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Who wins?

Good fight. Ehh,,,Colossus 8/10 maybe.

Maybe not that many.

Colossus is definitely more durable, Doc might be more stronger.

Colossus is both tremendously stronger and tremendously more durable than Samson. Along with his other extreme advantages--> Colossus FTW.

I thought Doc was around Hulk's base strength?

If he is, he sure doesn't show it, especially in the last couple of years. Regardless, I may have been a bit harsh when I said "tremendously", but I do believe Colossus is stronger than Samson, or AT THE VERY LEAST, the same strength.

Colossus is definitely more durable, however. And a much better fighter.

Doc is only 80 tons???? ummm...

Colossus wins via stamina and durability, and i want to say he is stronger as well...but not sure

Doc Samson is Class 75(handbook ranking) to Colossus' Class 100(handbook ranking). Doc is really outgunned by Colossus in all categories except agility.

Colossus 8/10.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Doc Samson is Class 75(handbook ranking) to Colossus' Class 100(handbook ranking). Doc is really outgunned by Colossus in all categories except agility.

Colossus 8/10.

Yeah I know....I thought he was stronger before I made this.

Oh come on! how many times have we all been over this? Handbooks are often wrong with their stats.

Sampson has done many things over class 70

Case in point:

http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spidey10io.jpg
http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spidey25ik.jpg
http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spidey35xe.jpg

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Oh come on! how many times have we all been over this? Handbooks are often wrong with their stats.

Sampson has done many things over class 70

Case in point:

http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spidey10io.jpg
http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spidey25ik.jpg
http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spidey35xe.jpg Getting slapped around by Cage and one-shotted by WWHulk don't help that though. Plus he got a beating from She-Hulk recently also.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Getting slapped around by Cage and one-shotted by WWHulk don't help that though. Plus he got a beating from She-Hulk recently also.

His recent showings have been bad, but your using handbooks as a clear cut way of how the fight occurs. Handbooks are often wrong

Hell Cage just beat Wrecker, and we know for a fact Wrecker is vastly above him

I use handbooks, that's what I do. As far as I know there is no rule against it.

Anyways Doc didn't even qualify to fight Champion when he came to Earth. He was kayoed by the training bot!!!!

And then there's his fight with Class 80 Rhino. Doc had to play dead because he was afraid Rhino was gonna finish him off.

Don't you remember the other Samson vs. Colossus thread? I was the one supporting Colossus for the win, even now I still think he wins. However, I have a problem with using handbooks as concrete indications of strength levels

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Don't you remember the other Samson vs. Colossus thread? I was the one supporting Colossus for the win, even now I still think he wins. However, I have a problem with using handbooks as concrete indications of strength levels Yea, I remember that thread.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=400954&from=thread&pagenumber=3#post9843410

The search function isn't that hard to use. Though I did spell Samson wrong.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Yea, I remember that thread.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=400954&from=thread&pagenumber=3#post9843410

The search function isn't that hard to use. Though I did spell Samson wrong.

*Snickers* and you thought he could only press 25 tons.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
*Snickers* and you thought he could only press 25 tons. Well that is what the comic scan said.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Well that is what the comic scan said.

Sure..sure

Originally posted by King_Mungi
His recent showings have been bad Agreed,
but back in the day he was a force to be reckoned with...


vs. Hulk:

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1369/d5as2.th.jpg http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/2111/d6jo5.th.jpg http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/1531/d7xz1.th.jpg http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/7013/d8ys2.th.jpg http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/683/d9aw2.th.jpg


======


Doc stalemated the raging Hulk for almost "Six Full Hours":

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/8947/d10gb1.th.jpg http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/1006/d11qz4.th.jpg

.

Originally posted by Galan007
Agreed,
but back in the day he was a force to be reckoned with...


Damn right he was, seems now he is the punching bag for more popular people now.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Sure..sure Did you see the scan?

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/sentinel13iu.jpg

...Remember we talked about this in the other thread, as that was Doc with short hair.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
...Remember we talked about this in the other thread, as that was Doc with short hair. Well you didn't answer the question and I didn't know if you saw the scan or not.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Well you didn't answer the question and I didn't know if you saw the scan or not.

