Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

If Lucas came out saying that he's going to re-release a special addition of Star Wars Episode III, but the Mace/Sideous fight would be enhanced.. maybe some actual stuntman involved, etc; would you object or prefer it the way it is now?

What movie did you watch? Ian had a stunman and it was actually fairly obvious I thought.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
If Lucas came out saying that he's going to re-release a special addition of Star Wars Episode III, but the Mace/Sideous fight would be enhanced.. maybe some actual stuntman involved, etc; would you object or prefer it the way it is now?

already was a stuntman with ian mcdiarmid's face digitally graphed on....very poorly. im sure he would be flattered, however, that you would mistake such an old man for being so limber.

That fight was a black hole of suck. Yes, I'd deeply enjoy if they reshot it. McD' and Jackson (to a lesser extent) had no business picking up a lightsaber and dueling so damn slowly.

I think Palpatine should hav used force hurrigane and Mace could hav blocked it with his force static-defence. Now how cool would that look! =O.

There would be stuff flying everywhere! =O

I would watch it...but I think I can live with it the way it is.

Yes, for sure, and Ian did at least some of the fighting himself, GL had him do it so he could get some good close-up shots of his face. But the duel sucked, Mace is like as good as Yoda with a blade, as is Palpatine, and they were moving really slow.

And the other three Jedi sucked big time. A toddler could have taken them out.

I agree Kit "Fisted severely by a dish-gloveless Palpatine" Fisto was the worst offender.

Some of those CGI mask shots REALLY need to be done.

They stood out like an ESB asteroid slug in a small bowl of cereal, and made the audience feel less comfortable than a party full of people who have to witness Luke and Leia getting WAY too drunk and getting off with each other at the annual Jedi picnics....

That fight ended exactly as it should have ended. Absolutely no need to re shot anything

Who was talking about the ending? It was the beginning that sucked big time.

The beginning was rather rediculous.

Exactly.

Mace and Palpatine should have gone faster. More offensive force maneuvers as well.

Probably the WORST scene in SW EVER!
Woeful acting,poor fx match ups and a wasted opportunity.
"HES THE TRAITOR!!! "
Jesus

Originally posted by General G
The beginning was rather rediculous.


I liked now the beginning of the fight started.

The beginning was ridiculous, but I have no issue with the rest of the fight.

Not even with Palpy's funny faces?

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
If Lucas came out saying that he's going to re-release a special addition of Star Wars Episode III, but the Mace/Sideous fight would be enhanced.. maybe some actual stuntman involved, etc; would you object or prefer it the way it is now? why should it be redone? because there wasnt as much leaping around and shit? there wasnt as much leaping around between Obi Wan and Vader in ANH, should it also be redone?

It was two masters going at it, pitting their skills at swordsmanship against each other.

And they both dueled worse then that little toddler kid who took out like 5 troopers before he died during Order 66.

What's your point, silly goose?

Goose?

Yeah, I was hungry at the time.

Hmmm, tasty.

The main problem is the three Jedi Masters with Windu. They have to last more than a few seconds, or make it more obvious that Palps is using force-speed. It just looked like the others were using slow-motion. (which would be a really sucky force power to choose right before going in to combat a sith lord.)

Also, for the sake of fans everywhere, it should be decided once and for all if Palpatine let Mace win or not. It doesn't add up. There is one point in the fight where Mace swings and misses, and Palpatine clearly has Mace at the end of his saber. Windu kinda backs away, and then they go back to fighting. However, later in the fight, Mace kicks the lightsaber out of Palpatine's hand. That COULD NOT have been planned by palpatine. That makes it seem more likely that Mace one. They could just clear that up if they shot it again.

Yea, the fight isn't that good, i don't think its crap, but it would be better if they used stunt doubles. I don't know it should be redone, its part of SW history. I for one don't think it would be a good idea, look what GL did to the OT, with all the changes.

Yeah but the only reason the changes were "bad", is because crotchety older people who grew attached to the OT didn't appreciate all the changes, but for RotS it's still early enough imo to make some changes..

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
And they both dueled worse then that little toddler kid who took out like 5 troopers before he died during Order 66.

What's your point, silly goose? answer me this. was it because it was too slow?

Haermm.. in a way. I mean, yes realism has never been Star Wars fine point.. but to have Mace "Badass mofo" Windu and Darth Sideous fight as slow and frail like as they did.. then an hour later showing Sideous going toe-to-toe with Yoda.. tis' just ridiculous.

