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The Justice League has detected the approach of a massive power signature unlike anything they've ever seen.

All the heroes are gathered and ready to face the might of Galactus, lest he destroy them and their world.

How does it go?

(this is the 90s FF Cartoon Galactus)

Huc wins

all the members

All except Amazo who I heard was a member and from what I hear, he was insanely stupidly powerful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B8bC1JWL4k No doubt Amazo would solo Galactus but without him i think they still stand a chance.

How would they stand a chance?

What would they do?

*looks at video*

Nice. But nothing I'd say Galactus would be afraid of much.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
How would they stand a chance?

What would they do?

*looks at video*

Nice. But nothing I'd say Galactus would be afraid of much.

They Still had Dr. Fate and zatanna. more so fate, but that would put a big dent in big G's dinner plans.

Fate and Zatanna didn't really do too much in the cartoon series though, especially the latter. Circe was more impressive than Zatanna. Fate did pretty well, but had a few low showings like getting owned by Hawkgirl. Nothing to faze G.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Fate and Zatanna didn't really do too much in the cartoon series though, especially the latter. Circe was more impressive than Zatanna. Fate did pretty well, but had a few low showings like getting owned by Hawkgirl. Nothing to faze G. Well hawkgirl's mace was specifically designed to disrupt magic. And I believe it was fate who had the spell that pushed back the world ender. It was a couple of world ender storylines if my memory serves me correctly.

World ender as in the cthulhu copy? Grundy was the star there though. Yeah the mace was made to disrupt magic, but you would think that a high end mystic would be prepared for such a contingency. It would probably not have been the first time someeone used it on him.

In the cartoon Galactus fought Ego and said Ego threatened to destroy a galaxy.

So, did the JLU ever fight a living planet that threatened the galaxy?

They did beat Luthor/Brainiac who allegedly would threaten the universe.

JLA beat THIS GUY?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBqkvFJ-O34

Originally posted by Ouallada
World ender as in the cthulhu copy? Grundy was the star there though. Yeah the mace was made to disrupt magic, but you would think that a high end mystic would be prepared for such a contingency. It would probably not have been the first time someeone used it on him.

He BFR'd Hawkgirl's mace to a pocket dimension of his creation.

Originally posted by batdude123
He BFR'd Hawkgirl's mace to a pocket dimension of his creation.

Erm, he did not. I'm referring to 'the terror beyond", and she was about to cave his skull in when WW stopped her.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Erm, he did not. I'm referring to 'the terror beyond", and she was about to cave his skull in when WW stopped her.

I know which episode you're referring to. I'm referring to "Wake the Dead" where Solomon Grundy was resurrected using black magic.

That's not really a combat situation, is it (iirc)?

No.

This guy.
wQwUaCa_-J8

Originally posted by Ouallada
That's not really a combat situation, is it (iirc)?

Point? He did it with a gesture. Plus, in Terror Beyond, he had plenty of opportunities to beat her.

When I go to the firing range, I hit approximately nine in ten shots. Am I expected to repeat under combat stress? Shall we use feats in dojos instead of combat feats now? As we have an actual combat between the two, I would prefer to use that.

In terror beyond, all the magic he channeled was dispersed pretty easily by hawkgirl. I just rewatched that part to refresh my memory.

Originally posted by Ouallada
When I go to the firing range, I hit approximately nine in ten shots. Am I expected to repeat under combat stress? Shall we use feats in dojos instead of combat feats now? As we have an actual combat between the two, I would prefer to use that.

In terror beyond, all the magic he channeled was dispersed pretty easily by hawkgirl. I just rewatched that part to refresh my memory.

He was just standing there doing nothing when she got close to him.

There were plenty of things he could have done in that scenario to defeat her.

Still, I really don't know what you're trying to prove with this. Does cartoon Galactus have a mace made out of nth metal? Didn't think so.

Originally posted by batdude123
He was just standing there doing nothing when she got close to him.

There were plenty of things he could have done in that scenario to defeat her.

