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Okay really open foum here. Now, don't take any books or comics into consideration here. We've all learnt that Qui-Gon is the now-master of the Living Force. Well, he was and then trained Yoda and Obi-Wan to do as he did, so there may have been more. But, if it is true he had a chance to train his former allies, then how did he manage it. Through spiritual communication, or was he actually still alive, and through gaining his knowledge of the living force able to do the impossible and undo the effect of death. So what are your thoughts? How did he do it? Where was he? Please share your opinions.

And how exactly do you think to discuss this without bringing EU into this? There are no canon sources to substantiate any claims or points of view...

Ok, so maybe there aren't hundreds of sources, but thats why this is so open. If we are taking that the whole thing you ca base your opinions on is the mvies then you really can have opinions. So, all you have to base your opinions on is Yoda was meditating whilst talking to the maser at the end of RotS, then him saying to Obi-Wan it was him, and telling Obi-Wan he would become Qui-Gon's apprentice too. That's a good thing

And if you mean because people will disagree, i'm not doing this so anybody can be right. Just want to know what people's opinions are, they don't have to prove or disprove anything

It is already EU..."Qui-Gon is the now-master of the Living Force."

Oh really? Show me in any movie (SW) where this is said.

That'd been my next point. That already is an EU statement.

So...closing?

oh god, k close, but can i make another thread like this, and reword the opening, would that be ok?

I can just add a question mark to it.

But I think you need to clarify the point you wish to debate a little better.

This thread is dead.

Originally posted by General G
It is already EU..."Qui-Gon is the now-master of the Living Force."

Oh really? Show me in any movie (SW) where this is said.

Originally posted by queeq
That'd been my next point. That already is an EU statement.

How exactly is that an EU statement? The living force is a Movie concept, and the statement is an opinion based off of Movie material.

Well it wasn't stated as an opinion.

Are you done nitpicking?

That's not nitpicking, that's fundamental to the issue of where this thread is going to go. Now make a meaningful contribution or stay out of it.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
That's not nitpicking, that's fundamental to the issue of where this thread is going to go. Now make a meaningful contribution or stay out of it.

Firstly, you didn't respond to what the thread was asking, you responded to me. Whether or not you nitpicked would be dependant on the point I was making, not the overall tone of the thread.

Secondly, you countered a minor aspect of what I was saying, that didn't detract from the point I was making in any way. That's what you'd call nitpicking.

I was commenting on what you mentioned, NOT what I originally said, as should have been obvious. The point that it was stated as fact and not opinion is, exactly as I said, very relevant to the point of the continuance of the thread, because it is NOT a fact in film canon. Even what I said about adding the question mark to the title is absolutely and 100% about that point being an opinion and not a fact.

So as I say- post something useful, or stop posting at all.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I was commenting on what you mentioned, NOT what I originally said, as should have been obvious.

Not exactly seeing where I disagreed with that.

NateGreySummers: Firstly, you didn't respond to what the thread was asking, you responded to me.

I quite clearly acknowledged exactly what you were responding to.



It was an opinion (based on the G-Canon movies) stated as fact. Nothing to do with the EU. That would be like you saying "the film portrays Yoda as the sexiest Jedi in the saga" and me labelling that an EU statement. Like what that other dude said, it's no more supported in the EU than it is in the movies, and is still an opinion, no matter how it's presented, based off of the movies.

Not to mention, you're still trying to argue the fact that you nitpicked at my post by supporting it's relevance to the thread, which is beyond asinine.



Ditto.

Ok, this is just not getting through your head. Last time on this.

First, it was NOT nit picking. And your respone to me responding to your comment was brainless. Yes, I know you said that I was responding to you. My point was that I was responding yo you in an entirely important and appro[riate way, NOT nitpicking.

My response to your post was VERY relevant indeed to the point under discussion- the idea about QGJ stated as fact. Despite all your babble above, it WAS stated as a fact- "We've all learnt that Qui-Gon is the now-master of the Living Force". It was, in fact, VERY important that it be made clear that this was an opinion. I frankly don't care what you think about that, that is what has been decided by both mods- that the statement was not a film canon one. Basing a thread of a falsely stated fact is a mistake. I was pointing out that it was wrong of you to take issue with what queeq said.

