars, down on Maine.

Originally posted by Harry Fingerman
Ya, but it seemed like he used a weapon that you could get at the Celestial market for 10 Celestial dollars, down on Maine.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Chillin, my connection was down for 2 weeks, but I have returned. mwahaha glad to see u back.

Originally posted by quanchi112
glad to see u back.

Originally posted by Mr Master


were u going through kmc withdrawal?

Originally posted by Mr Master
I agree with this.

Only now that builds a new paradox, which is,

is Scathan always backed by TOAA, or was this a special case?

Until further notice from Marvel, I, we, can't say for sure.

Guess we'll have to wait.

If Scathan was always backed up by TOAA, then he would be second only to TOAA and the LT would be third to TOAA. So because the bios state that the LT's only superior is TOAA, until further notice the LT is greater than Scathan by default because if Scathan was ALWAYS backed up by TOAA then Scathan would be second only to TOAA and thus he would be recorded that way in the bios.

Scathan was shown to be superior in one instance. Using that logic, you could make a case for:

1) TOAA
2) TOAA-powered Scathan
3) LT

Unfortunately, the caveat is that TOAA-powered Scathan means that the Scathan bit is superfluous. Anything empowered by TOAA to a greater extent than LT is going to be > LT, like G and his heralds. The herald that G gives the most PC to is the most powerful, regardless of pre-herald power level.

Due to the fact that we have only seen Scathan once, using that as a case for Scathan > LT is nonsensical, because Scathan is only > LT with TOAA's backing, and anything with TOAA's backing is simply a feat for TOAA itself.

Basically, if I only ever ran a single 100m race at the Olympics, and I pumped myself full of drugs before the race, and broke the WR as a result, it would still be void, as 1) my normal levels were not established and 2) the victory was down to an external boost, which means other runners could replicate that with the same boost. Scathan has no other appearances, so unless a case can be made that Scathan > LT by himself, all we have is TOAA-powered Scathan > LT, which doesn't mean anything at all with respect to Scathan's power.

Bump.

Its whoever TOAA designates to in this case. Normally that is LT. But in that particular arc it was Scathan. So, if TOAA gives LT authority to destroy Scathan.. it is LT, if he gives Scathan orders it is vice versa. If TOAA wanted them to destroy eachother, he could, lol. Obviously, I see no reason why Scathan would be acting under TOAA in this case, so I'm going with LT. For the win.

LT ftw.

Scathan used a Celestial muzzle on Protege. LT did the rest

Seems = to me

Maybe get a more definitive answer if Scathan returns in the new GOTG

this should end in a stalemate

How u been

Good to see ya

Originally posted by Ouallada
Scathan was shown to be superior in one instance. Using that logic, you could make a case for:

1) TOAA
2) TOAA-powered Scathan
3) LT

Unfortunately, the caveat is that TOAA-powered Scathan means that the Scathan bit is superfluous. Anything empowered by TOAA to a greater extent than LT is going to be > LT, like G and his heralds. The herald that G gives the most PC to is the most powerful, regardless of pre-herald power level.

Due to the fact that we have only seen Scathan once, using that as a case for Scathan > LT is nonsensical, because Scathan is only > LT with TOAA's backing, and anything with TOAA's backing is simply a feat for TOAA itself.

Basically, if I only ever ran a single 100m race at the Olympics, and I pumped myself full of drugs before the race, and broke the WR as a result, it would still be void, as 1) my normal levels were not established and 2) the victory was down to an external boost, which means other runners could replicate that with the same boost. Scathan has no other appearances, so unless a case can be made that Scathan > LT by himself, all we have is TOAA-powered Scathan > LT, which doesn't mean anything at all with respect to Scathan's power.
That WOULD be true, but only if it were fact that Scathan was powered by LT. That's MM and other's OPINION but until something concrete is said the feat is a valid display of Scathan's power.

The question would be, was the muzzle simply a weakness to protege? Would it work on the LT? just because Protege had the Lt's powers, doesn't mean he didn't have also his OWN weaknesses to begin with. He never lost his humanity or what ever the hell he was.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Would it work on the LT? Scathan only made one muzzle for Protege. You'd clearly need three muzzles for LT. uhuh

In short, Scathan fails here.

Here's my take. Scathan had to step in not because LT would've gotten beaten but because LT and LT copied Protege would've been an eternal stalemate. Which might explain Scathans presence, perhaps only he has the ability to nullify the LT's power. But, I believe in the grand scheme of things the LT is above Scathan as far as control. I think that the LT could judge against Scathan and sentence him.

In terms of power on power? Can't argue with on-panel feats. Scathan defeated what was, in essence, the LT.

Protege>LT. He had plenty of other copied powers besides LT.

I guess that depends on whether or not you believe the LT is Omnipotent. If he is, it wouldn't matter who else he copied, he'd have all those abilities and more.

Nah. Stated on panel, Protege exceeds the power of the abstracts including LT as his powers stack.

LT.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Nah. Stated on panel, Protege exceeds the power of the abstracts including LT as his powers stack.
I would like to see this scan.

Is it just me or is Scathan an aspect of the Living Tribunal, considering how approval is an aspect of judging?

Originally posted by Astner
Is it just me or is Scathan an aspect of the Living Tribunal, considering how approval is an aspect of judging?

Maybe his "new" and hidden 4th face? !!

Originally posted by Astner
Is it just me or is Scathan an aspect of the Living Tribunal, considering how approval is an aspect of judging?
LT has aspects all over the place like Eternity and Death. They vary in power wildly.

What puzzles me is that we never see LT directly attack Protege does we?

He just stands there waiting for Scathan to make his move (It seems that way)

Originally posted by Utrigita
What puzzles me is that we never see LT directly attack Protege does we?

