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2nd class Soldier Zack Fair somehow ends up in a fist-fight with Advent Children Tifa.

Location : Interior of 7th Heaven Bar

No Materia, Crisis Core Zack , Advent Children Tifa

Who wins ?

No weapons? I guess Tifa with her Limit Breaks.

I dunno.

Ok...Tifa is obviously the more experienced hand to hand combatant...but Zack is kind of tough...and fast as hell.

IMO he should be able to beat her, but since I have no actual proof I'll just go with Tifa.

Edit : Well come to think of it Zack single handedly obliterated dozens of Shinra guards while dodging bullets in Last Order.

I dunno anymore.

Meh...I'll say Tifa to avoid the backlash.

That's a toughie. Tifa is quite skilled with martial arts, but Zack is faster and stronger. Its a toss up, but I say Zack takes it.

That's hard.


Hmmmm.....


Tifa. Just because she have more experience in hth combat.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
Edit : Well come to think of it Zack single handedly obliterated dozens of Shinra guards while dodging bullets in Last Order.

Yeah but Last Order is going to end up being noncanon since Crisis Core is coming out.

Last Order is still very much canon. Only parts retconned in CC are changed, but what wasn't changed is still canon. Last Order is even in the compilation Ultimania.

So Sephiroth DID jump into the reactor ?

Not quite, like I said if CC changed it outright then its changed, but that doesn't negate the rest of LO. Its like this, the compilation has changed many parts of FF VII, especially flashbacks, but that only means those parts were changed, it doesn't mean all of FF VII is non canon.

About Sephiroth's fall. Usually the most recent version of events is canon, however CC only changed it because a few game testers who never saw LO got confused, and in BC, LO, and the reunion files it says he jumps, and Nomura even came out and said it was different in FF VII because Cloud remembered it slightly off. So theres a bit of a conflict here. In the compilation Ultimania it just says some things say he jumped, and other things say he was tossed, so SE is trying to leave it ambiguous and let the player decide which happened.

Zack, wtf.

Keep in mind this is rookie 2nd class Zack vs Tifa at her best in AC. If it were 1st class Zack after Nibelheim then it woud be a no brainer.

Have we seen what Zack could do then?

Not a whole lot, we only see him like that at the beginning of CC. He is still very good, but not nearly as good as he is in LO and the end of CC. For examle, he stumble a bit while trying to run on top of a train, and just isn't as experienced. Also, this fight is pure hand to hand, otherwise I'd say even rookie Zack would smoke Tifa.

Cloud tossing Sephiroth into the reactor was one of the best scenes in the original FF7 and made that whole half-hour's worth of text and Cloud's stupid memory worth it.

Cloud "remembering things wrong" basically makes that whole scene pointless. It's goddam ABOUT HIM REMEMBERING THINGS RIGHT so we know what happened.

Way to stay on topic.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Keep in mind this is rookie 2nd class Zack vs Tifa at her best in AC. If it were 1st class Zack after Nibelheim then it woud be a no brainer.

Actually Zack was already in 1st Class level, in the begin of CC. This is why Angeal said he would promote him, after the first mission of the game. Zack was officially a 2nd class, but in truth, he was already a 1st.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Not quite, like I said if CC changed it outright then its changed, but that doesn't negate the rest of LO. Its like this, the compilation has changed many parts of FF VII, especially flashbacks, but that only means those parts were changed, it doesn't mean all of FF VII is non canon.

About Sephiroth's fall. Usually the most recent version of events is canon, however CC only changed it because a few game testers who never saw LO got confused, and in BC, LO, and the reunion files it says he jumps, and Nomura even came out and said it was different in FF VII because Cloud remembered it slightly off. So theres a bit of a conflict here. In the compilation Ultimania it just says some things say he jumped, and other things say he was tossed, so SE is trying to leave it ambiguous and let the player decide which happened.

IMO it makes more sense to have Cloud toss Sephiroth down the mako reactor.

Perhaps on the level of some lesser first classes, but he is nowhere even near the power he has in LO and the later parts of CC.

Still don't see how Tifa can win this. Just by watching the CC intro I simply acknowledge the fact that Tifa would get WTFpwned.

Cuz she, you know, can hit harder H2H, is faster at striking H2H, and has 10 times as much experience H2H?

Didn't bother to read the stipulation. Keeping it in mind, this is..wow...for the record, what has Zack done in terms of H2H? <- lol

Nothing lol. At least cloud played a boxing game at golden saucer.