Still, I really don't know what you're trying to prove with this. Does cartoon Galactus have a mace made out of nth metal? Didn't think so.

He was firing a blast at her after his numerous magical spells failed. She was closing in on him and was about to hammer him when WW held her back.

As mentioned, he already tried plenty of things, and none worked.

The original point was that Fate would not have such a profound effect on a battle with G as nvr thought, but the conversation digressed when you interjected by saying that Fate BFRed harkgirl's mace, which I assume is supposed to invalidate my earlier point about his low showing.

Originally posted by Ouallada
He was firing a blast at her after his numerous magical spells failed. She was closing in on him and was about to hammer him when WW held her back.

She had him by the throat, iirc before she was going to make the final strike. As she lifted the mace ready to club him, he could have easily fired a magical blast at her for the KO. Her durability was pathetic in JLU.

Originally posted by Ouallada
As mentioned, he already tried plenty of things, and none worked.

A teleportation spell could have worked perfectly, or he could have sent the mace to a pocket dimension just like he did here in the beginning of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiywcCk6_l8

The reason none of that happened was simply to show how her nth metal mace disrupts magic.

Originally posted by Ouallada
The original point was that Fate would not have such a profound effect on a battle with G as nvr thought

Which is a facetious point if you think about it. Cartoon Galactus doesn't have a magical disrupting weapon he carries around with him. Therefore, this 'point' you're trying to make is moot.

Originally posted by batdude123
She had him by the throat, iirc before she was going to make the final strike. As she lifted the mace ready to club him, he could have easily fired a magical blast at her for the KO. Her durability was pathetic in JLU.



A teleportation spell could have worked perfectly, or he could have sent the mace to a pocket dimension just like he did here in the beginning of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiywcCk6_l8

The reason none of that happened was simply to show how her nth metal mace disrupts magic.



Which is a facetious point if you think about it. Cartoon Galactus doesn't have a magical disrupting weapon he carries around with him. Therefore, this 'point' you're trying to make is moot.

And she could have simply clubbed him in the face without lifting it so high into the air. Arguing about what could have been done is arbitrary at best. The fact that he was in such a situation already shows that she had the better of him.

He had already tried doppelgangers, animated statues and blasts. Shoulda woulda coulda, isn't it? And he DID try to BFR her, but it obviously failed. There is nothing which leads me to conclude that he could have BFRed the mace when hawkgirl was wielding it.

The point is simply that if Fate were on a level high enough to trouble G in any way, his magics would not have been so easily disrupted. I already know that the weapon was designed to disrupt magic, but I'm pretty sure we can both safely assume that it would not have been the first time he was exposed to such weapons/artifacts. The point still stands that from what we have seen of Fate, he isn't going to trouble G much.

Originally posted by Ouallada
And she could have simply clubbed him in the face without lifting it so high into the air. Arguing about what could have been done is arbitrary at best. The fact that he was in such a situation already shows that she had the better of him.

She still would've had to telegraph the move. Her swing isn't instant. And the fact remains that he stopped his own attack.

Originally posted by Ouallada
He had already tried doppelgangers, animated statues and blasts. Shoulda woulda coulda, isn't it? And he DID try to BFR her, but it obviously failed. There is nothing which leads me to conclude that he could have BFRed the mace when hawkgirl was wielding it.

There's no difference between whether or not she has it in her hand. The mace itself is what disrupts magic.

In 'Wake the Dead,' he stated that the mace was disrupting the flow of magic in his tower, so he sent it into a pocket dimension. And he did so with a gesture. There's no reason as to why he couldn't have done it in 'Terror Beyond.'

The only reason he didn't is because that would not have made it an interesting fight.

Originally posted by Ouallada
The point is simply that if Fate were on a level high enough to trouble G in any way, his magics would not have been so easily disrupted.

This statement makes absolutely no sense. Galactus doesn't have a magical disrupting plot device with him.

When Solomon Grundy was resurrected with black magic, nobody was able to take him down.

The reason Grundy was defeated was because of Shayera's nth metal mace. So I really don't think it's fair to base 'power levels' off of a plot device.

