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Sabretooth vs Carnage, who wins?

Carnage in a stomp.

Originally posted by spidermonkey
Sabretooth vs Carnage, who wins?


has been done before, but carnage should put a nasty beat down on Sabes for a healthy majority

Sabretooth, via decapitation.

decapitation?

Originally posted by spidermonkey
decapitation?

Carnage is a higher level than Sabs altogether.

Which is why he whooped up so easily on Bone Clawed Wolvie right? Oh wait!

Logan has PIS and fanboy power behind him while Carnage doesnt.

Yes.. because every writer, and editor at Marvel is a Logan fanboy...

They want to please them but they also use a lot of PIS with him because of them.

The arguments that follow Wolverine are the same ones that follow Batman in a thread. Imo, it's complete bullshit.

Wolverine and Batman both do what they do on a consistent basis, so to try and discredit their feats is asinine.

Carnage wins.

Carnage mauls Sabretooth.

Originally posted by jinzin
Which is why he whooped up so easily on Bone Clawed Wolvie right? Oh wait!



Finally I see someone else than me making a reference to that fight

Carnage.

Originally posted by The Nuul
They want to please them but they also use a lot of PIS with him because of them.



Yes, the mostly off panel fight between Wolverine and Carnage placated the plot to move it forward soooo much..




Originally posted by batdude123
The arguments that follow Wolverine are the same ones that follow Batman in a thread. Imo, it's complete bullshit.

Wolverine and Batman both do what they do on a consistent basis, so to try and discredit their feats is asinine.

Exactly.... How is popularity a dedurrant to comic facts replicated over and over again?

I don't get it.

Originally posted by harri
Carnage mauls Sabretooth.

And Sabretooth mauls him back. They're pretty even.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW


Finally I see someone else than me making a reference to that fight

Well.. yeah... it's even more impressive given all the action that was taking place in the background while Wolvie was minus a set of claws.

sabretooth wins he is a trained killer with a healing factor he will beat carnage worse then wolverine did

wolverine never beat Carnage all he did was stab him from behind with no effect after Carnage bit his claws off and stopped paying attention to him.
Carnage wins this. Itd take more than adamantium claws to put him down.

Carnage in a stomp

Carnage by a land slide. When you stack the two profiles against each other, Carnage has the advantage by a significant margin. I don't see Sabretooth winning this anyway except through PIS and some serious nuthugging by the writer.

Originally posted by SamZED
wolverine never beat Carnage all he did was stab him from behind with no effect after Carnage bit his claws off and stopped paying attention to him.
Carnage wins this. Itd take more than adamantium claws to put him down.

Uh, no.. carnage and Wolverine continued their one on one fight throughout the issue and iff you look hard, or download the comic and upgrade the images you can see them standing off the entire issue in the background.

Carnage

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
Carnage by a land slide. When you stack the two profiles against each other, Carnage has the advantage by a significant margin. I don't see Sabretooth winning this anyway except through PIS and some serious nuthugging by the writer. Since I feel like playing Devil's advocate today:
Carnage fights like an idiot 90% of the time and has let people like Black Cat, and Spiderman get up close and personal with him in h2h fights. He hardly ever uses even a percentage of his potential and will LIKELY go into melee due to CIS.

He has a strength advantage that's nearly useless for the purposed of fighting Sabretooth.

An assumed speed advantage that's non-existant going by feats.

And even if he uses blades, spikes and tendrils to their best, he could very well hit Sabretooth in several vital areas at the same time and to utterly no effect.

On Panel Carnage couldn't outpace, outfight Bone Claw Wolverine in a prolonged fight.
Wolverine has a 100% Stalemate/victorious record against Venom in battle, who has multiple times proven to be the superior to Carnage.

Alternatively, one strike to the head, neck, or heart by Sabretooth could kill Cassidy or slow him down enough to finish off.

These two will fight a standard melee based fight and given Sabretooth's HF, tenacity and fighting skill on top of his mutant powers he more than levels the playing field against Carnage in a fight.

There is no stomp in this thread.

Carnage removes Sabre's brain through those eye sockets via tendrils. Carny stomps.

oh and sabes is just gonna let him do that? uh huh

Originally posted by jinzin
Uh, no.. carnage and Wolverine continued their one on one fight throughout the issue and iff you look hard, or download the comic and upgrade the images you can see them standing off the entire issue in the background. I know that, but that pannel doesnt really show anything. All we know for sure is - Carnage bit his claws off and Wolverine later attacking Carnage from behind with no ill effect for Carnage. The rest hapened off panel. Nowhere in that book did Wolverine "own" Carnage like that banned guy said. If anything the book showed that itd take more than just claws to put him down. Carnage simply got more options here. A few dozen razor sharp tendrils moving faster than bullets would be a problem even for ST.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
Carnage by a land slide. When you stack the two profiles against each other, Carnage has the advantage by a significant margin. I don't see Sabretooth winning this anyway except through PIS and some serious nuthugging by the writer.

Originally posted by SamZED
I know that, but that pannel doesnt really show anything. All we know for sure is - Carnage bit his claws off and Wolverine later attacking Carnage from behind with no ill effect for Carnage. The rest hapened off panel. Nowhere in that book did Wolverine "own" Carnage like that banned guy said. If anything the book showed that itd take more than just claws to put him down. Carnage simply got more options here. A few dozen razor sharp tendrils moving faster than bullets would be a problem even for ST.

Actually they had multiple panels that showed them fighting. After he bit the claws off.

Wolverine didn't own him, true, but carnage didn't rage stomp either, it was another Logan on symbiote stalemate, like usual.

Also, Logan didn't hit any vital areas... of course the symbiotes can tank most damage.

Originally posted by jinzin
Actually they had multiple panels that showed them fighting. After he bit the claws off.

Wolverine didn't own him, true, but carnage didn't rage stomp either, it was another Logan on symbiote stalemate, like usual.

Also, Logan didn't hit any vital areas... of course the symbiotes can tank most damage. I never said that Carnage owned him, my post was a reply to the guy who said that Logan owned Cassidy. That's true there's no clear winner. But I stil believe that Carnage will take clear majority over Sabertooth. Im in no way understimating ST, its just Carnage has more options and normally it takes some kind of heatbased attack to put him down.

Originally posted by jinzin
Actually they had multiple panels that showed them fighting. After he bit the claws off.



1. http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/599/xmenspiderman003014015vd1.jpg
2. http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/2917/xmenspiderman003016qj2.jpg
3. http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/2636/xmenspiderman003017.jpg
4. http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/6596/xmenspiderman003019.jpg
5. http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/9453/xmenspiderman003020ho3.jpg
6. http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/6734/xmenspiderman003021gw1.jpg

Originally posted by jinzin
Wolverine didn't own him, true, but carnage didn't rage stomp either, it was another Logan on symbiote stalemate, like usual.

Also, Logan didn't hit any vital areas... of course the symbiotes can tank most damage.

But somehow he's gonna shitstomp Creed!

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
oh and sabes is just gonna let him do that? uh huh

Does he have a choice? His reach is arms length where as Carnage has the benefit tendrils that can keep Sabes at bay.

Carnage will do terrible things to Sabs........


Terrible things.

Depending on which Sabes we are talking about.

Bone claw Sabes lose the majority, Carnage 7/10.

Adamantium Sabes wins the majority, something like 8/10.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Does he have a choice? His reach is arms length where as Carnage has the benefit tendrils that can keep Sabes at bay.