I saw the scan, and I was more joking hence the ""

Originally posted by King_Mungi
His recent showings have been bad, but your using handbooks as a clear cut way of how the fight occurs. Handbooks are often wrong

Hell Cage just beat Wrecker, and we know for a fact Wrecker is vastly above him

It's popularity that counts these days, especially if there's a movie in the works.

Samson once knocked out the Hulk with one punch. He's supposed be as strong as base level Savage Hulk (around 70 - 90 tons).

The battle between Samson & Rhino sounds interesting. I like to see Rhino when he's not portrayed as a chump. I mean class 80 strength has got to mean something!! He even got punched out by Cap one time.

I'd say Colossus wins 8/10.

The first time Samson fought the Rhino though, he easily destroyed him.

Samson has the means to take a few of these battles and its not out of the realm of possiblility for him to take the majority.

Originally posted by tkitna
The first time Samson fought the Rhino though, he easily destroyed him.

Samson has the means to take a few of these battles and its not out of the realm of possiblility for him to take the majority. When did Samson easily defeat Rhino?

Originally posted by snoopdogg
When did Samson easily defeat Rhino?

http://img386.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rhino19we.jpg
http://img386.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rhino22dt.jpg
http://img281.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rhino31qe.jpg

Originally posted by tkitna
http://img386.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rhino19we.jpg
http://img386.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rhino22dt.jpg
http://img281.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rhino31qe.jpg Do you realize that Doc cheap shotted him?

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Do you realize that Doc cheap shotted him?

Eh, he hit him in the back I guess. He still took out the mighty Rhino in two panels.

I do have their next fight though and will have to admit that Rhino had Samson on the ropes and would have beaten him if the Doc didnt play opossum. Oh well.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Oh come on! how many times have we all been over this? Handbooks are often wrong with their stats.

Sampson has done many things over class 70

Case in point:

http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spidey10io.jpg
http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spidey25ik.jpg
http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spidey35xe.jpg

We must understand that all comic characters at times perform greater than what they are listed at. This is due to the stress factor and the fact that many writers don't know how much strength a certain feat requires. For example, Spider-man has not only class 50 feats but a couple of rare class 100 ones too. But his strength is regarded, as of now, 25tons. So we must take these handbook stats as either the character's normal calm strength or as a tier guide to show who is stronger. This is writers way of giving their opinion on who is stronger. So by Doc being listed at 75tons doesn't mean he can't lift over 75tons, it just mean that a class 100 is stronger. So Colossus is definitely stronger (by writer's opinion).

Now, determining the stronger of two characters of the same tier (such as class 100) can only be done by feats. This is because it is impossible to determine the stronger otherwise. Personally, I look at the handbooks stats as a guide to a character's normal (non-stressed) strength. And I just take any rare feats they perform over that as the writers not noing the strength required for that feat or that the character was under a lot of stress. Know that any combination of the two can lead to PIS if the feat is rare enough.

Sasquatch is listed at class 70, now does he look stressed here to achieve this feat? As stated in the comic he can have uncalcuable strength due to Tanaraq, but he is still listed as class 70

1. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/Sasplane1.jpg
2. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/UncannyX-Men120b.jpg

I literally can find dozens of errors in the stats from fighting skills, speed, strength, etc. with feats of people really not even trying doing said feats :/

Another example from the recent Wild Child entry they gave him 3/7 (some training) in fighting skill yet as stated he was trained by the best and refered to be as one of the best martial artist on the planet. He was trained by Wolverine, Department H, Secret Empire, Sabretooth, Alpha Flight, X-Factor, Puck and even Nick Fury yet they say he has "some" training *snickers*

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Sasquatch is listed at class 70, now does he look stressed here to achieve this feat? As stated in the comic he can have uncalcuable strength due to Tanaraq, but he is still listed as class 70

1. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/Sasplane1.jpg
2. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/UncannyX-Men120b.jpg

I literally can find dozens of errors in the stats from fighting skills, speed, strength, etc. with feats of people really not even trying doing said feats :/

Another example from the recent Wild Child entry they gave him 3/7 (some training) in fighting skill yet as stated he was trained by the best and refered to be as one of the best martial artist on the planet. He was trained by Wolverine, Department H, Secret Empire, Sabretooth, Alpha Flight, X-Factor, Puck and even Nick Fury yet they say he has "some" training *snickers*
My point exactly.