It's like Drax and Thanos. Thanos is MUCH more powerful than Drax, but Drax is like Thanos' kryptonite which was the reason why he was able to kill him.

Originally posted by Ouallada
I already know that the weapon was designed to disrupt magic, but I'm pretty sure we can both safely assume that it would not have been the first time he was exposed to such weapons/artifacts. The point still stands that from what we have seen of Fate, he isn't going to trouble G much.

I'm not so sure. In the Superman Animated Series, Dr. Fate defeated a Lord of Chaos named Karkull who was destroying magical dimensions.

Karkull impressed me more than what I saw of Galactus in the FF cartoon series.

Bottom line, I don't think it's fair to base Dr. Fate's threat level to Galactus on HG's mace.

Originally posted by batdude123
She still would've had to telegraph the move. Her swing isn't instant. And the fact remains that he stopped his own attack.


She would have needed a backswing. Fate would have needed to draw energy to blast with as well. As I said, shoulda woulda could. Does not prove anything. The only thing proven was that she was about to cave his skull in. For all we know, he could have been low on energy. I wouldn't know, and thus I choose not to debate such ambiguities.


Originally posted by batdude123
There's no difference between whether or not she has it in her hand. The mace itself is what disrupts magic.

In 'Wake the Dead,' he stated that the mace was disrupting the flow of magic in his tower, so he sent it into a pocket dimension. And he did so with a gesture. There's no reason as to why he couldn't have done it in 'Terror Beyond.'

The only reason he didn't is because that would not have made it an interesting fight.


Once again, combat feat > static feat. You can argue otherwise, but I don't think it would hold water. I say that the simpler and hence more believable solution, as per occam's razor, simply has it that he was not able to duplicate such a feat under stress.

Originally posted by batdude123
This statement makes absolutely no sense. Galactus doesn't have a magical disrupting plot device with him.


Sentry's power level was partially judged based on what he did to AM. The same thing applies here, but we simply switch Fate for Sentry and hawkgirl for AM. If we are to debate how much of a threat Fate would be to G, then a level for Fate's magics has to be established. That was a low showing for him.

Originally posted by batdude123
When Solomon Grundy was resurrected with black magic, nobody was able to take him down.

The reason Grundy was defeated was because of Shayera's nth metal mace. So I really don't think it's fair to base 'power levels' off of a plot device.


Shayera's mace affected the magics animating him, while the others were attacking him as a physical entity. In short, she basically went to the root of the problem while the others tried to solve it superficially. I understand the point made though.

Originally posted by batdude123
It's like Drax and Thanos. Thanos is MUCH more powerful than Drax, but Drax is like Thanos' kryptonite which was the reason why he was able to kill him.


That is correct, and I can see the parallels. However, it can be seen that if Thanos was battling back. he would have probably battered Drax. Therein lies the difference. Fate WAS battling back.


Originally posted by batdude123
I'm not so sure. In the Superman Animated Series, Dr. Fate defeated a Lord of Chaos named Karkull who was destroying magical dimensions.

Karkull impressed me more than what I saw of Galactus in the FF cartoon series.

Bottom line, I don't think it's fair to base Dr. Fate's threat level to Galactus on HG's mace.

Well, this is just JLU right?

It isn't fair to base his power level on one showing, but as Fate was never a major recurring character, it makes sense to scrutinise the appearances he had more carefully. My point is simply that his other apperances, when weighed down by this low showing, do not make him a sufficient threat to G. I hope you can see where I am coming from, because with a handful of feats by Fate, it isn;t enough to base his threat levels on what we know of him, but to weigh his individual showings and to use the average. The same thing applies to Zatanna and Circe in the JLUs series. The latter was more impressive, even though Zatanna is the more powerful.

Originally posted by Ouallada
She would have needed a backswing. Fate would have needed to draw energy to blast with as well. As I said, shoulda woulda could. Does not prove anything. The only thing proven was that she was about to cave his skull in. For all we know, he could have been low on energy. I wouldn't know, and thus I choose not to debate such ambiguities.

