Comic Book Mythbuster

Mr. Slippyfist

Thanos is scared of the Hulk.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/ThanosQuest1-31.jpg

Now, all Thanos says is that he has avoided this battle, or sought to avoid. It never says he's scared of Hulk; it's more along the lines of: "I'd fight him, but I'd rather not."

Now, this is also before Thanos had actually ever met Hulk as well, and before his upgrade(s). Thanos didn't know him, or know his power... he just heard the hearsay I guess on Hulk. It's incredibly hard to judge something based on that, and based on the hearsay of Hulk... a lot of people would avoid a battle with him as well.

Also, after his upgrade Thanos did something in particular that pertains to this, that he would never had done before.
What he did was journey into the Nexus of Realities. He specifically says that he would never have done this in his previous body. Which could also mean that he wouldn't have fought Hulk in his previous body as well:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/ThanosQuest1-09.jpg

Plus, even if he did fear Hulk as the myth has led us to believe, it's incredibly off base for Thanos, and his history. He's fought Galactus, Beyonder, Odin, Tyrant, and beings of that nature. Of course this is after he was re-incarnated, which could mean that it might be OK in a debate against Pre-Hat Thanos, but not Thanos after he was brought back.

Also, the most visible part of this myth that the people who use this fail to see, is that he says that Champion is akin to fighting Hulk, and he would rather avoid that battle... but at the same time he went into battle with Champion. Which would be like going into battle with Hulk.
Which, on its own would rule out Thanos being scared of Hulk.

_______________

Also, of course, evidence.
These first two parts of Hulk/Thanos are from 'Infinity War'. What is relevant about this, is that Thanos was weaker in this series. He was only at about half power, or he got a power up (either one makes him weaker than he is now).
Based on after he ate his Thanos clone:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/WarlockInfinityWatch10-21.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/WarlockInfinityWatch10-22.jpg

Anyway.
He insults Hulk, when he has his own back turned.

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/7843/infintywars0434ft3.th.jpg

Hulk, and Earth heroes can't break the shield...

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/6271/quasar3814of2.th.jpg

Thanos and Warlock do it in one shot.

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/7605/quasar3816zt8.th.jpg

What's the first thing he does?
Go after Hulk and Thing, insulting them.

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/135/quasar3817ou3.th.jpg

Of course...
"Strange, leash your dog, or I will."
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/th_theend02-06.jpg

He is so scared of Hulk... he gets between him and Namor, and puts them both in bubbles they can't break out.
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/9718/theend3qz2.th.jpg

Thanos clone. And this one I believe is the one from Kazar... which would make him a low level Thanos clone.
This is quite interesting actually.
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/9588/xha98p17fj8.th.jpg

The funny thing is... that he was actually planning on giving HULK POWER.
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/3678/xha98p25mz4.th.jpg

Can't go out without this...
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/5559/xha98p30qd1.th.jpg

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/5310/xha98p31pl9.th.jpg

_______________

Now, everything about Hulk/Thanos points to Thanos having no fear of Hulk. The only way this myth can be relevant, is if Hulk was fighting Post resurrection Thanos, and even then, fear/avoiding a battle doesn't equate into you being weaker than the opponent.
This is one of the most annoying things people say, and IMO at least, this is totally busted.
Busted

TricksterPriest

This looks like a promising idea. thumb up

Co-sign with Sym. Mr. M and GS would bury this with their cosmics arguements.

LORD B

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
Thanos is scared of the Hulk.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/ThanosQuest1-31.jpg

Now, all Thanos says is that he has avoided this battle, or sought to avoid. It never says he's scared of Hulk; it's more along the lines of: "I'd fight him, but I'd rather not."

Now, this is also before Thanos had actually ever met Hulk as well, and before his upgrade(s). Thanos didn't know him, or know his power... he just heard the hearsay I guess on Hulk. It's incredibly hard to judge something based on that, and based on the hearsay of Hulk... a lot of people would avoid a battle with him as well.

Also, after his upgrade Thanos did something in particular that pertains to this, that he would never had done before.
What he did was journey into the Nexus of Realities. He specifically says that he would never have done this in his previous body. Which could also mean that he wouldn't have fought Hulk in his previous body as well:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/ThanosQuest1-09.jpg

Plus, even if he did fear Hulk as the myth has led us to believe, it's incredibly off base for Thanos, and his history. He's fought Galactus, Beyonder, Odin, Tyrant, and beings of that nature. Of course this is after he was re-incarnated, which could mean that it might be OK in a debate against Pre-Hat Thanos, but not Thanos after he was brought back.

Also, the most visible part of this myth that the people who use this fail to see, is that he says that Champion is akin to fighting Hulk, and he would rather avoid that battle... but at the same time he went into battle with Champion. Which would be like going into battle with Hulk.
Which, on its own would rule out Thanos being scared of Hulk.

_______________

Also, of course, evidence.
These first two parts of Hulk/Thanos are from 'Infinity War'. What is relevant about this, is that Thanos was weaker in this series. He was only at about half power, or he got a power up (either one makes him weaker than he is now).
Based on after he ate his Thanos clone:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/WarlockInfinityWatch10-21.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/WarlockInfinityWatch10-22.jpg

Anyway.
He insults Hulk, when he has his own back turned.

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/7843/infintywars0434ft3.th.jpg

Hulk, and Earth heroes can't break the shield...

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/6271/quasar3814of2.th.jpg

Thanos and Warlock do it in one shot.

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/7605/quasar3816zt8.th.jpg

What's the first thing he does?
Go after Hulk and Thing, insulting them.

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/135/quasar3817ou3.th.jpg

Of course...
"Strange, leash your dog, or I will."
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/th_theend02-06.jpg

He is so scared of Hulk... he gets between him and Namor, and puts them both in bubbles they can't break out.
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/9718/theend3qz2.th.jpg

Thanos clone. And this one I believe is the one from Kazar... which would make him a low level Thanos clone.
This is quite interesting actually.
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/9588/xha98p17fj8.th.jpg

The funny thing is... that he was actually planning on giving HULK POWER.
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/3678/xha98p25mz4.th.jpg

Can't go out without this...
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/5559/xha98p30qd1.th.jpg

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/5310/xha98p31pl9.th.jpg

_______________

Now, everything about Hulk/Thanos points to Thanos having no fear of Hulk. The only way this myth can be relevant, is if Hulk was fighting Post resurrection Thanos, and even then, fear/avoiding a battle doesn't equate into you being weaker than the opponent.

This is one of the most annoying things people say, and IMO at least, this is totally busted.
Busted

great post,not that the thanos haters will take a blind bit if notice

DigiMark007

We technically can't block members from posting, so the idea about Master and GS will have to remain just a suggestion. I would hope that they'll be able to stick to protocol, see that this is a promising thread, and not overwhelm us with their debates. But they're certainly welcome to contribute, just so long as it remains as brief and respectful as possible.

xmarksthespot

I'd do the myth of "Apocalypse being an equal or greater telepath than Xavier." but that's already been outlined and busted in multiple threads. 313

DigiMark007

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I'd do the myth of "Apocalypse being an equal or greater telepath than Xavier." but that's already been outlined and busted in multiple threads. 313

Might be worth a repost.

Anyway, I have 1-2 I can contribute too. One from Authority and one for Spider-Man.

...

And it's kind of unfortunate how some respect threads are run these days. Our respect forum is great, so I'm not complaining, but occasionally you get the "what can I get away with?" mentality rather than just trying to show what someone is capable of and what their limitations are. "Capability" threads are probably better than "respect" threads, if only because the name suggests a slightly different intent....informing others rather than boosting a character's rep.

...

Oh, and as long as we're suggesting things that should stay out of this thread, I'm making a quasi-official rule that Storm stuff isn't allowed. No freaking way I'm letting that idiocy take over this thread.

And people should also feel free to validate myths if they are true as well. This thread can run both ways, so long as the analysis is thorough and as objective as possible.

Bad Ash231

Martian_mind

I may do that Plasticman is immune to telepathy...

or that Fernus was a better telepath then Jonn...

pr1983

*wants so badly to show that the sacrifice fight isnt an example of wonder woman hanging with a super amped superman*

shifty

ExodusCloak

Barney

Originally posted by pr1983
*wants so badly to show that the sacrifice fight isnt an example of wonder woman hanging with a super amped superman*

shifty

Go for it.

Soljer

Originally posted by grey fox
Not particularly. It is an In-canon explanation for why Darksieds Insta-kill power doesn't work on DC's flagship character.

Where is that explanation provided in-canon?

xmarksthespot

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
"Rachel Grey has been cited an Omega Level Mutant" Myth.
The first usage of the word "omega" in the context referring to Omega mutants in X-Men Forever in 2001 -
Jean Grey and Iceman:

The following uses of the term all occur after the meaning outlined above is applied to the use of the term Omega mutant and serve as official confirmation of the character as an Omega mutant.
Jean Grey again and Quentin Quire:

More Quentin Quire:

Franklin Richards:

Mr M:

Iceman again:

Vulcan:

Elixir:

----------

The one-off use of the word "omega" in 1986, "Class Omega Contact" about Rachel. Nimrod is not referring to the later defined Alpha, Beta, Epsilon system used by Apocalypse, nor is he alluding to the same meaning as was written in 2001.

Nimrod identified non-mutants as "Contacts." Which means the classification used, applied not only to mutants but to non-mutants as well. And therefore the use of the phrase "Class Omega Contact" does not hold the same meaning as the use of the word "omega" in the context of mutants exclusively 15 years subsequently.

Additionally, the Nimrod's classification is based upon how much of a threat the person, mutant or non-mutant, is to Nimrod.

The entry for Rachel Summers in The 198 Files, the same type of entry as the ones above for Iceman, Elixir, Quentin Quire, Franklin and Mr M:

No mention of the term Omega mutant.
And I'm unaware of anything else, since 2001, that would label her an Omega.

There are no other instances where the term Omega mutant has been applied unambiguously to characters, without qualifiers such as potentially or possibly.

The officially confirmed 7 Omegas are therefore:
Jean Grey
Iceman (Bobby Drake)
Kid Omega (Quentin Quire)
Mister M (Absolom Mercator)
Franklin Richards
Vulcan (Gabriel Summers)
Elixir (Josh Foley)

(On a side-note, 'twas funny looking through that old Omega mutant thread.)

xmarksthespot

Myth: Apocalypse under normal conditions has substantive telepathy, equal to or surpassing Charles Xavier

Firstly I'll repost verbatim some of the incidents used to justify this myth:
- The first thing to note is that incidents 1, 2 and 5, do not entail any telepathy whatsoever (1 being techno/telekinesis, 2 and 5 being telekinesis) are therefore irrelevant and will not be discussed any further.
- Secondly, incident 7 never occurred at all and therefore will not be discussed any further.
- Therefore let's examine the cases that may have telepathic basis: #3, 4, 6, 8 and 9.
- We'll begin with this one as it's the simplest. Apocalypse did not telepathically mind control the Inhumans. They were suborned via brainwashing. The brainwashing is a technological process rather than a telepathic one as depicted here - as baby Cable is resisting the technological suborning process.
- First thing to note is to refer to her as Phoenix is somewhat disingenuous. Jean Grey did not have access to the Phoenix Force at all between X-Factor v1 #65 until New X-Men #120.
- Secondly this is not a feat of any actual active telepathy. Jean Grey is not telepathically attacked, she has her own telepathic attack reflected back at her. It is rather a feat of mental defense.
- Thirdly the on-panel dialogue alludes to Apocalypse lacking telepathy whatsoever as he reacts to it as something he has yet to encounter. "So you have the power to see into men's minds, to influence them... to control them. Surely, there is no power greater than that. This is something I shall prepare for!" This apparent lack of telepathy will be discussed further below.
- Lastly, these mental defenses have been depicted in a less favourable light against Jean Grey.

