"Obi-Wan . . . there . . . is good in him. I know there is ... still." OMG!

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darthsith19
When Padme says there is still good in him, not there was[/b[ good in him, that means she knew he was still alive! But how, that's impossible that she'd have known that he survived.

@st
Obi didnt say left out that he cut him into pieces, so why would she think he was dead? roll eyes (sarcastic)

darthsith19
So when she asked "Where's Anakin? Is he all right?" You think he just didn't answer her? The scene cut a few seconds later. She knew he came to kill Anakin, and that he returned to her while Anakin did not. She also could have found out that he died because of the sad look Obi-Wan gave her.

Sesse
"It seems with your love, you betrayed him..."

"I. I couldn't have. He was a jedi! I felt it!"

"NNNnnnnnnnnnnggghhhhhhh!"

"Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!"

General G
Originally posted by darthsith19
So when she asked "Where's Anakin? Is he all right?" You think he just didn't answer her? The scene cut a few seconds later. She knew he came to kill Anakin, and that he returned to her while Anakin did not. She also could have found out that he died because of the sad look Obi-Wan gave her.

Why would he tell her??? That would make no sense, she is in enough pain and has to deliver twins, she doesn't need the grief at that time.

darthsith19
Originally posted by General G
Why would he tell her??? That would make no sense, she is in enough pain and has to deliver twins, she doesn't need the grief at that time.
She asked if he was all right, when he didn't answer what do you think she thought? "Oh, that must mean he's okay!" Yeah right, she asked him and he didn't respond, gave her a sad look, and she knew he was going there to kill him. "You're going to kill him, aren't you?" She'd have to be dumb as hell to think he wasn't dead.

queeq
I dunno... It doesn't really matter, Padme knew she'd lost Anakin either way.

Darth Dean
Maybe Padme had a little Force in her and it was giving her insight???

queeq
*sigh* No.

travesty87
Y not? if she cud sense that there is still good in him obviously she cud sense that he is still alive...she senses things lol

queeq
She should have sensed Anakin was no good then.

General G
Originally posted by darthsith19
She asked if he was all right, when he didn't answer what do you think she thought? "Oh, that must mean he's okay!" Yeah right, she asked him and he didn't respond, gave her a sad look, and she knew he was going there to kill him. "You're going to kill him, aren't you?" She'd have to be dumb as hell to think he wasn't dead.

No, then the pain of her baby trying to get out made her forget.

queeq
Babies.

Rogue Jedi
Maybe it's bcause she knew Annie so well, inside and out, and was convinced that there was no way he was unsalvageable.

queeq
She certainly knew his red, curly hair.

Rogue Jedi
yes, her knowledge of his hair certainly helped. haermm

queeq
And Annie could sing too. Maybe we get to see that in the SE.

Rogue Jedi
NOOOOOOOOOOOO.

queeq
YEEEEEEEEES... evil face

Rogue Jedi
dude, I would have up and walked out.......PUKING.

queeq
Didn't you already? wink

Rogue Jedi
nah, I stuck it out like a true fan. I just shoved popcorn in my ears.

queeq
And singing is on a frequency popcorn can't withstand?

Rogue Jedi
it's MAGIK popcorn.

queeq
So, singing would be no problem to you.

Rogue Jedi
I'd sooner see Anakin do a Jedi chili dog on her.

queeq
We can arrange that.

Rogue Jedi
and the PG 13 rating'd be out the window.

queeq
Finally.

Rogue Jedi
Episode 3, X rated?

queeq
More the of "It's because I am so in love with you' lines....?

Rogue Jedi
nothing wrong with professing their love, but come on, man.

queeq
THere was definately something wrong with them expressing it.

Rogue Jedi
the way they went about it? yes.

queeq
Very.

Rogue Jedi
especially the scene where they are sitting on the couch in AOTC.......I LOL'd.

queeq
*shudder*

Rogue Jedi
and the scene before their execution.....hard to watch.

General G
Most of it was...reading the past posts brought some bad thoughts.

queeq
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
and the scene before their execution.....hard to watch.

