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everyone is at their peak performance.
Apoc
Siver Surfer

VS

Superman
Martian Manhunter

no bfr

Team 1 for an easy win. SS nullifies Superman with Kryptonite wavelength energy blasts while MM struggles against Apocalypse, then it's a 2v1 against MM and he goes down hard.

Surfer soloes

Apocalypse is the weak link. MM takes him down, then it's a 2 on 1 on Surfer.

Originally posted by Kutulu
Team 1 for an easy win. SS nullifies Superman with Kryptonite wavelength energy blasts while MM struggles against Apocalypse, then it's a 2v1 against MM and he goes down hard.

I believe we've done this dance before, and although theoritically it is within Surfers powerset to create such a radiation wavelength, in a fight with no prep or information about his opponents, how would he know that Superman is weakened by it? Furthermore, Kryptonite does not exist in the Marvel Universe so how would Surfer know what it is in order to duplicate that form of radiation?

Originally posted by nimbus006
I believe we've done this dance before, and although theoritically it is within Surfers powerset to create such a radiation wavelength, in a fight with no prep or information about his opponents, how would he know that Superman is weakened by it? Furthermore, Kryptonite does not exist in the Marvel Universe so how would Surfer know what it is in order to duplicate that form of radiation?

Cosmic awareness. Just like he knew what type of radiation gladiator was weak too. Also he knew Hulk had gamma and various other circumstances.
About the k-nite not excisting. He always has red sun radiation.
And its not like powerfull cosmic blasts will not hurt superman just cause those are not his weaknesses.

Originally posted by Inhuman
Cosmic awareness. Just like he knew what type of radiation gladiator was weak too. Also he knew Hulk had gamma and various other circumstances.

But Superman is not from this Universe, and neither is K-Nite. Surfer has cosmic awareness, but he's Omni-potent. I just think its a weak argument to say Surfer wins via Kryptonite radiation blasts.

Originally posted by Inhuman
About the k-nite not excisting. He always has red sun radiation.

Very true, however I was specifically speaking about K-Nite.

Originally posted by Inhuman And its not like powerfull cosmic blasts will not hurt superman just cause those are not his weaknesses.


I agree, never said powerful cosmic blasts wouldn't hurt him.

Originally posted by nimbus006
But Superman is not from this Universe, and neither is K-Nite. Surfer has cosmic awareness, but he's Omni-potent. I just think its a weak argument to say Surfer wins via Kryptonite radiation blasts.

The argument is that surfer can see every spectrum of energy. That's how he discovered Gladiator's flaw in the first place. If someone has a flaw to a certain type of energy, Surfer can see it. His sense of energy is one of the greatest of all the characters in Marvel Universe.


Surfer would be able to see the Kryptonite weakness the instant he looks at superman. It doesn't matter if kryptonite existed in the universe or not - the fact remains is that Superman is vulnerable to the wavelength of energy that Kryptonite emits, not the Kryptonite itself. Surfer can simply duplicate those waves and generate a cosmic level blast of those waves.

It would be like a chunk of kryptonite amplified millions of times.



Cosmic powered blasts in a kryptonite wavelength would annihilate him in one shot.

spite thread.

Team 1 all year long.

correct me if im wrong but doesnt surfer have a notoriously weak mind
and isnt one of the people on team 2 a mind rapist....

Originally posted by Gecko4lif
correct me if im wrong but doesnt surfer have a notoriously weak mind
and isnt one of the people on team 2 a mind rapist....

Surfer weak to mental attack? I don't know.

Originally posted by Gecko4lif
correct me if im wrong but doesnt surfer have a notoriously weak mind

No.

Surfer solos with ease.

Originally posted by janus77
Surfer solos with ease.
Against two top tier flying bricks?I think not surfer has enough trouble with thor let alone supes and mm.

SS won't solo, especially not easily. With Apocalypse help, then he wins.

MM and Superman wouldn't trouble Surfer in the least.
both are too slow and too vulnerable to his staggering range of powers.

Apoc really does nothing here. he's pretty much insignificant really.

Originally posted by janus77
MM and Superman wouldn't trouble Surfer in the least.
both are too slow and too vulnerable to his staggering range of powers.

Apoc really does nothing here. he's pretty much insignificant really.

Overrated.

Originally posted by janus77


Apoc is not insignificant.

You people are overrating SS....I fail to see how he'd take either of them with ease, and with Apocalypse as a partner, Surfer's going down. Hard.

Originally posted by Thorion
You people are overrating SS....I fail to see how he'd take either of them with ease, and with Apocalypse as a partner, Surfer's going down. Hard.