- This is Apocalypse only possible feat of offensive telepathy and the first thing to note is this isn't conclusively telepathy. I can't recall ever seeing telepathy accompanied by a sound effect such as the "Zrak." in this scan. The energy of the attack surrounds Xavier's upper body not just his head and it could simply be an energy blast.
- Secondly this is not Apocalypse under normal conditions, this is Apocalypse amplified by a Celestial device drawing upon the power of the Twelve and Nate Grey.
- Thirdly, Xavier was not as far as depicted rendered unconscious - as he was active when next seen on panel.
- Fourthly, if indeed this is telepathy it doesn't give any gauge as to telepathic ability - telepaths are not passively any more resistant to telepathy than anyone else. Telepaths do not constantly defend either.

A telepathic sucker punch knocking someone down briefly is really no different than a physical sucker punch doing the same thing, with regard to the fact that a weaker person is capable of doing it to a stronger person.
To illustrate this point here is Emma Frost psiblasting Nate Grey:
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/2609/xman05003yp8rc0.jpg

- And finally, I'll reiterate this for emphasis - this is a one-off occurrence of offensive telepathy, never seen before and never seen again.

- There isn't much to say about this, mind reading is a relatively rudimentary telepathic feat when compared to most other telepaths. Xavier has been doing this since he was a teenager, and on an aside Xavier has been shown psiblasting in utero.
- Ozymandias has kept secrets from Apocalypse so this is relatively incomplete mind-reading.

- Those are speech bubbles indicating someone off-panel is speaking aloud not telepathic communication bubbles. The Scarab Beast emerges from the ground revealing it to be the one speaking.
- There's nothing to suggest anyone is talking through the Scarab Beast creature telepathically. If anything the creature can speak independently referring to itself as "me".
- Even if there was any evidence to support the claim made, it most certainly wouldn't support a notion of superiority to Xavier. Typhoid Mary can control weak-willed beasts too.

So what can we conclude thus far from the above?
- Out of all the "telepathic" feats ascribed to Apocalypse most are not actually telepathic, never occurred or have no evidence for their occurrence (1-7, 9).
- Only one shows something that is definitively telepathic, incident 8. And this is relatively weak telepathy.
- The only other incident is the psiblast, which may not actually be a psiblast at all - and a psiblast sucker punch gives no indication of the level of telepathic power or skill. If it was indeed a psiblast, the same effect would have likely been observed whether it had been a random Morlock or Saturn Girl.

So let's move onto a related question:
Does Apocalypse have telepathy at all?

Well the first strike against him having telepathy is his reaction in incident 3 above where he speaks of telepathy as something he has yet to encounter.

The second is his apparent inability to travel to the Astral Plane on his own accord.
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3945/58182587fr3.jpg
- It's been stated by some without evidence that this was due to the need to be physically transported to the Astral Plane - there is no evidence of IW nor Cable nor Apocalypse being physically on the Astral Plane. As the name dictates you cannot be physically on the Astral Plane afaik.
- The three travel in astral form via the Astral Plane, to sneak into Onslaught's Citadel which is outside of the Astral Plane made of solidified telepathic energy can be accessed via the Astral or Physical Planes. Upon entering the Citadel outside of the Astral Plane they are instantly detected and, like the Citadel is telepathic energy made physical, they are physical beings there too. IW is revealed having been kept concealed telepathically as they traversed the Astral Plane into the Citadel.

And finally there is this:
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/9914/93421844ou4.jpg
The last of these five telepaths is Emma Frost. From which one can conclude that if Marvel ever did or still does consider Apocalypse a telepath at all, he at the very least isn't of the level of any of those five.

Verdict:
It is questionable whether Apocalypse has any telepathic ability at all and there's nothing to suggest he is equal to or superior to Xavier under normal conditions.
Busted? I think so, but you be the judge. doped

willRules

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Myth: Apocalypse under normal conditions has substantive telepathy, equal to or surpassing Charles Xavier

Firstly I'll repost verbatim some of the incidents used to justify this myth:
- The first thing to note is that incidents 1, 2 and 5, do not entail any telepathy whatsoever (1 being techno/telekinesis, 2 and 5 being telekinesis) are therefore irrelevant and will not be discussed any further.
- Secondly, incident 7 never occurred at all and therefore will not be discussed any further.
- Therefore let's examine the cases that may have telepathic basis: #3, 4, 6, 8 and 9.
- We'll begin with this one as it's the simplest. Apocalypse did not telepathically mind control the Inhumans. They were suborned via brainwashing. The brainwashing is a technological process rather than a telepathic one as depicted here - as baby Cable is resisting the technological suborning process.
- First thing to note is to refer to her as Phoenix is somewhat disingenuous. Jean Grey did not have access to the Phoenix Force at all between X-Factor v1 #65 until New X-Men #120.
- Secondly this is not a feat of any actual active telepathy. Jean Grey is not telepathically attacked, she has her own telepathic attack reflected back at her. It is rather a feat of mental defense.
- Thirdly the on-panel dialogue alludes to Apocalypse lacking telepathy whatsoever as he reacts to it as something he has yet to encounter. "So you have the power to see into men's minds, to influence them... to control them. Surely, there is no power greater than that. This is something I shall prepare for!" This apparent lack of telepathy will be discussed further below.
- Lastly, these mental defenses have been depicted in a less favourable light against Jean Grey.

- This is Apocalypse only possible feat of offensive telepathy and the first thing to note is this isn't conclusively telepathy. I can't recall ever seeing telepathy accompanied by a sound effect such as the "Zrak." in this scan. The energy of the attack surrounds Xavier's upper body not just his head and it could simply be an energy blast.
- Secondly this is not Apocalypse under normal conditions, this is Apocalypse amplified by a Celestial device drawing upon the power of the Twelve and Nate Grey.
- Thirdly, Xavier was not as far as depicted rendered unconscious - as he was active when next seen on panel.
- Fourthly, if indeed this is telepathy it doesn't give any gauge as to telepathic ability - telepaths are not passively any more resistant to telepathy than anyone else. Telepaths do not constantly defend either.

A telepathic sucker punch knocking someone down briefly is really no different than a physical sucker punch doing the same thing, with regard to the fact that a weaker person is capable of doing it to a stronger person.
To illustrate this point here is Emma Frost psiblasting Nate Grey:
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/2609/xman05003yp8rc0.jpg

- And finally, I'll reiterate this for emphasis - this is a one-off occurrence of offensive telepathy, never seen before and never seen again.

- There isn't much to say about this, mind reading is a relatively rudimentary telepathic feat when compared to most other telepaths. Xavier has been doing this since he was a teenager, and on an aside Xavier has been shown psiblasting in utero.
- Ozymandias has kept secrets from Apocalypse so this is relatively incomplete mind-reading.

- Those are speech bubbles indicating someone off-panel is speaking aloud not telepathic communication bubbles. The Scarab Beast emerges from the ground revealing it to be the one speaking.
- There's nothing to suggest anyone is talking through the Scarab Beast creature telepathically. If anything the creature can speak independently referring to itself as "me".
- Even if there was any evidence to support the claim made, it most certainly wouldn't support a notion of superiority to Xavier. Typhoid Mary can control weak-willed beasts too.

So what can we conclude thus far from the above?
- Out of all the "telepathic" feats ascribed to Apocalypse most are not actually telepathic, never occurred or have no evidence for their occurrence (1-7, 9).
- Only one shows something that is definitively telepathic, incident 8. And this is relatively weak telepathy.
- The only other incident is the psiblast, which may not actually be a psiblast at all - and a psiblast sucker punch gives no indication of the level of telepathic power or skill. If it was indeed a psiblast, the same effect would have likely been observed whether it had been a random Morlock or Saturn Girl.

So let's move onto a related question:
Does Apocalypse have telepathy at all?

Well the first strike against him having telepathy is his reaction in incident 3 above where he speaks of telepathy as something he has yet to encounter.

The second is his apparent inability to travel to the Astral Plane on his own accord.
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3945/58182587fr3.jpg
- It's been stated by some without evidence that this was due to the need to be physically transported to the Astral Plane - there is no evidence of IW nor Cable nor Apocalypse being physically on the Astral Plane. As the name dictates you cannot be physically on the Astral Plane afaik.
- The three travel in astral form via the Astral Plane, to sneak into Onslaught's Citadel which is outside of the Astral Plane made of solidified telepathic energy can be accessed via the Astral or Physical Planes. Upon entering the Citadel outside of the Astral Plane they are instantly detected and, like the Citadel is telepathic energy made physical, they are physical beings there too. IW is revealed having been kept concealed telepathically as they traversed the Astral Plane into the Citadel.

And finally there is this:
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/9914/93421844ou4.jpg
The last of these five telepaths is Emma Frost. From which one can conclude that if Marvel ever did or still does consider Apocalypse a telepath at all, he at the very least isn't of the level of any of those five.

Verdict:
It is questionable whether Apocalypse has any telepathic ability at all and there's nothing to suggest he is equal to or superior to Xavier under normal conditions.
Busted? I think so, but you be the judge. doped

Totally agree yes

Bad Ash231

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
We'll begin with this one as it's the simplest. Apocalypse did not telepathically mind control the Inhumans. They were suborned via brainwashing.

How did Apocalypse manage to brainwash Crystal? Wasn't she one of the many who attacked Apocalypse's base?

I'm not an expert on Crystal's powers... but what is all that pink energy surrounding Apocalypse's head?

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/apocmindconrol.png

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Secondly this is not a feat of any actual active telepathy. Jean Grey is not telepathically attacked, she has her own telepathic attack reflected back at her. It is rather a feat of mental defense.

Or maybe Apocalypse did to Jean Grey what Exodus did to Sersi...?

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/517/blackknightexodus35ds8.th.jpg http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6433/blackknightexodus36cj2.th.jpg

I've never seen someone with mental defenses being capable of reflecting telepathic attacks.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Thirdly the on-panel dialogue alludes to Apocalypse lacking telepathy whatsoever as he reacts to it as something he has yet to encounter.

Apocalypse was aware of telepathy long before The Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix.

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5236/xmen28186id6.th.jpg

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Lastly, these mental defenses have been depicted in a less favourable light against Jean Grey.

It was the f*cking love connection between Jean and Cyclops.

The ending was rubbish. anyway...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Secondly this is not Apocalypse under normal conditions, this is Apocalypse amplified by a Celestial device drawing upon the power of the Twelve and Nate Grey.

All the more reason then that Xavier's head should have been f*cking blown apart. no expression

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The Scarab Beast emerges from the ground revealing it to be the one speaking.

The creature was teleported there, so it couldn't have been the one speaking.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
There's nothing to suggest anyone is talking through the Scarab Beast creature telepathically. If anything the creature can speak independently referring to itself as "me".

Or Apocalypse simply did not care to acknowledge that he was controlling the creature.

And why would Apocalypse let some low servant speak instead of him? The dialogue also sounds like Apocalypse..

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
It is questionable whether Apocalypse has any telepathic ability at all and there's nothing to suggest he is equal to or superior to Xavier under normal conditions.

...Why do you keep saying that? I, for one, have never believed that Apocalypse has greater telepathy than Xavier.

WrathfulDwarf

We can't really bust some of these myths base on feats. The writers can make changes or upgrades to the characters which can out perform their previous skills. So we can't really go with the judgements of "Busted" or "Confirmed" like Jamie and Adam do when they test a myth. Here we can come to conclusions like "Plausible"

However, there are some facts which do hold in arguments.

Case in point.

Batman can beat Superman.

False! Batman can only SLOW Superman with the Kryptonian ring. He can't beat him. Period!

No ring...No Batman beats Superman.

Can Batman outsmart Superman?

Yes! He can predict Superman's attacks. He can estimate Superman's moves...can he beat him? No..at least physically...he cannot. Is Batman smarter than Superman? yeah.

(Too lazy to post scans)

xmarksthespot

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
How did Apocalypse manage to brainwash Crystal? Wasn't she one of the many who attacked Apocalypse's base?

I'm not an expert on Crystal's powers... but what is all that pink energy surrounding Apocalypse's head?

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/apocmindconrol.png

Or maybe Apocalypse did to Jean Grey what Exodus did to Sersi...?

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/517/blackknightexodus35ds8.th.jpg http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6433/blackknightexodus36cj2.th.jpg

I've never seen someone with mental defenses being capable of reflecting telepathic attacks.

