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Uh, I had to do it.. This is Arthas at his strongest ((Before fusion)) and Illidan around the scenario where Arhas and Illidan meet and fight..

Paladin Arthas gets owned

DeathKnight Arthas owns

illidan, in everyway save fusion imo

What can they do?

Originally posted by Sol Valentine
What can they do?

A lot.. Both of them.. But to simplify things, I'll brief some of their powers up..

Deathknight Arthas holds control over darkness, rituals, superhuman strength and endurance.. He can also animate dead and sacrefice undead to gain health himself.. He's somewhat faster than most humans and he regenerate health quickly.. He's advanced in swordfighting and holds a blade that rip energy out of a foe upon impact- which also grants him a great strategical mind ((which isn't actually his mind)) He can shoot dark magic on his foes.. He can raise already dead targets into indestructable soldiers and fight for him..





Illidan Stormrage, a demonhunter.. vast speed, endurance, stamina, agility ,accuracy, intelligence and strenght.. Got flight.. Can transform into a 30 feet demon with ranged abilities.. He can immolate anyone around him.. He can fire powerful beams out of his eyes.. He holds two magically enchanted blades, forged to destroy demons and dark entities.. He's vast in most human capabilites, except for sight.. He's blind.. At one point, he traded himself the power to read all magic.. He's pretty much magically omniscient.. All sources of magic can he read and understand.. He can launch fireballs, drain life-force, corrupt, launch balls of shadow and darkness, holds an aura that inflict damage to anyone near him.. He can summon demons.. He can create a parasite that infest anyone he choose.. which will devour them from the insied.. He automaticly reduce just aorund 60% of the health of his target.. He can drain the energy of your very soul and fill his life up..


Did I mention he flies?

Illidan.

Originally posted by Sol Valentine
Illidan.

My opinion exactly..

10/10


I made the thread because some doesn't agree with me, and was hoping for a decent debate..

Sorry was out getting food ^^'

I say Arthas.

Main point i am leaning on is the fact that he beat Illidan in TFT

And i have a beautiful quote from Albert Einstien:
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

Secondary point is the in gameplay a DeathKnight > Demon Hunter in gameplay.

Illidan is not a simple demon hunter, he is an empowered, demon with the powers of Kiljaeden, Sarg gave him his magic eyes and furthermore his own elven powers combined with the magic of the well of eternity, his magic powers far exceed Arthas, his two blades of azzinoth although each not the power of frostmourne but together and in his skillful hands, he could easily without being foolish give Arthas a run for his money, not to menstion he can fly, he could keep to the skies and laser beam arthas from all directions and Arthas would have few effective weapons to even harm Illidan, not to menstion his magic drain, he could drain arthas of his energies, burning the energies and harming arthas at the same time, Arthas both in canon and Illidan in canon at both their primes, Arthas would fall if Illidan went all out and bloodlusted taking into account abilities.

although you have a point that in canon, Arthas was weakened greatly, but i dont think this would be the deciding factor at all in this battle, what with Illidans obvious advantages.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Illidan is not a simple demon hunter, he is an empowered, demon with the powers of Kiljaeden, Sarg gave him his magic eyes and furthermore his own elven powers combined with the magic of the well of eternity, his magic powers far exceed Arthas, his two blades of azzinoth although each not the power of frostmourne but together and in his skillful hands, he could easily without being foolish give Arthas a run for his money, not to menstion he can fly, he could keep to the skies and laser beam arthas from all directions and Arthas would have few effective weapons to even harm Illidan, not to menstion his magic drain, he could drain arthas of his energies, burning the energies and harming arthas at the same time, Arthas both in canon and Illidan in canon at both their primes, Arthas would fall if Illidan went all out and bloodlusted taking into account abilities.

although you have a point that in canon, Arthas was weakened greatly, but i dont think this would be the deciding factor at all in this battle, what with Illidans obvious advantages.

I'm quite sure some of the more extreme powers you mention Illidan does not have at this stage. Main reasoning, why didn't Illidan do that when fighting him orginally

Arthas is not a namby-pamby paladin anymore. DeathKnights are alot more powerful than any Night Elf class/unit. Arthas is an exception DeathKnight at that. Deathcoil you see one shot people in cut scenes. Which is a more powerful spell than any i can think of Illidan posesses at this point.