Can... maybe... will they? Most likely not.

Carnage uses the benefit of this tendtrils when he's in the process of trying to catch an oponent who's on the run, it's really the only time he ever really effectively used them after his first couple appearances sans some more exoctic use of them during Carnage Unleashed.

Bottem line is that Cassidy is a complete idiot and will be drawn into a melee confrontation by anyone who challenges him in doing so, and that's exactly what's going to happen here.

Tendrils didn't stop Wolverine, they're not going to stop Sabretooth.
Again, even if Cletus does start whackin Sabes with tendrils, against Bone Claw Sabretooth he could hit Victor in the heart, throat, and head and STILL probabyl and potentially fail to put him down or even effect him, against Adamantium Sabes, most of his vitals are well protected and encased in Adamantium.

Truth is, Sabretooth (who has blitzed Spidey and is for a fact faster than Wolverine) is going to close the gap on Cassidy early, and from there it's going to quickly turn into a vicious brawl.

This is the type of fight that given each opponents powers and personality, sets itself up for a classic stalemate.

Wait, when did Sabertooth blitz Spidey? I only remember him grabbing him by the neck when Spider-man jumped towards him while dodging Punisher's shots and cutting his cloth once. Wouldn't call it a blitz. The other times Spider-man did just fine dodging and hitting ST.

Sabes loses.

when he cut his ribcage up.

though you're right the punisher wasn't a blitz.

Carnage stomps, and based on the consistency logic, Flash gets hit by silly things he has no business being hit by on a consistent basis, do we use that logic here? No. This isn't a comic book, and things like popularity don't play a factor here. At leas they shouldn't. Both characters fight up close and Sabes is worse off and his nails don't even have the range as Wolverine's claws.

His nails have enough range to hit vitals.... like... all of them for instance.

Consistency matters, this isn't flash and boomerangs, this isn't PIS based on popularity.

Sabretooth has the physical stats to compete... not sure what you think there is to nay-say really.

sabes nail claws can extend up to 6''s

Originally posted by jinzin
His nails have enough range to hit vitals.... like... all of them for instance.

Consistency matters, this isn't flash and boomerangs, this isn't PIS based on popularity.

Sabretooth has the physical stats to compete... not sure what you think there is to nay-say really.

I don't see how this matters. Sabretooth beating Carnage would be PIS. That's how Carnage was always beaten. How else could he be beat by lesser Superhumans? If Carnage fought with any seriousness at all, he would definitely pwn ST.

That's called CIS and it's on by default rules...

Still doesn't change the situation that Carnage has the more advanced abilities.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
I don't see how this matters. Sabretooth beating Carnage would be PIS. That's how Carnage was always beaten. How else could he be beat by lesser Superhumans? If Carnage fought with any seriousness at all, he would definitely pwn ST.
He does fight seriously... like one serious idiot.... And
The only thing that Carnage has over Sabes legitimately is strength which a negatable factor against Sabretooth's powers anyway.

Though Carnage does have ranged options as well he's unlikely to use them to their best or even remotely close to it, AND he's unlikely to put Sabes away with them anyway.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
Still doesn't change the situation that Carnage has the more advanced abilities.

He needs TEH BRAIN to use them though.

Once again, CIS. Character Induced Stupidity.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Carnage stomps, and based on the consistency logic, Flash gets hit by silly things he has no business being hit by on a consistent basis, do we use that logic here? No. This isn't a comic book, and things like popularity don't play a factor here. At leas they shouldn't. Both characters fight up close and Sabes is worse off and his nails don't even have the range as Wolverine's claws.

HUH?

You cant use the flash since in every fight Flash is in he is using his speed. The only reason people hit him is because they time their attacks. Its not like people goes fist to fist with flash or anything. Its a timed, well placed attack during a blitz where Flash is whippin that a**.

Carnage isn't the brightest light bulb in comics. Hasn't prevented him from using his symbiote powers effectively on-panel. His blustering approach -- while not expertly tactical -- still doesn't detract from his viciousness and powers. Sabretooth isn't going to be easy to put down, but between the clawing, slashing and chomping and tearing... Sabretooth's got his claws and teeth... and Carnage has every inch of his entire body via symbiote-control.

which he won't use to the bulk of their effectiveness...

^ Carnage still has his superior strength. He still has his tendrils whipping about and tearing up all over the place. He still has the durability afforded by his symbiote, which also repairs any damage wrought. He's still just as agile as Sabretooth.

Carnage not using his symbiote to their utmost potential =/= Sabretooth stalemating him.

What is Carnage's greatest strength feat? The chopper feat?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Carnage isn't the brightest light bulb in comics. Hasn't prevented him from using his symbiote powers effectively on-panel. His blustering approach -- while not expertly tactical -- still doesn't detract from his viciousness and powers. Sabretooth isn't going to be easy to put down, but between the clawing, slashing and chomping and tearing... Sabretooth's got his claws and teeth... and Carnage has every inch of his entire body via symbiote-control. sabretooth also has an insane healing factor

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Carnage still has his superior strength. based on?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Carnage still has his superior strength. He still has his tendrils whipping about and tearing up all over the place. He still has the durability afforded by his symbiote, which also repairs any damage wrought. He's still just as agile as Sabretooth.

Carnage not using his symbiote to their utmost potential =/= Sabretooth stalemating him.

His strength is almost completely negatable against Sabretooth's powers. Just like the strength factor has always been against the Logan family. If Sabretooth was trying to engage him in a wrestling match I could see that point being effective.. but.... not in a fight.. It hasn't worked.... well for almost anyone really...

Again with this tendrils thing... How often has Carnage been whacking people with tendrils from "every inch of his body"? It doesn't happen. He uses them in directional attacks but h's not as effective with them as I see you thinking them in this thread.

His durability will do nothing, nothing at all to stop the claws from doing damage whether we're talking Adamantium OR organic and Sabretooth can sustain more damage to vitals than Cletus can and keep fighting and he's a much better fighter.

If Carnage could/did use his symbiote to the peak of it's potential he'd be more of a match for high high tier heavy hitters... But... meh, CIS..

I would imagine Carnage does have superior strength though guys but he's like..... well.... I've heard 50 tops... probably closer to 30/40 it's just not enough to matter.

^ I was listing his advantages. I never submitted that Carnage's strength advantage was a game-changer by itself.

He hasn't used every single inch of his body to attack. But he has used whipping tendrils in pretty much every fight. What you think is "effective" =/= what I think is "effective." It's just another advantage, not a game-changer by itself.

This is inconsistent. If you think Sabretooth can dish more damage than Carnage's symbiote is able to compensate for, how exactly do you even think this even a stalemate?

Using his symbiote to the greatest peak of his potential =/= what is needed to beat Sabretooth. The several advantages his symbiote offers give him that.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I was listing his advantages. I never submitted that Carnage's strength advantage was a game-changer by itself.

He hasn't used every single inch of his body to attack. But he has used whipping tendrils in pretty much every fight. What you think is "effective" =/= what I think is "effective." It's just another advantage, not a game-changer by itself.

This is inconsistent. If you think Sabretooth can dish more damage than Carnage's symbiote is able to compensate for, how exactly do you even think this even a stalemate?

Using his symbiote to the greatest peak of his potential =/= what is needed to beat Sabretooth. The several advantages his symbiote offers give him that. carnage cant even beat spiderman...what makes you think he could beat creed?