He just stands there waiting for Scathan to make his move (It seems that way) And because of this we have to figure out ourselves what the writer's intent was of this altercation.


That meanie.


I always though Scathan was equal or slightly superior never below the Lt. But he had one appearance and one mean nasty feat. Meh thats my opinion anyways take it or leave it.

I'm not trying to place myself above the writer, just mentioning details that I myself find interesting when looking at the incident concerning Scathan, LT and Protege.

Originally posted by Utrigita
I'm not trying to place myself above the writer, just mentioning details that I myself find interesting when looking at the incident concerning Scathan, LT and Protege. Yeah I know.


I read this a long time ago as well so my memory could be a little fuzzy here.

I loved the gotg though. I read the first issue of the new gotg. Too early to tell if it will be good or not.

Originally posted by Utrigita
What puzzles me is that we never see LT directly attack Protege does we?

He just stands there waiting for Scathan to make his move (It seems that way)

Prior to Protege duplicating and attacking them, with Scathan present, Living Tribunal flat-out states that there is only one above him.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_LTScathan1.jpg

This is also confirmed in the Living Tribunal's handbook.
So if Scathan isn't more powerfull than the Living Tribunal, then why would the Living Tribunal need its help ?

Oh wait, Scathan has 'teh celestial muzzle' which somehow pwns Protege.

I find this character vastly overrated on this forum. In the end, what did he do ? Use the celestial muzzle on Protege, somehow blinding him from what transpires and then held him while Living Tribunal owned him.

Meh .. whatever.

edit

Originally posted by King Kandy

Protege>LT. He had plenty of other copied powers besides LT.
This is true.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Nah. Stated on panel,
Protege exceeds the power of the abstracts including LT as his powers stack.
Originally posted by Air Legend

I would like to see this scan.

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/4194/protegetd5.th.jpg

Evidently in this arc, it was true.

Originally posted by Astner

Is it just me or is Scathan an aspect of the Living Tribunal,
considering how approval is an aspect of judging?
Hmm ... that's a cool thought, but I doubt it.

Originally posted by Utrigita

What puzzles me is that we never see LT directly attack Protege does we?

He just stands there waiting for Scathan to make his move (It seems that way)
Protege attacked the LT it seems.

Also,
from now on I think we should consider that Scathan is situated in the future,
and until further notice,
we shouldn't include him in present-day battles,
unless otherwise specified.

Just a thought.

I reviewed this scenario more thoroughly some time after this thread,
and my opinion had changed.

I haven't thought Scathan > LT for a while,
and was compelled to see it at LT = Scathan (in some undefined form)
or perhaps not, it may be Scathan > LT ... you decide.

To begin with,

the LT was definitely weaker than Protege:

=================================


After Protege copied LT's power,
Beyonder stated "on the boy rests the fate of any and all realities"

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/441423_Pro1.jpg

...........................................................................


The writer gives us the reactions of the LT, Eternity, Scathan and Hawgod.

The LT's conclusion is ... "logical confirmation"

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/441424_Pro2.jpg

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/441425_Pro3.jpg


So the LT himself agrees!

...........................................................................

...........................................................................


Here Eternity states that Scathan's "purpose
is to record and approve of what transpires"

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/441435_Pro4.jpg

...........................................................................


Here the LT seems to know Protege has now surpassed his power.

Protege notices the LT, Eternity, Hawkgod and GOTG are joining against him,
so Protege summoned Mephisto and his daughter to attack the GOTG,
'Talon' was wearing the 'Ancient One's Amulet' ...
the LT actually states he/they may need it later against Protege:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/441436_Pro5.jpg

...........................................................................

...........................................................................


Protege attacks the LT, Eternity, Hawgod and GOTG,
they all seem to be getting stomped (LT looks peculiar ... but he's there)

The only one NOT there is 'Scathan'

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/441437_Pro6.jpg

...........................................................................


Now Scathan appears again on panel
with authority and majesty:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/441438_Pro7.jpg


Protege is rendered in-affective:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/441439_Pro8.jpg


...........................................................................

...........................................................................


The LT hands down his judgement on Protege:

The LT states that "power is meaningless beyond this level of existence"
which is true, because the next step is "God"

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/441452_Pro9.jpg

...........................................................................


The LT absorbs Protege into the 'Eternal Hourglass' which lies within the LT:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/441453_Pro10.jpg

Again,
it's Scathan that has the last say in the matter (sorta speak)

"And so it ends, and Scathan approves"



=================================


This is proof that Protege had surpassed the LT in power.

Evidently what the LT said earlier was true,
they were indeed going to need the 'Ancient One's Amulet'
the LT specifically.

Here we learn that the LT was using the 'Ancient One's Amulet'
as a source of power to increase his own in order to deal with judging Protege:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/441454_Pro11.jpg

===================================

As for the Handbook account:

(excerpts from the official Marvel Handbook - LT bio 2006)

===================================


LT's bio states that only TOAA is superior to the LT

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/5738/lt1df4.th.jpg

...............................................................................


LT's bio also corroborates what took place on panel in the GOTG arc,
it also clearly states that Scathan saved Realty:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/441478_LT.jpg


srugdoped

Since Protege was absorbed into LT, does that mean that LT now is stronger than Protege could be since he has all of his abilities as well?

Whoah, never considered that one. Maybe nvr was on to something about the LT being upgraded.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Since Protege was absorbed into LT,
does that mean that LT now is stronger than Protege
could be since he has all of his abilities as well?
I thought of that before, it's a good point.

But it doesn't seem like Protege was absorbed per se,
the Eternal Hourglass (whatever that is) is what imprisoned Protege,
it seems he'll be lost there for ever, and yes within the LT.

Or maybe he was nullified in way, once within the Hourglass:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/441512_Pro1.jpg

"Cosmic Time begins anew
bearing away all it encounters"


I'm not absolutely sure,
but it seems to me,
he was rubbed out of Time, or trapped within Time.