You're a funny guy. Dr. Fate doesn't and he didn't run out of energy.

And there was easily enough time for him to blast her when she was taking a back swing.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Once again, combat feat > static feat. You can argue otherwise, but I don't think it would hold water. I say that the simpler and hence more believable solution, as per occam's razor, simply has it that he was not able to duplicate such a feat under stress.

The reason he didn't send away her mace, use telepathy, etc. is because if he defeated her, the monster they were trying to prevent from entering their dimension would not have been able to get there. Thus, making the second episode of Terror Beyond not possible.

I'd say it holds more water than your logic on why Dr. Fate couldn't do anything to cartoon Galactus.

Her getting the better of him, however, is in NO WAY an indication of Dr. Fate's power level. Thus, using this as a point of reference as to why he wouldn't be a threat to Galactus is, in actuality, stupid.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Sentry's power level was partially judged based on what he did to AM. The same thing applies here, but we simply switch Fate for Sentry and hawkgirl for AM. If we are to debate how much of a threat Fate would be to G, then a level for Fate's magics has to be established. That was a low showing for him.

This isn't the same thing at all.

AM doesn't wield a plot device that makes Sentry's energies void, and it's kinda hard to overload something (referring to the mace) that doesn't absorb energies.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Shayera's mace affected the magics animating him, while the others were attacking him as a physical entity. In short, she basically went to the root of the problem while the others tried to solve it superficially. I understand the point made though.

That's exactly right. You just proved my point.

Because of the PLOT DEVICE weapon she carries, she was able to defeat him. That, however, does not make her more powerful than the rest.

Comprende?

Originally posted by Ouallada
That is correct, and I can see the parallels. However, it can be seen that if Thanos was battling back. he would have probably battered Drax. Therein lies the difference. Fate WAS battling back.

Is kryptonite more powerful than Superman? No, it isn't.

However, it can be used to defeat him.

Pretty much the same situation here.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Well, this is just JLU right?

If this is strictly JLU, then your example doesn't work because it was in Justice League.

Goes both ways here.

Originally posted by Ouallada
It isn't fair to base his power level on one showing, but as Fate was never a major recurring character, it makes sense to scrutinise the appearances he had more carefully. My point is simply that his other apperances, when weighed down by this low showing, do not make him a sufficient threat to G. I hope you can see where I am coming from, because with a handful of feats by Fate, it isn;t enough to base his threat levels on what we know of him, but to weigh his individual showings and to use the average. The same thing applies to Zatanna and Circe in the JLUs series. The latter was more impressive, even though Zatanna is the more powerful.

I really don't see how you're not getting this.

Her plot device mace has nothing to do with his power.

In fact, animated Dr. Fate has battle a few creatures how (as far as what I've seen from cartoon Big G) that are more powerful than animated Galactus. Plus, Dr. Fate has the entire League backing him up here.

The only way your argument could make sense is if you actually believe that Hawkgirl is more powerful than Dr. Fate, which is laughable. That's not even close to being the case.

Originally posted by batdude123
You're a funny guy. Dr. Fate doesn't and he didn't run out of energy.

And there was easily enough time for him to blast her when she was taking a back swing.


Based on absolutely nothing. This is JLU Fate, although you could try proving that he does not run out of energy.

And she could have simply driven the mace into his face. Classic h2h trick even today. Grab collar, change into a choke. A mace has sharp ends, and should still be able to do damage. You still want to argue on the issue of imagination?


Originally posted by batdude123
The reason he didn't send away her mace, use telepathy, etc. is because if he defeated her, the monster they were trying to prevent from entering their dimension would not have been able to get there. Thus, making the second episode of Terror Beyond not possible.

I'd say it holds more water than your logic on why Dr. Fate couldn't do anything to cartoon Galactus.


Hmmm, so the next time I argue for G at normal levels, any showing in which he does not one shot a being he should is because there needs to be another issue.