Entrance into the arena shot was nice... but stolen from Gladiator.

General G
The dialogue ruined it, I didn't even notice the Gladiator reference until now. Good movie.

queeq
Very.

Well I did... I love the entry shot, not for it's originality or great writing or anything. It just works, like it did so well originally in Gladiator. Ridley did well and Lucas copied well.

General G
Hehe

Lucas has many references.

queeq
Oh yes.

General G
Shall we name them?

queeq
Long list.

General G
I have time.

queeq
Go ahead then.

General G
WWII

queeq
Old...

General G
Well, gotta start from the beginning.

JackieCD
He was lost either way.

queeq
hehehe

General G
That was rude...

queeq
But funny.

singe_101
In Episode V, when Obi-Wan says that Luke is their only hope but Yoda says that there is another, do yo guys think that means Leia or that Anakin is not entirely lost, at least enough to not kill Luke and kill the Emperor instead?

Why would Obi-Wan not count Leia? There are female Jedi all over the place. Was it just because she had such a pampered upbringing and didn't ride around shooting things like Luke?

queeq
Ooops... he detected that plot hole. We better teach him the secret handshake.

General G
laughing out loud

You do it this time.

singe_101
I can't claim it as my idea, I haven't watched The Empire Strikes Back in a while.

I just though it was interesting and couldn't decide which way. It was just about the time Lucas could be dropping a hint either way. Leia is definitely "another" but does she do enough? To me Anakin does more, as was prophesied. The force is balanced when he sacrifices himself to eliminate Palpatine, that and Luke brings some humanity and feelings to the Jedi order.

Ben telling Luke to trust his feelings in Ep 4 and beyond, is that knowing Luke can't be a stoic Jedi and he doesn't want to stifle him? He says "Trust your feelings" a lot. Or are feelings like force instincts and not emotions? They do tell him to be careful about his emotions

queeq
Well, originally Luke would have a twin sister but it wasn't supposed to be Leia. After defeating Vader (and not the Emperor yet) Luke would first go in serach of his lost twin sister and then gear up to defeat the Evil Emperor.

Whe ROTJ came around, GL decided to rush things to an end (a three-months trained padawan defeats Vader AND the Emperor and he has an incestuous affair with his sister). And with that he made the OB1 ghost a little senile. A plot hole GL didn't fix in the PT, or better yet, MADE it in the PT by having OB1 have knowledge of Luke's sister.

singe_101
Okay that's a lot to process. Incestuous affair?

Luke beat Darth and maybe I'm a broken record but sometimes guys don't want to crush their opponents, IMO. He didn't want to slay his son. And wasn't there more to toughen Luke up between Ep 5 and 6? Or was that the three months? I remember a "bridge" novel or something developed later.

But you're right, it is a bit of a stretch in the unlikely realm, even as hard as GL worked to make "bad motha" Luke in ROTJ.

queeq
Leia kissing Luke... hehehehe.

The Darth-Luke conforntation is fine as far as I'm concerned. But suddenly defeating the entire Empire in one blow? I dunno...
Ewoks defeating the Emperor's elite 501st? I dunno...

Rogue Jedi
cut the head off the snake and the snake dies. ans the Ewoks were at home in the forest, stormtroopers were not.

queeq
OMG!!! An Ewok believer. do you know how rare you are?

Rogue Jedi
not a believer, not by far. It's just that those little furry bastards were on their own turf.

queeq
Errm... yeah. And the 501st just about batteled a lot of planets over the past 20 years.... Of course they have no idea what trees are.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by queeq
Errm... yeah. And the 501st just about batteled a lot of planets over the past 20 years.... Of course they have no idea what trees are. It has been established that stormtroopers are a joke. did you miss the shootout on Cloud city? who misses a 10 foot tall wookkie? and when is the 501st mentioned at any time during the movies?

singe_101
What, the vaunted and all-powerful Empire being unable to defend against a rag-tag incursion right AT them is unlikely (and calls into question why the Empire is so powerful)?

It's a "PG" movie 24 years ago.