Apocalypse was aware of telepathy long before The Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix.

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5236/xmen28186id6.th.jpg

It was the f*cking love connection between Jean and Cyclops.
The ending was rubbish. anyway...

All the more reason then that Xavier's head should have been f*cking blown apart. no expression

The creature was teleported there, so it couldn't have been the one speaking.

Or Apocalypse simply did not care to acknowledge that he was controlling the creature.

And why would Apocalypse let some low servant speak instead of him? The dialogue also sounds like Apocalypse..

...Why do you keep saying that? I, for one, have never believed that Apocalypse has greater telepathy than Xavier. Crystal was captured in the issue prior. Presumably she was brainwashed as Medusa was brainwashed as they were trying to brainwash baby Cable. erm

I have no idea why Apocalypse for some reason is entirely colored pink in that panel. Presumably the entire background being colored pink in another panel indicates the background is using telepathy. hmm

Exodus reflecting Sersi's attack really isn't a feat of active telepathy just as Apocalypse reflecting Jean's energy back at her. The mental energy that harms her is her own green energy signature reflected back at her.
Using that feat to attribute anything more than mental defenses to Exodus would be fallacious, just as with the Apocalypse-Jean incident.
However Exodus has other telepathic feats to his name for him to be acknowledged as a telepath.

I'm not aware of when exactly that speech between the Celestial and Apocalypse occurs issue-wise or chronology-wise. It's interesting though that Apocalypse doesn't converse via telepathy, and that the Celestial for some reason feels the need to explain it's using telepathic communication to Apocalypse - of course that's really neither here nor there. What is relevant to that scan however is that in that scan of supposed telepathy, Apocalypse reacts to it as a novel thing.

Normal durability characters often take energy attacks without suffering what should be the full consequences. Chalk it up to writers not wanting characters to die that easily.

The creature emerged from beneath the ground. Sand falls from it as it surfaces - they are clearly speech bubbles at any rate. There's still nothing to suggest anybody speaking through it, besides wishful thinking.

I didn't say that you did propagate this, the thread is about myths propagated. At some point someone disseminated this myth, and I've seen it pop up in multiple threads. I felt like addressing it. doped

I think the myth as stated above is busted others are welcome to disagree, there's a thread already to discuss it elsewhere anyway.

llagrok

Myth: Odin was unable to defeat Thanos

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor_vol2-523-021-17.jpg

Bam.

That was retconned into being a clone.

But Bam.

Bad Ash231

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I'm not aware of when exactly that speech between the Celestial and Apocalypse occurs issue-wise or chronology-wise.

X-Men vol. 2, #186

It's meant to take place way back when Apocalypse first bonds with and gains Celestial technology to his disposal.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
It's interesting though that Apocalypse doesn't converse via telepathy, and that the Celestial for some reason feels the need to explain it's using telepathic communication to Apocalypse - of course that's really neither here nor there. What is relevant to that scan however is that in that scan of supposed telepathy, Apocalypse reacts to it as a novel thing.

Apocalypse pretty much discovers the power of telepathy for the first time there.

Apocalypse's power set has always been very flimsy. Back in Rise of Apocalypse, his mutant ability wasn't just to alter his atomic structure, but he also displayed energy projection and levitation (telekinesis) before coming across any technology at all. It's rather unclear just what exactly the Celestial tech granted Apocalypse. But if anything, I'd say that it could have been telepathy.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The creature emerged from beneath the ground. Sand falls from it as it surfaces - they are clearly speech bubbles at any rate. There's still nothing to suggest anybody speaking through it, besides wishful thinking.

So, what's with the big explosion when the creature shows up?

xmarksthespot

I'm guessing it's from Scarab Beast bursting out of the ground... ermm

If the off-panel speech isn't from the creature, then I guess someone just has a really loud voice. erm

Bad Ash231

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I'm guessing it's from Scarab Beast bursting out of the ground... ermm

Bursting out of the ground causes energy explosions?

I wonder why that didn't happen when this guy burst out of the ground...

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/6875/blackknightexodus27ql4.th.jpg http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/9754/blackknightexodus28ch4.th.jpg

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
If the off-panel speech isn't from the creature, then I guess someone just has a really loud voice. erm

Or it could be Apoc speaking to Exodus telepathically. Telepathic communication bubbles, as seen by the artist, could maybe just be normal speech bubbles.

Unless of course there's some other issue with the same artist that has telepathic bubbles done differently...

Ni�oAra�a

I might do the 'Sentry brainwashed the world' myth. ermmnone

xmarksthespot

Perhaps the creature decided to enter with a bang? I don't know. What I do know is that the speech is quite clearly as depicted smooth unbroken vocal speech balloons - firstly as off-panel speech and then later the same style used pointing towards the creature. erm

The rest is just supposition. "Telepathic communication bubbles, as seen by the artist, could maybe just be normal speech bubbles." blink

Does that mean throughout the entire issue everyone is telepathically conversing? It makes no sense. no expression

Telepathy in comics is depicted with double dashed lines breaking the balloon, be it a cloud balloon or a smooth balloon. If a comic reader knows this, I have no reason to doubt a comic artist knows this.

I don't have access to my comics right now, but if it's really necessary then I can have a look at Jim Cheung's other comics to see if he's as ignorant of this and inept as you believe him to be... ermm

Bad Ash231

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The rest is just supposition. "Telepathic communication bubbles, as seen by the artist, could maybe just be normal speech bubbles." blink

Does that mean throughout the entire issue everyone is telepathically conversing? It makes no sense. no expression

Of course it doesn't.

I'm grasping at strings here.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Telepathy in comics is depicted with double dashed lines breaking the balloon, be it a cloud balloon or a smooth balloon. If a comic reader knows this, I have no reason to doubt a comic artist knows this.

I don't have access to my comics right now, but if it's really necessary then I can have a look at Jim Cheung's other comics to see if he's as ignorant of this and inept as you believe him to be... ermm

You do that. 131

xmarksthespot

Why I oughta... miffed

King_Mungi

Myth: Batman's kick hurt Spectre
Tales of the Unexpected #4
How many times did we hear that Batman hurt the Spectre with the bat-kick? To many to count, but in reality it did nothing and Sprectre even mentions he made to make Batman feel good about the situation as it was hopeless for him.

1. http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd199/MachineMan616/019.jpg
2. http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd199/MachineMan616/020.jpg

SpearofDestiny

I keep hearing different things about Lucifer and Yahweh:

1) Did Lucifer create a Universe or a Multiverse ? Was it first a universe, later retconned to a multiverse, or was it a universe filled with alternate realities?

2) A certain member stated that Yahweh had created a "sea of multiverses" when all that is mentioned is Yahweh's "one creation" which he made after several "practice creations".

Then the only other creation mentioned is Lucifer's, which once merged with Yahweh's become's Elaine's.

So where is this "sea of multiverses"...I would like to know...

pr1983

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
We can't really bust some of these myths base on feats. The writers can make changes or upgrades to the characters which can out perform their previous skills. So we can't really go with the judgements of "Busted" or "Confirmed" like Jamie and Adam do when they test a myth. Here we can come to conclusions like "Plausible"

However, there are some facts which do hold in arguments.

Case in point.

Batman can beat Superman.

False! Batman can only SLOW Superman with the Kryptonian ring. He can't beat him. Period!

No ring...No Batman beats Superman.

Can Batman outsmart Superman?

Yes! He can predict Superman's attacks. He can estimate Superman's moves...can he beat him? No..at least physically...he cannot. Is Batman smarter than Superman? yeah.

(Too lazy to post scans)

better detective? sure. smarter all round? no, i dont believe so...

Accel

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Myth: Batman's kick hurt Spectre
Tales of the Unexpected #4
How many times did we hear that Batman hurt the Spectre with the bat-kick? To many to count, but in reality it did nothing and Sprectre even mentions he made to make Batman feel good about the situation as it was hopeless for him.

1. http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd199/MachineMan616/019.jpg
2. http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd199/MachineMan616/020.jpg
I don't think that one is so much a myth as it is a running joke. Like Darkseid falling down the stairs.

King_Mungi

Originally posted by Accel
I don't think that one is so much a myth as it is a running joke. Like Darkseid falling down the stairs.

Naaaa I just corrected people who were under the assumption Batman actually ko'ed him erm

manjaro

bats did kick the shit outta darksied tho.....when he was re-omega powered...even made him say unnghhh

Mr. Slippyfist

Like Master P?

manjaro

na na na naaaaaaa!!!

Inhuman

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Naaaa I just corrected people who were under the assumption Batman actually ko'ed him erm

Its kinda silly though saying " I thought it would make you feel better".
I can never imagine captain america punching the living tribunal in the face and him saying, "Feel better now captain".

Batman did not KO spectre but he did connect with a batkick...
snapping his head back like a rag doll shifty

Rhinoceros

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

- This is Apocalypse only possible feat of offensive telepathy and the first thing to note is this isn't conclusively telepathy. I can't recall ever seeing telepathy accompanied by a sound effect such as the "Zrak." in this scan. The energy of the attack surrounds Xavier's upper body not just his head and it could simply be an energy blast.
- Secondly this is not Apocalypse under normal conditions, this is Apocalypse amplified by a Celestial device drawing upon the power of the Twelve and Nate Grey.
- Thirdly, Xavier was not as far as depicted rendered unconscious - as he was active when next seen on panel.
- Fourthly, if indeed this is telepathy it doesn't give any gauge as to telepathic ability - telepaths are not passively any more resistant to telepathy than anyone else. Telepaths do not constantly defend either.

How did this celestial device power Apocalypse? He was transferring his own conciousness to X-man's body (Which is a telepathical feat itself, right?)

And like I said before, if Apocalypse can give Wolverine TP though technology, how come he doesn't have it himself? (Yes, Wolverine was able to sever the link between Jean and Cyke, talk telepathically etc)

Battlehammer

? Logan was given tp blockers and tech he was not given tp.

Jimmy Buggs

Originally posted by Battlehammer
? Logan was given tp blockers and tech he was not given tp.

He was given tp , tp for his bunghole by the great cornholieooo

manjaro

that doubt strips away gladiator's powers....all it does is cuase him to lower his whatchamahoosit field. Being strong,invulnerable and flight are attributes he has inherently. self doubt cuases him to lower his gaurd thats all. if the person doesnt have the requisite amount of brute force or energy powers that can harm all that is meaningless. in other other words a chance meeting with some Randy Randomski wouldnt play out like

RR: Hey glads,

G: hey wassup?

RR: ur daddy really isnt your daddy

G: Whu....Wha?

RR: *whips out a piece of 2-by-4* Whammm!!!!

G: oooo pretty stars

xmarksthespot

Originally posted by Rhinoceros
How did this celestial device power Apocalypse? He was transferring his own conciousness to X-man's body (Which is a telepathical feat itself, right?) The device was drawing and channeling the power of the Twelve and Nate Grey into Apocalypse at the beginning of X-Men #97, iirc. And using a machine to transfer consciousness isn't a telepathic feat at all. Originally posted by Rhinoceros
And like I said before, if Apocalypse can give Wolverine TP though technology, What?

Rhinoceros

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The device was drawing and channeling the power of the Twelve and Nate Grey into Apocalypse at the beginning of X-Men #97, iirc. And using a machine to transfer consciousness isn't a telepathic feat at all. What?

How do we know he was using a machine to transfer his conciousness into X-man? Was this stated or shown, I'll apology my ignorance in advance, but the Finnish book has quite bit cut from it. Besides, isn't Apocalypse a technopath, why couldn't he integrate this power into himself?

When Wolverine was Death, he attacked Cable, Nate, Cyke, Angel, Jean and Skrullverine. And while he was fighting with Cyclops and CO Cyke tried to reach Jean by the telepathiclink they share with Jean Death was able to know where Jean and the Manites were.