Geez, folks, stop it with the handbook stats. In fact, wipe your ass with your official handbook. Now.

Originally posted by Batroc
It's popularity that counts these days, especially if there's a movie in the works.

Samson once knocked out the Hulk with one punch. He's supposed be as strong as base level Savage Hulk (around 70 - 90 tons).

The battle between Samson & Rhino sounds interesting. I like to see Rhino when he's not portrayed as a chump. I mean class 80 strength has got to mean something!! He even got punched out by Cap one time.

I'd say Colossus wins 8/10.
Damnit! Base Savage Hulk isn't around 70-90!

I know he's inconsistent (messing around with Thing,) but he's closed earthquake fissures and hauled millions of tons while calm, and with ease.

Rhino has at no point in time been over CL50...

Back to the thread Colossus > Doc 10/10

Originally posted by Tony Stark
Rhino has at no point in time been over CL50...

Back to the thread Colossus > Doc 10/10



I think he has a better shot at victory than that.

Doc with long hair could be a bit stronger than Colossus. Remember, he's only as strong as his hair is long.

Hah! I made a limerick!

Originally posted by h1a8
We must understand that all comic characters at times perform greater than what they are listed at. This is due to the stress factor and the fact that many writers don't know how much strength a certain feat requires. For example, Spider-man has not only class 50 feats but a couple of rare class 100 ones too. But his strength is regarded, as of now, 25tons. So we must take these handbook stats as either the character's normal calm strength or as a tier guide to show who is stronger. This is writers way of giving their opinion on who is stronger. So by Doc being listed at 75tons doesn't mean he can't lift over 75tons, it just mean that a class 100 is stronger. So Colossus is definitely stronger (by writer's opinion).

Now, determining the stronger of two characters of the same tier (such as class 100) can only be done by feats. This is because it is impossible to determine the stronger otherwise. Personally, I look at the handbooks stats as a guide to a character's normal (non-stressed) strength. And I just take any rare feats they perform over that as the writers not noing the strength required for that feat or that the character was under a lot of stress. Know that any combination of the two can lead to PIS if the feat is rare enough. Nice post.

Bottom line is Class 75 is not a 75 tons max. It's just a where Marvel puts a character in the pecking order, or totem pole if you will.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Nice post.

Bottom line is Class 75 is not a 75 tons max. It's just a where Marvel puts a character in the pecking order, or totem pole if you will.

Yeah, it's more like a ranking system. I'm sure the first editions of the handbook had Thor and Wonderman listed as 95 tons and Hercules at 100 tons. It's just a way of saying Thor and Wonderman are roughly equal, and Hercules is a bit more. This was before 'Class 100'. Obviously these characters have lifted much more at times. It's probably futile to try and pin down how strong they really are. If a story requires a heroic effort like lifting the Midgard Serpent, weighing millions of tons, then it can happen. The next issue the character may be fighting the mafia, or Mr.Hyde, and the hero will still be seen to struggle, otherwise the story has no tension.

That still doesn't make sense as even Thing, Box (lift press 80 tons), etc. all said Sasquatch is stronger yet he is at a lower class then them in the handbooks. It's a proven fact the handbooks are not reliable anyway you look at the stats

Well lets pretend that Samson and Colossus are equal in strength, and I feel that'd be giving Samson credit, whos the better fighter? Colossus trains extensively in the danger room while Samson sits in a sofa listening to people complain about their childhood. Also Samson's hair is his weakness, and Colossus Im sure is aware of that and could exploit it if he had too.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
That still doesn't make sense as even Thing, Box (lift press 80 tons), etc. all said Sasquatch is stronger yet he is at a lower class then them in the handbooks. It's a proven fact the handbooks are not reliable anyway you look at the stats That can be reversed though too. Because Sasquatch later stated that he's nowhere near as strong as Thing. Comics are more inconsistent than handbooks.

Originally posted by redhotrash
Well lets pretend that Samson and Colossus are equal in strength, and I feel that'd be giving Samson credit, whos the better fighter? Colossus trains extensively in the danger room while Samson sits in a sofa listening to people complain about their childhood. Also Samson's hair is his weakness, and Colossus Im sure is aware of that and could exploit it if he had too.

