Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Who wins?

Which host?

The one from Incredible Hulk #162. Paul Cartier I think.

Well that host did expectionally well against Savage Hulk, but both were far from done so who knows how their fight could have ended.


---------------------------------------------
Battles
---------------------------------------------
Incredible Hulk #162 : Hulk
Hulk is in Canada, when he runs into Marie Cartier and she mistaken though Hulk was the Wendigo and attacks with the villagers. They eventually stop and tells Hulk the story so he travels the woods to fight the Wendigo.

1. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/TheIncredibleHulkv2-162-08.jpg
2. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/TheIncredibleHulkv2-162-09.jpg
3. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/TheIncredibleHulkv2-162-10.jpg
4. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/TheIncredibleHulkv2-162-11.jpg
5. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/TheIncredibleHulkv2-162-12.jpg
---------------------------------------------
Incredible Hulk #162 : Hulk
Round two with the Hulk, and this is even when Paul is fighting the influence of the Wendigo hoping Hulk stops him. Little good it does.

1. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/TheIncredibleHulkv2-162-14.jpg
2. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/TheIncredibleHulkv2-162-15.jpg
3. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/TheIncredibleHulkv2-162-16.jpg
4. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/TheIncredibleHulkv2-162-17.jpg
5. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/TheIncredibleHulkv2-162-18.jpg
6. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/TheIncredibleHulkv2-162-19.jpg
7. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/TheIncredibleHulkv2-162-20.jpg

WEN-DI-GO

Great issue, Mungi

I have it in storage

Wendigo has what it takes to beat Hercules.
Especially the way he was supposed to be written.
Basically a Hulk-Level Werewolf.

Paul Cartier Wendigo could probably beat Hercules. Most Wendigos could for that matter. The only one that couldn't was the dwarf one Sabertooth killed.

WEENNNDDDIGOOOOO

The Wendigo that held up to the Hulk would do good.

The one that failed against Saber and Logan, likely wouldnt. Ah, who are we kidding? It wouldnt.

Originally posted by olympian
The Wendigo that held up to the Hulk would do good.

The one that failed against Saber and Logan, likely wouldnt. Ah, who are we kidding? It wouldnt. Didn't Herc. fail against Logan?

Not on panel.

Then again, thats the best the runt can do. You shouldnt be surprised.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Paul Cartier Wendigo could probably beat Hercules. Most Wendigos could for that matter. The only one that couldn't was the dwarf one Sabertooth killed.



Dwarf?


Wendigo does horrible against other claw weilding Lupins... Doesn't mean he was weaker.

Originally posted by olympian
The Wendigo that held up to the Hulk would do good.

The one that failed against Saber and Logan, likely wouldnt. Ah, who are we kidding? It wouldnt.

I'm guessing you missed the part where Wolverine took down the same Wendigo that was going blow for blow with Hulk huh?
Just because Wendi gets downed by a lupin doesn't make him weaker.

Originally posted by olympian
Not on panel.

Then again, thats the best the runt can do. You shouldnt be surprised.
There was one panel... and there were two images, one while Herc was losing, the other after he lost.

Originally posted by jinzin
I'm guessing you missed the part where Wolverine took down the same Wendigo that was going blow for blow with Hulk huh?
Just because Wendi gets downed by a lupin doesn't make him weaker.

That Wendigo was burned out after figthing Hulk. Logan remarked as much.

Later on, during Byrne`s X-Men run, he got taken down by Logan alone, momentarily, and after he came back, was taken by Snowbyrd with a (real) "Wolverine" form.

Originally posted by jinzin
There was one panel... and there were two images, one while Herc was losing, the other after he lost.

One when they wer figthing, then another with him on the ground. And nothing in the middle. No panels, no action, no narrative, nothing to even hint what and how it happened.

The only reason SnoopDawg even brings it up, its because he is the only internet champion of Colossus taking down Abomination on its own, when there is no panel, no action and not even a narrative line to suggest he did alone, instead with the X-Men helping him out. And thats exactly the only panel we get: all assaulting Abom.

Such is the power of off panels.

Originally posted by olympian
That Wendigo was burned out after figthing Hulk. Logan remarked as much.

When Logan initially started beating him back? No he wasn't.

All Logan said in relation to Hulk vs. Wends was that Hulk tried his best and it wasn't enough.
So... Wrong.

Originally posted by olympian
Later on, during Byrne`s X-Men run, he got taken down by Logan alone, momentarily, and after he came back, was taken by Snowbyrd with a (real) "Wolverine" form.
And? That makes him depowered? When he's batting around Vindicator?
He does bad against Lupins. Always has..


Originally posted by olympian
One when they wer figthing, then another with him on the ground. And nothing in the middle. No panels, no action, no narrative, nothing to even hint what and how it happened.
Wolverine was striking him in the head and he was reeling back. He lost a fight with Wolverine ooonhhhnnnooooesss. Get over it.

Originally posted by olympian
The only reason SnoopDawg even brings it up, its because he is the only internet champion of Colossus taking down Abomination on its own, when there is no panel, no action and not even a narrative line to suggest he did alone, instead with the X-Men helping him out. And thats exactly the only panel we get: all assaulting Abom.

Or maybe he brings it up to point out your flawed line of Logic that Sabretooth or Wolverine beating someone automatically makes them a depowered version...

Pffftt... Yeah Like when Sabretooth takes down Killpower who's stalemating Herc's strength in the same comic. Or when Wolverine takes down Hulk who's stated to be the strongest creature walking the Earth in the same book....


Originally posted by olympian
Such is the power of off panels. Whatever it takes to help you ignore Wolverine beating your favorite character in canon material.

With how Hercules has been preforming in Incredible Herc, I think he should at least make this a split 5/10.

I'm pretty sure he could out-skill Wendigo, and improvise when needed.

Originally posted by MightyEInherjar
With how Hercules has been preforming in Incredible Herc, I think he should at least make this a split 5/10.

I'm pretty sure he could out-skill Wendigo, and improvise when needed.

Well he wouldn't need much to outskill Wendi lol.

Originally posted by jinzin
Well he wouldn't need much to outskill Wendi lol.

Depends on the host

Originally posted by olympian


The only reason SnoopDawg even brings it up, its because he is the only internet champion of Colossus taking down Abomination on its own, when there is no panel, You're wrong as usual. The reason I bring it up is just because Wendigo failed to down Logan or Sabretooth does not mean he can fail to take down Hercules when in fact Hercules himself has failed to take down Wolverine.

Originally posted by jinzin
When Logan initially started beating him back? No he wasn't.

All Logan said in relation to Hulk vs. Wends was that Hulk tried his best and it wasn't enough.
So... Wrong.

All Wolverine did was finish him off. In a story where its showed how Wendigo is alot easier to hit and hurt with the adamantium claws, while against Hulk for example they did nothing.

Apart from the finished move, what else did he do of note other than jumping around?

Originally posted by jinzin
And? That makes him depowered? When he's batting around Vindicator?
He does bad against Lupins. Always has..

Vindicator wasent there in either instance that i mentioned. It isent a matter of being depowered, its a matter of the versions being different according to the host.

Originally posted by jinzin
Wolverine was striking him in the head and he was reeling back. He lost a fight with Wolverine ooonhhhnnnooooesss. Get over it.

I dont need to get over balloney. A version who got beaten from by Wolverine alone isent going to win against someone like Hulk or Hercules. Especially when said version lacks bigger figthing showings

Originally posted by jinzin
Or maybe he brings it up to point out your flawed line of Logic that Sabretooth or Wolverine beating someone automatically makes them a depowered version...

When the version in question doesnt have any other major opponents in comparation with another who did well against the Hulk? More than once?

You keep bringing the depowered antics and it doesnt apply.

Originally posted by jinzin
Pffftt... Yeah Like when Sabretooth takes down Killpower who's stalemating Herc's strength in the same comic. Or when Wolverine takes down Hulk who's stated to be the strongest creature walking the Earth in the same book....

Yeah, those are low showings. If they happened as you say at all.

A Wendigo version who only fougth Logan and co, and was beaten all the times by Logan and co, isent a low showing, its a standart.

Originally posted by jinzin
Whatever it takes to help you ignore Wolverine beating your favorite character in canon material.

I dont even need to ignore it. The writer himself did that by not including a single thing about the figth. Like i said, credit definatly goes to the runt with a win that you dont know anything about. My preference? It goes to two other showings where i see what it happens and a midget gets tossed around.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
You're wrong as usual. The reason I bring it up is just because Wendigo failed to down Logan or Sabretooth does not mean he can fail to take down Hercules when in fact Hercules himself has failed to take down Wolverine.

*points above*

Yeah, yeah. It doesnt fly on other boards and it doesnt fly with me.

Originally posted by olympian
All Wolverine did was finish him off. In a story where its showed how Wendigo is alot easier to hit and hurt with the adamantium claws, while against Hulk for example they did nothing.

He didn't just finish Wendi. He jumped him right after Hulk and had him staggering back already before Hulk jumped back into the fight after confusion. Hulk couldn't bring Wendi down, Wolverine could. Hulk wasn't gaining any advantage on Wendigo before the end of that fight, Wolverine was. Nice attempt to try and discredit Loges though.. I guess the Wendigo that manhandled She-Hulk was depowered only when he was fighting Logan too huh?

Originally posted by olympian
Apart from the finished move, what else did he do of note other than jumping around?


http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/6775/hulk181ctg9.jpg


Originally posted by olympian
Vindicator wasent there in either instance that i mentioned. It isent a matter of being depowered, its a matter of the versions being different according to the host.



In the byrne feat that you reffered to where Wolverine beat Wendigo by himself... Earlier that very comic Wendigo was taking batting practice to Vindicator/Guardian/Mac (if that helps you). It's a matter of every version being a C100 Hulk level threat.... Unless of course Wolverine/Sabretooth have beaten them according to you.


Originally posted by olympian
I dont need to get over balloney. A version who got beaten from by Wolverine alone isent going to win against someone like Hulk or Hercules. Especially when said version lacks bigger figthing showings. And why would that be? A version who was going rounds with Hulk which Hulk couldn't get an advantage on was losing to Wolverine. But this goes right back to your notion that being beaten by Wolveirne automatically makes one depowered... In spite of the fact that Wolverine has given Hulk hell on 20 occasions now...

Originally posted by olympian
When the version in question doesnt have any other major opponents in comparation with another who did well against the Hulk? More than once?

You keep bringing the depowered antics and it doesnt apply.
That's exactly what you're saying.. That the hosts that Wolverine beat wouldn't be a threat to Hulk in spite of the fact that Wolverine's toe to toed it with ones that were threats to Hulk, She Hulk, Guardian, and Mauvais.

Originally posted by olympian
Yeah, those are low showings. If they happened as you say at all.
Low showings? Why because you say so? Both characters have long running histories of being legit threats to C100's. Sorry you have a problem with it but stronger doesn't equate to better. The same way that "beaten by Wolverine/Sabretooth" doesn't equate to weaker, which is that garbage you're trying to sell here.

Originally posted by olympian
A Wendigo version who only fougth Logan and co, and was beaten all the times by Logan and co, isent a low showing, its a standart. A standard like Wolverine being a threat to C100's without any mention of depowerment/weakness/plot device? Yea thought so.



Originally posted by olympian
I dont even need to ignore it. The writer himself did that by not including a single thing about the figth. Like i said, credit definatly goes to the runt with a win that you dont know anything about. My preference? It goes to two other showings where i see what it happens and a midget gets tossed around. "I don't like it, it didn't happen"....


Tossed around? if by tossed around you mean that Herc got planted on his ass in one instance and ran away in the next. Both times looking to grab a foreign object to literally sheild himself from Logan because he's scared of Wolverine's claws...

Originally posted by jinzin
He didn't just finish Wendi. He jumped him right after Hulk and had him staggering back already before Hulk jumped back into the fight after confusion. Hulk couldn't bring Wendi down, Wolverine could. Hulk wasn't gaining any advantage on Wendigo before the end of that fight, Wolverine was. Nice attempt to try and discredit Loges though.. I guess the Wendigo that manhandled She-Hulk was depowered only when he was fighting Logan too huh?

Sorry to know that you dont know what a finish move is. He gets tossed at a tree, and Logan then jumps in. Thats a finish move.


Originally posted by jinzin
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/6775/hulk181ctg9.jpg

So, jumping in and cutting?

When i asked something of note, i was asking something on his own with the same effect he had at the end, AFTER Hulk hit Wendigo.

Originally posted by jinzin


In the byrne feat that you reffered to where Wolverine beat Wendigo by himself... Earlier that very comic Wendigo was taking batting practice to Vindicator/Guardian/Mac (if that helps you). It's a matter of every version being a C100 Hulk level threat.... Unless of course Wolverine/Sabretooth have beaten them according to you.

No need to wtf whatosever.

Especially since there is a reason in the story for Mac and co, NOT going after him, after the initial assault. The way they fougth, wasent akin to someone figthing a Hulk level guy.

Ah, and you forgot another top tier figthing on that day: Nigthcrawler.

Originally posted by jinzin
And why would that be? A version who was going rounds with Hulk which Hulk couldn't get an advantage on was losing to Wolverine.

After Hulk had attacked him, since Wolverine alone despite the cuts, wasent taking him down either.

Take Hulk off the battle and Logan wouldnt had finish him off.

Originally posted by jinzin
But this goes right back to your notion that being beaten by Wolveirne automatically makes one depowered... In spite of the fact that Wolverine has given Hulk hell on 20 occasions now...

What you give me the is the notion of not really being smart. I am not talking about any loss of power, because there isent really one. The Wendigo is different according to the host. It has always been that way.

And a Wendigo that gets taken down by Logan alone and Snowbyrd isent the same as one battling logan and the HULK, or the same as battling Sasquatch and the Hulk and doing good in both instances.

Originally posted by jinzin
That's exactly what you're saying.. That the hosts that Wolverine beat wouldn't be a threat to Hulk in spite of the fact that Wolverine's toe to toed it with ones that were threats to Hulk, She Hulk, Guardian, and Mauvais.

Oh, please.

Wolverine couldnt had finished off any of those without the assistance. And yet he COULD to the one we are debating about. Weird as shit, isent it?

Heck, he had the whole Alpha Fligth assisting him against Mauvais in Wendigo form and yet the only way he was stopped was when the Canadian Gods stepped in.

Originally posted by jinzin
Low showings? Why because you say so?

No. Because said characters are usually written battling higher ranted foes than Wolverine.

Originally posted by jinzin
Both characters have long running histories of being legit threats to C100's.

They are threats, but they arent cl 100 busters.

Originally posted by jinzin
Sorry you have a problem with it but stronger doesn't equate to better. The same way that "beaten by Wolverine/Sabretooth" doesn't equate to weaker, which is that garbage you're trying to sell here.

It would only be garbage if the version in question had better shit to draw from.

Originally posted by jinzin
"I don't like it, it didn't happen"....


Did i said that?

Brother. Im debating someone who cant read.

Originally posted by jinzin
Tossed around? if by tossed around you mean that Herc got planted on his ass in one instance and ran away in the next. Both times looking to grab a foreign object to literally sheild himself from Logan because he's scared of Wolverine's claws...

More like both times when he tells the runt to stop bothering him like a child, and when the runt doesnt listen he bitchtslaps him across the room like a servant.

"your table, please"?

Originally posted by olympian
Sorry to know that you dont know what a finish move is. He gets tossed at a tree, and Logan then jumps in. Thats a finish move. I said he didn't "just finish" Wendigo... which is what you're stating he did. You're flat out wrong. I'm sorry that your reading comprehension skills are so poor you can't accurately respond to my arguments and your memory so horrid you can't remember what your own argument posed.

Originally posted by olympian
So, jumping in and cutting?
You asked...

"Apart from the finished move, what else did he do of note other than jumping around?"

Well that's what he did, he jumped at Wendi, and he was hacking away... and dodging, and kicking... essentially? Winning a fight with a creature that you seem to think he couldn't beat. You also seemed to think all he did was jump around... Which is once again... Wrong.

Fact is, Wolverine was beating Wendigo into submission before Hulk came in and body slammed him. It's right there on the pages printed in ink.

Originally posted by olympian
When i asked something of note, i was asking something on his own with the same effect he had at the end, AFTER Hulk hit Wendigo.
(*applauds*) Way to backtrack when stepped into a corner. You've implied that the Wendigo Wolverine could beat had to be below the level of the one's that have given Hulk a hard time, then you implied all Wolverine did was finish Wendi.. When proven wrong on both counts NOW you want to pretend that you asked for something else..
We've seen "the same" effect end Wolverine fights with Wendigo several times now so if you're attempting to say that Wolverine couldn't have done it without Hulk's help in spite of the fact that Wendigo's weakening from Wolverine's attacks BEFORE Hulk interviened... You're grasping...


Originally posted by olympian
No need to wtf whatosever.

Especially since there is a reason in the story for Mac and co, NOT going after him, after the initial assault. The way they fougth, wasent akin to someone figthing a Hulk level guy.

Ah, and you forgot another top tier figthing on that day: Nigthcrawler.
Nightcrawler's a pretty far cry from to tier.. lol.

"the way they fought" There you go trying to pass off your speculatory bullshit as facts again.... Pfffftttt.. Nightcrawler was porting for his life while Guardian was trying to fight using his range and keeping his distance.. that's EXACTLY how they would respond to a "Hulk level guy".

Originally posted by olympian
After Hulk had attacked him, since Wolverine alone despite the cuts, wasent taking him down either.
No BEFORE hulk attacked him...

"though you might think a fight... is one sided, we assure you it is not"
"He's weakening"... Wolverine was beating Wendigo back and winning the fight before Hulk jumped in to bodylam him.
Also, just because Hulk jumped in doesn't mean that Wolverine couldn't take him down by himself... Like he has done.

Originally posted by olympian
Take Hulk off the battle and Logan wouldnt had finish him off.
Nonsense. That's entirely speculation, and it goes against proof where Wolverine has had Wendigo on the run, Koed, or outclassed in several other encounters. Oh right, all those Wendigo's were weaker versions...

Your entire argument relies on giving the benefit of the doubt to Wendigo and stripping it from Logan in spite of an entire career of taking down C100's on top of the panels that contradict your argument in the first place. Biased nonsense all in some attempt to keep Herc from looking bad. Sad really.

Originally posted by olympian
What you give me the is the notion of not really being smart.
This coming from someone who has to change or sidestep his own arguments to keep from owning himself?......

First Post: Originally posted by olympian
The Wendigo that held up to the Hulk would do good.
The one that failed against Saber and Logan, likely wouldnt. Ah, who are we kidding? It wouldnt.
Except for the fact that the same Wendigo who held up to Hulk WAS failing against Wolverine to begin with:
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/6775/hulk181ctg9.jpg

Second Post: Originally posted by olympian
That Wendigo was burned out after figthing Hulk. Logan remarked as much. Still waiting for you to prove that Wendigo who has a healing factor faster than Wolverine's that runs on magic was burnt out....

Third Post: Originally posted by olympian
All Wolverine did was finish him off
Nope: http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/6775/hulk181ctg9.jpg

Forth Post: Originally posted by olympian
Vindicator wasent there in either instance that i mentioned.
Instance mentioned? >>>> Originally posted by olympian
Later on, during Byrne`s X-Men run, he got taken down by Logan alone, momentarily, and after he came back, was taken by Snowbyrd with a (real) "Wolverine" form.
Vindicator "not there": http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/uxm140pg09.jpg

Fifth Post: Originally posted by olympian
My preference? It goes to two other showings where i see what it happens and a midget gets tossed around.
Logan getting "tossed around": http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/6026/herculesfirstfight3jq6.jpg

Originally posted by olympian
I am not talking about any loss of power, because there isent really one. The Wendigo is different according to the host. It has always been that way.
You are though, you're implying that any Wendigo that gets handled by Sabretooth or Wolverine isn't going to be on level enough to be a threat to Herc and Hulk.. Which is stupid considering that 1) Herc's lost to Wolverine. 2) Hulk's lost to Wolverine and 3) The "version" in question is exactly thr version that Wolverine was fighting AND beating in his very first appearance in comics EVER....

Originally posted by olympian
And a Wendigo that gets taken down by Logan alone and Snowbyrd isent the same as one battling logan and the HULK, or the same as battling Sasquatch and the Hulk and doing good in both instances.

That's what you THINK.. prove it... prove that he was on a much weaker level. Convinient for your argument that Wendigo was a Hulkbusting version before his fight and after his fight with Wolverine but not when he was fighting Wolverine....

Originally posted by olympian
Oh, please. Wolverine couldnt had finished off any of those without the assistance. And yet he COULD to the one we are debating about. Weird as shit, isent it?

Bias speculation; prove it.
Because so far Wolverine has put a beating on the one we're discussing and showed no signs of slowing down.


Originally posted by olympian
Heck, he had the whole Alpha Fligth assisting him against Mauvais in Wendigo form and yet the only way he was stopped was when the Canadian Gods stepped in. I'm not talking about the Mauvais hybrid... there you go with your comprehension problems again... I'm talking about Wendigo before Mauvais ate his heart.. Wolverine was doing better in that fight, and ultimately did do better than Wendigo did. He posed a threat to a Wendigo who had Mauvais on the ropes.

Originally posted by olympian
No. Because said characters are usually written battling higher ranted foes than Wolverine.
Higher rated when it comes to effecient cutting weapons and top level fighting skill like Wolverine's? No... So you've got no proof then?