And later on he was able to sever this bond between the two.

xmarksthespot

Originally posted by Rhinoceros
How do we know he was using a machine to transfer his conciousness into X-man? Was this stated or shown, I'll apology my ignorance in advance, but the Finnish book has quite bit cut from it. Besides, isn't Apocalypse a technopath, why couldn't he integrate this power into himself? He needed Nate Grey's body to contain his essence and power after drawing from the Twelve, as his body couldn't contain it. Apocalypse can't just body-hop, he isn't Proteus, he needed the Celestial device. ermm
Originally posted by Rhinoceros
When Wolverine was Death, he attacked Cable, Nate, Cyke, Angel, Jean and Skrullverine. And while he was fighting with Cyclops and CO Cyke tried to reach Jean by the telepathiclink they share with Jean Death was able to know where Jean and the Manites were.

And later on he was able to sever this bond between the two. I'll have to look into it; but if even Battlehammer doesn't recall Wolverine ever having telepathy, then I'm understandably somewhat doubtful.

Regardless two or three singular instances of telepathy, does not a first order telepath make.

xmarksthespot

Originally posted by Rhinoceros
When Wolverine was Death, he attacked Cable, Nate, Cyke, Angel, Jean and Skrullverine. And while he was fighting with Cyclops and CO Cyke tried to reach Jean by the telepathiclink they share with Jean Death was able to know where Jean and the Manites were.

And later on he was able to sever this bond between the two. I finally found out what you're referring to, the Astonishing X-Men miniseries. Cable says he thinks Deathverine is trying to trace the telepathic signal, but in the end Deathverine just hitches a ride on the Blackbird; trickery rather than telepathy.

Then later Deathverine somehow blocks telepathic communication, so projected psiblock technology. His sword can also somehow block projected telepathy/telekinesis for some reason.

Magneto created Alpha the Ultimate Mutant. doped

Rhinoceros

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I finally found out what you're referring to, the Astonishing X-Men miniseries. Cable says he thinks Deathverine is trying to trace the telepathic signal, but in the end Deathverine just hitches a ride on the Blackbird; trickery rather than telepathy.

Then later Deathverine somehow blocks telepathic communication, so projected psiblock technology. His sword can also somehow block projected telepathy/telekinesis for some reason.

Magneto created Alpha the Ultimate Mutant. doped

Ah sorry, should have been clearer, but really. Do they explain all this in the original book? If so, damn the Finnish one has been cut into pieces sick

There's no explanation for why Deathverine is hitching a ride on top of Blackbird, and if he did indeed read Cyke's mind or not, in the Finnish book. Do you happen to have scans of the original book?

Btw, didn't Deathverine's sword take out all of the Telepaths with telepathic attack or something?

ExodusCloak

Regarding Emma Frost's Age

Now people unfortunately believe that Emma Frost is around the same age as Sebastian Shaw, Professor Charles Francis Xavier and Magneto due to her being portrayed as one of their peers in terms of power and role during her early appearances. eg She was called an Xavier level telepath in New Mutants, She was White Queen of the Hellfire Club, She ran her own School, she had her own ethos to the Mutant/Human dream and she was/is a multi-billionaire all of this was then reiterated during her years in Generation X etc.. So obviously she had to be there age by default
Even when UXM #151 indirectly stated that she was much younger then Sebastian Shaw people still seem to believe this.

Now recently we have been given an idea of where Emma stands age wise in terms of the other X-Men. Here's some of the recent evidence.

Emma Frost #6
(February 2004)
(Writer): Karl Bollers Artist: Randy Green)

This is High School Emma Frost before she left home. According to the scan near the end of this post from Generation X -1. Emma Frost was 15 when she left home. Emma would be 15 or less in this scan. She see's Xavier's mutants on T.V for the first time. This would actually make her Younger then the Original 4 (Beast, Jean, Cyclops and Angel) and much closer to Iceman's age.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/8702/emmafrost006pg07sb3.th.jpg

New X-Men #138
(July 2003)
(Writer): Grant Morrison Artist: Frank Quitely with Avalon Studios )

Here's Emma Frost stating that she's 27...she has no reason to lie...

A.) There's no one around.
B.) She's in Diamond Form so the Cuckoo's wouldn't be able to hear that telepathically anyway.
C.) There's more proof that supports this.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3607/newxmen13809el9.th.jpg

Deadly Genesis #5
(May 2006)
(Writer): Ed BrubakerArtist: Pete Woods )

Here again, Emma is being recruited to join the X-Men 1.5. All the recruits were alluded to be around the same age which is:

Around Havok's age.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/385/xmdg0610sh5.th.jpg

Again more proof that she's definitely not Xavier's age:

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/5601/xmendeadlygenesis5of6p2fx9.th.jpghttp://img100.imageshack.us/img100/9334/xmendeadlygenesis5of6p3ml7.th.jpg

Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Alternate Universes 2005
(September 2005)
(Writer): eff Christiansen, Mark O'English, Sean McQuaid, Eric J. Moreels, Stuart Vandal, Michael Hoskin, Bill Lentz, Anthony Flamini, and Chris Biggs Artist: Tom Grummett and Morry Hollowell)

Firstly we have to establish that Marvel has a sliding timescale Time slides forward by 10-15 years whereby 15 years ago was the FF4's space flight. The X-Men would be a fairly new team in comparison to the FF4 so at worst lets say the X-Men started 14 years ago but it doesn't make a difference here. To understand more of Marvels sliding timescale read this:

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/1315/altuhb2005streetsamuraifr6.th.jpg

Anyway now that that's been established is this a retcon...in short no:

Here are extracts from Generation X #31(October 1997) and Generation X #34(January 1998). (Credit goes to Aimee from the emmafrostfiles.com for scanning and finding these)

Generation X #31
(October 1997)
(Writer): James Robinson Artist: Chris Bachalo )

The writer is actually mistaken with a small bit in the Gen X #31 scan. Emma is actually stated to be 16 in Gen X -1. That would make her 26 at the moment with Marvel's sliding timescale.
Morrison's run made her 27...so nope it wasn't a retcon. And yes Emma achieved a lot when she was younger.

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/1668/genx31textqo6.th.jpg

Generation X #34
(January 1998)
(Writer): Larry Hama Artist: Steve Harris and Scott Hanna )

Emma Frost is stated to be between 25-30 here.

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/3183/genx34textnv6.th.jpg

Generation X #-1
(July 1997)
(Writer): Scott Lobdell Artist: Chris Bachalo)

Emma's stated to be 16 here when she first encounters the Inner Circle. This isn't her first encounter with the Hellfire Club as the issue alludes that she's been to 2 other parties before. Only this time she doesn't need to use her telepathy to get in. It also states that she left home at the age of 15.(A year ago.)

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/6697/generationx0104dd4.th.jpghttp://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6937/generationx0105ap4.th.jpg

In short Emma is younger then the Original 4 and this isn't a retcon so Grant Morrison was right. At the moment she'd be around 27 and this will most probably remain stagnant due to Marvels sliding timescale.

Raoul

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Regarding Emma Frost's Age

Now people unfortunately believe that Emma Frost is around the same age as Sebastian Shaw, Professor Charles Francis Xavier and Magneto due to her being portrayed as one of their peers in terms of power and role during her early appearances. eg She was called an Xavier level telepath in New Mutants, She was White Queen of the Hellfire Club, She ran her own School, she had her own ethos to the Mutant/Human dream and she was/is a multi-billionaire all of this was then reiterated during her years in Generation X etc.. So obviously she had to be there age by default
Even when UXM #151 indirectly stated that she was much younger then Sebastian Shaw people still seem to believe this.

Now recently we have been given an idea of where Emma stands age wise in terms of the other X-Men. Here's some of the recent evidence.

Emma Frost #6
(February 2004)
(Writer): Karl Bollers Artist: Randy Green)

This is High School Emma Frost before she left home. According to the scan near the end of this post from Generation X -1. Emma Frost was 15 when she left home. Emma would be 15 or less in this scan. She see's Xavier's mutants on T.V for the first time. This would actually make her Younger then the Original 4 (Beast, Jean, Cyclops and Angel) and much closer to Iceman's age.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/8702/emmafrost006pg07sb3.th.jpg

New X-Men #138
(July 2003)
(Writer): Grant Morrison Artist: Frank Quitely with Avalon Studios )

Here's Emma Frost stating that she's 27...she has no reason to lie...

A.) There's no one around.
B.) She's in Diamond Form so the Cuckoo's wouldn't be able to hear that telepathically anyway.
C.) There's more proof that supports this.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3607/newxmen13809el9.th.jpg

Deadly Genesis #5
(May 2006)
(Writer): Ed BrubakerArtist: Pete Woods )

Here again, Emma is being recruited to join the X-Men 1.5. All the recruits were alluded to be around the same age which is:

Around Havok's age.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/385/xmdg0610sh5.th.jpg

Again more proof that she's definitely not Xavier's age:

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/5601/xmendeadlygenesis5of6p2fx9.th.jpghttp://img100.imageshack.us/img100/9334/xmendeadlygenesis5of6p3ml7.th.jpg

Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Alternate Universes 2005
(September 2005)
(Writer): eff Christiansen, Mark O'English, Sean McQuaid, Eric J. Moreels, Stuart Vandal, Michael Hoskin, Bill Lentz, Anthony Flamini, and Chris Biggs Artist: Tom Grummett and Morry Hollowell)

Firstly we have to establish that Marvel has a sliding timescale Time slides forward by 10-15 years whereby 15 years ago was the FF4's space flight. The X-Men would be a fairly new team in comparison to the FF4 so at worst lets say the X-Men started 14 years ago but it doesn't make a difference here. To understand more of Marvels sliding timescale read this:

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/1315/altuhb2005streetsamuraifr6.th.jpg

Anyway now that that's been established is this a retcon...in short no:

Here are extracts from Generation X #31(October 1997) and Generation X #34(January 1998). (Credit goes to Aimee from the emmafrostfiles.com for scanning and finding these)

Generation X #31
(October 1997)
(Writer): James Robinson Artist: Chris Bachalo )

The writer is actually mistaken with a small bit in the Gen X #31 scan. Emma is actually stated to be 16 in Gen X -1. That would make her 26 at the moment with Marvel's sliding timescale.
Morrison's run made her 27...so nope it wasn't a retcon. And yes Emma achieved a lot when she was younger.

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/1668/genx31textqo6.th.jpg

Generation X #34
(January 1998)
(Writer): Larry Hama Artist: Steve Harris and Scott Hanna )

Emma Frost is stated to be between 25-30 here.

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/3183/genx34textnv6.th.jpg

Generation X #-1
(July 1997)
(Writer): Scott Lobdell Artist: Chris Bachalo)

Emma's stated to be 16 here when she first encounters the Inner Circle. This isn't her first encounter with the Hellfire Club as the issue alludes that she's been to 2 other parties before. Only this time she doesn't need to use her telepathy to get in. It also states that she left home at the age of 15.(A year ago.)

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/6697/generationx0104dd4.th.jpghttp://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6937/generationx0105ap4.th.jpg

In short Emma is younger then the Original 4 and this isn't a retcon so Grant Morrison was right. At the moment she'd be around 27 and this will most probably remain stagnant due to Marvels sliding timescale.

nice, but who in their right mind thought she was xavier's age?

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by Raoul
nice, but who in their right mind thought she was xavier's age?

Not on this board...well someone actually did on this board but they don't use KMC anymore. Their evidence being that she made an off hand comment calling Storm, Wolverine no expression

id369

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

BTW Cyclops has seen a Celestial before right? In X-Factor?

Yup...this means he s a SKRULL!!!!!! shifty

Raoul

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Not on this board...well someone actually did on this board but they don't use KMC anymore. Their evidence being that she made an off hand comment calling Storm, Wolverine no expression

and Colossus "Young People" in her first appearance when conversing with that fossil Leland. Then later on Claremont refers to her as "still youthful" after she was upset that she was stuck in Storms body...clearly that comment was down to either Claremonts inconsistency or Emma's arrogant attitude.

BTW Cyclops has seen a Celestial before right? In X-Factor?

ah... yeah, scott loves to chase those grannies... no expression

he's had his mind messed with by pretty much every telepath he's ever trusted, he's bound to have a few gaps in his memory... stick out tongue

TricksterPriest

Originally posted by Soljer
Where is that explanation provided in-canon?

Apparently DOTNG 7, judging by the source and infinity man. shifty

Soljer

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Apparently DOTNG 7, judging by the source and infinity man. shifty

False.

