Phoenix vs. Galactus

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id369
Phoenix in general
Galactus in general

Galactus is not allowed to use the UN.
Phoenix is not allowed to enter the White Hot Room, and telekinetically amputate reality from the multiverse.

Xplosive
Phoenix easily.

Bransolute
Xorn, Magneto... shifty

guy222
wraithwings, gravity reading

The Great Galen
Didn't Galatus wipe the the pheonix force from the existence at one point...or at least attempted to before he changed his mind. Big G FTW.

Terryc250
Didnt Phoenix Rachael avatar (who is weaker then jean) beatdown Galactus?

guy222
Rachel defeated Galactus

Bentley
So Galactus is exactly how hungry?

vlaaad12345
Originally posted by Terryc250
Didnt Phoenix Rachael avatar (who is weaker then jean) beatdown Galactus?
Both times I can remember them fighting galactus was hungry.

Neo Darkhalen
Galactus lost.

Terryc250
Originally posted by vlaaad12345
Both times I can remember them fighting galactus was hungry.

Rachal Phoenix who beat Galactus is the weakest form of Phoenix

Bentley
Which means it is not conclusive, as weak versions are not in this battle. A weak Galactus have been driven away by the likes of Thor, you are essentially making the Phoenix Thor-level.

Ouallada
Meh. F4 has beaten G when he was weak. Phoenix is at or around G level to be fair, but isn't above him by much, if at all.

starlock
Phoenix for the easy win

Sundipped
Originally posted by guy222
Rachel defeated Galactus

Plus it was a 1 shot special straight in the eye.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Terryc250
Rachal Phoenix who beat Galactus is the weakest form of Phoenix

This isn't true at all.

Rachel was one with the Phoenix Force, completely merged.
(everything the Phoenix Force was, Rachel was also)

That Rachel beat a Starving Galactus.


Also,

Phoenix (WHR or not) has never disconnected a Reality from the Multiverse.

Phoenix did however, disconnect a Timeline (Future of reality 15104)
from a Universe. (Reality 15104)

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/5749/n2uo1.th.jpg
"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future OF Reality - 15104"


Phoenix severed the future ... OF ... Reality 15104 ... NOT of 616.

Reality 15104 is a Future Timeline connected to 616.

Galan007
WPOTC is the only version of Phoenix which I believe could beat Galactus.

But in an 'in general' scenario -- Galactus should win every time, imo.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Galan007
WPTOC is the only version of Phoenix which I believe could beat Galactus.

But in an 'in general' scenario -- Galactus should win every time, imo.

thumb up I agree.

Neo Darkhalen
Phoenix won.

Sundipped
Originally posted by Galan007
WPOTC is the only version of Phoenix which I believe could beat Galactus.

But in an 'in general' scenario -- Galactus should win every time, imo.

If u believe WPOTC can beat him then what is this general scenario ur talking about?

vlaaad12345
Originally posted by Neo Darkhalen
Phoenix won.
Against a very weak galactus...earth based heroes have done that.

Mr Master
Phoenix is so overrated by some,

the only thing every fan has to die by is,

"Phoenix amputated/disconnected that Alternate Future Timeline"

"Phoenix destroyed an Alternate Universe in a 'What if' issue"


That's it, that's all Phoenix has done under her own power that's worth mentioning.



And yet,

POST-Retcon Beyonder gave Rachel the FULL power of the embodiment of the Phoenix Force:

(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook 2004 - Marvel Girl bio)
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/6149/beyonderpfbiojb3.th.jpg

"Beyonder once hinted
that Rachel could potentially become equal in power to the previous Phoenix.

Indeed,
the Beyonder granted Rachel the Full power that the previous Phoenix had possessed"

........................................................................................


This is POST-Retcon Beyonder (Cube Being) getting the credit for this.

Heck, Cube Beings aren't even above Aspects of Eternity or even a single Celestial.


On Panel verification:


Beyonder gives Rachel the power:

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4363/b1ld6.th.jpg


Rachel becomes the Full embodiment of the Phoenix Force:

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2637/b2ko2.th.jpg
........................................................................................


So Eternity >>> Celestials >>> Cube Beings >>> Full Phoenix Force

Creshosk
Originally posted by Mr Master
This isn't true at all.

Rachel was one with the Phoenix Force, completely merged.
(everything the Phoenix Force was, Rachel was also)

That Rachel beat a Starving Galactus.


Also,

Phoenix (WHR or not) has never disconnected a Reality from the Multiverse.

Phoenix did however, disconnect a Timeline (Future of reality 15104)
from a Universe. (Reality 15104)

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/5749/n2uo1.th.jpg
"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future OF Reality - 15104"


Phoenix severed the future ... OF ... Reality 15104 ... NOT of 616.

Reality 15104 is a Future Timeline connected to 616. Reality 15104 was a possible future timeline of 616. smile

That whole "being one" thing seems like a lot of fancy talk really. For being one in Endsong the Force sure seemed seperate when Jean had to rip it out of Emma and tell it that they were one.

Rachel is stil the phoenix with the lowest showings who was having no problems whatsoever with the hungry galactus. his blasts weren't haveing any sort of effect on her.

Would decreaseing his hunger increase the power of his bolts and increase his durability?

Are you still thinking that it was three shots? The phoenix flare up in attempt to intimidate shouldn't count, and nor should the shot she took at his harvesting machine. So Rachel oneshotted (only one attack was aimed at him) a hungry galactus.

A normal galactus might fair better but you're still facing two factors. Rachel is the weakest, Galactus did abysmally (got one shotted)

So even increaseing his power wouldn't help much and then throw on your using a more powerful phoenix host as well.

Creshosk
Originally posted by Mr Master
Phoenix is so overrated by some,

the only thing every fan has to die by is,

"Phoenix amputated/disconnected that Alternate Future Timeline"

"Phoenix destroyed an Alternate Universe in a 'What if' issue"


That's it, that's all Phoenix has done under her own power that's worth mentioning.



And yet,

POST-Retcon Beyonder gave Rachel the FULL power of the embodiment of the Phoenix Force:

(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook 2004 - Marvel Girl bio)
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/6149/beyonderpfbiojb3.th.jpg

"Beyonder once hinted
that Rachel could potentially become equal in power to the previous Phoenix.

Indeed,
the Beyonder granted Rachel the Full power that the previous Phoenix had possessed"

........................................................................................


This is POST-Retcon Beyonder (Cube Being) getting the credit for this.

Heck, Cube Beings aren't even above Aspects of Eternity or even a single Celestial.


On Panel verification:


Beyonder gives Rachel the power:

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4363/b1ld6.th.jpg


Rachel becomes the Full embodiment of the Phoenix Force:

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2637/b2ko2.th.jpg
........................................................................................


So Eternity >>> Celestials >>> Cube Beings >>> Full Phoenix Force

Oh ABC logic... Let me try that.

Captain America beat hulk
Cap>Hulk
Hulk beat Thor
Hulk>Thor
Thor Beat Ego
Thor>Ego
Galactus stalemated Ego
Ego=Galactus
Galactus is more powerful that surfer
Galactus>Surfer
Firelord beat surfer
Surfer<Firelord
Spiderman beat Firelord
Firelord<Spiderman
So we get

Cap>Hulk>Thor>Ego=Galactus>Surfer<Firelord<Spiderman

ISn't ABC logic great? smile

Cap>>>Galactus
big grin

vlaaad12345
Originally posted by Creshosk
Reality 15104 was a possible future timeline of 616. smile

That whole "being one" thing seems like a lot of fancy talk really. For being one in Endsong the Force sure seemed seperate when Jean had to rip it out of Emma and tell it that they were one.

Rachel is stil the phoenix with the lowest showings who was having no problems whatsoever with the hungry galactus. his blasts weren't haveing any sort of effect on her.

Would decreaseing his hunger increase the power of his bolts and increase his durability?

Are you still thinking that it was three shots? The phoenix flare up in attempt to intimidate shouldn't count, and nor should the shot she took at his harvesting machine. So Rachel oneshotted (only one attack was aimed at him) a hungry galactus.

A normal galactus might fair better but you're still facing two factors. Rachel is the weakest, Galactus did abysmally (got one shotted)

So even increaseing his power wouldn't help much and then throw on your using a more powerful phoenix host as well.
A normal galactus wipes 3+ solar systems with his ass he would do much more then a little better.

xjustice69x
Originally posted by Creshosk
Oh ABC logic... Let me try that.

Captain America beat hulk
Cap>Hulk
Hulk beat Thor
Hulk>Thor
Thor Beat Ego
Thor>Ego
Galactus stalemated Ego
Ego=Galactus
Galactus is more powerful that surfer
Galactus>Surfer
Firelord beat surfer
Surfer<Firelord
Spiderman beat Firelord
Firelord<Spiderman
So we get

Cap>Hulk>Thor>Ego=Galactus>Surfer<Firelord<Spiderman

ISn't ABC logic great? smile

Cap>>>Galactus
big grin
sounds about rite to me lol eek!

carver9
Originally posted by Creshosk
Oh ABC logic... Let me try that.

Captain America beat hulk
Cap>Hulk
Hulk beat Thor
Hulk>Thor
Thor Beat Ego
Thor>Ego
Galactus stalemated Ego
Ego=Galactus
Galactus is more powerful that surfer
Galactus>Surfer
Firelord beat surfer
Surfer<Firelord
Spiderman beat Firelord
Firelord<Spiderman
So we get

Cap>Hulk>Thor>Ego=Galactus>Surfer<Firelord<Spiderman

ISn't ABC logic great? smile

Cap>>>Galactus
big grin

laughing

Good one, by the way you made a good point with the phoenix and galactus fight on your previous post.

Estacado
Originally posted by Mr Master


http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2637/b2ko2.th.jpg

crylaugh @ that fat watcher.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Creshosk
Reality 15104 was a possible future timeline of 616.

Right.

But the Future Jean amputated belonged to 15104 ... not 616.

Again,
because of 15104's infancy, (150 years old) it was baby (or tiny) Universe.
Like all Realities in Marvel when young.
They are "Tiny" ... so tiny that Watchers can hold them in their hands too.

Originally posted by Creshosk
That whole "being one" thing seems like a lot of fancy talk really. For being one in Endsong the Force sure seemed seperate when Jean had to rip it out of Emma and tell it that they were one.

As you wish,

but I'll consider what Marvel Comics say
until Marvel comics contradicts what was stated on panel.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Rachel is stil the phoenix with the lowest showings

Where is this stated or depicted?

"Rachel is the weakest" ... "Rachel has the lowest showings"


because according to Marvel, Rachel is the avatar most like Jean.

Originally posted by Creshosk
who was having no problems whatsoever with the hungry galactus. his blasts weren't haveing any sort of effect on her.

I'm not impressed at all by Phoenix defeating a Starving Galactus.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Would decreaseing his hunger increase the power of his bolts and increase his durability?

?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Are you still thinking that it was three shots? The phoenix flare up in attempt to intimidate shouldn't count, and nor should the shot she took at his harvesting machine.

100-three or one, I'm still not impressed by Phoenix defeating a Starving Galactus.

Heck, I seen heroes do that.

Originally posted by Creshosk
So Rachel oneshotted (only one attack was aimed at him) a hungry galactus.

As you wish.

Originally posted by Creshosk
A normal galactus might fair better but you're still facing two factors. Rachel is the weakest, Galactus did abysmally (got one shotted)

I'll wait for you to post the proof that states,

"Rachel is the weakest" (avatar I assume)

I provided evidence to the contrary.


WPOTC may be above Rachel.

Originally posted by Creshosk
So even increaseing his power wouldn't help much and then throw on your using a more powerful phoenix host as well.

Normal Galactus beats every Phoenix except for WPOTC.

Galactus insatiable curbstomps WPOTC.

Sundipped
Originally posted by vlaaad12345
A normal galactus wipes 3+ solar systems with his ass he would do much more then a little better.

Not a great feat compared to holding an entire universe in your hands and making amputations to it (baby or not). He may do better but still loses.

vlaaad12345
Originally posted by Sundipped
Not a great feat compared to holding an entire universe in your hands and making amputations to it (baby or not). He may do better but still loses.
So we are using the strongest versions now?then I guess we use the true full powered galactus and he stomps a mudhole in phoenix.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Mr Master
Phoenix is so overrated by some,

the only thing every fan has to die by is,

"Phoenix amputated/disconnected that Alternate Future Timeline"

"Phoenix destroyed an Alternate Universe in a 'What if' issue"


That's it, that's all Phoenix has done under her own power that's worth mentioning.



And yet,

POST-Retcon Beyonder gave Rachel the FULL power of the embodiment of the Phoenix Force:

(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook 2004 - Marvel Girl bio)
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/6149/beyonderpfbiojb3.th.jpg

"Beyonder once hinted
that Rachel could potentially become equal in power to the previous Phoenix.

Indeed,
the Beyonder granted Rachel the Full power that the previous Phoenix had possessed"

........................................................................................


This is POST-Retcon Beyonder (Cube Being) getting the credit for this.

Heck, Cube Beings aren't even above Aspects of Eternity or even a single Celestial.



