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What has the Classic Molecule man done on panel that makes him greater than The Current LT?

Has the LT been retconned or has he always been 2nd only to God?

IF he was Retconned, Would that mean that he is now greater than he once was, and thus Classic MM wouldn't stand a chance? Debate please. Someone clear this up. Becuz I'm tired of people thinking that Classic MM is anything but an after thought to someone like the LT. In my opinion, Mad Jim Jaspers is as powerful or more than classic MM.

Classic MM was shown on panel to be greater then LT.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Classic MM was shown on panel to be greater then LT.

How? Did he beat the LT? did he perform some feat the LT did not? Did the lt confirm this out of his own mouth?

He always does this. Whenever everyone starts saying Classic MM is greater on another thread he make this same damn thread.

It was confirmed by many different characters, including the Beyonder.

Been done before:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=442301& amp;highlight=title%3A%28Molecule+Man+vs+Living+Tr
ibunal%29

Originally posted by King Kandy
It was confirmed by many different characters, including the Beyonder.

So nothing was ever shown? Molecule man never actually did anything that the LT hadn't. So explain to me how the LT can be the same, and has ALWAYS been 2nd only to God. THat would mean that there are two versions of the LT. one that is always 2nd only to god, and one that was lessor than a human being.

He's currently second to God... In pre-retcon days it wan't so.

Originally posted by King Kandy
He's currently second to God... In pre-retcon days it wan't so.

Ok in the pre retcon days, had he any feats nearly like he has now? I mean now he sits over guys like Jim jaspers and wanda. who would pwn anything that the MM or beyonder did on panel. He also sits over an omniverse now, then there was none. So has he grown in power?

No he hasn't.... MM>MJJ.

The Lt told the other abstracts to respect and obey pr MM

Same with PR beyonder

The Molecule Man was established during Secret Wars 2 to be 2nd only to the Beyonder in power and above all the abstracts, including the Living Tribunal. The Living Tribunal's role has not changed since then, so he would still be inferior in power to the "Secret Wars" Molecule Man.

Originally posted by fatgogeta
The Molecule Man was established during Secret Wars 2 to be 2nd only to the Beyonder in power and above all the abstracts, including the Living Tribunal. The Living Tribunal's role has not changed since then, so he would still be inferior in power to the "Secret Wars" Molecule Man.

And yet the LT has done superior feats than the lt in secret wars. And now sits above an omniverse. where as before, the beyonder was the rest of the omniverse. do you see the problem?

These threads are pointless.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
And yet the LT has done superior feats than the lt in secret wars. And now sits above an omniverse. where as before, the beyonder was the rest of the omniverse. do you see the problem?
But it's the same LT... It's not like he was just sitting in his chair and suddenly he was Omniversal...

Originally posted by King Kandy
But it's the same LT... It's not like he was just sitting in his chair and suddenly he was Omniversal...

If you are a king, and you lord over 20 acres, and then someone dies and gives you 100 acres, you are the same king yes? Are you now more powerful do to the authority you wield? Answer.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
If you are a king, and you lord over 20 acres, and then someone dies and gives you 100 acres, you are the same king yes? Are you now more powerful do to the authority you wield? Answer. These analogies crack me up.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
If you are a king, and you lord over 20 acres, and then someone dies and gives you 100 acres, you are the same king yes? Are you now more powerful do to the authority you wield? Answer.
Yeah, but only your Juridiction changed. You wouldn't have any better chances if someone challenges you to a duel.

Originally posted by quanchi112
These analogies crack me up.

Is it too far above your understanding?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Is it too far above your understanding? Nver its just funny how you always think an analogy of yours clinches the argument for ya.

Originally posted by quanchi112
These analogies crack me up.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Yeah, but only your Juridiction changed. You wouldn't have any better chances if someone challenges you to a duel.

You would if another king challenged your might. Becuz you'd have more authority over more soldiers. The LT's powers work that way. He gets authority over What ever and whom ever belongs to the TOAA. Hence he is severly more powerful now that there is an omniverse than when there was only a multiverse. And The beyonder was what is now considered the rest of the omniverse. The LT sits above That space. No getting around it. The LT is far superior to classic MM and beyonder no matter how you look at it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Nver its just funny how you always think an analogy of yours clinches the argument for ya.

It has, or hadn't you noticed.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
You would if another king challenged your might. Becuz you'd have more authority over more soldiers.
I'm sorry, but this isn't "LT and everyone under him Vs. Classic Molecule man"... It's "LT versus Classic Molecule Man".

It DOESN'T MATTER how many universes he has jurisdiction over, because this is JUST his personal power.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
The LT's powers work that way. He gets authority over What ever and whom ever belongs to the TOAA. Hence he is severly more powerful now that there is an omniverse than when there was only a multiverse. And The beyonder was what is now considered the rest of the omniverse. The LT sits above That space. No getting around it. The LT is far superior to classic MM and beyonder no matter how you look at it.
Again, you keep trying to equate power to Authority...

Originally posted by King Kandy
I'm sorry, but this isn't "LT and everyone under him Vs. Classic Molecule man"... It's "LT versus Classic Molecule Man".

It DOESN'T MATTER how many universes he has jurisdiction over, because this is JUST his personal power.

Again, you keep trying to equate power to Authority...
Kandy, you fail. The LT's power comes from what? his authority. No authority, no power.

I have proven that the LT is far superior by sheer fact that he has more to rule over. It is a perfect and seemless argument. The sheer fact that you are fighting against it means little to me. You actually are trying to say that Authority doesn't increase one's power. Please. President Bush is far more powerful as President bush than he was as govenor bush. Same man. Much more powerful.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Kandy, you fail. The LT's power comes from what? his authority. No authority, no power.

I have proven that the LT is far superior by sheer fact that he has more to rule over. It is a perfect and seemless argument. The sheer fact that you are fighting against it means little to me. You actually are trying to say that Authority doesn't increase one's power. Please. President Bush is far more powerful as President bush than he was as govenor bush. Same man. Much more powerful.
Right. But take Bush away from his army, his country, and have him fight John Kerry in a pit... It won't matter if it's President Bush or Governer Bush, because it's his personal power and not his Authority.

Same thing here... LT can rule as many universes as he wants, but it won't matter in this fight since they can't help him.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Right. But take Bush away from his army, his country, and have him fight John Kerry in a pit... It won't matter if it's President Bush or Governer Bush, because it's his personal power and not his Authority.

Same thing here... LT can rule as many universes as he wants, but it won't matter in this fight since they can't help him.
That isn't true. becuz john kerry would NEVER have the chance to fight bush becuz of who he is. It works the same with the LT. The LT sits in judgement over the OMNIVERSE. In 84 he was only in judgment over the multiverse. The LT's power comes directly from his authority. There is no getting around that. He's far more powerful now than then. Which means he pwns classic beyonder and classic Mm going by status and feats.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
That isn't true. becuz john kerry would NEVER have the chance to fight bush becuz of who he is.
Right. But this is KMC, and characters fight on nuetral ground.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
It works the same with the LT. The LT sits in judgement over the OMNIVERSE. In 84 he was only in judgment over the multiverse. The LT's power comes directly from his authority. There is no getting around that.
So when you say "LT is more powerful" you actualy mean "LT is more important"?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
He's far more powerful now than then. Which means he pwns classic beyonder and classic Mm going by status and feats.
He isn't any more powerful. Because all the omniverse can't help him in this fight. It's JUST HIM vs. MM.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Right. But this is KMC, and characters fight on nuetral ground.