TricksterPriest

duryes Expect more wanking from Starlin.

King_Mungi

Originally posted by Soljer
False.

thumb up

Bentley

I bump the question about the cannon document that states how the OE works/fails on people.

It would be nice to put and end to the myth that Thor has no speed.

grey fox

Originally posted by Bentley
I bump the question about the cannon document that states how the OE works/fails on people.

It would be nice to put and end to the myth that Thor has no speed.

It isn't a myth, he just doesn't have many on-panel speedfeats that can't be taken as hyperbole .

Bentley

*Waiting for Digi to show up.*

King_Mungi

Originally posted by Bentley
I bump the question about the cannon document that states how the OE works/fails on people.

Darkseid can control how powerful his OE is, so I guess it's up to him who he kills. As the OE has worked and incinerated people stronger then Superman

1. http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/New_Gods_v1_11_08.jpg

Galan007

Don't know if this has been asked...

Has Lobo ever lifted a box of some sort that = a Universe?

starlock

This thread deserves a bump..... beer

leonidas

FP Galactus has been shown in marvel and is equal to eternity.

RUBBISH

pure speculation.

mythbusted. smile

TricksterPriest

Originally posted by Galan007
Don't know if this has been asked...

Has Lobo ever lifted a box of some sort that = a Universe?

It's in his respect thread somewhere. It's Lobo, so take it how you will. srug

Endless Mike

Originally posted by grey fox
It isn't a myth, he just doesn't have many on-panel speedfeats that can't be taken as hyperbole .

I remember that he was able to react to and fight Balder at lightspeed

Also I doubt it was hyperbole since he specifically figured out it was Balder by the fact that he could move so fast, and commented on how rare it was

Mr. Slippyfist

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I remember that he was able to react to and fight Balder at lightspeed

Also I doubt it was hyperbole since he specifically figured out it was Balder by the fact that he could move so fast, and commented on how rare it was Issue?

grey fox

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
It's in his respect thread somewhere. It's Lobo, so take it how you will. srug

...I agree with Trick here.

Lobo is a gag character, his actions are meant to over-the-top and silly to entertain the audience (much like Deadpool) , thus i'd take whatever Lobo does with a pinch of salt and a dash of common sense.

leonidas

DigiMark007

Mythbuster

Topic: The Doctor and Telepathy

Is the Doctor vulnerable to psionics?

The Doctor has some very good, and also inexplicably bad, telepathic showings. I'm going to post them all with commentary and make some sense of it all...because it has a rational explanation but needs to be looked at in-depth first.

The Good

I'll be showing anything that could be considered telepathic skill, either specifically stated or implied.

First off, The Doctor retains memories, powers, and experiences from all past Doctors. This is corroborated by numerous scans, and I have proven it elsewhere. I'll be showing instances that include 3 different Doctors, and all are valid as commentary on the single character that is "The Doctor."

The evil Doctor assaults Engineer with corpses of those she has loved.
http://img456.imageshack.us/my.php?image=100lu.jpg
...without having stated it specifically, a telepathic intrusion would be required to glean such information about Angie.

Jeroen telepathically floods a man with every experience of the entire human race. The last panel also shows the dialogue in a floating speech bubble, which implies telepathic thought. Even if that isn't the case, the telepathic assault is formidable.
http://img282.imageshack.us/my.php?image=185kg.jpg

Jeroen cuts off a telepath who had controlled about 70% of the world's population telepathically (according to the Authority's estimates).
http://img67.imageshack.us/my.php?image=210sr.jpg
...showing that he can counter telepathic power as well.

This is Habib now. Jackson King, a mid-level telepath, takes over Jenny Quantum in this scan. The implication in his words is that everyone else on the team had mental resistances formidable enough to counter him.
http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=n2da7.jpg
...regardless, if he had been able to take over Habib, or hinder him telepathically in some way, he clearly would have, since he had no hesitation in comandeering Jenny and the two of them were easily the most powerful in the battle and thus the biggest threats to King.

Initial Conclusions
The Authority regularly use Angie's nanobot radio-telepathy to communicate, so Doctor isn't called upon to use his telepathic skill often or in mundane ways. But all of these things show formidable tp skill, and the number of instances suggests that it's not a fluke or bad writing. This is also consistent with his power set, which is, in a nutshell, to think of something and have it happen (whether by matter manip, time manip, or othermeans).

....

The Bad

This is the first instance of Doctor's power being cut off. Since he regains it when the big guy loses his concentration, the most logical conclusion is that it's some sort of telepathic block.
http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=n3ep9.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=n4bx2.jpg
...also interesting is that once he regains his powers, he specifically states that he telepathically contacted the Authority to inform them of the danger. So he has tp powers apparently but still got cut off.

The second instance is against Henry Bendix, who had Jackson King's telepathic powers. It is particularly odd, because this is the same power set that Habib was said to be immune to in the earlier scan.
http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=n3oe2.jpg
http://img241.imageshack.us/my.php?image=n4mt7.jpg
...Bendix was said to be using King's powers better than King himself, so we can assume slightly greater telepathic power. But it still pales in comparison to some of the early feats, specifically the telepath he casually negated who had taken over most of the planet.

...

Conclusions

1. The bad showings aren't flukes, and show a legitimate weakness. I'll get to why in a second.

2. But the Doctor does have telepathic powers. Multiple showings to this affect prove this.

3. In the first bad showing, Doctor was cut off from his power before he realized there was a telepath in the area, or even before he was formally attacked. In the Bendix scan, Bendix makes the point that Habib can make any thought a reality but he cut off the part of his brain that controls memory. The implication is that if Habib could think of something, Bendix would be screwed.

4. Thus, I believe the explanation is that Habib/Jeroen simply hadn't thought the right thought to counter such an attack in either case. The Doctor is a normal human until he thinks of something and activates his powers. This is true physically, and many people exploit this weakness for "speedblitz ftw" arguments in the vs. forum when a fast character is facing the Doctor and doesn't have as much power as him otherwise. It only makes sense that the same holds true telepathically.

5. The only other possible explanation is lazy and inconsistent writing. I don't believe that to be the case, because both good and bad telepathic showings have happened more than once now. And my explanation also makes sense given Doctor's powers and how they work. My explanation matches with all the data and provides an elegant solution (imo). If anyone has other thoughts, or comments/questions, feel free to speak them.

So...myth busted? Not exactly, but sorta. He's vulnerable in certain situations, but certainly not when he's had time to prep for a telepath.

Soljer

Originally posted by DigiMark007
*snip*

thumb up

Great post.

DigiMark007

Thanks.

...now if I could remember what I was going to do in this thread regarding Spidey, I'd be set.

Raoul

Myth: That Superman was at his fullest while fighting Wonder Woman in Sacrifice...

Alright, so, for a while on KMC, there has been the perception that Wonder Woman held her own against a fully committed, ready to kill her Superman in issue 219 of her last series, and that it was an incredibly achievement for Diana. Now, while lasting any amount of time against a being such as Superman is undoubtedly impressive, I am here now to say that the power Superman wielded in that battle has been overstated... And i have what i believe to be definitive PROOF.

It all starts in Adventures of Superman 642, where we find out that under the influence of Maxwell Lord's telepathic power, Superman has been made to see incredibly traumatic images of loved ones being killed by his most dangerous enemies. Maxwell Lord had also recently murdered Ted Kord (Blue Beetle), and had taken control of the Brother Eye satellite. Lord uses the images of the likes of Brainiac, Darkseid, Doomsday and Ruin to scar Superman, making him watch them butcher those he cares most about in the world. With that rage boiling over, Lord makes Superman believe that one of his allies, Bruce Wayne, is one such enemy, and Superman attacks his close friend, almost killing him. Here's the scan:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/AOS642-clarkvbruce.jpg

Batman survives (a supposedly full on attack from Superman), and with help from the Martian Manhunter, Superman and the rest of the JLA realise that Maxwell Lord is the one causing Clark to see these horrible images. After escaping the JLA's attempts to put him into protective custody, Clark heads for Lord's location, quickly followed by Wonder Woman.

When the princess arrives, however, she finds that Lord has once again taken control of the Man of Steel. Lord begins to describe how he has taken control of Clark, and has just made him watch, within his mind, Doomsday murdering his beloved Lois Lane. This fight takes place in Wonder Woman 219.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221903.jpg

Lord then describes how its taken YEARS for him to achieve this much control over Superman. Not days, weeks, or months, YEARS.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221904.jpg

Then, Lord sets the heartbroken, enraged Superman against Wonder Woman, and they fight, Wonder Woman convinced Clark is holding nothing back, as he's just watched Doomsday murder his wife:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221905.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221906.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221907.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221908.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221909.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221910.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221911.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221912.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221913.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221914.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221915.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221916.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221917.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221918.jpg

With Clark stunned, Diana uses what little time she has, and seeing no other alternative, kills Maxwell Lord, freeing Superman from his control. What happens next? Infinite Crisis, Alexander Luthor and Superboy Prime attempting to remake the universe as they see fit.

Over a year passes, before Booster Gold, still saddened by the loss of his best friend Blue Beetle, decides to change history, and rescue Beetle from the clutches of Maxwell Lord. He succeeds (Booster Gold 6), but changes history, changing it to the effect that Lord isn't killed by Wonder Woman, and using Superman as his puppet (along with an army of omacs), conquers the planet.

We do learn, now, that even with his powers honed over many years, that no matter how hard he tries, he is unable to make Superman kill for him (Booster Gold 8).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/BG8MaxcantmakeClarkKill.jpg

Of course, Lord isn't the first being that has attempted to coerce the Man of Steel into committing dirty deeds, there have been many more. One thing, however, remains constant. Superman's ability to resist and fight against the mental onslaught he is under...

Batman 612: Under Poison Ivy's control, Superman is forced to attack the Batman. Several times during the battle, Batman talks about how Superman is still fighting Ivy's control, and holds back even though his own body betrays him.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/Batman612pg08.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/Batman612pg09.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/Batman612pg10.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/Batman612pg11.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/Batman612pg12.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/Batman612pg13.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/Batman612pg14.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/Batman612pg15.jpg

Other examples:

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/2500/actioncomics652p18nn4.th.jpghttp://img514.imageshack.us/img514/5011/actioncomics652p19yf4.th.jpg

He resists Maximas psi-bolts in this one. Sorry its hard to read.

http://img118.imageshack.us/my.php?image=424rf.jpg

Same with this one.

http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2077lm.png

Mageddon. Batman annoyed him. He broke Mags control.

http://img279.imageshack.us/img279/6517/supesgeddon6ho.th.jpg

Dominus.

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/4250/torquasmvo4po.th.jpg

Drives another mind controller out of his head.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Superman/Supesbreakinmindcont.jpg

MM gets pwned.

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/2348/week151999action75308kq9.th.jpghttp://img508.imageshack.us/img508/3256/week151999action75309jo3.th.jpg

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/5261/supersting09vl6.th.jpg

http://i84.imagethrust.com/images/5pRN/view-image/martianmanhunter-20-p-18.html

Not only resists a mental probe, but reverses it back on its users, seeing their thoughts:

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/supermanmentalresistance.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/supermanmentalresistance1.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/supermanmentalresistance2.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/supermanmentalresistance3.jpg

It took multiple telepaths to subdue him with great difficulty...some died in his head.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/supermanmentalresistance6.jpg

He was still toying with them, and destroyed what was left with internal HV.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=10198701

Here he is resisting MAGICAL telepathic attack from Arion, and overcoming it through sheer force of will:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/02-03.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/05.jpg

and these are just some examples, they aren't even the entirety...

So, given Superman's incredibly impressive ability to combat mental control, and the ON PANEL proof that Maxwell Lord couldn't make him kill, the chance that he was actually at his fullest and actively trying to kill Diana is slim to none.

Myth. Busted.

--------------------------------------------

Many thanks to Avlon, Soljer and Bada for their input and assistance in putting this together...

Soljer

for Paul.

Bentley

So that Balder vs Thor battle mentioned earlier doesn't exist or it does?