Secondly, I'm the mod, not you. You don't tell me what to post or not post. Do that again and you will receive a warning.

Get this on topic right now.

*holds finger over closing button*

Point is, Nate, there's no canon source saying that QGJ is a master of the LIving Force. There's not even a canon possibility that there is such a thing as a master of the living force. So if that doesn't exist canonwise, what is there to debate? That's what we want you to clarify.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Ok, this is just not getting through your head. Last time on this.

Calm down. No need to get angry.



Yes, it was. The point I was making was that it wasn't an EU comment. I could care less for whether or not it was an opinion or not, it had nothing to do with my point, and my careless addition of the word "opinion" was what you attacked. You were nitpicking.



This is just plain gibberish.

You: I was commenting on what you mentioned, NOT what I originally said, as should have been obvious.

This, for anyone who possesses an ounce of sense, should make it clear that you're talking bullsh1t.



Good Lord, how long will it take for you to get this?

To argue that you weren't nitpicking at the point I was making, you'd have to analyse the significance of what you replied to in respect to the point I was making. Yet you continue trying to argue that your point had any semblance of significance in respect to the overall thread discussion. It makes you look silly.



NateGreySummers: It was an opinion (based on the G-Canon movies) stated as fact.

Do I hear an echo?



Not important in respect to the point I was making.



Which is why you're still here, posting, after failing to make a point.



Appeal to authority?



I was taking issue with the fact that Queeq labelled it an EU statement. I was not taking issue with the idea that a falsely stated fact is a mistake.

You arguing this has been one giant nitpick.

It was an opinion based on the movies, stated as a fact. Just because it's not an actual fact within the movies, it was still quite clearly supported by the movies.

My original point: QGF was not making an EU statement.

So, it looks like I'm right, and you failed to respond to the essential point I was making, but rather nitpicked like a moron.



Stop posting... Now.



Snap!

OOh mod insult. You did it now.... tsk tsk tsk.... noobs....

no....wait....he just might defeat ush and win the internet

Not that Ush cannnot be wrong, though it is a rare sight indeed, but calling moderator a moron leads to being banned from this site.

And this is actually interesting topic. Qui-Gon was following his instincts, Council seemed more concerned about determining long-term consequences.

Originally posted by Schecter
no....wait....he just might defeat ush and win the internet

That's be groundbreaking.... But no. Calling a mod a moron so early on in the game, that shows no resilience.

Melkor, that is maybe the line Nate needs to justify this thread. If it has any future now...

Indeed, said fool is taking some time off now, which he can learn from or he can get back to taking time off forever.

The problem with the whole 'Living Force' thing is that GL only ever explained it outside of the films. Pity, that.

Pity, quite a number of things.

hehe, that was fun.

When?

Ummm...the guy calling out ush

So are we going to discuss the topic or what? Seems the thread should be closed if everyone is going to talk about noobs and taking time off.

Well, bring something up.

Okay then...I say Qui Gon may have been the epitome of what a jedi attuned to the Living Force is like but the films themselves are shockingly limited on information about it. Qui Gon was a maverick apparently, but I cannot say for certain no one on the Jedi Council could have shared a link to the Living Force rather than what some call the Universal Force.

Especially since th Universla Force is never mentioned. Waht we do get is that QGJ definately moves on his own attunement to the Force and his own intuition. That is why he 'defies' the council, although I am sure he doesn't see it that way. It's rather interesting because QGJ finds a personal way of attuning to the Force superior to the institutionalised way of deciding the Will of the Force. That makes him in a way better than all council members.

'Universal' force was a fan-term, though admittedly one created because there was a void to be filled. GL called the counterpart to the Living Force the 'Cosmic' Force.

It could be said the Council were blinded and that led to their downfall. Maybe if they were more like Qui Gon they could have seen what was really taking place with Palpatine and Anakin.
I think had Qui Gon lived he may have been more of a threat to the sith than Yoda or Mace or Obi Wan.

But the dark side blinds everything. Why would QGJ not be blind for it? He didn't sense dark Palpy when he was just a senator.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
'Universal' force was a fan-term, though admittedly one created because there was a void to be filled. GL called the counterpart to the Living Force the 'Cosmic' Force.

That makes things even worse.