What's the anime of FF where Zack uses his sword to act as a shield to block an injured Cloud from Shinra, and then single handedly takes them out. Zack should win, but Tifa can turn this around. I still think Zackary wins.

That was 1st class, super experienced, second best SOLDIER in the world Zack. We're talking 2nd class rookie Zack fighting her. He is stronger physically, but she has more technique than him so its a fair match. Zack in LO would wipe the floor with Tifa.

Probably Tifa against a rookie Zack.

Originally posted by SHM



Tifa. Just because she have more experience in hth combat. Skill > experience

What he said.

Originally posted by Sado-sama
What he said. I feel the need to elaborate if you don't mind.

Lets take the anakin vs dooku duel for example, dooku had far more experience than anakin but his experience was stated to be irrelevant due to the sheer skill of anakins swordplay abilities.

The same can be said for zack and tifa. Tifa may have more experience but zack has demonstrated far greater skill by showing the capability to smack and block bullets with his sword. This alone depicts amazing speed for such a simple feat to be accomplished

Originally posted by GahLakTus
I feel the need to elaborate if you don't mind.I do!

Originally posted by GahLakTus
I feel the need to elaborate if you don't mind.

Lets take the anakin vs dooku duel for example, dooku had far more experience than anakin but his experience was stated to be irrelevant due to the sheer skill of anakins swordplay abilities.

The same can be said for zack and tifa. Tifa may have more experience but zack has demonstrated far greater skill by showing the capability to smack and block bullets with his sword. This alone depicts amazing speed for such a simple feat to be accomplished You'd have a point if Zack was allowed his sword in this fight, but he isn't. It's a H2H battle.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
You'd have a point if Zack was allowed his sword in this fight, but he isn't. It's a H2H battle. Well for an elite soldier wouldn't it be a must to learn h2h techniques? Thats like saying "take the weapons away from any soldier from any nation and they cant fight" when the korean soldiers learned taek won do while the thai soliders learned muay thai.

We know 1st class Zack knows how to fight hand to hand extremely well, look how he did in LO when he fought a bunch of troops with swords while he was unarmed. We don't know 2nd class rookie Zack's H2H skill, though.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Well for an elite soldier wouldn't it be a must to learn h2h techniques? Thats like saying "take the weapons away from any soldier from any nation and they cant fight" when the korean soldiers learned taek won do while the thai soliders learned muay thai. Yes, and that's all well and good, but you can't award someone a win (usually) because you think it makes sense for him to possess skill in H2H...

Supposition vs. actual proven H2H ability?

And, for the record, experience builds skill... and Tifa, in this case, has all the experience.

Originally posted by SwindlingSmurph
Yes, and that's all well and good, but you can't award someone a win (usually) because you think it makes sense for him to possess skill in H2H... Its called using logic and common sense which it occurs to me you lack both.


Originally posted by SwindlingSmurph

And, for the record, experience builds skill... and Tifa, in this case, has all the experience. And again, look at the duel between dooku and anakin. Dooku has over 70 years of fighting experience but got wtf pwned by anakin whom only had like what? 11 years experience? Yoda, whom had 800 years experience couldn't defeat somebody whom had only 60 years experience in this case, emperor palpatine.

So why did they(yoda and dooku) whom had so much experience lost to a duo who had less experience?

Simply because skill > experience.

I can be a skinny ass *** who has been fighting in the ring for the last 20 years but would i be any good against somebody physically stronger, faster and posess greater skill and less experience than me?

If you have common sense then the answer is no

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Cuz she, you know, can hit harder H2H, is faster at striking H2H, and has 10 times as much experience H2H?

Watching Zack's performance in Last Order makes me think he is about even with Tifa in terms of speed and striking power. However Tifa does have the experience advantage because H2H is her expertise while Zack is pretty much being handicapped to give the fair lady a chance.

---

Oh...so we're using a Zack that basically has no feats vs Tifa who is jam packed with feats in AC? Fair. duriroll

An even fight would be Last Order Zack(1st Class and hella experienced) vs AC Tifa.

That isn't an even fight, that would end with Tifa having no bones left in about 10 seconds.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Its called using logic and common sense which it occurs to me you lack both. Lulz.

So, going with someone completely devoid of feats because it makes sense to you they should be able to fight, against a person with H2H feats up the wall, is common sense?

I lol'd.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
And again, look at the duel between dooku and anakin. Dooku has over 70 years of fighting experience but got wtf pwned by anakin whom only had like what? 11 years experience? Yoda, whom had 800 years experience couldn't defeat somebody whom had only 60 years experience in this case, emperor palpatine.