Heads the good guys win, tails the bad guys lose. Or light side beats dark side. The Force was with them.

Rogue Jedi
ever hear of the freedom fighters in Afghanistan? the ones who pwned the Russians?

queeq
Errm.... slightly different...

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by queeq
Errm.... slightly different... how so? Its a good analogy. A ragtag bunch of fighters defeating a superior force.

queeq
In a day? I don't think so. It took the Mujahadin years to wear out the Russian army. Because that is whet they did, just like the VC in Vietnam: guerilla warfare wears out a conventional army that has no military targets, but IS one.
Here a bunch of Teddy bears in a singel day, or afternoon even, wiped out the elite 501st that had been terrorising the universe for 20 years.

Rogue Jedi
again, where in the movies does it say that that is the 501st? and, out of curiousity, was that the 501st on Cloud city?

queeq
Well... the Emperor himself says that the rebels are awaited by his best men. It doesn't say it's the 501st, but we can safely assume this is no regular backwater garrison... but the best of the best.

Rogue Jedi
fact is that stormtroopers SUCK ASS. I'll take 10 clone troopers over 50 stormtroopers anyday.

queeq
Wha'ever.... it still doesn't work.

Rogue Jedi
Stormtroopers SUCK. they couldnt hit water if they fell out of a boat.

queeq
But apparently the OT people think they are good. "Only Imperial Stormtroopers are that precise."

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by queeq
But apparently the OT people think they are good. "Only Imperial Stormtroopers are that precise." have you forgotten the contingent of stormtroopers chasing Han and Chewie aboard the Death Star?

General G
Originally posted by queeq
Leia kissing Luke... hehehehe.

The Darth-Luke conforntation is fine as far as I'm concerned. But suddenly defeating the entire Empire in one blow? I dunno...
Ewoks defeating the Emperor's elite 501st? I dunno...

Finally!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
have you forgotten the contingent of stormtroopers chasing Han and Chewie aboard the Death Star?

That wasn't his point, he was saying the people of the OT considered them good.

queeq
Exactly.

General G
Yeah, and I see you admit the crappiness of the ewoks now.

queeq
I never denied it.

General G
You defended them for a long time.

queeq
No. Wrong again. I said I never understood the extreme hatred for Ewoks. I think Ewoks defeating the Emperor's finest in one afternoon is stretching the credibility of the SW universe a bit.

General G
But that is the reason for the extreme hatred!

IrOnTrAiT
Before anakin was put in the suit he was still struggling within himself vader/anakin he knew what he was doing was wrong(fighting ob-wan, slaughtering youngling) he did it so he could have enough power 2 save padme. But once he found out she was dead he forgot his former self and moved on untill he finds out he has a son.

queeq
Originally posted by General G
But that is the reason for the extreme hatred!

No reason to want to fry them and use their furs for clothing. They're not that bad. GL made them do it.

General G
But the noises...the looks on their faces...the things they did...it seems worth it.

queeq
Now that is Ewok hate... that has nothing to do with them defeating the elite stormtrooper division.

General G
But them defeating the Empire led to those very things to be noticed...to find many things about them that are hated.

queeq
No, you just hate them. No matter what they do.

General G
Because of what they did.

queeq
They win.... so you hate Ewoks because they won.

General G
The way and speed they won.

queeq
No... This is why you hate them:

Originally posted by General G
But the noises...the looks on their faces...the things they did...it seems worth it.

You keep twisting and turning. Hard to debate properly, isn't it?

General G
But those would not have been brought to my attention if they had done the battle better.

queeq
Maybe, but it has been blown out of proportion IMHO.

Nod
Ewoks are brilliant. What BS is this? What the f**k?

General G
What. no expression

Originally posted by queeq
Maybe, but it has been blown out of proportion IMHO.

Maybe it is taken too far.

queeq
By you, among others.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by queeq
Now that is Ewok hate... that has nothing to do with them defeating the elite stormtrooper division. again with the Elite. you are assuming this.

queeq
Palpy says it to Luke. He doesn't call it elite, but says it like this: "An entire legion of my best troops awaits them." I'd say elite is a good synonym.