Originally posted by olympian
They are threats, but they arent cl 100 busters. They ARE class 100's though, and that's all I'm tryng to debate.

Originally posted by olympian
It would only be garbage if the version in question had better shit to draw from.
Better shit than stalemating Hulk, roping a guy who scared Doc. Strange, dropping Sasquatch before he could put up a defense?

Originally posted by olympian
Did i said that?

Brother. Im debating someone who cant read.

You implied it when you tried to write off Herc losing to Wolverine simply based on the fact that it happened off panel in spite of having at least two panels to draw some context from...

Originally posted by olympian
More like both times when he tells the runt to stop bothering him like a child, and when the runt doesnt listen he bitchtslaps him across the room like a servant.
Yup.... Zounds! totally sounds like he equates Wolverine to a child...
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6415/herculesfirstfight1el4.jpg

Originally posted by olympian
"your table, please"? Herc's the one getting offered a seat: http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9078/herculesfirstfight4su9.jpg

Yeah, just look at the pleasent look of Hercules when Wolverine actually DOES something instead of being treathed like the servant he was. Watching him squirt over the table like a cartoon puppet only amused Hercules more. So much that he cracked even more jokes to the midget:

"cmon, duffus, that is ALL?"

But here he actually does something of note. One hit. That makes Herc strike a beach pose and offer him a drink:

"so you do have some worth, thats cool. I was getting worried about you".

You cant even whine about the second encounter when Logan had the backup of other four Avengers, tried to sneacked on Herc without warning and still got bitched like everyone else. On the subject to the Wendigo, i have to talk to you like a four year old, watch:

A) a Wendigo that figths both Hulk and Wolverine at the same time and is doing GOOD is not on a level of a Wendigo that get troubles dealing with Logan and Snowbird.

B) a Wendigo that figths Sasquatch and Hulk at the same time and is doing GOOD isent on a level of a Wendigo that gets troubles dealing with Logan and Snowbird.

C) a Wendigo that figths Logan and the whole Alpha fligth and is doing GOOD sent on a level of a Wendigo that gets troubles dealing with Logan and Snowbird.

The ones that gave hell to someone like Hulk and co, are surely top tier menaces. The ones who only have Wolverine and Snowbird to deal with and lose, arent. And it goes exactly in character because the Wendigo varies according to the host. This was seen with Mauvais when the Wendigo changed and got more powerful.

Originally posted by jinzin
You implied it when you tried to write off Herc losing to Wolverine simply based on the fact that it happened off panel in spite of having at least two panels to draw some context from...

Implied nothing, kid. I said i aknowleged it. There is no reason not to, really. Its healthy to know that the best Wolverine can do to someone like Hercules is to somehow, somewhere win off panel. It just shows how much though the writer put into it.

Herc was tipped over by a table? wuss

I find amusing that you try to get some rivality happen, but i just got more history with Jin.

Originally posted by llagrok
Herc was tipped over by a table? wuss

Was it a coffee table? mhmm

The coffe table that fell Apocalypse?

Maybe. But look how Apoc ran away, while Herc was just tipped and offered a drink.

Herc > Apoc.

Originally posted by olympian
The coffe table that fell Apocalypse?

Maybe. But look how Apoc ran away, while Herc was just tipped and offered a drink.

Herc > Apoc.

The table wasn't the reason Apoc ran, though.

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
Was it a coffee table? mhmm

When Bada tried to break a table on me, I just laughed and twisted his arm.

But you got hit by the falling table across the room. I know, i was there.

Originally posted by olympian
Yeah, just look at the pleasent look of Hercules when Wolverine actually DOES something instead of being treathed like the servant he was. Watching him squirt over the table like a cartoon puppet only amused Hercules more. So much that he cracked even more jokes to the midget:

"cmon, duffus, that is ALL?"
So what? He wasn't crackin jokes when Wolverine whipped out the claws, and he equated Wolverine to a giant not a child when Wolverine floored his ass.
Yeah Wolverine really got tossed around.

And once again, Hercules on two seperate occasions has needed a foreign object to negotiate Wolverine's claws and keep from getting turned into meat cubes.

Originally posted by olympian
But here he actually does something of note. One hit. That makes Herc strike a beach pose and offer him a drink:

"so you do have some worth, thats cool. I was getting worried about you".
"Zounds!"

Originally posted by olympian
You cant even whine about the second encounter when Logan had the backup of other four Avengers, tried to sneacked on Herc without warning and still got bitched like everyone else.
He needed Captain America's shield.... Give him an indesctructible shield and the odds obviously change.

Originally posted by olympian
On the subject to the Wendigo, i have to talk to you like a four year old, watch:
How sad that you're argument has to devolve to petty insults every time you get backed into a corner.. But if you think that's helping...

Originally posted by olympian
A) a Wendigo that figths both Hulk and Wolverine at the same time and is doing GOOD is not on a level of a Wendigo that get troubles dealing with Logan and Snowbird.
For one, Wendigo never fought Hulk and Wolverine at the same time "doing good", as soon as both characters joined up, Wendigo was in a one sided curbstomp.
He didn't land one offensive blow nor one defensive move.

Second, the Wendigo in question WAS having trouble with Wolverine alone. He was staggering back, weakening, not landing blows, he was losing. So your logic here is flawed as well as your recollection of the events that tooks place.

Originally posted by olympian
B) a Wendigo that figths Sasquatch and Hulk at the same time and is doing GOOD isent on a level of a Wendigo that gets troubles dealing with Logan and Snowbird.
Evidenced by what?
Prove it.

Originally posted by olympian
C) a Wendigo that figths Logan and the whole Alpha fligth and is doing GOOD sent on a level of a Wendigo that gets troubles dealing with Logan and Snowbird.
See? You want to equate me to a child, yet you can't even follow simple trains of thought. I'm not refering to the Mauvais/Wendigo-Hybrid. I didn't bring the hybrid up, and have in fact clarified that I wasn't reffering to the hybrid... So why do you bring him up? To ignore the fact that Wolverine WAS outclassing a Wendigo who was a threat to a Doc Strange level villain.

Originally posted by olympian
The ones that gave hell to someone like Hulk and co, are surely top tier menaces. The ones who only have Wolverine and Snowbird to deal with and lose, arent.
Based on what proof aside from losing to Wolverine?

Do I REALLY need to start bringing every example of Wolverine taking out top tier level menaces? The man put down Kierrok by himself in 4 panels in his 9th appearance. Kierrok owned the whole X-Men and 2 shotted Colossus.

Wolverine one shotted Arkon.

And, again, Hulk himself has had trouble with Wolverine.. Your logic is flawed.

Originally posted by olympian
And it goes exactly in character because the Wendigo varies according to the host. This was seen with Mauvais when the Wendigo changed and got more powerful.
Sure it's evidenced. So if the host is stronger or weaker based on the host and abilities there of we can draw the conclusion that since there was no clear difference between the first three Wendigo hosts, there'd be no CLEAR difference between the first three Wendigos.

Wendigo is always portrayed as a brick level character and nothing less, including the monkey sized one in Fanfare. Even his handbook entries give him brick level strength with no mention of a clearly changing consistency. Wendigo from Uncanny was portrayed as a brick level as well.

You think they weren't treating Wendigo like he was a class 100? Nightcrawler had never booked from 100's like he did Wendigo, and that includes people like Juggernaught, Kierrok, and Moses Magnum among others.
Vindicator got owned and Wendigo didn't even acknowledge his blasts.


Originally posted by olympian
Implied nothing, kid. I said i aknowleged it. There is no reason not to, really. Its healthy to know that the best Wolverine can do to someone like Hercules is to somehow, somewhere win off panel. It just shows how much though the writer put into it. You've implied plenty wrong, and have flat out stated plenty more. I've already explosed you so there's no need for me to do it again.

Funny how Wolverine takes down "somone like Hercules" all the time.

Funny how even though you think that's the "best he can do" being off panel that he's taken down Namor on panel or held his own every time they've fought. But like I said before.. whatever it takes to help you rationalize your favorite character losing.

Wolverine portrayals against bricks have been pretty consistent. He's always done good against bricks.

Originally posted by jinzin


Wolverine one shotted Arkon.

How many times did they fight? I remember Arkon drop kicking Wolverine on his way out of a pool making Logan go limp. Colossus then kayoed Arkon.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
How many times did they fight? I remember Arkon drop kicking Wolverine on his way out of a pool making Logan go limp. Colossus then kayoed Arkon. It was later. Wolvie KOed him with a backhand "nnnggghhhhhh!"

Originally posted by llagrok
Wolverine portrayals against bricks have been pretty consistent. He's always done good against bricks.

Yup. I mean you'd think they'd give the guy a break having been doing that since his first appearance.

Originally posted by jinzin
Yup. I mean you'd think they'd give the guy a break having been doing that since his first appearance.

And most bricks fight like idiots against Wolverine, they punch him 20 yards away every damn time, which gives him a lot of time to heal up. That's why I give martial artists and certain speedsters better odds against him than bricks. Numerous blows to his head in a quick succession, is much more like to succeed than one super blow every other minute....

Originally posted by llagrok
And most bricks fight like idiots against Wolverine, they punch him 20 yards away every damn time, which gives him a lot of time to heal up. That's why I give martial artists and certain speedsters better odds against him than bricks. Numerous blows to his head in a quick succession, is much more like to succeed than one super blow every other minute.... Agreed.

herc does better against wendy than he does against wolvie for just that reason, imo. wolverine has the wepaons AND skill AND brains. wendigo is savage. he could certainly put a hurt on herc, but herc wins almost everytime imo.

herc v wolverive?? think i'll stay out of that one . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
could certainly put a hurt on herc, but herc wins almost everytime imo. I disagree

Originally posted by leonidas
herc v wolverive?? think i'll stay out of that one . . . wise choice old friend.

Originally posted by jinzin
So what? He wasn't crackin jokes when Wolverine whipped out the claws

Oh, he did cracked more jokes. Didnt you saw him laugthing? You probably could see it if you looked at the whole pages instead just the two panels where he does *something*.

Originally posted by jinzin
And once again, Hercules on two seperate occasions has needed a foreign object to negotiate Wolverine's claws and keep from getting turned into meat cubes.

"You cant use foregein weapons"

(but he used the table to make the other man trip)

"that doesnt count, arsehole".

Of course, of course.

Originally posted by jinzin
He needed Captain America's shield.... Give him an indesctructible shield and the odds obviously change.

Dont have Logan sneak on him or bring backup. How about it?

Not that it actually helped him,in the end.

Originally posted by jinzin
For one, Wendigo never fought Hulk and Wolverine at the same time "doing good", as soon as both characters joined up, Wendigo was in a one sided curbstomp.

He was certainly doing better than the time the other mudball lost against Wolverine alone, wouldnt you think?

This isent rocket science, kid. I mean, damn.

Originally posted by jinzin
Second, the Wendigo in question WAS having trouble with Wolverine alone. He was staggering back, weakening, not landing blows, he was losing. So your logic here is flawed as well as your recollection of the events that tooks place.

I find it weird that you say he "was losing" when after the three panels where Wolverine spends the time cutting him, he was still figthing the Hulk.

Originally posted by jinzin
Evidenced by what?
Prove it.

Use your brains and compare both showings. How hard is it?

Originally posted by jinzin
See? You want to equate me to a child, yet you can't even follow simple trains of thought. I'm not refering to the Mauvais/Wendigo-Hybrid. I didn't bring the hybrid up, and have in fact clarified that I wasn't reffering to the hybrid... So why do you bring him up? To ignore the fact that Wolverine WAS outclassing a Wendigo who was a threat to a Doc Strange level villain.

I brougth the hybrid to the obvious comparations about the different Wendigo. That every Wendigo is different. Because of the host. Its not a depowerment issue. Wich is what you keep bringing up:

"oh, your talking about him being depowered!!"

No, im not. You dont know a background of a character, dont discuss it.

Originally posted by jinzin
Based on what proof aside from losing to Wolverine?

He in two different ocassions to Wolverine and Snowbird alone. The others didnt. Tell, do you regard the same Wendigo who got killed by Saber with the same level as the ones who always fougth Hulk together with someone else?

I keep telling this isent rocket science, and you dont really need a university degree to understand it. But you are made of fail.

Originally posted by jinzin
Do I REALLY need to start bringing every example of Wolverine taking out top tier level menaces? The man put down Kierrok by himself in 4 panels in his 9th appearance. Kierrok owned the whole X-Men and 2 shotted Colossus.

Colossus isent top tier. And unless those two teams had the likes of Phoenix or Juggernaut and have them being beaten head on, that doesnt make Wolverine a top tier teamwrecker, either.

Originally posted by jinzin
Wolverine one shotted Arkon.

Arkon isent a physical top tier. Just like Logan what makes him dangerous is the weapons he sports.

Nullify that, and he goes down the way he consistantly has.

Originally posted by jinzin
And, again, Hulk himself has had trouble with Wolverine.. Your logic is flawed.

Having troubles with someone doesnt translate into beating them. Wich is what you sport. You cleary think he can take a majority over Hercules, despite being humiliated twice against one off panel showing. I think you would think the same about Wolverine and Hulk, wouldnt you?

Despite the fact he never did to Green Hulk what he only accomplished with Gray. And the guy still got up.

Originally posted by jinzin
Wendigo is always portrayed as a brick level character and nothing less, including the monkey sized one in Fanfare. Even his handbook entries give him brick level strength with no mention of a clearly changing consistency. Wendigo from Uncanny was portrayed as a brick level as well.

"Brick" is a defination that only refers to someone who mainly relies in strength. Handbook piece? Its for my toilet.

His visual appearance? Why do you bring that up when its obvious that i am talking about the differences in power showings?

Originally posted by jinzin
You think they weren't treating Wendigo like he was a class 100?

Whatever initial intention they may had, i think the actual resume speaks for himself. He may scare away people like a huge threat such as Hulk, but when it comes down to it, what he did simply isent top tier material.

This isent a unique example in comic books. "Look, Apocalypse is going to return migthier than ever"

"Oh, he lost to Colossus. Oh well, maybe he wasent that migthy this time".

Originally posted by jinzin
Funny how even though you think that's the "best he can do" being off panel that he's taken down Namor on panel or held his own every time they've fought. But like I said before.. whatever it takes to help you rationalize your favorite character losing.

I keep saying im ok with it, you keep bring up i need to rationalize something. Someone is projecting insecurity, here.

Clameront cleary gave a big deal of though about it. The off panel win is an amazing description on how someone like *bone claw* Wolverine can take down Hercules. And what we saw was..what? Its like the writer had no clue at all. On a mini that had the most popular characters go ahead, despite the power difference, like Natasha against WonderMan. What is there to rationalize? Context speaks for itself.

Say, since you take off panels contests in great estimation, i bet you take the ones involving Wolverine as a big deal, dont you?

Originally posted by olympian
Oh, he did cracked more jokes. Didnt you saw him laugthing? You probably could see it if you looked at the whole pages instead just the two panels where he does *something*.
I'm sure that was an attempted insult at my intelligence, but those don't work when they don't make sense.

Herc was cracking jokes until Wolverine unleashed his claws. Then? "Zounds!" Sure herc started laughin it up when Logan got his claws stuck in the table.. You know which one, the one that Herc was using to hide behind. But after he got floored he was done crackin jokes again wasn't he?

Originally posted by olympian
"You cant use foregein weapons"
(but he used the table to make the other man trip)
"that doesnt count, arsehole".
Of course, of course.

Horrid misrepresentation of the points being made here. You thought all that happened in both other encounters was Wolverine getting "tossed around" which is clearly another misrepresentation, when on one of those occasions he got floored and on BOTH of those occasions he was scared of Wolverine's claws.

The important point? He's afraid of those claws for a reason, when he doesn't have a table or Cap's shield to hide behind what would happen? Given the two pages we see of the Hulk/Wolverine fight in CoC2 the answer is quite obvious.

Wolverine flooring Herc was only used to point out that those events were not just Wolverine getting tossed around as you had stated.

Originally posted by olympian
Dont have Logan sneak on him or bring backup. How about it?
In a h2h... How about it indeed, since we've seen the result of that kind of fight. Herc on the floor unconscious.

Originally posted by olympian
He was certainly doing better than the time the other mudball lost against Wolverine alone, wouldnt you think?

Uh no. He was losing against Wolverine without landing one blow or sticking one defensive maneuver. And Wolverine was perfectly calm. The Wendigo that got downed in uncanny lost to a berserker Wolverine. The same kind of Wolverine who's had Hulk on the ropes.

Originally posted by olympian
This isent rocket science, kid. I mean, damn.
Clearly; issues concerning gravity, retrofires, geosynchronous orbits, satellite periods, AU, perigees, and apogees aren't a part of this particular discussion concerning your inability to accept that Logan downs Hulk level Wendigo's and Herc level threats... yeah I'm IN a rocket science class btw...

Nice failed attempt at belittling my intelligence though.. AGAIN...

Now if we're to look at you're level of intelligence you think/stated that THIS was Wendigo "doing good" here:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/TheIncredibleHulkv2-181-05.jpg
Yup. He's doin a hell of a job ain't he?

Originally posted by olympian
I find it weird that you say he "was losing" when after the three panels where Wolverine spends the time cutting him, he was still figthing the Hulk.

You WOULD find it weird since your Herc blinders prohibit you from initiating any sort of rational logic in this argument. I find it weird that you think Wendigo who was staggering back, weakening and unable to land a hit or put up a defense against Logan was doing "better" than one who also lost.. Especially considering that Wendigo at least was able to almost KO him in 3 hits...



Originally posted by olympian
Use your brains and compare both showings. How hard is it?

Nice... So if someone argues that a creature who is always represented as a brick WAS in fact a brick that's not using brains... I love your boundless irrationalities.

Like you using your "brains" to dictate that Nightcrawler and Vindi weren't treating Wendi as a brick threat.. lol. How else should they have responded?

How about when you used your "brains" to determine Vindicator wasn't around in that instance.. lmao... what a joke.

As for what I asked?
Proof?
Nope?
Okay, no proof then...

Originally posted by olympian
I brougth the hybrid to the obvious comparations about the different Wendigo.
Exactly, you brought up the hybrid Wendigo as a red herring to Wolverine serving another Wendigo who was a threat to a Strange level villain...
Nice defection.

Originally posted by olympian
That every Wendigo is different. Because of the host. Its not a depowerment issue. Wich is what you keep bringing up:
"oh, your talking about him being depowered!!"
No, im not. You dont know a background of a character, dont discuss it.

It IS a depowerment issue when every Wendigo is portrayed as a brick, When wendigo is stated to be at brick level strength in every handbook entry and card bio he has where strength is stated. For those first two factors to be true, and then to have you sit there and insist that the Wendigo Wolverine fought was of a lower level IS an argument to the depowerment of the character.

Lol I don't know the history of the character based on what proof? The fact that I don't agree with you that Uncanny Wendigo wasn't a Hulk level brick? Wow...

Mauvais was a more powerful Wendigo because he already started out a Strange level foe. That's a MASSIVE difference in power. But.. you think that one man who engages in semi-regular exercise is going to serve as a better host for the curse than ANOTHER man who engages in semi-regular exercise? There was no clear difference between the hosts, and none between the Wendigo's...



Originally posted by olympian
He in two different ocassions to Wolverine and Snowbird alone. The others didnt. Wrong. The one your very premise is built on was losing and DID lose to Wolverine. You keep insisting that Wolverine could not have done it without Hulk's assistance, but that's purely your speculation. And it's speculation that doesn't even fit the panels or suggestion of what was taking place.. Wolverine landing hits, Wendigo staggering back, unable to defend himself, and weakening....

You can't honestly say that two Hulk punches served more damage than he managed to make in two entire fights previously to Wolverine taking Wendigo down.
Hulk even states to his own amazement that Wolverine could do what he failed to do.

Originally posted by olympian
Tell, do you regard the same Wendigo who got killed by Saber with the same level as the ones who always fougth Hulk together with someone else?
Yes. That Wendigo shrugged off Sasquatches attack, and brought Sas down faster than Sasquatch could even defend himself. It stands to reason he was within the same scope of power...

Again, every Wendigo is in the same level of brickhood given their hosts are similar... Wendigo just doesn't fair well with Lupins.
This has been evidenced 4 times already.

Originally posted by olympian
I keep telling this isent rocket science, and you dont really need a university degree to understand it. But you are made of fail.
When you're capable of spelling "isn't" correctly perhaps you can attempt to attack my intelligence without looking like a dipshit.
So far the only one failing here is yourself.. I've asked you to bring proof to the table at least 3 times now and thus far you've done nothing but support your speculation with more speculation.

You've defaulted to:
ad hominem
ad ignorantiam
ad nauseam
Circulus in demonstrando
and the fallacy of the complex question

You're doing enough "failing" for the both of us.

Originally posted by olympian
Colossus isent top tier. And unless those two teams had the likes of Phoenix or Juggernaut and have them being beaten head on, that doesnt make Wolverine a top tier teamwrecker, either.
You have no idea who the 'Ngarai are do you?
ONE 'Ngarai drone was able to give Hulk all hell... ONE DRONE... Kierrok was the lord of the 'Ngarai, and Wolverine's beaten him after killing hundreds of those same drones.

And at the time Colossus was top tier enough to be standing toe to toe with Juggernaught, and Gladiator so I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Originally posted by olympian
Arkon isent a physical top tier. Just like Logan what makes him dangerous is the weapons he sports.
Tell that to Thor, WonderMan, and Colossus.