So why did they(yoda and dooku) whom had so much experience lost to a duo who had less experience?

Simply because skill > experience. Thats an extreme case.

In both of those cases, the antagonistic opponent possessed near prodigious force/combat skill.

Whereas, Zack has no feats, so this whole comparison is irrelevant, because Tifa possesses all the skill AND experience.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
I can be a skinny ass *** who has been fighting in the ring for the last 20 years but would i be any good against somebody physically stronger, faster and posess greater skill and less experience than me?

If you have common sense then the answer is no Take away Spider-Man's fighting skill, and Captain America or Daredevil could take him down.

And again, you highlight the element of skill there when there's no evidence Zack possesses any, much less > Tifa's skill.

Originally posted by SwindlingSmurph
Lulz.

So, going with someone completely devoid of feats because it makes sense to you they should be able to fight, against a person with H2H feats up the wall, is common sense?
Its called using logic friend. You make it sound as if zack cannot fight at all if you remove his sword despite the fact that in the real world soldiers are taught at the very least hand to hand combat techniques, to a point where they teach you how to kill your opponent swiftly

More importantly you were unable to see the fact i hinted that it takes common sense to know that a soldier has at the least hand to hand techniques and you completely misunderstood that and attempted to twist that.


Originally posted by SwindlingSmurph

In both of those cases, the antagonistic opponent possessed near prodigious force/combat skill.

Whereas, Zack has no feats, so this whole comparison is irrelevant, because Tifa possesses all the skill AND experience. Sorry but the speed zaxk has demonstrated with his sword is still relevant seeing that him carrying the sword would slow him down despite the fact he still could move in blurs. Now take the sword off and see if he moves any faster.

We also have the fact that zack is physically fit and by the laws of nature physically stronger than a female human being.

Once again you have demonstrated extreme stupidity by using this logic, "Guy A does Feat X, Guy B does not, so it means guy A >>>>>>>>>>>>> B".

I guess the fact that zack could move in blurs and tifa cant it already means he > tifa in hand to hand combat which is very plausible given that he would receive hand to hand training as a soldier and the fact that he is somebody stronger physically, can take more damage, can move in blurs.


Originally posted by SwindlingSmurph

And again, you highlight the element of skill there when there's no evidence Zack possesses any, much less > Tifa's skill. But a case can be made, just because he has never been shown to fight hand to hand doesn't mean he can't, given his status.

Um..I see this debate started out of ignorance. Have you guys seen Last Order ? Zack fends off against multiple soldiers with machine guns with his body alone and without a sword, dodged bullets while seeing them in slow motion and kicked the crap out of them with his limbs. THAT is Zack's H2H skills.

I think he'll rape Tifa (after defeating her with effort...Tifa likes getting raped. 313)

^ Nuff said. And yes sado i did see last order, the "move in blurs" as i was pointing out was from there

Originally posted by GahLakTus


Lets take the anakin vs dooku duel for example, dooku had far more experience than anakin but his experience was stated to be irrelevant due to the sheer skill of anakins swordplay abilities.

The same can be said for zack and tifa. Tifa may have more experience but zack has demonstrated far greater skill by showing the capability to smack and block bullets with his sword. This alone depicts amazing speed for such a simple feat to be accomplished

For reasons I can't explain, as soon as ou mentioned "Skill > Experience" I KNEW you were going to bring this up.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
^ Nuff said. And yes sado i did see last order, the "move in blurs" as i was pointing out was from there tongue

Originally posted by Sado-sama
Um..I see this debate started out of ignorance. Have you guys seen Last Order ? Zack fends off against multiple soldiers with machine guns with his body alone and without a sword, dodged bullets while seeing them in slow motion and kicked the crap out of them with his limbs. THAT is Zack's H2H skills.

I think he'll rape Tifa (after defeating her with effort...Tifa likes getting raped. 313) It's too bad LO is no longer canon, at all. Now it's CC from what I hear. Oh, and this isn't 1st class Soldier Zack from LO anyway, it's 2nd Class rookie Zack.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Its called using logic friend. You make it sound as if zack cannot fight at all if you remove his sword despite the fact that in the real world soldiers are taught at the very least hand to hand combat techniques, to a point where they teach you how to kill your opponent swiftly That's nice. However, it's still complete supposition. ESPECIALLY to assume that they teach skills superior to what Tifa has shown in AC.