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Raoul
So, given Superman's incredibly impressive ability to combat mental control, and the ON PANEL proof that Maxwell Lord couldn't make him kill, the chance that he was actually at his fullest and actively trying to kill Diana is slim to none.I just found this thread ironically. I wasn't even looking for it. I was looking for Secret Invasion #3 discussions since Newsarama is down. What a great issue! I almost never venture outside the vs forum here in KMC. And I don't mean to spark a debate here, but I think there are several obvious flaws in your reasoning, Raoul:

1) In 'Countdown to Infinite Crisis,' Maxwell Lord positively states that he could get Superman to kill for him. Up until his death, he never retracts that statement. To use a divergent future timeline's Maxwell Lord as evidence lends credence to your theory. But it's just about arguable. Arguable. Not concrete. We all know alternate universes and divergent timelines are very rarely used as on-panel proof for or against New Earth or 616 Earth stuff. There is no on-panel evidence in proper history which suggests that Maxwell Lord didn't have complete control over Superman. In fact, the events in 'Sacrifice' support that he does and he supports it with his own words under the Lasso of Truth.

2) Superman has had his mind taken over in several different ways. By Circe (magic), by Dracula (hypnosis) and by Eclipso (possession), off the top of my head. He did not fight his way out of any of these. Circe's spell was broken by Wonder Woman, Dracula's hypnosis ended when he bit Superman and inadvertently killed himself and Spectre, at the behest of Shazam, separated Eclipso from Superman. These are all relatively recent. And Maxwell Lord's mental control was different from my examples and your examples in three fundamental ways. It was: 1) subtle; 2) multi-layered; and 3) built up over years. Subtlety is quite the key here. Because in all of your examples, except for Poison Ivy arguably, Superman knew he was being assaulted mentally and actively had a chance to assert his will against the manipulations. He doesn't get that benefit here. So how much more potent is Lord's feat than the examples you and I posted? Well, one simple and direct indication of its potency was Martian Manhunter's utter inability to reverse it.

3) First off, Superman killed both DOS Doomsday and H/P Doomsday. So, if Superman is seeing Doomsday, then yes... his moral stance wouldn't be above trying to kill him. And that was the case here. But just in case you're arguing what I think you're arguing... are you saying that if Superman is not actively trying to kill someone, he isn't actually fighting at his fullest? Which would kinda make sense except for the obvious flaw. As you state, Superman never really tries to kill anybody. Yet, I positively remember you using Superman's fight with Manchester Black as an example of a full-on Superman. But there, he wasn't trying to kill them either. Not in the slightest. So Superman does not need to be actively trying to kill someone in order to fight at his fullest. But if there was anybody who we would try to kill... who would it be most likely? You got it. Doomsday. Especially one that just ripped Lois apart.

Your arguments are reasonable to me. But you: 1) make liberal use of a divergent future timeline's events; 2) do not recognize how mind control has worked in the past and how different Lord's control was in its subtlety; and 3) ignored that Superman has killed Doomsday and doesn't even need to actively kill to fight at his fullest. I do not believe your arguments are conclusive. I continue to believe that Superman was fighting at his fullest in 'Sacrifice.'

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Bentley
So that Balder vs Thor battle mentioned earlier doesn't exist or it does? It does. But it's very simple. Thor flings a pie at Balder (I ain't making that up), Balder blocks it with his shield. Thor exclaims that his parry blocked it at the speed of light. He goes on to lament that Balder's speed severely outmatches his own and then resorts to raw power to subdue Balder:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1986_369_05.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1986_369_06.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1986_369_07.jpg

By the way. Cool thread. I like the idea. If I wanted to throw my two cents here and there on some stuff, would that be ok? Or should I submit them to someone?

Raoul

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
1) In 'Countdown to Infinite Crisis,' Maxwell Lord positively states that he could get Superman to kill for him. Up until his death, he never retracts that statement. To use a divergent future timeline's Maxwell Lord as evidence lends credence to your theory. But it's just about arguable. Arguable. Not concrete. We all know alternate universes and divergent timelines are very rarely used as on-panel proof for or against New Earth or 616 Earth stuff. There is no on-panel evidence in proper history which suggests that Maxwell Lord didn't have complete control over Superman. In fact, the events in 'Sacrifice' support that he does and he supports it with his own words under the Lasso of Truth.

if i may:

lord SAYING he can do something, and actually doing it, are two very different things... even if he believes he has control over clark, that doesnt neccessarily mean that he does...

we also know that the timeline only diverged after ted wasnt killed, and given how short a time afterwards diana did fight clark, there is no evidence to suggest that lord or clark were any different...

and lord also claims that he has control in booster gold, yet he still can't make clark kill...

there's also the point that bruce survived, and clark had several opportunities to kill diana, and didn't.

all recent, yes, but he has just as many recent examples of breaking or fighting mental control... dracula, eclipso and circe were all magic, first of all, which adds a HUGELY important factor...

clark knew before he fought diana that lord was controlling his actions, though...

clark only killed DOS doomsday as a last resort, and H/P?

you don't think thats stretching, slightly? no, superman doesnt need to kill if he doesnt want to, but the guy is so anti-death that he only uses it as an absolute last resort... death as a concept actually disturbs the guy (birthright), and it is well within clark's character not to kill any sentient life form no matter what they had done to him...

a divergent timeline with negligible passage of time before clark fights diana...

yet he knew lord was in his head before fighting diana... and the amount of times he's beaten mind control far outnumber the amount of times he's been beaten by it...

i didn't ignore, anything, imo, but if you disagree, thats fine... doesnt make me any less right, imo...

Juntai

A good reference to Lord saying he can make Superman kill but being unable to do so is also in Booster Gold, where Booster messed up time and Lord actually won, but he was still unable to make Superman kill, even with more time and it frustrated him greatly.

edit;
nevermind its already referenced.

haha @ not reading thread.

Soljer

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

By the way. Cool thread. I like the idea. If I wanted to throw my two cents here and there on some stuff, would that be ok? Or should I submit them to someone?

You just post 'em.

OneDumbG0

Like I said, it's a reasonable opinion. But a couple of last comments for my part.

1) Superman may have had prior knowledge that Lord was controlling his perceptions. But in his fight against Diana, there is no evidence that Superman was actively thinking of Lord's mental manipulation. To assume that he was actively thinking, "Oh no. Lord might be making me see this. I have to fight it." during his fight with Wonder Woman is speculative at best. Nothing on-panel indicates that. Everything on-panel, from Lord's comments to Superman's utterances indicates that he's completely focused on seeing Lois' death and killing Doomsday. Lord makes him see and think what he wants him to see and think.

But I acknowledge the possibility that Superman may have thought about Lord. But remember, he was aware of Lord's manipulation in the prior JLA fight on the satellite and that awareness changed nothing. Superman didn't even try thinking about fighting mental manipulation then. Lord made Superman think that the JLA were being controlled by Lord and it didn't even occur to him that he should question himself. This is the power of Lord's subtlety and is vastly distinguishable from the examples you and I listed.

2) You may believe that the divergent timeline only had a negligible passage of time and Clark and Lord weren't any different, but more than one year had actually passed. Booster and Beetle travelled back to what they believed was the present, and going by the passage of time using events as benchmarks, 'Countdown to Infinite Crisis' events passed, 'One Year Later' came and went and most of 'Countdown to Final Crisis' came and went. I'd say near two years had passed. Who knows what occurred during those two years? Jurgens practically overplays how drastically saving Blue Beetle has caused this timeline to diverge. We don't even know that Superman fought Wonder Woman in a 'Sacrifice'-style fight in this divergent future timeline. Additionally, it seems Maxwell is just trying to overtly force Superman to kill people by controlling his motor functions, rather than manipulating what he sees and tricking him into killing people. That's completely different from his technique throughout 'Sacrifice.' So yeah, Lord and Superman seem pretty different there.

But I do agree that there is the possibility that proper New Earth Maxwell Lord could simply have believed he had control and yet, may actually not have. I just don't see using this divergent future timeline as a proper basis for overturning a literal 'Sacrifice' interpretation. It asks for too many allowances for me to swallow as concrete proof and generally, I just chafe at alternate universes or divergent future timelines in general.

3) And again, I don't think a killing intent is required for a depiction of a full-on Superman anyway. Most of us believe that Superman can go all-out without wanting to kill. Whether or not Superman was actively trying to kill Diana in 'Sacrifice' is a moot point when assessing how serious he was about the fight. I'm still going with the easy, on-panel literal interpretation of 'Sacrifice.' Superman was very much more likely fighting at his fullest. He'd have to, if he's thinking he's fighting Doomsday. He's not foolish enough to hold back against him.

EDIT: Oh, another thing about Booster Gold's foray into an divergent future timeline. In Booster Gold #9, it states that Brother Eye cannot assimilate Fourth World tech. That's why they keep Mister Miracle alive. But we've seen Brother Eye do that in 'Countdown to Final Crisis,' when he assimilates the entirety of Apokolips. So yeah, another reason why this divergent timeline shouldn't be reliable evidence against proper New Earth history. They get crap wrong all the time.

Erik-Lensherr

I also disagree with Raoul's point of view ..

Eel O'Brian

I recall a JLA story arc (from 2004ish, I think), where a vampire was only able to maintain control over Superman via hypnosis because he was magical.

Raoul

ODG, i could reply to you, but it'd be more out of me wanting to be polite, than actually engaging in debate... not that i don't respect your opinion, but i don't see anyone changing my mind, and i doubt you do either...

agree to disagree?

OneDumbG0

Hey, like I said before. Your opinion is reasonable. I just prefer mine. Agree to disagree it is!

Raoul

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Hey, like I said before. Your opinion is reasonable. I just prefer mine. Agree to disagree it is!

thank god for that...

Martian_mind

Originally posted by Eel O'Brian
I recall a JLA story arc (from 2004ish, I think), where a vampire was only able to maintain control over Superman via hypnosis because he was magical.

Actually,a little girl mindraped him telepathically,and then the vampire bit him.....

Eel O'Brian

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Actually,a little girl mindraped him telepathically,and then the vampire bit him..... Actually, it was only because the vampire had magically heightened her abilities, and she said she wouldn't have been able to keep control unless the magical head Vamp took over the mental control...

Martian_mind

Originally posted by Eel O'Brian
Actually, it was only because the vampire had magically heightened her abilities, and she said she wouldn't have been able to keep control unless the magical head Vamp took over the mental control...

No he didn't,he was astonished she could do it,and no mention was made that Supes could have broken it....

Eel O'Brian

Originally posted by Martian_mind
No he didn't,he was astonished she could do it,and no mention was made that Supes could have broken it.... He was astonished she could do it, but because he didn't realize how powerful she'd become after he had boosted her, along with all the others, power set.

And iirc, she says she didn't know if she could maintain it, but that he took over with his hypnosis anyways.

And he was certainly taking control. And they continuously mentioned that it was all only possible because of Superman's "unique vulnerability to magic".

Martian_mind

Originally posted by Eel O'Brian
He was astonished she could do it, but because he didn't realize how powerful she'd become after he had boosted her, along with all the others, power set.

And iirc, she says she didn't know if she could maintain it, but that he took over with his hypnosis anyways.

And he was certainly taking control. And they continuously mentioned that it was all only possible because of Superman's "unique vulnerability to magic".

I'm looking at the comic,no mention is made of him boosting her,at all.

She specifically says that she can maintain it...

They mentioned that he could be bitten because of the vulnerability...

Are yoiu talking about the JLA arc with the Vampire called Crucifer?cause I'm looking at it and none of this is mentioned.

Eel O'Brian

Originally posted by Martian_mind
I'm looking at the comic,no mention is made of him boosting her,at all.

She specifically says that she can maintain it...

They mentioned that he could be bitten because of the vulnerability...

Are yoiu talking about the JLA arc with the Vampire called Crucifer?cause I'm looking at it and none of this is mentioned. They all follow Crucifer because he found them when they possessed small latent telepathic (or other) powers, and he boosts them to new heights. It's his "plan".

As for the comments she makes, I'll check later.

And the hypnosis is a magical connection made after he sucks Supes blood...