Perhaps that's why it's called the "Eternal Hourglass"

But isn't it part of the LT? So that means he's inside of it, and could call on his powers if need be?

LT is known for summoning other powers to fight for him, in those scans you posted he was using that amulet, when he faced Ereshkigal with the Star Brand he threatened to "summon the most powerful forces in the multiverse to destroy her", he summonded a bunch of cosmics and other beings to fight Thanos with the HOTU, etc.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

But isn't it part of the LT? So that means he's inside of it,
and could call on his powers if need be?
Possibly I guess, but we would be speculating quite a bit to go there.

On Panel nothing further was divulged,
and the Handbooks haven't clarified anything further.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

LT is known for summoning other powers to fight for him, in those scans you posted he was using that amulet, when he faced Ereshkigal with the Star Brand he threatened to "summon the most powerful forces in the multiverse to destroy her", he summonded a bunch of cosmics and other beings to fight Thanos with the HOTU, etc.
True that,
but those are all outside sources,
Protege, is supposedly within the LT now, in one form or another.

Well, not now actually, cause technically,
that event hasn't happened in real time yet.

That's the 31st Century.

Not sure , but the way i see it....unless you are the supreme being in the comic book setting ie TOAA in Marvel i guess, then surely all others below will either upgrade or down grade over time , due to either an increase/decrease in relevance... of course the supreme being ,by nature is all that is, was, and will be so any talk of upgrade/downgrade is arguementative..

cheers

But LT can travel in all timelines and percieves time non-linearly. When he confronted Adam Warlock he already knew the result since he wasn't limited by time.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

But LT can travel in all timelines and percieves time non-linearly.
When he confronted Adam Warlock he already knew the result since he wasn't limited by time.
True, but if we don't follow a protocol when it comes to time,
then we might as well say the LT is insignificant because Mankind has reached it's potential,
and the LT is now beneath Mankind, as is his/her (Humanity's) destiny.

No, I think it's best we distinguish the past, present and future accordingly,
lest we end up in said paradox's like I just pointed out.

@ Mr Master: According to the scans you provided, Scathan is greater than the Living Tribunal. However, like I stated earlier in this thread, that contradicts LT's position as second only to TOAA. I would like to see the full last five pages of the Protege encounter so I can properly analyze the context of the this story.

Also, if it is in the future, doesn't that mean it's just another possible reality of the main universe?

Originally posted by Air Legend

@ Mr Master: According to the scans you provided, Scathan is greater than the
Living Tribunal. However, like I stated earlier in this thread, that contradicts LT's position as second only to TOAA.


It's a contradiction, within a contradiction really,
cause the asininity goes further by literally including both details within the same bio.
Originally posted by Air Legend

I would like to see the full last five pages of the Protege encounter so I can properly analyze the context of the this story.
*edit*

Actually I just checked the issue,
all the relevant pages of #50 are there, including the last 5 pages.
Originally posted by Air Legend

Also, if it is in the future,
doesn't that mean it's just another possible reality of the main universe?
Yes. That's why I was telling Mike we should only consider Scathan when specifically requested,
otherwise, there's no reason he should be included with the Celestials of 616,
since his first appearance on panel was in the 31st century.

I mean, he could've been a new creation, a new evolved Celestial,
an agent of TOAA, a Conceptual representation of "approval/disapproval"
etc.

Originally posted by Mr Master
...........................................................................


The LT hands down his judgement on Protege:

The LT states that "power is meaningless beyond this level of existence"
which is true, because the next step is "God"

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/441452_Pro9.jpg

...........................................................................


The LT absorbs Protege into the 'Eternal Hourglass' which lies within the LT:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/441453_Pro10.jpg

Again,
it's Scathan that has the last say in the matter (sorta speak)

"And so it ends, and Scathan approves"



=================================


This is proof that Protege had surpassed the LT in power.

Evidently what the LT said earlier was true,
they were indeed going to need the 'Ancient One's Amulet'
the LT specifically.

Here we learn that the LT was using the 'Ancient One's Amulet'
as a source of power to increase his own in order to deal with judging Protege:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/441454_Pro11.jpg I shoul dget out my gotg and read them again. Nicely done. So I see that according to this story

Scathan>Protege>Lt.


I havent read this in a long time but I see I have been underestimating the Protege this entire time. There were such powerful beings in this story.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Protege attacked the LT it seems.

No he didn't, he was possibly on his way to but as this scan clearly shows

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/441437/Pro6.jpg.html

Protege is launched forward, attacked from behind by Scathan that we a moment later finds out does not approve of what Protege was about to do.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Prior to Protege duplicating and attacking them, with Scathan present, Living Tribunal flat-out states that there is only one above him.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_LTScathan1.jpg

This is also confirmed in the Living Tribunal's handbook.
So if Scathan isn't more powerfull than the Living Tribunal, then why would the Living Tribunal need its help ?

Oh wait, Scathan has 'teh celestial muzzle' which somehow pwns Protege.

I find this character vastly overrated on this forum. In the end, what did he do ? Use the celestial muzzle on Protege, somehow blinding him from what transpires and then held him while Living Tribunal owned him.

Meh .. whatever.

And in the very same book it's stated that Protege and Scathan surpasses him, It's self contradicting, unless Scathan was Toaa in Disguise and Protege too. It's a comic book that will most likely always be the fundament of discussions.

Originally posted by Utrigita
No he didn't, he was possibly on his way to but as this scan clearly shows

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/441437/Pro6.jpg.html

Protege is launched forward, attacked from behind by Scathan that we a moment later finds out does not approve of what Protege was about to do.
Are you blind? He clearly assaulted everyone in the picture (LT was there).