On Panel verification:



Beyonder gives Rachel the power:

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4363/b1ld6.th.jpg


Rachel becomes the Full embodiment of the Phoenix Force:

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2637/b2ko2.th.jpg
........................................................................................

That's without the "abc" whatever.


Bottomline though,

Cube Beings can grant other beings the FULL Power of the Phoenix Force.


And Cube Beings are MANY levels below a single Celestial in power:

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/6901/44439927ia0.th.jpg


Not abc, just Facts. smile

Sundipped
Originally posted by vlaaad12345
So we are using the strongest versions now?then I guess we use the true full powered galactus and he stomps a mudhole in phoenix.

Nope. Galan gets knocked on his ass again then tries to make Phoenix feel guilt about her power source again. I'll admit it'll take more than a 1 shot this time tho.

spidey-dude
Originally posted by Creshosk

Cap>>>Galactus
big grin laughing

Kutulu
Originally posted by Sundipped
Nope. Galan gets knocked on his ass again then tries to make Phoenix feel guilt about her power source again. I'll admit it'll take more than a 1 shot this time tho.

Galactus was killing off the Phoenix force in one storyline, but the stars began to grow dim and it would have caused damage to the universe, so he stopped. In that storyline though he was on the verge of killing it.

vlaaad12345
Originally posted by Sundipped
Nope. Galan gets knocked on his ass again then tries to make Phoenix feel guilt about her power source again. I'll admit it'll take more than a 1 shot this time tho.
Right,let me know how that delusional fanboy world of yours works out for you.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Sundipped
Not a great feat compared to holding an entire universe in your hands and making amputations to it (baby or not).

Phoenix never held an entire Universe in her hands and made amputations to it.

With PREP (Seven pages to be exact)

Jean amputated the Alternate Future of Reality 15104.

Reality 15104 is 150 years old,
how can this be compared to 616 which has been expanding for Billions of years?

Reality 15104 is a possible Future of Reality 616.

Reality 15104's Future, NOT 616's ...
is what Jean amputated and Repaired in the WHR atomically.

Jean never did anything to Reality 15104 which manifested in her hands.

(read X-Men #154)

At the end of the issue (#154) Jean goes back in time,
changes Scott's mind about Emma & the X-Men,
this then Alters the possible Future of 616.

So essentially it was Scott's decision that created and Altered 15104, not Jean.

Jean ONLY manipulated Scott's decision,
but the power to alter that Reality laid in Scott's mind.
.........................................................................................


BTW.

Uatu did the same thing with Reality 311 (the year 1602 of the 616 Universe)

Uatu held it in his hands, and then placed that entire Universe within himself.

That entire Universe of course was a Timeline just like Jean's,
and a "Tiny" one at that, because it was a young Reality just like Jean's 15104.

Sundipped
Originally posted by vlaaad12345
Right,let me know how that delusional fanboy world of yours works out for you.

Will do. stick out tongue

Creshosk
Originally posted by Mr Master
Right.

But the Future Jean amputated belonged to 15104 ... not 616.
Which in turn belonged to 616. eek!

Can't deny that Mr. Master. wink


Originally posted by Mr Master
Again,
because of 15104's infancy, (150 years old) it was baby (or tiny) Universe.
Like all Realities in Marvel when young.
They are "Tiny" ... so tiny that Watchers can hold them in their hands too.

A baby universe is still a universe.
A kitten is still a cat.
A foal is still a deer
A calf is still a cow.

A toddler is still a human.


Originally posted by Mr Master
As you wish,

but I'll consider what Marvel Comics say
until Marvel comics contradicts what was stated on panel.or your interpritation of what Marvel comics says rather.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Where is this stated or depicted?

"Rachel is the weakest" ... "Rachel has the lowest showings" Its true. smile

Originally posted by Mr Master
because according to Marvel, Rachel is the avatar most like Jean. out of the numbers
1, 2, 3, 4, 5

2 is the number most like 1 however 1 is still not 2.

Though technically you could say that Emma or Storm were weaker phoenixes in Endsong and that What if... Rachel is still no Jean.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm not impressed at all by Phoenix defeating a Starving Galactus. And I'm not impressed by galactus being punked out so easily.

Galactus really doesn't seem to be all that.
Originally posted by Mr Master
? What was hard to understand about that.

Would it increase his durability and the power of his attacks or would it simply increase the amount of energy available to him?

If it doesn't provide any extra durability against attacks or increase his attacking power then a better fed galactus would sitll fair about the same. His blasts having no effect and him feeling as much pain as he did when he was starving.

Originally posted by Mr Master
100-three or one, I'm still not impressed by Phoenix defeating a Starving Galactus.And I'm not impressed by Galactus in general.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Heck, I seen heroes do that. Exactly. Galactus, big whoop. Earth based heroes can beat him..

Originally posted by Mr Master
As you wish.



I'll wait for you to post the proof that states,

"Rachel is the weakest" (avatar I assume)

I provided evidence to the contrary. no2 Not really you haven't. Typical Phoenix speach doesn't cut it when its obviously not true. Otherwise there'd be no disticntion bewteen the phonexii.

Originally posted by Mr Master
WPOTC may be above Rachel.
So if P=J and P=R then J=R since J>R J=/=R therefore P cannot be equal to both R AND J.

Just phoenix initiation speech.


Originally posted by Mr Master
Normal Galactus beats every Phoenix except for WPOTC. To bad you've got no evidence of that. smile

Originally posted by Mr Master
Galactus insatiable curbstomps WPOTC. Nor of this. Funny how you demand "On panel evidence until you change your mind about things you have no on panel verification for. smile

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's without the "abc" whatever.


Bottomline though,

Cube Beings can grant other beings the FULL Power of the Phoenix Force.


And Cube Beings are MANY levels below a single Celestial in power:

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/6901/44439927ia0.th.jpg


Not abc, just Facts. smile Trying to justify your ABC logic?

smile

Sundipped
Originally posted by Mr Master
Phoenix never held an entire Universe in her hands and made amputations to it.

With PREP (Seven pages to be exact)

Jean amputated the Alternate Future of Reality 15104.

Reality 15104 is 150 years old,
how can this be compared to 616 which has been expanding for Billions of years?

Reality 15104 is a possible Future of Reality 616.

Reality 15104's Future, NOT 616's ...
is what Jean amputated and Repaired in th WHR atomically.

Jean never did anything to Reality 15104 which manifested in her hands.

(read X-Men #154)

At the ned of the issue (#154) Jean goes back in time,
changes Scotts mind about Emma & the X-Men,
this then Alters the possible Future of 616.

So essentially it was Scott's decision that created and Altered 15104, not Jean.

Jean ONLY manipualted Scott's decision,
but the power to alter that Reality laid in Scott's mind.
.........................................................................................


BTW.

Uatu did the same thing with Reality 311 (the year 1602 of the 616 Universe)

Uatu held it in his hands, and then placed that entire Universe within himself.

That entire Universe of course was a Timeline just like Jean's,
and a "Tiny" one at that, because it was a young Reality just like Jean's 15104.

Still a greater feat like I said.

Forget about timelines and universal aspects. I'm going off of what has happened on panel in combat situations and Phoenix has owned Galan.

Creshosk
Originally posted by spidey-dude
laughing Isn't ABC logic grand? smile

I mean its an obvious ad hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, but still it allows Captain America And even Spider-Man to be greater than Galactus.

Since Spidey beat Hulk as well.

vlaaad12345
Originally posted by Sundipped
Still a greater feat like I said.

Forget about timelines and universal aspects. I'm going off of what has happened on panel in combat situations and Phoenix has owned Galan.
A weakened galactus,she didnt even defeat a normal galactus,let alone a fed one or full power one.

Creshosk
Originally posted by Mr Master
Phoenix never held an entire Universe in her hands and made amputations to it.So do you have any on panel verification that a future timeline is not a universe?

None of your speculation, but ourt right stating that "A future timeline is not a universe"

Originally posted by Mr Master
With PREP (Seven pages to be exact) You mean like the one sided prep galactus had when he bottled phoenix?

Oh... double standard... Talking to people sure is the same thing as developing the specific technology required to do something. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Mr Master
Jean amputated the Alternate Future of Reality 15104.

Reality 15104 is 150 years old,
how can this be compared to 616 which has been expanding for Billions of years? Because you've got nothing onpanel that directly states that a future timeline is not a universe.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Reality 15104 is a possible Future of Reality 616.

Reality 15104's Future, NOT 616's ...
is what Jean amputated and Repaired in the WHR atomically. Right she severed a possible future of 616. Quit downplauying it. smile

Originally posted by Mr Master
Jean never did anything to Reality 15104 which manifested in her hands. According to onpanel evidence and the bio you keep posting she sure did. smile

Originally posted by Mr Master
(read X-Men #154)

At the end of the issue (#154) Jean goes back in time,
changes Scott's mind about Emma & the X-Men,
this then Alters the possible Future of 616.Yup. She prevented 616 from becoming 15104.

Originally posted by Mr Master
So essentially it was Scott's decision that created and Altered 15104, not Jean. Yes because jean has nothing to do with it. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Who was it that altered history to make sure that scott made that different decision? Cause scott can reach into the past and make him change his own mind.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Jean ONLY manipulated Scott's decision,
but the power to alter that Reality laid in Scott's mind. No it didn't. It was jean who took him back to the fork and made him go down the other path. WAY to downplay the feat.

Originally posted by Mr Master

.........................................................................................


BTW.

Uatu did the same thing with Reality 311 (the year 1602 of the 616 Universe)

Uatu held it in his hands, and then placed that entire Universe within himself.

That entire Universe of course was a Timeline just like Jean's,
and a "Tiny" one at that, because it was a young Reality just like Jean's 15104. And?

"Uatu did something as impressive, therefore your other character is WEAK!"

roll eyes (sarcastic) Desperate much?

Creshosk
Originally posted by vlaaad12345
A weakened galactus,she didnt even defeat a normal galactus,let alone a fed one or full power one. And with such ease that a normal galactus probably wouldn't fare much better...

Yes, 10 is greater than 5 but its still not equal to 11, 25, 50 or 75.

Sundipped
Originally posted by Kutulu
Galactus was killing off the Phoenix force in one storyline, but the stars began to grow dim and it would have caused damage to the universe, so he stopped. In that storyline though he was on the verge of killing it.

Tyrant was killing off Galactus in 1 storyline but Morg hit him with the UN so he couldn't. In that storyline Galactus had just fed before confronting Tyrant.

The Phoenix is capable of absorbing way more energy than Tyrant did.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Creshosk
Which in turn belonged to 616.

Can't deny that Mr. Master.

I don't deny that Timeline 15104 (future 150 years) is a possible future of 616.
(Jean held Timeline 15104 in her hands)

Just like I don't deny that Timeline 311 (the year 1602) is a definite Past of 616.
(Uatu held Timeline 311 in his hands too)

Originally posted by Creshosk


A baby universe is still a universe.
A kitten is still a cat.
A foal is still a deer
A calf is still a cow.

A toddler is still a human.

No doubt.

But it's far easier to carry a,
foul instead of a deer
a calf instead of a cow
a toddler instead of an adult.

So by your own logic,
we see the difference between holding a "baby" "tiny" Universe,
in comparison with holding an Parent, adult Universe.

Originally posted by Creshosk
or your interpritation of what Marvel comics says rather.

Marvel's interpretation evidently:


The Phoenix Force tells Rachel,
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/4920/f2bj2.th.jpg

"ALL I have become, You ARE Too,

My Essence is Bonded to Your Spirit, the Burden of Power, will be YOURS"
..................................................................................

The Phoenix Force itself told Rachel,

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/6269/f5uk4.th.jpg
" You are the ONE TRUE PHOENIX"

Originally posted by Creshosk
Its true.

Cause you say so?

Where is it stated on panel that Rachel is the weakest avatar?

Originally posted by Creshosk
out of the numbers
1, 2, 3, 4, 5

2 is the number most like 1 however 1 is still not 2.

Though technically you could say that Emma or Storm were weaker phoenixes in Endsong and that What if... Rachel is still no Jean.

According to Marvel Rachel was everything Jean was.

Can't deny that Cresh.

Originally posted by Creshosk
And I'm not impressed by galactus being punked out so easily.

Galactus really doesn't seem to be all that.

While Starved?

I agree.

Originally posted by Creshosk
What was hard to understand about that.

Would it increase his durability and the power of his attacks or would it simply increase the amount of energy available to him?

If it doesn't provide any extra durability against attacks or increase his attacking power then a better fed galactus would sitll fair about the same. His blasts having no effect and him feeling as much pain as he did when he was starving.

Galactus becomes more powerful when he feeds.

Originally posted by Creshosk
And I'm not impressed by Galactus in general.

Fine.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Exactly. Galactus, big whoop. Earth based heroes can beat him..

I know, that Starving Galactus is such a difference to his normal self.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Not really you haven't.

Actually I did. You not accepting it is a whole different story.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Typical Phoenix speach doesn't cut it when its obviously not true. Otherwise there'd be no disticntion bewteen the phonexii.

As you wish.

Originally posted by Creshosk
To bad you've got no evidence of that.