Originally posted by Remindme
I'm quite sure some of the more extreme powers you mention Illidan does not have at this stage. Main reasoning, why didn't Illidan do that when fighting him orginally

Arthas is not a namby-pamby paladin anymore. DeathKnights are alot more powerful than any Night Elf class/unit. Arthas is an exception DeathKnight at that. Deathcoil you see one shot people in cut scenes. Which is a more powerful spell than any i can think of Illidan posesses at this point.

theres nothing to assume he doesnt have them, just because he doesnt use them? its PIS, (plot induced stupidity) that he didnt use them, AND PIS that he didnt come from diffrent directions and didnt defend himself properly, his speed and powers are not neccerily going to be thwarted so easily in a true fight but the truth is AFAIK he has not gained any other major powers from beings or objects since, he doesnt just gain new ones like kain does over a period of time. His major powers come from aritfacts.

Death coil, ime not sure, cant remember when its been used and one-hit something in a cut-scene, what we know is that Illidan can summon through his blades the spirits of Azzinoth, can shoot lasers from his eyes and dark energy beams from his hands, and in demonic form can send forth blast waves of energy in large areas.

Also i was saying falses, Arthas is at full strength, if not stronger than usual when he faces Illidan, Lich king gives him what he could spare of his powers at the beginning of Synthony of forst and flame giving Arthas full strength once more and all his old powers, theres nothing to imply Arthas overcoming Illidan with anything, he simply wins through Illidans foolishness, the guy can fly, why hes flying at a level where he can be reached is beyond me, the guy definatley has some powers of his own, his powers are not even activated in the clip, his immolate for example, he has no powers on at all.

Originally posted by Burning thought
theres nothing to assume he doesnt have them, just because he doesnt use them? its PIS, (plot induced stupidity) that he didnt use them, AND PIS that he didnt come from diffrent directions and didnt defend himself properly, his speed and powers are not neccerily going to be thwarted so easily in a true fight but the truth is AFAIK he has not gained any other major powers from beings or objects since, he doesnt just gain new ones like kain does over a period of time. His major powers come from aritfacts.

Death coil, ime not sure, cant remember when its been used and one-hit something in a cut-scene, what we know is that Illidan can summon through his blades the spirits of Azzinoth, can shoot lasers from his eyes and dark energy beams from his hands, and in demonic form can send forth blast waves of energy in large areas.

Also i was saying falses, Arthas is at full strength, if not stronger than usual when he faces Illidan, Lich king gives him what he could spare of his powers at the beginning of Synthony of forst and flame giving Arthas full strength once more and all his old powers, theres nothing to imply Arthas overcoming Illidan with anything, he simply wins through Illidans foolishness, the guy can fly, why hes flying at a level where he can be reached is beyond me, the guy definatley has some powers of his own, his powers are not even activated in the clip, his immolate for example, he has no powers on at all.

Whats AFAIK??

He doesn't have them in any part of the game until WoW.....so i am assuming he learns such things in OutLand.


Probably with this debate is that now Illidan is in WoW, it's claimable he knows all the things he has then, at the time he fought Arthas.

When Wrath of the Lich King comes out, i bet Arthas knew things he didn't use also, that he didn't gain from becoming the New Lich King.

An example of which is from the WoW game it's arguable that Kel'thuzard would destroy Arthas.


As much as you say Illidan lost due to PIS, Arthas would still have won, Death Coil is a more powerful spell than anything i recall Illidan having. Plus him losing in combat is adaquat proof in my eyes Arthas is a more skilled warrior in melee.

Originally posted by Remindme
Whats AFAIK??

He doesn't have them in any part of the game until WoW.....so i am assuming he learns such things in OutLand.


Probably with this debate is that now Illidan is in WoW, it's claimable he knows all the things he has then, at the time he fought Arthas.

When Wrath of the Lich King comes out, i bet Arthas knew things he didn't use also, that he didn't gain from becoming the New Lich King.

An example of which is from the WoW game it's arguable that Kel'thuzard would destroy Arthas.