Originally posted by Mr Master


It's a contradiction, within a contradiction really,
cause the asininity goes further by literally including both details within the same bio.

*edit*

Actually I just checked the issue,
all the relevant pages of #50 are there, including the last 5 pages.

Yes. That's why I was telling Mike we should only consider Scathan when specifically requested,
otherwise, there's no reason he should be included with the Celestials of 616,
since his first appearance on panel was in the 31st century.

I mean, he could've been a new creation, a new evolved Celestial,
an agent of TOAA, a Conceptual representation of "approval/disapproval"
etc.
I agree. That story was full of PIS(s).

Originally posted by Air Legend
Are you blind? He clearly assaulted everyone in the picture (LT was there).

Protege clearly didn't assault anyone in that picture.

Protege says "prepare yourself for eternal Oblivion" and then kaboom and in the very middel of the scan we have Protege being thrown forward. If that is a attack it has to be the strangest one I have ever seen he clearly changes his body position and then energy that was showed emiting from him in the panel above is now gone. and again we have Scathan appearing directly afterwards not approving, from my point of view it's obvious that Scathan attacked Protege because he didn't approve of Protege making ready to destroy the abstracts

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/441437/Pro6.jpg.html

Originally posted by Utrigita
Protege clearly didn't assault anyone in that picture.

Protege says "prepare yourself for eternal Oblivion" and then kaboom and in the very middel of the scan we have Protege being thrown forward. If that is a attack it has to be the strangest one I have ever seen he clearly changes his body position and then energy that was showed emiting from him in the panel above is now gone. and again we have Scathan appearing directly afterwards not approving, from my point of view it's obvious that Scathan attacked Protege because he didn't approve of Protege making ready to destroy the abstracts

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/441437/Pro6.jpg.html
Fair enough. You edited.

okay

I believe Scathan was backed up by TOAA. Because Celestials (even whole race from all realities) are so beneath Protege that it isn't even funny and than one Celestial, Scathan, comes and stop him. I think he was fully backed up by TOAA (especially because he didn't even look having trouble in stoping him).

... I agree X.

Originally posted by Utrigita

Protege clearly didn't assault anyone in that picture.

Protege says "prepare yourself for eternal Oblivion" and then kaboom and in the very middel of the scan we have Protege being thrown forward. If that is a attack it has to be the strangest one I have ever seen he clearly changes his body position and then energy that was showed emiting from him in the panel above is now gone. and again we have Scathan appearing directly afterwards not approving, from my point of view it's obvious that Scathan attacked Protege because he didn't approve of Protege making ready to destroy the abstracts

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/441437/Pro6.jpg.html
I have to disagree.

Protege definitely attacked in that scan:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/441437_Pro6.jpg

We clearly see everyone in the panel being affected.
(LT looks peculiar, but imo, the artist included him as part of the group getting owned)

Notice the thing that owned Protege (Scathan) is not there.

Also,
the fact that the LT had to increase his power by tapping into the 'Amulet'
assures us that Protege was quite capable of doing what's being depicted in that panel.

Is it pis?

Heck yea.

Did it happen though, as in, is it canon?

Yea.

Originally posted by Mr Master
... I agree X.


I have to disagree.

Protege definitely attacked in that scan:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/441437_Pro6.jpg

We clearly see everyone in the panel being affected.
(LT looks peculiar, but imo, the artist included him as part of the group getting owned)

Notice the thing that owned Protege (Scathan) is not there.

Also,
the fact that the LT had to increase his power by tapping into the 'Amulet'
assures us that Protege was quite capable of doing what's being depicted in that panel.

Is it pis?

Heck yea.

Did it happen though, as in, is it canon?

Yea.
Nah, dude I thought the same at first, but Ultrigrita is right. Scathan's the one that caused the kaboom. Just look at the orange fumes.

Originally posted by Air Legend

Nah, dude I thought the same at first, but Ultrigrita is right.
Scathan's the one that caused the kaboom. Just look at the orange fumes.
Hmm ... I have to agree after looking at this again.

The fumes give it away.

(nice catch Utrigita)

Still though,
Protege had surpassed the LT in power, which is funny,
this we know, but what we also know,
is that Scathan came with his kaboom,
and everyone, including the LT, were thrown around by it.

This (at-least in this arc)
convincingly places Scathan above them both.

Not to mention the LT needed the Amulet
to try and do what Scathan did with a gesture and under his own power.


The PIS thickens.

Thanks both of you

There is a scan master that points towards that not being the case... Something about LT saying there is only one above LT ore something along that line. Again a example of how bad this comic is written.

I cannot decisively agree with you master that LT was owned too, from my point of view he remains standing along with Eternity and Hawkgod and they "shields" themselves from the impact (even though it appears that Hawkgod was knocked further back then Eternity), the mortals as expected gets thrown around. What I would like was to see all of LT's face and not just his eyes, along with eternity face instead of his back.

What really makes my angry when dealing with this comic is the amulet, especially since we know that LT is not allowed to attempt to raise his own powerlevels beyond there already existing capacity.

TOAA > Beyonder > Molecule Man > Scathan > Protege > LT

Why?
LT passes judgment, but it can only be done when Scathan approves it. It shows that Scathan is fully backed up by TOAA. LT's role is to be a judge, but the execution of judgment is initiated either by TOAA himself or Scathan.

Originally posted by Utrigita

Thanks both of you

Originally posted by Utrigita

There is a scan master that points towards that not being the case... Something about LT saying there is only one above LT ore something along that line.
Again a example of how bad this comic is written.
That's better labelled as bad writing,
cause that scan of the LT saying that
does not dismiss the fact that he needed the 'Amulet' to judge Protege.

It also does not dismiss the fact that when Beyonder said,
any and all realities rests on the boy
the LT agreed with logical confirmation.