So when you say "LT is more powerful" you actualy mean "LT is more important"?


He isn't any more powerful. Because all the omniverse can't help him in this fight. It's JUST HIM vs. MM.

Well if it where just him and MM, then it would come down to thier on panel feats wouldn't it? Guess who trumps who? you guessed it. The Lt has far superior feats than the MM. So MM's status has NO meaning then if it's a neutral ground.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Well if it where just him and MM, then it would come down to thier on panel feats wouldn't it? Guess who trumps who? you guessed it. The Lt has far superior feats than the MM. So MM's status has NO meaning then if it's a neutral ground.
Well MM was more powerful then LT. MM knew it, the abstracts knew it, LT knew it, Beyonder knew it, watcher knew it, your mom knows it, hell even YOU know it (much as you like to pretend you don't.)

Originally posted by King Kandy
Well MM was more powerful then LT. MM knew it, the abstracts knew it, LT knew it, Beyonder knew it, watcher knew it, your mom knows it, hell even YOU know it (much as you like to pretend you don't.)
Just add "the writers knew it" and this line would go down as one of the best lines in KMC history lol.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
That isn't true. becuz john kerry would NEVER have the chance to fight bush becuz of who he is. It works the same with the LT. The LT sits in judgement over the OMNIVERSE. In 84 he was only in judgment over the multiverse. The LT's power comes directly from his authority. There is no getting around that. He's far more powerful now than then. Which means he pwns classic beyonder and classic Mm going by status and feats. This argument fails. Your saying becuz of Bushs army that Kerry couldnt fight him. This isnt multiverse vs multiverse or whatever you want ot turn this into its one character vs the other.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Well MM was more powerful then LT. MM knew it, the abstracts knew it, LT knew it, Beyonder knew it, watcher knew it, your mom knows it, hell even YOU know it (much as you like to pretend you don't.)

Um knew it? that is the best you can come up with? LMAO. That fails. On so many lvls. I've won this lil debate unless you can come up with something better than MM knew it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
This argument fails. Your saying becuz of Bushs army that Kerry couldnt fight him. This isnt multiverse vs multiverse or whatever you want ot turn this into its one character vs the other.

No. you are clearly not an intellectual thinker. Kerry could NEVER fight Bush becuz of the authority bush wields. period. He'd never get close enough. Would he even dare. The Authority the LT wields commands that he is more powerful. Wait i have it. In 84 the LT was judge over the multiverse. But he couldn't rule any of the space that the beyonder ruled. Yet we have seen the LT hold TWO megaverses in his hand and do with them what he would. Now how could the LT in 84 have that kind of power when those mega verses would be part of the beyonder's wrealm at that point. Thus the LT has been shown to be superior to his 84 days. I win. shut your mouth now. the game is over.

What the f*ck are both of you talking about?

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
What the f*ck are both of you talking about?

I made the statement about a king and how he gets more powerful as he gets more land. And it has turned into this. I wish people would get off classic mm and beyonders dicks. They dont' have the feats to say they are superior to the LT. period.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
No. you are clearly not an intellectual thinker. Kerry could NEVER fight Bush becuz of the authority bush wields. period. He'd never get close enough. Would he even dare. The Authority the LT wields commands that he is more powerful. Wait i have it. In 84 the LT was judge over the multiverse. But he couldn't rule any of the space that the beyonder ruled. Yet we have seen the LT hold TWO megaverses in his hand and do with them what he would. Now how could the LT in 84 have that kind of power when those mega verses would be part of the beyonder's wrealm at that point. Thus the LT has been shown to be superior to his 84 days. I win. shut your mouth now. the game is over. What authority does John Kerry have? He doesnt even have his own country? This analogy fails. At least have two dictators going to war not one president battling the guy who lost the election with the entire U.S. military backing him up. I dont even know who wins this battle as Im not familiar with the molecule man back then but I just know this argument reeks of loopy logic.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What authority does John Kerry have? He doesnt even have his own country? This analogy fails. At least have two dictators going to war not one president battling the guy who lost the election with the entire U.S. military backing him up. I dont even know who wins this battle as Im not familiar with the molecule man back then but I just know this argument reeks of loopy logic. Then take it up with kandy. He's the one who brought up kerry. I brought up two kings. to which you said that logic failed. but now your saying basically the same thing. You are so rediculous it's un real.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Then take it up with kandy. He's the one who brought up kerry. I brought up two kings. to which you said that logic failed. but now your saying basically the same thing. You are so rediculous it's un real.

So Bush is a king now?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Then take it up with kandy. He's the one who brought up kerry. I brought up two kings. to which you said that logic failed. but now your saying basically the same thing. You are so rediculous it's un real. For one if we were comparing two kings in a fight it wouldnt have anything to do with their kingdoms. Just the kings. That is all.

Originally posted by Kutulu
So Bush is a king now?

Um. I used two kings for my analogy. When talking about FIGHTING. I used bush in my analogy about growth in power. Kandy used kerry when Talking about FIGHTING. Quan says to use two dictators when talking about FIGHTING. I did something like that with two Kings. Not kerry. That was kandy. Keep up. And stop looking for ways to sock and troll and you can't even pay attention correctly.

Classic MM, FTW, in a stomp.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Classic MM, FTW, in a stomp.
You always say that. It's bullshit. Un supported by anything but your own loopy way. But Let me present you with a problem. IN 84 There was nothing outside of the multiverse but the beyonder's wrealm correct? now if you say the lt hasn't grown in power that would mean he actually had power over the beyonder wrealm since the beyonder wrealm was everything But the multiverse which is now the omniverse. Now in 84 the LT had never shown anything but multiversal power. currently he's shown holding two megaverses in his hand. Now how could classic mm be more poweful than a being who can actually hold two mega verses in his hand? The megaverses didn't exist back then. So the lT didn't have authority or power over them. now that they do exist, it would seem that the lt's powers has grown to include them and indeed the omniverse. There is no way to get around this. You just are a classic MM and beyonder FANATIC and refuse to see the folly of your ways. And guess what, others agree with me. they pm me all of the time. They are just afraid of your rediculous scan posting and ranting until people relent and let you have your way.

I find it useless to discuss comics characters that were retconned into not being that powerfull ever.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
I find it useless to discuss comics characters that were retconned into not being that powerfull ever.

I agree, why debate retconned characters when thats not the real them?? Pretty silly

It does rather ignore the concept of the retcon doesn't it?

To argue one side or the other would to be to ignore the stipulations of the match.

Classic MM was second to TOAA.
Current LT is second to TOAA

Which is greater? 2 or 2?

Someones power as an individual =/= their authority.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Someones power as an individual =/= their authority.

Exactly. They fight on nuetral ground, and LT's universes can't protect him in this fight.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Exactly. They fight on nuetral ground, and LT's universes can't protect him in this fight.

Okay since the underlining and italics were missed lets try this again:

"Also, all characters, regardless of where the fight takes place, or what universe/medium they are native to, will have full access to their abilities at optimum efficiency as they are depicted in their native universes."

Originally posted by Creshosk
It does rather ignore the concept of the retcon doesn't it?