As much as you say Illidan lost due to PIS, Arthas would still have won, Death Coil is a more powerful spell than anything i recall Illidan having. Plus him losing in combat is adaquat proof in my eyes Arthas is a more skilled warrior in melee.

it means As Far as i know

thats a fair enough assumption, but its not neccerily true, as i said PIS could be the reason, he did not use any of his abilities in that cinematic sequence and he didnt use many abilities, imagining he has learnt everything especially summoning the blades guardians i feel is a little weightless in the argument simply because its not something you could suddenly learn, not in the time hes beaten to the time hes in outland, illidan may have learnt some spells thats possible, but also his flight speed, we clearly see him moving in an instant what seems to be from the ground to the clouds in seconds. If his speed is that great, its far unlikely that that cinematic is showing what Illidan is truly capable of, the likelieness he has "leant" to move that fast is very low imo since surely you would agree, speed is not something you learn as such, not to that degree thats for sure.

ah but you see Arthas doesnt use his powers in that cinamatic either, which is odd, but Arthas is "supposed" to have new powers by many folds because he is the fusion now and is a near Godlike entity in a literal sense and he would be a God by Warcraft ruling if you accept the damned as his worshipers and the cults. But he has gained many levels of power so he has a reason to have new powers ,illidan on the other hand has not been shown or to have said to gain new abilities since his battle with Arthas, even though time has passed.

Seriously.. No skills, or flight, or strategical movements was used in the fight between Arthas and Illidan.. Have you seen Illidan fight? He's more badass than any Arthas around.. ((Excluding fusion))

And concerning Illidan's powers, he has them.. But he doesn't use them.. Why, I dont know, for he'd annhiliate Arthas in the battle for the frozen throne.. If you so strongly believe he got them after the battle of the frozen throne, tell me where.. Because of what I know about Illidan, he had those powers before WoW..


There's more to warcraft characters than what you meet in the campaign..

Do you think that Jaina could only use three spells? Water Elemental, Blizzard and Teleport? Do you think that the only thing Archimonde could do was summon units and turn people and buildings inside out? That Malfurion could only root his foes, summon living trees and heal the surrounding friendly units?

Originally posted by Darth Extecute
There's more to warcraft characters than what you meet in the campaign..

Do you think that Jaina could only use three spells? Water Elemental, Blizzard and Teleport? Do you think that the only thing Archimonde could do was summon units and turn people and buildings inside out? That Malfurion could only root his foes, summon living trees and heal the surrounding friendly units?


ugh.....

Originally posted by Remindme
Probably with this debate is that now Illidan is in WoW, it's claimable he knows all the things he has then, at the time he fought Arthas.

When Wrath of the Lich King comes out, i bet Arthas knew things he didn't use also, that he didn't gain from becoming the New Lich King.

An example of which is from the WoW game it's arguable that Kel'thuzard would destroy Arthas.

I've already made my point on this.

Originally posted by Remindme
ugh.....



I've already made my point on this.

I saw that point of yours, but your looking at this fight as if it was all up to the in-game cinematic in the end of the Frozen Throne.. They fought hand-to-hand and Arthas won.. Not one single ability was used.. A demon-form Illidan is more badass than an Arthas ever will be ((Excluded fusion))


Take any fight.. The night elf demon hunter takes an undead death knight in melee several times over.. the demon hunter woop death knight ass in an original game..

And yes, I know that Arthas isn't an ordinarly death knight.. But do consider that Illidan is around 15000 or more years old, and he didn't exactly slack around while growing up.. He was the first, and is the strongest demon hunter of existance.. He is barely a demon hunter anymore.. He's a demon with elven blood.. He's a magiciant, a warrior, a demon hunter, a rogue, a bird and more combined..


Arthas.. a warrior with dark magic..

Originally posted by Darth Extecute
I saw that point of yours, but your looking at this fight as if it was all up to the in-game cinematic in the end of the Frozen Throne.. They fought hand-to-hand and Arthas won.. Not one single ability was used.. A demon-form Illidan is more badass than an Arthas ever will be ((Excluded fusion))


Take any fight.. The night elf demon hunter takes an undead death knight in melee several times over.. the demon hunter woop death knight ass in an original game..

And yes, I know that Arthas isn't an ordinarly death knight.. But do consider that Illidan is around 15000 or more years old, and he didn't exactly slack around while growing up.. He was the first, and is the strongest demon hunter of existance.. He is barely a demon hunter anymore.. He's a demon with elven blood.. He's a magiciant, a warrior, a demon hunter, a rogue, a bird and more combined..


Arthas.. a warrior with dark magic..

I dunno, see i think Illidan looks more badass that the new Lick but thats just IMO

No way, Deathknight Twaats a Demon Hunter, he just spams his range with death coil, after level 6 Demon hunter wins, but then you'll have an army with you by then so DK still wins in my book

Saying their not normal is kind of pointless because neither of them are ^^'

He had golden eyes didn't he?

The fact remain in combat, Arthas > Illidan, and thats how they both do things.