He lost that weakness ages ago.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Sasquatch is listed at class 70, now does he look stressed here to achieve this feat? As stated in the comic he can have uncalcuable strength due to Tanaraq, but he is still listed as class 70

1. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/Sasplane1.jpg
2. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/UncannyX-Men120b.jpg

Where did you find that Sasquatch was listed as class 70?
I once saw a listing sometime in the 90's for him as super human class 100. Wasn't he possessed by Tanaraq in that scan? Because he is several times stronger when that happens (which proves my point that strength also depends on the mental, like stress). Plus, you know that in the scan he lifted a 25 ton DC-10 jet and threw it 1000 ft right? So the feat wasn't quite class 100 (very close though). And you forget that I gave two reasons (and not one). The other reason is that writer's sometimes don't know how much strength a feat requires. Lastly, they had Thing being superior to Sasquatch in strength on panel. So to prevent comic inconsistency we use the stress factor and the PIS factor.
The latter being applied when the feat is way out of the range of the character and not happening frequent enough.

I would like to see these. Can you show me?


This is called hyperbole, which can be denied. But consistent action based feats cannot be denied, for action speaks louder than words.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Yet Super Skrull who had augmented Thing's strength admited he isn't as strong as Sas, even Ranark commented Sas was stronger then Thing. So there's more people who say Sas > Thing then not. Plus Sas has incalcuable strength so kind of hard to be stronger then him eh?



Well the Super-Skrull was only class 15 back then so it's not a big deal. Iike I said comics are way more inconsistent than handbooks. Once you have Sasquatch slugging it out with Hulk then the next he's almost killed by Wild Child. Or one time he gets handled by Wrecker and the next time he's throwing airplanes. Or one time Sasquatch gets knocked around with a shovel and the next he's getting blasted by a tank. Get what I'm saying eh?

Another good example is Colossus' fight with Pete Wisdom. Colossus was enraged out of his mind and all Wisdom got was a couple broken ribs and a concussion. And Pete Wisdom has normal human durability!!

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Well the Super-Skrull was only class 15 back then so it's not a big deal. Iike I said comics are way more inconsistent than handbooks. Once you have Sasquatch slugging it out with Hulk then the next he's almost killed by Wild Child. Or one time he gets handled by Wrecker and the next time he's throwing airplanes. Or one time Sasquatch gets knocked around with a shovel and the next he's getting blasted by a tank. Get what I'm saying eh?

Errrr? John Bryne at his board mentioned he was class 100.

Well all characters have bad showings, there's no exception. That's why we have rules on this board for this kinda thing. Hulk has been taken out from a snake, one-shooted by Wrecker, and knocked out from an electric net. If some of these events are so drastically out of their norm they generally are not taken to serious.

Wrecker owned him? If your talking about Omega Flight the Crew apparently had a boost from Tanaraq then so they could travel to the Realm of the Beasts.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Another good example is Colossus' fight with Pete Wisdom. Colossus was enraged out of his mind and all Wisdom got was a couple broken ribs and a concussion. And Pete Wisdom has normal human durability!!

Wonders of comics physics as any class 100 punch against anyone or anything would send it flying. Yet how many times have we seen the likes of Hulk fully enraged not even send Wolverine flying? The sheer force and power should send anyone sky rocketing

Originally posted by King_Mungi


Wrecker owned him? If your talking about Omega Flight the Crew apparently had a boost from Tanaraq then so they could travel to the Realm of the Beasts.


I didn't say owned him I said handled him. And the fight I was talking about was in AF #119. That's a good example of Sasquatches limitless strength failing in the clutch.

Here's another favorite inconsistency of mine. Colossus gets kayoed from a huge boulder falling on his head but manages to stay concious going through re-entry into the Breakwords atmosphere and is still concious after the impact from the landing!

Originally posted by snoopdogg
I didn't say owned him I said handled him. And the fight I was talking about was in AF #119. That's a good example of Sasquatches limitless strength failing in the clutch.

Here's another favorite inconsistency of mine. Colossus gets kayoed from a huge boulder falling on his head but manages to stay concious going through re-entry into the Earths atmosphere!

Errr? Wrecker basically hit him once and that was it, and in the same issue mentioned Walter was losing control and not seen for the rest of the issue.