General G
I would say that works as well...ha! haven't you watched ROTJ?! big grin

Originally posted by queeq
By you, among others.

That is what I was referring to.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by queeq
Palpy says it to Luke. He doesn't call it elite, but says it like this: "An entire legion of my best troops awaits them." I'd say elite is a good synonym. could also be the best troops at hand, maybe the 501st is busy elsewhere.

General G
He wasn't just now referring to the 501st...but the elite...the best nonetheless even if they are the best he has at the moment.

queeq
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
could also be the best troops at hand, maybe the 501st is busy elsewhere.

I think GL said it was the 501st.

And no... clearly he is not referring to the best at hand. Just the best. If he comes all the way himself and foreseeing all this to happen, I think he'd bring the best troops he has.

General G
Ummm...I think that is worse then anything I have said...that means you have only seen ANH and even then...the emperor is a guy...

queeq
You draw some odd conclusions.

darthsith19
I watched ROTS again last weekend and Padme would have HAD to know that Anakin was dead! Why else would Kenobi come back, sweaty, dirty, and with burn marks in his robes, without Anakin? Did she think that Anakin just let them go, and Kenobi was so sweaty, dirty and burned cause he look a swim in the lava pool? wtf?

IrOnTrAiT
Originally posted by darthsith19
I watched ROTS again last weekend and Padme would have HAD to know that Anakin was dead! Why else would Kenobi come back, sweaty, dirty, and with burn marks in his robes, without Anakin? Did she think that Anakin just let them go, and Kenobi was so sweaty, dirty and burned cause he look a swim in the lava pool? wtf?


I think she was in pain and couldnt see that much, she was like half alseep

queeq
Yup, she had other things on her mind.

General G
Babies.

queeq
Something like that.

General G
err...baby, as far as she knew I think...

queeq
She was busy with two whether she knew it or not.

General G
True...true.

queeq
Of course.

General G
But mentally preparing for 1.

Tangible God
Hey, crazy thought!

Maybe... and I say this run-on-sentence full of trepidation, but... just maybe, the shock of being choked by the love of her life into unconsciousness, and being plagued from the mysterious combination of loss and the Dark Side was enough to make her all light headed, dizzy, forgetful... ya kno, in a state of mind where she WASN'T considering all the options that the audience is exposed to? And that perhaps... in all improbability... she was delirious and oblivious to Obi-Wan's current fashion-crisis of burnt clothing and blurry facial features... ya kno, what with all the pain of child-birth, loss of her husband to the forces of evil and madness, and advancing DEATH clouding her vision and judgement.

queeq
Errmm...

General G
You don't think that is plausible?

queeq
Either I don't understand it, or he is summarising what we've been saying all thread long.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by darthsith19
I watched ROTS again last weekend and Padme would have HAD to know that Anakin was dead! Why else would Kenobi come back, sweaty, dirty, and with burn marks in his robes, without Anakin? Did she think that Anakin just let them go, and Kenobi was so sweaty, dirty and burned cause he look a swim in the lava pool? wtf? maybe Annie escaped?

queeq
And he did.

General G
But she didn't know that.

Rogue Jedi
He didnt "escape", Obi Wan coudlnt bring himself to kill him.

queeq
He escaped thanks to Palpy. Had he not come, he prolly would have died.

General G
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
He didnt "escape", Obi Wan coudlnt bring himself to kill him.

No, he wasn't allowed to kill him, he was defenseless, Jedi can't kill defenceless people.

queeq
Not even a Sith? Mace was about to kill Palpy when defenseless on the ground. I agree with Rogue here.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by General G
No, he wasn't allowed to kill him, he was defenseless, Jedi can't kill defenceless people. I think its a judgement call. Vader and Palpy were "too dangerous" to let live, so they were exceptions.

Obi Wan thought of Annie as a brother, and, even though he was no longer Annie but Vader, he still couldn't kill him.

Mace, he was hard core, and he could care less for Palpy, evil or not.