It's my opinion based on many other facts.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Nor of this. Funny how you demand "On panel evidence until you change your mind about things you have no on panel verification for.

Galactus insatiable was going to absorb the Multiverse, and maybe more,
during the Black Celestial arc,

This was certified in a GOTG. (I have the proof as always if you wish)

Once galactus is verified to be capable of taking out the Multiverse,
that sets him many, many levels above any Phoenix,
who's never affected even Two realities at once.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Trying to justify your ABC logic?

Don't get mad at me
because Cube Beings can grant other beings the Full power of the Phoenix Force.

Xplosive
Originally posted by Mr Master
thumb up I agree.

Of course, just to be against Phoenix. In general scenario, Galactus lost twice.
Phoenix is no Tyrant.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Phoenix is so overrated by some

Ha. Funny. Now you give even Celestial above Full Phoenix Force.

Wow, you said ''That's it, that's all Phoenix has done under her own power that's worth mentioning'', WTF has Celestial done? Nothing even comparable to Phoenix.

Phoenix destroyed Eternity.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Reality 15104 was a possible future timeline of 616.

That is Mr Master. He won't tell that. He despise Phoenix and is probably underrating it the most of all.

Originally posted by vlaaad12345
A normal galactus wipes 3+ solar systems with his ass he would do much more then a little better.

3 solar systems. smile. He can do much more than just that. Anyway, the point is that he even wasn't a challenge to the Rachel.
And from the talk between the two, it was like Galactus knew he was fighting a more powerful being, who has a greater power source.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'll wait for you to post the proof that states,


Normal Galactus beats every Phoenix except for WPOTC.

Galactus insatiable curbstomps WPOTC.

I am waiting proof that states where Galactus insatiable curbstomps Phoenix. Because he surely hasn't shown anything close to that level, not even close.

I mean, you are talking about waiting panel evidence, while you have no panel verification for what are you saying.

Originally posted by vlaaad12345
So we are using the strongest versions now?then I guess we use the true full powered galactus and he stomps a mudhole in phoenix.

Am, based on what? What has FP Galactus done?
No Galactus is close to the Phoenix level.

Originally posted by Kutulu
Galactus was killing off the Phoenix force in one storyline, but the stars began to grow dim and it would have caused damage to the universe, so he stopped. In that storyline though he was on the verge of killing it.

He wasn't match for the Phoenix. Phoenix allowed him to do that.
Would he really be able to completely kill the Phoenix Force, since no one even in exsitence did that?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Right she severed a possible future of 616. Quit downplauying it. smile

No it didn't. It was jean who took him back to the fork and made him go down the other path. WAY to downplay the feat.

He is pretty much always doing that when Pheonix emerges in the thread.

Creshosk
Originally posted by Mr Master
I don't deny that Timeline 15104 (future 150 years) is a possible future of 616.
(Jean held Timeline 15104 in her hands)

Just like I don't deny that Timeline 311 (the year 1602) is a definite Past of 616.
(Uatu held Timeline 311 in his hands too) Actually Timeline 311 was an alternate timeline to a point in 616's past. not actually a "definte past" as there is only one past. even if there are "raods not taken" from divergence points in that past.



Originally posted by Mr Master
No doubt.

But it's far easier to carry a,
foul instead of a deer Except if its an ostritch.

Originally posted by Mr Master
a calf instead of a cow A calf is a cow.

Originally posted by Mr Master
a toddler instead of an adult.

So by your own logic,
we see the difference between holding a "baby" "tiny" Universe,
in comparison with holding an Parent, adult Universe. And you have any On-panel proof of the tiny universe being harder to hold than a "full one"?

Or is this just your interpritation with nothing concrete to back it?



Originally posted by Mr Master
Marvel's interpretation evidently:/quote] Nope. YOUR interpritation.

Originally posted by Mr Master

The Phoenix Force tells Rachel,
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/4920/f2bj2.th.jpg

"ALL I have become, You ARE Too,

My Essence is Bonded to Your Spirit, the Burden of Power, will be YOURS"That's just the standard phoenix speech. In endsong it had appearently forgotten that it was one with Jean and Jean had to tell it the same thing.

So again, if Jean is one with the phoenix force, and Rachel is one with the phoenix force, that'd mean that Rachel is one with Jean wouldn't it?

Since they're obviously not it is once again, Hyperbolic speech.

Originally posted by Mr Master

..................................................................................

The Phoenix Force itself told Rachel,

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/6269/f5uk4.th.jpg
" You are the ONE TRUE PHOENIX"
And yet the phoenix force forgot that it was one with Jean... again, just fancy speech nothing more.


Originally posted by Mr Master
Cause you say so? Cause logic says so. It's illogical to assume that everything a character says in comics is the ireffutable truth. In so accepting everything as what is litereally stated you're like a fundimentilist of a religon. Metaphores and parables exist.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Where is it stated on panel that Rachel is the weakest avatar? Where's it stated that she's equal to the other phonexii? Where are her feats that put her on par? All you have is the hyperbolic speech that you accept without interpritation and ignore the fact that the Phoenix force is NOT omniscient and tells it to everyone. But how can it even be true if Jean could rip the force out of another person and had to tell it something it didn't know?

Think man, don't just swallow the hyperbole you're given.
Originally posted by Mr Master
According to Marvel Rachel was everything Jean was.

Can't deny that Cresh.Sure I can because I'm not gullible.

Got any onpanel proof that says that Rachel is Jean?

Originally posted by Mr Master
While Starved?

I agree.At all.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Galactus becomes more powerful when he feeds. And what does that mean exactly? More stamina? More powers? Stronger powers than before?

Face it Starving galactus was punked easily. It might not be as easy but you really think that rachel couldn't beat a normal one?

It might take 5 or even 10 hits... but the fight was no where NEAR close when he was starved that its assinine to assume that he'd win at normal levels when we have no proof of what normal levels increase factor is.

We have nothing quantifiable.


Originally posted by Mr Master
I know, that Starving Galactus is such a difference to his normal self. So different that he'll go from being one shotted to winning?

Yeah, got any actual proof of that? Cause its a sweeping generalization to assume so.


Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually I did. You not accepting it is a whole different story.No, you failing to provide concrete proof is undeniable. You're relying on hyperbolic speech which is contradicted by other on panel evidence of character.

Logically speaking its just an initiation speech. As clearly they do not become hiveminded or anything of the like.

Heck even your precious beyonder evidence says contradiction.

How could he give her the full power of the phoenix force (which he then failed to stop) when she was supposedly already "Everything that I am you are"?

Does that make sense? if she was 100% then how could he make her 100%?

Originally posted by Mr Master
As you wish.

Originally posted by Mr Master
It's my opinion based on many other facts. At least you admit its your opinion. Now stop touting your opinion off like it was a fact as well.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Galactus insatiable was going to absorb the Multiverse, and maybe more,
during the Black Celestial arc,Supposedly.

But its really kinda funny. Insatiable is a word that would mean greater than starving. So logically when he was going to absorb the multiverse a regular human should have been able to drive him away.

The amount of energy he can absorb is tied to his state, the hungrier the more he can absorb but the easier it is to beat him.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This was certified in a GOTG. (I have the proof as always if you wish)

Originally posted by Mr Master
Once galactus is verified to be capable of taking out the Multiverse, Absorbing capacity doesn't aqquint to current power level.

Originally posted by Mr Master
that sets him many, many levels above any Phoenix,
who's never affected even Two realities at once. Like 616 and 15104 at the same time? sly

Originally posted by Mr Master
Don't get mad at me
because Cube Beings can grant other beings the Full power of the Phoenix Force. And then fail to stop it.

Again how would he be able to grant that which she already was supposedly?

So which is it? Was she not 100% and he made her that way, or was she already that way normally?

Logic is not on your side my friend, you're faced with contradiction.

I'd tell you not to get mad that your arguments are illogical and contradictory, but we both know that you don't get mad.

Now again, thanks to ABC logic Spiderman>>>Galactus smile

Creshosk
Originally posted by Xplosive
He is pretty much always doing that when Pheonix emerges in the thread. I noticed. Like when he uses cross company crossovers as evidence.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Creshosk
So do you have any on panel verification that a future timeline is not a universe?

None of your speculation, but ourt right stating that "A future timeline is not a universe"

I never said Timelines are not universes.

I said Timelines are "BABY" TINY" universes because of their infancy.

Like All Realities in Marvel,
they begin tiny, and grow with time.

Originally posted by Creshosk
You mean like the one sided prep galactus had when he bottled phoenix?

I never used that feat, (Galactus erasing the PF from existence) as reasons.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Because you've got nothing onpanel that directly states that a future timeline is not a universe.

That's because I never said that.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Right she severed a possible future of 616.

Quit downplauying it.

Wrong, she severed an Alternate Future of Reality 15104:

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/5749/n2uo1.th.jpg
"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future ... OF ... Reality - 15104"

Originally posted by Creshosk
According to onpanel evidence and the bio you keep posting she sure did.

Really?

Here all the relevant scans from beginning to end.


Jean Amputates the Future of Reality 15104 and Repairs it in the WHR:

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/5770/nxm15420uj8.th.jpg
"Hospital White Hot" ... "Grow better Future"
....................................................................................................

Jean STILL hasn't done anything to Reality 15104.


After Repairing the Future of Reality 15104, PF says,

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4728/fixwx1.th.jpg
"Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once ian't as easy as it sounds,
not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown"
....................................................................................................

Now Reality 15104 appears in Jean's hands,
Jean doesn't know what it is, or what to do with it:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7906/nxm15421ei4.th.jpg
....................................................................................................

Jean still hasn't done a thing to Reality 15104.

In the last Panel, Jean finally does something:

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/6217/nxm15422md1.th.jpg

"Live Scott"
....................................................................................................


And what does Jean do?

What did she do when she said, "Live Scott?"

Jean went into the Past, changed Scott's mind about his life, Emma & the X-Men,
and then Scott's decision Alters Reality 15104.


According to Grant Morrison: (the Writer of this arc)

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1293/0zc0.th.jpg
(excerpt from the Questionnaires addressed to the Writers, last page New X-Men #155)
....................................................................................................


On Panel verification:

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/1856/nxm15423zs3.th.jpg

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/3156/nxm15424mt8.th.jpg


I guess ol' Morrison wasn't lying about the story he created.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Yup. She prevented 616 from becoming 15104.

There's no assurance that 616 would ever become 15104.

For there's a slew of Realities taking place Far beyond 150 years as we speak,
all these Realities are "Possible Future Timelines"

We'll never know until the time comes,
this is why these Timelines are enclosed in their own Reality apart from the 616 Universe.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Yes because jean has nothing to do with it.

I never said that.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Who was it that altered history to make sure that scott made that different decision?

Who forced Scott's decision to change you mean?

Jean did.

Scott was the one that Altered history though.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Cause scott can reach into the past and make him change his own mind.

Nah, but Cable and Xavier together can.

Or any other time traveller and mind rapists.

Originally posted by Creshosk
No it didn't. It was jean who took him back to the fork and made him go down the other path. WAY to downplay the feat.

Jean forced Scott's decision to change, that's it.

Scott's decision was the power that Altered 15104,

On Panel, in the Bio and according to Grant Morrison himself.

Originally posted by Creshosk
And?

"Uatu did something as impressive, therefore your other character is WEAK!"

I never said Phoenix was weak, but overrated.

The Uatu example just shows that that particular feat (holding a Timeline) is not all that.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Desperate much?

You threw a few of these,
if you continue,
I'll just cease from this could be cool debate.

Creshosk
Originally posted by Mr Master
I never said Timelines are not universes.

I said Timelines are "BABY" TINY" universes because of their infancy.

Like All Realities in Marvel,
they begin tiny, and grow with time. That doesn't look like what I asked for.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I never used that feat, (Galactus erasing the PF from existence) as reasons.Good, don't.


Originally posted by Mr Master

That's because I never said that.
But that's the card you're playing. If you don't want to back it up, don't play the card.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Wrong, she severed an Alternate Future of Reality 15104:

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/5749/n2uo1.th.jpg
"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future ... OF ... Reality - 15104"
Again, interpritation. smile Not fact but your opinion based off of what's stated.
And again with the fundimentalism.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Really?
a
Here all the relevant scans from beginning to end.


Jean Amputates the Future of Reality 15104 and Repairs it in the WHR:

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/5770/nxm15420uj8.th.jpg
"Hospital White Hot" ... "Grow better Future"
....................................................................................................

Jean STILL hasn't done anything to Reality 15104.


After Repairing the Future of Reality 15104, PF says, Hooray for instacontradictions!

Originally posted by Mr Master
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4728/fixwx1.th.jpg
"Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once ian't as easy as it sounds,
not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown"
....................................................................................................

Now Reality 15104 appears in Jean's hands,
Jean doesn't know what it is, or what to do with it:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7906/nxm15421ei4.th.jpg
....................................................................................................

Jean still hasn't done a thing to Reality 15104.Oh no? And now you contradicted yourself again.

Flip, flop, flip, flop.

Originally posted by Mr Master
In the last Panel, Jean finally does something:

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/6217/nxm15422md1.th.jpg

"Live Scott"
....................................................................................................