Martian_mind

Originally posted by Eel O'Brian
They all follow Crucifer because he found them when they possessed small latent telepathic (or other) powers, and he boosts them to new heights. It's his "plan".

As for the comments she makes, I'll check later.

And the hypnosis is a magical connection made after he sucks Supes blood...

Those are the random disciples at the end,not girl in question,who did it all herself.

I already said the vampire bit him....

The little girl at the start did it all herself under her own power.

Eel O'Brian

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Those are the random disciples at the end,not girl in question,who did it all herself.

I already said the vampire bit him....

The little girl at the start did it all herself under her own power. Look, don't get your panties in a twist just because Crucifer could control Superman and Angel can't even bite him.

And I'm still right.

Martian_mind

Originally posted by Eel O'Brian
Look, don't get your panties in a twist just because Crucifer could control Superman and Angel can't even bite him.

And I'm still right.

There's no shame in being wrong Smurf,just bow out quietly and leave the discussion to the adults.

Badabing

Just thought I'd throw this in. Proof that Superman, Flash, Wonder Woman, and Martian Manhunter move faster than thought. Speed blitz for rell.
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/Untitled-Scanned-02-29.jpg

Martian_mind

Actually,that was happening because Flash was amping the other three....

noob. dur

Badabing

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Actually,that was happening because Flash was amping the other three....

noob. dur Doesn't change the point that all 4 can move faster than thought. Flash phased them to discuss a plan without setting off alerts since he's the only one who can share speed.

Watch who you Dur, son. uhuh
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/bigdurimagera2.png

Martian_mind

Originally posted by Badabing
Doesn't change the point that all 4 can move faster than thought. Flash phased them to discuss a plan without setting off alerts since he's the only one who can share speed.

Watch who you Dur, son. uhuh
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/bigdurimagera2.png

Posting a scan that in no way proves the point warranted the Dur mate.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/bigdurimagera2.png

Badabing

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Posting a scan that in no way proves the point warranted the Dur mate.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/bigdurimagera2.png My point is that it's said on panel they move faster than thought.

DigiMark007

That giant dur needs to go.

I'm about a day away from banning it from my forums.

crackers

Soljer

Originally posted by Badabing
My point is that it's said on panel they move faster than thought.

Multiple times, in multiple places. thumb up

Badabing

Originally posted by Badabing
Just thought I'd throw this in. Proof that Superman, Flash, Wonder Woman, and Martian Manhunter move faster than thought. Speed blitz for rell.
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/Untitled-Scanned-02-29.jpg Found a few more from my archives.
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/Untitled-Scanned-02-31.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/Untitled-Scanned-03-27.jpg
Originally posted by DigiMark007
That giant dur needs to go.

I'm about a day away from banning it from my forums.

crackers For rell?! omg_smilieOriginally posted by Soljer
Multiple times, in multiple places. thumb up

Bad Ash231

Originally posted by DigiMark007
adminpower

crackers

Raoul

Originally posted by Soljer
Multiple times, in multiple places. thumb up

.

thats what she said...

WrathfulDwarf

I got a WWH vs Flash myth for you guys to investigate.

This is courtesy of a fanboy.

Busted or Confirmed?

The Pict

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I got a WWH vs Flash myth for you guys to investigate.

This is courtesy of a fanboy.

Busted or Confirmed?

crylaugh Oh jeez.....seriously who said that!!?

WrathfulDwarf

Originally posted by The Pict
crylaugh Oh jeez.....seriously who said that!!?

It's from a forum outside of KMC. Topic Hulk vs Speed. After 45 pages they still think Hulk thunderclaps Flash...and wins.

The Pict

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
It's from a forum outside of KMC. Topic Hulk vs Speed. After 45 pages they still think Hulk thunderclaps Flash...and wins.

Oh man, I'm not even too sure that FOB is that bad. Makes me wonder if they even read comics or are just there for laughs.

fangirl101

Originally posted by Raoul
Myth: That Superman was at his fullest while fighting Wonder Woman in Sacrifice...

Alright, so, for a while on KMC, there has been the perception that Wonder Woman held her own against a fully committed, ready to kill her Superman in issue 219 of her last series, and that it was an incredibly achievement for Diana. Now, while lasting any amount of time against a being such as Superman is undoubtedly impressive, I am here now to say that the power Superman wielded in that battle has been overstated... And i have what i believe to be definitive PROOF.

It all starts in Adventures of Superman 642, where we find out that under the influence of Maxwell Lord's telepathic power, Superman has been made to see incredibly traumatic images of loved ones being killed by his most dangerous enemies. Maxwell Lord had also recently murdered Ted Kord (Blue Beetle), and had taken control of the Brother Eye satellite. Lord uses the images of the likes of Brainiac, Darkseid, Doomsday and Ruin to scar Superman, making him watch them butcher those he cares most about in the world. With that rage boiling over, Lord makes Superman believe that one of his allies, Bruce Wayne, is one such enemy, and Superman attacks his close friend, almost killing him. Here's the scan:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/AOS642-clarkvbruce.jpg

Batman survives (a supposedly full on attack from Superman), and with help from the Martian Manhunter, Superman and the rest of the JLA realise that Maxwell Lord is the one causing Clark to see these horrible images. After escaping the JLA's attempts to put him into protective custody, Clark heads for Lord's location, quickly followed by Wonder Woman.

When the princess arrives, however, she finds that Lord has once again taken control of the Man of Steel. Lord begins to describe how he has taken control of Clark, and has just made him watch, within his mind, Doomsday murdering his beloved Lois Lane. This fight takes place in Wonder Woman 219.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221903.jpg

Lord then describes how its taken YEARS for him to achieve this much control over Superman. Not days, weeks, or months, YEARS.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221904.jpg

Then, Lord sets the heartbroken, enraged Superman against Wonder Woman, and they fight, Wonder Woman convinced Clark is holding nothing back, as he's just watched Doomsday murder his wife:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221905.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221906.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221907.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221908.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221909.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221910.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221911.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221912.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221913.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221914.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221915.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221916.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221917.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/WonderWomanv221918.jpg

With Clark stunned, Diana uses what little time she has, and seeing no other alternative, kills Maxwell Lord, freeing Superman from his control. What happens next? Infinite Crisis, Alexander Luthor and Superboy Prime attempting to remake the universe as they see fit.

Over a year passes, before Booster Gold, still saddened by the loss of his best friend Blue Beetle, decides to change history, and rescue Beetle from the clutches of Maxwell Lord. He succeeds (Booster Gold 6), but changes history, changing it to the effect that Lord isn't killed by Wonder Woman, and using Superman as his puppet (along with an army of omacs), conquers the planet.

We do learn, now, that even with his powers honed over many years, that no matter how hard he tries, he is unable to make Superman kill for him (Booster Gold 8).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/BG8MaxcantmakeClarkKill.jpg

Of course, Lord isn't the first being that has attempted to coerce the Man of Steel into committing dirty deeds, there have been many more. One thing, however, remains constant. Superman's ability to resist and fight against the mental onslaught he is under...

Batman 612: Under Poison Ivy's control, Superman is forced to attack the Batman. Several times during the battle, Batman talks about how Superman is still fighting Ivy's control, and holds back even though his own body betrays him.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/Batman612pg08.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/Batman612pg09.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/Batman612pg10.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/Batman612pg11.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/Batman612pg12.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/Batman612pg13.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/Batman612pg14.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/Batman612pg15.jpg

Other examples:

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/2500/actioncomics652p18nn4.th.jpghttp://img514.imageshack.us/img514/5011/actioncomics652p19yf4.th.jpg

He resists Maximas psi-bolts in this one. Sorry its hard to read.

http://img118.imageshack.us/my.php?image=424rf.jpg

Same with this one.

http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2077lm.png

Mageddon. Batman annoyed him. He broke Mags control.

http://img279.imageshack.us/img279/6517/supesgeddon6ho.th.jpg

Dominus.

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/4250/torquasmvo4po.th.jpg

Drives another mind controller out of his head.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Superman/Supesbreakinmindcont.jpg

MM gets pwned.

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/2348/week151999action75308kq9.th.jpghttp://img508.imageshack.us/img508/3256/week151999action75309jo3.th.jpg

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/5261/supersting09vl6.th.jpg

http://i84.imagethrust.com/images/5pRN/view-image/martianmanhunter-20-p-18.html

Not only resists a mental probe, but reverses it back on its users, seeing their thoughts:

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/supermanmentalresistance.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/supermanmentalresistance1.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/supermanmentalresistance2.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/supermanmentalresistance3.jpg

It took multiple telepaths to subdue him with great difficulty...some died in his head.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/supermanmentalresistance6.jpg

He was still toying with them, and destroyed what was left with internal HV.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=10198701

Here he is resisting MAGICAL telepathic attack from Arion, and overcoming it through sheer force of will:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/02-03.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/05.jpg

and these are just some examples, they aren't even the entirety...

So, given Superman's incredibly impressive ability to combat mental control, and the ON PANEL proof that Maxwell Lord couldn't make him kill, the chance that he was actually at his fullest and actively trying to kill Diana is slim to none.

Myth. Busted.

--------------------------------------------

Many thanks to Avlon, Soljer and Bada for their input and assistance in putting this together... I don't agree with this at all. you know why? Becuase punching someone from the sun to the earth at faster than 8 times light speed is a killing blow. Also trying to drag them into the sun is a killing strat. Myth busted revoked.

Takion

This is an awesome thread, hopefully I'll contribute soon.

Avlon

Originally posted by fangirl101
I don't agree with this at all. you know why? Becuase punching someone from the sun to the earth at faster than 8 times light speed is a killing blow. Also trying to drag them into the sun is a killing strat. Myth busted revoked.

If he wanted to kill her, he could have just tossed her say...the other way...right into the sun itself...

Myth busted.

Juntai

Originally posted by Avlon
If he wanted to kill her, he could have just tossed her say...the other way...right into the sun itself...

Myth busted. Also noting the fact once again, that Max said he couldn't make Superman kill no matter how hard he tried.

Superherovandal

Originally posted by Juntai
Also noting the fact once again, that Max said he couldn't make Superman kill no matter how hard he tried. Yeah thats from Booster Gold correct?

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Juntai
Also noting the fact once again, that Max said he couldn't make Superman kill no matter how hard he tried. Also noting the fact once again, that Max also held Mr. Miracle captive because Brother Eye couldn't deal with New Gods Tech... yet, Brother Eye assimilated the entirety of Apokolips in Countdown. So yeah. Alternate universes sometimes get it wrong. Which is why we don't rely on them as accurate representations of what would happen in proper reality.

Endless Mike

Couldn't Brother Eye have gotten more advanced/smarter/more powerful since then?

Juntai

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Also noting the fact once again, that Max also held Mr. Miracle captive because Brother Eye couldn't deal with New Gods Tech... yet, Brother Eye assimilated the entirety of Apokolips in Countdown. So yeah. Alternate universes sometimes get it wrong. Which is why we don't rely on them as accurate representations of what would happen in proper reality. It's been something consistant in Superman's character, however, that even those mind controlling him, can't make him take a life.

We even have a near match to the Max Lord incident...Manchester Black tried the same thing as Max Lord, and Superman didn't kill anyone then either. And Superman saw Lois die in that equation too.

In Hush, Poison Ivy tried to make Superman kill, and simply said "I . . Can't.. . kill. . " and she was amazed. She even reinforced the hold stronger than before and Batman STILL knew he wouldn't. "If he wanted to, Clark could fly over here and squish me into the cement. But I know how he thinks. Even more than Kyrptonite, he's got one big weakness. Deep down Clark is essentially a good person."

I believe there's more examples of this too. Iirc, even one where someone was inside Superman's mind, using his body, and still couldn't kill.

Suggesting he was going to kill Diana is far more of a stretch, that the intepretation in Booster Gold, given the history of the character, and how often this has been tried.

Soljer

Originally posted by Juntai
It's been something consistant in Superman's character, however, that even those mind controlling him, can't make him take a life.

We even have a near match to the Max Lord incident...Manchester Black tried the same thing as Max Lord, and Superman didn't kill anyone then either. And Superman saw Lois die in that equation too.