Originally posted by olympian
Having troubles with someone doesnt translate into beating them. Wich is what you sport.
And yet Wolverine has beaten him too. Thing is, you want to pretend that just because Wendigo went up against Hulk in host A and didn't in host B that A was clearly a far more powerful version in spite of the fact that both had the same type of showing against Wolverine.

Again, all you think that happened was Wolverine getting humiliated.. it's a misinterpretation or a misrepresentation of what happened in their first encounter for sure, Herc was on his ass. He needed the shield to protect himself from being skewered. You think that Herc with Cap's shield is going to manage the same result as he would without, ignoring WHY he needs a shield in the first place.

And no. Unlike Hulk, Hercules doesn't sport a liquid metal like healing factor, or get multitudes stronger and more durable as a fight progresses.

Originally posted by olympian
Despite the fact he never did to Green Hulk what he only accomplished with Gray. And the guy still got up.

Ahem... He's beaten almost killed Savage Hulk...
He has at least several other wins over a green version of Hulk as well. And yes Hulk got up.. because he has a liquid metal healing factor... herc doesn't...


Originally posted by olympian
"Brick" is a defination that only refers to someone who mainly relies in strength. Handbook piece? Its for my toilet.
His visual appearance? Why do you bring that up when its obvious that i am talking about the differences in power showings? Well I can't help you if you're going to clearly give your own arguments the benefit of the doubt in spite of being against ALL forms of evidence.
I bring it up to further the point that Wendigo is ALWAYS portrayed as a brick. He's never had an incarnation that wasn't. Which is what your argument beckons one to believe.


Originally posted by olympian
Whatever initial intention they may had, i think the actual resume speaks for himself. He may scare away people like a huge threat such as Hulk, but when it comes down to it, what he did simply isent top tier material.

And all that resume says is that Wendigo< Wolverine, or Snowbird as a Wolverine.
That doesn't = Wendigo<<<Hulk. Wendigo clearly does better against brute force, and concussive force than he does against evisceration.

What he did was almost KO logan in two or three hits... Something that characters like Wonderman, Hulk himself, and Moses Magnum were failing to do at the time.

Originally posted by olympian
This isent a unique example in comic books. "Look, Apocalypse is going to return migthier than ever"
"Oh, he lost to Colossus. Oh well, maybe he wasent that migthy this time".
Given that this has nothing to do with our discussion you'll have to excuse me if I ignore it.

Originally posted by olympian
I keep saying im ok with it, you keep bring up i need to rationalize something. Someone is projecting insecurity, here.
"off panel"
"that's the best he can do"... Yeah that sounds "okay with it".

Originally posted by olympian
Clameront Clearly gave a big deal of though about it. The off panel win is an amazing description on how someone like *bone claw* Wolverine can take down Hercules. And what we saw was..what? Its like the writer had no clue at all. On a mini that had the most popular characters go ahead, despite the power difference, like Natasha against WonderMan. What is there to rationalize? Context speaks for itself.
Exactly. So Wolverine>Herc without anything to shield himself with, cause that's the context we got.

Originally posted by olympian
Say, since you take off panels contests in great estimation, i bet you take the ones involving Wolverine as a big deal, dont you? This sentence doesn't even begin to make sense. C'mon formulating a coherent thought in the English language "isn't rocket science kid"...

Which by the way is ridiculous, assuming that I AM younger than you for you to keep tossing that bit into the debate as if age somehow , makes a difference where it concerns the validation of comic book proof... Something you continuously fail to provide.

Originally posted by jinzin
Given that this has nothing to do with our discussion you'll have to excuse me if I ignore it.

Please, do so. Its what you have been doing all along.

Could it be more appearant that the reason you champion that single showing as something grand and amazing (wich certainly wasent in comparation with some of the others) as nothing but an attempt to make Wolverine pass out as something akin to a "top tier"?

I guess Snowbird is as well. But i disgress:

One particular Wendigo showing goes down to either Snow and Logan alone, while other particular showings (that we are discussing as well) wer only taken care off by teamwork. Is it a math problem?

In reality, it cant be anything else, when you sport an opinion that Logan would take the majority against a credible physical top tier like Hercules or even perhaps take ties with Hulk, something he also never did.

Originally posted by jinzin
This sentence doesn't even begin to make sense. C'mon formulating a coherent thought in the English language "isn't rocket science kid"...

Given your powerful inability to grasp a simple comparation issue, to pompously ignore what is obvious, there is no way i can adress you, other than this way.

Worse than this, is only if i end up having to draw it for you.

Originally posted by jinzin
Exactly. So Wolverine>Herc without anything to shield himself with, cause that's the context we got.

Are you forgetting the backup he had and the fact he needed a sneak?

Take that all out, and we have a whole different setting. Considering how Logan got the adamantium claws, you shouldnt cry if someone rends them useless. Its fair game. Especially when he isent figthing alone.

Originally posted by jinzin
"off panel""that's the best he can do"... Yeah that sounds "okay with it".

But it is. He did in an off panel act something he never came close to acomplish otherwise. Im perfectably okay with the particular writer`s view on it. Or should i say, the lack thereof?

Originally posted by olympian
Please, do so. Its what you have been doing all along.
That's just what i do with irrelivant nonsense.

Originally posted by olympian
Could it be more appearant that the reason you champion that single showing as something grand and amazing (wich certainly wasent in comparation with some of the others) as nothing but an attempt to make Wolverine pass out as something akin to a "top tier"?
Nope. Wolverine is what he is. I use feats as a measurment of that, and I never try to deny his low showings or exaggurate his higher ones. I simply state what he's done and leave the estimation of his "status" up to those who choose to read my posts, listen to my rationale, and uphold facts as evidence.. You clearly have an aversion to that last part.

Originally posted by olympian
I guess Snowbird is as well. But i disgress:

Ignoring that Batman has a lump of Kryptonite in his hand when he beats Superman doesn't make him a top tier but I digress.

Originally posted by olympian
One particular Wendigo showing goes down to either Snow and Logan alone, while other particular showings (that we are discussing as well) wer only taken care off by teamwork. Is it a math problem?

No it's a comprehension problem on your behalf. The Wendigo's in other showings faired no better. You keep ignoring that fact.

Originally posted by olympian
In reality, it cant be anything else, when you sport an opinion that Logan would take the majority against a credible physical top tier like Hercules or even perhaps take ties with Hulk, something he also never did.
Nothing else than what? And what reality are you talking about? I'm talking about 616 ...
There's no credible reason why Herc should take a majority over Logan who is his 1on1 h2h superior. Logan has several advantages over Logan while Herc only has strength as an advantage over Logan... and heaven forbid! It's not like Wolverine's ever had to face down super strength before. Or like he's been doing so since day one.

Hulk's a different matter and I've alreay stated multiple times that Hulk would take a majority over Wolverine... So forgive me if I just set aflame that particular strawman.

Originally posted by olympian
Given your powerful inability to grasp a simple comparation issue, to pompously ignore what is obvious, there is no way i can adress you, other than this way.
How can you compare those two feats? There's only ONE point of comparison, Wolverine. Wendigo didn't do well against Wolveirne in either case.

Originally posted by olympian
Worse than this, is only if i end up having to draw it for you. You insisting speculation is a fact with more speculation is a logical fallacy.. Not proof.



Originally posted by olympian
Are you forgetting the backup he had and the fact he needed a sneak?
I'm talking about CoC2

In that reference are you forgetting the fact that he had Cap's shield? or just ignoring it like everything else?

Originally posted by olympian
Take that all out, and we have a whole different setting. Considering how Logan got the adamantium claws, you shouldnt cry if someone rends them useless. Its fair game. Especially when he isent figthing alone. No one was really fighting Herc...
Wolverine went for one attack and he blocked it with a foreign object he wouldn't have in a forum fight, that he DIDN'T have in CoC2... I'm not crying or whinning like you imagine. I'm simply calling out these facts since you think Herc with Cap's shield is = Herc without Cap's shield... which is ludicrous.



Originally posted by olympian
But it is. He did in an off panel act something he never came close to acomplish otherwise. Im perfectably okay with the particular writer`s view on it. Or should i say, the lack thereof? Wasn't entirely off panel.
He has come close to accomplishing it otherwise.. he's beaten people on hercs level, above hercs level and had herc on his ass and scared of his claws two times.

You clearly misrepresent arguments, feats, and interpretations so you can ignore what you don't like... Whatever.

and why is losing to Snowbird a bad thing again?

Originally posted by -K-M-
and why is losing to Snowbird a bad thing again?

Yeah, I'm still trying to figure that one out Munge.


I'm calling you munge cause I like it better.

I've heard worse
----
Sidenote for those who are interested. I recently redid the Wendigo respect thread and made it more organized

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t481568.html

Originally posted by -K-M-
I've heard worse
----
Sidenote for those who are interested. I recently redid the Wendigo respect thread and made it more organized

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t481568.html

either that or the mungester!

Originally posted by jinzin
either that or the mungester!

I hate you

Originally posted by jinzin
Nope. Wolverine is what he is. I use feats as a measurment of that, and I never try to deny his low showings or exaggurate his higher ones. I simply state what he's done and leave the estimation of his "status" up to those who choose to read my posts, listen to my rationale, and uphold facts as evidenceB]

And im using what it is. Him being bitchslapped and only doing one good thing. If you used brains you would see that the whole table thing is even a bad showing for either character.

One, for Hercules, since Logan in that same story already showed that his strength alone couldnt even budge the guy (and thus a table toss shouldnt do anything) and Two because Logan`s claws shouldnt had been stuck in a wooden table of all places, and cut it like butter. But it didnt.

Originally posted by jinzin
Ignoring that Batman has a lump of Kryptonite in his hand when he beats Superman doesn't make him a top tier but I digress.B]

Are you saying that Logan is the clear underdog?

If Hercules doenst have any adamantium, can you tell us, why making the claws useless is a tactic he shouldnt use at all?

Originally posted by jinzin
No it's a comprehension problem on your behalf. The Wendigo's in other showings faired no better. You keep ignoring that fact. B]

Ah i see. Its IS a reading comprehention problem. You dont know how to compare showings. Why didnt you said so?

Originally posted by jinzin
Logan has several advantages over Logan while Herc only has strength as an advantage over Logan... and heaven forbid! It's not like Wolverine's ever had to face down super strength before. Or like he's been doing so since day one.B]

Can you explain us how a bone claw Wolverine took out immortal Hercules? Can you ran down the whole thing to us? If you cant and just accept it as something it just happened, its cool with me. But dont try to act like it wasent sheer popularity that drove out the result, especially in the circunstances both charaters wer presented at the time. And it wasent an unique case in those series.

I could certaily think that a standart Logan would have the shot, albeigh not the majority of the times like you seem to champion, but bone claw? Off panel?

If Hercules got a win over Hulk on an off panel without showcasing any action whatsoever on how he acomplished that, not one person would take it seriously. Well, except you, so in case it does happen in the future i can count surely on your support.

Originally posted by jinzin
How can you compare those two feats? There's only ONE point of comparison, Wolverine. Wendigo didn't do well against Wolveirne in either caseB]

Some Wendigo wer only and always beaten by teamwork, Logan included. Another wasent. Stop being stubburn.

Originally posted by jinzin
In that reference are you forgetting the fact that he had Cap's shield? or just ignoring it like everything else?B]

No. Are you forgetting Logan had backup and attacked before there was even a figth?

Originally posted by jinzin
No one was really fighting Herc... B]

Wich is pure balloney. Logan attacked Hercules before he ran down on them. Then Iron Man posed a threath on him that they would take him down. But surely, it wasent for figthing porpuses *winks*

Originally posted by jinzin
Wolverine went for one attack and he blocked it with a foreign object he wouldn't have in a forum fight, that he DIDN'T have in CoC2... I'm not crying or whinning like you imagine. I'm simply calling out these facts since you think Herc with Cap's shield is = Herc without Cap's shield... which is ludicrous.B]

You know what else he didnt had in COC2? Adamantium.

Originally posted by jinzin
Wasn't entirely off panel.B]

We saw two panels alone. One of the beginning of the figth and one in the end. And nothing in the middle.

So, what exactly was On panel other than, you know NOT how the figth went?

In the end, all he accomplished so far was make someone stronger than him trip over, in a way that said person shouldnt, and using something he shouldnt be stuck with in the first place. Logan having a clear advantage hand to hand nowadays is something i find even arguable at best. And its not like with all his migthy durability he hasent been knocked out with strength alone.

He sure can cut someone like Hercules. But can he beat someone like that with such cut alone?

But hey, more power to you. Its not like you are going to learn to compare different showings or change your tune.

Originally posted by -K-M-
and why is losing to Snowbird a bad thing again?

It isent, but it sure as hell isent as impressive to be taken down on its lonesome by Snowbird when she is sporting an animal form, compared with being taken down by a teamwork of heavier hitters.

That much should be obvious to you, given how you are usually a capable poster.

Originally posted by olympian
And im using what it is. Him being bitchslapped and only doing one good thing. If you used brains you would see that the whole table thing is even a bad showing for either character.

I don't know at which point you think that I defended that it wasn't. Another nice strawman though, You're getting good at making those, I know a farmer who could use your help to make scarecrows..
"only doing one good thing" huh? More like three... Scaring Hercules, forcing him into shielding himself, and florring Hercules on his ass... It isn't the "humiliation" you keep insisting that it was.

Originally posted by olympian
One, for Hercules, since Logan in that same story already showed that his strength alone couldnt even budge the guy (and thus a table toss shouldnt do anything) and Two because Logan`s claws shouldnt had been stuck in a wooden table of all places, and cut it like butter. But it didnt.
Yeah I didn't defend that it was good writing for either character so this red herring like your others is useless to the discussion at hand.

Originally posted by olympian
Are you saying that Logan is the clear underdog? Once again unable to follow trains of thought. No, what I'm saying is that instead of Wendigo being a weaker version when Wolverine beats him, that he's simply more vulnerable to the types of damage that Wolverine dishes out, and much more vulnerable to it when it's dished out by Lupins.

What you're doing here, arguing that the versions of Wendigo that Wolverine and Sabretooth beat is akin to looking at a fight between Bats with Kryptonite and Supes, watching Supes get owned, and concluding that it was a weaker version of Superman instead of realizing that it was the Kryptonite that put him down.

Originally posted by olympian
If Hercules doenst have any adamantium, can you tell us, why making the claws useless is a tactic he shouldnt use at all?
I'm going to assume you're back onto the shield bit.
I never said Hercules "shouldn't use a shield"... if he can, he very much should for the sake of his life use a shield. What I'm alluding to is that in any typical 1on1 or forum fight he wouldn't have one. Thus, you coming to the conclusion that Wolverine "shouldn't beat Herc" based on two occassions where he had for all intents and purposes a plot device, is a skewed perception on the matter.

Originally posted by olympian
Ah i see. Its IS a reading comprehention problem. You dont know how to compare showings. Why didnt you said so?

Originally posted by jinzin
No it's a comprehension problem on your behalf.
Look, I know you were trying to use my own quote against me because at this point all you have are petty insults to throw about when you've run out of wild speculation, but once again, if you're going to try to insult my intelligence the least you could do is keep from looking like an ass when you do so. You've basically just inadvertantly admitted to having a reading comprehension problem...


Originally posted by olympian
Can you explain us how a bone claw Wolverine took out immortal Hercules? Can you ran down the whole thing to us? If you cant and just accept it as something it just happened, its cool with me. But dont try to act like it wasent sheer popularity that drove out the result, especially in the circunstances both charaters wer presented at the time. And it wasent an unique case in those series.
By slashing, stabbing and otherwise beating the shit out of him?
Wolverine bone claws were capible of cutting up bricks like Hulk, Wendigo, Psychoman, Prime Sentinals, a Skrull Thing, and Warbird. It's no big deal to add Herc to that list too.

Originally posted by olympian
I could certaily think that a standart Logan would have the shot, albeigh not the majority of the times like you seem to champion, but bone claw? Off panel?
Yup.. considering his showings against the previously described bricks on panel...

Originally posted by olympian
If Hercules got a win over Hulk on an off panel without showcasing any action whatsoever on how he acomplished that, not one person would take it seriously. Well, except you, so in case it does happen in the future i can count surely on your support.
Well if it doesn't show ANY action? Yeah that'd might as well be hyperbole. If it gives two panels like WHAT HAPPENED in the fight we're discussing, One with Herc punching Hulk, and another with Hulk KOed. it'd very much be admissible as evidence.

Originally posted by olympian
Some Wendigo wer only and always beaten by teamwork, Logan included. Another wasent. Stop being stubburn.
Me not submitting to your SPEC-U-LATION is not stubborn it's being objective. You keep insisting that the Wendigo in Hulk181 was beaten with teamwork and that that's the only way he could have been beaten, but he was losing his fight with Wolverine before teamwork ever became a factor so teamwork in that instance is irrelivent.

Originally posted by olympian
No. Are you forgetting Logan had backup and attacked before there was even a figth?
Are you forgetting that he had Cap's shield? lol.

Originally posted by olympian
Wich is pure balloney. Logan attacked Hercules before he ran down on them. Then Iron Man posed a threath on him that they would take him down. But surely, it wasent for figthing porpuses *winks* The only one who attacked Herc was Wolverine no one else made a move..

Originally posted by olympian
You know what else he didnt had in COC2? Adamantium. Lol, aside from the fact that my post you responded to here was reffering to Hercules and your lack of specification leads one to believe that you're ALSO referring to Hercules, I know you mean Wolverine... This though, only goes to show how you can't follow trains of thought and DO have comprehension problems... Just a tip for the future.. Specifiy.

Anyways... So what? Wolverine with bone claws could still take brick punches and deliver bricks damage. His senses were heightened even further, he was faster, stronger, and his HF was unhindered...

Originally posted by olympian
We saw two panels alone. One of the beginning of the figth and one in the end. And nothing in the middle. Well at least you're acknowledging that there were in fact two panels now lol.

Originally posted by olympian
So, what exactly was On panel other than, you know NOT how the figth went? And that invalidates it? We saw a little of how the fight went, both characters facing eachother with Logan landing a blow and Hercules reeling back from said blow.

Originally posted by olympian
In the end, all he accomplished so far was make someone stronger than him trip over, in a way that said person shouldnt, and using something he shouldnt be stuck with in the first place.
You say this as if Hercules would have faired just as well had he taken the claw shot.


Originally posted by olympian
Logan having a clear advantage hand to hand nowadays is something i find even arguable at best. And its not like with all his migthy durability he hasent been knocked out with strength alone.
Wolverine has every advantage except strength. That's all Hercules brings to the table between the two. Wolverine has been KOed by strength sure, but not a majority of the time, and even less without compounding circumstances.

Originally posted by olympian
He sure can cut someone like Hercules. But can he beat someone like that with such cut alone?

Considering he has to Herc and to Namor.
Consdering he's done it to bigger characters with healing factors like Abomination, Hulk, and Wendigo.

Yeah cutting, stabbing, and chopping'll do just fine.

Originally posted by olympian
But hey, more power to you. Its not like you are going to learn to compare different showings or change your tune. And it's not like your going to learn to bring proof to back your wild claims up... but whatever.

Originally posted by olympian
It isent, but it sure as hell isent as impressive to be taken down on its lonesome by Snowbird when she is sporting an animal form, compared with being taken down by a teamwork of heavier hitters.

That much should be obvious to you, given how you are usually a capable poster.

*Shrugs* She is powered by the same mystical energies as the Wendigo, for all we know that could have played a factor. She also can become Wendigo, but that's neither here nor there

comes down to h2h skills for me. wendigo has none. herc could defend himself. his durability is also pretty retarded though often underrated, as are his h2h skills. his claws are not unbreakable and while they would/could damage herc, the damage would not be as extensive as the damage wolvie could do even though wendy is so much stronger.

wolvie is more of a threat to herc than wendigo is. still say immortal herc takes him almost every time.

Originally posted by leonidas
comes down to h2h skills for me. wendigo has none. herc could defend himself. his durability is also pretty retarded though often underrated, as are his h2h skills. his claws are not unbreakable and while they would/could damage herc, the damage would not be as extensive as the damage wolvie could do even though wendy is so much stronger.

wolvie is more of a threat to herc than wendigo is. still say immortal herc takes him almost every time.

.......ummm...lulz?

Originally posted by -K-M-
.......ummm...lulz?

nah.

though i'll concede it may depend on the host. the 'typical' wendigo loses almost everytime imo.

Originally posted by leonidas
nah.

though i'll concede it may depend on the host. the 'typical' wendigo loses almost everytime imo.

Uh huh...

Lets ignore the fact Hulk has always needed aid from someone else to help put Wendigo down, but following your logic Hercules should beat Hulk every time.

Not sure if your overestimating Hercules, or underestimating Wendigo

if hulk didn't get stronger i'd say he'd beat him every time, yes. could be you're underestimating herc.

Originally posted by leonidas
if hulk didn't get stronger i'd say he'd beat him every time, yes. could be you're underestimating herc.