And what does Jean do?

What did she do when she said, "Live Scott?"

Jean went into the Past, changed Scott's mind about his life, Emma & the X-Men,
and then Scott's decision Alters Reality 15104.


According to Grant Morrison: (the Writer of this arc)

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1293/0zc0.th.jpg
(excerpt from the Questionnaires addressed to the Writers, last page New X-Men #155)
....................................................................................................


On Panel verification:

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/1856/nxm15423zs3.th.jpg

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/3156/nxm15424mt8.th.jpg


I guess ol' Morrison wasn't lying about the story he created.quote] No that'd be your interpritations of events again.

But thanks for proving me right.

Originally posted by Mr Master
There's no assurance that 616 would ever become 15104. Actually that's exactly the way that "Alternate possible futures" works and "divergent timelines."

If an even happened differently it would become the alternate timeline.

In this case if Scott had left. But who kept him from leaving? Who prevented it from becoming that reality?

This is why I say you have a poor grasp of temporal mechanics.

Originally posted by Mr Master
For there's a slew of Realities taking place Far beyond 150 years as we speak,
all these Realities are "Possible Future Timelines"/roll eyes (sarcastic) Got any proof that these "connected to 616" realities are "enclosed apart from 616"?

Do you like contradicting yourself? Cause you do it alot.
Originally posted by Mr Master
I never said that. You sure as hell implied it by placing all the credit on scott's shoulders making him sound like a reality/time manipulator.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Who forced Scott's decision to change you mean?

Jean did.

Scott was the one that Altered history though. See? It sure wasn't Jean who went into the past and made the change, no that was scott who went into the past and forced the change.

It's like saying that a timetraveler goes back and time and kill hitler thus altering history and then saying it was hitler who altered history.

It wouldn't have been hitler who altered history but the person who went back in time and altered history by assassinating Hitler.

Jean forced the change. Not scott.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Nah, Contradicting yourself again. Very nice.

Originally posted by Mr Master
but Cable and Xavier together can.

Or any other time traveller and mind rapists. And Jean happens to be both, without even going INTO that reality. but simply holding the seperated part in her hands.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Jean forced Scott's decision to change, that's it.

Scott's decision was the power that Altered 15104, Just like hitler was the one who altered history.

You have a poor grasp of temporal mechanics.

Originally posted by Mr Master
On Panel, in the Bio and according to Grant Morrison himself. No, you're poor interpritation of the events. COnventntly ignoring where it states that Jean did anything.



Originally posted by Mr Master
I never said Phoenix was weak, but overrated.Riiight.... actually I'd say she's underrated by you. Sorry, but its true.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The Uatu example just shows that that particular feat (holding a Timeline) is not all that. YEah because Uatu is just some shmuck from the street.



Originally posted by Mr Master
You threw a few of these,
if you continue,
I'll just cease from this could be cool debate. Threaten all you want, it doesn't change things.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Creshosk
Actually Timeline 311 was an alternate timeline to a point in 616's past. not actually a "definte past" as there is only one past. even if there are "raods not taken" from divergence points in that past.

According to the issue it was the year 1602 of the 616 Universe.

A Reality apart from 616 representing that Timeline,
like all Past and Future Timelines.

Originally posted by Creshosk
A calf is a cow.

I won't put up with this much.

Originally posted by Creshosk
And you have any On-panel proof of the tiny universe being harder to hold than a "full one"?

Or is this just your interpritation with nothing concrete to back it?

Logic, are you the only one that's allowed to use it?

Cause most of what I'm reading from you is based on your logic.

Originally posted by Creshosk
That's just the standard phoenix speech. In endsong it had appearently forgotten that it was one with Jean and Jean had to tell it the same thing.

As you wish.

But to me you're simply refusing to accept the on panel evidence.

Originally posted by Creshosk
So again, if Jean is one with the phoenix force, and Rachel is one with the phoenix force, that'd mean that Rachel is one with Jean wouldn't it?

Jean didn't have the Force when Rachel did, and vice-versa.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Since they're obviously not it is once again, Hyperbolic speech.

Not hyperbole since they had the Force at separate times.

Originally posted by Creshosk
And yet the phoenix force forgot that it was one with Jean... again, just fancy speech nothing more.

They had the Force at separate times.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Cause logic says so.

There goes that logic.

Originally posted by Creshosk
It's illogical to assume that everything a character says in comics is the ireffutable truth. In so accepting everything as what is litereally stated you're like a fundimentilist of a religon. Metaphores and parables exist.

As you wish.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Where's it stated that she's equal to the other phonexii?

I already posted the scans,

you dismissed it as hyperbole.

Originally posted by Creshosk


All you have

is the hyperbolic speech that you accept without interpritation and ignore the fact that the Phoenix force is NOT omniscient and tells it to everyone. But how can it even be true if Jean could rip the force out of another person and had to tell it something it didn't know?

As opposed to all you have?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Think man, don't just swallow the hyperbole you're given.
Sure I can because I'm not gullible.

laughing out loud

Originally posted by Creshosk
Got any onpanel proof that says that Rachel is Jean?

I never said Rachel is Jean.

I said Rachel was one with the Force:


On Panel proof:


The Phoenix Force tells Rachel,

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/4920/f2bj2.th.jpg
"ALL I have become, You ARE Too"
.................................................................................................

The Phoenix Force tells Rachel,

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/6269/f5uk4.th.jpg
"You are the ONE TRUE Phoenix"

Originally posted by Creshosk
And what does that mean exactly? More stamina? More powers? Stronger powers than before?

Yep.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Face it Starving galactus was punked easily. It might not be as easy but you really think that rachel couldn't beat a normal one?

It might take 5 or even 10 hits... but the fight was no where NEAR close when he was starved that its assinine to assume that he'd win at normal levels when we have no proof of what normal levels increase factor is.

We have nothing quantifiable.

So different that he'll go from being one shotted to winning?

As you wish.

Originally posted by Creshosk
No, you failing to provide concrete proof is undeniable. You're relying on hyperbolic speech which is contradicted by other on panel evidence of character.

As you wish.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Logically speaking its just an initiation speech.
As clearly they do not become hiveminded or anything of the like.

Logic again to dispute On Panel proof.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Heck even your precious beyonder evidence says contradiction.

"Precious?" dontgetit

Originally posted by Creshosk
How could he give her the full power of the phoenix force (which he then failed to stop) when she was supposedly already "Everything that I am you are"?

Does that make sense? if she was 100% then how could he make her 100%?

Rachel became one with the Full Force in the Excalibur arc,

Years after the Beyonder gave Rachel the Full power of the Phoenix Force.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Supposedly.

But its really kinda funny. Insatiable is a word that would mean greater than starving. So logically when he was going to absorb the multiverse a regular human should have been able to drive him away.

The amount of energy he can absorb is tied to his state, the hungrier the more he can absorb but the easier it is to beat him.

Actually "insatiable" means,

(impossible to satisfy)

In other words, no matter how much he feeds, he continues to feed.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Absorbing capacity doesn't aqquint to current power level.

If he can absorb the Multiverse,

he can absorb Phoenix without notice.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Like 616 and 15104 at the same time?

Never happened.

Originally posted by Creshosk
And then fail to stop it.

What?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Again how would he be able to grant that which she already was supposedly?

So which is it? Was she not 100% and he made her that way, or was she already that way normally?

Rachel became one with the Full Force in the Excalibur arc,

Years after the Beyonder gave Rachel the Full power of the Phoenix Force.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Logic is not on your side my friend, you're faced with contradiction.

You're only contradicting yourself by mixing up historical facts.

Logic should be, read all there is to read,
then tell another they're logic is faulty based on all you've read.

Originally posted by Creshosk
I'd tell you not to get mad that your arguments are illogical and contradictory,
but we both know that you don't get mad.

Why should I be mad at the circles your putting yourself in.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Now again, thanks to ABC logic Spiderman>>>Galactus

I said I'd cease from the debate if I saw more unnecessary snideness.

Peace and love yall.

spidey-dude
Originally posted by Creshosk
Isn't ABC logic grand? smile

I mean its an obvious ad hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, but still it allows Captain America And even Spider-Man to be greater than Galactus.

Since Spidey beat Hulk as well. need to be more specific there in what way you mean cap and spidey is greater than galactus

Utrigita
Originally posted by Creshosk
Oh ABC logic... Let me try that.

Captain America beat hulk
Cap>Hulk
Hulk beat Thor
Hulk>Thor
Thor Beat Ego
Thor>Ego
Galactus stalemated Ego
Ego=Galactus
Galactus is more powerful that surfer
Galactus>Surfer
Firelord beat surfer
Surfer<Firelord
Spiderman beat Firelord
Firelord<Spiderman
So we get

Cap>Hulk>Thor>Ego=Galactus>Surfer<Firelord<Spiderman

ISn't ABC logic great? smile

Cap>>>Galactus
big grin

That is redicolus ABC logic and you know it Creshock.

Also master's Logic isn't entirely of.

We know that the Celestials was created by Eternity, and that the Celestials are beneath him, we also know that the Goblin Force a entity that defeated and devoured the Phoenix Force was defeated by the 5 fth Celestial Host. We also know by the Cubes own account that the Celestials are above them and that Master has just showed that Post Beyonder restored the Phoenix force in Jean back to full capacity so...

Creshosk
Originally posted by spidey-dude
need to be more specific there in what way you mean cap and spidey is greater than galactus it was there in the first post of mine you quoted.

According to ABC logic they are.

Spiderman beat the Hulk
Hulk Beat Thor
Thor beat Ego
Ego stalemated Galactus

Since Spider-Man beat the hulk, and hulk beat Thor, Spider man could beat Thor.
Since Spiderman can beat Thor and Thor Beat Ego, Spiderman can beat Ego.
Since Ego salemated Galactus that means they are on par. But since Spiderman can beat Ego that means Spider-man can beat Galactus.

All ABC logic right there.

Spidey>Hulk>Thor>Ego>Galactus.

In ABC logic context is discarded so why and how don't matter. smile

Cube beaings can give a person the power of the phoenix, I can give a town all the water in a dam. So by that same token, I'm greater than all the water in a dam. Because I would then beable to stop it, much like beyonder could stop Rachel from using the phoenix force after he unlocked the force with in her.

smile

All very Logical. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Oh and spidey dude, don't miss the sarcasm in my words. I'm mocking Mr. Master's arguments.

Creshosk
Originally posted by Utrigita
That is redicolus ABC logic and you know it Creshock.

Also master's Logic isn't entirely of.

We know that the Celestials was created by Eternity, and that the Celestials are beneath him, we also know that the Goblin Force a entity that defeated and devoured the Phoenix Force was defeated by the 5 fth Celestial Host. We also know by the Cubes own account that the Celestials are above them and that Master has just showed that Post Beyonder restored the Phoenix force in Jean back to full capacity so... Way to go, using the ABC logic.

Though you're going to have to open your eyes and recognize that ABC logic is ABC logic no matter what you call it. smile

And No, it wasn't Jean, that was rachel. oh wait, it doesn't matter cause they're the same character. doped

spidey-dude
Originally posted by Creshosk
it was there in the first post of mine you quoted.

According to ABC logic they are.

Spiderman beat the Hulk
Hulk Beat Thor
Thor beat Ego
Ego stalemated Galactus

Since Spider-Man beat the hulk, and hulk beat Thor, Spider man could beat Thor.
Since Spiderman can beat Thor and Thor Beat Ego, Spiderman can beat Ego.
Since Ego salemated Galactus that means they are on par. But since Spiderman can beat Ego that means Spider-man can beat Galactus.

All ABC logic right there.

Spidey>Hulk>Thor>Ego>Galactus.

In ABC logic context is discarded so why and how don't matter. smile

Cube beaings can give a person the power of the phoenix, I can give a town all the water in a dam. So by that same token, I'm greater than all the water in a dam. Because I would then beable to stop it, much like beyonder could stop Rachel from using the phoenix force after he unlocked the force with in her.

smile

All very Logical. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Oh and spidey dude, don't miss the sarcasm in my words. I'm mocking Mr. Master's arguments. still doesnt prove cap is ahead of galactus just cuase hes beaten some other guys and how the hell is spidey gonna beat ego ? he has to go out in space 1st of all for that. i only have one ego book and i say gladiator got his ass kicked there big time from him. if glads cant handle ego i dont know how you think spidey would be able to.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Creshosk
Way to go, using the ABC logic.

Though you're going to have to open your eyes and recognize that ABC logic is ABC logic no matter what you call it. smile

And No, it wasn't Jean, that was rachel. oh wait, it doesn't matter cause they're the same character. doped

it isn't ABC logic but commen logic to be infact logic that you fail to accept because you know you cannot argue against it doped

also ABC logic is to disregard all known facts about the three beings in question which wasn't exactly done in this case.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Utrigita
That is redicolus ABC logic and you know it Creshock.

Also master's Logic isn't entirely of.

We know that the Celestials was created by Eternity, and that the Celestials are beneath him, we also know that the Goblin Force a entity that defeated and devoured the Phoenix Force was defeated by the 5 fth Celestial Host. We also know by the Cubes own account that the Celestials are above them and that Master has just showed that Post Beyonder restored the Phoenix force in Jean back to full capacity so...