To argue one side or the other would to be to ignore the stipulations of the match.

Classic MM was second to TOAA.
Current LT is second to TOAA

Which is greater? 2 or 2?
The only difference between the current LT and the LT is the word "current" in front of it (something nvr likes to do). The LT was never retconned and MM was greater than LT before the retcon, therefore, Classic MM wins.

Originally posted by Air Legend
The only difference between the current LT and the LT is the word "current" in front of it (something nvr likes to do). The LT was never retconned and MM was greater than LT before the retcon, therefore, Classic MM wins.

Obviously you didn't get what creshook was trying to illustrate. You probably wouldn't. It's for the intelligent.

LT for the win

Classic MM wins.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Okay since the underlining and italics were missed lets try this again:

"Also, all characters, regardless of where the fight takes place, or what universe/medium they are native to, will have full access to their abilities at optimum efficiency as they are depicted in their native universes."

That's right. And he has full access to HIS powers, not "The powers of his underlings."

If I made a thread "George Bush vs. John Kerry in a boxing match", you couldn't say "Bush has an army, so he wins" because it's JUST him.

Originally posted by King Kandy
That's right. And he has full access to HIS powers, not "The powers of his underlings."

If I made a thread "George Bush vs. John Kerry in a boxing match", you couldn't say "Bush has an army, so he wins" because it's JUST him. Do you realize what "His powers" means?

What you're doing would be tatamount to denying a summoner, that which they summon. Because clearly the abilities of the summoner are not the ability of the summoned.

If his power is derived from other beings, they'd still get that power in these matches. Flash's power is derived from the speedforce. regardless of the setiing he still gets access to the speed force.

If LT's powers are derived from his underlings guess what...


That's right...


2=2

And... I've yet to see proof that his powers are dependant on his authority.

Originally posted by King Kandy
And... I've yet to see proof that his powers are dependant on his authority. Then why are you arguing about it?

It doesn't matter what the source of his powers are... most likely being TOAA anyway... but he gets them.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Obviously you didn't get what creshook was trying to illustrate. You probably wouldn't. It's for the intelligent.
His point is moot. He said Classic MM was second to TOAA back then and that LT is second to TOAA now. That is absolutely false. MM was the second most powerful being in Marvel back then, Beyonder was the most powerful. There was no mention of TOAA back then. So his laughable 2=2 equation "fails".

Originally posted by Air Legend
His point is moot. He said Classic MM was second to TOAA back then and that LT is second to TOAA now. That is absolutely false. MM was the second most powerful being in Marvel back then, Beyonder was the most powerful. There was no mention of TOAA back then. So his laughable 2=2 equation "fails".

NOw you question Cresh? One of the best posters here? You should hang your head in shame. IN the manner that you do? So rude.

So since TOAA was never mentioned he didn't exist?

So tell me, who retconned MM and beyonder into their current stations?

ermm

Should we even get into the fact that a retcon means that they were in continuity ALWAYS the power level they currently are?

Meaning that classic MM and Classic Beyonder technically don't exist?

So who wins between LT and nothing? LT because he can destroy the nothing by creating somethin in its place.

Originally posted by Creshosk
So since TOAA was never mentioned he didn't exist?

The point is not whether or not TOAA existed, the point is what the writers wanted to convey as to how powerful CB and CMM were at that time.
If we want to go and assume that TOAA existed then I see where we run into problems with LT. If TOAA existed then how could Beyonder be above LT as LT is empowered by TOAA and TOAA is supposed to be exactly that, THE ONE ABOVE ALL.

Originally posted by Creshosk
So tell me, who retconned MM and beyonder into their current stations?

ermm

Should we even get into the fact that a retcon means that they were in continuity ALWAYS the power level they currently are?

The writers retconned them. I don't see why you need to make this point. Different writers have different viewpoints and ideas about what characters can and can not do, much liked the varied viewpoints in these forums.


Originally posted by Creshosk
Meaning that classic MM and Classic Beyonder technically don't exist?

So who wins between LT and nothing? LT because he can destroy the nothing by creating somethin in its place.

Classic MM and Classic Beyonder do exist, they exist in the comics that they were created in. Currently they exist differently than when they started, hence people differentiating between Classic and Current versions of both characters. It is same thing with the several versions of any character like Superman.

If you don't think that CB or CMM are as strong as others fine, that is your opinion and I have no problem with that. However, don't start saying that they don't exist when they do in comics that were some of the best-selling comics in their day.

Originally posted by Cubicks
The point is not whether or not TOAA existed, the point is what the writers wanted to convey as to how powerful CB and CMM were at that time.
If we want to go and assume that TOAA existed then I see where we run into problems with LT. If TOAA existed then how could Beyonder be above LT as LT is empowered by TOAA and TOAA is supposed to be exactly that, THE ONE ABOVE ALL. At the time it would have been "Because TOAA chose to have it that way obviously" now its "Beyonder and Molecule man have always existed at the present levels. The comics depicting otherwise are not in continuity and there fore shouldn't count.".

Originally posted by Cubicks
The writers retconned them. I don't see why you need to make this point. Different writers have different viewpoints and ideas about what characters can and can not do, much liked the varied viewpoints in these forums. So When did TOAA come into existence?

Obviously when the writers choose to... but storywise what made them not as powerful if they still exist? And Storywise when did TOAA come into existence?

Originally posted by Cubicks
Classic MM and Classic Beyonder do exist, they exist in the comics that they were created in. Currently they exist differently than when they started, hence people differentiating between Classic and Current versions of both characters. It is same thing with the several versions of any character like Superman.So Storywise where did they go?

Originally posted by Cubicks
If you don't think that CB or CMM are as strong as others fine, that is your opinion and I have no problem with that. However, don't start saying that they don't exist when they do in comics that were some of the best-selling comics in their day. They don't exist. That's the nature of the retcon. Storywise, those comics never happened. Storywise they never existed.

Originally posted by Creshosk
At the time it would have been "Because TOAA chose to have it that way obviously" now its "Beyonder and Molecule man have always existed at the present levels. The comics depicting otherwise are not in continuity and there fore shouldn't count.".

So When did TOAA come into existence?

Obviously when the writers choose to... but storywise what made them not as powerful if they still exist? And Storywise when did TOAA come into existence?

So Storywise where did they go?

They don't exist. That's the nature of the retcon. Storywise, those comics never happened. Storywise they never existed.

I actually understand your points, but i have no problem with refering to characters that have been retconned as long as it is in the opening post, obviously i dont make threads like that,but i dont wish they were not made

Retconned or not LT wins

Originally posted by Creshosk
At the time it would have been "Because TOAA chose to have it that way obviously" now its "Beyonder and Molecule man have always existed at the present levels. The comics depicting otherwise are not in continuity and there fore shouldn't count.".

So When did TOAA come into existence?

Obviously when the writers choose to... but storywise what made them not as powerful if they still exist? And Storywise when did TOAA come into existence?

So Storywise where did they go?

They don't exist. That's the nature of the retcon. Storywise, those comics never happened. Storywise they never existed.

Simply put, they were what the writers wanted them to be in that series and I will leave that at that.

You and I are not in a comic book storyline having this argument, I know you know where we are so I won't patronize you with being a smartass or asking rhetorical questions. Do they exist now as they did then? No. Whether or not they exist NOW in comic continuity is really not the issue, they existed because we have the comics to show for it and at that time and place they were depicted as Number 1 and Number 2 in the Marvel Universe.