General G
Originally posted by queeq
Not even a Sith? Mace was about to kill Palpy when defenseless on the ground. I agree with Rogue here.

That is exactly why Anakin jumped in!! He wasn't letting Palpy to a fair trial, he was defenceless...Sith or not.

queeq
Which was a bad judgement call, clear for everyone to see.

General G
Yes, clear for everyone to see...but it wasn't the Jedi way, and from all that Palpy had said to Anakin, this proved to him that they had gotten corrupt. I am sure part of it was that OB1 didn't want to kill his 'brother,' but it was even said earlier in the movie that the Jedi don't kill defenceless opponents, and I think it was put in there for this reason.

queeq
So it comes down to considering a living Sith as a defenceless opponent. I think they will always be a threat to stability when they're alive. And that is perhaps where the exception to the rule comes in: in general the JEdi are superior as Force users to just about every sentient creature. That comes with a certain responsibility to all creatures. But with the Sith it's a different matter.

General G
Different matter, yes, Sith can't be the same as someone like...Watto for instance. But as they make clear in that very movie, as far as we know, the Jedi do not kill defenceless opponents, and Palpy was seemingly defenceless, "I'm weak...help me!" the rule applied even more.

MasterAshenVor
She saw what he did to the Jedi Temple and when She saw how EVIL anakin had become by turning his back on her and gripping her . she accepted that he fell to the darkside and killed all of the Jedi at the temple....YES I THINK he did leave out that anakin had been burned...which he noticed since they were hidden that he was still alive....and i do think she had a little force nudge...since you know they did have S-E-X

queeq
Originally posted by General G
Different matter, yes, Sith can't be the same as someone like...Watto for instance. But as they make clear in that very movie, as far as we know, the Jedi do not kill defenceless opponents, and Palpy was seemingly defenceless, "I'm weak...help me!" the rule applied even more.

And 'seemingly' is a dangerous thing with a Sith. After all, he seemingly seemed a good Chancellor for over 12 years.

General G
No, he didn't seem like a good chancellor for over 12 years at all...the Jedi knew he was corrupt and wanted him out, but they had no power to do so, they did what he wanted, sending out Jedi as generals, etc.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by General G
Different matter, yes, Sith can't be the same as someone like...Watto for instance. But as they make clear in that very movie, as far as we know, the Jedi do not kill defenceless opponents, and Palpy was seemingly defenceless, "I'm weak...help me!" the rule applied even more. Palpy wasnt weak, he was playing Annie, he made it seemed like he needed Annie. durh.

queeq
Exactly.

Rogue Jedi
because if you watch, he recovers mighty quickly and zaps Mace into next week, then rises and walks around like nothing happened.

General G
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Palpy wasnt weak, he was playing Annie, he made it seemed like he needed Annie. durh.

Wow, thank you for that, I know that, but it worked on Anakin and therefore he stressed it more to Mace.

queeq
Which showed Anakin's lack of judgement.

General G
That doesn't matter, as far as he knew, he was doing good, he was following the Jedi code, and Palpy only had to convince Anakin.

queeq
But Anakin didn't do good, so killing a Sith in whatever condition doesn't have to go against the Jedi code. Anakin's view was too limited.

General G
But Anakin thought he was doing good. He was staying with the Jedi code...Mace it seemed was not. Yes, his view was limited...he was promoted to Jedi knight early and wasn't a master.

queeq
His misjudgment should not count as to wether killing a seemingly defenceless Sith is the Jedi way or not. That's all I'm saying. Besides, the only reason Anakin did save Palpy is because he needed him for himself, to save Padme. Anakin was not really there as a defender of the Jedi Way. He had selfish reasons to protect his very unJedi lifestyle.

General G
I am just using his misjudgemtn as an example...nonetheless...as far as we can possibly know...killing any unarmed opponent (Anakin said so while tempted to kill Dooku..."I shouldn't...it's no the Jedi way"wink That in itself shows that even a Sith Lord...unarmed...should not be killed.

queeq
Again you use Anakin and his views, his judgment, as a major Jedi criterium.

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