No not at all, especially how it takes Hulk + to beat Wendigo

Definetly not the case, I know Wendigo's track record and I know what he has done and I know people stronger and more powerful then Hercules have failed against different hosts before. So with your logic, Hercules wins practically everytime with skill, even though that never helped him with the Hulk

Originally posted by leonidas
comes down to h2h skills for me. wendigo has none. herc could defend himself. his durability is also pretty retarded though often underrated, as are his h2h skills. his claws are not unbreakable and while they would/could damage herc, the damage would not be as extensive as the damage wolvie could do even though wendy is so much stronger.

wolvie is more of a threat to herc than wendigo is. still say immortal herc takes him almost every time. Wendigo may lack any sort of h2h skill, but his honed instincts should make up for that to some extent.

I don't think that Wendigo's claws not being unbreakable has anything to do with the outcome of this fight. If they make contact they're going to draw blood. They're most likely not going to break or shatter during the fight either so I fail to see how that plays into the odds whatsoever.
Likewise, if Wendigo does cut Herc with his claws they will cause damage. Just because the damage wouldn't be as extensive as that of Wolverine's, Wendigo's still a massive creature, his claws should be close to Sabretooth's in size and that's more than enough to gut Herc.
Also, Wendigo isn't as nearly as one demensional in the damage he can dish out as Wolverine is to a guy like Hercules. While his claws are nice additions, his strength is enough to go toe to toe with characters like Hulk and Squatch, uprooting entire landscapes and such.
Claw strikes don't even have to be lethal to effect Hercules' performance.
If Wendigo landed even two claw blows, that'd be enough to effect Herc.
The combination of punishment between evisceration and brute force dished out by the Wendigo would definitely compound on Hercules.
On the other hand, any damage Hercules dishes out is going to heal on Wendigo. And, since his HF is supplied by the magic of a curse instead of underlining factors like it is for Logan, the Damage Hercules dished out won't even have a chance to catch up to Wendigo unless Hercules is successful in using a continous barrage on Wendigo before Wendi can really defend himself.

Which ain't likely.. and why?
Because Wendigo is commonly portrayed as extremely quick for such a large brick type. Hercules usually does well against monsters akin to Wendi because he's so much faster than they are, he won't have any such advantage on Wendigo.

I will agree that Hercules' fighting ability, intelligence, and experience will play into him getting wins over Wendigo. But nearly every time? Hell no.
For the majority?... Well I thought at least that until I wrote this post.. Now I'm not quite convinced.


As for Herc vs. Logan... Well, if what Crusader did to Thor is any indication of what cutting and stabbing can do to an immortal than I have to disagree with that as well.

that's not exactly what i said. his skill would enable him to avoid the claws which would do the most damage. i was comparing his ability to use his skill effectively against wendigo against that particular inability against wolvie because wolvie is better h2h than he is. hence wolvie's claws would be a greater danger imo because herc wouldn't be able to fend them off as readily as he could wendigo's. his skill would help him more in this fight so his strength could win the day.

in straight up physical combat there really aren't many (any?) flat out more powerful than hercules at this level. he's beaten thor and stalemated every hulk save the ww version. hulk's healing and increasing strength are what enables him to stalemate hercules in their battles. hercules rarely exhibits h2h skill when battling hulk (other than when he was mortal, of course . . .) he'd have no choice against wendigo with his claws. wendigo has good healing and endurance as well but as good as it is, it isn't at hulk-level. not saying it would be easy, but i still say herc takes wendigo.

Lulz again, "still say immortal herc takes him almost every time."

Yeah Herc has stalemated the Hulk, but who do you think clearly had the advantage in the fight? While Hulk every time has needed back up to take on Wendigo

Originally posted by jinzin
Wendigo may lack any sort of h2h skill, but his honed instincts should make up for that to some extent.

to some extent is exactly right. not enough of an extent imo.



herc's durability is underrated. his claws would certainly hurt but they wouldn't cut as deeply as wolverine's would.



disagree.



that's true, but he would still need to connect several times. that's where the skill issue comes in.



meh. you're speculating. it would depend on the severity of the strikes.



again i disagree. he typically does well against this style foe because he's more skilled. compound that with his grappling skills and he is simply too much in h2h battles for most at this level.



ah well. we'll agree to disagree.



you misinterpretted what i said. when i said herc wins almost everytime, i was referencing wendigo, not wolverine. that particular fight is a lot more unclear in my mind. this one i don't have a lot of doubt about for whatever reason.

Originally posted by leonidas
that's not exactly what i said. his skill would enable him to avoid the claws which would do the most damage. i was comparing his ability to use his skill effectively against wendigo against that particular inability against wolvie because wolvie is better h2h than he is. hence wolvie's claws would be a greater danger imo because herc wouldn't be able to fend them off as readily as he could wendigo's. his skill would help him more in this fight so his strength could win the day. I simply believe your overesimtating how effectively he could use that skill against someone as fast AND powerful as Wendigo is.
It might help him a bit sure. But it's not going to make him untouchable by any means. I've never seen any display of skill from Herc that would imply such either.

Originally posted by leonidas
in straight up physical combat there really aren't many (any?) flat out more powerful than hercules at this level. he's beaten thor and stalemated every hulk save the ww version. . Perhaps it's that I haven't read his Hulk fights in recent years but I seem to recall him losing or at the least being on the run/avoiding/or team up against Hulk's blows as much as possible in the several encounters I remember.

Originally posted by leonidas
hulk's healing and increasing strength are what enables him to stalemate hercules in their battles. hercules rarely exhibits h2h skill when battling hulk (other than when he was mortal, of course . . .) he'd have no choice against wendigo with his claws. wendigo has good healing and endurance as well but as good as it is, it isn't at hulk-level. not saying it would be easy, but i still say herc takes wendigo. Wendigo's healing may not be at Hulk level but it's close enough. It had Wendigo running around without a scratch a minute after Logan had ripped him to shreds. It's advantagous enough to matter in a fight and it's more than Hercs sportin. Wendigo doesn't have to get stronger for Hulk to need assistance taking him down in nearly every encounter they've had, he's just that powerful to begin with. And once again, the damage he dishes out will multiply. The damage he soaks up won't.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Lulz again, "still say immortal herc takes him almost every time."

Yeah Herc has stalemated the Hulk, but who do you think clearly had the advantage in the fight? While Hulk every time has needed back up to take on Wendigo

in which fight? there maybe a fight i'm forgetting, but on at least 2 occasions herc was shown as having the advantage. in their first meeting and again in the champions meeting.

anyway . . . i'm not really out to change your mind on this battle, since i doubt anyone could. but yeah, i'd say 8/10 herc.

Originally posted by leonidas
herc's durability is underrated. his claws would certainly hurt but they wouldn't cut as deeply as wolverine's would.
Not at all, we're just talking about a character with Hulk level durability and strength he should be able to eviscerate Herc without much resistance if he lands a good hit.

Originally posted by leonidas
disagree. Why? he gutted She-Hulk without even trying. Herc may be more durable, but so much more durable that it'd make a difference to a Wendigo that IS trying? I dunno about that.



Originally posted by leonidas
that's true, but he would still need to connect several times. that's where the skill issue comes in.
Again, I agree that his skill will help him evade some attacks, but for Wendigo's claws not to be a factor Wnedigo would have to get dropped before landing those several hits. In a 1on1 confrontation with Hercules, when all Herc has is brute strength which doesn't work well on Wendi in the first place. I don't see that happening.


Originally posted by leonidas
meh. you're speculating. it would depend on the severity of the strikes. I'm speculating based on what I've seen one sword slash do to Thor, and one noncholant claw strike did to She-Hulk so it's not entirely without merit.

Originally posted by leonidas
again i disagree. he typically does well against this style foe because he's more skilled. compound that with his grappling skills and he is simply too much in h2h battles for most at this level. Most perhaps. I don't think Wendigo typically falls under that category however.

Originally posted by leonidas
you misinterpretted what i said. when i said herc wins almost everytime, i was referencing wendigo, not wolverine. that particular fight is a lot more unclear in my mind. this one i don't have a lot of doubt about for whatever reason.


"wolvie is more of a threat to herc than wendigo is. still say immortal herc takes him almost every time."

Wait. So that second sentence is a reference to Wendigo then? If so, my mistake.

Originally posted by jinzin
I simply believe your overesimtating how effectively he could use that skill against someone as fast AND powerful as Wendigo is.
It might help him a bit sure. But it's not going to make him untouchable by any means. I've never seen any display of skill from Herc that would imply such either.

hence the dilemma. i think you're underestimating it AND herc's pure strength. he's dealt with hulk for an extended time in his mindless state. yes there were others, but herc was clearly the 'point-man' in the battle.



nah. not really accurate at all my friend.



you make it seem as though he can't be hurt or damaged. that's inaccurate. great physical force can and has dropped him in the past. a banner-controlled hulk (the weakest version of the character) and a 75-ton sasquatch took him out with 2 trees. in that battle banner-hulk hurt him and may have been able to finish him if he didn't stop to talk. herc could do the same thing but he'd hit a LOT harder and incorporate his own skills as well. there may be some hosts or versions of the curse that would be too much for herc, but the wendigo's i've seen would lose to hercules.

Originally posted by jinzin
Not at all, we're just talking about a character with Hulk level durability and strength he should be able to eviscerate Herc without much resistance if he lands a good hit.

damn you type fast.

anyway, IF is the big thing.



if herc used his skills to the max as he was FORCED to do while mortal when he fought the hulk he'd be a much greater theat than he even is now. the choke hold he used on hulk while mortal would certainly be enough to take hulk out if he used it while in immortal form. the same choke took out thor pretty easily. thor was saved by summoning a bolt of lightning. herc really only needs to evade the claws, use his choke hold and i really don't see how wendigo could escape. he couldn't overpower herc like hulk overpowered mortal herc, and if thor couldn't escape . . .




the claws WOULD do damage, but i think he could evade them long enough for his skill to allow him to take wendigo out.



yeah, reading it again i can see where you were confused. but yes i was referencing wendigo still.

Originally posted by leonidas
in which fight? there maybe a fight i'm forgetting, but on at least 2 occasions herc was shown as having the advantage. in their first meeting and again in the champions meeting.

anyway . . . i'm not really out to change your mind on this battle, since i doubt anyone could. but yeah, i'd say 8/10 herc.

Show me them.

Nice, but then again I'm actually looking at how it takes more then the Hulk to put Wendigo down and entire teams, but silly me. Wow, 8/10? yeah no.

Originally posted by leonidas
the claws WOULD do damage, but i think he could evade them long enough for his skill to allow him to take wendigo out.

great physical force can and has dropped him in the past. a banner-controlled hulk (the weakest version of the character) and a 75-ton sasquatch took him out with 2 trees.

You do realize Wendigo has tagged Nightcrawler and Aurora who are both faster then Hercules

Actually Hulk was slipping back into Savage mode in that fight, and Sasquatch 75 tons? *snickers*

Originally posted by leonidas
hence the dilemma. i think you're underestimating it AND herc's pure strength. he's dealt with hulk for an extended time in his mindless state. yes there were others, but herc was clearly the 'point-man' in the battle. But there WERE others..
I'd view the feat as a slightly more impressive feat if those others were a bunch of pushover but they were also A-listers...

Originally posted by leonidas
nah. not really accurate at all my friend. Are these fights in the Herc repect thread. If I'm so innaccurate perhaps I'll take a gander.



Originally posted by leonidas
you make it seem as though he can't be hurt or damaged. that's inaccurate. great physical force can and has dropped him in the past. a banner-controlled hulk (the weakest version of the character) and a 75-ton sasquatch took him out with 2 trees. in that battle banner-hulk hurt him and may have been able to finish him if he didn't stop to talk. herc could do the same thing but he'd hit a LOT harder and incorporate his own skills as well. there may be some hosts or versions of the curse that would be too much for herc, but the wendigo's i've seen would lose to hercules. Not really, I'm just stating what he's been shown to do.
Aside from that I agree with Mungi on the point to the Hulk/Squatch fight.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Show me them.

Nice, but then again I'm actually looking at how it takes more then the Hulk to put Wendigo down and entire teams, but silly me. Wow, 8/10? yeah no.

they're already posted. somewhere. i've posted them in the past and oly has done the same. . silly you if you think i'm gonna go dig them up. again, whether you believe is irrelevent to me.

8/10

Originally posted by leonidas
they're already posted. somewhere. i've posted them in the past and oly has done the same. . silly you if you think i'm gonna go dig them up. again, whether you believe is irrelevent to me.

8/10

Sweet debating

and your still wrong

Originally posted by leonidas
damn you type fast.

anyway, IF is the big thing. Which is why I've been careful to use the word if instead of when. I do think think Herc's skill would come into play. How much or how well.. I dunno.

Originally posted by leonidas
if herc used his skills to the max as he was FORCED to do while mortal when he fought the hulk he'd be a much greater theat than he even is now. the choke hold he used on hulk while mortal would certainly be enough to take hulk out if he used it while in immortal form. the same choke took out thor pretty easily. thor was saved by summoning a bolt of lightning. herc really only needs to evade the claws, use his choke hold and i really don't see how wendigo could escape. he couldn't overpower herc like hulk overpowered mortal herc, and if thor couldn't escape . . . Like you said, IF is a big thing right?
Let's say Herc did get into that position though... what'd happen when Wendigo went to claw his face off? I mean his arms are already fixed into position and there's practically no where for him to go. He'd get nailed.


Originally posted by leonidas
the claws WOULD do damage, but i think he could evade them long enough for his skill to allow him to take wendigo out. Almost every time? I don't.



Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, reading it again i can see where you were confused. but yes i was referencing wendigo still. Right then.

Originally posted by jinzin
But there WERE others..
I'd view the feat as a slightly more impressive feat if those others were a bunch of pushover but they were also A-listers...

meh. true enough, but he was certainly the most effective and suffered no ill-effects from that VERY long battle.



i don't think their IS a herc respect thread . . . i've posted them in various threads but i have no idea where. oly has done the same. maybe he'll remember where.



your perogative of course. but when hulk was doing damage in that fight it was while banner was in control though and yeah, that saquatch was NOT impressive at all.

Originally posted by leonidas
but when hulk was doing damage in that fight it was while banner was in control though and yeah, that saquatch was NOT impressive at all.

Yeah the damage Wendigo merely brushed off, and Walter was commenting while Hulk and Wendigo were fighting Hulk was slipping back into Savage form

Or that Wendigo was very impressive

Originally posted by -K-M-
Sweet debating



i managed to avoid all the condescending lulz's and snickers though. so yeah. go me.



thus speaketh the king and his decree makes it true.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Yeah the damage Wendigo merely brushed off, and Walter was commenting while Hulk and Wendigo were fighting Hulk was slipping back into Savage form

Or that Wendigo was very impressive

sasquatch has been shown to do better than that in the past. perhaps he was written poorly, but that sas did NOT do well. if banner hulk could do what he did, there's no way around it accept to say he was written poorly or he simply was not shown at max in that battle.

Originally posted by leonidas
sasquatch has been shown to do better than that in the past. perhaps he was written poorly, but that sas did NOT do well. if banner hulk could do what he did, there's no way around it accept to say he was written poorly or he simply was not shown at max in that battle.

Hulk at that time was still in the stages between Professor and Savage, so it wasn't like it wasn't like he was completly weaker especially since he was slipping during the fight. Meh! Sasquatch was holding Wendigo so Banner could escape, but then Wendigo countered it.

Originally posted by leonidas
meh. true enough, but he was certainly the most effective and suffered no ill-effects from that VERY long battle.
All that tells me is that he's got enough stamina to keep Hulk occupied because well that's all I remember him doing.



Originally posted by leonidas
i don't think their IS a herc respect thread . . . i've posted them in various threads but i have no idea where. oly has done the same. maybe he'll remember where. hmmm Maybe I have those issues on hand here at college... I doubt it though.. I'll mill about and see if I can hunt any of them down. If not, I guess I'll have to wait till after finals.



Originally posted by leonidas
your perogative of course. but when hulk was doing damage in that fight it was while banner was in control though and yeah, that saquatch was NOT impressive at all. Doing damage? He knocked Wendigo down.. Which isn't outside anyone's capability to do at that level, but he didn't have Wendigo at his mercy at any point in that fight and the only time he actually began to assert an advantage Wendigo got pissed and was all over him clawing away.
Also....
That sasquatch lifted a one hundred fifty ton airliner with a lateral arm raise.. That's ridiculously impressive for a "75 tonner".

Originally posted by leonidas
sasquatch has been shown to do better than that in the past. perhaps he was written poorly, but that sas did NOT do well. if banner hulk could do what he did, there's no way around it accept to say he was written poorly or he simply was not shown at max in that battle. He didn't DO anything... He attacked Wendi from behind. He started landing consecutive blows but they didn't put Wendigo down and didn't even come close for that matter.

Originally posted by jinzin
Also....
That sasquatch lifted a one hundred fifty ton airliner with a lateral arm raise.. That's ridiculously impressive for a "75 tonner".

250 tons actually

Originally posted by -K-M-
250 tons actually Aye, I was giving him a low end benefit of the doubt.

he lifted an airliner in that issue? maybe. i'm going by memory here. regardless, he fared far less well than banner hulk did. if you're trying to tell me wendigo is>cl250 . . . well . . .

i've been trying to find a guy that best matches wendigo that herc has defeated. not all that easy to find that style of guy. the minotaur comes to mind. abomination has claws and has done at least as wellon occasion against hulk as wendigo has and herc has one-shotted him. he's also destroyed cerberus, the hell guardian, another huge, savage type.

this lesser known fellow's name is sloth. he was one of proctor's gatherers.

http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sloth1uw5.jpg

in his first appearance he briefly engaged thor, herc and lockjaw. he somehow or other eliminated thor and beat lockjaw (never really shown or explained) and smashed herc through the majority of a mountain when his back was turned. herc fought free of the mountain and this was the last we saw of sloth until the last page when he left with his team:

http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sloth2vq3.jpg

they meet again here when herc has to save thor who is being overwhelmed by sloth. note the slash as thor battles. the claws are real . . .

http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sloth3di0.jpg

herc intervenes in that scene and with a single shot takes sloth out for the rest of the issue until again the last page. in their final confrontation, herc has about had enough of sloth:

http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sloth4cq0.jpg

http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sloth5xe8.jpg

at no point in any confrontation was herc ever in danger for being gutted, or slashed to death or . . . anything else you insist wendigo is able to do to him.

it feels as though you keep demanding proof that herc can somehow survive wendigo's onslaught, yet i have NEVER seen a battle where a savage opponent of the nature of wendigo has been able to to do . . . anything REMOTELY close to what you are saying will happen in this battle. herc has made a living fighting 'monsters' for quite literally thousands of years. yet somehow you assume the wendigo will be different from all these others?

i could go on about the people herc has defeated but i'm not really sure it's gonna change your mind. basically you think herc can't withstand or avoid the claws for some reason when really there is zero evidence to suggest he's ever been put down by something like that -- and like i said, he's fought many MANY monster-types in the past. the crusader v thor isn't really a great example. crusader's power was . . . odd and thor was very . . . 'depressed' (??) when he battled him. the blow did put thor down, but he was already doubting himself and READY to be put down. i and a magic blade>wendigo's claws. herc's withstood multiple shots from thor's hammer, withstood blasts from firelord, frankie ray and the universal weapon and single-handedly destroyed the wrecking crew, going so far as to destroy thunderball's wrecking ball. even loaded it took goliath and a bunch of others working together to ko a DRUNK hercules. his endurance and skill are enormously underrated by most. in a possible future (my favourite herc incarnation, btw) he's defeated the wielder of the negabands AND ko'd friggin' zeus! his endurance and skill are generally speaking extremely underrated. and i really cannot come up with a SINGLE instance in my brain where herc was actually defeated in this kind of brawling-style battle.

anyway, there really isn't much more to say. you're welcome to your opinion of course, and i'll respectfully disagree with it.

Half your examples really don't compare to Wendigo or come close.

When did Hercules defeat the Wrecking Crew himself? If your talking about Thor #418 , Thor helped him and he didn't even defeat the entire crew and those who he did hit were right back up shortly after

Also I have seen Iron Fist KO a drunken Hercules with a single hit.

Originally posted by leonidas
he lifted an airliner in that issue? maybe. i'm going by memory here. regardless, he fared far less well than banner hulk did. if you're trying to tell me wendigo is>cl250 . . . well . . .

i've been trying to find a guy that best matches wendigo that herc has defeated. not all that easy to find that style of guy. the minotaur comes to mind. abomination has claws and has done at least as wellon occasion against hulk as wendigo has and herc has one-shotted him. he's also destroyed cerberus, the hell guardian, another huge, savage type.
Abomination, I'm fairly certain, doesn't use claws or have them a large majority of the time. He relies almost entirely on brute strength for his fights against Hulk; his healing factor is also piss poor compared to the feats of Wendigo and I can't think of one decent example of speed he sports. He couldn't even keep pace with Marrow and Angel.

Minotaur.. Doesn't impress me when he's having trouble dealing with DD.

Don't know anything about Cerebrus so I can't argue about that one way or the other.