This thread isn't MM versus CURRENT LT, it is CLASSIC MM versus CURRENT LT, much like there are other threads like Pre-Crisis Superman versus whoever and Superman versus whoever. They mean the same Superman at two different power levels.

Originally posted by Cubicks
Simply put, they were what the writers wanted them to be in that series and I will leave that at that.

You and I are not in a comic book storyline having this argument, I know you know where we are so I won't patronize you with being a smartass or asking rhetorical questions. Do they exist now as they did then? No. Whether or not they exist NOW in comic continuity is really not the issue, they existed because we have the comics to show for it and at that time and place they were depicted as Number 1 and Number 2 in the Marvel Universe.

This thread isn't MM versus CURRENT LT, it is CLASSIC MM versus CURRENT LT, much like there are other threads like Pre-Crisis Superman versus whoever and Superman versus whoever. They mean the same Superman at two different power levels.

You also must realize that since there are two versions of the retconned characters, that would mean that thier relative positions only count to the LT as depicted in the Retconned stories and NOT the LT that has always been 2nd only to God. You can't use the LT that exist outside of the story as a measuring stick of Classic MM or beyonder's power.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
You also must realize that since there are two versions of the retconned characters, that would mean that thier relative positions only count to the LT as depicted in the Retconned stories and NOT the LT that has always been 2nd only to God. You can't use the LT that exist outside of the story as a measuring stick of Classic MM or beyonder's power.

I don't use LT as the measuring stick. I go by what the intent was of the writers at the time.
I think that your thread raises an important question about comparing any retcon character to any non-retcon character.

Originally posted by Creshosk
So since TOAA was never mentioned he didn't exist?

Never said that. I just pointed out your fallacies. If you want to include TOAA in this thread, to make your ridiculous 2=2 argument valid, PR Beyonder would have to be TOAA. If you don't believe that, then Classic MM would be third to TOAA, not second, and LT would be fourth and so on. Thus, 2=2 would not apply.

The thing is that PR MM was more powerful than the LT who has never been retconned. But because MM was retconned, the LT's only superior is TOAA because the retcon makes it as if the events never occurred. Had the retcon never happened to Classic Beyonder and Classic Molecule Man, the bio for the LT would not be the same. However, when a thread states the pre-retcon before the name, we go by the pre-retcon character.

Classic MM wins in a curbstomp.

Originally posted by Air Legend
Never said that. I just pointed out your fallacies. If you want to include TOAA in this thread, to make your ridiculous 2=2 argument valid, PR Beyonder would have to be TOAA. If you don't believe that, then Classic MM would be third to TOAA, not second, and LT would be fourth and so on. Thus, 2=2 would not apply.

The thing is that PR MM was more powerful than the LT who has never been retconned. But because MM was retconned, the LT's only superior is TOAA because the retcon makes it as if the events never occurred. Had the retcon never happened to Classic Beyonder and Classic Molecule Man, the bio for the LT would not be the same. However, when a thread states the pre-retcon before the name, we go by the pre-retcon character.

Classic MM wins in a curbstomp.

Your logic is as faulty as this post.

Let me enlighten you. The beyonder wasn't the one above all becuz he wasn't the creator of the marvel multiverse. sure he was more powerful than they were, but he wasn't god. He wasn't omnicient like the one above all is either. He wasn't in control. He was a creation of the one above all like everyone else. Given his power by the one above all.

Now YOu can't compare the LT to the classic molecule man with out realizing that becuz the story was retconned, that means it's a totally seperate story from any other stories dealing with the LT. SO you in fact have Two lt's. One that was in the retconned story, and the current LT. Based upon feats and displays of power, The current LT bitches classic molecule man. Current LT has held megaverses in his hand and shaped them to his will. The best the molecule man did on panel was fix some dmg here and there around the multiverse. and face a depowered beyonder.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Your logic is as faulty as this post.

Let me enlighten you. The beyonder wasn't the one above all becuz he wasn't the creator of the marvel multiverse. sure he was more powerful than they were, but he wasn't god. He wasn't omnicient like the one above all is either. He wasn't in control. He was a creation of the one above all like everyone else. Given his power by the one above all.

Now YOu can't compare the LT to the classic molecule man with out realizing that becuz the story was retconned, that means it's a totally seperate story from any other stories dealing with the LT. SO you in fact have Two lt's. One that was in the retconned story, and the current LT. Based upon feats and displays of power, The current LT bitches classic molecule man. Current LT has held megaverses in his hand and shaped them to his will. The best the molecule man did on panel was fix some dmg here and there around the multiverse. and face a depowered beyonder.
This fails. When we prove that Classic MM is greater than LT, you say the LT has been retconned. When we prove the LT has never been retconned, you scream that the LT is greater. When everyone says Classic MM wins in another thread, you make this same damn thread: WHo wins teH curreNt Lt or claSic MM? dur

And I recommend reading Secret Wars II, issue #9 in this case, so you can get your facts straight.

Originally posted by Air Legend
This fails. When we prove that Classic MM is greater than LT, you say the LT has been retconned. When we prove the LT has never been retconned, you scream that the LT is greater. When everyone says Classic MM wins in another thread, you make this same damn thread: WHo wins teH curreNt Lt or claSic MM? dur

And I recommend reading Secret Wars II, issue #9 in this case, so you can get your facts straight.

I"m sure by now you are feeling rather upset becuz you aren't proving anything. The proof is on my side. Since there was a retconning of not just the characters, but the events as a dream, that would mean that the LT depicted in the Dream, is NOT the same LT you try and use as a measuring stick of power to amp the pre retconned characters. The only things the characters have to stand on is thier feats. Not thier positions. Since They only have positions relative to the characters with in the dream sequence. Not anyone OUTSIDE of the dream sequence. You lose.

Originally posted by Creshosk
So Storywise where did they go?

They don't exist. That's the nature of the retcon.
Storywise, those comics never happened.
Storywise they never existed.

I have to disagree here a bit Cresh, (atleast concerning Beyonder & MM - SS I-II)
the entire Secret Wars I & II saga tie-ins and all, is canon.
Everything Beyonder and MM did, was canon.

Now certain specifics were re-told:

Like Beyonder did beat up the Celestails,
but now in the retcon, the Celestials allowed him to win to ease his transition into awareness,
see ... its the same depiction on panel, but with a spin.

Another spin is,
Beyonder at the end of the saga created/became a Universe that was like an ocean,
in comparison with the Infinite Multiverse which was a drop of water.
That was spun into a Universe, but weaker than Eternity.

There's literally maybe 2 or 3 more occurances and/or statements
that were truly retconned,
everything else is official.

Also,
alot of characters came from the SS series and are still active today,
like,
Titania
Volcana
Spiderwoman
Spidey's Black suit/Venom/Carnage

to name a few.

As for the battle:


LT is second to the Toaa/god,
but just like Toaa/god allowed,

Reed to devise a machine that managed to used the LT's powers against the LT,
Rune defy the LT's ruling over the IG (it was impossible for Warlock)
Protege copy the LT's power,
Scathan becoming an equal to the LT,
Thanos to gain enough power to actually absorb the LT,

just like that,

Toaa/god (Jim Shooter & Al Milgrom at the time)
allowed Beyonder & MM to be more powerful than the LT.


