Palpatine and the Force

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JCapt Jaeh_K.S
I just realized this a few minutes ago.

Why couldn't the Jedi feel Palpatine's strong connection to the dark side of the force when they were around him?

if i'm correct, they should've felt the 'dark side' in the room whenever their with him.

If he blocked their Jedi senses, I dunno, I think they would've known someone is blocking them. He's been with Yoda and the council in one room, and no one bloody noticed the possible dark side force or something resonating from Palpy?


or am I just confused by what Jedi can or can't do?

Gideon
Palpatine was simply powerful enough to conceal his Force connection.

General G
Yup, pretty much, it isn't explained in the movies, but he 'clouds' the Jedi's minds while they are around him.

JCapt Jaeh_K.S
oh.. so that's what it is..

thanks.

Schecter
"the dark side clouds everything"

"i think we should inform the senate that our ability to use the force has dimininished"

etc, etc...

JCapt Jaeh_K.S
... meaning they can't pinpoint or something close where the dark side came from...?

Schecter
Originally posted by JCapt Jaeh_K.S
... meaning they can't pinpoint or something close where the dark side came from...?

well, more so meaning that palpatine is a master of manipulating and clouding the force. like a jedi radar-jammer. he's just that damn good...well....evil...yeah

JCapt Jaeh_K.S
so evil that he's good... hmm

err.. he's great.. I guess then.. in an evil sort of way...

queeq
And since they reside on Coruscnat they're always around him. Maybe the clouding even spans the universe... I dunno. It is better not to ask too many questions... wink

JCapt Jaeh_K.S
... or else I might reveal horrible plot holes, or is there some other hilarious or what not reason you would offer?

queeq
Exactly...

JCapt Jaeh_K.S
good to know...

queeq
Yup

Exador
Queeq. This thread has had its question answered. Please close it before it turns into a mindless chat

queeq
Oh, so now you think you are boss?

Exador
I said please, didn't I

cornponious
Speaking of Palpatine...

Always 2 there are, the master and the apprentice...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/cornponious/revengeofthesith.jpg

sithsaber408
Corn! eek!

Roldahayes3
Corn! Dude! Long time no see...

I remember you back from the days of the Giggle Time Happy Thread!

Hows things??

queeq
CORN IS BACK!!! AND WITH A GREAT PIC!!! YAAAYYYY!

Schecter
Originally posted by cornponious

Always 2 there are, the master and the chimpanzee


fixed

queeq
Oh yes.

Smoki
Originally posted by Gideon
Palpatine was simply powerful enough to conceal his Force connection.

i agree

queeq
Hm.

Sesse
Bulldick.

Mace: "the dark side surrounds the chancellor"

queeq
And whole of Coruscant no doubt.

Forcewielder
Originally posted by Sesse
Bulldick.

Mace: "the dark side surrounds the chancellor"

That's only because Palpatine allowed the Jedi to sense him since he's already setting them up to look like traitors in the eyes of the Senate and the galaxy.

Sesse
"I must admit you are here sooner than expected..."

No. Wrong judgement did Palpatine make.

Scary man he was. Yes, very scary.

Schecter
Originally posted by Smoki
i agree

"the dark side clouds everything"

"our ability to use the force has diminished"

so agree, or disagree...its still wrong

nmensfinest
How do those quote contradict what Gideon (the person whom Smoky Bacon agreed with) was saying?

Schecter
reading is fundamental.

nmensfinest
As is reading comprehension.

"The dark side clouds everything."

"Palpatine was simply powerful enough to conceal his Force connection."

No contradiction. Palpatine was responsible for "the darkside cloud everything." Clouding = Concealing, in this context. His force connection comes under the umbrella of "everything." Not to mention, "everything" in this case is quite clearly hyperbolic.

"our ability to use the force has diminished"

"Palpatine was simply powerful enough to conceal his Force connection."

No contradiction. Diminishing the Jedi's ability to use the force would indirectly conceal Palpatine's force connection, given that it is diminishing their ability to sense his force connection.

So... you were saying?

Schecter
he said that palpatine only masked his own force connection, which would directly imply that the jedi could still use the force with the same clarity, with the exception of being able to detect palpatine's power. this is of course untrue since, as i quoted, their ability to use the force was diminished.

its really simple if you stop and think about it, and aren't obsessed with winning the internets.

nmensfinest
"Palpatine was simply powerful enough to conceal his Force connection."

Where's the "only" stated? Where's the "only" implied? I'll answer for you: nowhere. So, to recap, I'm winning the internets, and you're losing it.

Schecter
you are made of win.


but...




he clearly implies that palpatine SIMPLY (as in: simply that he was powerful enough to conceal his force connection) did just that and only that.

reading is fundamental.

but hey, why let reality and the english language wreck your day? denial=win!

Sesse
No trues!

nmensfinest
Originally posted by Schecter
you are made of win.


but...




he clearly implies that palpatine SIMPLY (as in: simply that he was powerful enough to conceal his force connection) did just that and only that.

reading is fundamental.

but hey, why let reality and the english language wreck your day? denial=win!