Haven't you heard?


On Panel artistic illustrations,
Official Marvel Bio descriptions,
and statements made by the Writer himself,
are all hyperbolic, mis-interpretations that contradict themselves.

All that matters is proofless logic here.

Originally posted by Creshosk
I'm mocking Mr. Master's arguments.

Whatever makes you bust.

Creshosk
Originally posted by spidey-dude
still doesnt prove cap is ahead of galactus just cuase hes beaten some other guys and how the hell is spidey gonna beat ego ? he has to go out in space 1st of all for that. i only have one ego book and i say gladiator got his ass kicked there big time from him. if glads cant handle ego i dont know how you think spidey would be able to. Because of ABC Logic. of course. big grin

Originally posted by Utrigita
it isn't ABC logic but commen logic to be infact logic that you fail to accept because you know you cannot argue against it doped Just like you can't argue against it cause you know its ABC logic despite calling it "common logic".

Can't accept it for what it is. smile

Originally posted by Utrigita
also ABC logic is to disregard all known facts about the three beings in question which wasn't exactly done in this case. It's exactly what was done in this case. You fail to accept it because you know you cannot argue against it.

Boy its fun to be illogical. smile

Originally posted by Mr Master
Haven't you heard?


On Panel artistic illustrations,
Official Marvel Bio descriptions,
and statements made by the Writer himself,
are all hyperbolic, mis-interpretations that contradict themselves.

All that matters is proofless logic here. Obviously because that's what you're doing. smile



Originally posted by Mr Master
Whatever makes you bust. I like mocking people's bad logic and you like contadicting yourself. I think we make a fine pair.

You contradict yourself, and I'll mock those contradictions. We can be a comedy duo like Abbot and costello. big grin

unknowable
Originally posted by Mr Master
I never said Timelines are not universes.

I said Timelines are "BABY" TINY" universes because of their infancy.

Like All Realities in Marvel,
they begin tiny, and grow with time.



I never used that feat, (Galactus erasing the PF from existence) as reasons.



That's because I never said that.



Wrong, she severed an Alternate Future of Reality 15104:

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/5749/n2uo1.th.jpg
"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future ... OF ... Reality - 15104"



Really?

Here all the relevant scans from beginning to end.


Jean Amputates the Future of Reality 15104 and Repairs it in the WHR:

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/5770/nxm15420uj8.th.jpg
"Hospital White Hot" ... "Grow better Future"
....................................................................................................

Jean STILL hasn't done anything to Reality 15104.


After Repairing the Future of Reality 15104, PF says,

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4728/fixwx1.th.jpg
"Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once ian't as easy as it sounds,
not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown"
....................................................................................................

Now Reality 15104 appears in Jean's hands,
Jean doesn't know what it is, or what to do with it:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7906/nxm15421ei4.th.jpg
....................................................................................................

Jean still hasn't done a thing to Reality 15104.

In the last Panel, Jean finally does something:

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/6217/nxm15422md1.th.jpg

"Live Scott"
....................................................................................................


And what does Jean do?

What did she do when she said, "Live Scott?"

Jean went into the Past, changed Scott's mind about his life, Emma & the X-Men,
and then Scott's decision Alters Reality 15104.


According to Grant Morrison: (the Writer of this arc)

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1293/0zc0.th.jpg
(excerpt from the Questionnaires addressed to the Writers, last page New X-Men #155)
....................................................................................................


On Panel verification:

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/1856/nxm15423zs3.th.jpg

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/3156/nxm15424mt8.th.jpg


I guess ol' Morrison wasn't lying about the story he created.



There's no assurance that 616 would ever become 15104.

For there's a slew of Realities taking place Far beyond 150 years as we speak,
all these Realities are "Possible Future Timelines"

We'll never know until the time comes,
this is why these Timelines are enclosed in their own Reality apart from the 616 Universe.



I never said that.



Who forced Scott's decision to change you mean?

Jean did.

Scott was the one that Altered history though.



Nah, but Cable and Xavier together can.

Or any other time traveller and mind rapists.



Jean forced Scott's decision to change, that's it.

Scott's decision was the power that Altered 15104,

On Panel, in the Bio and according to Grant Morrison himself.



I never said Phoenix was weak, but overrated.

The Uatu example just shows that that particular feat (holding a Timeline) is not all that.



You threw a few of these,
if you continue,
I'll just cease from this could be cool debate.

Awesome job Mr M. how I missed the days when GS and MM had their debates, both brought great discussions to the forum without the verbal assaults they gave each other, now we have posters that don't say anything except disagree with sarcasm.

Toodle loo.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Creshosk
Because of ABC Logic. of course. big grin

Just like you can't argue against it cause you know its ABC logic despite calling it "common logic".

Can't accept it for what it is. smile

Actually I'm not sure who is being the most inlogical here you ore me. because you argument is based on ABC logic as well

Jean Phoenix > Rachel Phoenix > Starving Galactus = Normal Powerlevel Galactus.

but hey it's logical inlogical ABC logic.

It's exactly what was done in this case. You fail to accept it because you know you cannot argue against it.

I presented why it cannot be ABC logic you used in the spidey>Galactus ABC logic.

Boy its fun to be illogical. smile

yes it must be... but rather tiresome too

spidey-dude
Originally posted by Creshosk
Because of ABC Logic. of course. big grin

Just like you can't argue against it cause you know its ABC logic despite calling it "common logic".

Can't accept it for what it is. smile

It's exactly what was done in this case. You fail to accept it because you know you cannot argue against it.

Boy its fun to be illogical. smile

Obviously because that's what you're doing. smile



I like mocking people's bad logic and you like contadicting yourself. I think we make a fine pair.

You contradict yourself, and I'll mock those contradictions. We can be a comedy duo like Abbot and costello. big grin again with the abc logic BS

Creshosk
Originally posted by Utrigita
Actually I'm not sure who is being the most inlogical here you ore me. because you argument is based on ABC logic as well

Jean Phoenix > Rachel Phoenix > Starving Galactus = Normal Powerlevel Galactus.

but hey it's logical inlogical ABC logic.Who said that Galactus Starving = Galactus Normal?
smile

I see you still don't comprehend what ABC logic is.



IOriginally posted by Utrigita
presented why it cannot be ABC logic you used in the spidey>Galactus ABC logic.No, you said it isn't and then proceeded to use it again. smile



Originally posted by Utrigita
yes it must be... but rather tiresome too You'd know since you're that way all the time. wink

Creshosk
Originally posted by spidey-dude
again with the abc logic BS Did you pick up on the sarcasm there Spidey?

Of course its BS. That's the point.

Creshosk
Originally posted by unknowable
Awesome job Mr M. how I missed the days when GS and MM had their debates, both brought great discussions to the forum without the verbal assaults they gave each other, now we have posters that don't say anything except disagree with sarcasm.

Toodle loo. durwank

That was a brilliant post that brought much to the discussion! durw00t

Utrigita
Originally posted by Creshosk
Who said that Galactus Starving = Galactus Normal?

I think you did friend.

I see you still don't comprehend what ABC logic is.

Actually I see that it is you how apparently cannot see the difference between Saying that Spidey > Galactus when spidey has no feats to support this while the Celestials have support to say that they > Goblin Force which defeated the Phoenix force and absorbed it energy thats the difference. smile but hey Feats and statements are either Hyperbole ore Illogical right? Unless its support the phoenix stick out tongue

INo, you said it isn't and then proceeded to use it again. smile

No actually you did wink

You'd know since you're that way all the time. wink

Well I learn it from the best... you stick out tongue

Kutulu
Looks like Mr. M. is dominating the debate once again.

Creshosk
Originally posted by Utrigita
I think you did friend. No, I'm pretty sure that I only asked for veruification of exactly what was involved with a state change and just how his being more powerful effects him... I don't think I ever stated that he would stay the same...



Originally posted by Utrigita
Actually I see that it is you how apparently cannot see the difference between Saying that Spidey > Galactus when spidey has no feats to support this while the Celestials have support to say that they > Goblin Force which defeated the Phoenix force and absorbed it energy thats the difference. smile but hey Feats and statements are either Hyperbole ore Illogical right? Unless its support the phoenix stick out tongue Oh, strawman picked up from Mr Master because neither of you comprehend when you contradict yourself because you'll do anything to downplay phoenix to being nothing more than hearlad level... or are you even generous enough to say that she's that high? sly

Naw, I'm saying its the putting her into the equation based off of the cube being and discardeing the context of the feats that makes it ABC logic.

Spider-man only beat hulk due to circumstance of specifics of the situation.



Originally posted by Utrigita
No actually you did wink Oh now I see you've got a selective memeory. IT was clearly you who said that something wasn't, and then used it again right away. You'll note that I haven't used again that which I said wasn't ABC logic.

Oh sorry, I forgot you aren't bright enough to pick up on the obvious.



Originally posted by Utrigita
Well I learn it from the best... you stick out tongue Since I'm mimicking you I got it from you. So no, you didn't get it from me, you're continuing on as you normally do. smile

Creshosk
Originally posted by Kutulu
Looks like Mr. M. is dominating the debate once again. durwank

I forget how stupid the populace tends to be. ermm

Smoki
Originally posted by Kutulu
Looks like Mr. M. is dominating the debate once again.

i agree

Kutulu
Originally posted by Creshosk
durwank

I forget how stupid the populace tends to be. ermm

Stupid is as stupid does. So far I have yet to see you back up any of your side with scans or otherwise. The only thing I have seen you do is play word games and use circular logic. From a neutral perspective Mr. M. has clearly outmaneuvered you here.

Galan007
.

Smoki
Originally posted by Mr Master
Phoenix is so overrated by some,

the only thing every fan has to die by is,

"Phoenix amputated/disconnected that Alternate Future Timeline"

"Phoenix destroyed an Alternate Universe in a 'What if' issue"


That's it, that's all Phoenix has done under her own power that's worth mentioning.



And yet,

POST-Retcon Beyonder gave Rachel the FULL power of the embodiment of the Phoenix Force:

(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook 2004 - Marvel Girl bio)
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/6149/beyonderpfbiojb3.th.jpg

"Beyonder once hinted
that Rachel could potentially become equal in power to the previous Phoenix.

Indeed,
the Beyonder granted Rachel the Full power that the previous Phoenix had possessed"

........................................................................................


This is POST-Retcon Beyonder (Cube Being) getting the credit for this.

Heck, Cube Beings aren't even above Aspects of Eternity or even a single Celestial.


On Panel verification:


Beyonder gives Rachel the power:

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4363/b1ld6.th.jpg


Rachel becomes the Full embodiment of the Phoenix Force:

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2637/b2ko2.th.jpg
........................................................................................


So Eternity >>> Celestials >>> Cube Beings >>> Full Phoenix Force

i never knew cube beings are beyond the phoenix force this is new to me thanks for the update mr masters i like that you always add the scans to back you up

xjustice69x
i think i recal 3 phoenix big G encounters and phoenix had the upper hand in all 3
phoenix for the win
though with prep time i can see galactus beating her

Kutulu
Originally posted by Smoki
i never knew cube beings are beyond the phoenix force this is new to me thanks for the update mr masters i like that you always add the scans to back you up

Yeah people have created universes using just a single cosmic cube.

Creshosk
Originally posted by Kutulu
Stupid is as stupid does. So far I have yet to see you back up any of your side with scans or otherwise. The only thing I have seen you do is play word games and use circular logic. From a neutral perspective Mr. M. has clearly outmaneuvered you here. Oh yeah you're sure neural. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Its not circular logic. Its just plain logic.

Seriously, did you not notice all the contradictions in his arguments?

Rachel is the equivilent of The full force phoenix due to his argument using the hyperbolic speech of a nitwit. Yes, I just called the phoenix force a nitwit. It's not omniscent, in fact thinking doesn't seem to be its strong suit. You can identify with that.

Rachel certainly didn't gain any extra knowledge from the force, that or it didn't know about its own nature. Jean even had to remind it of the speech that it had used on Jean. Or did you not read endsong where Jean had to tell the Force that they were one?

You don't find that funny? That a host was telling the force that they were one as if it didn't know? Which it didn't at that point in time.

Next up after saying that Rachel was all that the force is, he says that the Beyonder gave Rachel the full power of the phoenix. In order for him to have done that that means that she DIDN'T have that. otherwise its like me saying that I'me giving you the power to breath. Oops, you already have that.

So either she already was everything the force was or she wasn't.

You don't see a contradiction there?

Creshosk
Originally posted by Smoki
i never knew cube beings are beyond the phoenix force this is new to me thanks for the update mr masters i like that you always add the scans to back you up I like that his scans don't always support what he's saying and that often times they contradict each other.

Cube beings are beyond the phoenix force because they gave to rachel what she already has? Or did she not have that?

And I can give a town the full amount of water that's in a damn, by blowing up the dam. Does that mean that I can stop the flood that I unleashed?