It was supposed to be one of the best duels in the entire saga.. but it turned out sucky.

I liked it.

It was done by stunt doubles.

If you notice, both duels (Mace vs. Palpy in Ep. 3, and Obi Wan vs. Vader in Ep. 4), are between older accomplished masters. They rely more on swordsmanship than a bunch of flipping around and shit.

Even the duel between Luke and Vader on cloud city was more fast paced than the forementioned ones.

Yup... that was a nice duel.

I would like to see how the duel would've played out as originally planed.

Sam Jackson was going to fight the stunt double ONLY, and he said he learned "137 moves that go through 3 rooms".

The double was a great swordsman, and it probably would've been an awesome fight. Sam would've moved faster for sure, and it wouldn't have been as goofy.

GL changed things ON THE DAY OF SHOOTING, because he wanted more close-ups. Nic Gillard said that the close ups would be on little twirl moves, or when they charge in at each other, so it had to be all redone.

They half-trained Ian to have a weak little sparring session with Sam and do some goofy thrusts and stuff.

The double was still involved in a few places, but nowhere near as much.

I think the fight still works well, about 85% effectiveness in terms of story and mood, but the action is a little limp-wristed.

I see it as them both knowing every trick in the book, leaving little room for flashy moves, just grunt swordwork.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
I would like to see how the duel would've played out as originally planed.

Sam Jackson was going to fight the stunt double ONLY, and he said he learned "137 moves that go through 3 rooms".

The double was a great swordsman, and it probably would've been an awesome fight. Sam would've moved faster for sure, and it wouldn't have been as goofy.

GL changed things ON THE DAY OF SHOOTING, because he wanted more close-ups. Nic Gillard said that the close ups would be on little twirl moves, or when they charge in at each other, so it had to be all redone.

They half-trained Ian to have a weak little sparring session with Sam and do some goofy thrusts and stuff.

The double was still involved in a few places, but nowhere near as much.

I think the fight still works well, about 85% effectiveness in terms of story and mood, but the action is a little limp-wristed.

I understood Ian just did a few moves where his face showed. The majority of the fight was still done by a stuntman.

they should have gotten Ray Park again.

Too athletic for Palps

Originally posted by queeq
I understood Ian just did a few moves where his face showed. The majority of the fight was still done by a stuntman.

It's hard to say.

The DVD on this part shows where Ian and Sam are walking up and down a path, simply hitting left and right, and criss crossing swords. It also shows Ian practicing a few of the swoosh and slash motions in the main office before the lock up for the close ups.

I know that the double did do some things, but it's nowhere near what he would've done, and more important, Sam had to scrap most of what he'd learned and just work up a little routine with Ian in about an hour or two.

The fight would've been completely different if they'd gone with what Nic Gillard had originally intended.

Originally posted by queeq
Too athletic for Palps that makes little or no sense. he can tone it down, do moves that arent really flashy, wear padding and shit.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
It's hard to say.

The DVD on this part shows where Ian and Sam are walking up and down a path, simply hitting left and right, and criss crossing swords. It also shows Ian practicing a few of the swoosh and slash motions in the main office before the lock up for the close ups.


Even the swooshes are important for close ups, the movements must match. I believe all the wide shots are the stunt double and we get the close ups from Ian.

No, dude THAT's what nic gillard wanted.

He wanted the fight to be more wide shots with the double and just Ian for closeups, but GL messed it all around and had Ian learn more moves to see more of him in the fight. In closeups yes, but also in mid shots.

The only time we get to see the double is in tricky stuff, like the flip in the inner office, the part where he backs Mace down the hallway, and where they slash the glass of the window.

I'd guess that 90% of the remaining shots are of Ian.

Again, I like the sequence and think Ian did good with what little time he had. Thematically and story wise, the scene works.

But I know it would've been WAY better with what Nic Gillard had originally arranged for Sam Jack and the sword double to do.

I just checked The Making of ROTS... and actually it's not quite clear. They have a debate about shooting it, Lucas wants close ups and Gillard hasn't really prepared for that. What I gather from it is that Nick Gillard wanted Lucas to do close ups only when the fight paused a bit, but Lucas wanted close ups of the FIGHT as well. It doesn't say anything about who did the wider shots. Plus Knoll comes in saying that they can push the face replacement a bit further than before, so... it's not very clear.

Agreed.

How much got changed is unsure, but had it been done as originally designed by Gillard, I think that fight would've been ten tons of awesome!