On dumb... fair enough. BTW finally got ahold of that damn ronin issue.. I'm going to go back to that thread when I have a chance just be patient. Though I admit you were right I DID need to go back over that issue.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
This is inconsistent. If you think Sabretooth can dish more damage than Carnage's symbiote is able to compensate for, how exactly do you even think this even a stalemate? I guess I can see that... But that wasn't quite what I said.
His symbiote will compensate for most types of damage and keep him fighting he's just not going to be tanking through vital shots.

I do agree with you that he will use enough of his tendril attacks to either keep Sabretooth's healing factor busy or his hands busy, but Sabretooth also has a stronger acting healing factor that will work at optimum levels even longer than Wolverine's. I don't think Carnage is going to put Creed down before he gets tagged in 1 or 2 vital spots that will put him out but I do think he can stay up long enough to ride the fight out to a stalemate. I just don't see his advantages being enough to justify the win here.

Originally posted by Starscream M
carnage cant even beat spiderman...what makes you think he could beat creed? Sandman can't beat Spiderman either. Does that mean Sandman loses to Creed?

Flowing from that, try posting scans of every time Carnage "lost" to Spiderman in a straight-up fight and you might start seeing why your ABC logic falls flat.

i am not saying carnage doesnt beat sabe but it isnt a stomp for carnage as a certain poster claims it to be.. if anyone of us were in control of the sym yeah sure we could end the fight easily but we are not cledus is and his personality will have him making bladed weapons and shooting his sym at sabe possibly tendril whips and if he were to manage to wrap sabe.. i can see sabe tearing and ripping his way lose for a while using his claws..

yeah pretty much.

Of course if we were symbiotes, we'de be using invisability, telepathy, psychic nightmares/illusions etc in every fight lol

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
i am not saying carnage doesnt beat sabe but it isnt a stomp for carnage as a certain poster claims it to be.. if anyone of us were in control of the sym yeah sure we could end the fight easily but we are not cledus is and his personality will have him making bladed weapons and shooting his sym at sabe possibly tendril whips and if he were to manage to wrap sabe.. i can see sabe tearing and ripping his way lose for a while using his claws.. Possibly tendril whips? He uses those all the time. Even unconsciously. Originally posted by jinzin
On dumb... fair enough. BTW finally got ahold of that damn ronin issue.. I'm going to go back to that thread when I have a chance just be patient. Though I admit you were right I DID need to go back over that issue.

I guess I can see that... But that wasn't quite what I said.
His symbiote will compensate for most types of damage and keep him fighting he's just not going to be tanking through vital shots.

I do agree with you that he will use enough of his tendril attacks to either keep Sabretooth's healing factor busy or his hands busy, but Sabretooth also has a stronger acting healing factor that will work at optimum levels even longer than Wolverine's. I don't think Carnage is going to put Creed down before he gets tagged in 1 or 2 vital spots that will put him out but I do think he can stay up long enough to ride the fight out to a stalemate. I just don't see his advantages being enough to justify the win here. Are you talking to me? Because I don't recall what you're talking about.

Well, you obviously have a firm belief that a few shots to vitals will end him. What is this belief based on exactly?

Sabretooth is more than capable of tagging him. I have no doubt of that. But I still don't see how your believing a couple of shots to vitals will end the fight = Sabretooth merely stalemates Carnage.

the sym eventually weakens due to the damage it absorbs.. if it shoots to many hard sym projectiles or has to constantly repair and heal cassidy it will run out of itself and weaken..

^ Which mirrors Sabretooth's healing factor. Yay.

I was reffering to the Gamora thread.

anywho, The belief stems from the fact that blades have a history of successfully bypassing symbiotes, during seperation anxiety a sonic knife successfully killed several symbiotes by bypassing the symbiotes skin, and hitting vital areas, and they stayed dead even after the knife was immediately removed. during the clone era one shot from Scarlet Spiderman put Brock away when he didn't have his symbiote to help him defend himself. Wolverine grounded brock for a couple panels with one shot to the gut... Though the suit can heal wounds, from all appearances it can't do much to help the reactions of the hosts themselves to the pain/damage that's inflicted on them.

Though Venom has also tanked bullets shot through his torso, that's a little suspect seeing how the symbiotes supposed to be and proven many times to be bullet proof.

actually i place sabes hf over sym on average far above them... i recall the sym weakening faster then anything sabe would have from. venom once weakened himself from trying to slow down his fall and using up his sym by making to many web lines.. also it took the sym a long time just to heal eddie's wife. and it has taken eddie days to fully heal from beating and stabs when he was the deadly protector of san fran..

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
the sym eventually weakens due to the damage it absorbs.. if it shoots to many hard sym projectiles or has to constantly repair and heal cassidy it will run out of itself and weaken.. yeah, that too....

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Which mirrors Sabretooth's healing factor. Yay.

exactly... that's why I call for a stalemate...


Gotta admit, my first thought on the subject was "carnage wins...easily" but after deciding to play devil's advocate and actually thinking this through from both sides I can't honestly think of a reason to justify that rationale that isn't based on the Carnage>Spiderman/Venom team-up myth. He just hasn't done what's needed to prove as much imo.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Sandman can't beat Spiderman either. Does that mean Sandman loses to Creed?

Flowing from that, try posting scans of every time Carnage "lost" to Spiderman in a straight-up fight and you might start seeing why your ABC logic falls flat.

Originally posted by jinzin
I was reffering to the Gamora thread.

anywho, The belief stems from the fact that blades have a history of successfully bypassing symbiotes, during seperation anxiety a sonic knife successfully killed several symbiotes by bypassing the symbiotes skin, and hitting vital areas, and they stayed dead even after the knife was immediately removed. during the clone era one shot from Scarlet Spiderman put Brock away when he didn't have his symbiote to help him defend himself. Wolverine grounded brock for a couple panels with one shot to the gut... Though the suit can heal wounds, from all appearances it can't do much to help the reactions of the hosts themselves to the pain/damage that's inflicted on them.

Though Venom has also tanked bullets shot through his torso, that's a little suspect seeing how the symbiotes supposed to be and proven many times to be bullet proof. Stop calling Ronan, Ronin.

"Sonic blade." Symbiotes have been stabbed, torn apart, etc. They obviously have the capacity to heal their hosts.

This is another example of the symbiotes' capacity to heal their hosts.

Also, Carnage doesn't need to be > Spiderman/Venom to beat Sabretooth. Roughly being equal to Venom is enough.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Stop calling Ronan, Ronin.

"Sonic blade." Symbiotes have been stabbed, torn apart, etc. They obviously have the capacity to heal their hosts.

This is another example of the symbiotes' capacity to heal their hosts.

Also, Carnage doesn't need to be > Spiderman/Venom to beat Sabretooth. Roughly being equal to Venom is enough.

I'm illiterate, sue me. hehe

And yeah it was a sonic blade but it's not like the sonic blade killed the symbiote or disabled it from healing the host after the blade was immediately removed. It's just an example of the symbiote being contingent on the hosts satefy, just like those other examples.

And yeah we all know symbiotes sport healing factors for hosts but Shadow's right, they're not at the Creed/Logan level.