No. So yeah, just speculation AGAIN.. but go ahead and listen. Be gullible.

vlaaad12345
Originally posted by xjustice69x
i think i recal 3 phoenix big G encounters and phoenix had the upper hand in all 3
phoenix for the win
though with prep time i can see galactus beating her
I recall 2 times,and each time galactus was starving.

xjustice69x
Originally posted by vlaaad12345
I recall 2 times,and each time galactus was starving.
i remember 2 with rachel and one with jean though thay might have been in a what if .
i guess the phoenix is just very lucky to allways stumble across big G when hes hungry.

Kutulu
Originally posted by Creshosk
Oh yeah you're sure neural. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Its not circular logic. Its just plain logic.

Seriously, did you not notice all the contradictions in his arguments?

Rachel is the equivilent of The full force phoenix due to his argument using the hyperbolic speech of a nitwit. Yes, I just called the phoenix force a nitwit. It's not omniscent, in fact thinking doesn't seem to be its strong suit. You can identify with that.

Rachel certainly didn't gain any extra knowledge from the force, that or it didn't know about its own nature. Jean even had to remind it of the speech that it had used on Jean. Or did you not read endsong where Jean had to tell the Force that they were one?

You don't find that funny? That a host was telling the force that they were one as if it didn't know? Which it didn't at that point in time.

Next up after saying that Rachel was all that the force is, he says that the Beyonder gave Rachel the full power of the phoenix. In order for him to have done that that means that she DIDN'T have that. otherwise its like me saying that I'me giving you the power to breath. Oops, you already have that.

So either she already was everything the force was or she wasn't.

You don't see a contradiction there?

It would help your side of the debate if you chose not to throw so many insults about with every statement. It's hard to be impartial when anybody who even remotely questions your statements is responded to with direct insults.

Smoki
Originally posted by Creshosk
Seriously, did you not notice all the contradictions in his arguments?

no

Originally posted by Creshosk
Rachel is the equivilent of The full force phoenix due to his argument using the hyperbolic speech of a nitwit. Yes, I just called the phoenix force a nitwit. It's not omniscent, in fact thinking doesn't seem to be its strong suit. You can identify with that.

Rachel certainly didn't gain any extra knowledge from the force, that or it didn't know about its own nature. Jean even had to remind it of the speech that it had used on Jean. Or did you not read endsong where Jean had to tell the Force that they were one?

You don't find that funny? That a host was telling the force that they were one as if it didn't know? Which it didn't at that point in time.

masters showed us the scan where the pf tells rachel she is one with it
you haven't presented anything that disclaims that

Originally posted by Creshosk
Next up after saying that Rachel was all that the force is, he says that the Beyonder gave Rachel the full power of the phoenix. In order for him to have done that that means that she DIDN'T have that. otherwise its like me saying that I'me giving you the power to breath. Oops, you already have that.

So either she already was everything the force was or she wasn't.

masters said beyonder gave her the full power of the pf before she became one with the pf in excalibur are you paying attention

Originally posted by Creshosk
You don't see a contradiction there?

no but i do see you contradicting yourself due to lack of attention

Smoki
Originally posted by Creshosk
I like that his scans don't always support what he's saying and that often times they contradict each other.

you sound like a person with a personal grudge cause i seen masters in many threads and he usually makes the same claims made by marvel in their scans

Originally posted by Creshosk
Cube beings are beyond the phoenix force because they gave to rachel what she already has? Or did she not have that?

pay attention

Originally posted by Creshosk
And I can give a town the full amount of water that's in a damn, by blowing up the dam. Does that mean that I can stop the flood that I unleashed?

what does this mean aside from nothing with the debate

Originally posted by Creshosk
No. So yeah, just speculation AGAIN.. but go ahead and listen. Be gullible.

so if i listen and agree with you im correct but if i listen and agree with masters im gullible

Smoki
Originally posted by Kutulu
It would help your side of the debate if you chose not to throw so many insults about with every statement. It's hard to be impartial when anybody who even remotely questions your statements is responded to with direct insults.

right on kutulu i was just about to say that

Neo Darkhalen
Why did you Multi-post.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Creshosk
No, I'm pretty sure that I only asked for veruification of exactly what was involved with a state change and just how his being more powerful effects him... I don't think I ever stated that he would stay the same...

Sorry my bad.

Oh, strawman picked up from Mr Master because neither of you comprehend when you contradict yourself because you'll do anything to downplay phoenix to being nothing more than hearlad level... or are you even generous enough to say that she's that high? sly

I'm putting her far above a herald level being she would easily crush the the combined selection of Heralds, and strawman I agree with Master when I have the same openion he does and disagree with him when I think he is wrong thats the way I debate. I don't know how you debate but it looks like disagreeing with Master is the only correct thing to do according to you.

Naw, I'm saying its the putting her into the equation based off of the cube being and discardeing the context of the feats that makes it ABC logic.

Oh like when you did spidey > Galactus. And Post Retcon Beyonder was a incomplete Cosmic Cube I believe that his powers wasn't fully defined I suppose you know all about the Cosmic Cubes.

Spider-man only beat hulk due to circumstance of specifics of the situation.

Which makes you example earlier even more stupid IMO.

Oh now I see you've got a selective memeory. IT was clearly you who said that something wasn't, and then used it again right away. You'll note that I haven't used again that which I said wasn't ABC logic.

Oh sorry, I forgot you aren't bright enough to pick up on the obvious.

I'm fooling around and I was under the impression that you did too obvious I was wrong about you Creshock, and it turned out that you just throwed around insults and degrading On Panel proofs instead of trying to post scans to proof you case, I miss Galactic Storm in this threads at least he could always produce scans for his statements but you got nothing but you own "logic" which apparently >>> everything thumb up

Since I'm mimicking you I got it from you. So no, you didn't get it from me, you're continuing on as you normally do. smile

Please direct me to a thread where I have used ABC logic other then according to you in this thread please, which actually was logic that can be used.

I'm tired of this it isn't a debate just insults and meaningless wordplay.

Utrigita
edit

guy222
Just a thread yall

I posted the scans before of the times Rachel and Big G met

Galactus lost to Rachel

Have a good evenin, my friend

vlaaad12345
Originally posted by guy222
Just a thread yall

I posted the scans before of the times Rachel and Big G met

Galactus lost to Rachel

Have a good evenin, my friend
We know a starving galactus has lost to phoenix.

batdude123
Galactus would rape the ****ing shit out of her until her **** was ripped apart.

Galan007
shock_oh

id369
My, my this is a hot topic. I feel much resent, geared towards the Phoenix.
I always considered Galactus and Phoenix near equal.

id369
Originally posted by Mr Master
Phoenix is so overrated by some,

the only thing every fan has to die by is,

"Phoenix amputated/disconnected that Alternate Future Timeline"

"Phoenix destroyed an Alternate Universe in a 'What if' issue"


That's it, that's all Phoenix has done under her own power that's worth mentioning.


In the Racheal and Necrom fight, an entire solar system was taking punishment for its consequential effect. In essence it was an Avatar (not the Merged Phoenix at the time) vs. Herself. Seeing as how Necrom was siphoning some of her power. In the Dark Phoenix Arc, when DP was consuming the energies from the sun. The Sun went supernova, at an accelerated rate. Wiping planets near by, DP suffered no consequence despite being on ground zero of the dieing star.

It may not be all out 3 Solar Star destruction, like Galactus. But then again, it was not meant to be. But it goes to show that at its high peaks, tanking and destruction at a solar system level is well within reason.

Maybe this is just one of the few reasons why, some fans think highly of the Phoenix?

Cosmic Flame
Why is it that people are perfectly happy accepting Galactus' highest showings as gospel, but not Phoenix?

It's odd to me that people always talk about a hungry or starving Galactus, and using that to justify why he lost. That's his perpetual state. Almost any time we see Galactus, he's hungry. When he most often fights, he's hungry. There's nothing wrong with any avatar defeating Galactus at any time, because he is what he is.

Phoenix for the win.

Shin_Nikkolas
Where was Phoenix when Thanos had the Infinity Gauntlet?

Every other major cosmic was there.

LordKaos
Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Where was Phoenix when Thanos had the Infinity Gauntlet?

Every other major cosmic was there.

Where was every other major cosmic when the M'Kraan crystal was threatening to end all that is?

Creshosk
Originally posted by Smoki
no That was a rehtorical question as the answer was obviously no. But just because you missed them doesn't mean they're not there.

Originally posted by Smoki
masters showed us the scan where the pf tells rachel she is one with it
you haven't presented anything that disclaims that Other than in Endsong where Jean had to tell the Force they were one you mean? Or when Galactus told Rachel about the nature of her power? Yeah lets just overlook the fact that The Force isn't omniscent and doesn't fully understand what it is.

Originally posted by Smoki
masters said beyonder gave her the full power of the pf before she became one with the pf in excalibur are you paying attentionYeah, are you? So which is it? Which enocounter was she given full power of the phoenix? Seems that she was given 100% twice.

Originally posted by Smoki
no but i do see you contradicting yourself due to lack of attention Why don't you go back to the only thing you're capable of since thinking and independant thought seems to be too difficult for you. durpot

Originally posted by Smoki
you sound like a person with a personal grudge cause i seen masters in many threads and he usually makes the same claims made by marvel in their scans No, he posts his interpretations of the things that marvel says in their scans. You'd know that if you were paying attention.


Originally posted by Smoki
pay attentionhatever you say Mr Pot.

Originally posted by Smoki
what does this mean aside from nothing with the debate Its called an analogy. Maybe if you payed attention in school you'd know what an analogy is.

Originally posted by Smoki
so if i listen and agree with you im correct but if i listen and agree with masters im gullible Funny how that works out doesn't it?

Swallow the lies or side with the truth...

Creshosk
Originally posted by Utrigita
Sorry my bad.



I'm putting her far above a herald level being she would easily crush the the combined selection of Heralds, and strawman I agree with Master when I have the same openion he does and disagree with him when I think he is wrong thats the way I debate. I don't know how you debate but it looks like disagreeing with Master is the only correct thing to do according to you. Duh, otherwise I wouldn't be disagreeing with him.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Oh like when you did spidey > Galactus. And Post Retcon Beyonder was a incomplete Cosmic Cube I believe that his powers wasn't fully defined I suppose you know all about the Cosmic Cubes.Like how he was recently pretending to be a Born Mutant immortal?

Originally posted by Utrigita
Which makes you example earlier even more stupid IMO.It's supposed to be stupid. That's the point. It's demonstrating the folly of ABC reasoning.

Originally posted by Utrigita
I'm fooling around and I was under the impression that you did too obvious I was wrong about you Creshock, and it turned out that you just throwed around insults and degrading On Panel proofs instead of trying to post scans to proof you case, I miss Galactic Storm in this threads at least he could always produce scans for his statements but you got nothing but you own "logic" which apparently >>> everything thumb upWhen interpretations of scans are being used as verification of what the scans mean and when its those self same scans that I'm debating. It'd be redundant for me to post the scansback to the person who just posted them. Are you even capable of critical thought?

I mean the scans that would be my proof are the scans he's using as his proof.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Please direct me to a thread where I have used ABC logic other then according to you in this thread please, which actually was logic that can be used. This thread, a couple pages back. I pointed it out to you right when you used it. So pointing it out to you so you can deny it is just a waste of time. Again, Critical thinking. Learn how to do it.

Originally posted by Utrigita
I'm tired of this it isn't a debate just insults and meaningless wordplay. From both sides. Don't act like your shit doesn't stink you're just as guilty of that which you accuse me of. And at least I will admit to my actions. My shit stinks as bad as anyone elses.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Creshosk
From both sides. Don't act like your shit doesn't stink you're just as guilty of that which you accuse me of. And at least I will admit to my actions. My shit stinks as bad as anyone elses.

Hey dude I know it points in both directions and again I don't want to discuss this any further since there is no meaning in doing so.

Mr Master
Originally posted by LordKaos
Where was every other major cosmic when the M'Kraan crystal was threatening to end all that is?

The Mkraan Crystal has been unleashed On Panel already,

it only took out & remade a single Alternate universe.
..................................................................................

Back in X-Men #108, the first time around,
the Mkraan Crystal only threatened ONE universe, on panel.

.................................................................................

Mkraan Crystal is said to be able to wipe out all Realities in the Bio, I agree.

But it has never done so On Panel, ... on panel it's greatest feat is One alternate Reality.

And,

On Panel > Bio

Creshosk
Originally posted by Mr Master
The Mkraan Crystal has been unleashed On Panel already,

it only took out & remade a single Alternate universe.
..................................................................................

Back in X-Men #108, the first time around,
the Mkraan Crystal only threatened ONE universe, on panel.

.................................................................................

Mkraan Crystal is said to be able to wipe out all Realities in the Bio, I agree.

But it has never done so On Panel, ... on panel it's greatest feat is One alternate Reality.

And,

On Panel > Bio sly but only when it suits you right?

Mr Master
Originally posted by Creshosk
but only when it suits you right?

ka-dur

Creshosk
Originally posted by Mr Master
ka-dur Yeah I thought it was obvious too...

unknowable
Originally posted by Mr Master
The Mkraan Crystal has been unleashed On Panel already,

it only took out & remade a single Alternate universe.
..................................................................................

Mkraan Crystal is said to be able to wipe out all Realities in the Bio, I agree.