Just a bad showing, Sasquatch has taken armor peircing machine gun fire yet in the Sabretooth mini he was seriously wounded by rifle bullets and wooden spikes. Their just bad showings, which several other feats completly contradict the one feat.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Yet Super Skrull who had augmented Thing's strength admited he isn't as strong as Sas, even Ranark commented Sas was stronger then Thing. So there's more people who say Sas > Thing then not. Plus Sas has incalcuable strength so kind of hard to be stronger then him eh?



Every handbook he has been in has been class 70 and don't mention Tanaraq can give him power-boost either.

No, the only handbook in the 1990's listed him as Class 90, which is the ability to press/lift 75-90 tons. Doesn't mean you can press 90 tons. Never has he been class 100.



No, that was Walter as normal as day. He didn't even know anything about Tanaraq then. He wasn't stressed at all.



Reread the scans it's 250 tons not 25, the engine alone on a DC-10 is 25 tons




Yes DC-10 jets weigh about 250 tons. But the scan is actually a typo. So that plane can't be a DC-10 plane. Otherwise, they fu*ked up the artwork bad. The size of the plane in the scan relative to Sasquatch's size shows that the plane is about 25 tons. A Boeing 747 can weigh 2 hundred and something tons, yet the 747 dwarfs the plane that Sasquatch lifted.

Look at the sizes of these planes and then scroll down to get their weighs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Canada_Dash_8


With that said, yes Sasquatch can lift over a 100 tons. I was never arguing that he can't. I was just showing you that the first scan you showed isn't a class 100 feat if the plane is 25tons.

And sorry, I know nothing of the characters you are mentioning (master of the world?, wild child?).
And yes handbooks do make mistakes. Comics make more though. But not everything is a mistake. So I trust comics and handbooks about equally well (maybe handbooks just slightly more though).

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes DC-10 jets weigh about 250 tons. But the scan is actually a typo. So that plane can't be a DC-10 plane. Otherwise, they fu*ked up the artwork bad. The size of the plane in the scan relative to Sasquatch's size shows that the plane is about 25 tons. A Boeing 747 can weigh 2 hundred and something tons, yet the 747 dwarfs the plane that Sasquatch lifted.

Look at the sizes of these planes and then scroll down to get their weighs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Canada_Dash_8

It's a DC-10 even John Bryne made mention it was one on his board during a Q & A. He saw one at the airport waiting for his plane to take off. If you want to see bad size difference look at the aircraft carrier Kilowog dropped on a Sinestro Corps member recently. It's suppose to be an air-craft carrier, but it isn't drawn to correct dimensions.

Originally posted by h1a8

With that said, yes Sasquatch can lift over a 100 tons. I was never arguing that he can't. I was just showing you that the first scan you showed isn't a class 100 feat if the plane is 25tons.

It's a DC-10, but goes with my point he is a class 100 brute and does class 100 feats without pushing himself yet he is classified as just class 70. Nuh uh.

Originally posted by h1a8

And sorry, I know nothing of the characters you are mentioning (master of the world?, wild child?).
And yes handbooks do make mistakes. Comics make more though. But not everything is a mistake. So I trust comics and handbooks about equally well (maybe handbooks just slightly more though).

Check the respect threads then.

They make a LOT of mistakes. Errr? even the bios in the handbooks have errors. Without the comics there would be no handbooks, so why would you take the handbooks over the actual comic?

Originally posted by Tony Stark
Rhino has at no point in time been over CL50...

Back to the thread Colossus > Doc 10/10




Uh...Rhino's class 80 (if that's what it's called). He can lift up to 80 tons. It's been stated on-panel, even.

Originally posted by Tony Stark
Here Sasquatch pulls and lifts a destroyer nany ship (British destroyers (of recent times) have an average displacement of around 5,000 tonnes or higher) and then pushes it out again. Also no this isn't Tanaraq

1. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/Hulk_Annual_1979_008_11.jpg


Sassy is most definitely mid CL100 at the very least. But the picture of the destroyer clearly shows that he was deadlifting just the front tip of the ship up out of the water so that Vindicator can repair it, so it's only a fraction of the ships total weight, never mind that most of the ships weight that is being displaced by the water.