And I didn't say Carnage needed to be>Spidey/venom... I'm just saying that my first reaction was under the assumption that he was when I read the title of the thread in spite of that notion being a myth and contrary to comic fact AND what I know, so it's not hard to see why people are giving Carnage the edge so easily here... But the fact is going by fights and feats Carnage ISN'T even at Brocks level. .

the only reason the sym HF looks remotely impressive at times is b/c the damage doesnt always reach its host and the sym stops it by itself able to morph around the objects..

example eddie buffs up in his venom form at certain knifes never reach eddie himself underneath the sym or only receives minor damage easily repairable. it reminds me when johnny GR stabbed venom in the arm and the sym propelled it out.

or when venom takes buck shot or catches the bullet sometimes it simply takes it into itself that doesnt mean it is using its Hf regeneration ability.

cletus doesnt use added mass in his sym so more likely to take more direct damage to the host then venom would have and tax the sym.

^ Damage has reached the hosts and hasn't stopped the symbiote/host from fighting.

Look at Thunderbolts #119 for just one example of the host being run through and the symbiote/host functiioning fine until catastrophic damage is wrought.

Exactly, healing damage only comes into play when the symbiote or the host is damaged in the first place. Most of the time, the symbiote's plain malleable durability blunts any damage caused. And that plain malleable durability doesn't necessitate the use of a healing factor, which I can agree will eventually tax the symbiote.

Not really. Originally posted by jinzin
And yeah it was a sonic blade but it's not like the sonic blade killed the symbiote or disabled it from healing the host after the blade was immediately removed. It's just an example of the symbiote being contingent on the hosts satefy, just like those other examples.

And yeah we all know symbiotes sport healing factors for hosts but Shadow's right, they're not at the Creed/Logan level.

And I didn't say Carnage needed to be>Spidey/venom... I'm just saying that my first reaction was under the assumption that he was when I read the title of the thread in spite of that notion being a myth and contrary to comic fact AND what I know, so it's not hard to see why people are giving Carnage the edge so easily here... But the fact is going by fights and feats Carnage ISN'T even at Brocks level. Unless I'm missing something, sonics do, in fact, inhibit the symbiotes from functioning properly.

Symbiotes' ability to heal damage and blunt damage with durability affords them an advantage that is roughly equal to the mutants' healing factors.

Carnage is roughly Venom's equal. Which is partly evinced by his ability to fight both Venom and Spiderman simultaneously.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Not really. Unless I'm missing something, sonics do, in fact, inhibit the symbiotes from functioning properly.

Symbiotes' ability to heal damage and blunt damage with durability affords them an advantage that is roughly equal to the mutants' healing factors.

Uh.... yeah sonics inhibit the suits when they're attacking the suit... It's not like the knife continuously attacked the suits after removal.
Just like every time they've been used as soon as the sonic attack stops the suit begins to regen again.

Sabretooth doesn't make much sport of blunt force damage so I'm not sure how you think it affords carnage much in this particular fight.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Carnage is roughly Venom's equal. Which is partly evinced by his ability to fight both Venom and Spiderman simultaneously.

This is exactly what I was talking about, it's the assumption I was operating under as well.. but Carnage only ever showed the ability to moderately hold Spidey and Venom in one appearance before running away, his first appearance. Venom has solo'd him alomst every time they've met since with the exception of thier first fight in the toxin series. Carnage has admitted inferiority to him and Venom... well.. ate carnage... He's not Venom's equal, far from it.

And, you can't really fairly use the venom suit after Gargon got ahold of it. The symbiotes strengths and weaknesses were vastly changed during his last onging comic run when he merged with his clone.

^ Show me Carnage being defeated through impaling or having his throat slashed and I'll entertain the notion that the comparisons are unreasonable. Originally posted by jinzin
Uh.... yeah sonics inhibit the suits when they're attacking the suit... It's not like the knife continuously attacked the suits after removal.
Just like every time they've been used as soon as the sonic attack stops the suit begins to regen again.

Sabretooth doesn't make much sport of blunt force damage so I'm not sure how you think it affords carnage much in this particular fight.

This is exactly what I was talking about, it's the assumption I was operating under as well.. but Carnage only ever showed the ability to moderately hold Spidey and Venom in one appearance before running away, his first appearance. Venom has solo'd him alomst every time they've met since with the exception of thier first fight in the toxin series. Carnage has admitted inferiority to him and Venom... well.. ate carnage... He's not Venom's equal, far from it. I don't recall symbiotes recovering from the disruptive dehabilitation caused by sonics instantly. It damages them greatly.

His malleable durability offers him more than just blunt force durability. Combined with his healing ability, Carnage (like Venom) can stand against opponents who typically resort to winning through evisceration.

Carnage is roughly Venom's equal from their fights. I've seen scans of Venom eating the Carnage symbiote, but I don't know the circumstances behind it. Cletus didn't even fight back, much less even manifest his Carnage form. Brock just grabbed strings of the symbiote that were crawling on Cletus' body and ate them.

On the Flash thing, Flash shouldn't be tagged by anybody human speed without a plot device, no matter how many times it happens it is still garbage.

Carnage's symbiote is vampiric also, seems like that would negate Creed's healing or at least put him in a disadvantage in h2h.

Carnage was always superior to brock venom

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Show me Carnage being defeated through impaling or having his throat slashed and I'll entertain the notion that the comparisons are unreasonable. I don't recall symbiotes recovering from the disruptive dehabilitation caused by sonics instantly. It damages them greatly.
Coooommon! You don't need to see somone take a bullet to the throat to entertain the notion it's gonna ruin their day. That's just..... pft, I dunno even know what to say really. Okay, you want to ignore evidence, I can't stop you.


And like everytime sonics have been used on symbiotes in combat they reform as soon as the sonics are through, assuming they're not taxed already.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
His malleable durability offers him more than just blunt force durability. Combined with his healing ability, Carnage (like Venom) can stand against opponents who typically resort to winning through evisceration.
they DON'T stand up to evisceration very well at all really.. again, not sure what to say here lol.


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Carnage is roughly Venom's equal from their fights. I've seen scans of Venom eating the Carnage symbiote, but I don't know the circumstances behind it. Cletus didn't even fight back, much less even manifest his Carnage form. Brock just grabbed strings of the symbiote that were crawling on Cletus' body and ate them.
that's how he rolls...

in Max, venom was in much worse shape than carnage and Spidey had to save him.
Trial, same deal.
Unleashed, same deal.

Originally posted by Gecko4lif
Carnage was always superior to brock venom You don't know what you started...

Originally posted by jinzin
And, you can't really fairly use the venom suit after Gargon got ahold of it. The symbiotes strengths and weaknesses were vastly changed during his last onging comic run when he merged with his clone. can you explain the clone comment pls?

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
can you explain the clone comment pls?

Venom absorbed a clone of the Venom symbiote in the Venom Tsunami series.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
can you explain the clone comment pls?

Sure, the last ongoing series arc had Venom lose a portion of his tongue to which a clone was created, the clone escaped and both portions of it began to spontaneously develop strange powers at least by all appearances. One portion eventually rebonded with brock during the last hunger storyline, the other half began to become self sustaining like most symbiotes, only using hosts for food. , Venom met up with and fought the clone and by the end of the arc both portions of the symbiote united together venom declaring he had "become so much more!"

the next time we saw the symbiote he was completely resistant to fire attacks, was supposedly as strong as thing, had become much more independent from it's hosts, and grew in strength and size proportionate to the hosts anger.

oookay thx.. defintely cant use that for comparison for carnage.