In any case, the above quoted paragraph makes no sense at all. Do I need to explain why, or can you see the self-contradiction?

Oh, and as I have said, he already tried and FAILED to bfr hawkgirl the same way he bfred the other combatants during that very fight, which makes me wonder why you are contradicting yourself. Meaning failing to bfr during a combat situation > bfring her mace in a non-combat situation.

Originally posted by batdude123
Her getting the better of him, however, is in NO WAY an indication of Dr. Fate's power level. Thus, using this as a point of reference as to why he wouldn't be a threat to Galactus is, in actuality, stupid.


I am using this as a point of reference to indicate Fate's own level, and thus drawing a comparison to that of G's. Let me know when we should start ignoring losses based on arbitration.


Originally posted by batdude123
This isn't the same thing at all.

AM doesn't wield a plot device that makes Sentry's energies void, and it's kinda hard to overload something (referring to the mace) that doesn't absorb energies.


AM IS a plot device based on how much absorbing ability he has. The parallel is equal to your usage of Thanos and Drax. Unless you are trying to tell me that any wielder of that mace could get the better of Fate.


Originally posted by batdude123
That's exactly right. You just proved my point.

Because of the PLOT DEVICE weapon she carries, she was able to defeat him. That, however, does not make her more powerful than the rest.

Comprende?


Eh, quote me on where I said hawkgirl was more powerful than Fate. Saying that it was a low showing for him, mitigating part of his better showings, already stipulates that Fate is more powerful than hawkgirl.

Capito?


Originally posted by batdude123
Is kryptonite more powerful than Superman? No, it isn't.

However, it can be used to defeat him.

Pretty much the same situation here.


Once again, quote me on where I said she was more powerful. Otherwise, do take those words out of my mouth.

Superman has been shown to overcome K-nite. I would expect the same from Fate if he were to be a threat to G.

Originally posted by batdude123
If this is strictly JLU, then your example doesn't work because it was in Justice League.

Goes both ways here.


It's ok with me. Taking that low showing also takes away everything he did against icthulhu.

Of course, except that JLU is a subset of JL, while Superman's TAS has as much to do with it as a Koream prostitute has to with with Ghandi.

Originally posted by batdude123
I really don't see how you're not getting this.

Her plot device mace has nothing to do with his power.

In fact, animated Dr. Fate has battle a few creatures how (as far as what I've seen from cartoon Big G) that are more powerful than animated Galactus. Plus, Dr. Fate has the entire League backing him up here.

The only way your argument could make sense is if you actually believe that Hawkgirl is more powerful than Dr. Fate, which is laughable. That's not even close to being the case.

All the examples given by yourself thus far with regards to a weakness has said weakness overcome or logically overcome. Superman > K-nite. Thanos fighting back > Drax. Fate did not do enough to win, regardless of whether it partially negated his powerset.

As said, JLU fate. Take away that low showing if you wish, because that takes away a lot of the league's showings too. That is equivalent to using alternate reality feats. At least JL and JLU are within the same timeline/reality.

My argument is simply that Fate would have done better against hawkgirl if he was at a high enough level to threaten G. Your argument is that he BFRed her mace and that he could have done better against hawkgirl, while he did a few pretty things on Superman's TAS. That shows a threat to G in what way?

Not counting Amazo, who easily solo him, JLU would stop him.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Not counting Amazo, who easily solo him, JLU would stop him.

Amazo would easily pose the largest threat to G, because we never saw real matter manipulation from any herald or G himself, and he did plough through the whole league to get to Luthor. He isn't a member of the JLU per se though. The league itself, I'm not sure. They were given plenty of problems by low level beings, but they did defeat a couple of high end threats. That said, we apparently cannot use feats from seasons 1-2, so that takes out John's Despero feat, the league defeating the manhunters, defeating DS, metamorpho etc.

Double.

Let me just use this double to say this. Bat, please do not take my splattered use of sarcasm etc as a slight. I've enjoyed the debate thus far, and it's always good to debate with someone who knows his stuff and who is pretty logical.

I'm still going to win