But it has never done so On Panel, ... on panel it's greatest feat is One alternate Reality.

And,

On Panel > Bio

Can you post the scans Mr M.

Mr Master
Originally posted by unknowable
Can you post the scans Mr M.

Phoenix and all the X-Men try to repair the Lattice of the Mkraan ... but fail,

the Mkraan Crystal is unleashed:

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/6628/adventuresofthexmen1219wq0.th.jpg
.....................................................................................


One Reality (a Single universe) is affected:

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/9479/mk5bg7.th.jpg

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/2615/adventuresofthexmen1223pz1.th.jpg
.....................................................................................


Gladiator stated it threatened "All existence"

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5617/mk3uk3.th.jpg


Gladiator obviously meant "all existence" to them (their universe)
because it evidently did NOT threaten all realities/universes,
as we saw, only ONE reality/universe was affected by the Crystal.
.....................................................................................


Dweller in Darkness clears it up for us:

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/9413/mk2ek7.th.jpg
"Soon the Mkraan Crystal will shatter and That Universe will be forfeit"
.....................................................................................


But anyway

from the very beginning the Watcher stated it to be a Single Reality:

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7387/mk4ep0.th.jpg
"This is one such Universe"


swank

unknowable
Look at that, who knew, thanks Mr M. thumbup1

vven
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that scan from a comic based on the animated series? I see Jubliee Gambit and Rogue there they were not part of the X-men during the Phoenix story line

Also if you're going quote The Watcher in reference to Phoenix then what about "...second only to The Creator"

Mr Master
Originally posted by vven
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that scan from a comic based on the animated series? I see Jubliee Gambit and Rogue there they were not part of the X-men during the Phoenix story line

Nah.

Every scan in that sequence is 100% Canon.

Originally posted by vven

Also if you're going quote The Watcher in reference to Phoenix

Actually the Watcher was referring to the Reality as being "One" universe.

Originally posted by vven
then what about "...second only to The Creator"

laughing out loud Yea, the Watcher of the mid 1970's had a sense of humor didn't he.

But seriously,
the Watcher saying that back, back in the day is so out of wack,
that even the misguided exaggerated respect thread left it out.

starlock
Phoenix beats galactus in a very easy battle

With the past battles against eachother and the numerous threads, you would think the trouble of posting all those scans to put down the phoenix would seem childish and idiotic, but hey it makes Mr Master feel good without G.S here to bother with it, so go for it

Creshosk
Originally posted by Mr Master
Nah.

Every scan in that sequence is 100% Canon.



Actually the Watcher was referring to the Reality as being "One" universe.



laughing out loud Yea, the Watcher of the mid 1970's had a sense of humor didn't he.

But seriously,
the Watcher saying that back, back in the day is so out of wack,
that even the misguided exaggerated respect thread left it out. So watchers speaches are only valid when they suit you?

I'm all for disregarding what the putz says entirely. he's got at least two strikes against him which sheds quite a bit of doubt on his veracity.

Mr Master
Originally posted by starlock
Phoenix beats galactus in a very easy battle

See, this is a statement that contains some significance,
it's your opinion, and it's respected as such, and it's on topic.

Originally posted by starlock
With the past battles against eachother and the numerous threads,

They only battled Twice on panel,

the first time, NO ONE won, Galactus got bored and left.

The second fight, Galactus was STARVING, and Rachel beat him.

That's it.

Originally posted by starlock
you would think the trouble of posting all those scans
to put down the phoenix would seem childish and idiotic,

but hey it makes Mr Master feel good

But this ... umm

why do you have to turn into a trollish D*ck, with this bull shit Starlock?

Can't you just attack my evidence with your own proof,
instead of attacking my name?

That's such b*tch behaviour dogs, on the real.
.................................................................................


Ahh whatever Starlock, do you what you do,

I guess it makes YOU feel good, as you said.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Creshosk
So watchers speaches are only valid when they suit you?

You want the Bios that correspond with and validate that issue too?

It's a click away.

Originally posted by Creshosk
I'm all for disregarding what the putz says entirely. he's got at least two strikes against him which sheds quite a bit of doubt on his veracity.

Do whatever You want with/for yourself Cresh.

xjustice69x
Originally posted by xjustice69x
i remember 2 with rachel and one with jean though thay might have been in a what if .
i guess the phoenix is just very lucky to allways stumble across big G when hes hungry.

Creshosk
Originally posted by Mr Master
You want the Bios that correspond with and validate that issue too?

It's a click away.



Do whatever You want with/for yourself Cresh. Apperently you don't realize that I think that Bios are shit. The bios of characters rarely correspond with the characters as far as powersets depicted on panel go. Doc oc manages to tag spiderman with arms that move at about the speed of baseball pitches.. according to the bios.

Bios also refer to the characters of Wolverine and Captain america as haivng 800 lbs strength when the two of them frequently have been shown to lift and move things that weigh more than 800 lbs.

No, the bios are one writers interpritations. Just like a single comic appearence. I don't listen to Bios as they're frequently wrong, nor do I listen to Uatu who infered that Onslaught would destroy the Earth.

So I try not to base my opinions on shit.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Creshosk
Apperently you don't realize that I think that Bios are shit. The bios of characters rarely correspond with the characters as far as powersets depicted on panel go. Doc oc manages to tag spiderman with arms that move at about the speed of baseball pitches.. according to the bios.

Bios also refer to the characters of Wolverine and Captain america as haivng 800 lbs strength when the two of them frequently have been shown to lift and move things that weigh more than 800 lbs.

No, the bios are one writers interpritations. Just like a single comic appearence. I don't listen to Bios as they're frequently wrong, nor do I listen to Uatu who infered that Onslaught would destroy the Earth.

Uatu wasn't gauging anyone's power though,
he simply stated that it was a Single Universe the Mkraan Crystal destroyed.

Through out the issue it was artistically illustrated to be ONE Universe.

When the Mkraan Crystal was unleashed
it was depicted Artistically on panel affecting One Reality.
.......................................................................................

So it's not just Uatu, the entire issue revolved around ONE universe.

.......................................................................................

If that wasn't concrete enough,

the Official Marvel Handbook bio also corroborates the entire story,
exactly as it happened On Panel.

.......................................................................................

Originally posted by Creshosk
So I try not to base my opinions on shit.

Wonderful.

But if you're not going to accept the On Panel proof,
and you're not going to accept what the Official bio certified concerning said proof,

I'm not sure what your opinion is based on then.

Creshosk
Originally posted by Mr Master
Uatu wasn't gauging anyone's power though,
he simply stated that it was a Single Universe the Mkraan Crystal destroyed.His vericity is questionable. everything he says is suspect. He's not a reliable source of information because his character was handled poorly and was used for shock value which was inadequite.


Originally posted by Mr Master
Through out the issue it was artistically illustrated to be ONE Universe. Just like when galactus was absorbing "All time and space" because ben grimm said he was... but everything else only referenced one universe.

Originally posted by Mr Master
When the Mkraan Crystal was unleashed
it was depicted Artistically on panel affecting One Reality. A reality which may or may not be seperate and has its own continuity which doesn't match up with the preior established continuity of 616.

So for all we know it has a lesser version of something that exists as a stronger version elsewhere.
Originally posted by Mr Master
.......................................................................................

So it's not just Uatu, the entire issue revolved around ONE universe.

....................................................................................... It doesn't afford the putz any more credibility. In fact it does raise other questions that I'd like to see some verificaion for.


Originally posted by Mr Master
If that wasn't concrete enough,

the Official Marvel Handbook bio also corroborates the entire story,
exactly as it happened On Panel.

.......................................................................................



Wonderful.

But if you're not going to accept the On Panel proof,
and you're not going to accept what the Official bio certified concerning said proof,

I'm not sure what your opinion is based on then. I don't take on panel proof as literal for what it depicts. Characters lie so their veracity has to be questioned when they make a statement. if they have been previously established as a reliable source for what they're speaking about then their statements can be taken as true. If however there is doubt then what they say is suspect.

Its the same way with life. Its so I don't go around accepting just whatever I'm told and disregard waht I knew prior by new information from a sketchy source.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Creshosk
His vericity is questionable. everything he says is suspect. He's not a reliable source of information because his character was handled poorly and was used for shock value which was inadequite.

As you wish.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Just like when galactus was absorbing "All time and space" because ben grimm said he was... but everything else only referenced one universe.

Ben never said Galactus was absorbing anything more than one universe.

"all time and space" in that one universe.

It was Reed that stated, after that one universe is absorbed,
Galactus would continue to absorb.

So perhaps Ben was right after all if he meant more than one universe,
it was also stated in GOTG
that Galactus was indeed in the process of absorbing all of Marvel.

Originally posted by Creshosk
A reality which may or may not be seperate and has its own continuity

which doesn't match up with the preior established continuity of 616.

It's an alternate mirror reality withIN the Multiverse,
with exact copies of the 616 characters and events.

That's it.

It's actually a Diverged Reality to be exact.

Originally posted by Creshosk
So for all we know it has a lesser version of something

that exists as a stronger version elsewhere.

The Mkraan Crystal is within the White Hot Room. (a dimension of its own)
(Outside of creation)

There's only One WHR (a nexus/dimension) in existence.

So I can't see how the Mkraan's power would fluxuate
simply because it was accessed from a Reality outside 616.


Several times has the Crystal been approached by stories involving outside Realities,

but they all end up in the same WHR.
...................................................................................

Remember Earth-913, where the X-Men defeated Krakoa
and the second generation of X-Men was never formed?
Instead of,
Cyclops breaching the Sphere with his optic blasts like the 616 version of the story,
the Imperial Guardsman Impluse's blast damaged the Sphere.
...................................................................................

Remember Jahf informing Lilandra that Earth-295 residents were draining the Mkraan's power?"

These residents being Sugar Man, Dark Beast, Nate Grey and Holocaust.

Earth-4023's Hyperion and the Exiles got involved
to help against the impending age of apocalypse.
...................................................................................


Three different Realities but all involved with the same Mkraan Crystal
located in the one and only WHR.


Originally posted by Creshosk
It doesn't afford the putz any more credibility. In fact it does raise other questions that I'd like to see some verificaion for.

I don't take on panel proof as literal for what it depicts. Characters lie so their veracity has to be questioned when they make a statement. if they have been previously established as a reliable source for what they're speaking about then their statements can be taken as true. If however there is doubt then what they say is suspect.

Its the same way with life. Its so I don't go around accepting just whatever I'm told and disregard waht I knew prior by new information from a sketchy source.

As you wish.

Creshosk
Originally posted by Mr Master
As you wish.



Ben never said Galactus was absorbing anything more than one universe.

"all time and space" in that one universe.

It was Reed that stated, after that one universe is absorbed,
Galactus would continue to absorb.

So perhaps Ben was right after all if he meant more than one universe,
it was also stated in GOTG
that Galactus was indeed in the process of absorbing all of Marvel. All the onpanel shows is the one universe. Not "all of marvel"


Originally posted by Mr Master
It's an alternate mirror reality withIN the Multiverse,
with exact copies of the 616 characters and events.No. if it had exact copies of the characters their histories would be the same. If it had exact copies of the events it would be indistinguishable from 616. Jubilee was never around during the phoenix saga. The events are different, otherwise it wouldn't be a different universe.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's it.

It's actually a Diverged Reality to be exact.



The Mkraan Crystal is within the White Hot Room. (a dimension of its own)
(Outside of creation)

There's only One WHR (a nexus/dimension) in existence.

So I can't see how the Mkraan's power would fluxuate
simply because it was accessed from a Reality outside 616. Not all doorways are the same size.


Originally posted by Mr Master
Several times has the Crystal been approached by stories involving outside Realities,

but they all end up in the same WHR.
...................................................................................

Remember Earth-913, where the X-Men defeated Krakoa
and the second generation of X-Men was never formed?
Instead of,
Cyclops breaching the Sphere with his optic blasts like the 616 version of the story,
the Imperial Guardsman Impluse's blast damaged the Sphere.
...................................................................................

Remember Jahf informing Lilandra that Earth-295 residents were draining the Mkraan's power?"

These residents being Sugar Man, Dark Beast, Nate Grey and Holocaust.

Earth-4023's Hyperion and the Exiles got involved
to help against the impending age of apocalypse.
...................................................................................


Three different Realities but all involved with the same Mkraan Crystal
located in the one and only WHR. Which is why it looks different and events pertaining to within the crystal are sometimes different right? Like when MJJ warped Psylocke and Rachel out of the room it was different from when Jean was dealing with that one universe in the here comes tomorrow storyline. Looks different, and events within were different.

Originally posted by Mr Master
As you wish. ...

xjustice69x
Originally posted by Mr Master

Three different Realities but all involved with the same Mkraan Crystal
located in the one and only WHR.

i thaught the whr was in the crystal not the other way around?
not positive im just asking.

mabey its that there is a crystal for each universe? or that it exsists symultaniusly in them all ? breaking one does not always meen destroying all that is(multiverse). unless u break the prime crystal(616)?

xjustice69x
Originally posted by Creshosk


Which is why it looks different and events pertaining to within the crystal are sometimes different right? Like when MJJ warped Psylocke and Rachel out of the room it was different from when Jean was dealing with that one universe in the here comes tomorrow storyline. Looks different, and events within were different.