Lucas makes the statement that he didn't want any other fight to trump, or even compare to the fight between Obi-Wan and Anakin, b/c THAT was the lightsaber duel that the whole movie had been building towards (since there is generally one big lightsaber battle in each movie) so maybe he tamed it down on purpose.

Weird... he should have thought of that while writing or at least before Gillard started choreographing the fight.

I think Sidious had a fight too many in this film. I'd have loved to see a battle between Mace and Anakin... a short one, where Anakin used foul play ( a bit like the ending now). I mean, Mace had that coming since he first acted like an a$$hole to Anakin in TPM.

I agree, except that what I was hoping for was a GOOD long duel where Anakin PWNS mace and mace looks all shocked (kinda like Dooku) and tries to apologize and Anakin just looks at him and walks away...mace is relieved... then Anakin runs his saber through his back!

And says:"Apology accepted......master windu."

That'd been great!

except it would never happen. Mace would cornhole that ass with his saber. Annie kabob, anyone?

I doubt it though... Anakin was supposed to be the greatest. He beat Dooku, whom could not entirely be defeated by Yoda....

*sighs*....In ep. 2, Yoda would have BEATEN Dooku had Dooku not resorted to punk tactics.

Originally posted by queeq
I doubt it though... Anakin was supposed to be the greatest. He beat Dooku, whom could not entirely be defeated by Yoda....

tis' a fallacy, that.

Yoda WAS beating Dooku but Dooku ran.

The only reason why Dooku lost to Anakin was because he simply had no where to go.

Andi, if one wants to use the falllacy, we could say that Obi-Wan> Anakin> Dooku > Yoda > Sideous> Mace... which doesn't make any sense.

Oh no... more formula's...

And yeah, I guess Dooku had nowhere else to run with two sabres vicing his neck.

he had nowhere to run throughout the duel.

If he has to run then hasn't he by default lost the duel?

I think in an all out one on one in the chancellors office....

Anakin would've Pwnt Mace.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
If he has to run then hasn't he by default lost the duel?

I think in an all out one on one in the chancellors office....

Anakin would've Pwnt Mace. you talking about count Dookie?

and NO.

And YES.

Annie was faster, younger and more powerful than Obi wan and got served, baby.

Three limbs lost in a blow and a half. I rest my case.

I always wondered why Annie jumoed right at Obi, when he could have jumped to the left or right. the strip of land was narrow, but there was plenty of room for him to jump to Obi Wan's right or left.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
*sighs*....In ep. 2, Yoda would have BEATEN Dooku had Dooku not resorted to punk tactics.

He didn't 'resort' to anything, he used his surrounding...to a successful degree.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I always wondered why Annie jumoed right at Obi, when he could have jumped to the left or right. the strip of land was narrow, but there was plenty of room for him to jump to Obi Wan's right or left.

He was overconfident of his abilities. So he lost. BIG TIME.

Sith's take things directly head on.

Hence why they always lose in the long run.

It worked for Germany in the beginning of World War II, then Hitler made a stupid move.

Yup, the same mistake Naopleon made. tsk tsk.... Overconfidence. Good thing for us though...

Originally posted by queeq
He was overconfident of his abilities. So he lost. BIG TIME. overconfidence=stupidity....difference?

Of course there is a difference. Stupidity is stupid.. always. Overconfidence doesn't need to lead to defeat.

Yes it does, eventually.

I lol'd at all of Ian's facial expressions.

me too, it's like he was climaxing.

Sexy Mace turned him on.

Creepy.

jedigasm?

My Schwarz is bigger than yours.

Thats not what Joe said.

lulz.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Thats not what Joe said.

Joe's a liar.

way to mess up a perfectly good joke.

Thanks.

Originally posted by queeq
My Schwarz is bigger than yours.

G got it.

It would be so awesome if they re-did this fight. Mace is like the best duelist in the jedi order, and Sidious can click his fingers to throw a freakin spaceship. To be honest, I was kinda bothered about waiting to see Anakin vs. Oi-Wan, but i really wanted to know how the best jedi duelist died, and this fight did not do him justice. Redo Redo REDO!

But if they redo it, then that means Lucas is admitting he did wrong, and he can't do that.

Nope.

Proved. It has queeq's agreement.

It was ridiculous at the beginning.

Indeed.

There is nothing freaking wrong with the fight. It should be left alone. Ian may not have done every part of it but he did train to be able to do most of it. Give the man credit. He never had it so tough as Palpatine ie having to use a lightsaber.