There are just too many ways that surfer could take both MM and Superman.

Surfer has Precognition, Telepathy, and Cosmic Awareness, certainly not weak minded in the least.

As a cosmic entity, He can both shield himself and feed himself from cosmic energies indefinitely....his endurance >>>> team 2.
Surfer can even heal and sustain Apocalypse if somehow he were injured.

Whats to keep the Surfer from screwing around with Team 2's DNA for kicks? Or simply draining solar energies from Superman on a cellular level (similar to what he could do to the Hulk)?

One of Silver Surfer's main abilities is being able to Transmutate matter!

Surfer could also manipulate ANY ambient cosmic energies to his will. Yellow sun, red sun, green sun, white drawf star...etc and bombard Supes with it all year.

If anything Superman actually has a less chance than MM does.

So basically it's just Silver Surfer vs Superman and Martian Manhunter? vin

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
So basically it's just Silver Surfer vs Superman and Martian Manhunter? vin
you'll get in trouble for talking like that!

Well the other three are well capable of speeds that would probably make Apocalypse seem like a statue... so I don't see how it's an invalid comment. 313

I don't really have an argument but I got told off for saying that...

I know... I was just preemptively covering my ass from a telling off for implying Apocalypse is useless to Surfer.

not that I'm agreeing with the above but, you do present an interesting and cogent argument worthy of further exploration, I feel.

Originally posted by horrorwolf
Surfer can even heal and sustain Apocalypse if somehow he were injured.

Apocalypse can heal by himself.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Well the other three are well capable of speeds that would probably make Apocalypse seem like a statue... so I don't see how it's an invalid comment. 313

Apocalypse has shown to counteract super speed.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I know... I was just preemptively covering my ass from a telling off for implying Apocalypse is useless to Surfer.

Useless in what way?


Surfer is not going to solo this.

Counteract FTL though, when?

N.B. I never said Surfer would solo this though.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Counteract FTL though, when?

FTL?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Counteract FTL though, when?

N.B. I never said Surfer would solo this though.

Do Superman and MM move at FTL speed when they fight though?

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
FTL?

faster than light.

Superman and Silver Surfer are both capable of FTL at least. MM, while I'm not so sure what he tops out at but I know he's no slouch in the speed department. Superman has superspeed fighting feats.

I can't recall anything that would lead me to believe that Apocalypse can match or counter either MM or Superman's speed capabilities though, so Surfer's on his own when it comes to that.

Team 2

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Superman and Silver Surfer are both capable of FTL at least. MM, while I'm not so sure what he tops out at but I know he's no slouch in the speed department. Superman has superspeed fighting feats.

I can't recall anything that would lead me to believe that Apocalypse can match or counter either MM or Superman's speed capabilities though, so Surfer's on his own when it comes to that.

Yeah I know that Superman can fly at FTL speed but im not sure if this is the case when hes fighting. He can speedblitz but im not sure if hes going FTL when fighting.

Yes I know your going to say Superman is faster than Quicksilver but Apoc did pawn him pretty easily and I think (cant find the scan) he was weakened that does indicate that he could deal with soemthing alot faster

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah I know that Superman can fly at FTL speed but im not sure if this is the case when hes fighting. He can speedblitz but im not sure if hes going FTL when fighting.

Yes I know your going to say Superman is faster than Quicksilver but Apoc did pawn him pretty easily and I think (cant find the scan) he was weakened that does indicate that he could deal with soemthing alot faster It's kind of hard to depict FTL fighting.

You're right, I am going to say Superman is faster, about at least 35,000-175,000 times faster than Quicksilver, depending on whether the Quicksilver depicted was before or after his Isotope E exposure. Which makes Quicksilver a pretty useless example... ermm

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
It's kind of hard to depict FTL fighting.

You're right, I am going to say Superman is faster, about at least 35,000-175,000 times faster than Quicksilver, depending on whether the Quicksilver depicted was before or after his Isotope E exposure. Which makes Quicksilver a pretty useless example... ermm

How do you know Superman is fighting at FTL speed?

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/4530/08222005115613am7bx.jpg

Thats fast, but the fact is you know that he can travel at FTL speed but im asking for proof that he fights FTL.

I didn't say anything about him fighting at FTL, FTL fighting would be notoriously hard to depict on panel anyway.

The mere fact that Superman can travel at FTL, and MM can scour the Earth in seconds and keep up with the Flash in a fight, renders Apocalypse useless to Surfer. He wouldn't even see what was happening or notice if the the two managed to get Surfer hundreds of thousands of kilometers away.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I didn't say anything about him fighting at FTL, FTL fighting would be notoriously hard to depict on panel anyway.