Originally posted by leonidas
this lesser known fellow's name is sloth. he was one of proctor's gatherers.
http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sloth1uw5.jpg
in his first appearance he briefly engaged thor, herc and lockjaw. he somehow or other eliminated thor and beat lockjaw (never really shown or explained) and smashed herc through the majority of a mountain when his back was turned. herc fought free of the mountain and this was the last we saw of sloth until the last page when he left with his team:
http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sloth2vq3.jpg
they meet again here when herc has to save thor who is being overwhelmed by sloth. note the slash as thor battles. the claws are real . . .
http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sloth3di0.jpg
herc intervenes in that scene and with a single shot takes sloth out for the rest of the issue until again the last page. in their final confrontation, herc has about had enough of sloth:
http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sloth4cq0.jpg
http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sloth5xe8.jpg
at no point in any confrontation was herc ever in danger for being gutted, or slashed to death or . . . anything else you insist wendigo is able to do to him. I'll admit I'm not keen on this Sloth either so my retort is based entirely on what you've shown me; that said...
At no point do I see this Sloth character land an offensive attack on Herc. Being able to beat up Masterson Thor is one thing, but I don't exactly equate that to being able to beat on regs Thor.
When we see the claw strike it's apparent that they're not doing any real damage; that right there is a bit of a contradiction to the comparison with Wendigo who can cut Hulk open.

But regardless of that, there's no point where Herc looks like he has to avoid being hit by the claws. Sure it's nice for him to ram through one character before he puts up a defense, but does that mean he's going to do that to Wendigo? Every showing of Wendigo I've seen dictates a heavy no on that one.

Originally posted by leonidas
it feels as though you keep demanding proof that herc can somehow survive wendigo's onslaught, yet i have NEVER seen a battle where a savage opponent of the nature of wendigo has been able to to do . . . anything REMOTELY close to what you are saying will happen in this battle. herc has made a living fighting 'monsters' for quite literally thousands of years. yet somehow you assume the wendigo will be different from all these others?
Well first off, I don't know that I've been demanding ANYTHING friend.

Secondly, dude, Hulk's made a career of fighting and beating the crapola out of large monsters akin to the beasts that Herc and Thor have fought, and sometimes even the same creatures. Wendigo doesn't fall into the same category of fodder as those others as I've said before. His ability to force Hulk into teamwork on almost every occasion they've met is a testiment to that. Or so I should think.

Originally posted by leonidas
i could go on about the people herc has defeated but i'm not really sure it's gonna change your mind. basically you think herc can't withstand or avoid the claws for some reason when really there is zero evidence to suggest he's ever been put down by something like that -- and like i said, he's fought many MANY monster-types in the past.
I stated that he COULD avoid the claws though.
I simply don't feel like he could do so long enough to avoid every attempt before he'd be even able to bring Wendigo down. I think that Wendigo is simply more likely to land claw shots before running the chance/risk of getting KOed.

Originally posted by leonidas
the crusader v thor isn't really a great example. crusader's power was . . . odd and thor was very . . . 'depressed' (??) when he battled him. the blow did put thor down, but he was already doubting himself and READY to be put down. i and a magic blade>wendigo's claws.
I was only using that as an example of what evisceration can do to an immortal. And that was a response to Herc vs. Wolverine which is another matter entirely.

Originally posted by leonidas
herc's withstood multiple shots from thor's hammer, withstood blasts from firelord, frankie ray and the universal weapon and single-handedly destroyed the wrecking crew, going so far as to destroy thunderball's wrecking ball. even loaded it took goliath and a bunch of others working together to ko a DRUNK hercules. his endurance and skill are enormously underrated by most. in a possible future (my favourite herc incarnation, btw) he's defeated the wielder of the negabands AND ko'd friggin' zeus! his endurance and skill are generally speaking extremely underrated. and i really cannot come up with a SINGLE instance in my brain where herc was actually defeated in this kind of brawling-style battle.
Herc's durability isn't really being underrated here though. I'm fairly sure that everyone (at least me if not) has come to a reasonable conclusion that KOing Herc with brute strength alone would be a "Herculean" feat for Wendigo. But then again I'm not exactly arguing against his brute force and energy resistant durability alone. It's been clearly demonstrated that immortals on his level can be cut and that it effects their performance.

Originally posted by leonidas
anyway, there really isn't much more to say. you're welcome to your opinion of course, and i'll respectfully disagree with it. Fair enough friend...

Originally posted by -K-M-
When did Hercules defeat the Wrecking Crew himself

Two times in the 90`s.

Originally posted by -K-M-
If your talking about Thor #418 , Thor helped him and he didn't even defeat the entire crew and those who he did hit were right back up shortly after

Hercules fougth the Wrecking Crew two more times, in his second long sting in the Avengers, under Harras and Epting.

He beat them alone.

And that time where Thor was pretending to be the victim so Hercules could regain confidence? Is a win.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Also I have seen Iron Fist KO a drunken Hercules with a single hit.

Wich was Hercules in his depowered mortal status of the time. No higter than Ben, if that much.

And iirc, he got up afterwards not long after.

Originally posted by -K-M-
No not at all, especially how it takes Hulk + to beat Wendigo

Definetly not the case, I know Wendigo's track record and I know what he has done and I know people stronger and more powerful then Hercules have failed against different hosts before. So with your logic, Hercules wins practically everytime with skill, even though that never helped him with the Hulk

I dont know if you know, but the figths where Hercules had the most advantages over Hulk, are exactly the ones where he wasent depowered and used his grappling skill.

Not to say he would win, maybe. But he certainly does better. And hes got something like two figths like those.

Originally posted by jinzin
I'm sure that was an attempted insult at my intelligence, but those don't work when they don't make sense.

Herc was cracking jokes until Wolverine unleashed his claws. Then? "Zounds!" Sure herc started laughin it up when Logan got his claws stuck in the table.. You know which one, the one that Herc was using to hide behind. But after he got floored he was done crackin jokes again wasn't he?

He wasent?

http://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=herc5kt.jpg

http://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=max00068yl.jpg

He sure always seemed to be in a good mood to me. The only one pissed until the end was Logan. If you count Logan tripping Hercules down as "almost beating him" as you said in your posts before, then im waiting for you to count the two or three times, that Hercules slapped Logan down as "wins" as well.

Im waiting, boi. Its your logic!

Originally posted by jinzin


Consider what is in caps. Now, lets see the only thing Logan did, in the whole figth. Even with the claws:

http://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=herc28fc.jpg

And that was in the end. As far as i know, the comic while not long by any means didnt had just this page.

So, what happened in the others? Logan being tossed around. Sorry to say, but my interpretation is certainly more accurate than your`s "he almost beat him" interpretation.

Originally posted by jinzin


He certainly wont chop the livers off on someone of this level. Especially a fellow hero. He has been doing it since...never. If your point is that everyone in the Marvel Universe is aware of how dangerous the claws are and that gives you a boner, its one thing. Claiming he can chop people like Hercules "into meat pieces" as you claimed, its another. Its not happening. Not to a guy who is Immortal and who also sports a healing factor and high durability.

In the end, why did he dodged? The same reason why Logan usually dodges the Hulk`s punches. They may not kill him, but they will hurt and take down some advantage, that he would have otherwise. Its all fair game, so i dont know what you are complaing about.

Hum. Maybe because thats the only way you can claim any "win".

Originally posted by jinzin


Can you show me the action. Can you show me when Logan took Hercules out, and especifically at H2H? My copy doesnt have any maybe someone ripped off the pages?

Bastard. I bet it was you.

Originally posted by jinzin


That was hiLArious!

Originally posted by jinzin
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/TheIncredibleHulkv2-181-05.jpg
Yup. He's doin a hell of a job ain't he?

Certainly better than losing to Logan alone in less than two pages. Or even worse, a Wolverine shaped Snowbird. Especially since thats the last page of a WHOLE comic where he figths Logan AND the Hulk.

Oh sorry, you werent expecting such an obvious comeback. I am really sorry. Sorry, sorry, sorry!

Originally posted by jinzin


Colossus being a top tier is a running gag over the comic book fandom. You cant possibly be for real.

He went toe to toe with a Gladiator who wasent written as top tier material at the time. That only started when Byrne took him to the F4 title and beat on the "Thing" with one hit, and Ben at the time wasent certainly written as anything less than Colossus on his title.

Against Juggernaut? Despite his acrobatic skills, how many actual figths did he had by standing toe to toe and head on? We all know that when he went head on in the infamious "bar scene", he went down in a couple of panels. And it wasent because of the heavy drinks.

Enough of arguing this with you. What a waste of time. Christ.

When someone praises for the "Church of CL100 Colossus" of all things to make Wolverine look good, you know you reached a limit.

Ah and KM. Again:

Originally posted by jinzin


She turned. Into. an actual. "Wolverine" (the animal for those who dont follow). And. Took. The. Guy. Down. Alone.

You can assume some amazing outside mistical energy was into play, but the scene doesnt make any mention to it, other than the one she used to transform. And the other time she faced Wendigo, was by turning into the Wendigo herself.

So maybe, just MAYBE, there is a difference of showings here.

*shrugs*

Damn. I brought down the house.

Shows us more of your rocket science, Jin!

Originally posted by jinzin


hmmm Maybe I have those issues on hand here at college... I doubt it though.. I'll mill about and see if I can hunt any of them down. If not, I guess I'll have to wait till after finals.



Which college do you attend?

Originally posted by olympian
He wasent?
http://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=herc5kt.jpg
http://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=max00068yl.jpg
He sure always seemed to be in a good mood to me. The only one pissed until the end was Logan. If you count Logan tripping Hercules down as "almost beating him" as you said in your posts before, then im waiting for you to count the two or three times, that Hercules slapped Logan down as "wins" as well.
Im waiting, boi. Its your logic!
Care to quote me on that?
I've stated repeatedly that it's not a good representation of either character. The only reason I even started getting into it is because you seem to think it's a feat indicative of how a fight between them would go. I've never tried to use that as evidence that Logan "almost beat him", just that Logan didn't get owned so I have no idea from what depths of defensive Hercules fanboyism you got that from.

Likewise I don't know where you're getting this "tripped" stuff from either. All Wolverine did was bash the table over Herc's head and knock his ass to the floor... there was no "tripping" involved.

Originally posted by olympian
Consider what is in caps. Now, lets see the only thing Logan did, in the whole figth. Even with the claws:
http://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=herc28fc.jpg
And that was in the end. As far as i know, the comic while not long by any means didnt had just this page.
So, what happened in the others? Logan being tossed around. Sorry to say, but my interpretation is certainly more accurate than your`s "he almost beat him" interpretation.

Lol, you tried to represent the fight as Logan getting tossed around, as if that was the end all be all feat of the fight.. Funny that, since the RESULT of Herc scared of Logan's claws and on his ass.
Sure doesn't look just like "logan getting tossed around to me"... Which is what you stated and continue to state happened.
Your interpretation of the comics is about as accurate as your interpretation of my arguments...


Originally posted by olympian
He certainly wont chop the livers off on someone of this level. Especially a fellow hero. He has been doing it since...never. If your point is that everyone in the Marvel Universe is aware of how dangerous the claws are and that gives you a boner, its one thing. Claiming he can chop people like Hercules "into meat pieces" as you claimed, its another. Its not happening. Not to a guy who is Immortal and who also sports a healing factor and high durability.
In the end, why did he dodged? The same reason why Logan usually dodges the Hulk`s punches. They may not kill him, but they will hurt and take down some advantage, that he would have otherwise. Its all fair game, so i dont know what you are complaing about.
Hum. Maybe because thats the only way you can claim any "win".
Hardly. I only used the meat cubes reference as a point of exaggeration to the fact that Wolverine could and would put a hurting on Herc with claws.

Thor and Roughouse are both characters who are immortal with high end durability.. Both go down to stabbing and evisceration. Herc would go down to stabbing and evisceration.

Originally posted by olympian
Can you show me the action. Can you show me when Logan took Hercules out, and especifically at H2H? My copy doesnt have any maybe someone ripped off the pages?

Bastard. I bet it was you.

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5457/secondfighthd4.jpg

Hey, you want to keep using your bias to ignore what happened, or pretend that something else took place, be my guest.



Originally posted by olympian
That was hiLArious!
What? The fact that your petty attempts at insulting me keep back-firing in your face? Yes, I find that humorous as well.



Originally posted by olympian
Certainly better than losing to Logan alone in less than two pages. Or even worse, a Wolverine shaped Snowbird. Especially since thats the last page of a WHOLE comic where he figths Logan AND the Hulk.
Oh sorry, you werent expecting such an obvious comeback. I am really sorry. Sorry, sorry, sorry!

What's better about it?
Look maybe you missed out because you were looking at the pretty pictures, and you've already admitted to having reading comprehension problems but when Wendigo went down to Logan in Uncanny he went down to Wolverine caught up in a berserker rage.. "days of non-stop fighting" compacted into a few short minutes...
Wendigo staggering back and weakening against a lax Wolverine who was talking trash is in no way shape or form... better...
Snowbird. She has a mystical power source. Maybe you missed this part too cause.. well I know it's in printed word and that's hard for you to latch onto not being a colored picture an' all but everyone else attacking Wendigo with generic weapons was doing a piss poor job because the curse was nullifying their effects.. The curse offered no such protection from Snowbird as a natural creature.

And the last page of the "WHOLE comic" where Wolverine and Hulk fight Wendigo end with Wendigo running away while Hulk consoles Wendi's lonely, human sister.
C'mon, if you're going to pretend you've read the comics at least do your research.

If you're talking about that being the last page of the fight that Wendigo was a part of for that comic.. It was a fight that lasted 10 pages. Wendigo was in four of them, and out of those four entire pages he only wasn't getting owned in ONE of them.. that is by NO MEANS "doing good" nor "better".

You're right though, I should know better than to even have expectations when it comes to you and your replies.

Originally posted by olympian
Colossus being a top tier is a running gag over the comic book fandom. You cant possibly be for real.
He went toe to toe with a Gladiator who wasent written as top tier material at the time. That only started when Byrne took him to the F4 title and beat on the "Thing" with one hit, and Ben at the time wasent certainly written as anything less than Colossus on his title.
Against Juggernaut? Despite his acrobatic skills, how many actual figths did he had by standing toe to toe and head on? We all know that when he went head on in the infamious "bar scene", he went down in a couple of panels. And it wasent because of the heavy drinks.
Enough of arguing this with you. What a waste of time. Christ.
When someone praises for the "Church of CL100 Colossus" of all things to make Wolverine look good, you know you reached a limit.
Ah and KM. Again:
Again look at his feats at the time. Gladiator was CLEARLY an attempt at making a top tier character even then.
Colossus also took down Arkon in a few blows. Something Hercules failed to do with help.. and cheap shots.
And he was tossing around 100 ton sentinals like sandbags..
If you think 100 tons is beyond Colossus' capability to lift then you're way too far beyond help.

Originally posted by olympian
Damn. I brought down the house.

Shows us more of your rocket science, Jin!

I love self congratulatory backpatting..
It's like watching someone throw a party where they're the only person who shows up...


And by the way what you said to Hammer... He's right, and you're wrong..
Originally posted by olympian
or even perhaps take ties with Hulk, something he also never did.

This is so completely ignorant I don't even know where to begin...

Well aside from the fact that Wolverine stood up to more punishment than Herc did from WWH before he got grounded and kept getting up anyway .... Almost all of his fights with Hulk have been stalemates.

Their first fight was amassive stalemate, neither having an advantage until they both got gassed.
Their second fight was going the same way even after Hulk started the fight with a cheap blow only until Hulk landed yet another cheap shot while Wolverine's back was turned to end it. Even then What If calls to question what may have happened had Wolverine ignored his orders completely and gone in for the kill.

Hulk 340, Wolverine got a KO in his first intentional attack.
When round two resumed, it ended in yet another stalemate.

His third fight with Grey Hulk was yet another stalemate as both characters poured over a waterfall neither with an advantage.

His fourth against a Hulk who was hitting harder than green Hulk ended with him on Hulk's back, trying to hold back as not to hurt Hulk, neither with an advantage when Hulk was in his right mind again; stalemate.

Logan attacked professor Hulk briefly causing him to reel back but the fight didn't escalate.. stalemate.

Bone claw Wolverine held his own against Hulk in the savage land indefinitely until he literally stopped fighting to try and talk sense into Hulk.. till then? Stalemate.

On another occasion when bone clawed Wolverine and Wendigo attacked Hulk, they knocked him the fuc* out.

When Skrullverine went rounds with Hulk he almost beat/killed him until Tyrannus unleashed all of Hulks rage in one blow to free himself from drowning.. Without help he might not have made it. And then skrullverine ended up winning anyways.

Death Wolverine almost killed Hulk.

Wolverine stalemated Savage Hulk until their fight was interrupted by X-factor and the government.

Wolverine fought Hulk until they both got caught up in an avalanche, Hulk got KOed and Wolverine didn't.

And finally Wolverine was able to fight Hulk indefinitely in Nightmare's realm.

But yeah, I guess those are all versions of Hulk who pale in comparison to.... other versions of Hulk...

Or at least that's what your Wolvie/Wendi logic would have us believe.

Originally posted by olympian
Someone who exagerattes good apearances into wins where arent any

Originally posted by olympian
A) a Wendigo that figths both Hulk and Wolverine at the same time and is doing GOOD


Wendigo fighting Wolverine and Hulk at the same time and "doing good"

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/9551/hulk181eri2.jpg




Originally posted by olympian
and doesnt know how to compare different showings,


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Originally posted by olympian
The Wendigo that held up to the Hulk would do good.

The one that failed against Saber and Logan, likely wouldnt. Ah, who are we kidding? It wouldnt. Originally posted by snoopdogg
Didn't Herc. fail against Logan? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Originally posted by olympian
shouldnt try to act macho.

Originally posted by olympian
Implied nothing, kid.

Originally posted by jinzin
Care to quote me on that?
I've stated repeatedly that it's not a good representation of either character. The only reason I even started getting into it is because you seem to think it's a feat indicative of how a fight between them would go. I've never tried to use that as evidence that Logan "almost beat him", just that Logan didn't get owned so I have no idea from what depths of defensive Hercules fanboyism you got that from.

Jin, your memory is deceveing you. Snoop brough it "hasent he been beaten", and i said, "only if you count the off panel win". Then you brougth this one up, because it was an on panel example on how he "almost beat him", according to none other than you.

So do me a favour and stop whinning. Anyone can read the thread for themselves to see how here you are trowing the sand in everyone`s eyes.

The ones who can read, at least.

Originally posted by jinzin
Likewise I don't know where you're getting this "tripped" stuff from either. All Wolverine did was bash the table over Herc's head and knock his ass to the floor... there was no "tripping" involved.

That doesnt change the nature of my question. Whatever may you describe it, he took Hercules down once, while Hercules took him down more than once.

So, did he "almost beat him"?

Originally posted by jinzin
Lol, you tried to represent the fight as Logan getting tossed around, as if that was the end all be all feat of the fight.. Funny that, since the RESULT of Herc scared of Logan's claws and on his ass.

It was certainly most of the figth, since Logan went down more often, unlike Herc who went down once. And the result was what? Hercules not being injured?

So, since my interpretation is more accurate, given how Logan WAS tossed down more often than otherwise, using your own logic, Hercules won, didnt he?

Originally posted by jinzin
Sure doesn't look just like "logan getting tossed around to me"... Which is what you stated and continue to state happened.
Your interpretation of the comics is about as accurate as your interpretation of my arguments...

Yeah. Being bitchlaped across the room, sure doesnt mean getting "tossed around".

lolz, lolz.

Originally posted by jinzin
Hardly. I only used the meat cubes reference as a point of exaggeration to the fact that Wolverine could and would put a hurting on Herc with claws.

Ah, see how you concead you exageratted? And here is the difference of someone who aknowleges what the two characters have done in a particular encounter and another who exagerattes.

*drinks*

Originally posted by jinzin
Thor and Roughouse are both characters who are immortal with high end durability.. Both go down to stabbing and evisceration. Herc would go down to stabbing and evisceration.

But Wolverine isent Roughouse, is he?

If using feats of similiar characters count, can i use Hulk`s feats? Or Thor`s? Or the Forgotten One`s?

Originally posted by jinzin
What's better about it?
Look maybe you missed out because you were looking at the pretty pictures, and you've already admitted to having reading comprehension problems but when Wendigo went down to Logan in Uncanny he went down to Wolverine caught up in a berserker rage.. "days of non-stop fighting" compacted into a few short minutes...

Does that change the nature of time was still only minutes for the encounter? No.

As it is, no matter what you slide in, its still less impressive than being taken down with teamwork that consists in the likes of Hulk and someone else. But keep pretending you can see it for the sake of Logan as top tier. Its most amusing.

Originally posted by jinzin
Wendigo staggering back and weakening against a lax Wolverine who was talking trash is in no way shape or form... better...

With Hulk`s help. Your narrowed vision may not see Hulk, but i guarantee that Hulk was there. Not only that but its the sickiest thing that you post ONLY the panels where wolverine attacks, and not Hulk. Im sure it isent to give any direction that Wolverine alone was enough to wear him down, oh no!

WTF indeed. What planet do you live in, when a teamwork is needed to wear down one guy, its equalled by just one chap making a finish move?

Did you failed at sports too?

Originally posted by jinzin
Snowbird. She has a mystical power source. Maybe you missed this part too cause.. well I know it's in printed word and that's hard for you to latch onto not being a colored picture an' all but everyone else attacking Wendigo with generic weapons was doing a piss poor job because the curse was nullifying their effects.. The curse offered no such protection from Snowbird as a natural creature.

Yeah, her mistical power source is internal. Its what makes her transform. And she transformed into a goddamn "Wolverine". That surely must be amazingly greater than withstanding for some time the combined attacks of Hulk and Wolverine or the Alpha Fligth and Sasquatch.