No. The 'simply' is used to emphasise how powerful he was to do such a thing. It in no way speaks for whether or not the action stated down is direct or indirect. Go back to school, and learn how to say the alphabet. Or better yet, I know someone who teaches literacy, and he's looking for a student. I'd suggest contacting him.

Ushgarak
"Hard to sense, the Dark Side is," says Yoda right from TPM, in direct response to the issue of why the Jedi could not sense the Sith if they were around.. Fairly much end of story.

nmensfinest
Indeed.

Schecter
Originally posted by Ushgarak
"Hard to sense, the Dark Side is," says Yoda right from TPM, in direct response to the issue of why the Jedi could not sense the Sith if they were around.. Fairly much end of story.

hard does not equal impossible. in ep1 till the beginning of ep2 its clear to yoda that he cannot sense the sith master's identity, supporting your statement. yet it is only later that yoda realises they the jedi are "blind". its not difficult at that point. its just downright impossible. if not for anakin's admission to mace, they likely would have been extinguished without a clue as to whodunnit.

its clear from the diologue that sidious does far more than mask his own presence. he outwardly affects and in essence hobbles the jedi's ability to do anything more than use their powers to defend themselves. mace makes it clear in ep3 that the jedi have become useless to the senate in his suggestion to yoda that they admit their folly, and implies resignation.

in other words, its not just the source which is masked but rather all that the sith influences. the senate, the republic army, the federation...pretty much everything that exists outside of their order.

simply put, again: "the darkside clouds everything "

nmensfinest
Schecter = butt hurt.

Schecter
dur

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Schecter
hard does not equal impossible. in ep1 till the beginning of ep2 its clear to yoda that he cannot sense the sith master's identity, supporting your statement. yet it is only later that yoda realises they the jedi are "blind". its not difficult at that point. its just downright impossible. if not for anakin's admission to mace, they likely would have been extinguished without a clue as to whodunnit.

its clear from the diologue that sidious does far more than mask his own presence. he outwardly affects and in essence hobbles the jedi's ability to do anything more than use their powers to defend themselves. mace makes it clear in ep3 that the jedi have become useless to the senate in his suggestion to yoda that they admit their folly, and implies resignation.

in other words, its not just the source which is masked but rather all that the sith influences. the senate, the republic army, the federation...pretty much everything that exists outside of their order.

simply put, again: "the darkside clouds everything "

Well, I'm not really sure any of what you ay there is useful to the argument when Yoda's initial statement in TPM sums it up absolutely. Why can the Jedi not sense Palpatine? Because it's too hard to.

In fact the idea that you can just sense someone on the Dark Side is not supported by the films at any point, so the question should actually be "Why should they be able to sense it?"

But also I don't agree with your point in essence anyway. Mace and Yoda talk of a degredation in their ability to use the Force in the sense of doing things like sensing what is on Kamino, or the future in general- what Goerge Lucas calls the Cosmic Force, as opposed to the Living Forcr which is what gave Qui-Gon the instinct to know it was the Sith in the first place. Even at that point, no-one could just sense Maul was a Sith. It just doesn't work like that.

Sadako of Girth
Yoda seemed to have no problem sensing/knowing that that cave was strong with the darkside though in ESB. And wasn't shy about making statements like "The darkside, I sense in you".

Mind you, that cave probably wasn't cloaking itself actively as Palpatine appeared to have been up til ROTS.

I do sometimes wonder if that the issue of the Darkside being so hard to see, is like a comment/warning on the whole "Banality of evil" concept to an extent at an analogical level.
Especially when titles like "The Phantom Menace" come into play.

Sadako of Girth
Originally posted by Schecter


he clearly implies that palpatine SIMPLY (as in: simply that he was powerful enough to conceal his force connection) did just that and only that.



Im still adamant that Palpatine was not only doing that, but was actually cloaking his appearance 'til the Mace/Palps encounter in ROTS.

Sesse
Yea...

But what about Yodas wisest crack so far...

- Obi Wans transmitted message finally gets relayed to Coruscant-

"Dooku is bad, They are forming a confederation, oh shit, wait... *lightsaber*"

Now Yodas wisdom really shines...

"More happening on Geonosis I feel, than what has been revealed."

No shit Yoda!? The fact that Obi Wan was engaged by a Super battle droids might indicate a somewhat subtle change in atmosphere.

And the fact that half the galaxy seems to be having a picnic down there might be a hint too, if you really think about it.

GJ Yoda!

Like saying after the child-killing hologram in episode 3 that : "Turned to dark side I feel Anakin has." O'rly?

queeq
Indeed. And also: the Jedi are not very impressive. A hundreds and hundreds of years of Jedi experience seem useless against the dark powers of one man.