Death Coil is also superior to any spell in Illidans arsenal

Originally posted by Remindme
I dunno, see i think Illidan looks more badass that the new Lick but thats just IMO

No way, Deathknight Twaats a Demon Hunter, he just spams his range with death coil, after level 6 Demon hunter wins, but then you'll have an army with you by then so DK still wins in my book

Saying their not normal is kind of pointless because neither of them are ^^'

He had golden eyes didn't he?

The fact remain in combat, Arthas > Illidan, and thats how they both do things.

Death Coil is also superior to any spell in Illidans arsenal

No.. Hand-to-hand in a plot-based battle is where Arthas defeat Illidan.. And none of them used any ability.. If Illidan truly went all out, he'd be in Demon Form in the fight.. So, clearly he both held back and didn't do what it took to win..


And Mana Burn > Death Coil, in more than one way.. Especially like this.. Death Coil inflict damage, while Mana Burn drains the very energy of the being, as well as his health..

Originally posted by Darth Extecute
No.. Hand-to-hand in a plot-based battle is where Arthas defeat Illidan.. And none of them used any ability.. If Illidan truly went all out, he'd be in Demon Form in the fight.. So, clearly he both held back and didn't do what it took to win..


And Mana Burn > Death Coil, in more than one way.. Especially like this.. Death Coil inflict damage, while Mana Burn drains the very energy of the being, as well as his health..

You are aware demon form is just a level 6 power used bacause of what happens to Illidan plot wise? it's not actually a seperate power. They kept it in TFT because it working in game.

Death Coil works on all beings, generally Death Coil > Manaburn. But i get your point. I can't recall which is which but I'm quite sure bana burn does different damage in the expainsion to the expansion....

Arthas Vs. Illidan?

Whats those words that I want to use......

Lets see.....

Ah right!


'LOL'!

hm? what's lol worthy?

Hasn't Arthas like...already beaten this guy?

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Hasn't Arthas like...already beaten this guy?

That being my point, and i'm losing the debate ^^' i must really suck at debating huh?

I haven't seen the fight, there may of been a PIS bullshit reason why Illy lost, kinda like how Ganon loses.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
I haven't seen the fight, there may of been a PIS bullshit reason why Illy lost, kinda like how Ganon loses.

True, but i mean, this was a cutscene fight, and they both favour combat over magic if they can. Arthas did show superior skill in combat....

Guys! Arthas is the Frodo of Warcraft! He is a wuss with loads of huge luck, a neat item and powerful allied

Illidan lost the fight because Blizzard asked him to take a dive

There is no way that someone as noobish as Arthas can defeat Illidan if he use full firepower

Originally posted by Diamond Kisses
Guys! Arthas is the Frodo of Warcraft! He is a wuss with loads of huge luck and powerful allied

Illidan lost the fight because Blizzard asked him to take a dive

There is no way that someone as noobish as Arthas can defeat Illidan if he use full firepower cry

hug

ermmhug

Originally posted by Remindme
True, but i mean, this was a cutscene fight, and they both favour combat over magic if they can. Arthas did show superior skill in combat....

it didn't show anything.. None of them used any magic, or other abilities than plain fighting.. I mean.. Look at the sequence again.. Illidan jumps back, and hoover slowly in the air with his arms spread out when Arthas cuts him.. He pretty much asked him to jump and slice..

In the video, Illidan dodge and parry attacks with vast skills, and suddenly when having an advantage of the fight, he jumps backwards and get sliced.. After reading what DK said about him taking a dive, I had to watch the video again and this is when I noticed this.. I suggest you take a look as well..


And welcome back, DK

Okay then, just one more thing......

If Illidan is undeniably stronger, why is that that Arthas does win? I mean, however you look at this, it was Blizzard's choice that Arthas defeats Illidan, if Illidan is stronger, why doesn't Arthas have help in beating? Why is it it's one on one and yet Illidan still loses.

Remember that cut scene was like it is because they couldn't make it a cinematic. So just because you don't have a more realistic video, you assume it's wrong canon wise? So the reason Arthas won was because of a lower budget than Blizzard planned, that doesn't make the result of this fight any different.

DeathKnight >>> Demon Hunter, Pre level 6

DeathKnight > Demon Hunter, if there are any undead around after level 6 (Death Pact)

Diamond i understand your point, but He got new and much more powerful power after becoming DeathKnight, He wasn't that highly a skilled paladin, yet he wipes the floor with a few when he's a DeathKnight.

p.s Welcome back to us DK ^-^

Originally posted by Remindme
Okay then, just one more thing......