Originally posted by jinzin
Coooommon! You don't need to see somone take a bullet to the throat to entertain the notion it's gonna ruin their day. That's just..... pft, I dunno even know what to say really. Okay, you want to ignore evidence, I can't stop you.

And like everytime sonics have been used on symbiotes in combat they reform as soon as the sonics are through, assuming they're not taxed already. I don't see Carnage being slashed in the throat as killing him. Forgive my disbelief.

They usually writhe in pain for a while. Originally posted by jinzin
they DON'T stand up to evisceration very well at all really.. again, not sure what to say here lol.

that's how he rolls...

in Max, venom was in much worse shape than carnage and Spidey had to save him.
Trial, same deal.
Unleashed, same deal. I'm willing to change my mind if you show me examples. Because I have the distinct impression that eviscerating them doesn't do much. Example, Carnage raking his claws on a helpless Eddie Brock roasting over fire in Maximum Carnage. The symbiote (which was greatly weakened) wasn't even completely covering him, and Brock wasn't bleeding like a pig.

That's called we're both missing something from the plot...

None of that changes my impression that Carnage is roughly Venom's equal. Although his vampiric touch does give him another advantage nobody's yet accounted for.

is it similar to omega reds or bloodscreams touch?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't see Carnage being slashed in the throat as killing him. Forgive my disbelief.
exactly, he'd be ot of the fight.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
They usually writhe in pain for a while. I'm willing to change my mind if you show me examples. Because I have the distinct impression that eviscerating them doesn't do much. Example, Carnage raking his claws on a helpless Eddie Brock roasting over fire in Maximum Carnage. The symbiote (which was greatly weakened) wasn't even completely covering him, and Brock wasn't bleeding like a pig.
comics code much?
Meh too hard to tell how that would have effected Venom in a fight, like I said he took a gutfull of claw and got up a couple panels later. Just kinda goes along with what I'm saying, he's able to tank most damage, but just like Sabes he can get taxed, and the more vital the blow the easier it is to do that.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
That's called we're both missing something from the plot.

None of that changes my impression that Carnage is roughly Venom's equal. Although his vampiric touch does give him another advantage.

I don't recall there being any specialied reasoning behind it, though i may be wrong, we should ask Sam.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Although his vampiric touch does give him another advantage nobody's yet accounted for. Originally posted by Tha C-Master
On the Flash thing, Flash shouldn't be tagged by anybody human speed without a plot device, no matter how many times it happens it is still garbage.

Carnage's symbiote is vampiric also, seems like that would negate Creed's healing or at least put him in a disadvantage in h2h.

What the... when did he show vampiric powers? Are you guys basing that off of the toon?

i think they are referring to when the suit drains its host but that is parasitic in nature or ultimate carnage

Originally posted by jinzin
What the... when did he show vampiric powers? Are you guys basing that off of the toon? His suit feeds off of the life force of others, he did it and they mentioned it in prison right before he was killed (by Sentry), it is also in his bio.

Originally posted by jinzin
exactly, he'd be ot of the fight.

comics code much?
Meh too hard to tell how that would have effected Venom in a fight, like I said he took a gutfull of claw and got up a couple panels later. Just kinda goes along with what I'm saying, he's able to tank most damage, but just like Sabes he can get taxed, and the more vital the blow the easier it is to do that.

I don't recall there being any specialied reasoning behind it, though i may be wrong, we should ask Sam. Absurd. Carnage and Venom would lose via claws slashing their throat? Want to explain exactly how Sabretooth only manages a stalemate again?

Comics Code permits the showing of blood. Which it did in Maximum Carnage. Although I'll admit that trying to explain away that feat of the symbiotes' malleable durability and healing via the Comics Code was amusing.

When has he done this? At most I've seen him "feed" on people while using his symbiote for nightmares wrapping them in tendrils and using a concious effort to helpless norms.

I've never EVER seen him do this in a fight..

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Absurd. Carnage and Venom would lose via claws slashing their throat? Want to explain exactly how Sabretooth only manages a stalemate again?

Comics Code permits the showing of blood. Which it did in Maximum Carnage. Although I'll admit that trying to explain away that feat of the symbiotes' malleable durability and healing via the Comics Code was amusing.

pretty sure I already discussed this with you, not sure if clarifying it a second time is gonna help.



If you think Cletus can stand up to having vitals torn from his body or severed etc.. that's your perogative.. but this uber healing factor you think he's supposed to have certainly didn't do much for helping him when he was ripped in half.

There was practically no symbiote covering his torso, they showed a few drips of blood and it STILL wasn't covering his torso after the slash.... you think that had to do with Eddie Brock and not CCA.... your perogative I guess... all I can do is shake my head.. logically if Carnage was really trying to gut Brock, there would have been intestines on the floor.. but going by the plot Carnage wanted him to suffer as long as possible, you expect massive amounts of damage given that premise? Suspect to say the least.

Originally posted by jinzin
When has he done this? At most I've seen him "feed" on people while using his symbiote for nightmares wrapping them in tendrils and using a concious effort to helpless norms.

I've never EVER seen him do this in a fight.. He's used it on victims definitely, which shows he can do it. I'd have to hunt for other instances.

also cassidy raking his claws to torture brock doesnt mean brock healed from it simply that cassidy was justly lightly and not deeply cutting him... come on now... sabe.. blood scream and logan have all done that to ppl but we dont claim the other person is invulnerable or has a super HF

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
also cassidy raking his claws to torture brock doesnt mean brock healed from it simply that cassidy was justly lightly and not deeply cutting him... come on now... sabe.. blood scream and logan have all done that to ppl but we dont claim the other person is invulnerable or has a super HF

lol, it's also very suspect because even if Onedumb wants to ignore the obvious reasoing in response, there's the issue that Carnage scratches Brock on the right side of his body but we're only treated to seeing the left side of his body.

cassidy is the weakness of carnage.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
On the Flash thing, Flash shouldn't be tagged by anybody human speed without a plot device, no matter how many times it happens it is still garbage.

Carnage's symbiote is vampiric also, seems like that would negate Creed's healing or at least put him in a disadvantage in h2h.

UUUMMM , its pretty obvious Flash can go light speed but why did he fight amazo at mach one? The answer is pretty obvious if you ask me and thats the reason why he open himself up to be attacked and hit.

Dunno about Carnage but Venom can definitely take claws through his throat chest heart etc and not give a crap. Happened many times. Its been suggested that his bonding with the symbiote was so great it wasn't just a man covered with it but more like merged into one being. Cutting him wont do anything, unless it's a sonicknife Scream had to use to kill other symbiotes.

Originally posted by SamZED
Dunno about Carnage but Venom can definitely take claws through his throat chest heart etc and not give a crap. Happened many times. Its been suggested that his bonding with the symbiote was so great it wasn't just a man covered with it but more like merged into one being. Cutting him wont do anything, unless it's a sonicknife Scream had to use to kill other symbiotes. Yea, I always thought Carnage was like that too.

What? lol like when? When has Venom EVER had his throat ripped out or been stabbed in the heart?

the only time i remember the sym and eddie being shown as being fully merged was when he was upgraded by the cancer virus which showed venom able to fully morph eddie and the sym.. he showed it and was surprised when he completely morphed out his hand into a stump and back to claws.