Because, if they haven't or don't, then I think it's safe to assume that Tifa holds the edge and skill... and it's illogical to award someone a win because you think it makes sense for them to be superior, despite never proving it.

And, as you've been spouting, skill > experience. Even assuming that (illogical though it may be), Tifa obviously holds the edge in experience, and is the only one with feats to back up assumptions about her H2H skill.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
More importantly you were unable to see the fact i hinted that it takes common sense to know that a soldier has at the least hand to hand techniques and you completely misunderstood that and attempted to twist that. No, there was no misunderstanding. It just has no correlation to your argument... mainly because you're assuming not only that a soldier would have H2H skill (which is fair), but that this skill would be superior to Tifa's... which is groundless, and, again, illogical.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Once again you have demonstrated extreme stupidity by using this logic, "Guy A does Feat X, Guy B does not, so it means guy A >>>>>>>>>>>>> B". "Extreme stupidity"? Lulz...

Characters that have feats to back up statements vs. characters that win or lose based entirely on your supposition?

More like...

"Guy A consistently demonstrates skill in this department, Guy B does not, therefore we can assume Guy B is teh bestest!!1!!!1!"


Originally posted by GahLakTus
I guess the fact that zack could move in blurs and tifa cant it already means he > tifa in hand to hand combat which is very plausible given that he would receive hand to hand training as a soldier and the fact that he is somebody stronger physically, can take more damage, can move in blurs. I think you'll find my debate has been entirely on whether Zack possesses skill superior to Tifa, which has been your implication all along.

If you would like to switch arguments to incorporate his superior stats and inferior skill, I won't argue.


Originally posted by GahLakTus
But a case can be made, just because he has never been shown to fight hand to hand doesn't mean he can't, given his status. A case could be made that Average Joe Soldier knows how to defend himself.

I'd still say Bruce Lee possesses superior skill.

i agree 100% with SwindlingSmurph
2nd class zack will lose to tifa at her best..

Originally posted by SwindlingSmurph

I think you'll find my debate has been entirely on whether Zack possesses skill superior to Tifa, which has been your implication all along.

I think you'll find my debate has been entirely on whether Zack possesses stats superior to Tifa, which has been my implication all along with the fact that i tried to make a case.

And the fact im argueing because you make it sounds as if zack has no H2h skills at all but seeing that you conceded that.

Your original implication that tifa would win was based solely on tifas experience as i have pointed out is fallible. Heres the quote.

And, for the record, experience builds skill... and Tifa, in this case, has all the experience.


THAT was what i was argueing. And remember i said its plausible that he could defeat tifa if you understand the word given his superior stats.

Now the only thing which will not allow me to give zack a win is as you pointed out, the feats he has yet to show with H2H. But again why couldn't it be plausible that he may or may not win seeing he can move at speeds faster than the eye can see?

well, seeing as he couldn't in the intro, im guessing he cant

Fine then, ill just concede, reply all you want but i won't give a rebutal because i think i did make some mistakes

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Fine then, ill just concede, reply all you want but i won't give a rebutal because i think i did make some mistakes Ok.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
It's too bad LO is no longer canon, at all. Now it's CC from what I hear.

The Nibelheim Incident of LO is not cannon anymore, but Zack and Cloud's scape still is.

Maybe it will not change the opinion of anyone about this fight, but... Information about Tifa's "Final Heaven", from the Compilation Ultimania:

Quote: text near image of Tifa charging spirit energy into her fist
Brandishing her right hand, she concentrates her fighting spirit into her clenched fist.

Quote: text near image of Tifa with her fist shining bright
With the fist that starts to emanate light depending on the amount of spirit energy gathered, she deals a massive blow to the monster!

Quote: text near image of Tifa's explosive finishing punch
The spirit energy that is sent into the monster through her fist starts to destroy it from within, crushing it together with a big explosion.

It seems a very powerful attack(especially the part in bold). Could Zack survive it?

Probably not.
But she'd have to hit him with it for that to really matter.

Zack is heterosexual and thus starts off at a disadvantage against Tifa. However he is stronger and faster.
But OTOH Tifa is more skilled in unarmed MA fighting.

It's a very nifty battle.

Weren't the best candidates for SOLDIER scouted out and recruited by the turks?

Zack was recruited and Tifa wasn't. IMO on that alone, it should belong to Zack.

That made less sense than that pic of Darth Vader at the beach.

Zack at this point has not one H2H feat. Whereas Tifa was taking it to Loz, who would DESTROY Zack in H2H.