He had very little contact with Palpatine if you remember. It is posslbe had he been close enough like the Council were later once Palpatine was Chancellor he might have sensed something.
We just don't know for certain. I am of the belief that Qui Gon eventually would have become too dangerous to what the sith were planning.

On the QGJ thing- the whole point, as I got it, was that the powers of the Sith prevented the Jedi using their Cosmic Force powers- the general stuff we know about destinym, future prediction etc.- from seeing their return.

But QGJ, the proponent of the Living Force, all that stuff about feeling around you and instincts and what not... he didn't see the Sith coming,, he just knew. As soon as he saw Darth Maul, he just knew they were back. That couldn't be stopped by the Sith. But nor could he prove it.

I also like to think he might have sensed something from Maul in their final duel and had he lived he may have been able to do something to get the Jedi to take notice and prepare for the sith master showing himself.

Originally posted by qui-gon-fanboy
Okay really open foum here. Now, don't take any books or comics into consideration here. We've all learnt that Qui-Gon is the now-master of the Living Force. Well, he was and then trained Yoda and Obi-Wan to do as he did, so there may have been more. But, if it is true he had a chance to train his former allies, then how did he manage it. Through spiritual communication, or was he actually still alive, and through gaining his knowledge of the living force able to do the impossible and undo the effect of death. So what are your thoughts? How did he do it? Where was he? Please share your opinions. magic beans.

hehehe

Of course QGJ "sensed the sith" when he came into contact with Darth Maul. What else would he think when someone attacks him with a lightsaber (which only Jedi and sith use) with great skill (like only that of a Jedi or Sith). What other option would there be?
And if he was such a master of the force, then a Sith apprentice would not have offed him. I see him as a mid level jedi.

i dont think he sensed the sith. he sensed the darkside, and sensed that maul was very powerful, and made a presumption based on that. a wise and correct presumption, but none the less he didnt have a 'sith sense' *dorky laugh*

I see what you're saying I think. Since the sith had supposedly been dead for a thousand years or more, he would not really even think about the term "sith" but instead would feel that it was a darkside-powered warrior. When the battle was over, and he had time to think, he probably reasoned it had to be a sith.
I also kinda got the impression that Qui-gon was out of shape--he was very fatigued in his first and second fights with Maul. I guess Jedi weren't as prepared to fight the sith as the sith were to fight the Jedi.

Why would he not think Maul was a Sith. There is such a thing a deduction, using your brain and some common sense. It's not like Jedi are only guided by their feelings.

Originally posted by K-Dog
Of course QGJ "sensed the sith" when he came into contact with Darth Maul. What else would he think when someone attacks him with a lightsaber (which only Jedi and sith use) with great skill (like only that of a Jedi or Sith). What other option would there be?
And if he was such a master of the force, then a Sith apprentice would not have offed him. I see him as a mid level jedi. a mid level Jedi? are you high? Maul suckered Qui Gon into following him into a trap, where he wore him down and Mauls youth and stamina superseded Qui Gins experience.

Low level Jedi then?

no, Qui Gon was supposedly in his 60's, and Maul wore him down.

Senile Jedi then? You did say he was suckered into a trap by Maul.

Originally posted by queeq
Senile Jedi then? You did say he was suckered into a trap by Maul. no, I am saying that he rushed foolhardy into battle when he should have waited on his padawan.

and his impatience makes him a lesser jedi how?for all he knew he did not hcae time to wait for his apprentice, maybe he felt an urgency to take Maul as soon as possible.

Originally posted by MrCampion
and his impatience makes him a lesser jedi how?for all he knew he did not hcae time to wait for his apprentice, maybe he felt an urgency to take Maul as soon as possible. I never said he was a lesser Jedi, only that he made a decision in the heat of battle that cost him.

and I am not saying he should have "waited" for Obi Wan, I chose my words poorly there. What he should have done is been more patient, not pressed the attack so much, buy himself 20 to 30 seconds for his padawan to rejoin the fight.

perhaps but as you say he was in the heat of battle. I am afraid we shall never know what was on his mind during the fight.

I know. I want to say he should have realized Maul's intentions, but, as you implied, in the heat of battle, sometimes rash decisions are made.

I am one of those who think he sensed something from Maul at the moment he got careless and Maul got him. I have always been intrigued by his strange look before the double sabre went through him.