I think he's talking about Planet of the Symbiotes, they make some reference to eddie having bonded completely with the symbiote, so that it was running through him, the complete bond was what seperated him from his peers.. but I remember Cletus having the symbiote in his bloodstream too so I dunno.

this is a even fight i think.

yeah.. i only have the 1st 2 issues my comic store didnt buy them past that... so noy sure what else happen.. i remember carnage had absorbed all the alien syms and had become a giant. only think i recall about eddie was he had a lovers spat with his sym and separated by him reaching down and pulling him off his toe.. and the sym running off and having a psi scream which called the other syms to the planet..

Yeah, im talking about planet of the symbiotes. Plus Venom was shown to stretch like Reed Richards across the room for several feet which wouldve been impossible if he's wearing it as cloth. As for when he was stabbed, Kraven shoved a spear through his chest, Venom laughed and almost killed him. There was one guy with poisoned stingers who stabbed Venom in the back, again Venom asked for seconds, and there is the many times Wolverine stabbed him or his identical clone. Heck, just recently Punisher has litterally blown Brock's brains out with a shot gun, and Brcok's bonding with the ani-Venom symbiote is nowhere near as good as it used to be with Venom sym. You cant kill a symbiote or its host by stabbing it.

sigh... could it be that venom didnt fully stretch with the suit but was within it suspended as the suit stretched itself making it look like eddie had stretched with it?

also again how deep was the spear impaled to brock? i only ask b/c like i said before venom mass affords him some protection.. same with the claws and stingers.

Ill try to find the scan, but deep enough to pierce the host definitely, in that book Venom was also drawn to be real skinny. And when he stretched, his legs were on the ground while his hands and head where very high above, I remember it well because he was holding half-naked She-Hulk.

also by the way not claiming that wasnt also added later down the line for eddie which i have no reason to really dispute him and his sym.. but i do dispute Carnage.

Hmm.. not sure about Carnage, but I figured his abilities are identical. Not gonna insist though as I lack proofs. Also there's always the mindcontroling option for Cassidy to win this.

Originally posted by SamZED
Yeah, im talking about planet of the symbiotes. Plus Venom was shown to stretch like Reed Richards across the room for several feet which wouldve been impossible if he's wearing it as cloth. As for when he was stabbed, Kraven shoved a spear through his chest, Venom laughed and almost killed him. There was one guy with poisoned stingers who stabbed Venom in the back, again Venom asked for seconds, and there is the many times Wolverine stabbed him or his identical clone. Heck, just recently Punisher has litterally blown Brock's brains out with a shot gun, and Brcok's bonding with the ani-Venom symbiote is nowhere near as good as it used to be with Venom sym. You cant kill a symbiote or its host by stabbing it.

Don't remember the Kraven incident so I can't comment, when Brock got poisioned by stingers they hardly went in very deep and he still got dropped to his knees as I recall. Wolverine only stabbed him through the gut, and again put venom on his ass.

His clone doesn't count for reasons previously mentioned. And lets face it, the short, chubby lady inside venom at the time was never in danger because none of her limbs/etc were ever long enough to be hit by any one of Wolverine's attacks to the head or when he severed it's arm..

Pretty sure we can't compare anti-venom to the real deal, but I also haven't seen that so I can't comment. Also i think you're chalking up artistic interpretation to somethin way too literal here.

Originally posted by SamZED
Ill try to find the scan, but deep enough to pierce the host definitely, in that book Venom was also drawn to be real skinny. And when he stretched, his legs were on the ground while his hands and head where very high above, I remember it well because he was holding half-naked She-Hulk.

Uhhh.... suspect...

aside from simple artist interpretation being whack as all get out wasn't that Venom pulled from another demension or displaced from time? I mean Sanderson wasn't even sure he COULD communicate and he showed no signs of Brock being in control or that brock was even there...

Originally posted by carver9
UUUMMM , its pretty obvious Flash can go light speed but why did he fight amazo at mach one? The answer is pretty obvious if you ask me and thats the reason why he open himself up to be attacked and hit. Amazo is more powerful than Flash. Why would you use such jobbing instances here anyways.

Originally posted by Mindset
Yea, I always thought Carnage was like that too. He should be to a higher level.

In Maximum Carnage, Carnage was taken down (the battle where they keep firing at him with the sonic gun) Cassidy was lying on the ground completely exhausted with only a few "pieces" of the symbiote attached to him. Shriek then slashes his face and the symbiote regrew from that wound and Carnage was completely recharged.

i dont recall that could it be that the sym merely went inside to hide from the blast? or simply that it was a new fresh symbiot e made from his blood.. question how much damage would cassidy take b4 it is no longer an option.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
His suit feeds off of the life force of others, he did it and they mentioned it in prison right before he was killed (by Sentry), it is also in his bio.

Bendis...

Originally posted by SamZED
Ill try to find the scan, but deep enough to pierce the host definitely, in that book Venom was also drawn to be real skinny. And when he stretched, his legs were on the ground while his hands and head where very high above, I remember it well because he was holding half-naked She-Hulk.

Carnage

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Bendis...



It's vampiric... end of.

uhuh

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
i dont recall that could it be that the sym merely went inside to hide from the blast? or simply that it was a new fresh symbiot e made from his blood.. question how much damage would cassidy take b4 it is no longer an option. http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/8395/scannen0002o.th.jpghttp://img245.imageshack.us/img245/9792/scannen0003j.th.jpghttp://img408.imageshack.us/img408/959/scannen0004r.th.jpg

Originally posted by jinzin
Don't remember the Kraven incident so I can't comment, when Brock got poisioned by stingers they hardly went in very deep and he still got dropped to his knees as I recall. Wolverine only stabbed him through the gut, and again put venom on his ass.

His clone doesn't count for reasons previously mentioned. And lets face it, the short, chubby lady inside venom at the time was never in danger because none of her limbs/etc were ever long enough to be hit by any one of Wolverine's attacks to the head or when he severed it's arm..

Pretty sure we can't compare anti-venom to the real deal, but I also haven't seen that so I can't comment. Also i think you're chalking up artistic interpretation to somethin way too literal here.
The force of hit dropped him on his knees, but the stab itself didnt do anything to him, he puked the venom and asked for more, got up and kicked that guy's ass. Same with Kraven, except Kraven's spear went much deeper, almost through as far as I remember. Will post the scan as soon as I find it.

Um.. actually all Wolverine did was make Venom laugh, he didn't drop him. His attacks were pretty much useless, im talking abot the time they fought before teaming up, all Wolverine did was cut Venom's tongue and stab him in the face, to which Venom replied something like "that supposed to hurt?". Not even gonna mention the waterfall fight, the worst PIS Ive seen, Venom getting koed after falling from waterfall... and even in that poorly written book I dont recall Logan doing any damage with his claws.

And why does the clone thing not count? It does, the clone was a copy of Venom symbiote (a poor one that is, seeing how Venom beat and absorbed it later) but with an old lady as a host and still Wolverine couldnt do anything to put him down just like he couldnt with Venom, not even close. Not to mention Venom can increase his mass and get much bigger in which case just like you said with the old lady Wolverine or ST reaching the host wont be an issue at all, making their attacks even more useless.

What do you mean? Frank put a shotgun to Brock's head, pulled the trigger and we've seen blood and chunks of brain fly away. I think its called Amazing Spider-man: Anti-Venom 2 good read btw, check it out. And comparing anti-Venom to the real deal makes sense since it's a small part of the same symbiote that remained in Brock's blood but got effected by Negative's power.

.