Originally posted by Utrigita

I cannot decisively agree with you master that LT was owned too, from my point of view he remains standing along with Eternity and Hawkgod and they "shields" themselves from the impact (even though it appears that Hawkgod was knocked further back then Eternity), the mortals as expected gets thrown around. What I would like was to see all of LT's face and not just his eyes, along with eternity face instead of his back.
I didn't say Scathan owned him,
I said the LT along with the rest, were thrown around,
the artist wouldn't have included the LT in that scan
if he didn't want to portray that, imo.
Originally posted by Utrigita

What really makes my angry when dealing with this comic is the amulet, especially since we know that LT is not allowed to attempt to raise his own powerlevels beyond there already existing capacity.
He raised them, cause Protege was above him in power by that point.

Protege had his power, plus the addition of all the rest save for Scathan.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
TOAA > Beyonder > Molecule Man > Scathan > Protege > LT

Why?
LT passes judgment, but it can only be done when Scathan approves it. It shows that Scathan is fully backed up by TOAA. LT's role is to be a judge, but the execution of judgment is initiated either by TOAA himself or Scathan.

I'm not sure I agree with your list. I'd place Scathan ahead of Owen and add Mad Jim Jaspers ahead of Molecule Man. Possibly ahead of Scathan.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
I'm not sure I agree with your list. I'd place Scathan ahead of Owen and add Mad Jim Jaspers ahead of Molecule Man. Possibly ahead of Scathan.

What makes Jim Jaspers more powerful than either Scathan or Molecule Man?
IMO he's just a Marvel version of Mr. Mxyptlk

Well, for one, he's an omniversal threat. I think me putting him above Scathan is too much. But, I'd him in the same league as MM or above.

Originally posted by Mr Master


Well have been thinking about it for some time but haven't had the chance to discuss it with the majority of the cosmic interested posters, until now.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's better labelled as bad writing,
cause that scan of the LT saying that
does not dismiss the fact that he needed the 'Amulet' to judge Protege

It also does not dismiss the fact that when Beyonder said,
any and all realities rests on the boy
the LT agreed with logical confirmation.

I Know but my point was to show the contradictions that are residing in this book, that one second LT finds it impossible that anyone is above him the next he agrees with beyonder and then again Beyonder was wrong.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I didn't say Scathan owned him,
I said the LT along with the rest, were thrown around,
the artist wouldn't have included the LT in that scan
if he didn't want to portray that, imo.

Okay my bad, however what level does we put into Thanos blasting Back Galactus does we say Thanos > Galactus?

Originally posted by Mr Master
He raised them, cause Protege was above him in power by that point.

Protege had his power, plus the addition of all the rest save for Scathan.

Yet a scan that you yourself have posted in the Living Tribunal Respect thread directly says that the LT is not allowed to raise his own powerlevels, and in reality that shouldn't be required either since LT is only second to TOAA, also that drawing on a amulet would make LT more powerful seems laughable.

Originally posted by Utrigita

Well have been thinking about it for some time but haven't had the chance to discuss it with the majority of the cosmic interested posters, until now.
Indeed.
Originally posted by Utrigita

I Know but my point was to show the contradictions that are residing in this book, that one second LT finds it impossible that anyone is above him the next he agrees with beyonder and then again Beyonder was wrong.
Look, the arc itself makes me dubious about everything that took place.

In the LT respect thread, I clearly blasted the events of this arc,
had it not been for my discovery that it is confirmed as canon,
I would never accept any of this.

And even then, I still say it's pis, but canon pis nonetheless.
Originally posted by Utrigita

Okay my bad, however what level does we put into Thanos blasting Back Galactus does we say Thanos > Galactus?
I wasn't placing Scathan based on that particular incident.

I place Scathan according to his feat over Protege,
who was, insane as it is, more powerful than LT.

In the end, Eternity actually comments, that Scathan approves,
as though Scathan had the last say in all this.
Originally posted by Utrigita

Yet a scan that you yourself have posted in the Living Tribunal Respect thread directly says that the LT is not allowed to raise his own powerlevels
I don't recall.
Originally posted by Utrigita

and in reality that shouldn't be required either since LT is only second to TOAA, also that drawing on a amulet would make LT more powerful seems laughable.
I definitely agree.

The Amulet?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Indeed.

Yes.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Look, the arc itself makes me dubious about everything that took place.

In the LT respect thread, I clearly blasted the events of this arc,
had it not been for my discovery that it is confirmed as canon,
I would never accept any of this.

And even then, I still say it's pis, but canon pis nonetheless.

And PIS incidents are according to forum rules not to be used in debates so why doesn't we just have a nice little fire...

Originally posted by Mr Master
I wasn't placing Scathan based on that particular incident.

I place Scathan according to his feat over Protege,
who was, insane as it is, more powerful than LT.

In the end, Eternity actually comments, that Scathan approves,
as though Scathan had the last say in all this.

And the on panel feat was to blast him from behind and place a energy blanket over his head... It seems more like a observation on Eternity's part since as mentioned repeatedly through the comic Scathan was only there to observe (he breaks his vow but hey)

Originally posted by Mr Master
I don't recall.

http://img253.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ltisom4vl7.jpg

The starband he cannot possess it because of it's power (either way that's what I gather from the scan)

Originally posted by Mr Master
I definitely agree.

The Amulet?

Yes the Amulet of the Ancient one (ore what is was) ambed LT

Heh...

These conversations always amuse me.

There is an issue with all of this speculation though. Scathan simply did a and places an energy muzzle on an unsuspecting Protege, restraining him. He never exerted any actual power upon Protege in a direct assault and counter assault, and never removed the power Protege already possessed. There's no basis whatsoever behind the assertion that Scathan>>>LT based on Protege, an impetuous and arrogant child, being muzzled. In that entire sequence LT doesn't act until the very end. The power Protege possessed was never removed from him, he was simply restrained by Scathan, then LT orders Scathan to remove the restraints so that Protege can make his peace before he, LT, levies judgement on Protege.