Like when Ben held up the corner of that oil rig and stopped it from collapsing, he too was only holding and pressing a fraction of the rig and not the full 6,000-7,000 tons of it's total weight.

Although water wasn't displacing any of the weight of the oil rig for Ben, since none of the stanchions are floating and are free standing. Ben's feat was with dead weight.



Only problem I have with your interpretation is that the narration says, on-panel, that he "lifted her up out of the water unaided". It doesn't say that he lifted only the bow of the ship. Rather, it says that he lifted the ship "up out of the water". That leads me to believe that he lifted the entire ship out of the water.

But hey, that's just me.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Only problem I have with your interpretation is that the narration says, on-panel, that he "lifted her up out of the water unaided". It doesn't say that he lifted only the bow of the ship. Rather, it says that he lifted the ship "up out of the water". That leads me to believe that he lifted the entire ship out of the water.

But hey, that's just me.


Well if you look closely at the pictures of him lift the bow at the bottom of the page.

You'll see picture #1 shows the water running off of the bottom of the ship and back into the ocean.

Picture #2 is more from a birds-eye view and shows Vindi repairing the ship and you can still see the water running off the bottom of the ship and into the ocean, and you can also see it stop running off the bottom of the ship and into the ocean, and you can see that the water from then on through the rest of the ship isn't like that and is shown to be normal, and is not shown to be running off the ship.

Originally posted by Tony Stark
Well if you look closely at the pictures of him lift the bow at the bottom of the page.

You'll see picture #1 shows the water running off of the bottom of the ship and back into the ocean.

Picture #2 is more from a birds-eye view and shows Vindi repairing the ship and you can still see the water running off the bottom of the ship and into the ocean, and you can also see it stop running off the bottom of the ship and into the ocean, and you can see that the water from then on through the rest of the ship isn't like that and is shown to be normal, and is not shown to be running off the ship.

...What?

Originally posted by Metalmanx
...What?





Did you look at the picture? It shows it pretty clearly.

Yea, Sasquatch didn't have the ships full weight and neither did Thing with the oil rig. Imo the oil rig feat is more impressive. But both are very cool.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Thingoilrig.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Thingoilrig2.jpg

Originally posted by King_Mungi
It's a DC-10 even John Bryne made mention it was one on his board during a Q & A. He saw one at the airport waiting for his plane to take off. If you want to see bad size difference look at the aircraft carrier Kilowog dropped on a Sinestro Corps member recently. It's suppose to be an air-craft carrier, but it isn't drawn to correct dimensions.



It's a DC-10, but goes with my point he is a class 100 brute and does class 100 feats without pushing himself yet he is classified as just class 70. Nuh uh.


They make a LOT of mistakes. Errr? even the bios in the handbooks have errors. Without the comics there would be no handbooks, so why would you take the handbooks over the actual comic?

Let's just say that it was a miniture DC-10 plane that weighed 25tons.
I will never believe it to be much more than that. So we can just agree to disagree here. Now, I do believe that he can lift more than 70tons though and thus making the stat you saw reduced to a tier guide. I never saw the stat myself (would you mind showing me). The only stat that I saw was that of being superhuman class 100.

Now Thing was able to lift up to 5 tons in his begining career. But he can lift somewhat more than 100 tons now. Where did this extra strength come from? Characters, over time, are naturally evolving without explanation in the comics.

The comics are wrong a lot more than handbooks. Onslaught pulled a nonexistent gem from Juggs chest ( ?). So why believe the comics more. Someone can't be both stronger and weaker than Thing at the same time. Thus we must have a balance. The handbook stats along with the majority of consistent showings gives us this balance.

Now, writers opinions weigh more than any comic. And they put their opinions in the handbooks. So that is why I believe them more.
Now there would still be handbook stats for characters without the comic.
For example, a character can be said to be class 100 but never (as of yet) shown it in comics. For writers form their opinion well before they write a comic about it. So, I don't quite agree with you that without the comic there is no handbook. Also, a lot of the handbook (not all) is made by consulting the writers who write for that certain character.