If Illidan is undeniably stronger, why is that that Arthas does win? I mean, however you look at this, it was Blizzard's choice that Arthas defeats Illidan, if Illidan is stronger, why doesn't Arthas have help in beating? Why is it it's one on one and yet Illidan still loses.

Remember that cut scene was like it is because they couldn't make it a cinematic. So just because you don't have a more realistic video, you assume it's wrong canon wise? So the reason Arthas won was because of a lower budget than Blizzard planned, that doesn't make the result of this fight any different.

DeathKnight >>> Demon Hunter, Pre level 6

DeathKnight > Demon Hunter, if there are any undead around after level 6 (Death Pact)

Diamond i understand your point, but He got new and much more powerful power after becoming DeathKnight, He wasn't that highly a skilled paladin, yet he wipes the floor with a few when he's a DeathKnight.

p.s Welcome back to us DK ^-^


Why, you ask? Because if Illidan won, World Of Warcraft would have no foundation.. If Arthas would have died, the circle wouldn't have been completed.. If the circle wouldn't have been completed, the soul of the Lich King would have perished into the ether.. If the soul perished, the scourge would fall to the ground like the lifeless shells that they are..

WoW needs the Lich King.. Without him, there wouldn't be much WoW in the first place.. Therefore, Illidan die by plot.. He flawed in the fight and Arthas smited him..

As consequence, the Warcraft universe lives on; bigger than ever..

Originally posted by Darth Extecute
Why, you ask? Because if Illidan won, World Of Warcraft would have no foundation.. If Arthas would have died, the circle wouldn't have been completed.. If the circle wouldn't have been completed, the soul of the Lich King would have perished into the ether.. If the soul perished, the scourge would fall to the ground like the lifeless shells that they are..

WoW needs the Lich King.. Without him, there wouldn't be much WoW in the first place.. Therefore, Illidan die by plot.. He flawed in the fight and Arthas smited him..

As consequence, the Warcraft universe lives on; bigger than ever..

So, they decided just to make a weaker guy win? It would be easier and make alot more sense to just make him more powerful. I hate to say it but I can't see the base for your point, Illidan displays a wider magic range, though this doesn't not mean more powerful. His age and experience earn him a high rating true, but then most night elves are older than the other races people, but this does not make them better.

The Logic of making the weaker guy win for the sake of the story is flawed IMO. Illidan is weaker than Arthas at this point in time, that is a fact, I'm evening looking for an interveiw for this. Because if Illidan is stronger it should appear, but i have nothing, what about you?

Untrue, WoW needs a being to control the Scourge, this doesn't not neccessarily have to be the Lich King. Kel'Thuzard for one.

If Illidan won, Illidan would be in Notherrend, not Outland, and the demons in Outland would still be present. Arthas's Victory was not critical for the success of World of Warcraft. As the planning for his appearence in it hadn't started to be planned until over 1 years after WoW's release.

p.s though Blizzard seems to always have intended for Arthas to be in WoW it was not confirmed until recently as you well know.

What you have to take into account is that its not always the most powerful guy who wins, even if as i belive Illidan is more powerful and has far more advantages over DK Arthas, you dont really think for example the people who survived the world war did so because their mightier warriors, far more skilled than those millions who died, you have to take into account that Illidan could even if completly forgetting the video, lost due to a foolish move, a random occurance, falling, not being quick enough even if he is actually faster by far, just because someone is faster doesnt mean they would always do the "right" things with their speed.

Overall gameplay means nothing tbh, the fact a death knight or Demon hunter can beat eachother is void since gameplay is stats and balance, nothing to hold a real arguement with, for example if i go in world editor i can change the stats so DK 1 hits any character, but yes stats and balance.

Kelthuzard could not control the scourge, not to the extent of Lich king, the lich king is link to all of them, Kelthuzard may possibly die as well if the lich king falls due to him now being a lich and undead, although i think Kelth may find a way to stop himself dieing if this is the case, Kelth could certainly not control the scourge like the king.

Originally posted by Remindme
So, they decided just to make a weaker guy win? It would be easier and make alot more sense to just make him more powerful. I hate to say it but I can't see the base for your point, Illidan displays a wider magic range, though this doesn't not mean more powerful. His age and experience earn him a high rating true, but then most night elves are older than the other races people, but this does not make them better.