In Hush, Poison Ivy tried to make Superman kill, and simply said "I . . Can't.. . kill. . " and she was amazed. She even reinforced the hold stronger than before and Batman STILL knew he wouldn't. "If he wanted to, Clark could fly over here and squish me into the cement. But I know how he thinks. Even more than Kyrptonite, he's got one big weakness. Deep down Clark is essentially a good person."

I believe there's more examples of this too. Iirc, even one where someone was inside Superman's mind, using his body, and still couldn't kill.

Suggesting he was going to kill Diana is far more of a stretch, that the intepretation in Booster Gold, given the history of the character, and how often this has been tried.

thumb up

starlock

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I just found this thread ironically. I wasn't even looking for it. I was looking for Secret Invasion #3 discussions since Newsarama is down. What a great issue! I almost never venture outside the vs forum here in KMC. And I don't mean to spark a debate here, but I think there are several obvious flaws in your reasoning, Raoul:

1) In 'Countdown to Infinite Crisis,' Maxwell Lord positively states that he could get Superman to kill for him. Up until his death, he never retracts that statement. To use a divergent future timeline's Maxwell Lord as evidence lends credence to your theory. But it's just about arguable. Arguable. Not concrete. We all know alternate universes and divergent timelines are very rarely used as on-panel proof for or against New Earth or 616 Earth stuff. There is no on-panel evidence in proper history which suggests that Maxwell Lord didn't have complete control over Superman. In fact, the events in 'Sacrifice' support that he does and he supports it with his own words under the Lasso of Truth.

2) Superman has had his mind taken over in several different ways. By Circe (magic), by Dracula (hypnosis) and by Eclipso (possession), off the top of my head. He did not fight his way out of any of these. Circe's spell was broken by Wonder Woman, Dracula's hypnosis ended when he bit Superman and inadvertently killed himself and Spectre, at the behest of Shazam, separated Eclipso from Superman. These are all relatively recent. And Maxwell Lord's mental control was different from my examples and your examples in three fundamental ways. It was: 1) subtle; 2) multi-layered; and 3) built up over years. Subtlety is quite the key here. Because in all of your examples, except for Poison Ivy arguably, Superman knew he was being assaulted mentally and actively had a chance to assert his will against the manipulations. He doesn't get that benefit here. So how much more potent is Lord's feat than the examples you and I posted? Well, one simple and direct indication of its potency was Martian Manhunter's utter inability to reverse it.

3) First off, Superman killed both DOS Doomsday and H/P Doomsday. So, if Superman is seeing Doomsday, then yes... his moral stance wouldn't be above trying to kill him. And that was the case here. But just in case you're arguing what I think you're arguing... are you saying that if Superman is not actively trying to kill someone, he isn't actually fighting at his fullest? Which would kinda make sense except for the obvious flaw. As you state, Superman never really tries to kill anybody. Yet, I positively remember you using Superman's fight with Manchester Black as an example of a full-on Superman. But there, he wasn't trying to kill them either. Not in the slightest. So Superman does not need to be actively trying to kill someone in order to fight at his fullest. But if there was anybody who we would try to kill... who would it be most likely? You got it. Doomsday. Especially one that just ripped Lois apart.

Your arguments are reasonable to me. But you: 1) make liberal use of a divergent future timeline's events; 2) do not recognize how mind control has worked in the past and how different Lord's control was in its subtlety; and 3) ignored that Superman has killed Doomsday and doesn't even need to actively kill to fight at his fullest. I do not believe your arguments are conclusive. I continue to believe that Superman was fighting at his fullest in 'Sacrifice.'

thumb up

Raoul

Val-E-Doosh

Please. Diana's ass was grass if that fight continued.

starlock

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
Please. Diana's ass was grass if that fight continued.

Really?... i thought it looked like superman had his throat slit and was lucky to have such a caring friend who held back when he did not.....i think its safe to say the writers disagree with you....but hey who are they wink

Val-E-Doosh

*sigh*

I'm saying that in opposition to the idea that Superman wasn't trying to kill WW there. If you think WW beats Superman that's your issue.

-K-M-

Originally posted by Juntai
I believe there's more examples of this too. Iirc, even one where someone was inside Superman's mind, using his body, and still couldn't kill.

In Booster Gold, Max lord couldn't force Superman to kill anyone.

Raoul

Originally posted by -K-M-
In Booster Gold, Max lord couldn't force Superman to kill anyone.

*cough*

Originally posted by Raoul
Over a year passes, before Booster Gold, still saddened by the loss of his best friend Blue Beetle, decides to change history, and rescue Beetle from the clutches of Maxwell Lord. He succeeds (Booster Gold 6), but changes history, changing it to the effect that Lord isn't killed by Wonder Woman, and using Superman as his puppet (along with an army of omacs), conquers the planet.

We do learn, now, that even with his powers honed over many years, that no matter how hard he tries, he is unable to make Superman kill for him (Booster Gold 8).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/BG8MaxcantmakeClarkKill.jpg

Of course, Lord isn't the first being that has attempted to coerce the Man of Steel into committing dirty deeds, there have been many more. One thing, however, remains constant. Superman's ability to resist and fight against the mental onslaught he is under...

ha-som

-K-M-

Yeah I generally try to avoid reading your posts smile

Raoul

Originally posted by -K-M-
Yeah I generally try to avoid reading your posts smile

cry

Val-E-Doosh

Originally posted by -K-M-
Yeah I generally try to avoid reading your posts smile

(h5)

Raoul

nice to know that i've been missed...

-K-M-

Awwww...muffin stick out tongue

Avlon

Originally posted by Juntai
Also noting the fact once again, that Max said he couldn't make Superman kill no matter how hard he tried.

That and the fact that full range heat vision is far hotter than the sun. Supermans hair doesnt even lose its shiny sheen in the sun aand yet he can give himself a shapeup with it.

Meanwhile, diana was shitting bricks just at the idea of being tossed in. Obviously it wasnt full power Hv used on her.

Val-E-Doosh

That or Greg Rucka doesn't think so highly of heat vision.

Juntai

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
Please. Diana's ass was grass if that fight continued. thumb up

Charlotte DeBel

and Colossus "Young People" in her first appearance when conversing with that fossil Leland. Then later on Claremont refers to her as "still youthful" after she was upset that she was stuck in Storms body...clearly that comment was down to either Claremonts inconsistency or Emma's arrogant attitude.

BTW Cyclops has seen a Celestial before right? In X-Factor?

Recently saw the supporters of that "Emma is 40+" myth on CBR and Uncanny X-Men.net boards... nearly made me vomit. Though Exodus knows what I mean since he posted in "Ruby Summers" thread.

UniOmni

The myth of the planet smasher.

People who have done this....

Beta Ray Bill
Not Reg Superman
Supercharged Superman Prime
Not Reg Superman
Gladiator
Among others

People who have said they can do this

Superman
Superman
Superman
Superman

I mean, it's nice to have hopes and dreams, but i still can't maintain an erection for more than 13 minutes, no matter how much i say i can go all night long.

It's nice to want things tho.

DestinyGuy678

Originally posted by UniOmni
The myth of the planet smasher.

People who have done this....

Beta Ray Bill
Not Reg Superman
Supercharged Superman Prime
Not Reg Superman
Gladiator
Among others

People who have said they can do this

Superman
Superman
Superman
Superman

I mean, it's nice to have hopes and dreams, but i still can't maintain an erection for more than 13 minutes, no matter how much i say i can go all night long.

It's nice to want things tho. superman has destroyed planet during his fights (the shockwaves of the punches would blow the planet up) I think it happened againg superman-2 (the blew up earth-2), Darkseid (they blew up a planetoid), and with zod (I dunno if the planet was blown up but it was coming to pieces)

Red Hulk

Originally posted by DestinyGuy678
superman has destroyed planet during his fights (the shockwaves of the punches would blow the planet up) I think it happened againg superman-2 (the blew up earth-2), Darkseid (they blew up a planetoid), and with zod (I dunno if the planet was blown up but it was coming to pieces) Scans or it didn't happen.

Dark-Jaxx

I have heard two claims about Superman Prime that I have yet to see confirmed.

One that his "retcon punch" is what brought back the Multiverse.

The other is that he was so fast that Bart Allen had to absorb the entire Speed Force to keep up with him.

Any truth to either of these?

King Kandy

I have seen absolutely nothing to support these assertions. The multiverse was restored by Alex Luthor, and the Speed Force thing just plain didn't happen.

Blight

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
I have heard two claims about Superman Prime that I have yet to see confirmed.

One that his "retcon punch" is what brought back the Multiverse.

The other is that he was so fast that Bart Allen had to absorb the entire Speed Force to keep up with him.

Any truth to either of these? I thought Alexanders machine was what brought back the Multiverse...

Sorry for the double post... kept reading.

Philosoph�a

Originally posted by Blight
You can't maintain an erection for more that 13 minutes?

crylaugh

OneDumbG0

^ That came so out of left field...

... just what? I just...

... what?

...

Charlotte DeBel

Not much of a myth... more of analysis

Emma Frost's diamond form- inconsistencies

The basic properties of diamond form mutation of Emma Frost are being superhard, dispersing psionc energy providing immunity to TP yet being unable to access her TP.
http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitledscanned09oo2pj4.jpg
Indestructable according to Danger's sensors
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=8848640
Emotions are nulled and no telepathy
http://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xmenphoenixwarsong3014hr6.jpg
Immune to TP
http://img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p23ui1.jpg
Her full diamond form is solid diamond, no blood when gets shattered

However there were some inconsistencies about that form- like Emma being harmed by No-Girl's TP or Xavier's psychic backlash in it, being able to access TP in her diamond form or bleeding in it.
(New) X-Men #119
Emma has pain receptors turned off in diamond form, yet bleeds normal blood and gets stunned by No-Girl's TP (which gets easily blocked when Emma turns back in human form)
http://www.picamatic.com/show/2008/09/14/04/37/1003404_bigthumb.jpg
Academy X #27
Emma while in diamond form gets stabbed by vibranium knife and bleeds.
http://www.picamatic.com/show/2008/09/14/04/38/1003408_bigthumb.jpg
(In Uncanny X-Men 499 vibranium knives in hands of superstrong person (Warpath) do nothing to her:
http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uncannyxmen499002zn4.jpg
http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uncannyxmen499003ot0.jpg )
Giant-sized Astonishing X-Men
Emma communicates telepathically while beating aliens in her diamond form
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2214/gsastonishingxmen01010eh8.th.jpg
However, it turns out that it's not writers' inconsistency to blame and that variation of showing can easily be explained. The answer lies in Emma's "daughters"'s mutation- Stepford Cuckoos are able to turn in diamond form partially, retaining access to TP while having a part of their body diamond.
They turn thir hearts permanently diamondd to seal the Phoenix- that leaves them emotionless.
http://www.picamatic.com/view/1011914_img021/
http://www.picamatic.com/view/1010963_img022/
http://www.picamatic.com/view/1011692_img023/

In fact, Emma has been shown turning only parts of her body diamond on panel:
http://img227.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uncanny495dcp00025jj7.jpg
Uncanny X-Men 495. Eyes are diamond while the rest of the body is flesh. That doesn't prevent her from TP communication.
In fact, that explains perfectly what happens in scans from Academy X 27 and (New) X-Men #119- only Emma's skin gets turned diamond, that's why despite having pain receptors and emotions nulled (see scans with Cuckoos), she still has flesh inside that diamond hide and organic brain- that's why she bleeds here. The scan from Giant-sized AXM shows that with practice she learned how to communicate in that form, though apparently her TP is weaker in partially transformed state and it's hard for her to use it much(her feats in that "controversal" state are barely communication, and nothing more).

In fact, the idea of Emma and Cuckoos having more precise control over their diamond forms was first brought up when they planned to include Emma in X3 movie. Here's the design of Emma by Michael Turner developed for the movie:
http://www.picamatic.com/show/2008/09/15/01/10/1007784_bigthumb.jpg

So the results of analysis shows that Emma can actually have "intermediate" form with diamond skin and limited telepathy- that explains the controversy of showings of her diamond form.