The mere fact that Superman can travel at FTL, and MM can scour the Earth in seconds and keep up with the Flash in a fight, renders Apocalypse useless to Surfer. He wouldn't even see what was happening or notice if the the two managed to get Surfer hundreds of thousands of kilometers away.

Ok i'll leave it at that.....I was stretching anyway.

Originally posted by janus77
MM and Superman wouldn't trouble Surfer in the least.
both are too slow and too vulnerable to his staggering range of powers.

Apoc really does nothing here. he's pretty much insignificant really. Whoa!! Dont diss Apoc my friend!! A non-jobbing Apoc would contribute to this battle.

Either of team two can take down Apocalypse.

But the Surfer can take down either of team two.

All that matters is which happens first.

Originally posted by Hitman911
Whoa!! Dont diss Apoc my friend!! A non-jobbing Apoc would contribute to this battle.
I'm not dissing Apocalypse, I'd say the same about Hulk if he were paired with SS in this match instead of Apocalypse.

this is going to be a high speed fight and I don't think Apocalypse is going to really come in to it.

Surfer can down Superman pretty damned quickly with some kryptonite placed into Superman's chest, by way of phasing through into supes at many multiples of C.

MM will be killed with the first blast of cosmic energy or black-hole bfr'd... and it's over.

I don't see how Apocalypse would contribute, seeing as Superman wouldn't even be hurt by Apoc's attacks, and is way too fast for Apocalypse to try and mess with the solar energies. MM can go intangible and would be immune to all of Apoc's attacks (whereas Surfer would probably be able to reverse MM's intangibility by matter manipulation at the molecular/atomic level).

MM has a pretty good regenerative factor considering he's reconstituted himself from goo and carried on a conversation after being cut into pieces; and apparently phases into another dimension when he becomes intangible.

IMO it would be faster and easier for either MM or Superman to throw Apocalypse into the sun, than for Surfer to take down either Superman or Martian Manhunter, which makes the thread two against one in favor of the DC characters.

I never understood how folks always have such fawning respect for Martian Manhunter and then go ahead and hate on Apocalypse when they have basically the same power sets.

Originally posted by janus77
I don't see how Apocalypse would contribute, seeing as Superman wouldn't even be hurt by Apoc's attacks

Rubbish.


Apoc stabs Supes... 131

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/apocmorph4.png

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
IMO it would be faster and easier for either MM or Superman to throw Apocalypse into the sun

Yeah, because it's not like Apocalypse can teleport or something....

Like how the Ikaris can teleport? Ironic, n'est-ce pas?

Martian Manhunter is stronger, has actual superspeed, regularly becomes intangible/invisible, and actually has credible telepathy - so I really don't see the whole same powersets thing. 313

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Like how the Ikaris can teleport? Ironic, n'est-ce pas?

Eternals doesn't like to teleport, though...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Martian Manhunter is stronger

I'd say, no, since Apoc could just enhance his strength to match the levels of MM.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
much faster, regularly becomes intangible/invisible, and actually has credible telepathy - so I really don't see the whole same powersets thing. 313

Shape-shifting? ermmnone

Sersi teleports around all the time.
Teleportation
http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=198512eternalsv1003p03kd0.jpg
http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=198512eternalsv1003p04hr2.jpg
http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=198512eternalsv1003p05op8.jpg
http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=198604eternalsv1007p16by8.jpg
http://img119.imageshack.us/my.php?image=198607eternalsv1010p05lc4.jpg
http://img119.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heroesforhire07p04eo1.jpg
http://img119.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heroesforhire07p05oc4.jpg
Yeah it's Sersi not Ikaris, but frankly if he can't teleport at will he has no business calling himself the Prime Eternal, or even Eternal.

Meh I've never seen Apocalypse do anything close to the strength feats MM has performed. Hypotheticals based on hyperbole are nice though. ermmhappy

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Sersi teleports around all the time.
Teleportation
http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=198512eternalsv1003p03kd0.jpg
http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=198512eternalsv1003p04hr2.jpg
http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=198512eternalsv1003p05op8.jpg
http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=198604eternalsv1007p16by8.jpg
http://img119.imageshack.us/my.php?image=198607eternalsv1010p05lc4.jpg
http://img119.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heroesforhire07p04eo1.jpg
http://img119.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heroesforhire07p05oc4.jpg
Yeah it's Sersi not Ikaris, but frankly if he can't teleport at will he has no business calling himself the Prime Eternal, or even Eternal.

From what I've heard, Eternals prefers not to teleport, because they find the self-teleportation process physically unpleasant. They are left momentarily fatigued or dazed.