Schecter
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well, I'm not really sure any of what you ay there is useful to the argument when Yoda's initial statement in TPM sums it up absolutely. Why can the Jedi not sense Palpatine? Because it's too hard to.

its not that simple. you answered why yoda cannot sense, off the bat, that palpatine is a sith. that is not the issue.

they cannot sense his hatred and lust for revenge. they cannot get a grasp of his planning and conspiring. apart from a look of suspicion, a momentary glance from yoda at the beginning of ep2, they are completely in the dark. (pun intended i guess). its not until ep3, that they become suspicious of palpatine. this after he becomes chancellor, creates a clone army behind their backs, and tries to kill padme numerous times. its clear that he is able to mask his thoughts, intentions, and feelings. its also clear from yoda's failed meditation on padme's assassination attempt that palpatine outwardly clouds the vision of the jedi. yoda cannot meditate on the situation at the beginning of ep2 without being bewildered at how blind he has become to the situation.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
In fact the idea that you can just sense someone on the Dark Side is not supported by the films at any point, so the question should actually be "Why should they be able to sense it?"

because they have dealt with the sith before and should have known to not be so obtuse when dealing with the possibility. yoda was the only one who even gave quigon the time of day when he brought up the theory that the sith were involved. its not a question of them being able to sense a sith, but rather being able to sense the dark side.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
But also I don't agree with your point in essence anyway. Mace and Yoda talk of a degredation in their ability to use the Force in the sense of doing things like sensing what is on Kamino, or the future in general- what Goerge Lucas calls the Cosmic Force, as opposed to the Living Forcr which is what gave Qui-Gon the instinct to know it was the Sith in the first place. Even at that point, no-one could just sense Maul was a Sith. It just doesn't work like that.

im not sure who's point you're arguing there, but we're in agreement there:

Originally posted by Schecter

in other words, its not just the source which is masked but rather all that the sith influences. the senate, the republic army, the federation...pretty much everything that exists outside of their order.

simply put, again: "the darkside clouds everything "

as far as being able to sense an actual sith, yoda certainly can sense the dark side. he senses it in the form of fear and anger, just as vader and palpatine can. are you saying that there is no type of force 'red light' which points out an actual sith? well i guess you're correct, but i never said anything to the contrary. my argument is rooted in the idea that palpatine can distort the 'cosmic force', not only concealing his own conspirings, but throwing a shroud over everything he influences, including the jedi.

queeq
Just sensing an overall presence and not the source, is kinda like being blind though.

JCapt Jaeh_K.S
question: I've watched in ep III earlier(it was playing on the bus i was riding- it was for a long trip) and Mace apparently sensed dark side around palpy... and he didn't do anything immediately about it, or even speculated before anakin told him that palpy may be the sith lord... what's up with that?

MadMel
mace didnt have hard evidence..the jedi wanted proof before going after him...
also, for all the jedi knew, palps could have been controlled by an outside force (pun NOT intended)

frankenfeltch
I had always believed (but have never been able to fully prove) that Palpatine had been using the dark side of the force to mask his presence and burdon the Jedi's ability to use the force. I assumed that Palpatine was more powerful than the movies had shown, and George had written it that way on purpose. His true power was supposed to be imagined, rather than seen. He could use the dark side to shade the areas that he didn't want the Jedi to see, hence the reason they couldn't see what was happening on Kamino. Also I had always thought that Palpatine was thousands of years old, and been planning the corruption of the republic during those years.

Sesse
Gee, I too kinda had this thingle that said Palpatine was strong.

General G
Originally posted by frankenfeltch
I had always believed (but have never been able to fully prove) that Palpatine had been using the dark side of the force to mask his presence and burdon the Jedi's ability to use the force. I assumed that Palpatine was more powerful than the movies had shown, and George had written it that way on purpose. His true power was supposed to be imagined, rather than seen. He could use the dark side to shade the areas that he didn't want the Jedi to see, hence the reason they couldn't see what was happening on Kamino. Also I had always thought that Palpatine was thousands of years old, and been planning the corruption of the republic during those years.

It makes more sense that way, why show how powerful a Sith Lord is and have people complain that he is either overpowered or underpowered but leave it to the imagination of the viewer, I like it.

Kamino was also a planet rarely visited, what was there to see unless the Jedi needed for themselves their own clone army, which they didn't they needed.

Thousands of years old? He looks good for his age.

queeq
Myabe Mace thought Palpy was under the control of the Sith Lord.

JCapt Jaeh_K.S
those make sense.

Although I got the impression that he felt something wrong about everything else(a.k.a, palpy)... I knew they weren't supposed to take rash actions, but couldn't he have looked into it more or something....


oh, wait, that was what they asked anakin to do...

queeq
Exactly... laughing out loud

General G
Dumb Jedi.

queeq
Another insult. Noted.

JCapt Jaeh_K.S
I actually agree. they are pretty dumb sometimes.. SOMETIMES.

queeq
Good thing I'm no Jedi.

Rogue Jedi
me tooz.

queeq
I knew that.

Rogue Jedi
good thing youre no sith either.

queeq
Ah... well.... I've got news for you... Siths are sissies.

Rogue Jedi
hardly so. I'd rather face a Sith than a Jedi master.

queeq
I'm worse.

Rogue Jedi
highly doubtful. you are probably as fearful as a sleeping hamster.

queeq
Then you've never seen how vicious hamsters get in their sleep.

Rogue Jedi
no I have not, sir.

queeq
Then you don't know what you're talking about. wink

Rogue Jedi
perhaps?

queeq
Good enough for me.

General G
Just don't open the hamster cage?

queeq
But close this thread? OKAY.

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