The Logic of making the weaker guy win for the sake of the story is flawed IMO. Illidan is weaker than Arthas at this point in time, that is a fact, I'm evening looking for an interveiw for this. Because if Illidan is stronger it should appear, but i have nothing, what about you?

Untrue, WoW needs a being to control the Scourge, this doesn't not neccessarily have to be the Lich King. Kel'Thuzard for one.

If Illidan won, Illidan would be in Notherrend, not Outland, and the demons in Outland would still be present. Arthas's Victory was not critical for the success of World of Warcraft. As the planning for his appearence in it hadn't started to be planned until over 1 years after WoW's release.

p.s though Blizzard seems to always have intended for Arthas to be in WoW it was not confirmed until recently as you well know.

It would make it more easy, yes.. But why do things have to be easy? There are MANY games and movies where weak characters conquer over all-mighty entities.. For example, Jago killed Jafar.. PEH! Does that make Jago more powerful?


And your right.. Just because an elf is older than others, doesn't mean they are better.. Then again, most elves haven't been blessed by Kil'Jaeden.. Most aren't the first and most powerful demon hunter of existance..


If Illidan won, WoW could never reach the extent that it has.. Without the Lich King, there'd be no scourge.. And honestly.. Can you imagine a WoW without the scourge?

Originally posted by Burning thought
What you have to take into account is that its not always the most powerful guy who wins, even if as i belive Illidan is more powerful and has far more advantages over DK Arthas, you dont really think for example the people who survived the world war did so because their mightier warriors, far more skilled than those millions who died, you have to take into account that Illidan could even if completly forgetting the video, lost due to a foolish move, a random occurance, falling, not being quick enough even if he is actually faster by far, just because someone is faster doesnt mean they would always do the "right" things with their speed.

Overall gameplay means nothing tbh, the fact a death knight or Demon hunter can beat eachother is void since gameplay is stats and balance, nothing to hold a real arguement with, for example if i go in world editor i can change the stats so DK 1 hits any character, but yes stats and balance.

Kelthuzard could not control the scourge, not to the extent of Lich king, the lich king is link to all of them, Kelthuzard may possibly die as well if the lich king falls due to him now being a lich and undead, although i think Kelth may find a way to stop himself dieing if this is the case, Kelth could certainly not control the scourge like the king.

Another question: If the fight was a cinematic and didn't have such a poor ending, would this even be up for discussion? or would you trust the cinematic?

Blizzard planned for it to be a cinemtic, you can blame that slip because of underfunding.

Kel'thuzard wouldn't die, or else Sylvannas would be dead or under LK's control. Powerful undead entities, like Liches or DeathKnights don't need the LK to survive, but being one with him gives them a strategic advantage.

Example: When Sylannas broke free, Kel'thuzard still allied with Arthas, when other undead served the Deadlords

Originally posted by Darth Extecute
It would make it more easy, yes.. But why do things have to be easy? There are MANY games and movies where weak characters conquer over all-mighty entities.. For example, Jago killed Jafar.. PEH! Does that make Jago more powerful?


And your right.. Just because an elf is older than others, doesn't mean they are better.. Then again, most elves haven't been blessed by Kil'Jaeden.. Most aren't the first and most powerful demon hunter of existance..


If Illidan won, WoW could never reach the extent that it has.. Without the Lich King, there'd be no scourge.. And honestly.. Can you imagine a WoW without the scourge?

No doesn't make such characters all powerful. Why are you talking like Arthas is weaker? you have yet to prove that. Feats maybe?

Ner'Zhul was cursed by Kil'jaeden with power unknown to Kil'jaeden himslef, and Arthas has a part of that power, Forstmourne. Demon Hunter is a title, like Arthas Dragon Slayer, Arthas Scourge's Fist, Arthas Wizard Destroyer, Arthas Paladin pwner etc

Yes it would, in some form or another. For one thing there would have been blood elves from before, and alot more naga. There would have been Undead in some form or another. Like i said, Arthas hasn't been introduced even yet, so you cannot make such a wild claim.

Originally posted by Remindme
Another question: If the fight was a cinematic and didn't have such a poor ending, would this even be up for discussion? or would you trust the cinematic?

Blizzard planned for it to be a cinemtic, you can blame that slip because of underfunding.

Kel'thuzard wouldn't die, or else Sylvannas would be dead or under LK's control. Powerful undead entities, like Liches or DeathKnights don't need the LK to survive, but being one with him gives them a strategic advantage.