The force of some weak ass robotic legs from a nobody put Venom on his knees? Oh really? Even though they failed to penetrate deep at all?....
Really?
Venom? The guy who almost without a working symbiote, braced an entire ferris wheel? uh-huh.

As I said, haven't seen the Kraven example so I can't comment.

And are you using the Venom/Wolverine 3 part as evidence? What the hell? Wolverine never even landed more than a glancing blow on Venom there, there was NO, nadda, zip, attacks that hit any vital areas, hell he never even attempted to land a penetrating attack in that story, and none of their fighting was a real there... They were purposefully pretending to fight so they could get closer to whatsherface in that arc.
So that does NOTHING to lend credence to your argument...

Their nightmare fight had Venom on his ass after getting gutchecked so not really sure what your talking about there.
so that also does not lend credit to your position....

And neither does using the Venom clone for that matter. Like seriously...... WTF? Just because Brock is a better/more experienced host and was able to beat up the clone with sheer power doesn't somehow conclude that they had the same abilities.
The clone spontaneously developed new attributes in Brock's absence. We already went over some of them.

With Wolverine again.... Had that been a regular symbiote overlapping a typical host the fight hold have been VERY different. Brock NEVER had the power to increase his mass until the end of the Venom: Run storyarc, before that it was dispurst over his body like a suit.

And we've seen MULTIPLES of times where Venom had to draw the suit from one part of his body to expand it or send it to another.
For instance the mace arch, Lethal Protector, Bride of Venom. There's tons of times the symbiote had to stretch itself thin to compensate for being overused. The ability to increase his mass only showed up after Venom and his clone merged, and please don't go back to cartoonish artists interpretations to try and prove differently....

In any case it doesn't matter... Carnage has also never displayed the ability to increase his mass, he's no where near the mass of Venom, and he DOES wear his symbiote like a suit over his body... so that's that.

As for anti-venom... Uhhhh....
That suit has all of his strengths, none of his weaknesses and powers ON TOP OF THAT... you can't honestly compare the two as though they're the same thing... and once again, haven't seen that book so I can't comment further than this.

I've yet to see one credible point to help support your argument here.

Originally posted by jinzin
In any case it doesn't matter... Carnage has also never displayed the ability to increase his mass, he's no where near the mass of Venom, and he DOES wear his symbiote like a suit over his body... so that's that.


Originally posted by Parmaniac
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/8395/scannen0002o.th.jpghttp://img245.imageshack.us/img245/9792/scannen0003j.th.jpghttp://img408.imageshack.us/img408/959/scannen0004r.th.jpg
Originally posted by jinzin

That suit has all of his strengths, none of his weaknesses and powers ON TOP OF THAT... you can't honestly compare the two as though they're the same thing... I agree on that

I'm....ummmm.... Not quite sure what you think that means....

Carnage's symbiote runs through his body and blood stream... already covered that.

Symbiotes reform from sonic attacks once the attacks are finished... already went over that.

All I see here is a team that tried to rely on two weaknesses that carnage had already built immunities to as per his own admission, and failing.

Lol, as it stands to reason, the uber healing factor he should be sporting is nowhere to be seen with an open wound refusing to close on his face hehe.

^ Sorry then I got that wrong, I thought the part with "wears it like a suit" means that he's ONLY having it OVER his body. Nevermind.

oh lol, no not what I was driving at in that particular context.

Originally posted by jinzin
The force of some weak ass robotic legs from a nobody put Venom on his knees? Oh really? Even though they failed to penetrate deep at all?....
Really?
Venom? The guy who almost without a working symbiote, braced an entire ferris wheel? uh-huh.

As I said, haven't seen the Kraven example so I can't comment.

And are you using the Venom/Wolverine 3 part as evidence? What the hell? Wolverine never even landed more than a glancing blow on Venom there, there was NO, nadda, zip, attacks that hit any vital areas, hell he never even attempted to land a penetrating attack in that story, and none of their fighting was a real there... They were purposefully pretending to fight so they could get closer to whatsherface in that arc.
So that does NOTHING to lend credence to your argument...

Their nightmare fight had Venom on his ass after getting gutchecked so not really sure what your talking about there.
so that also does not lend credit to your position....

And neither does using the Venom clone for that matter. Like seriously...... WTF? Just because Brock is a better/more experienced host and was able to beat up the clone with sheer power doesn't somehow conclude that they had the same abilities.
The clone spontaneously developed new attributes in Brock's absence. We already went over some of them.

With Wolverine again.... Had that been a regular symbiote overlapping a typical host the fight hold have been VERY different. Brock NEVER had the power to increase his mass until the end of the Venom: Run storyarc, before that it was dispurst over his body like a suit.

And we've seen MULTIPLES of times where Venom had to draw the suit from one part of his body to expand it or send it to another.
For instance the mace arch, Lethal Protector, Bride of Venom. There's tons of times the symbiote had to stretch itself thin to compensate for being overused. The ability to increase his mass only showed up after Venom and his clone merged, and please don't go back to cartoonish artists interpretations to try and prove differently....

In any case it doesn't matter... Carnage has also never displayed the ability to increase his mass, he's no where near the mass of Venom, and he DOES wear his symbiote like a suit over his body... so that's that.

As for anti-venom... Uhhhh....
That suit has all of his strengths, none of his weaknesses and powers ON TOP OF THAT... you can't honestly compare the two as though they're the same thing... and once again, haven't seen that book so I can't comment further than this.

I've yet to see one credible point to help support your argument here. "uh-huh" come on Jin, I already once told you I joined this forum 5 years ago after reading your comments in "Venom vs Carnage" thead, even have them saved somewhere on my pc. There's no need for the sarcasm, just say you dont agree and ill try to give better arguments.

Venom is strong but that doesnt mean he can't be knocked off balance, especially if attacked from behind, and I believe that's what happened since he showed no signs of injury and instantly got back up after mocking the guy.

Fair enough. In that book Wolverine only cut his face. Doesnt help my case here. I'll drop this one example.

The nightmare thing actually does. They weren't fighting, they were just standing there when Wolverine all of a sudden gutted Venom because he wanted to even the score, his claws went right through, yeah Venom fell from that attack but he didn't see it coming and falling doesn't = getting injured. Venom didn't make a sound, not even an "ouch". Wolverine gutted him, Venom fell, said something like "ok we're even, so no we can get along", instantly got up and swung away like nothing hapened. Wolverine could've as well just PUSHED him on his ass with the same result. It proves my point. And in the very same story Wolverine admitted that he can't possibly kill Venom and only MIGHT be able to hurt him. He knew what he was talking about.

It was a copy. What makes you think that he is better at taking Wolverine's stabs than the original Venom? They had matching size, strength, durability, hf etc. So it can be used as an argument as well. Also in that book the symbiote was drawn so huge it made no difference if the host is an old lady or Brock, they'd still be out of reach. And later Venom merged with that clone anyway.

Sometimes it was shown like a suit, sometimes they were shown like a merged being. Otherwise that She-Hulk incident I mentioned would've been impossible. But Venom was always shown to be able to get stabbed, gutted etc and not give a crap about it even before the run.
What cartoonish interpritation? I never did that. I was always talking about the comics. And Brock forcing to retract the symbiote was only his earlier appearances and when he had to use TOO much webbing leaving himself exposed. And not only after "run", there's a book (im pretty sure it's 616, can post scans) that showed the time when Parker still had the suit, the symbiote left him and battled Sandman (who's grown the size of a small building) The symbiote increased its own size as well and wtfstomped Sandman. That apperantly explains where his "nightmares" about Venom came from. So Venom could increase his mass making all the stabs useless. Not that they bothered him before.