It was the parts WITH Ian that kinda sucked. The faces.... those faces...

Originally posted by MrCampion
There is nothing freaking wrong with the fight. It should be left alone. Ian may not have done every part of it but he did train to be able to do most of it. Give the man credit. He never had it so tough as Palpatine ie having to use a lightsaber.

If you read posts before...people don't really have a problem that he didn't do the whole fight, it is more of it lacked quite a bit of quality and entertainment the others had.

Entertainment enough with Ian's funny faces.

Originally posted by General G
If you read posts before...people don't really have a problem that he didn't do the whole fight, it is more of it lacked quite a bit of quality and entertainment the others had.


I did read the posts before and tailored my reply based on that. Perhaps I was not clear, but my first sentence that there is nothing wrong with the fight includes it being full of the qaulity and entertainment value you speak of. I found it more exciting than the other ROTS duels. It had quality and was entertaining.

G's point is that many disagree with your assesment of that fight. And you;re entitled to your opinion.

Originally posted by MrCampion
I did read the posts before and tailored my reply based on that. Perhaps I was not clear, but my first sentence that there is nothing wrong with the fight includes it being full of the qaulity and entertainment value you speak of. I found it more exciting than the other ROTS duels. It had quality and was entertaining.

I don't think it was too clear, over half the post was based on Ian not doing the whole fight, and having a stunt double, so I based my post off of that, and it was semi-interesting, i liked the flip he did, that added to Sidious in my opinion, but the whole fight as a whole didn't offer much.

Well it may not have been completely clear before but it is now. Or should be.

Clear enough, and yet I still disagree.

Disagree about the the wording o my first post?

Disagree with your opinion that it is a comparable duel to other good ones.

OKay then fair enough.

I think Sidious let Windu "win" so Anakin could intervene, therefore Mace was not superior.

I really doubt, if he had let himself into the dire position and Anakin had left or refused, he would've let Windu's saber touch him, either with lightning or a force push. Nobody's probably cutting through Sidious' lightning. But he knew Anakin was going to turn.

But we don't know if Sidious let Windu win. That would also mean he liked the melted face look he had in stor for himself.

Originally posted by singe_101
I think Sidious let Windu "win" so Anakin could intervene, therefore Mace was not superior.

I really doubt, if he had let himself into the dire position and Anakin had left or refused, he would've let Windu's saber touch him, either with lightning or a force push. Nobody's probably cutting through Sidious' lightning. But he knew Anakin was going to turn. horse shit.

New Jedi strategy?

I mean come on, get a clue.

There is no clue.

not you, man, that singe dude.

I know tempers can flare in here but let us try and respect each other at least as fellow debaters. No need to make it personal. I agree with queeq I doubt Sidious allowed himself in to the position Mace put him in. Mace was just that good. And we know that Palpatine does not know every single detail of what will happen but he takes great advantage of it anyway.
IE he did not know the Naboo occupation would fail but he certainly adapted to it, and the loss of Maul.

Palpy wasn't arrogant enough that he couldnt learn from his mistakes. He realized after Maul was defeated where he erred in his training.

Indeed and he moved on with his plans slightly modified.

and yes, Mace OWNED Sidious. I laugh when people say otherwise.

He takes chances but usually those chances do not require such personal risk to himself. He took a gamble on Anakin, but no I don't think he planned every moment from the time he first revealed his sith identity to Anakin.

Besides, we don't know how long it had been that Sidious had even been in a proper lightsaber duel. Sure he no doubt sparred with Maul but an all-out fight? He was good, but out of practice IMO.

out of practice=b!tch got pwned.

On this we can agree, Commander.

And yet, he wiped out three lame Jedi before he got to fight Mace.

The other three were not as skilled in their attack as Mace was. He got them mostly by suprise whereas Mace had a chance to fight him properly.

He got the first two by surprise. Kit Fisto was able to counter, but if you watch closely, he had little room to work with. Had they been in an open area, Kit would have lasted a bit longer.

That is true I had honestly forgot about Kit. That was a shame he fell so fast.

He had to worrt about Palpys attacks, as well as being careful not to impale Mace with his own saber. If you notice, Mace retreats immediately, to give himself more room.

True, they had very little room to manuever, I wonder if that was part of Palpatine's plan when he knew they would be coming for him. I know they may not be canon, but Clone Wars demonstrates Kit was a very good duelist.

that could be argued, I think that a Sith chooses his battlegrounds more carefully than a Jedi.

Now now, hate leads to suffering.