So now and forever ------ Classic Beyonder & MM > LT

Originally posted by Mr Master
As for the battle:


LT is second to the Toaa/god,
but just like Toaa/god allowed,

Reed to devise a machine that managed to used the LT's powers against the LT,
Rune defy the LT's ruling over the IG (it was impossible for Warlock)
Protege copy the LT's power,
Scathan becoming an equal to the LT,
Thanos to gain enough power to actually absorb the LT,

just like that,

Toaa/god (Jim Shooter & Al Milgrom at the time)
allowed Beyonder & MM to be more powerful than the LT.


So now and forever ------ Classic Beyonder & MM > LT

UM, Master, How can now and forever they be beyond the LT when HE wasn't in that story? That LT only had rule over a multiverse. The LT I know has held two megaverses with in his hand. Megaverses that would have to be part of what once was the beyonder if you go by the pre ret story. No way to wiggle out of that.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
UM, Master, How can now and forever they be beyond the LT when HE wasn't in that story?
That LT only had rule over a multiverse.
The LT I know has held two megaverses with in his hand. Megaverses that would have to be part of what once was the beyonder if you go by the pre ret story. No way to wiggle out of that.

The LT had rule over all of Marvel then, as now,
but again, even the LT that has rule over the Omniverse Now,
got Reed putting a bfr on em,
got Protege copying his power,
got Scathan being presented as his equal or dare I say greater?
got Thanos gaining the power to erase him, and re-create him,
got LT bowing down to the final evolution of Mankind.

What are your excuses,
for all of these occurances depicted on panel and confirmed in bios?


I think Kubik said it best:

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/103/82354316ip2.th.jpg

"Scale is an illusion"

Originally posted by Mr Master
The LT had rule over all of Marvel then, as now,
but again, even the LT that has rule over the Omniverse Now,
got Reed putting a bfr on em,
got Protege copying his power,
got Scathan being presented as his equal or dare I say greater?
got Thanos gaining the power to erase him, and re-create him,
got LT bowing down to the final evolution of Mankind.

What are your excuses,
for all of these occurances depicted on panel and confirmed in bios?


I think Kubik said it best:

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/103/82354316ip2.th.jpg

"Scale is an illusion"

That would mean that Mxy who destroyed everything is at least equal to the classic beyonder then, since scale is nothing but an illusion. As for all of those showings, that means lil when comparing The LT of the omniverse, to the one of the multiverse. ANd if scale is an illusion, then the beyonder isn't all that hot shit since scale means nothing, and you so like to tout how his universe was so many times bigger than marvel. Scale is only an illusion when it suits your purposes.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Like Beyonder did beat up the Celestails,
but now in the retcon, the Celestials allowed him to win to ease his transition into awareness,
see ... its the same depiction on panel, but with a spin.and the one where he beat them up without them allowing him to ceased to exist when it was revealed that they allowed him to. IT made it so the version that beat them up without them allowing to like he never existed.


Revealing the puppetmaster destroys the illusion of there being an independant puppet.


Originally posted by Mr Master
Also,
alot of characters came from the SS series and are still active today,
like,
Titania
Volcana
Spiderwoman
Spidey's Black suit/Venom/Carnage

to name a few. I didn't say those other things didn't exist. just the "pre-retcon" didn't exist. As that's the nature of the retcon. in continuity, they were always at the station they are now.

LT was retconned when it was revealled that he was second only to TOAA. A retcon doesn't always have to be like some major announcment. It doesn't have to be anything big or fancy.

When new information is revealed that adds onto or replaces the previous information, that previous perception based on the previous information has to change.

IF like the case above you LT is revealed to have let MM do what he did. it means that MM was never actually greater that LT. Sort of like an april fools joke revealed to say "I tricked you" LT was always greater than MM in continuity.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
That would mean that Mxy who destroyed everything is at least equal to the classic beyonder then, since scale is nothing but an illusion. As for all of those showings, that means lil when comparing The LT of the omniverse, to the one of the multiverse. ANd if scale is an illusion, then the beyonder isn't all that hot shit since scale means nothing, and you so like to tout how his universe was so many times bigger than marvel. Scale is only an illusion when it suits your purposes.

Jeesh Nvr, you're insane dogs.

Originally posted by Creshosk
LT was always greater than MM in continuity.

I agree, but not between 84' & 90'

Originally posted by Creshosk
and the one where he beat them up without them allowing him to ceased to exist when it was revealed that they allowed him to. IT made it so the version that beat them up without them allowing to like he never existed.


Revealing the puppetmaster destroys the illusion of there being an independant puppet.


I didn't say those other things didn't exist. just the "pre-retcon" didn't exist. As that's the nature of the retcon. in continuity, they were always at the station they are now.

LT was retconned when it was revealled that he was second only to TOAA. A retcon doesn't always have to be like some major announcment. It doesn't have to be anything big or fancy.

When new information is revealed that adds onto or replaces the previous information, that previous perception based on the previous information has to change.

IF like the case above you LT is revealed to have let MM do what he did. it means that MM was never actually greater that LT. Sort of like an april fools joke revealed to say "I tricked you" LT was always greater than MM in continuity.

This is just terrible logic. If the writers state and show MM being greater than the LT, then MM is greater than the LT.

Originally posted by Mr Master
As for the battle:


LT is second to the Toaa/god,
but just like Toaa/god allowed,

Reed to devise a machine that managed to used the LT's powers against the LT,
Rune defy the LT's ruling over the IG (it was impossible for Warlock)
Protege copy the LT's power,
Scathan becoming an equal to the LT,
Thanos to gain enough power to actually absorb the LT,

just like that,

Toaa/god (Jim Shooter & Al Milgrom at the time)
allowed Beyonder & MM to be more powerful than the LT.


So now and forever ------ Classic Beyonder & MM > LT As always mr master comes in here and clears things up. Before this story and since this story Lt has been 2nd in command. He hasnt grown in power but has always been number 2 outside a few stories and this was one of them.

Originally posted by Air Legend
This is just terrible logic. If the writers state and show MM being greater than the LT, then MM is greater than the LT. You are correct. If we are taking into consideration this MM is more powerful than the Lt. Currently Lt whips his ass but under this special thread circumstances Molecule Man wins.

Originally posted by quanchi112
As always mr master comes in here and clears things up. Before this story and since this story Lt has been 2nd in command. He hasnt grown in power but has always been number 2 outside a few stories and this was one of them.

He hasn't grown in power and yet he holds two megaverses in his hands where there once where no megaverses. He also has always been superior to the beyonder. Hence the retcon.

Originally posted by quanchi112
As always mr master comes in here and clears things up. Before this story and since this story Lt has been 2nd in command. He hasnt grown in power but has always been number 2 outside a few stories and this was one of them. So for this story he "held back" or something to allow the other two their day in the sun?

And for this fight he's not going to "hold back"?

What does that right there tell you?

"I stepped down from my number two spot for that story, but I'm not stepping down this time."

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
He hasn't grown in power and yet he holds two megaverses in his hands where there once where no megaverses. He also has always been superior to the beyonder. Hence the retcon. How has he grown in power since the retcon? Just becuz the marvel universe expaned in theory doesnt mean he grew in power. Prove he grew in power? Remember the marvel universe expanding isnt proof.