Hey, Hercules also got a mystical power source. Its what makes him being strong as he is, since birth. Going by your dumb logic, that should be enough to win against Wendigo. Because you know, its mystical.

This also means kids, that anyone whose power source is mystical in nature will have an automatic advantage over Wendigo, just because. Someone better call Hellcat! Too bad the fact that Wolverine won against the same guy, overrides that...."fact".

Originally posted by jinzin
And the last page of the "WHOLE comic" where Wolverine and Hulk fight Wendigo end with Wendigo running away while Hulk consoles Wendi's lonely, human sister.

We all know what i was refering to. Are you playing dumb for the sake of it, now that your argument got more holes than a certain cheese?

Originally posted by jinzin
C'mon, if you're going to pretend you've read the comics at least do your research.

Lolz.

Like you did by saying "Wolverine almost beat him"?

Want a Pac Man for you as well?

And the ownage carries on smoothly:

Originally posted by jinzin
If you're talking about that being the last page of the fight that Wendigo was a part of for that comic.. It was a fight that lasted 10 pages. Wendigo was in four of them, and out of those four entire pages he only wasn't getting owned in ONE of them.. that is by NO MEANS "doing good" nor "better"..

It surely means doing "better" than the ones where he outrigth "lost" in less than a "single page" to both guys who are weaker than "Hulk". And he didnt lost to those two together, no sir. He lost to each one alone.

Are you in a retarded rocket science class? Hum?

Originally posted by jinzin
Again look at his feats at the time. Gladiator was CLEARLY an attempt at making a top tier character even then.

Are you conceading he wasent exactly a top tier, like he later became ?

Good boi. An attemp is one thing, being actually one is another.

Originally posted by jinzin
Colossus also took down Arkon in a few blows. Something Hercules failed to do with help.. and cheap shots.

O`really?:

http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengers35813eb.jpg
http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengers35824ss.jpg
http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengers35837lk.jpg

As far as help goes, you must be talking about some other encounter.

As far as cheap shot goes, why are you complaining, boi? Didnt Logan did the exact same in one of the examples we are discussing? Oh yes he did:

http://img382.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture11005gk.jpg

Btw, you bastard. I told you NOT to rip off pages again!

Originally posted by jinzin
And he was tossing around 100 ton sentinals like sandbags..
If you think 100 tons is beyond Colossus' capability to lift then you're way too far beyond help.

Ben Grimm can hold hundred of tons. He has held at least a section of the Golden Gate bridge. And that still doesnt make him a top tier. Know why? He doesnt have better feats.

"Cl 100" doesnt translate into an accurate 100 tons. Never did.

If giving erroneus interpretations about everything is the best you can do, im going to have a laugthing riot with you. Oh wait, im already there.

Originally posted by jinzin

Sure, here is my bias:

You claimed Wolverine won especifically at h2h. And all i see is two panels with the beginning of the figth and the end. Nothing in the middle.

Explain to us, how you can tell the way the figth went, other than making things up on your own.

Originally posted by olympian
Hercules fougth the Wrecking Crew two more times, in his second long sting in the Avengers, under Harras and Epting.

He beat them alone.

And that time where Thor was pretending to be the victim so Hercules could regain confidence? Is a win.


Issues? I don't recall this, not saying your wrong just don't remember it

Not really especially since the Crew were still in fighting form and the Crew would have killed Hercules if Thor didn't interfer.

Originally posted by olympian

I dont know if you know, but the figths where Hercules had the most advantages over Hulk, are exactly the ones where he wasent depowered and used his grappling skill.

Not to say he would win, maybe. But he certainly does better. And hes got something like two figths like those.

Yes I know, but mortal/immortal Hercules line has been blurred over the years now

Against Hulk or Wendigo? Sure I can see him taking a few wins from Wendigo or Hulk, but majority? Naaaa...

Originally posted by jinzin
Abomination, I'm fairly certain, doesn't use claws or have them a large majority of the time. He relies almost entirely on brute strength for his fights against Hulk; his healing factor is also piss poor compared to the feats of Wendigo and I can't think of one decent example of speed he sports. He couldn't even keep pace with Marrow and Angel.

not like wendy has 'loads' of speed feats, and certain versions/hosts have literally NONE to boast of. you keep referencing some 'generic' version of the character it seems. yet one has been scared into NOT fighting by feral wolverine. that same one i think was put down unconscious by a holding back wolverine and some bullets. another version had to team WITH wolverine to defeat HULK. i said near the outset it depends on the host and that certain hosts would cause herc a lot more grief and tip the odds a lot closer to even or maybe even POTENTIALLY in wendy's favor.



i'm guessing we're talking about different versions. the one i'm talking about was at least cl100 and gave herc everything he could handle.



still shows his strength. overwhelming someone with thor's power is clearly pretty damn impressive. and perhaps the claws are not as sharp, for . . . some reason as wendy's are but they were never a threat in ANY way. it would require a truly devastating shot from wendy to actually incapacitate herc like you're suggesting. herc was stabbed in the stomach by arkon, i think (with one of his lightning bolts), and showed no ill-effects. went on to beat arkon down if memory serves. the she-hulk 'gutting' was done while she was distracted. she was easily avoiding the claws and smacking him around until she started screwing around. her skill<<herc. if this is bloodlusted herc, he would NOT be screwing around and a bloodlusted herc ko'd his daddy zeus.



hulk never TRIES to avoid them. that wouldn't happen against herc.



and i've seen him refuse to engage a near-berserk wolverine. and i've seen it taken out by bullets. not all wendigo's are created equal.



hulk/wendy fights are generally undecided (as are so many hulk fights) and again, there was a time when wolverine and wendy had to team against hulk. and just because wolverine was present doesn't mean hulk actually 'needed' his help or was 'forced' to work with wolverine. it's rather a testament to the fact that hulk and wolvie are working for the same goal -- namely stop wendigo. like one is gonna sit out and watch the other fight?



it would take a devastating cut to take him out. he could easily handle a LOT of punishment. as i said, it depends on the host. some have proven fast enough to land that blow, others have no speed feats at all. there is still no evidence at all of a foe of this type EVER defeating herc. wendy IS a different breed. some hosts might take a split from him or potentially take even more than that. others would lose most of the time.

now i really AM done with this thread. (gotta tourney to win. )

Errrr? Hulk's partners when he fights against Wendigo have bailed him out of bad situations before, like Captain Marvel saved his arse from being choked to death

Originally posted by -K-M-
Errrr? Hulk's partners when he fights against Wendigo have bailed him out of bad situations before, like Captain Marvel saved his arse from being choked to death

weren't they underwater or something?

no real indicationhe could choke hulk on land which is where i'd presume this fight takes place. not even sure hulk was GOING to drown there. he may have been able to punch wendy out of the water, or broken the hold or something.

Originally posted by leonidas
weren't they underwater or something?

no real indicationhe could choke hulk on land which is where i'd presume this fight takes place. not even sure hulk was GOING to drown there. he may have been able to punch wendy out of the water, or broken the hold or something.

Yeah and? Considering it was Hulk who wanted to fight in the water

Actually that was the start of the fight, as Hulk instantly tried to get him away from Rick. They were fighting for awhile underwater, and Wendigo hit Hulk with a claw strike causing him to scream out in pain, and then Wendigo put him in a choke hold and he had a look of terror in his face. Captain Marvel then shot Wendigo from behind and flew Hulk out of the water as Hulk was in serious trouble.

Also what issue where you refering to when Hercules beat the Wrecking Crew solo?

Originally posted by -K-M-
Yeah and?





look of "terror . . .?" i'd love to see that . . . hulk's been in plenty of similar situations. you're speculating he couldn't have gotten out of it himself. and wasn't that a banner controlled-hulk again in that fight?



418/419 maybe? thor let's himself be beat up to restore herc's confidence, then herc proceed to shatter thunderball's ball, basically one-shots piledriver and bulldozer then starts to beat down wrecker. thor smacks wrecker away at the very end, but the point was made pretty clearly. i think thunderball even comments that piledriver and bulldozer have concussions or something as they all gathered to take off. they met in the avengers as well but i can't recall the issue #.

Originally posted by olympian




O`really?:

http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengers35813eb.jpg
http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengers35824ss.jpg
http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengers35837lk.jpg Maybe you should show the whole fight. It didn't stop there. Arkon lost but he was not kayoed at all. To be honest Colossus actually kayoed Arkon(Even if it was momentary), Hercules did not. And Colossus used a tree! Unless you think a piece of wood is harder than Colossus' fist?

Originally posted by leonidas
not like wendy has 'loads' of speed feats, and certain versions/hosts have literally NONE to boast of. you keep referencing some 'generic' version of the character it seems. yet one has been scared into NOT fighting by feral wolverine. that same one i think was put down unconscious by a holding back wolverine and some bullets. another version had to team WITH wolverine to defeat HULK. i said near the outset it depends on the host and that certain hosts would cause herc a lot more grief and tip the odds a lot closer to even or maybe even POTENTIALLY in wendy's favor.
True enough to the speed aspect, but I feel the general notion is that he's a fast brick. Agreed?

The Wendigo in Spiderman didn't get put down by Wolverine, he smashed Wolverine but ended up falling due to blood loss from the bullets (i.e. Wonder Woman durability).. The fact that Wolverine couldn't really avoid his blows is just another testiment to his speed I should think.
The Wendigo in Fanfare didn't "have" to team up with Wolverine. Their fight wasn't going one way or the other before Wolverine got involved.

Originally posted by leonidas
i'm guessing we're talking about different versions. the one i'm talking about was at least cl100 and gave herc everything he could handle. Are you refering to the one from Herc's limited series?

Originally posted by leonidas
still shows his strength. overwhelming someone with thor's power is clearly pretty damn impressive. and perhaps the claws are not as sharp, for . . . some reason as wendy's are but they were never a threat in ANY way. it would require a truly devastating shot from wendy to actually incapacitate herc like you're suggesting. I didn't actually suggest that Wendigo was capible of landing that shot. As I said, the claws are sharp, durable, and long enough to gut Herc, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I think he WOULD gut Herc. Especially when my arguments sets it's premise in Wendigo landing a few claws shots only to effect Hercs performance before and in between landing more suitable blows with brute force.

Originally posted by leonidas
herc was stabbed in the stomach by arkon, i think (with one of his lightning bolts), and showed no ill-effects. went on to beat arkon down if memory serves. the she-hulk 'gutting' was done while she was distracted. she was easily avoiding the claws and smacking him around until she started screwing around. her skill<<herc. if this is bloodlusted herc, he would NOT be screwing around and a bloodlusted herc ko'd his daddy zeus.
Again I was only referencing the She-Hulk incident as proof of what Wends can cut through. Herc durability shouldn't put up much resistance against Wendigo's claws.

As for the thunderbolt.. I don't really think that was a legitimate stab.. Even if it did penetrate Herc's torso wouldn't the wound caurterize as soon as it exploded? Not really an accurate example of how Herc would deal with blood loss.

Originally posted by leonidas
hulk never TRIES to avoid them. that wouldn't happen against herc. Again the reference was to contrast what the claws are actually capible of rending through.. remember?

Originally posted by leonidas
and i've seen him refuse to engage a near-berserk wolverine. and i've seen it taken out by bullets. not all wendigo's are created equal. CIS isn't a reflection of Wendigo's powers.
Him going down to bullets just supports the pro-Wendi sucks vs. penetration idea.

Originally posted by leonidas
hulk/wendy fights are generally undecided (as are so many hulk fights) and again, there was a time when wolverine and wendy had to team against hulk. and just because wolverine was present doesn't mean hulk actually 'needed' his help or was 'forced' to work with wolverine. it's rather a testament to the fact that hulk and wolvie are working for the same goal -- namely stop wendigo. like one is gonna sit out and watch the other fight?
As are Herc's fights with Hulk.. and backup..
And again, Wendigo didn't HAVE to team up.. they ended up just going after Hulk at the same time because he happened to piss both of them off at the same time.

Originally posted by leonidas
it would take a devastating cut to take him out. he could easily handle a LOT of punishment. as i said, it depends on the host. some have proven fast enough to land that blow, others have no speed feats at all. there is still no evidence at all of a foe of this type EVER defeating herc. wendy IS a different breed. some hosts might take a split from him or potentially take even more than that. others would lose most of the time. Agreed, but I'm still thinking if Wendigo manages to even land a couple glancing swipes, blood loss will effect Herc performance.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by leonidas
now i really AM done with this thread. (gotta tourney to win. ) Well, you're still one of my favorites buddy.. good luck.

Originally posted by olympian
And the ownage carries on smoothly: More self congratulatory backpatting I see. Well no one else is around to back up your loosley based and wildly inaccruate claims so if somebody's got to do it, it might as well be you!

Originally posted by olympian
It surely means doing "better" than the ones where he outrigth "lost" in less than a "single page" to both guys who are weaker than "Hulk". And he didnt lost to those two together, no sir. He lost to each one alone.

You don't grasp the concepts of different types of durability do you? Being weaker than Hulk doesn't mean a damned thing. Wolverine was weaker than Hulk in his first appearance and he was still beating Wendigo back. Why? because the damage he produces has little to nothing to do with strength.

See your argument beckons one to believe that Wendigo was either holding his own or winning against Wolverine before Hulk jumped in during Incredible 181... He was doing neither. He was losing to Wolverine alone.
In Uncanny he lost to a stronger, faster, more instinctive and better Wolverine who wasn't lax and talking trash.
There's nothing "better" about his showing against Wolverine in 181 by any means.
And Snowbird? Again, doesn't prove anything as Courtier never fought her and succeeded where the second host failed. She's only a bad showing because you insist she's a bad showing.. that's not proof.


Originally posted by olympian
Are you in a retarded rocket science class? Hum?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Originally posted by olympian
And he didnt lost <<<<<<<<<<

Nope, it's not the remedial course, so I guess we won't be seeing eachother in class.

Originally posted by olympian
Are you conceading he wasent exactly a top tier, like he later became ?
Good boi. An attemp is one thing, being actually one is another. I'm fairly certain I just stated that the intention of the character was for top tier level...

Originally posted by olympian
O`really?:

http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengers35813eb.jpg
http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengers35824ss.jpg
http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengers35837lk.jpg

As far as help goes, you must be talking about some other encounter.

Yes... Really.

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/5692/arkongl5.jpg
"thanks fair crystal, thy assistance is ever welcome."
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/2006/arkon2hf9.jpg

And all that was after Arkon had stormed a heavily guarded temple:
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/3563/arkon3tc7.jpg

Of course.. you WOULD know this if you didn't suffer from such a horrible reading comprehension problem...


Hmmm
With you thinking all that happened in that Herc/Wolverine tussle was Wolvie getting tossed around....
That Wendigo fought to the last page of Hulk 181...
And this; thinking that the fight ended two pages before it was over with Arkon KOed...

it would appear as though you might be right about someone ripping pages out of your books.. It would seem your comics are cut as short as the buses you used to to ride into school.

Originally posted by olympian
As far as cheap shot goes, why are you complaining, boi? Didnt Logan did the exact same in one of the examples we are discussing? Oh yes he did:
http://img382.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture11005gk.jpg
Btw, you bastard. I told you NOT to rip off pages again!
I'm not complaining... I'm upholding it actually as a point of respect for Arkon seeing how cheapshots usually down a character more easily than in-fight punching exchange.. Of course I wouldn't expect you to grasp ahold of a point as easy as that.

Originally posted by olympian
Ben Grimm can hold hundred of tons. He has held at least a section of the Golden Gate bridge. And that still doesnt make him a top tier. Know why? He doesnt have better feats.
And that applies to Colossus how again?
Considering he DOES have better feats..

Originally posted by olympian
"Cl 100" doesnt translate into an accurate 100 tons. Never did.
Right, because you understand more about the intention of the characters and their powersets than Marvel does..
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=6191888

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Colossus%20agillity%20and%20speed/thCOLOSSUSBack.jpg



Originally posted by olympian
If giving erroneus interpretations about everything is the best you can do, im going to have a laugthing riot with you. Oh wait, im already there.

Erroneous?

Herc tossed Logan around (as if that's all that happened).
Wendigo was doing good.
Herc didn't have help and he did KO Arkon...




If making crap up without a leg of proof to stand on is then best you can do, don't bother waisting anymore of my time.


Originally posted by olympian
Sure, here is my bias:

You claimed Wolverine won especifically at h2h. And all i see is two panels with the beginning of the figth and the end. Nothing in the middle.
Explain to us, how you can tell the way the figth went, other than making things up on your own.
How can I tell you the way the fight went?
All I can tell you is what we see.
Wolverine vs. Herc 1on1
Facing one another.
Wolverine landing a blow.
Herc not landing a blow.
Herc reeling from Wolverine's blow.
Wolverine victorious.
Herc unconscious...


It stands to "reason" that it was h2h. IF those scans are of the beginning and the end of the fight (which you're not even in a place to say, it very well may be the middle and the end of the fight) we don't see foreign objects in either one of them. Wolverine beat Herc given the other bricks he's taken down, it's not surprising.

Originally posted by leonidas


look of "terror . . .?" i'd love to see that . . . hulk's been in plenty of similar situations. you're speculating he couldn't have gotten out of it himself. and wasn't that a banner controlled-hulk again in that fight?

The entire fight is posted in the Wendigo section under the host "Larry"

Lulz and your not? It was, but I take it you didn't see the fight between Hulk and Captain Mar-vell now did you? As this was not normal Banner controlled Hulk


Originally posted by leonidas

418/419 maybe? thor let's himself be beat up to restore herc's confidence, then herc proceed to shatter thunderball's ball, basically one-shots piledriver and bulldozer then starts to beat down wrecker. thor smacks wrecker away at the very end, but the point was made pretty clearly. i think thunderball even comments that piledriver and bulldozer have concussions or something as they all gathered to take off. they met in the avengers as well but i can't recall the issue #.

Lulz, talk about taking things out of context. First off Hercules was terrified of the Crew which he voiced several times in the issue, and then they fought in the issue and beat him pretty bad and it was Thor that saved him as they were going to kill him. So you saying Hercules solo'ed the Crew is wrong and taken out of context. Thunderball said they were "punchy" as in dizzy from the blows maybe have a concussion, but the Hercules hit he did on them was when they wern't even hitting him they were holding him. So not really that impressive as your making it out. Also Hercules hits Wrecker, but he was literally unphased by it and Thor didn't hit him away at the end, he summoned an energy storm and then they left...with all their members still standing, and Wrecker was still sure he could win.

Originally posted by jinzin
You don't grasp the concepts of different types of durability do you? Being weaker than Hulk doesn't mean a damned thing. Wolverine was weaker than Hulk in his first appearance and he was still beating Wendigo back. Why? because the damage he produces has little to nothing to do with strength

I love this argument. Love it.

Just because he could hurt Wendigo with his claws, you keep discounting Hulk`s credit in this figth. If the roles wer reversed in that last page and Hulk was the one to trow the last punch, would you give the nod to Hulk as well? When it took the teamwork of those two to wear down Wendigo?

And you try to use a rat ass argument and have it at the exact same level as showings go, to a Wendigo that fell quickier to both Logan and Snowbird alone?

Assasine.

Originally posted by jinzin
He was losing to Wolverine alone

And here it is the crux of the whole thing. He was losing to Wolverine alone but still lasted one page, figthing BOTH? If he was that weak, Hulk jumping at him rigth after the three panel worth of cutting would be enough to down him. But no. He took the cutting. He took Hulk`s attack afterwards. He had Logan jump at him and blind him, for Hulk to attack again, and then Logan made his finishing move.

This isent the end of all bricks showings, but you compare THIS to Wendigo losing, in a single page to Logan alone? And Snowbird?

Fail.

Originally posted by jinzin
In Uncanny he lost to a stronger, faster, more instinctive and better Wolverine who wasn't lax and talking trash
One interesting note: "Logan was stronger this time". The only way you know this is if you had compared his earlier showings to the current ones at the time. Its odd on why you dont do that to Wendigo as well, when other showings wer all better.

But i disgress.

He lost to a Wolverine without backup. He also lost to Snowbird alone who used a simple animal form. You keep forgetting that we arent talking about only Wolverine here. Every single showing of this Wendigo kind of pales next to the others.

Originally posted by jinzin
And Snowbird? Again, doesn't prove anything as Courtier never fought her and succeeded where the second host failed. She's only a bad showing because you insist she's a bad showing.. that's not proof

Explain to me how it isent a lower showing than the others. Try.

And try without the idiocity that you and King are bawling about her mystical nature power. She didnt cast any magic, she used her internal power to transform into an animal. Thats what she does. Just like Superman`s natural power source is the sun. It doesnt mean that when he punches someone, he leaves the person with a sunburn, does it?

A simple animal. Who didnt sported a mystical shield, or balloney like that. Who didnt cast anyhing on Wendigo.

If you keep sporting otherwise Hercules and co, wins this. Easily. They all have a mystical source for theyr power.

Originally posted by jinzin
Nope, it's not the remedial course, so I guess we won't be seeing eachother in class.

They dont let us of the advance class talk with the retard ones.

Wich is crude if you ask me

Originally posted by jinzin
Yes... Really.

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/5692/arkongl5.jpg
"thanks fair crystal, thy assistance is ever welcome."
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/2006/arkon2hf9.jpg

And all that was after Arkon had stormed a heavily guarded temple:
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/3563/arkon3tc7.jpg

Of course.. you WOULD know this if you didn't suffer from such a horrible reading comprehension problem...