Some writers take over a character from another writer without fully understanding the character. That is why you see errors in the comic as well. Lastly, It is faulty to find an error in something and then say that the whole thing not trustworthy. People do this to handbooks. But since the comics have errors too then, in the same vein, there're not trustworthy either.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
and I routinely talk to him about adjusting the handbooks which are going to be made in the new hardcover handbook] Is there a new handbook format coming out?

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Is there a new handbook format coming out?

Kinda, the hardcovers are going to be updated and corrected entries from the A-Z handbook. Such as some characters got the wrong stats such as Centenial, so they can fix stuff like that.

I don't think the solicits are out for it yet, but Stuart Vandal mentioned it was happening a month ago.

How the hell did Sasquatch become part of this thread?

Anyhow I'm gonna go with Colossus here.

Originally posted by h1a8
Now I remember. Back in the 90's I use to collect Marvel comic cards (I had several complete sets of them).


Those Marvel cards arn't canon

Originally posted by h1a8

That logic follows if and only if the entire set of relevent showings in the comics are taken as a whole and not in parts. For instance, many here would show only 1 or 2 feats contradiction the handbook and then say that the handbook is wrong. I disagree. And I'm not arguing with you on the bios or anything similar in the handbooks that contradict the comics. My argument is only the stats in the handbooks.

Diamond Lil is another character they got wrong, they say she is athletic strength and she has knocked out an alternate reality She Hulk, threw a punch a hit the BOX armor through a building and he still kept flying for another 50 feet, killed 20 foot monsters with a single blow, she also has gone toe to toe physically, and even the writer said she has superhuman strength on part of the 1990's Spider-Man , but they list her as having athletic strength. Like I said check out my respect threads as I even explain in them how the handbook are wrong.

Originally posted by h1a8

Yes that may be true. But you have to indeed show at dozens of scans and not 1 or 2 (I will explain later). But know this; there can be a sound handbook stat and a wrong PIS feat in comics.

Errrr...if you want more scans contradicting the handbooks look at the respect theards. I literally have hundreds that contradict what the handbooks say. So I'm not talking about 1 or 2 scans.

Originally posted by h1a8

True, one shouldn't always simply follow the handbooks. They should only simply follow them if they haven't seen the entire (or even a majority) of a character's appearance to make a sound judgement.

Not even that as even the writers for the handbook entries don't read all the character's apperances, it's practically impossible due to the time frame their allowed to writer.

Originally posted by h1a8

Again, most of us haven't followed a character's every appearance like the handbook writers do. So we need handbooks as a guide. Now if someone was to show a good sized amount of feats that contradict the handbook stat then we, in good faith, can say that the handbook stat is an error. Other than that, I feel it's ok to trust the handbook stat.

Errr...like I said earlier the handbook writers do not read every comic the character is in. Stuart mentioned he is constantly under the gun for time to complete entries for the A-Z handbook and they have to remove a lot of detail , and can't give that indepth summary.

Originally posted by h1a8

Lastly, the logic "if there were no comics then there would be no handbooks" has no bearing on whether which source is more trustworthy. This is because there are contradictions in comics which make it sometimes impossible to determine the true stat on a character. But if one was to take the more consistent (majority) relevant showings as a basis (where handbooks try to do) then we get a sound basis for the character. Now this only applies to those here on the forum who use a small amount of feats to try to prove the handbook wrong.

The handbooks even validate the contradictions as they summarize what's happening in the comics. So as you said they make errors in the comic, but the handbooks simply don't ignore it they add it in their entry as well. So basically all the handbooks are summary of key points, not a characters entire history unless the character is obscure and has little apperances to begin with

Originally posted by h1a8

But I agree that comics hold more water than handbooks if and only if the majority of relevant showings contradict the handbook. But I also agree that the handbook holds more water if and only if someone was to only show a very small amount of feats that contradict the handbook. This is because the handbook tried to go on the majority of relevant showings as a basis and dismissed the outliers (these said feats) if they contradicted them. So to prove the handbook wrong is to prove the basis built on a relevant majority is wrong. But if one does this, then and only then can we accept in confidence that the handbook is wrong on the stat. But I, being reasonable, will take a minimum 3 showings (instead of the needed majority) that contradict the handbook for me to overthrow the handbook stat..

My whole thing has been on consistent showings throughout their carreer, as another error is Snowbird is said to have the intelligence of the Gods of the Arctic and has been said throughout her carrer over 20 times, but they list her as having "normal" intelligence.