Originally posted by Creshosk
So for this story he "held back" or something to allow the other two their day in the sun?

And for this fight he's not going to "hold back"?

What does that right there tell you?

"I stepped down from my number two spot for that story, but I'm not stepping down this time." He couldnt stop the Beyonder the only one who could was the Molecule Man in that story. Where do you get this he held back stuff anyways?

Originally posted by quanchi112
He couldnt stop the Beyonder the only one who could was the Molecule Man in that story. Where do you get this he held back stuff anyways?
The Molecule man was no where near as powerful as the beyonder in that story. He even says so himself. He says, that The beyonder is as far beyond me as I am beyond you, talking to captain america.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
The Molecule man was no where near as powerful as the beyonder in that story. He even says so himself. He says, that The beyonder is as far beyond me as I am beyond you, talking to captain america. I never said he was I said he was the only one who had a chance. Beyonder>Lt from that story.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
He hasn't grown in power and yet he holds two megaverses in his hands where there once where no megaverses. He also has always been superior to the beyonder. Hence the retcon.

Actually Nvr may be onto something, this is something I just realized, and I may be wrong, --but--

Living Tribunal absorbed Protege after Protege got muzzled by Scathan, if that's the case, then Living Tribunal's power "post-Protege" would have increased over what it was pre-Protege, wouldn't it?

At least that's what came to my mind when re-studying the Protege incident. I'm not saying that's the case for certain, but it's something that popped in my head when looking over their battle again.

Originally posted by quanchi112
How has he grown in power since the retcon? Just becuz the marvel universe expaned in theory doesnt mean he grew in power. Prove he grew in power? Remember the marvel universe expanding isnt proof.

It's really simple. The beyonder was everything outside of the marvel verse. Which would be what is now the omniverse. The only thing the beyonder wasn't was the multiverse. To which The LT wasn't even the most powerful being. Now the LT sits in judgement over the omniverse, Which would include everything the Beyonder Was. The LT sits OVER everything the beyonder was AND the Spine of the Marvel U. Thus is power and authority is greater. And yes, His power comes directly from his authority.

Originally posted by Kutulu
Actually Nvr may be onto something, this is something I just realized, and I may be wrong, --but--

Living Tribunal absorbed Protege after Protege got muzzled by Scathan, if that's the case, then Living Tribunal's power "post-Protege" would have increased over what it was pre-Protege, wouldn't it?

At least that's what came to my mind when re-studying the Protege incident. That happens in the future and is speculative at best. That story tells us that Scathan is in Lt's leagues as well.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
It's really simple. The beyonder was everything outside of the marvel verse. Which would be what is now the omniverse. The only thing the beyonder wasn't was the multiverse. To which The LT wasn't even the most powerful being. Now the LT sits in judgement over the omniverse, Which would include everything the Beyonder Was. The LT sits OVER everything the beyonder was AND the Spine of the Marvel U. Thus is power and authority is greater. And yes, His power comes directly from his authority. No faulty logic all the way across the board. Again you are trying to equate power with how many universes he oversees. It doesnt work that way. In that story Beyonder was all that and a bag of chips the only being tha could defeat him imo is Thanos with the heart. They were by far the tw most powerful comic book character beings on panel. I dont want to hear anything about the kirby avatar or any real life people either.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That happens in the future and is speculative at best. That story tells us that Scathan is in Lt's leagues as well.

There is no such thing as the Future or the past to the LT. Just moments and incidents to be studied and judge.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
There is no such thing as the Future or the past to the LT. Just moments and incidents to be studied and judge. Ok then now we bring in Scathan here. It can argued he demonstrated more power in this arc than the Lt. He stopped the threat here not Lt.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
He hasn't grown in power and yet he holds two megaverses in his hands where there once where no megaverses.

Beyonder was the embodiment of a Universe that was far greater than two megaverses,
Beyonder was Infinite,
his energy continued to create reality across the infinite beyond:

http://img283.imageshack.us/img283/6076/buni4xn9.th.jpg
"Meeting NO resistance in the infinite beyond"
................................................................................

That was one Universe,
to think that this expanded even further into a Multiverse:

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4372/beyonderismultikh8.th.jpg
"Beyonder, the entity that embodied all the substance of Another Multiverse"

Ouch.
.......................................................................

The Molecule Man was able to challenge that dogs, think about it,
MM went toe to toe with the Beyonder and held his own for a while.

He lost of course but still, it speaks volumes,
Beyonder even admitted that for a second, Owen had a chance:

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/441/mm4nw9.th.jpg

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
He also has always been superior to the beyonder. Hence the retcon.

Not between 84' & 90'

In 1984 during the first Secret Wars series,
Owen Reece unlocked his potential,
and became the most powerful being in the Multiverse,
second only to the Beyonder.

In 1990 MM was de-powered in the retcon,
but MM was always very powerful, Multiversal in fact even in his Post-retcon faze.

In fact,
the LT himself said
that POST-Retcon Owen Reece is one of the most powerful beings in All Creation:

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/4217/mmlm0.th.jpg

And that's his passive personality,

his other personality (Molecule Man) dwarfs that when he's released

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/60/evilmmak8.th.jpg
http://img173.imageshack.us/img173/3382/evilmm2mu1.th.jpg

Originally posted by Mr Master
Beyonder was the embodiment of a Universe that was far greater than two megaverses,
Beyonder was Infinite,
his energy continued to create reality across the infinite beyond:

http://img283.imageshack.us/img283/6076/buni4xn9.th.jpg
"Meeting NO resistance in the infinite beyond"
................................................................................

That was one Universe,
to think that this expanded even further into a Multiverse:

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4372/beyonderismultikh8.th.jpg
"Beyonder, the entity that embodied all the substance of Another Multiverse"

Ouch.
.......................................................................

The Molecule Man was able to challenge that dogs, think about it,
MM went toe to toe with the Beyonder and held his own for a while.

He lost of course but still, it speaks volumes,
Beyonder even admitted that for a second, Owen had a chance:

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/441/mm4nw9.th.jpg



Not between 84' & 90'

In 1984 during the first Secret Wars series,
Owen Reece unlocked his potential,
and became the most powerful being in the Multiverse,
second only to the Beyonder.

In 1990 MM was de-powered in the retcon,
but MM was always very powerful, Multiversal in fact even in his Post-retcon faze.

In fact,
the LT himself said
that POST-Retcon Owen Reece is one of the most powerful beings in All Creation:

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/4217/mmlm0.th.jpg

And that's his passive personality,

his other personality (Molecule Man) dwarfs that when he's released

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/60/evilmmak8.th.jpg
http://img173.imageshack.us/img173/3382/evilmm2mu1.th.jpg Nice ownage and it also backs up my claim that MM was the only one who had a chance against the Beyonder.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He couldnt stop the Beyonder the only one who could was the Molecule Man in that story. Where do you get this he held back stuff anyways? Honoring the nature of the retcon.

The retcon says "It was never really that way." That's the nature of what a retcon is.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Honoring the nature of the retcon.

The retcon says "It was never really that way." That's the nature of what a retcon is. Which is why it is PRE-RETCON MM.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Which is why it is PRE-RETCON MM.