Is it?

In the same panel where Crystal went to assist (because as you say, Hercules couldnt take him down), I dont see Hercules ever in any kind of problem with Arkon.

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/5692/arkongl5.jpg

Hes getting beaten. On his own. All she did was to interrupt a figth for them to move on to the next move. You know this, if you have obviously read the book.Crystal even mentions how "i will help, because its what teameates do, even tho, you know Hercules is cleary owning his ass".

Of course Hercules would thank her. If you read that whole run, you would see Hercules flirting with her almost every issue. Its called being cordial with the ladies, nothing new to the character in question. Thats how he steals pootang under Logan`s nose

In contrast, Hulk didnt just showed up in the *end* while Logan was dominating against Wendigo. He was there the whole duration of the figth, punching the guy as much as Logan was attacking the same opponent. In fact, Logan was the one show who showed up when the other two wer already punching each other for something like four pages.

Once more, you show your inability to compare showings. It must be cronical. And you know what they say about cronical: better contact your doctor ASAP.

Loved that temple trashing feat, btw.

Originally posted by jinzin
And that applies to Colossus how again?
Considering he DOES have better feats..

Than who? Ben?

He doesnt. He only got that off panel "win" against Abomination, and all the suggestion there is, is that it was the whole X-Men team that took him down.

Originally posted by jinzin
Right, because you understand more about the intention of the characters and their powersets than Marvel does..

Tells the pottle to the kettle.

While i feel tempted to rall on shiat like the Handbooks to make that point moot, No. It is because i can read showings and you cant. At least unless the character in question is Wolverine, wich in that case you will go on "how he gets stronger".

Wich is assasine in a debate.

Originally posted by jinzin
Erroneous?..

Yes. Watch:

Originally posted by jinzin
Herc tossed Logan around (as if that's all that happened).

So you concead he was tossed around? You didnt, before. Yes, from Herc`s part, he tossed the runt around. Wich was what you asked me about. "What did Hercules do"?

He tossed him around.

Originally posted by jinzin
Wendigo was doing good...

uh, huh. "Better" than the other two showings. Wich is fact. On any board.

Originally posted by jinzin
Herc didn't have help and he did KO Arkon..

Odd. You wer the one who brougth this showing up and i didnt said he knocked him. It couldnt even be his porpuse even, since the Avengers needed Arkon to tell him what happened to the place where they met.

As for the help, i already took care of that up there.

Originally posted by jinzin
How can I tell you the way the fight went?
All I can tell you is what we see.
Wolverine vs. Herc 1on1
Facing one another.
Wolverine landing a blow.
Herc not landing a blow.
Herc reeling from Wolverine's blow.
Wolverine victorious.
Herc unconscious...


It stands to "reason" that it was h2h. IF those scans are of the beginning and the end of the fight (which you're not even in a place to say, it very well may be the middle and the end of the fight) we don't see foreign objects in either one of them. Wolverine beat Herc given the other bricks he's taken down, it's not surprising.

Can you explain how a bone claw who isent backed up by Adamantium didnt just broke against Immortal Hercules? Low Showing? Popularity issue? Stupidity?

You keep saying how he beat bricks on Herc`s level and all i can see are minor examples. Its such a deja vu again.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Lulz, talk about taking things out of context. First off Hercules was terrified of the Crew which he voiced several times in the issue, and then they fought in the issue and beat him pretty bad and it was Thor that saved him as they were going to kill him. So you saying Hercules solo'ed the Crew is wrong and taken out of context.

King, why dont you just ask the scans of the whole thing, before saying its taken out of context? Im sure someone must have them in store.

Hercules was suffering a confidence problem and Thor put himself into harm`s way on porpuse for Hercules to come on his senses. When he saw Thor being beaten (on porpuse) he went nuts, and put them down alone, fairly quickly at that and busted some of theyr weapons into dust in the process.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Thunderball said they were "punchy" as in dizzy from the blows maybe have a concussion, but the Hercules hit he did on them was when they wern't even hitting him they were holding him. So not really that impressive as your making it out.

Hercules didnt punched the ones that wer holding him still. He just lifted the arms and had them knocked heads.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Also Hercules hits Wrecker, but he was literally unphased by it and Thor didn't hit him away at the end, he summoned an energy storm and then they left...with all their members still standing, and Wrecker was still sure he could win.

Hulk is confident that he can win against anybody. That doesnt make him true.

That doesnt really change that they couldnt do a single thing when the duo decided to figth back. Plus, just because someone isent knocked out, it doesnt mean they wont look bad or that they didnt lost. How often do people this strong get knocked out in a head on battle? Fairly little.

I think its more odd that you hold Snowbird in a "wolverine" form in higher esteem.

.........you don't know much about wolverines do you? She did not take the actual form of a normal wolverine.

First you ask me if i know about Wolverines, like they are that comic book impressive, but rigth after you make a comment on how the form she took was somehow more impressive than a regular Wolverine.

Wich is it? Proof, please.

Originally posted by olympian
First you ask me if i know about Wolverines, like they are that comic book impressive, but rigth after you make a comment on how the form she took was somehow more impressive than a regular Wolverine.

Wich is it? Proof, please.

........well the fact she far bigger then a wolverine is proof enough...........wolverine are extremely small...........she was quite big far bigger then a real wolverine............

Originally posted by -K-M-
Issues? I don't recall this, not saying your wrong just don't remember it

I would have to look for it, since i dont know by heart. If you can acess to Hercules tread in SHC, Thorion post it there.

It was during Hercules beardless tenure before he lost immortality, i think. If i can get it, ill post it, but i only saw it, i dont own it.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Not really especially since the Crew were still in fighting form and the Crew would have killed Hercules if Thor didn't interfer.

"Kill"? When? Afer he pounded on them, or when they had the confidence of watching him as a feeble former shadow?

Originally posted by -K-M-
Yes I know, but mortal/immortal Hercules line has been blurred over the years now

That blurred line only started when guys like Jurgens wer writting him as not depowered over "Thor" when pretty much at the same time guys like Busiek wer writting him wih the knowlege of loss of power over "Thunderbolts and "Avengers".

During the H4H days, however, his status was clear. It was fresh out of his Avengers last tenure where he lost power, of Hulk`s figth in the one shot and his 90`s mini.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Against Hulk or Wendigo? Sure I can see him taking a few wins from Wendigo or Hulk, but majority? Naaaa...

Wendigo. And that is exactly what i have been saying all along. It depends on the Wendigo in question. The Wendigo doesnt have always the same level of showings.

I surely wouldnt have Hercules take a majority over the one that fougth Savage and Sasquatch at the same time. But i dont find ludricious one bit for him to take a majority over the one that didnt lasted more than a page of worth against either Wolverine and Snowbird. And its not even the point of selling them short, its how the showing is actualy short in measure compared to the others.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
........well the fact she far bigger then a wolverine is proof enough...........wolverine are extremely small...........she was quite big far bigger then a real wolverine............

Proof enough of what? That the wolverine form was powered up? From what? She didnt cast any magic for it to happen. She transforms into what she desires thanks to the mystical power source she wields that is connected to her hometown.

And she chosed to transform into a "wolverine". Whereas on another ocassion, with backup she went into a more dangerous shape: Wendigo himself. Surely the degree of levels here are exactly he same for both versions

If someone can just post the page, go ahead. They surely compared her to an actual Wolverine, regarding the size issue, if that is revelant at all.

Originally posted by jinzin
Here maybe you can post where Hulk is in these panels helping Wolverine....

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/6775/hulk181ctg9.jpg

How about posting the whole figth?

Then anyone can look at it and realize why you hang up to that page alone like your life depends on it.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/uxm140pg17.jpg

Can anyone show me what else did she do other than using her mystical power source to transform into an actual wolverine? Im aware that in the last instance others showed up, but without actually figthing and that Logan was cold for a moment by a sneack hit. But this doesnt scream as impressive as Hulk and Sasquatch or Captain marvel or Wolverine and the Alpha Fligth in a lenghty all out battle...odd.

There is even a mention that physical force can overcome the Wendigo (even tho i wont go far as saying its all of them) for moments, no matter if it is in Canada or not.

............real wolveriens are not white nor are they any were closes to that sizes...........

Any animal that Snowbird transforms into is white. That doesnt translate into anything at all.

What i am asking is: if the animal in question compares to an actual wolverine or it was a juiced up version 10 times more powerful or the sort And all i see is a mention about how its compared to an actual wolverine. Nothing more.

Is the size of the animal that is getting things confused? I higly doubt that Byrne went into exact measure of sizes as long it looked credible as far as proportions go. But then again, wait:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolverine

He doesnt really strick me as being that small.

.............there brown which is what your sources even showed..........



snow bird wolverine was huge............and actual wolverine looks small next to a wolf let a lone the wolverine snow bird turn into.........

Originally posted by olympian
I love this argument. Love it.

I don't see why. When you're not running around making yourself look like an asswipe you're looking the fool instead.

Originally posted by olympian
Just because he could hurt Wendigo with his claws, you keep discounting Hulk`s credit in this figth. If the roles wer reversed in that last page and Hulk was the one to trow the last punch, would you give the nod to Hulk as well? When it took the teamwork of those two to wear down Wendigo?
That's the whole damned point. He was hurting Wendigo without Hulk's help. He was staggering him back, weakening him.. he was winning. Why accredit Hulk with anything when he didn't jump in till afterwards.

Originally posted by olympian
And you try to use a rat ass argument and have it at the exact same level as showings go, to a Wendigo that fell quickier to both Logan and Snowbird alone?

Assasine.

Considering couterier's showing against Wolverine was almost identical and given that he never even fought Snowbird, the only thin asinine here is you thinking you have proof of anything.


Originally posted by olympian
And here it is the crux of the whole thing. He was losing to Wolverine alone but still lasted one page, figthing BOTH? If he was that weak, Hulk jumping at him rigth after the three panel worth of cutting would be enough to down him. But no. He took the cutting. He took Hulk`s attack afterwards. He had Logan jump at him and blind him, for Hulk to attack again, and then Logan made his finishing move.
This isent the end of all bricks showings, but you compare THIS to Wendigo losing, in a single page to Logan alone? And Snowbird?
Fail.

It's painful that I have to point out such an obvious point to you but I guess I shouldn't really expect much more from you. The pretty pictures you like to look at oh so gleefully are only a portion of the comic. The words matter too. In the particular case of uncanny we're treated to a simple matter of storytelling taking precedence over panel time.. Sure there's four panels but we're given that it takes place over a "matter of minutes"... Perhaps you're unaware how long several minutes can be in a fight. But if you're sprinting, even 10 seconds is half a lifetime. Wolverine? He's a guy who fought Omega Red for 18 hours and maxed out the danger room without even an elevated raise in his heart beat.. but he was pooped after his four panel fight with Wendigo... why? Because it was days of nonstop combat compacted into those minutes. Wendigo lasting minutes against a Berserker Raged out Wolverine who can strike multiple times in a single second is a far superior showing that falling back against a lax, hit talking Wolverine.

Snowbird's nothing more thn a logical fallacy since Courtier Wendigo never fought her.

As I said before, if I AM failing here, it's because you're doing enough failing for the both of us.


Originally posted by olympian
One interesting note: "Logan was stronger this time". The only way you know this is if you had compared his earlier showings to the current ones at the time. Its odd on why you dont do that to Wendigo as well, when other showings wer all better.

But i disgress.
You have absolutely no clue what a berserker rage implies do you?


Originally posted by olympian
He lost to a Wolverine without backup. He also lost to Snowbird alone who used a simple animal form. You keep forgetting that we arent talking about only Wolverine here. Every single showing of this Wendigo kind of pales next to the others.

In spite of recovering faster than Courtier did from Wolverine's knock out blow?
In spite of having speed feats?
Or Koing Logan with several hits?

Yeah that really pales to Courtier...



Originally posted by olympian
Explain to me how it isent a lower showing than the others. Try.

Just did.. Don't think another serving of logic and facts are going to help you much though.

Originally posted by olympian
And try without the idiocity that you and King are bawling about her mystical nature power. She didnt cast any magic, she used her internal power to transform into an animal. Thats what she does. Just like Superman`s natural power source is the sun. It doesnt mean that when he punches someone, he leaves the person with a sunburn, does it?
A simple animal. Who didnt sported a mystical shield, or balloney like that. Who didnt cast anyhing on Wendigo.
If you keep sporting otherwise Hercules and co, wins this. Easily. They all have a mystical source for theyr power.

Not a Canadian drawn power source. In any case Snowbird's a logical fallacy she doesn't prove anything one way or the other.


Originally posted by olympian
They dont let us of the advance class talk with the retard ones.

Wich is crude if you ask me
"advanced" remedial is still remedial.



Originally posted by olympian
Is it?

In the same panel where Crystal went to assist (because as you say, Hercules couldnt take him down), I dont see Hercules ever in any kind of problem with Arkon.
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/5692/arkongl5.jpg
Hes getting beaten. On his own. All she did was to interrupt a figth for them to move on to the next move. You know this, if you have obviously read the book.Crystal even mentions how "i will help, because its what teameates do, even tho, you know Hercules is cleary owning his ass".
Of course Hercules would thank her. If you read that whole run, you would see Hercules flirting with her almost every issue. Its called being cordial with the ladies, nothing new to the character in question. Thats how he steals pootang under Logan`s nose

I didn't argue that Herc was having loads of trouble with Arkon or that he couldn't beat Arkon in a fight.. I was arguing that he couldn't put Arkon down to a KO, with help, and cheapshots. And that's exactly what took place so it can't even be argued from your end. Nice strawman though, you must loooooovvvve Wizard of Oz.


Originally posted by olympian
In contrast, Hulk didnt just showed up in the *end* while Logan was dominating against Wendigo. He was there the whole duration of the figth, punching the guy as much as Logan was attacking the same opponent. In fact, Logan was the one show who showed up when the other two wer already punching each other for something like four pages.
They stopped fighting for a minute when Logan showed up. Logan jumped Hulk first and Wendigo has a healing factor that runs on magic... Nuff said really.

Originally posted by olympian
Once more, you show your inability to compare showings. It must be cronical. And you know what they say about cronical: better contact your doctor ASAP.
Loved that temple trashing feat, btw.
Nah, the only one showing any inability here is you with comprehension again considering the character in question was brought up to showcase that Colossus DID KO Arkon, and with something that was less durable than he was and with a lower number of hits no less.
Herc had every possible advantage; Surprise, help, and fatigue, landed more hits, and STILL couldn't get the job done... You're defection that Herc wasn't out to KO Arkon is completely speculation and totally inaccurate compared to how he went about things.

Originally posted by olympian
Than who? Ben?

He doesnt. He only got that off panel "win" against Abomination, and all the suggestion there is, is that it was the whole X-Men team that took him down.
You know that's not the only comparative example between the two right?



Originally posted by olympian
Tells the pottle to the kettle.

While i feel tempted to rall on shiat like the Handbooks to make that point moot, No. It is because i can read showings and you cant. At least unless the character in question is Wolverine, wich in that case you will go on "how he gets stronger".

Wich is assasine in a debate.

Ugghhhh it's POT to the kettle.. and no.. I'm not dictating that I have a better understanding for the characters and their intention than Marvel does as you certainly are. Insisting that Colossus isn't a class 100. We've got Omega sentinals that are stated to be around 100 tons and Colossus is tossing them, you discarded that since you seemed to think that they didn't actually mean 100 tons.. as long as it serves your argument, thus I bring in handbooks to show you something more official...

Oh you can read showings better than me huh?
"Herc KOed Arkon"
"Wendigo did good"
"All that happened was Herc tossed him around"

Yeah.. you keep telling yourself that "kid".

And no Wolverine getting stronger during a berserker rage is not asinine.. (again that's "asinine" not assinine.. Once more, if you're going to attempt to insult me try not to look like an idiot while doing so).... it's crucial to the CONTEXT of the storyline. And context means everything in these types of arguments about feats and fights.


Originally posted by olympian
Yes. Watch:
So you concead he was tossed around? You didnt, before. Yes, from Herc`s part, he tossed the runt around. Wich was what you asked me about. "What did Hercules do"?
He tossed him around.
Uh no.. No one asked you what Herc did. You submitted the fight as proof for why you were discarding the CoC2 fight as legit. You're statement was that Wolverine got tossed around with heavy implications that that's all that took place.. When you look at the entirety of the fight, that isn't the case... Night attempt to backtrack though, you're almost as good with the MJ moon walk as you are at building scarecrows out of straws.

Originally posted by olympian
uh, huh. "Better" than the other two showings. Wich is fact. On any board. That doesn't even BEGIN to resemble a "fact".



Originally posted by olympian
Odd. You wer the one who brougth this showing up and i didnt said he knocked him. It couldnt even be his porpuse even, since the Avengers needed Arkon to tell him what happened to the place where they met.

As for the help, i already took care of that up there. You DEFINITELY implied it "ORLY".....

Keep moon walking right out of the thread.



Originally posted by olympian
Can you explain how a bone claw who isent backed up by Adamantium didnt just broke against Immortal Hercules? Low Showing? Popularity issue? Stupidity?

Because Wolverine's bones are denser than any humans which is something he's stated many many times before.
Herc isn't the only brick Wolverine's cut or hurt with bone claws... Hulk included.

Originally posted by olympian
You keep saying how he beat bricks on Herc`s level and all i can see are minor examples. Its such a deja vu again.
Pffffttt right

"minor examples" like Namor, Hulk, and Hercules himself....

You're right though, me having to continuously point out you errors and correct you is very much like deja vu.

I love how you continuously ignore this:


"Your argument falls face first on the very premise it's built upon.

Any Wendigo that fight Hulk might beat Herc but any Wendigo that goes down to Wolverine or Sabes certainly can't take Herc?
Uh-huh... Except that Herc has lost to Wolverine, Hulk as lost to Wolverine, and a guy with enhanced reflexes and fighting ability who stalemated Herc in strength lost to Sabretooth. Or that the Wendigo that this thread has specified WAS losing to Wolverine before Hulk jumped in to help finish Wendigo off. Hulk accredits that Wolverine did in one hit what Hulk himself failed to do. Or the fact that just losing to Snowbird doesn't mean anything for host 2 compared to host 1 since Cortier never fought Snowbird, hence never beat her, hence giving no proof one way or th other that he would fair any better than the second host did........."

Originally posted by jinzin
You know that's not the only comparative example between the two right?

Overall, hes got less examples than Ben.

Originally posted by jinzin
Insisting that Colossus isn't a class 100.

He isent cl 100. And if you go preaching that on any other board, it only gets you to one place: mocking heaven.

CL100 never translated into just 100 tons. Especially when all the major bricks have lifted or towed things far heavier than that. So if you want to count Colossus in the "top tier" group, he is in the lowest bracet. Like the basement.

Originally posted by jinzin
We've got Omega sentinals that are stated to be around 100 tons and Colossus is tossing them, you discarded that since you seemed to think that they didn't actually mean 100 tons.. as long as it serves your argument, thus I bring in handbooks to show you something more official...

If tossing 100 tons alone is enough to be top tier, then Ben Grimm is top tier. Rigth?

Originally posted by jinzin
Oh you can read showings better than me huh?

That isent really hard.

Originally posted by jinzin
"Herc KOed Arkon"

Knocked around. And he did. He was the one falling to the floor

Originally posted by jinzin
"Wendigo did good"

In comparation with how he fared against Logan and Snowbird alone? Hell yes. A thousand times yes.

Originally posted by jinzin
it's crucial to the CONTEXT of the storyline. And context means everything in these types of arguments about feats and fights.

Do that to Wendigo then, you overbearing idiot.

Originally posted by jinzin
You're statement was that Wolverine got tossed around with heavy implications that that's all that took place..

How can that be when i said that logan brougth him down with the table in the end?

CONTEXT of the story: Who was annoyed? Herc. Who slapped the other guy across the room? Herc. Who trapped the other guy afterwards and mocked him more? Herc.

He sure looked the worst of the two!

Even any exagerattion i may had on my part is more accurate than yours. Thats how shitty your face is.

Originally posted by jinzin
You DEFINITELY implied it "ORLY".....

Of course i did. You told me Herc couldnt beat him down without Crystal to assist him, while all she did was to create an earthquake in the end to interrupt a figth. While stating Hercules wasent having any trouble in his own. While all Hulk did was already figthing someone when Logan stepped in and assist him during the rest of the same.

"only".

Post both complete figths and come again to say who needed help to down the opponent, because it is cleary the same. For idiots mayhaps.

Originally posted by jinzin
Because Wolverine's bones are denser than any humans which is something he's stated many many times before.
Herc isn't the only brick Wolverine's cut or hurt with bone claws... Hulk included.

My Gawd, more dense than "humans"? Awesome.

So, its a low showing coupled with popularity?

Ok.

Originally posted by jinzin
Pffffttt right

"minor examples" like Namor, Hulk, and Hercules himself....

Im sure the majority of his encounters with all those wer wins.

Like that "Hulk lost" list you provided. Biggest piece of crap i have seen recently on a board. Would you even provided the whole set of complete scans for me to see those wonderful wins?

I may bring them to other boards so i can get a laugthing riot.

Originally posted by jinzin
Any Wendigo that fight Hulk might beat Herc but any Wendigo that goes down to Wolverine or Sabes certainly can't take Herc?

For a majority? No.

Originally posted by jinzin
Uh-huh... Except that Herc has lost to Wolverine

In an off panel match where you could see nothing of of the direction the figth went.