Yeah Palpatine's so weak and unprepared that he created the Galactic Empire before being FOUND by the Jedi as the Sith lord.

Palpatine knows what is going on and what will happen. He can sense the future, as Yoda is asked to and Anakin can more on instinct. Palpatine has telepathy and influences others subconsciously, dreams and fear, etc.

How is Anakin going to culminate his turn to the dark side other than striking Windu? There aren't many better ways.

I think you miss the point that Palpatine does not see everything he can and has been suprised before. This has been proven in the films.

I might be wrong, true. But I think it was set up and if Yoda couldn't vanquish him then Mace couldn't.

stop sniffing paint, man.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
He got the first two by surprise. Kit Fisto was able to counter, but if you watch closely, he had little room to work with. Had they been in an open area, Kit would have lasted a bit longer.

That is such a lame assesment for defending bad direction and bad blocking. They came in with drawn lightsabres to arrest a SITH!!!!! If they can't 'mind their surroundings' they suck as Jedi.

Originally posted by queeq
That is such a lame assesment for defending bad direction and bad blocking. They came in with drawn lightsabres to arrest a SITH!!!!! If they can't 'mind their surroundings' they suck as Jedi. sure, why not.

Which is sad for a character like Fisto. But then, Palpy showd us he sucks as a Jedi.

the office had one way in and one way out, what were the Jedi supposed to do, call to him from the next room? they HAD to enter through the narrow hallway, and when there were four of them in confined quarters, it limited their movements. Anyone with a grade school education can see that.

But any Jedi Master would know what to do expecting heavy opposition, even in a little space like that. These aren't grade schoolers. Look at OB1 and Anakin at the end of ROTS, they fight each other on two square feet of lava droid.

Originally posted by queeq
But any Jedi Master would know what to do expecting heavy opposition, even in a little space like that. These aren't grade schoolers. Look at OB1 and Anakin at the end of ROTS, they fight each other on two square feet of lava droid. well, if you were there, would you expect Sidious to jump straight at you attacking? I would expect him to fight, yes, but what he did caught them totally off guard, even Mace.

how would you have filmed it? this should be fun.

Palpatine would have planned for the encounter so the narrow hallway was definitely designed with that in mind, had to be. As Rogue says sith choose their battlegrounds better than jedi.

BS. You're going to arrest the first Sith in a 1000 years, one you can't even detect with your Jedi senses. You'd better be prepared for something..

And how to film it? You'd be surprised. For one Sidious would have some major movements, he should definately look surperior. Now everything goes slow and the other Jedi just stand and watch until it's their turn to be shish kebabed. No one defends each other, they just stand there. Old Palpy moves around in the small crowded space like he's in a stadium, why can't the tree uberslow Jedi do that?

Besides, it's a movie. The director chooses a small space, he better makes it work.

Maybe when you make your own hit movie we might listen to you.

Originally posted by queeq
BS. You're going to arrest the first Sith in a 1000 years, one you can't even detect with your Jedi senses. You'd better be prepared for something..

And how to film it? You'd be surprised. For one Sidious would have some major movements, he should definately look surperior. Now everything goes slow and the other Jedi just stand and watch until it's their turn to be shish kebabed. No one defends each other, they just stand there. Old Palpy moves around in the small crowded space like he's in a stadium, why can't the tree uberslow Jedi do that?

Besides, it's a movie. The director chooses a small space, he better makes it work. I'd have had the battle range from room to room, with Sidious retreating, lopping off body parts and using force lightning as he tried to escape, but then gets cornered by Mace.

I did.... so listen.

Originally posted by queeq
I did.... so listen. you did what? listen to what?

Pay attention, Rogue

Originally posted by queeq
Pay attention, Rogue well, I like the scenario I presented. makes for a much more entertaining fight.

Wow using your Mod ship to erase my posts because you can't take as good as you give.

I didn't erase anything. Are you imagining clever answers to my posts that aren't there?

Originally posted by queeq
I didn't erase anything. Are you imagining clever answers to my posts that aren't there? he said Mod ship

Maybe you should all call me that from now on.

Originally posted by queeq
Maybe you should all call me that from now on. I am gonna call you something deragatory in Rodian if you aint careful, girlie man.

Oooh.... we have a insult coming up! This'd be good. I'm sure Ush can speak Rodian.

Finti speaks fluent Rodian, but he is on hiatus.

That's good, Finti's an old mate.

Hmm, I will think of something in Mando then.

I know Mando. I think.

I don't think so.

How would you know?