This entire scenario makes absolutely no sense.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
I'm not sure I agree with your list. I'd place Scathan ahead of Owen and add Mad Jim Jaspers ahead of Molecule Man. Possibly ahead of Scathan.

As powerful as MJJ was, he would be easily owned by Scathan, Protege or LT.

Protege was so powerful, it's ridiculous.

The Beyonders would beat MJJ too imo.

Well ill stick to LT saying there is only one above him who is TOAA. Frankly IMO the writing of the whole LT,Protege Scathan incident reminds me of the blackpanther armbar thing. It is best forgotten IMO

TOAA>LT yes

As for where I place Scathan, I call it even

LT needing the amulet. That was funny

I been telling ppl for years, a Celestial is powerful

Originally posted by Utrigita

And PIS incidents are according to forum rules not to be used in debates
so why doesn't we just have a nice little fire...
I would, only I don't believe it falls under the category of pis per forum rules.

Scathan never appeared in Marvel before,
Scathan was never defeated before,
Scathan has no known power-set that we know of.

His first appearance, is all we have to go by,
and according to that only arc he's ever been a part of,
he was = or above the LT. (people see it differently)

Scathan being a Celestial, is the paradox.
Originally posted by Utrigita

And the on panel feat was to blast him from behind and place a energy blanket over his head... It seems more like a observation on Eternity's part since as mentioned repeatedly through the comic Scathan was only there to observe (he breaks his vow but hey)
"To observe and to approve of what transpires."

The on panel feat was a gesture:
this gesture was the manifestation of Scathan's power,
indeed, it instantly made Protege in-affective.
Originally posted by Utrigita

http://img253.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ltisom4vl7.jpg

The starband he cannot possess it because of it's power
(either way that's what I gather from the scan)
Ut. That doesn't say he can't add it to his power,
it says he would have to give up his "authority" if he did.

That's because the LT must be apart, even though he could be all,
he can not partake in the squabbles of greed and power ambitious desires like non-concepts do,
the LT must follow protocol if he wishes to keep his status as ultimate Judge.

Also,
the Strabrand is an anomaly within the prime Multiverse.

I remember the same thing happened
when the Stranger brought a planet from the New Universe into Eternity,
it contained the Starbrand,
the LT had to seal that planet in an impenetrable barrier,
to avoid it upsetting the balance.
Originally posted by Utrigita

Yes the Amulet of the Ancient one (ore what is was) ambed LT
Now that ... is truly senseless, and down right crazy

I will tend to disagree master since Scathan (as you mentioned yourself is a celestial) showed a powerlevel far above what any Celestial has ever been seen operating on.

By using a energy muzzle as Il mentioned on the previous page that is in reality all what Scathan did on panel, blasted Protege from behind and then placed the energy muzzle above his head, and then he let LT handle the rest.

Ahh okay my bad.

That I'm mentioning it ore that is happened in the comic

Scathan = Mute Cosmic Bailiff.

In a nut shell.

Originally posted by Utrigita

I will tend to disagree master since Scathan (as you mentioned yourself is a celestial) showed a powerlevel far above what any Celestial has ever been seen operating on.

By using a energy muzzle as Il mentioned on the previous page that is in reality all what Scathan did on panel, blasted Protege from behind and then placed the energy muzzle above his head, and then he let LT handle the rest.
I have no idea what you're disagreeing with here.

If Scathan can put an energy muzzle to Protege, he can downright do it too to LT. LT is much weaker than Protege, he had to use his 'amulet' to amp himself up.

This is how I think the hierarchy should be:

TOAA > The Beyonders (ALL) > Death Wings (ALL) > Scathan > Protege > Molecule Man > LT

I'd put LT above Protege if he taps on his 'amulet'

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
If Scathan can put an energy muzzle to Protege, he can downright do it too to LT. LT is much weaker than Protege, he had to use his 'amulet' to amp himself up.

This is how I think the hierarchy should be:

TOAA > The Beyonders (ALL) > Death Wings (ALL) > Scathan > Protege > Molecule Man > LT

I'd put LT above Protege if he taps on his 'amulet'

I do not agree. Protege copied LT's power and didn't immediately have omnicience. Thus the entire affair was orchestrated by the one above all. He's the only one who could over rule the Lt's omnicient powers.

Originally posted by fangirl101
I do not agree. Protege copied LT's power and didn't immediately have omnicience. Thus the entire affair was orchestrated by the one above all. He's the only one who could over rule the Lt's omnicient powers.

I disagree. My opinions are based on on-panel facts, not mere assumptions.

Protege copied LT's power + other celestial/cosmic powers, thus making him stronger and more powerful than LT. If it wasn't for Scathan's muzzle and LT's 'amulet', LT was done for.

With LT's power, Protege could very well be the ultimate judge to replace LT. He could also replace/remove Eternity if he so desires, although this can cause an imbalance to the whole Omniverse.

I understand that TOAA is the ONLY one who can dictate the actions of every character in Marvel. I'm not that dumb, you know.

But I have my share of doubts about LT's 'omniscience'.
He has been beaten so many times by beings supposedly weaker than him, it's not even funny.
I'm quite sure that the Beyonders are more powerful than LT, since their powers are a million times stronger than that of the Marvel multiverse.

And the Death Wings, well we all saw what they can do to Galactus. Imagine a whole flock of them attack the LT

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
I disagree. My opinions are based on on-panel facts, not mere assumptions.

Protege copied LT's power + other celestial/cosmic powers, thus making him stronger and more powerful than LT. If it wasn't for Scathan's muzzle and LT's 'amulet', LT was done for.