Heat of the battle has caused a great deal of damage in the SW series when you look at the other films.

Qui Gon was a visionary he could see things the other jedi seemed not to. They doubted his first hand account of being attacked by a sith and it took his own death to convince them.

i think you would make a funny face as well if impaled through the chest with a white hot beam of plasma....just saying.

Originally posted by MrCampion
I am one of those who think he sensed something from Maul at the moment he got careless and Maul got him. I have always been intrigued by his strange look before the double sabre went through him.

Heat of the battle has caused a great deal of damage in the SW series when you look at the other films.

Qui Gon was a visionary he could see things the other jedi seemed not to. They doubted his first hand account of being attacked by a sith and it took his own death to convince them. they doubted it was a Sith because the Sith had been "extinct" for so long.

No the face was right before he got impaled. I am not talking about the scene when he got it in the chest but right before that.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
they doubted it was a Sith because the Sith had been "extinct" for so long.

Which only compunded their collected arrogance in the end. They thought they would sense the sith if any were alive.

Originally posted by MrCampion
Which only compunded their collected arrogance in the end. They thought they would sense the sith if any were alive. indeed.


Originally posted by MrCampion
No the face was right before he got impaled. I am not talking about the scene when he got it in the chest but right before that. realization?

That is what I am wondering about. As if he might have accdientally picked up on some critical information from Maul's untamed mind.

Originally posted by MrCampion
No the face was right before he got impaled. I am not talking about the scene when he got it in the chest but right before that.

simple. "oh shit". he knew he was properly dodged and saw the final blow coming. so...yeah. "oh shit"

If you want to think that go ahead. Maybe I just look for alternate meanings in films.

But not in Sw please.

queeq i will think what I think about SW as you think what you think. There is no one all encompassing view that is right. I try to tolerate other views but can you really say the same?

I'm trying to go by memory and it's been awhile, but the "look" on his face came from 1-2 stunning blows by Maul before the death stab. I believe that Maul's double saber got cut in two so he had a single saber at the time, and he used the handle end as a blunt object and came up under QGJ's chin and stunned him long enough for QGJ's defenses to go down for the final blow.
I know that Maul was as exceptional saber fighter and also younger so maybe I brought QGJ down a bit too much by calling him a "mid level" but would either Mace or Yoda been beated by him? No, and I consider them upper level.

QGJ is rather clearly portrayed as a very powerful Jedi. Quite aside from being a Master, his stature as equal to the Council is deliberately given to the audience.

Maul was just an extremely good swordsman, is the point.

Mace is also a Master of a more aggressive style, remember, but I don't think that is canon.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
QGJ is rather clearly portrayed as a very powerful Jedi. Quite aside from being a Master, his stature as equal to the Council is deliberately given to the audience.

Maul was just an extremely good swordsman, is the point. Maul wore him down, Qui Gon was exhausted at the end of the battle, anyone can see that. Maul let Qui Gon attack attack attack, let him tire out, isolated him, then killed him, simple as that.

I give Qui Gon credit for lasting as long as he did once isolated.

It was a no-win scenario for Qui Gon but he must have known he would not last long on his own.

I wouldnt call it a no win situation, he could have defeated Maul one on one given the right circumstances.

Possibly, but once they were well into it, and he was tried, I think by then it was over. Unless he drew on the force in one sudden swoop like Obi-Wan did later with Maul.

by then it was only a matter of time.

Originally posted by MrCampion
queeq i will think what I think about SW as you think what you think. There is no one all encompassing view that is right. I try to tolerate other views but can you really say the same?

Touchy, aren't we?

Can't stand a little questioning and different opinions? What's an opinion worth if you can't stand up an defend it, as opposed to different opinions?

lean on him hard, Queeq.

No, not really. But to say that I am not open minded, just because I am not convinced by the counter arguments is a bit shortsighted.

I'm getting off topic here, but I thought the way Obi Wan offed Maul was a bunch of PIS. How could you leap up out of a pit while drawing the light saber toward you, catch it, turn it on, and cut a guy in half that just out-skilled both of the jedis? That was a little too much for me, although I'm glad it happened I guess.

perhaps maul was too blinded by his own arrogance to see it coming...i dont know. i agree it was a bit silly that he just stood there and took it, but oh well.