Precisely.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Which is why it is PRE-RETCON MM. A characer which theoretically doesn't exist. The retcon made it so that the characters actions were like an illusion. It didn't really happen that way.

LT now is fully backed by TOAA. To say that MM wins is to use the pre-mm retcon LT, which is ignoring the fact that its current LT is the one in the fight and not pre mm retcon lt.

Originally posted by Creshosk
A characer which theoretically doesn't exist. The retcon made it so that the characters actions were like an illusion. It didn't really happen that way.

LT now is fully backed by TOAA. To say that MM wins is to use the pre-mm retcon LT, which is ignoring the fact that its current LT is the one in the fight and not pre mm retcon lt.

That is what I been saying for like years since I been on KMC.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Honoring the nature of the retcon.

The retcon says "It was never really that way." That's the nature of what a retcon is. Yes but according to this thread we are honoring the story in question. This is preretcon.

Originally posted by Creshosk
A characer which theoretically doesn't exist. The retcon made it so that the characters actions were like an illusion. It didn't really happen that way.

LT now is fully backed by TOAA. To say that MM wins is to use the pre-mm retcon LT, which is ignoring the fact that its current LT is the one in the fight and not pre mm retcon lt.
Current LT is not fully backed by TOAA. His only superior is TOAA.

Classic MM wins in a curbstomp.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes but according to this thread we are honoring the story in question. This is preretcon.

Not that hard to understand.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
That is what I been saying for like years since I been on KMC. But no one have proven that the Lt is more powerful today than he was when the story came out.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes but according to this thread we are honoring the story in question. This is preretcon.
NO, We are also honoring The CURRENT LT. Preretcon doesn't take precisdent over current LT. in this thread they are treated as equal.

Originally posted by quanchi112
But no one have proven that the Lt is more powerful today than he was when the story came out. Exactly.

The LT was never retconned...

Originally posted by quanchi112
But no one have proven that the Lt is more powerful today than he was when the story came out.

I already did. He is now fully backed by the TOAA. he wasn't back then. There was no TOAA back then. He also has held mega verses in his hand. Back then, he wasn't even the most poweful being in the multiverse.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
NO, We are also honoring The CURRENT LT. Preretcon doesn't take precisdent over current LT. in this thread they are treated as equal.
The current LT is not backed up by TOAA. His only superior is TOAA, however.

Well, people around here don't fully understand what a retcon is.

People could argue that pre-retcon Jean Grey ate a sun. But that's ignoring the fact that the retcon established that as a seperate character which was never really Jean. It was ALWAYS(due to the retcon) a seperate entity when it was Dark Phoenix. The Real jean was in the ocean. So there is no (Pre-retcon jean grey ate a sun) as that never happened in continuity.

Like here. The retcon establishes that the character was never really that powerful. I don't care what the reason is, be it that LT or TOAA let him at that point in time. Or that it was an illusion, or a dream or some mass drug induced delerium. It's not important the why. Just the fact that the retcon happened means that it didn't really happen the first time around the way people think it did.

In otherwords those that argue for the pre-retcon MM not only ignore the fact that Pre MM Retcon LT is not in this fight. But they were duped by the illusion/dream/trick/drug induced stupor.

Just as there is no "pre retcon-jean grey who ate a sun" there is no "pre retcon MM who was higher than current LT" It never happened.

Originally posted by Air Legend
The current LT is not backed up by TOAA. His only superior is TOAA, however.

Actually he is. It's kinda explained that way in Thanos the End. It shows that the one above all willed everything to happen, meaning thanos could have defeated the LT if TOAA hasn't manipulated the events as such. Being as it may, no one can defeat the LT unless the one above all deams it so.

Originally posted by Air Legend
The current LT is not backed up by TOAA. His only superior is TOAA, however. TOAA and not preretcon MM.

Pre retcon MM is NOT LT's superior.

Originally posted by Creshosk
TOAA and not preretcon MM.

Pre retcon MM is NOT LT's superior.
That's what I meant. I forgot to say IT and used he instead.

Current LT (which is the same LT) is not fully backed up by TOAA. TOAA is shown as LT's only superior, however.

Classic MM wins this in a stomp.

Originally posted by Air Legend
That's what I meant. I forgot to say IT and used he instead.

Current LT (which is the same LT) is not fully backed up by TOAA. TOAA is shown as LT's only superior, however.

Classic MM wins this in a stomp.
You say that, but the only thing that the classic MM has is his position as mentioned against the Lt. But you fail to realize, the LT wasn't IN THAT Story. It's not the LT. Thus you can only count the actual feats. The LT beats Both the beyonder and the MM in any form they have EVER taken.

Originally posted by Air Legend
That's what I meant. I forgot to say IT and used he instead.

Current LT (which is the same LT) is not fully backed up by TOAA. TOAA is shown as LT's only superior, however.

Classic MM wins this in a stomp. Again you're using the pre mm retcon toaa and not the toaa of today.

What's the matter can't abide by the threads stipulations, and thus the forum rules to win?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Again you're using the pre mm retcon toaa and not the toaa of today.

What's the matter can't abide by the threads stipulations, and thus the forum rules to win?
Are you saying there are two TOAAs?

Originally posted by Air Legend
Are you saying there are two TOAAs?

Are there different writers today than then?

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Exactly. Most can see this.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Are there different writers today than then?
You yourself say that TOAA is not the real world writers, so what are you trying to prove?

Besides, current LT is not backed up by TOAA.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Most can see this. Ad populem. Wolverine beat Lobo due to the popular vote. At the time most people thought Wolverine would win.

Originally posted by Air Legend
You yourself say that TOAA is not the real world writers, so what are you trying to prove?

Besides, current LT is not backed up by TOAA.

I've already proved that he is.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Well, people around here don't fully understand what a retcon is.

People could argue that pre-retcon Jean Grey ate a sun. But that's ignoring the fact that the retcon established that as a seperate character which was never really Jean. It was ALWAYS(due to the retcon) a seperate entity when it was Dark Phoenix. The Real jean was in the ocean. So there is no (Pre-retcon jean grey ate a sun) as that never happened in continuity.

Like here. The retcon establishes that the character was never really that powerful. I don't care what the reason is, be it that LT or TOAA let him at that point in time. Or that it was an illusion, or a dream or some mass drug induced delerium. It's not important the why. Just the fact that the retcon happened means that it didn't really happen the first time around the way people think it did.

In otherwords those that argue for the pre-retcon MM not only ignore the fact that Pre MM Retcon LT is not in this fight. But they were duped by the illusion/dream/trick/drug induced stupor.

Just as there is no "pre retcon-jean grey who ate a sun" there is no "pre retcon MM who was higher than current LT" It never happened.
That's exactly how I feel...

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
I've already proved that he is.
Actualy you used shoddy speculation. It wasn't proof.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
I've already proved that he is.
Uh no you haven't.
Mr Master gave you plenty of examples, I'll just repeat some.

Reed and LT
Scathan and LT
Thanos HOTI and LT
Classic Beyonder/MM and LT

Originally posted by King Kandy
Actualy you used shoddy speculation. It wasn't proof.