With LT's power, Protege could very well be the ultimate judge to replace LT. He could also replace/remove Eternity if he so desires, although this can cause an imbalance to the whole Omniverse.

I understand that TOAA is the ONLY one who can dictate the actions of every character in Marvel. I'm not that dumb, you know.

But I have my share of doubts about LT's 'omniscience'.
He has been beaten so many times by beings supposedly weaker than him, it's not even funny.
I'm quite sure that the Beyonders are more powerful than LT, since their powers are a million times stronger than that of the Marvel multiverse.

And the Death Wings, well we all saw what they can do to Galactus. Imagine a whole flock of them attack the LT

Then all of the LT's bios are wrong. He is not the 2nd most powerful being in all of marvel creation. The LT is so far above all other beings that all thier power stacked wouldn't be enough to beat him or even add to his power.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Then all of the LT's bios are wrong. He is not the 2nd most powerful being in all of marvel creation. The LT is so far above all other beings that all thier power stacked wouldn't be enough to beat him or even add to his power. The Lt is the second most powerful being in all of marvel creation. Again Lt had to draw power from the amulet against the Protege. If the Protege wasnt a multiversal threat then the Lt wouldnt have gotten involved. He didnt face off against Thanos in the ig because he was above the ig. The Protege was a threat to him hence his involvement.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer

This is how I think the hierarchy should be:

TOAA > The Beyonders (ALL) > Death Wings (ALL) > Scathan > Protege > Molecule Man > LT
No way.

In the present day Marvel Universe:

TOAA > LT > Beyonders > MM (Owen's alter ego) >>>> Death Wings.


In the Future, at-least by the 31st century in the Marvel Universe:

TOAA > Scathan > Protege > LT > BeyonderS > MM (Owen's alter ego) >>>> Death Wings.


Since time isn't a factor to the LT,
we might as well extract Protege from the equation,
cause Protege is trapped for all eternity withIN the LT.
Originally posted by occultdestroyer

Protege copied LT's power + other celestial/cosmic powers, thus making him stronger and more powerful than LT. If it wasn't for Scathan's muzzle and LT's 'amulet', LT was done for.
Protege never copied any Celestial's powers.

The powers Protege copied were,
he GOTG/Mephisto and his daughter,
post-retcon Beyonder/Hawkgod/Eternity and the LT.
Originally posted by occultdestroyer

With LT's power, Protege could very well be the ultimate judge to replace LT. He could also replace/remove Eternity if he so desires, although this can cause an imbalance to the whole Omniverse.
This is true.
Originally posted by occultdestroyer

But I have my share of doubts about LT's 'omniscience'.
He has been beaten so many times by beings supposedly weaker than him,
it's not even funny.
The LT has only been defeated once,
by the power of TOAA withIN the Omniverse. (THOTI)
Originally posted by occultdestroyer

I'm quite sure that the Beyonders are more powerful than LT,
since their powers are a million times stronger than that of the Marvel multiverse.
That was Pre-Retcon Beyonder's power level,
we have no idea how powerful exactly the BeyonderS are.
They are ridiculously powerful when we consider what a single CCU can do,
and a CCU is literally but a fraction of their power.

Above the LT though?

Nah.
Originally posted by occultdestroyer

And the Death Wings, well we all saw what they can do to Galactus.
Imagine a whole flock of them attack the LT
LT gestures them out of existence.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I have no idea what you're disagreeing with here.

That the incident cannot be removed because of the PIS that concerns it, Scathan Clearly operated far above what Any single Celestial have ever showed prior, it directly contradicts (as you have said yourself many times) everything we know about the Cosmic Hierarchy. I know that handbook stats that Scathan > LT even though LT is said to second to Toaa.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The Lt is the second most powerful being in all of marvel creation. Again Lt had to draw power from the amulet against the Protege. If the Protege wasnt a multiversal threat then the Lt wouldnt have gotten involved. He didnt face off against Thanos in the ig because he was above the ig. The Protege was a threat to him hence his involvement.

If anything him drawing power from the amulet showed how small the space in powerlevel between LT and Protege in reality was, the Amulet own energy would be like a drop in the ocean compared to LT's power. Imo it's like talking the multiverse and pit it against LT no matter how many eternity's you add they still get owned, because LT operates on a level of infinity so far above them that they cannot reach it, and numbers wouldn't matter.

Thanos with the Heart of the Universe is a better illustration actually. No matter how many that battled him they would still be beaten.

If anything, this just shows certain limitations of Living Tribunal's power.

Originally posted by Utrigita
If anything him drawing power from the amulet showed how small the space in powerlevel between LT and Protege in reality was, the Amulet own energy would be like a drop in the ocean compared to LT's power. Imo it's like talking the multiverse and pit it against LT no matter how many eternity's you add they still get owned, because LT operates on a level of infinity so far above them that they cannot reach it, and numbers wouldn't matter.

Thanos with the Heart of the Universe is a better illustration actually. No matter how many that battled him they would still be beaten. Yeah I dont think the Protege dwarfed the power of the Lt at all but I think he did slightly surpass it.

Thanos with the heart was simply unbeatable with what we have seen on panel imo.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
If anything, this just shows certain limitations of Living Tribunal's power.

That can't be, hes from Marvel!!!!

Originally posted by kevdude
That can't be, hes from Marvel!!!!

Yeah. Marvel is like the #1 comics EVAR!!1
Adventure comics and Vertigo comics are the worsest

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yeah I dont think the Protege dwarfed the power of the Lt at all but I think he did slightly surpass it.

Thanos with the heart was simply unbeatable with what we have seen on panel imo.

The amount would be so insignificant that a amulet could surpass it.