Guess he didn't live too long to regret it.

He's half the man he used to be?

Ouch... that was not very funny.

nothing personal queeq, Im just a debater like you and Rogue. Respect me and I will return the favor.
So far I have found a good number of your posts to be fair minded and well thought. I give as good as I get, that is how I was trained to be online.

Trained? By whom?

Originally posted by queeq
Ouch... that was not very funny. you can thank Soundgarden for that one.

I will...

oh wouldn't you like to know, queeq.....

Not really. I was being polite.

Originally posted by MrCampion
oh wouldn't you like to know, queeq..... wouldnt he like to know what? Queeq?

Originally posted by queeq
Trained? By whom?

Yeh it is a stretch for you, and I was being rhetorical. Politeness doesn't come with laughing icons pal.

OOoh... long word.

Originally posted by queeq
OOoh... long word. what the hell is he on about, man?

Dunno.... just go along... He'll go away.

Originally posted by queeq
Dunno.... just go along... He'll go away. sorta like if you pick at it, it'll never heal?

So much for being openminded.

Yup... and keep your distance to be sure. He might bite.

Originally posted by queeq
Yup... and keep your distance to be sure. He might bite. like a rabid Ewok....

Shhh... he may get offended...

he did. He pm'd me whining about it.

Really? What did he say?

questioned my integrity.

Oooh... a mortal sin.

I'll lose no sleep, I say.

I never doubted you.

You trust too easily.

hehehe....he trusts me?

I said I didn't doubt him... about not losing sleep.

G is known to jump to conclusion. He's a faulty droid.

wipe his memory.

I tried. He has a lot of back ups.

wanna master my force, baby?

Err..... you talkin' to me?

Originally posted by queeq
Err..... you talkin' to me? mehbeh.

Rodian?

Rogueian.

Hmmm ..... odd.

this is KMC, what did you expect?

Definately not a Rogueian...

Sure, like you would know.

I think I would.

I don't think so.

Then you think wrong.

And if I did, so what?

It means your memory is going.

Like you're an expert on memory...

I wouldn't say expert...but it isn't too hard to tell when someone is losing their mind.

*ahem*you*ahem*

Mod insult?

*holds finger over ban button*

That is not an insult at all...now who'se touchy?

And there is no reason for that now is there?

There is if I think there is.

Grrr...one day...one day...I will be a mod and then I will torment you!

Now you sound like Anakin.

Better than Luke!

I dunno... Luke saved the universe, Anakin just made it darker.

Anakin is the one that threw Sids down.

After Luke did all the work, yes.

Not really...he sacrificed nothing.

He risked everything. Anakin just grabbed what he could get his hands on.

He knew he was going to die! And he gave up all of his power...all of his...everything to save his son and the universe. A little more than grabbing onto anything he can get his hands on.

Yes, THEN... only after his son risked all: the lives of his friends, his own life, the rebellion, freedom for the universe... then and only then he decided to chip in and throw an old geezer down a chute. Brave, very brave.

I apologize.

Originally posted by queeq
Yes, THEN... only after his son risked all: the lives of his friends, his own life, the rebellion, freedom for the universe... then and only then he decided to chip in and throw an old geezer down a chute. Brave, very brave.

That was dumb of Luke to have gone on the same ship as Leia and Han, he could have found another way, he didn't have to risk them that way.

He didn't know Vader was tehre, or the Emperor. With no one to sense his presence, where would the danger lie?

Originally posted by queeq
Yes, THEN... only after his son risked all: the lives of his friends, his own life, the rebellion, freedom for the universe... then and only then he decided to chip in and throw an old geezer down a chute. Brave, very brave. easier said than done, homey.

Just to make a point, buddy.

Originally posted by queeq
He didn't know Vader was tehre, or the Emperor. With no one to sense his presence, where would the danger lie?

Why wouldn't they be there? Very protected (supposedly) and someone has to make sure it is going according to plan.

Originally posted by queeq
Just to make a point, buddy. there was a whole lot more to it than just throwing some old geezer down a chute.

Exactly what I was saying.

Vader was spent, had a hand lopped off, and had violent force electricity running through him.

And killed himself for the good of the universe.

more to save his sons life than that though.

Luke is part of the universe no?