Example: When Sylannas broke free, Kel'thuzard still allied with Arthas, when other undead served the Deadlords



depends on the outscome, if the characters still didnt use their full powers then it wouldnt matter if it was a cinematic or not, ofcourse it would be up for duscussion, Illidan has tonnes of advantages on his side including flight. Possible speed, the only thing DK arthas i think "may" beat him in is strength and ofcourse a more powerful weapon (altho Blades of Azzinoth are incredibly powerful themselves so thats debatable)

fair enough on Kelth not dieing, but you have to take into account he wouldnt be able to control the scourge, anywhere near to the power of the lich king, also Darth is quite right, its far more exciting for players to meet a fusion of arthas and lich king than it would be for say, Kelthuzard at the end, or Illidan, throughout the series King was seen as a very high character that players would want to meet

Originally posted by Burning thought
depends on the outscome, if the characters still didnt use their full powers then it wouldnt matter if it was a cinematic or not, ofcourse it would be up for duscussion, Illidan has tonnes of advantages on his side including flight. Possible speed, the only thing DK arthas i think "may" beat him in is strength and ofcourse a more powerful weapon (altho Blades of Azzinoth are incredibly powerful themselves so thats debatable)

fair enough on Kelth not dieing, but you have to take into account he wouldnt be able to control the scourge, anywhere near to the power of the lich king, also Darth is quite right, its far more exciting for players to meet a fusion of arthas and lich king than it would be for say, Kelthuzard at the end, or Illidan, throughout the series King was seen as a very high character that players would want to meet

I doubt that, this whole thread was born of the idea of PIS because Illidan got cut because of his defenses, thus the point would never have been bought up.

Tonnes of advantages? that you can prove? The only things you can Prove is Speed he has a slight advantage, and a bigger arsenal of spells, You however cannot prove Illidan is more magically powerful...or atleast you have not thus far

Frostmourne > Blades of Azzinoth

Not all of the scourge, but some of it i bet he would be able to. Maybe, but at the time when this battle was written World of Warcraft was just an idea, so it's irrelevent

Originally posted by Remindme
I doubt that, this whole thread was born of the idea of PIS because Illidan got cut because of his defenses, thus the point would never have been bought up.

Tonnes of advantages? that you can prove? The only things you can Prove is Speed he has a slight advantage, and a bigger arsenal of spells, You however cannot prove Illidan is more magically powerful...or atleast you have not thus far

Frostmourne > Blades of Azzinoth

Not all of the scourge, but some of it i bet he would be able to. Maybe, but at the time when this battle was written World of Warcraft was just an idea, so it's irrelevent

it could be PIS in a cutscene jsut as much as in any other media, the fact is in what Blizzard showed, he opens himself wide, and is foolish, if they used a cinematic it could of gone the same way, you dont have to just overpower an enemy to win, it doesnt work like that in real battle.

what do you mean just an idea, sure, and ideas often have tonnes of plans before their created, for all we know they "could" have already planned this, half of the blizzards storylines are preset. They dont just design games as their going along, before they go in production they already have half the story of several games if not the whole story desigend in scripts.

Tonnes of advantages, yes, flight...can you prove Arthas has more power? thats void, Death coil can be used by warlocks in WoW, so its not like its a special super Arthas ability and theres nothing that can prove its as incredibly powerful as you seem to think it is, especially not more so than the incredible lasers and beams illidan can do, in flight no less..speed, the bolt is a projectile, all Illidan in reality would have to do is move skywards while littering the ground with lasers and all kinds of beams, not to menstion his summons, spirits of Azzinoth, which he can summon without bodies required unlike Arthas summons.

we have little evidence that Arthas has great magic ability,especially compared to Illidan who has had so many magical aritfacts powered onto him its almost a joke, he even drank from the well of eternity if i remember correctly, Arthas' powers are the small few the lich king empoers onto him, but do not make the mistake he has the Lich kings powers at all. Many deathknights have Arthas same set of powers.

Originally posted by Remindme
Like i said, Arthas hasn't been introduced even yet, so you cannot make such a wild claim.


I dont got much time, so I didn't bother read it all trough properly and reply to it all.. Youll get a full reply later..

For now....


Arthas HAS been introduced.. Your thinking of the Lich King.. The Lich King is introduced in the next patch..