Yes he was, before Thanos attained the Heart of The universe the LT was the top of the food chain, at that point of time he would have been unbeatable.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
If anything, this just shows certain limitations of Living Tribunal's power.

Is it still opposition week Erik?

Originally posted by Utrigita
The amount would be so insignificant that a amulet could surpass it.

Yes he was, before Thanos attained the Heart of The universe the LT was the top of the food chain, at that point of time he would have been unbeatable. Meh he went into a different power source because he had to deal with the Protege. He wouldnt tap into the amulet if he didnt need to.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Is it still opposition week Erik?

I tried, but in most threads it seems like nobody is willing to debate.

In any case, in threads where the difference between the overall power difference isn't big enough to make it spite or some sort, I'm willing to debate for either side, eventough if I don't belive that side would actually win.

Originally posted by Utrigita

That the incident cannot be removed because of the PIS that concerns it, Scathan Clearly operated far above what Any single Celestial have ever showed prior, it directly contradicts (as you have said yourself many times) everything we know about the Cosmic Hierarchy. I know that handbook stats that Scathan > LT even though LT is said to second to Toaa.
Ok cool, I actually agree. ... But I never said otherwise.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Ok cool, I actually agree. ... But I never said otherwise.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
I tried, but in most threads it seems like nobody is willing to debate.

In any case, in threads where the difference between the overall power difference isn't big enough to make it spite or some sort, I'm willing to debate for either side, eventough if I don't belive that side would actually win.

Well it's just that opposition week and then you are stating that the current situation showed certain restrictions to LT, one could be tempted to believe that actually you where saying there where no restrictions...

Originally posted by quanchi112
Meh he went into a different power source because he had to deal with the Protege. He wouldnt tap into the amulet if he didnt need to.

A amulet which own power is like nothing next to the LT himself, and he taps into it, sounds incrediably strange.

whoever has TOAA's backing is the winner....

Did Protege ever copy the Amulet himself? If not, it could just be that Protoge is susceptible to powers which he does not embody/copy.

Originally posted by illadelph12

Did Protege ever copy the Amulet himself?
If not, it could just be that Protoge is susceptible to powers which he does not embody/copy.
Perhaps, but there's nothing to substantiate that.

Ills, what happened, I was enjoying that phrase:

"Energy muzzle ftw" ... smilefist

LT said his power feeds on itself at that level. That blast might have been Proteges
power feeding on itself and weakening him. Scathan then stepped in and muzzled him.
With cosmic time beginning anew this sounds like a cyclic thing, like an Indra in Hinduism who is searching for more and more power and eventually defeats himself and a new age begins.
In the Indra and the ants myth, Indra is defeated (sort of), Shiva is there(Eternity) and Brahman (God/One above All) is present in the disguise of a small boy.
The Celestial may have been OAA or si8mply waited for Protege to use his power and defeat himself.

LT is my fave character

Celestials are my 2nd

Win win for me

Scathan>LT.

Proven.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Scathan>LT.

Proven.

Yeah I saw that. I'm saying that conclusion may be wrong and the writers may have a bit more depth than treating cosmic beings as really tall superheros who sneak up on each other and shoot energy like Silver Surfer vs Morg. Scathan was either a manifestation of OAAs will or was waiting for Prot to defeat himself in a pre-destined cyclic event.
I would hope when dealing with god beings the writers are using mythological themes instead of trying to see which god has has bigger biceps. The "cyclic time" thing is a big giveaway that there is more going on than what is literally shown in each picture.


The LT was able to nullify the IG when Adam Warlock had it. Scathan has been around since Odin fought them. So he also was probably there throwing planets at Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet. He couldn't defeat the IG but LT could.

Although the celestials are a mystery even to Eternity they still can't seem to fight the Gauntlet but LT had no problem with it to Adam warlocks surprise.

The LT was able to do what he did to the IG because TOAA let him do it.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
The LT was able to do what he did to the IG because TOAA let him do it. ?

I was simply debunking his IG arc comparison.

http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/4329/warlockinfinitywatch090.th.jpg

If what he said was true, TOAA would've simply empowered the LT to defeat Protege.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
I was simply debunking his IG arc comparison.

http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/4329/warlockinfinitywatch090.th.jpg

If what he said was true, TOAA would've simply empowered the LT to defeat Protege. I didn't real read what he wrote but where are you getting that TOAA empowers the LT directly and that LT's power level varies depending on situation?

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Scathan>LT.

Proven.

i still believe scathan was given that power for that one time only due to Lt being stymied by protege.

the only evidence there is, and the only evidence that matters is that all that scathan did with his great power was give the Lt the signal to absorb protege.

Originally posted by kgkg
I didn't real read what he wrote but where are you getting that TOAA empowers the LT directly and that LT's power level varies depending on situation?

Uhh provided scan perhaps?

"Because of rulings beyond my control"

Yo.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Uhh provided scan perhaps?

"Because of rulings beyond my control"

I didnt take that to mean his power level varies, but that his ability to act can be curtailed.....




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



I didnt take that to mean his power level varies, but that his ability to act can be curtailed.....




Tazer cosigned

after what thanos and nebula did with the gauntlet, eternity bitched to the LT about making the gauntlet his and his only, since warlock didn't jive with that the next best thing was to take the ig out of the picture for good.

only eternity could legitimize the appeal in that situation.

the LT can be hung up to act if certain conditions are not met.

Yo.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Yes...like the TOAA.

It's the only thing definitively above the LT in the MU.

and the Twins from Marvel vs DC, dont forget them.






Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
and the Twins from Marvel vs DC, dont forget them.


Retconned, b*tch. uhuh

Originally posted by Enyalus
Yes...like the TOAA.

It's the only thing definitively above the LT in the MU. I was talking about TOAA.

Where does this prove this ?

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
facepalm good comeback

You just said exactly what I said.