I even did the 3 showings for the Master earlier, so 1/7 out of energy projection? That's quite wrong.

The way I see, we might as well get used to handbooks. They are not going anywhere. I enjoy reading them.

Anyways let's get back on track here. Colossus wins.

Any objections?

Originally posted by snoopdogg
The way I see, we might as well get used to handbooks. They are not going anywhere. I enjoy reading them.

Anyways let's get back on track here. Colossus wins.

Any objections?

Hell yes!

A bald Samson one-shots Colossus.

Originally posted by Soljer
Hell yes!

A bald Samson one-shots Colossus. Isn't he walking around with a crew cut now?

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Isn't he walking around with a crew cut now?

Yeah. And he was getting punked by a Russian Captain America.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Those Marvel cards arn't canon says who?
Are you using canon to mean "acceptible"? Because canon doesn't mean acceptible. For example, a writers written (or orally interviewed) statement is "acceptible" as evidence but not canon.



I don't care if she punched Superman to another galaxy with only physical power. You will still need sufficiently enough showings that contradict the majority of her relevent showings that were used to give her the stat. That is the only way to show that the handbook is in error. Otherwise, spiderman is greater than class 40 (for he has several feats above this).



I look at the respect threads on occassion. Sometimes I see many feats that people are misinterpreting wrong. With that said, I want more scans on the same character of a given stat (at least 3) and not mix and match scans on different characters (1 or 2 for each stat). Because it takes at least 3 scans in to overthrow the handbook in my mind.


All handbook writers that are assigned a certain character must and do read every appearance of that character in chronological order (jotting down notes as they go along). It says this on Marvel's web site.



Again, yes they do. Read the Marvel site about this.


The handbook uses only the majority of consistent relevant showings to produce the stat. They also talk to the original writers of that character when they need to and if it is possible (as also explained on the Marvel site too).




Yes, that is the only way to, in good faith, show that the handbook stat is wrong. Now I am never supporting that handbooks have no errors in them on stats. For I definitely believe they do. Its just take sound evidence to show this and 3 is good enough for me (this is all I'm saying).

With that said, Colossus wins this.
He is at least as strong as Samson but has better durability and arguably better fighting skill.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Marvel, they have gone to record the cards on the same level as Marvel Adventures. There more for kids and not to be taken serious as in the first volume they even made up some fun facts such as win/loss/draw records. Also from vol.2 (1991) they gave Galactus 1/7 in stamina, said Rhino was 5/7 . Thanos practically had better stats then Galactus and I'm not joking I had that Galactus card and yes, he shouldn't be a 1/7 in stamina. So true, that there are not only errors in the cards (especially in the earlier cards) but inconsistencies in different years. But many of the cards do have correct stats though even though characters have shown an increase in strength throughout the years (such as Thing and Rhino). Where do you get this info for Marvel doing this though?


You have been and are actually wasting your time. I didn't look at these scans nor have I looked at the scans for the past several post of these irrelevant characters. This is because I already agreed that handbooks have errors in them.
So what's to prove? Show only scans relevant to the thread, unless someone is arguing that handbooks are never wrong.

The work to create the handbooks is divided among many writers and it also takes a long time (years) to create these handbooks. So yes, I accept that writers either go through (not read word for word though) every appearance or consult with the original writers on the character they are assigned to write about (like Marvel says). Sorry, due to Marvel own words, I need proof that writers sometimes do neither. As it is hard for me to overrule something I read with my own eyes in an official site vs. mere hear say.


I believe the Marvel article more than hear say. Sorry, I need good proof in order not to. Faulty logic doesn't cut it. This is rational don't you think?


As Marvel claimed. They either do one or the other.


No more times (unless you want to waste time).
You should only post scans on if someone is arguing that handbooks have no errors in them or that the character being debated about in the thread has stat(s) in the handbook that is(are) wrong.

In conclusion, I have no problem believing the handbooks may have some errors. But certainly they have a lot of true things in them as well. And as a lesson to others reading this, one cannot say that a handbook stat is wrong without proving it by either someone showing at least 3 scans contradictory to it or it itself being common sense (comix sense ), like Galactus having 1/7 in stamina which means a 1 min stamina, lol.