I am surprised this discussion got two pages

Illidan dances Arthas to death

Remember everybody that in Warcraft III they fought to a standstill none could gain a advantage, but in Warcraft III frozen throne Illidan had gained a significant upgrade from Kil'Jaeden, and Arthus was only back to his old self because the LichKing used much of his power to get him back to normal capacity.

Also I would like to state another point that in the Manual of Monster Illidan is far from as strong as the Artha/lichking fusion, but Arthus alone based on previous states is i we follow that line no match for Illidan.

ofcourse imo the fusion beats almost everything, at least below Demi-god level

Originally posted by Burning thought
ofcourse imo the fusion beats almost everything, at least below Demi-god level

I think it beats many demi-god entities as well.. I'd put fusion around, or just below aspect level..

Agreed, but in that Manual if Illidan transforms himself into a demon his states actually gets close to that of the LichKing (surely because of the tamperings from Kil'Jaeden.)

This is out of the top of my head since I doesn't have the book currently.

ime not sure about this book, whats its accuracy like, its date of publish and such? wheres it come from, is it canon?

Originally posted by Burning thought
ime not sure about this book, whats its accuracy like, its date of publish and such? wheres it come from, is it canon?

2003 and there isn't a lot that has changed in that time in regards to Arthas and Illidan besides the fact that he later has gone insane.

Canon , Indeed. It's this book

http://www.wowwiki.com/Manual_of_Monsters

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z156/DiffidentAngel/submission_from_radblade.jpg

lol explain this then

Originally posted by Remindme
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z156/DiffidentAngel/submission_from_radblade.jpg

lol explain this then

PIS

Originally posted by Remindme
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z156/DiffidentAngel/submission_from_radblade.jpg

lol explain this then

First of all, Illidan is larger than Arthas- so already that picture fails

Originally posted by Diamond Kisses
First of all, Illidan is larger than Arthas- so already that picture fails

Lol it's concept art from Blizzard offically ^^'

He is still larger ermm

And weaker.

That is not the discussion at matter


And Arthas is weaker than Illidan

Originally posted by Diamond Kisses
He is still larger ermm

Lol, whats your scource?

mines Blizzard

Originally posted by Diamond Kisses
And Arthas is weaker than Illidan

I disagree, espeically if your mean physically

Originally posted by Remindme
Lol, whats your scource?

mines Blizzard

Warcraft 3 - The Frozen Throne

Originally posted by Diamond Kisses
Warcraft 3 - The Frozen Throne

If you mean the ingame models, that is just gameplay

Is this not > Game < versus?

He is also bigger in High-Resolution videos

Originally posted by Diamond Kisses
Is this not > Game < versus?

He is also bigger in High-Resolution videos

the wc3 models aren't to scale

concept art and cutscenes they are the same size, I win

Illidan is huge

First of all, he is an elf Elves are in all cases taller than humans! Secondly, he is taller than most elves

Elves are tiny.

Not warcraft elves

Illidan isn't that big, and is about human size, don't make me get the videoes, that's just annoying

Originally posted by Remindme
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z156/DiffidentAngel/submission_from_radblade.jpg

lol explain this then

Fanart..

Dunno about that, it's the same style as all the other illusatrations Blizzard released

Originally posted by Remindme
Dunno about that, it's the same style as all the other illusatrations Blizzard released

It's fanart..

You don't think it's curiously the same style as.....


http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z156/DiffidentAngel/dragon-800.jpg

Originally posted by Remindme
You don't think it's curiously the same style as.....


http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z156/DiffidentAngel/dragon-800.jpg

The whole point with fanart, is that it's supposed to be a bit blizzard-ish..

I'm not convicned, the symobols on the sword are perfect match to the real thing, all the armor and details are perfect.

Either that is flawless fanart

Or it's the real deal

its not flawless, for example Illidan doesnt have wings in that picture

Originally posted by Remindme
Lol it's concept art from Blizzard offically ^^'

and yet Illidan has no wings, the only other time they fought they fought to a standstill.

http://www.blizzard.com/inblizz/fanart/images/screens/ss017-thumb.jpg

http://www.blizzard.com/inblizz/fanart/images/screens/ss017-thumb.jpg

http://www.blizzard.com/inblizz/fanart/ScreenShot.shtml
- Page 31 -

Ah okies ^^ and fine, it's not flawless, but the arthas is

Originally posted by Remindme
Ah okies ^^ and fine, it's not flawless, but the arthas is

Neither is flawless, but it's a truly well-made picture..

Originally posted by Darth Extecute
Neither is flawless, but it's a truly well-made picture..

True