And Tifa when Zack was recruited was just a little girl(maybe teen). And judging her appearance, she doesn't LOOK that tough, when in fact, in terms of H2H, she takes this match easily.

*sighs* for those who haven't played the game then.

It's mentioned early on in the game that the Turks are assigned to scout and recruit possible candidates for SOLDIER. Since they are also involved with kidnap and murder on the inside, it wouldn't be a leap to assume they don't have issues with forcefully recruiting people.

Zack was picked up, and he lives in a place similar to Tifa& Cloud.

My point being that if Zack was picked up, then it was because he shown promise even since having anything to do with fighting. For that reason i believe that even at that inexperienced time in his life Zack would more than likely be able to take Tifa. As She wasn't picked up so it would seem her natural skill is much lower than Zack's.




You say Loz would destroy Zack, How do you know? You clearly remember less about the games, and in general seem to know allot less about FF7 than myself. So, why may i ask, if i cannot say anything like that, do you feel your opinion in that instance is fact?

Tifa got owned by Loz.

Loz AND Yazoo got owned by diseased Cloud.

If i had to call that, Zack would take it. (That being this Zack, the inexperienced one)

Originally posted by EvilAngel
*sighs* for those who haven't played the game then.

It's mentioned early on in the game that the Turks are assigned to scout and recruit possible candidates for SOLDIER. Since they are also involved with kidnap and murder on the inside, it wouldn't be a leap to assume they don't have issues with forcefully recruiting people.

Zack was picked up, and he lives in a place similar to Tifa& Cloud.

My point being that if Zack was picked up, then it was because he shown promise even since having anything to do with fighting. For that reason i believe that even at that inexperienced time in his life Zack would more than likely be able to take Tifa. As She wasn't picked up so it would seem her natural skill is much lower than Zack's.




You say Loz would destroy Zack, How do you know? You clearly remember less about the games, and in general seem to know allot less about FF7 than myself. So, why may i ask, if i cannot say anything like that, do you feel your opinion in that instance is fact?

Tifa got owned by Loz.

Loz AND Yazoo got owned by diseased Cloud.

If i had to call that, Zack would take it. (That being this Zack, the inexperienced one) 1. Yeah, and?

2. Kay.

3. Tifa didn't show promise early in her life, though she has shown much greater H2H showings than Zack ever did.

4. In H2H, no weapons, Loz would annihilate Zack, he is faster, has greater H2H showings, and more skill.

5. Tifa took it to Loz, he won because of speed.

6. Not H2H, no relevance to this match. Cloud without a weapon would be owned by Loz too.

7. Not in H2H.

Oh, and you were using A>B>C logic.

So after playing through Crisis Core it is painfully obvious that Tifa would get curb stomped in this fight. Angeal told Zack the Buster Sword represented his honor, and that's why he never used it, so after Zack gets the sword, he also rarely uses it.

After Zack picks up the Buster Sword he usually fights hand to hand like with his Rush Assault limit break, or uses the blunt edge of the Buster Sword. So Zack not only has power far greater than Tifa has ever shown, he is also a ver adept hand to hand fighter.

...Zack

The guy got his ass swiss cheesed wit machine guns and it wasn't until he he was shot while on the ground that he died.

Can Tifa dish out any thing close to a Shinra army, not to mention that Zack wasn't really in the best of health in the 1st place. If he were in tip top shape he'd beat the tar outta Tifa.

Let's not forget that Zack isn't some chump when it comes to H2H, he's got the Rush Assault and he hardly ever uses the Buster Sword in battle. He's got some H2H experience.

Doesn't Zack have an advantage since he is infused with mako which would enhance his reflexes to a higher degree? Tifa is human by the way but I think her gloves give her power if I'm not correct. Honestly, AC kind of exaggerated Tifa's abilities as well as Yuffie's (Yuffie wall walks while Tifa punches Loz so that he flies away a considerable distance, jumps a considerable height before throwing Loz, breaking a damned pew). Well may be I'm taking this too far since I'm looking at this from a realistic point of view.

You've been here for two years and you have six posts?

And your point hyrdralisk? Stop quibbling. This discussion isn't about me and my activities. Just say something conducive to the topic.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
You've been here for two years and you have six posts?

Alright, so the dude has a life, big deal.

Life is overrated.

uhh.. whats a life and where can i download it?

Originally posted by Terryc250
uhh.. whats a life and where can i download it?

You have to buy the World of Warcraft expansion pack first.