Originally posted by jinzin
Hulk as lost to Wolverine

I keep waiting for those decisive wins hes got under his belt.

Originally posted by jinzin
and a guy with enhanced reflexes and fighting ability who stalemated Herc in strength lost to Sabretooth

Low showings are a strange conceot to you, arent they? If the case in question happened without any plot point at all.

I find it odd that you dont see a Wendigo performing poorly to Snowbird and Logan in comparation with other matches that usually sported a direct teamwork of heavy guns as something akin to a low showing. Except that in Wendigo`s case, we are aware that the host determines how dangerous Wendigo will be. So it may not be a case of a simple low showing. But even still its not on the level of others. That pegs that particular version down in direct comparation with some of the others.

Its exactly the concept of low showings that pegs Hercules and other bricks lower, because otherwise lower opponents in level wouldnt do much at all.

And yet to say they take a majority just because of the figthing chance that low showings provide, its something arguable at best.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
.............there brown which is what your sources even showed..........



snow bird wolverine was huge............and actual wolverine looks small next to a wolf let a lone the wolverine snow bird turn into.........

The narration states it compares with an actual wolverine. Her color of choice doesnt matter.

Just go back to bed. Christ.

Originally posted by olympian
The narration states it compares with an actual wolverine. Her color of choice doesnt matter.

Just go back to bed. Christ.

It may look like an actual wolverine, but it clearlly not. It was not the same color, and it was far to large to be one.

sorry, but if are trying to act like it was some normal wolverine, when it clearly was not

The writer disagress with you.

Sorry if you are trying to make it look like something that isent there, but it doesnt surprise me given how idiotic your argument is.

I would also suggest you to stop being racist towards Snowbird. Its rude.

Originally posted by olympian
The writer disagress with you.
Not really. She took the form of a wolverine it never said a normal wolverine

Originally posted by olympian
Sorry if you are trying to make it look like something that isent there, but it doesnt surprise me given how idiotic your argument is.


actaully it is there. Wolverines are not normally white.

Wolverines are not normally that big.

how is my arguement idiotic? Why becuases you dislike the fact your wrong in trying to argue that she turn into an average every day wolverine.


Originally posted by olympian
I would also suggest you to stop being racist towards Snowbird. Its rude.

...............................................shut up

Originally posted by olympian
The narration states it compares with an actual wolverine. Her color of choice doesnt matter.

Just go back to bed. Christ.

You really think that snowbird turned into a normal sized wolverine?

It is clear that it is way too big for a normal wolverine...way to big.

I dont know who will get the majority, i think its that close. i would tend to lean towards wendigo,


Jinzin....it seems you are handling things well in this thread

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Not really. She took the form of a wolverine it never said a normal wolverine

The narration goes to the point to compare Logan to an actual Wolverine and say hes less ferocious. Then the narration turns to Snowbird and refers to how she then transformed into the "real" deal.

The "real" deal compared to Wolverine who wasent the "real" deal.

And nothing at all suggesting its another kind of carcajou, other than the one who roams the same lands.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
actaully it is there. Wolverines are not normally white.

Neither are monkeys, but if Snowbird wants to transform into a monkey it will be white. And the fact its white wont stop the monkey into being a monkey.

Its even in the damn name. SNOWbird. What is the color of snow? Its hum.......white?

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Wolverines are not normally that big.

"In appearance the wolverine resembles a small bear with a long tail"

Next you are going to try give me a rundown on how you can perceive on the paper if the carcajou in question is bigger or not.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
how is my arguement idiotic? Why becuases you dislike the fact your wrong in trying to argue that she turn into an average every day wolverine.

Give me factual proof and ill concead. Give me bullshit and i wont.


Originally posted by Battlehammer
..............................................shut up

I will when you stop being racist.

Originally posted by starlock
You really think that snowbird turned into a normal sized wolverine?

It is clear that it is way too big for a normal wolverine...way to big.


"In appearance the wolverine resembles a small bear with a long tail"

You people act like the adult carcajou is of the same size of a rabbit.

I also want to know how you can tell on paper if its bigger than what is above or not. Especially when the narration doesnt make a mention to it, wich it should if it was a different sort of carcajou.

Originally posted by olympian


Post both complete figths and come again to say who needed help to down the opponent, because it is cleary the same. For idiots mayhaps.

Id like to see them as well....then again maybe I wanna stay out of this too much stuff.

Originally posted by olympian
"In appearance the wolverine resembles a small bear with a long tail"

You people act like the adult carcajou is of the same size of a rabbit.



I also want to know how you can tell on paper if its bigger than what is above or not. Especially when the narration doesnt make a mention to it, wich it should if it was a different sort of carcajou.


My friend has a cat that resembles a lepard, there is still a huuuuuge size difference

Ive seen wolverines, i also watched many wilderness shows, the wolverine that snowbird turned into was way to big, i can tell by how big it/she is compared to wendigo...

I am not arguing if a small or large wolverine can take wendigo, as far as i am concerned it dont matter, it was snowbird thats all.

Originally posted by olympian
Overall, hes got less examples than Ben. No.. he's got more examples of not only being Ben's superior but being closer to top tier level.

He certainly lasted longer than Ben against WWH.



Originally posted by olympian
He isent cl 100. And if you go preaching that on any other board, it only gets you to one place: mocking heaven.
You know, for someone demanding proof from Battlehammer you certainly don't bring any to the table do you?
I've already posted 6 examples of him being top tier. You're simply defecting the logical fallacy of ad nauseum.


Originally posted by olympian
CL100 never translated into just 100 tons. Especially when all the major bricks have lifted or towed things far heavier than that. So if you want to count Colossus in the "top tier" group, he is in the lowest bracet. Like the basement.
And yet he lasted longer against WWH dishing it out than Herc did too.... funny that. Just more ad nauseum.

Originally posted by olympian
If tossing 100 tons alone is enough to be top tier, then Ben Grimm is top tier. Rigth?
I'm guessing you're just ignoring the part where Colossus is stronger, faster, and more durable than Thing huh?


Originally posted by olympian
That isent really hard.

Lol, I'm beggining to wonder if you read at all..

"Colossus is able to lift more than 100 tons"

You retort: "He can't lift 100 tons".. pffft.

Originally posted by olympian
Knocked around. And he did. He was the one falling to the floor
Uh-huh and I don't see where anyone was arguing otherwise..

Let's go back to COMPREHENSION again.. the argument was that Herc failed to knock him out with cheap shots and help.. you're response? "ORLY" with another inaccurate misrepresentation of the end of the encounter.
Man, you're so good at backtracking, doing that Michael Jackson moonwalk.

Originally posted by olympian
In comparation with how he fared against Logan and Snowbird alone? Hell yes. A thousand times yes.
A huh.. he lasted longer against a stronger faster Wolverine than the one who fought a lax Wolverine... way better..

And a thousand times... Snowbird is a logical fallacy.. not thatyou care much about logic.

Originally posted by olympian
Do that to Wendigo then, you overbearing idiot.
Have been since day one mr "Wendigo did good!" duryes

Originally posted by olympian
How can that be when i said that logan brougth him down with the table in the end?
Because you ignored that until I brought it to everyone's attention.

Originally posted by olympian
CONTEXT of the story: Who was annoyed? Herc. Who slapped the other guy across the room? Herc. Who trapped the other guy afterwards and mocked him more? Herc.
He sure looked the worst of the two!
Even any exagerattion i may had on my part is more accurate than yours. Thats how shitty your face is.

How shitty my face is huh? Remember when we went over how insults aren't as effective when they don't make any sense?

I'm not sure how Wolverine looked the worse of the two.. Let's see.. was he at any point cowering away from Herc scared of his offensive abilities? Nope....
Was he grabbing foreign objects in order to shield himself from Hercs attacks? nu-uh...
Wait I know! Was it that he ended the fight on the floor rubbing his head?
Nah.. that can't be it either.. those were all things that Herc did...

Lol, but when you're getting mocked you look sooo much worse... I guess Deadpool really handled Juggernaught right? Or Daken?
I mean he was mocking away so he must have won.. the same way Spiderman wins all his fights when he mocks Venom..

Originally posted by olympian
Of course i did. You told me Herc couldnt beat him down without Crystal to assist him, while all she did was to create an earthquake in the end to interrupt a figth. While stating Hercules wasent having any trouble in his own. While all Hulk did was already figthing someone when Logan stepped in and assist him during the rest of the same. Uh no.... What was said was that Colossus took down Arkon in two hits which is something that Herc failed to do with cheap shots and help.. That.. is .... True.....

At no point did I say that Herc couldn't or didn't beat him, the point was that it took him longer, more hits, and he failed to knock Arkon out using every advantage possible when Colossus did it in two hits.
The difference between us here is that I'm not setting up the case that Herc couldn't take Arkon down without help as that WOULD be asinine.. Just that he didn't KO him with it and the time/factors provided You on the other hand seem to think Logan needed Hulk to take Wendigo down

Originally posted by olympian
"only".
Ummmm no.... >>>>>>Originally posted by olympian
O`really?:
<<<<<<<<<
There you go owning yourself again... Maybe that's what you ment when you said the "Ownage carries on smoothly"..

Originally posted by olympian
Post both complete figths and come again to say who needed help to down the opponent, because it is cleary the same. For idiots mayhaps.
Why? The Arkon fight is posted in full here.
The Wendigo fight is in the Wendigo respect thread for anyone to see.
I never said that Herc needed help to beat Arkon.. just that he didn't put him down with help.. and he didn't...


Originally posted by olympian
My Gawd, more dense than "humans"? Awesome.
Wolverine's not a human.. he's a mutant.. And he's not even a normal Mutant.. Hell Dr. Lang's assisstants even figured out his physiology wasn't normal as far back as his 8th appearance...
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/4535/shackleshu2.jpg

Originally posted by olympian
So, its a low showing coupled with popularity?
Ok.
Ad nauseum...

Originally posted by olympian
Im sure the majority of his encounters with all those wer wins. Or stalemates.. Yes...

Originally posted by olympian
Like that "Hulk lost" list you provided. Biggest piece of crap i have seen recently on a board. Would you even provided the whole set of complete scans for me to see those wonderful wins?
Hulk has lost a few to Wolverine.. but it was actually a stalemate list... Comprehension. Comprehension. Comprehension.
Originally posted by olympian
I may bring them to other boards so i can get a laugthing riot. You're gonna HAVE to go to other boards, no one's supporting your bias nonsense here... Oh except you that is.... thumbsup

Just how long has Colossus ever lasted in a fight against Juggernaut when it was just the two of them?

Originally posted by olympian
For a majority? No.
And based on what? Losing to Wolverine.. DOH! But Herc's lost to Wolverne too.

Originally posted by olympian
In an off panel match where you could see nothing of of the direction the figth went.

you keep telling yourself that.

Originally posted by olympian
I keep waiting for those decisive wins hes got under his belt.
We've already gone over them.
Originally posted by olympian
Low showings are a strange conceot to you, arent they? If the case in question happened without any plot point at all.
Hmmm I'm not sure what "conceot" is... perhaps it's because I'm an idiot. It's not a low showing just because you say it is. Wolverine and Sabretooth are deadly enough to be legitimate threats to high class strong guys... Always have been.

Originally posted by olympian
I find it odd that you dont see a Wendigo performing poorly to Snowbird and Logan in comparation with other matches that usually sported a direct teamwork of heavy guns as something akin to a low showing. Except that in Wendigo`s case, we are aware that the host determines how dangerous Wendigo will be. So it may not be a case of a simple low showing. But even still its not on the level of others. That pegs that particular version down in direct comparation with some of the others. He's not on the level of others... in spite of having speed, strength, and recovery feats on par with the others... Yup... The thing is... Wendigo doesn't perform well against Wolverine.... or anyone who can cut the crap out of him.

Mauvais' blades,
Wolverine,
Sabretooth,
Snowbird,
Werewolf by Night... He simply has a bad durability vs. evisceration. And that included the Wendigo that fought Hulk indefinitely.. So your argument really.. well... it's bad..


Originally posted by olympian
Its exactly the concept of low showings that pegs Hercules and other bricks lower, because otherwise lower opponents in level wouldnt do much at all.

And yet to say they take a majority just because of the figthing chance that low showings provide, its something arguable at best.

Wolverine's a character who can take more damage from Herc than the otherway around specifically because of what he brings to the table it has nothing to do with low showings.
Lol @ you thinking over 100 fights against bricks is a low showing every time.

Originally posted by starlock
You really think that snowbird turned into a normal sized wolverine?

It is clear that it is way too big for a normal wolverine...way to big.

I dont know who will get the majority, i think its that close. i would tend to lean towards wendigo,


Jinzin....it seems you are handling things well in this thread thanks

Yes, it was not a normal sized wolverine as she turns into human sized animals or things bigger, but generally she can't transform into something with less mass then her. Hence why she transforms into a human mass-sized owl most of the time

Could Hercules put Wendigo down, Hulk couldn't.

Originally posted by olympian
King, why dont you just ask the scans of the whole thing, before saying its taken out of context? Im sure someone must have them in store.

I actually have posted the entire fight, it's in the Wrecking Crew respect thread.

Shamless plug:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t453738.html

Originally posted by olympian

Hercules was suffering a confidence problem and Thor put himself into harm`s way on porpuse for Hercules to come on his senses. When he saw Thor being beaten (on porpuse) he went nuts, and put them down alone, fairly quickly at that and busted some of theyr weapons into dust in the process.

Oh I know, as it was because of what happened in Avengers. I even posted these scans and talked about it in the Wrecking Crew to give context. I have a problem where Leo said he took out the entire Crew here himself...when he didn't. He looked awesome, but he didn't flat out beat them

1. http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t105/DC_CaptainComet/Thor_1990_418_03.jpg
2. http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t105/DC_CaptainComet/Thor_1990_418_04.jpg

Originally posted by olympian

Hercules didnt punched the ones that wer holding him still. He just lifted the arms and had them knocked heads.

Yeppers, made mention of it later on. Still not the same if they were fighting back

1. http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t105/DC_CaptainComet/Thor_1990_418_15.jpg
2. http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t105/DC_CaptainComet/Thor_1990_418_16.jpg

Originally posted by olympian
Hulk is confident that he can win against anybody. That doesnt make him true.

That doesnt really change that they couldnt do a single thing when the duo decided to figth back. Plus, just because someone isent knocked out, it doesnt mean they wont look bad or that they didnt lost. How often do people this strong get knocked out in a head on battle? Fairly little.

I think its more odd that you hold Snowbird in a "wolverine" form in higher esteem.

That was more of a comment about how Leo said Hercules beat the entire crew, but Wrecker was still ready to go. I don't think he would have won, but it was a reference to show he was still was ready to fight. Oh Hercules most definetly lost, but Leo said he defeated them SOLO, when he didn't.

I do? FYI, it wasn't a normal wolverine anyways

Originally posted by olympian
I would have to look for it, since i dont know by heart. If you can acess to Hercules tread in SHC, Thorion post it there.

It was during Hercules beardless tenure before he lost immortality, i think. If i can get it, ill post it, but i only saw it, i dont own it.

Cool cool, look forward for it as I don't think I have read the story.

Originally posted by olympian
"Kill"? When? Afer he pounded on them, or when they had the confidence of watching him as a feeble former shadow?

When his confidence was down, and that's why Thor had to save him and help him get his confidence back willingly to nearly get killed himself to do it. Just adding context.

Originally posted by olympian

That blurred line only started when guys like Jurgens wer writting him as not depowered over "Thor" when pretty much at the same time guys like Busiek wer writting him wih the knowlege of loss of power over "Thunderbolts and "Avengers".

During the H4H days, however, his status was clear. It was fresh out of his Avengers last tenure where he lost power, of Hulk`s figth in the one shot and his 90`s mini.

Cool, fair enough

Originally posted by olympian
Wendigo. And that is exactly what i have been saying all along. It depends on the Wendigo in question. The Wendigo doesnt have always the same level of showings.

I surely wouldnt have Hercules take a majority over the one that fougth Savage and Sasquatch at the same time. But i dont find ludricious one bit for him to take a majority over the one that didnt lasted more than a page of worth against either Wolverine and Snowbird. And its not even the point of selling them short, its how the showing is actualy short in measure compared to the others

Yeah in my initial post on page 1, and several comments following I said depends on what host as there are some out there that are significantly weaker.

That Wendigo was actually pretty strong, as basically energy attacks or magic was useless against him. He could be taken out by physical force though.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/uxm140pg16.jpg

Originally posted by golem370
Just how long has Colossus ever lasted in a fight against Juggernaut when it was just the two of them? Longer than Thing and Captain Britain have. And Thunderstrike also I believe.

Originally posted by -K-M-
The entire fight is posted in the Wendigo section under the host "Larry"

Lulz and your not? It was, but I take it you didn't see the fight between Hulk and Captain Mar-vell now did you? As this was not normal Banner controlled Hulk



so you initially speculate wendigo was gonna drown hulk, i suggest hulk could have and HAS gotten out of many similar and FAR worse scenarios before and then you criticize me because I'M speculating?



not the normal banner-controlled hulk? whatever that means . . .

btw, i scanned the battle. maybe you could post the 'look of terror' for everyone to see? i think hulk's words were something like "gluh-gloh . . ."

yeah, he sounded REAL worried. his comment lent quite the air of imminent death . . .



anyone who looks at the scans can see herc was depicted as superior to the crew once he overcame his CIS induced confidence issue. by his lonesome he one-shotted piledriver and bulldozer, prolly gave them concussions, shattered the ball, and pounded on wrecker. ko'd wrecker? no. shown as superior? clearly. but you made them a friggin respect thread. clearly they're your boyz, and you'll believe as you will. more power to you.

Originally posted by leonidas


so you initially speculate wendigo was gonna drown hulk, i suggest hulk could have and HAS gotten out of many similar and FAR worse scenarios before and then you criticize me because I'M speculating?



not the normal banner-controlled hulk? whatever that means . . .

btw, i scanned the battle. maybe you could post the 'look of terror' for everyone to see? i think hulk's words were something like "gluh-gloh . . ."

yeah, he sounded REAL worried. his comment lent quite the air of imminent death . . .

Yeah and Hulk has been chocked uncouncious by a snake, so basically you will give the benefit of the doubt for everyone but Wendigo as that's what your doing in this thread. Interesting. Wendigo clearly had the upperhand, and with Captain Marvel having to save him really doesn't mean anything right? Oh my

Read the issue, if you did you would see he was VASTLY stronger and more durable or is that asking to much?

It's posted in the Wendigo respect thread as I mentioned earlier

What are you talking about?

Originally posted by leonidas

anyone who looks at the scans can see herc was depicted as superior to the crew once he overcame his CIS induced confidence issue. by his lonesome he one-shotted piledriver and bulldozer, prolly gave them concussions, shattered the ball, and pounded on wrecker. ko'd wrecker? no. shown as superior? clearly. but you made them a friggin respect thread. clearly they're your boyz, and you'll believe as you will. more power to you.

You said he flat out beat them and manipulate events and told incorrect things that happened. He one-shotted Piledriver and Bulldozer by lifting them up while they were holding him and not fighting back. ZOMG THAT'S AMAZING. Also to note Thunderball was fighting with one broken arm as well even at the start of the fight, so that's another thing you neglected to say. Also Wrecker clearly shrugged off those blows, just because he hit him showed he was superior even though the blows didn't even phase him? Uh huh. Yeah because I have actually read the issues first hand, I know what they have done so silly me for not taking things out of context.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Yeah and Hulk has been chocked uncouncious by a snake, so basically you will give the benefit of the doubt for everyone but Wendigo as that's what your doing in this thread. Interesting. Wendigo clearly had the upperhand, and with Captain Marvel having to save him really doesn't mean anything right? Oh my

choked by a snake.

that's nice . . . happens all the time, does it? so it has happened . . . once? twice in the forty+ year history of hulk? so based on those percentages, and the 'terror' ( ) clearly written all over his face, i'm gonna give the benefit of the doubt to wendigo?

are you aware of the hypocrisy in your post? you preach on about context and criticize about speculating then tell me hulk was "terrified" to create a misleading context then go on to make it seem as though there was no option BUT for CM to save him -- pure speculation. cuz it is SO rare for heroes to APPEAR to be beaten only to come back to win the fight or find a way out of the dilemma . . .

i answered your initial speculation with a speculative suggestion that is completely logical based on the fact that hulk has been choked out . . . how many times in his history again . . .? but then, this WAS the weaker, banner-controlled version, so who knows, maybe he did need saving.





so, piledriver and bulldozer weren't TRYING to hold him? you crack me up.

btw, i'm not saying it's impressive at ALL. piledriver and bulldozer are pretty much worthless, so beating them isn't much at all. herc would beat the 2 of them 100/10 in any situation. smashing the ball was a little more impresive, and thunderball would have been a pretty big threat without it . . . even with 2 arms.

lol at you clinging to whatever you can to avoid acknowledging herc was clearly depicted as superior to your precious crew. you're right -- he didn't ko wrecker. congrats (not that i said anything different at any time). but a ko doesn't always need to happen for the impression of superiority to be created. everyone is free to view the scans and come to their own conclusions.

anywho, as expected, this is going exactly nowhere so i'll bow out now. still though, always a pleasure your majesty.

You're right it's going in circles and getting heated, lets leave it at that then.

Bump

2008?? damn...