The only true defeat I can see on Panel of the LT was by God's own creation. That has to signify that nothing can pwn the Lt truly but TOAA. At any rate, The LT absorbed that other guy's power into his own, So he's at least double what he was anyway.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Ad populem. Wolverine beat Lobo due to the popular vote. At the time most people thought Wolverine would win. No Im sure more people liked Wolverine more. People that read and follow both characters Im sure were the minority in regards to the total number of votes. Im sure it was mostly people who thought wolverine was cool with little to no knowledge of Lobo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No Im sure more people liked Wolverine more. People that read and follow both characters Im sure were the minority in regards to the total number of votes. Im sure it was mostly people who thought wolverine was cool with little to no knowledge of Lobo.
You are saying the same thing he is.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
I already did. He is now fully backed by the TOAA. he wasn't back then. There was no TOAA back then. He also has held mega verses in his hand. Back then, he wasn't even the most poweful being in the multiverse. Actually, he was second to MM, since technically Beyonder isn't from the Multiverse, and seeing as there was only a Multiverse, of course he could not show a feat like holding two megaverses.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Actually, he was second to MM, since technically Beyonder isn't from the Multiverse, and seeing as there was only a Multiverse, of course he could not show a feat like holding two megaverses.

That's the point. There were no mega verses becuz the beyonder was everything outside the multiverse. Now the LT sits OVER everything that the beyonder was. Get it?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
The only true defeat I can see on Panel of the LT was by God's own creation. That has to signify that nothing can pwn the Lt truly but TOAA. At any rate, The LT absorbed that other guy's power into his own, So he's at least double what he was anyway.
LT has lost to more then THOTU.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No Im sure more people liked Wolverine more. People that read and follow both characters Im sure were the minority in regards to the total number of votes. Im sure it was mostly people who thought wolverine was cool with little to no knowledge of Lobo. ANd? Most people said Wolverine wins. So, Wolverine won.

Isn't ad populem great? If enough people believe it it has to be true!

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
You are saying the same thing he is. But in here its different. This isnt the general public. The worst person in here knows more about this than the general joe shcmoe out there who likes wolverine becuz he smokes cigars and kicks ass.

Originally posted by King Kandy
LT has lost to more then THOTU.

I said the only true defeat. as in absolute defeat by the power of another.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
The only true defeat I can see on Panel of the LT was by God's own creation. That has to signify that nothing can pwn the Lt truly but TOAA. At any rate, The LT absorbed that other guy's power into his own, So he's at least double what he was anyway.
And yet you give Michael, Lucifer, and Spectre the win over LT lmao. LT is fully backed by TOAA according to you, so LT would solo DC

Originally posted by quanchi112
But in here its different. Sham distinction. Popular opinion is popular opinion.

Originally posted by quanchi112
This isnt the general public. Who said anything about "the gernerla public? popular opinion is popular opinion regardless of how large the "popular" group is.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The worst person in here knows more about this than the general joe shcmoe out there who likes wolverine becuz he smokes cigars and kicks ass. popular opinion is still popular opinion regardless of who the populus is.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
That's the point. There were no mega verses becuz the beyonder was everything outside the multiverse. Now the LT sits OVER everything that the beyonder was. Get it? Yes, but it does not mean he himself has grown more powerful. PR Beyonder was much more powerful than LT, who has no proof he himself has grown stronger, you yourself has said countless times, he has never been retconned.

Originally posted by Air Legend
And yet you give Michael, Lucifer, and Spectre the win over LT lmao. LT is fully backed by TOAA according to you, so LT would solo DC

No. Michael is equal to the heart of the universe.

Lucifer cannot be defeated by pure power. He has to be beaten by will as well. The LT lacks in that area as shown in marvel the end.

Spectre is equal tot he LT to me.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Yes, but it does not mean he himself has grown more powerful. PR Beyonder was much more powerful than LT, who has no proof he himself has grown stronger, you yourself has said countless times, he has never been retconned.

Let me ask you something A king has 20 acres of land. a relative dies and leaves him 100 more acres. Now Someone wants to fight the king's army.

Is the king better to win with an army of 20 acres of land or an army who lives on 100 acres.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Let me ask you something A king has 20 acres of land. a relative dies and leaves him 100 more acres. Now Someone wants to fight the king's army.

Is the king better to win with an army of 20 acres of land or an army who lives on 100 acres.
But this isn't LT's army. It's LT.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Yes, but it does not mean he himself has grown more powerful. PR Beyonder was much more powerful than LT, No he wasn't. That's what the retcon means.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
who has no proof he himself has grown stronger, you yourself has said countless times, he has never been retconned. ACtually everyone effected by the retcon was retconned. The continuity of all the characters invovled were effected.

You don't have a retcon truly effect only one character get a paradox otherwise. Like saying a person goes back in time and kills their grandmother.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Let me ask you something A king has 20 acres of land. a relative dies and leaves him 100 more acres. Now Someone wants to fight the king's army.

Is the king better to win with an army of 20 acres of land or an army who lives on 100 acres. So this is the Marvel omniverse vs. LT? ROFL. This is LT, not LT and those he rules over.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
No. Michael is equal to the heart of the universe.

Lucifer cannot be defeated by pure power. He has to be beaten by will as well. The LT lacks in that area as shown in marvel the end.

Spectre is equal tot he LT to me.
This has to be the most retarded statement I've ever read.

Michael equal to the HOTI. LMGDFAO. Someone who has been physically beaten, taken hostage, and killed by Fenrir the Wolf equal to at the time Marvel's God. HAHAHHA the nerve.

LT can't beat Lucifer even though Lucifer has been physically beaten and mindraped. HAHAHA. Hell Thor can beat Lucifer if he got a BFR off.

Spectre equal to LT. A fully backed up by TOAA LT according to you. AHAHAHAHA. You fail.

Originally posted by Creshosk
No he wasn't. That's what the retcon means.

ACtually everyone effected by the retcon was retconned. The continuity of all the characters invovled were effected.

You don't have a retcon truly effect only one character get a paradox otherwise. Like saying a person goes back in time and kills their grandmother. 1. .........When I said "was", I was referring to before the retcon.

2. Can you provide solid proof of this? If you can, I will gladly concede.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
1. .........When I said "was", I was referring to before the retcon.Again discarding what a retcon is.

Tell me, what do you think a retcon is?

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
2. Can you provide solid proof of this? If you can, I will gladly concede.

You want me to provide you with solid proof of going back in time and killing your own grand mother would be a paradox?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Again discarding what a retcon is.

Tell me, what do you think a retcon is?



You want me to provide you with solid proof of going back in time and killing your own grand mother would be a paradox? 1. Well, when in an area of fiction, certain events were alterred for whatever reason to change an overall story, in example Beyonder and MM's power levels.

2. Lol, no, provide proof that everything was affected by the retcon.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
So this is the Marvel omniverse vs. LT? ROFL. This is LT, not LT and those he rules over.
The LT's power comes directly from his authority. Even he says he cannot rule unless all three faces are in agreement. That means it's based upon his authority.

Cresh do you know what the word "pre-retcon" means?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
The LT's power comes directly from his authority. Even he says he cannot rule unless all three faces are in agreement. That means it's based upon his authority. How does that mean his Authority=power?

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
How does that mean his Authority=power?

Are you serious? I have authority over my house. Anyone who comes in my crib and acts a fool will feel my authority. Even if I have to call the police. It's my authority. My power. When the police come, I'm theone in power. The LT's power acts like laws. The Us has authority over states, states have authority over cities, cities have authority over communities.