So, teleportating in a battle may not be the wisest choice for an Eternal.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Meh I've never seen Apocalypse do anything close to the strength feats MM has performed.

What are MM's greatest strength feats?


Apocalypse has shown capable of physically restraining the Heroes Reborn Hulk, who was increasingly stronger because he was tapping into the energies of the HR pocket reality and other dimensions.

Apocalypse's superhuman strength is kinda part of his shape-shifting ability, as shown here: 1 2. In a physical fight, Apocalypse would simply be difficult to keep down. As he changes his mass (such as increasing the size of his fist or himself), his strength fluctuates to great levels.

why do I always read "p-bes" when I see "supes" .


umm, wasn't that Banner-Hulk that Apoc made into a Horseman?
it's the other Hulk, the one without Banner that was getting consistently stronger as a result of the nexus energies.

the merged Hulk, Prof. Hulk I guess, near the end of the arc who was emitting 2 universes worth of energies in order to keep open a dimensional portal between the pocket universe and the 616, is the only time the Banner persona got access to those powers.


I'm not sure, as I haven't read that particular story yet, but from the scans the timing seems to be prior to the merger and thus not Hulk at those levels but instead Banner-Hulk. and the Banner persona has historically (upto just a few issues prior to Planet Hulk) been known for cramping The Hulk's style...

Originally posted by janus77
why do I always read "p-bes" when I see "supes" .


umm, wasn't that Banner-Hulk that Apoc made into a Horseman?
it's the other Hulk, the one without Banner that was getting consistently stronger as a result of the nexus energies.

the merged Hulk, Prof. Hulk I guess, near the end of the arc who was emitting 2 universes worth of energies in order to keep open a dimensional portal between the pocket universe and the 616, is the only time the Banner persona got access to those powers.


I'm not sure, as I haven't read that particular story yet, but from the scans the timing seems to be prior to the merger and thus not Hulk at those levels but instead Banner-Hulk. and the Banner persona has historically (upto just a few issues prior to Planet Hulk) been known for cramping The Hulk's style...

http://www.hulknews.com/hulkdatabase/bannerlesshulk2.php

That whole Hulk incident is PIS imo.
Plus he was choking the hulk as well as "restraining" him.
Right now the Hulk has no need to breath so i can't see Apoc restraining him no longer than a minute or so.
Besides Current Hulk would rip Apoc coils out and shove it up his ass.

Originally posted by Priest
That whole Hulk incident is PIS imo.
Plus he was choking the hulk as well as "restraining" him.
Right now the Hulk has no need to breath so i can't see Apoc restraining him no longer than a minute or so.
Besides Current Hulk would rip Apoc coils out and shove it up his ass.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/HAL10WEEN/apichoke3.png

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
From what I've heard, Eternals prefers not to teleport, because they find the self-teleportation process physically unpleasant. They are left momentarily fatigued or dazed.

So, teleportating in a battle may not be the wisest choice for an Eternal. From what I've seen, Eternals can teleport at the snap of a finger without ill effects. They can also phase, regenerate and have in the past reconstituted from atomization. But apparently stabbing does them in.
Originally posted by Bad Ash231
What are MM's greatest strength feats?

Apocalypse has shown capable of physically restraining the Heroes Reborn Hulk, who was increasingly stronger because he was tapping into the energies of the HR pocket reality and other dimensions.

Apocalypse's superhuman strength is kinda part of his shape-shifting ability, as shown here: 1 2. In a physical fight, Apocalypse would simply be difficult to keep down. As he changes his mass (such as increasing the size of his fist or himself), his strength fluctuates to great levels. MM has shown capable of physically restraining Orion, Wonder Woman and Big Barda simultaneously.

Helping brace Asmodel's San Fransisco sized chariot while it burned him (after having been through other tribulations) would be another that I can recall. As well as stalemating or beating Superman-esque characters such as Captain Marvel and Triumph.

Lulz

Originally posted by Bad Ash231




What are MM's greatest strength feats?




I can think of this one:

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/6583/mmsurvivessbprayszj6.jpg

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I can think of this one:

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/6583/mmsurvivessbprayszj6.jpg
Black Adam, and Flash can do that.
I've noticed that Prime, when he gets punched he usually gets knocked back, I'm not sure if it hurts him or not, but he never really gets un phased but a top tier punch imo.

Strength doesn't really matter that much in this fight

Originally posted by Inhuman
Strength doesn't really matter that much in this fight
Is this mm after he overcame his fear of fire? if not apoc has flamethrowers, lol.

We also have to take intellect, knowledge, and planning ability into account.