...

i think that was jamie braddock that warped the room

Mr Master
Originally posted by xjustice69x
i thaught the whr was in the crystal not the other way around?
not positive im just asking.

I didn't say anything to the contrary.

Originally posted by xjustice69x
mabey its that there is a crystal for each universe?

Nah.

Originally posted by xjustice69x
or that it exsists symultaniusly in them all ?

Correct.

Because the Mkraan Crystal is connected to every universe in the Prime Multiverse.

Originally posted by xjustice69x
breaking one does not always meen destroying all that is(multiverse). unless u break the prime crystal(616)?

Nah.

There's no difference between 616 and any other reality concerning the Mkraan Crystal.

The Mkraan Crystal is the base of the WHR.
The WHR is within the Mkraan Crystal.

Creshosk
Originally posted by xjustice69x
i think that was jamie braddock that warped the room sorry. My mistake. point is the guy who did it.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Creshosk
All the onpanel shows is the one universe. Not "all of marvel"

I know, I said that.

Galactus was in the process of absorbing one universe,
but Reed said that it would not be enough:

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/8093/10qt9.th.jpg

"The time will come soon when All the Energy in the Universe through out it's History
will not be sufficient to feed him"
...............................................................................

You know, now that I look at this from a different angle,
Reed could've meant the Multiverse or more.

Because this is 616 Reed talking, and that Universe their in,
is a Future Timeline connected to 616.

They were in a different point in History (another Timeline)
this is perhaps why Reed said,

"The time will come soon when All the Energy in the Universe through out it's History
will not be sufficient to feed him"
...............................................................................

And the 616 Universe's History is defined by realities/universes called Timelines.
...............................................................................

This is probably why the GOTG said this:

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/1452/biggeatmarvelqz2.th.jpg

"Suddenly I am aware of a Timeline,
in which Galactus' appetite became insatiable,
and it threatened to consume All Existence"
...............................................................................


Interesting ... just a thought. smile

Originally posted by Creshosk
No. if it had exact copies of the characters their histories would be the same. If it had exact copies of the events it would be indistinguishable from 616. Jubilee was never around during the phoenix saga.

Actually this didn't diverge from the Phoenix Saga,

this story Diverged from a point where Jubilee is an X-Men.
........................................................................................

In the "Phoenix Saga," Dken is the villian.

In "better to light a small candle," the Dweller in Darkness is the villian.

Dken had long been dead, the Dweller re-animated his corpse from the grave:

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/8215/d1qz9.th.jpg

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8866/d2sv1.th.jpg

This is far after the damage to the Crystal had been done.

Originally posted by Creshosk
The events are different, otherwise it wouldn't be a different universe.

Actually concerning "Diverged" Realities from 616,
they are exactly the same, in appearance and history, (mirrors literally)
until at one point in their identical Histories a "Divergence" takes place in the mirror reality,
then the UniverseS become completely separate in identity from that point on.
..................................................................................................

Btw. Imo, the whole concept of diverging universes is ridiculous.

Basically countless copies of 616 and its history, yet not truly being 616.
Because some day,
one of those copies will decide to break from it's infinite mimicking of 616,
finally developing some dignity and taking up a life of its own. laughing out loud

It's silly to me.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Not all doorways are the same size.

Has this been stated or depicted somewhere?

Regardless, it's not the doorway of any universe that matters,
it's the fact that the Mkraan Crystal
is connected to every universe in the Prime Multiverse.

The Crystal is being unwittingly activated from withIN,
not from within this Diverged reality, the Crystal was only accessed from there.


It was the one and only Mkraan Crystal itself that shattered:

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/6260/99026308fj9.th.jpg

Originally posted by Creshosk
Which is why it looks different and events pertaining to within the crystal are sometimes different right? Like when MJJ warped Psylocke and Rachel out of the room it was different from when Jean was dealing with that one universe in the here comes tomorrow storyline. Looks different, and events within were different.


That was the interpretation of different artists, I can't comment on that.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Mr Master
The Mkraan Crystal is within the White Hot Room.

This is incorrect.

The WHR is within the Mkraan Crystal.

Creshosk
Originally posted by Mr Master
This is incorrect.

The WHR is within the Mkraan Crystal. How can there be only one crystal then if its a doorway to the white hot room? there's has to in a sense be a crystal in each universe. For if each universe has acess to the white hot room how do they do it?

Mr Master
Originally posted by Creshosk
How can there be only one crystal then if its a doorway to the white hot room? there's has to in a sense be a crystal in each universe. For if each universe has acess to the white hot room how do they do it?

You're right actually, I agree.

Only the Crystal exists in every reality in the Prime Multiverse simultaneously.

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/6715/mkpv4.th.jpg

There's evidently only one, in contemporaneity with others,
in all those realities in the Multiverse.

So in essence, it seems if one Crystal shatters, then they all do,
since they are all the same Crystal existing in a state of "omnipresence."

Omnipresence in the sense that it's in every reality in the Multiverse,
not in the sense that it's everywhere.
...........................................................................

Sounds like the Excalibur Tower.

There's one individual Tower in every Reality in the Omniverse,
but what's within the Tower is the same through out the Omniverse.

That being, a Nexus connected to every Reality,
only the Tower runs across all of Marvel.

Creshosk
Originally posted by Mr Master

only the Tower runs across all of Marvel. What about the crystal?

Mr Master
Originally posted by Creshosk
What about the crystal?

The entire Prime Multiverse, that excerpt I just cropped states it.

Jahf one time stated it could take out all realities,
the recent Messiah Complex arc stated it to be a nexus of all realities.
Do they mean all realities in Marvel, rather than just the Multiverse?
Not exactly sure.

Could they have upgraded its influence from Multiversal to Omniversal?
Possibly, but it hasn't been demonstrated yet.

The Mkraan bio actually says,
it can take out all realities in the Multiverse and "possibly" beyond.

So it may very well be, it simply hasn't happened yet.

Xplosive
Originally posted by Mr Master
The Mkraan bio actually says,
it can take out all realities in the Multiverse and "possibly" beyond.

Did they mean by that, all realities an beyond, actually to take all time and space?

Shouldn't that mean logically, there is one White Pheonix of the Crown and shouldn't that mean that WPTOC should then be Omniversal?
Possibly, it could be.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Xplosive
Did they mean by that, all realities an beyond, actually to take all time and space?

The Mkraan, theoretically, can take out all Earth-like dimensions in the Multiverse.

This has only been stated though, it has never been demonstrated.
When the Mkraan did explode On Panel, it destroyed and remade One universe.

That's all we have to go on, so far atleast.
..................................................................................

We may get to see the Mkraan in action soon,
or we may get Updated info on it on panel.

In the new X-Men/Vulcan series, it is sure to make its 07' dayview.
(I confused it before with the Messiah Complex arc)

Originally posted by Xplosive
Shouldn't that mean logically, there is one White Pheonix of the Crown and shouldn't that mean that WPTOC should then be Omniversal?
Possibly, it could be.

Nah ... (but there is only one WPOTC)

Mkraan has only proven to be Universal (in terms of annihilating realities)
Mkraan is Multiversal in its bio,
and it may be Multiversal on panel (but it hasn't been proven yet)

WPOTC is Not the embodiment of the Mkraan Crystal.
WPOTC is not even the embodiment of the WHR.

WPOTC is the leader/and most powerful of the Phoenix Corps.

The WHR is the base of operations/Home of the Phoenix Corps:

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/5826/pcnj9.th.jpg
(excerpt from the 2007 Marvel Handbook Mkraan bio)
..................................................................................

On Panel ...

Here we have the Phoenix Corps behing Jean in the WHR:

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/3231/pc3ub9.th.jpg
..................................................................................

Here we have the Phoenix Corps in the WHR with Jean,
they seem to be going off on their missions through out the Multiverse:

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/8574/pc2vd5.th.jpg
..................................................................................

So, the pathway (Mkraan Nexus) they all use may be Multiversal,
but the Phoenixes themselves are healers, for specific universal ailments.
(like that Alternate Eternity's Cancer during the Bubonicus infection)

WPOTC, evidently is able to Repair an entire Timeline alone.

That's the difference between the Corps and WPOTC.
..................................................................................


Btw. apparently, since the WHR is withIN the Mkraan Crystal,
it's part of the Multiversal Nexus.

We know this because when Jamie teleported Rachel and Betsy there,
they were seeing their Alternates across Realities.

Why it was empty is one of those Marvel mysteries,
perhaps all the Corps were working,
perhaps that was a sector of the Room that was vacant,
I don't know.

But atleast this proves that the Mkraan is Multiversal as a Nexus.
How much damage it can cause to the Multiverse though,
is yet to be seen.

Xplosive
If that is what are you saying, I don't see a reason WPTOC not being an Omniversal (and you said there is only one WPOTC), since it's a possibility MKraan is actually an Omniversal.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Xplosive
If that is what are you saying, I don't see a reason WPTOC not being an Omniversal (and you said there is only one WPOTC),

But I don't see how you're seeing Phoenix as Omniversal,
just because the Mkraan could be Omniversal, assuming it could be that is.

Phoenix is NOT the embodiment of the Mkraan Crystal,
So Mkraan does NOT = Phoenix.

Phoenix is Phoenix ... Mkraan is Mkraan ...
.............................................................................

WPOTC and the Phoenix Corps operate within the WHR which is within the Mkraan Crystal.

But neither any of the Corps or WPOTC herself
have ever demonstrated Multiversal power,
so just because they have access to all realities in the Multiverse,
doesn't mean they have the power to destroy them all.

Originally posted by Xplosive
since it's a possibility MKraan is actually an Omniversal.

Mkraan is definitely Universal, and may be Multiversal.

I'm willing to give it a Multiversal status because it's been stated in different issues,
besides the official bio.

Omniversal is a stretch,
there's still not enough (if any) evidence, stated or otherwise,
that could make us begin to consider this seriously.

ExodusCloak
Hypothetical Question: If Vulcan was to shatter the M'Kraan Crystal in one reality and then absorb its power and become Phoenix is there still any chance of the Crystal being considered multiversal?

Mr Master
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Hypothetical Question: If Vulcan was to shatter the M'Kraan Crystal in one reality and then absorb its power and become Phoenix is there still any chance of the Crystal being considered multiversal?

I don't think the Crystal would turn him into Phoenix, (I'm not sure)
but if Vulcan can do that,
well then that would just shit all over the Mkraan's rep.
(Vulcan is tuff, but he ain't all that)

The interesting thing though, would be seeing what it does to him,
how powerful does he become? I'd like to see that if it ever happens,
keep me posted EC.

ExodusCloak
Well this is the most up to date information about the project that I know of...:

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0711/14/firsts.htm

Mr Master
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Well this is the most up to date information about the project that I know of...:

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0711/14/firsts.htm

That looks real nice.

I can't wait to get my hands on that.

Good looks on the heads up EC.

Xplosive
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Well this is the most up to date information about the project that I know of...:

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0711/14/firsts.htm

In other words, what if Vulcan became Phoenix? When his unlimited rage is fueled with unlimited power...who will be able to stop him now?

Hm. Maybe someone evil with full Phoenix power could demonstrate the full Poenix power if he went on rampage (no holding back). Then we could see who could trully stop the power of the Phoenix.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Xplosive
In other words, what if Vulcan became Phoenix? When his unlimited rage is fueled with unlimited power...who will be able to stop him now?

Hm. Maybe someone evil with full Phoenix power could demonstrate the full Poenix power if he went on rampage (no holding back). Then we could see who could trully stop the power of the Phoenix.

It looks very interesting, let's wait till it comes out, let's read it,
then make our thoughts on the matter known.

Xplosive
Originally posted by Mr Master
It looks very interesting, let's wait till it comes out, let's read it,
then make our thoughts on the matter known.

I agree. I will certainly read it.

id369
Originally posted by Xplosive
In other words, what if Vulcan became Phoenix? When his unlimited rage is fueled with unlimited power...who will be able to stop him now?

Hm. Maybe someone evil with full Phoenix power could demonstrate the full Poenix power if he went on rampage (no holding back). Then we could see who could trully stop the power of the Phoenix.


I sense much fail in this issue (Thanks to Vulcan).

Bransolute
Originally posted by Xplosive
In other words, what if Vulcan became Phoenix? When his unlimited rage is fueled with unlimited power...who will be able to stop him now?

Hm. Maybe someone evil with full Phoenix power could demonstrate the full Poenix power if he went on rampage (no holding back). Then we could see who could trully stop the power of the Phoenix. Are we looking at the same book? Veronica #185?

Old-Wizard.com
I'd have to go with Galactus based on Stan Lee's own admission that the power cosmic is the most powerful force in the Marvel Universe. I believe (though I could be wrong) that Galactus when fully fed has complete mastery over the power cosmic.

Utrigita
Welcome Old-Wizard.com to Killermovies smile

Old-Wizard.com
Originally posted by Utrigita
Welcome Old-Wizard.com to Killermovies smile

Thanks.

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