Carnage never did that, true. But wasn't his blood shown to be symbiotic already? So I dont think cutting him would be that effective. i.e when Logan did it even though its been just a shoulder. Also, there's the whole mindcontrol thing. The symbiote has the ability to controle minds and even without leaving the host. Might work on ST if it worked even on Silver Surfer.

Well, other than the "curing" ability and lack of weeknesses Anti-Venom never displayed anything impressive to put him on the same lelvel as classic Venom. Let alone above him.

"I've yet to see one credible point to help support your argument here."
I believe I made several. For Venom-Brock merging together as well as that Venom or his clone (or both of them combined doesnt matter) cant be put down simply by getting cut, gutted, stabbed etc.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/8395/scannen0002o.th.jpghttp://img245.imageshack.us/img245/9792/scannen0003j.th.jpghttp://img408.imageshack.us/img408/959/scannen0004r.th.jpg I didn't know all those characters were German.

Originally posted by Blanket
I didn't know all those characters were German. After re-reading the pages after years in german, for the first time I realized how aweful they were translated. But same goes for german dialogues in current US comics, the latest JLA issue comes to mind.

Two pages of block o' texts have gone by with many participants. It's obviously a lively discussion. But I'm not rereading it all.

Where are we right now on things?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Two pages of block o' texts have gone by with many participants. It's obviously a lively discussion. But I'm not rereading it all.

Where are we right now on things? creed beats carnage because they're roughly equal in terms of strength, durabiltiy, and speed...but creed is far more skilled whereas cassidy is a nutcase with a few screws loose

Originally posted by Starscream M
creed beats carnage because they're roughly equal in terms of strength, durabiltiy, and speed...but creed is far more skilled whereas cassidy is a nutcase with a few screws loose Lol Sabes has not demonstrated anywhere near the strength of Carnage, hell he hasn't shown strength feats like Spiderman, much less Venom or much less Carnage.

Speed, nope, Carnage is faster than Spiderman, where are these speed feats of Sabes.

Durability? Nope, Carnage's suit is vampiric. So Sabes healing advantage is negated. Plus Carnage is pretty much immune to his attacks and can attack him from the inside. Plus cloaking, distance attacks, and everything else he has too many advantages.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Lol Sabes has not demonstrated anywhere near the strength of Carnage, hell he hasn't shown strength feats like Spiderman, much less Venom or much less Carnage.

Speed, nope, Carnage is faster than Spiderman, where are these speed feats of Sabes.

Durability? Nope, Carnage's suit is vampiric. So Sabes healing advantage is negated. Plus Carnage is pretty much immune to his attacks and can attack him from the inside. Plus cloaking, distance attacks, and everything else he has too many advantages. sabes has thrown a cop car up into a 2 story building. besides, carnage doesnt have any impressive strength feats either.

carnage isn't faster than spiderman, at least not enough to make a difference. his speed advantage over creed is negligible at best.

creed is actually more durable. his hf trumps the symbiote because he can rip carnage outta the symbiote or still hurt carnage, the symbiote doesn't heal the host.

Originally posted by Starscream M
sabes has thrown a cop car up into a 2 story building. besides, carnage doesnt have any impressive strength feats either.

carnage isn't faster than spiderman, at least not enough to make a difference. his speed advantage over creed is negligible at best.

creed is actually more durable. his hf trumps the symbiote because he can rip carnage outta the symbiote or still hurt carnage, the symbiote doesn't heal the host. Spiderman has thrown a jeep up a building, and he has also lifted a tank and done some mega high feats, Carnage is vastly stronger than him, he isn't a strength reliant character though.

Carnage is faster.

Durability is different because Carnage's durability is more unconventional and exotic.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master


Durability is different because Carnage's durability is more unconventional and exotic. that doesn't nec make it better

if you impale carnage...cassidys gonna be severely injured

if you impale creed, he can heal relatively quickly

both venom and carnage have shown simple srhedding causes the pain from small force of separation.

both carnage and venom have inflicted said pain by purposely doing that by clawing at one another and tearing pieces off.. their pain thresh hold is also far below sabretooth b/c of this and can be easily exploitable.

Originally posted by Starscream M
that doesn't nec make it better

if you impale carnage...cassidys gonna be severely injured

if you impale creed, he can heal relatively quickly Good luck impaling Carnage. Creed's is better in some ways, but Carnage is in others since he is almost immune to certain types of attacks.

Carnage and Venom problem has always been cis. If carnage used his abilities to there true potential he should destroy sabre-tooth, but sadly it very unlikely that carnage would.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Carnage and Venom problem has always been cis. If carnage used his abilities to there true potential he should destroy sabre-tooth, but sadly it very unlikely that carnage would. cis is part of the character...unlike PIS.

carnage is a nut and oftentimes an idiot. creed is smarter and can find ways to beat carnage.

Ahh man, ZED I'm sorry... That is really flattering. I'm not trying to be rude or mean here I'm just getting agitated because you're using (and keep using) examples from comics that don't support the premise of your points. When you do that you're just spreading propaganda. I'm all for making your character out to be their toughest but this isn't the way to do it.

For instance, the Signs of the Boss ex: I'm sorry, but it's simply very hard to assume that Venom was on his knees due to the force of the hit, especially when you consider his powers, career and generally how weak that spider guy looked. From all appearances I would venture to say Venom fell to his knees due to the initial shock caused by poison that was injected in him. Exampled by the sheer amount of crap he puked out immediately after.
It shows that his symbiote can compensate for poisons sure.. but it doesn't show Venom taking vital damage from stabbing and eviseration. Again those legs didn't penetrate very deep, and they hit Brock all along his back. I never argued that he couldn't tank a lot of damagem but that's not even a lot of damage.. that instance doesn't support your argument fot vitals one way or the other at allllll.

The nightmare example doesn't either. When Wolverine gut checks Venom the next panel Venom is on the ground nursing the hit point.

Again this isn't necessarily a vital shot in comics (I'm going to assume I don't have to start pointing out right now how many people without healing factors have survived those kinds of wounds and gotten up from them no less), yes Venom got up, as one would expect him to, but it did hurt him.
And, when Wolverine surmised that he couldn't kill Venom "here"... he was making a reference to the fact that he might not be able to do it in the dream demon realm they were in at the moment, he also surmised that it wouldn't stop him from hurting Venom, and Venom didn't argue did he?
Either way, it doesn't prove your point because in the nightmare realm according to that arc he necessarily COULDN'T land a vital shot.

The Ongoing clone thing... Again the symbiote was developing powers as it went and became self sufficient and not reliant on a host with the exception of using them for food.
You kill Brock you beat Venom
The clone didn't work that way.
And there you go using artistic interpretations to support your point... that won't fly.

The She-hulk incident... Again very suspect, because that Venom was either displaced in time, or from another demension alltogether,, as were all the heroes and super villains that were summoned in that arc. I'd say that it did not appear as though Brock was anywhere to be seen in that comic, the symbiote sure, but not Brock in it.

Now.. We've seen the symbiote capible of stretching out to become very big looking but it's practically a body suit as soon as it merges with Brock again, always has been that way, I would assume that it's one of the reasons he was impressed with what he could do to his mass during the Madness.

Carnage has never used the telepathic/psyonic abilities of his suit in battle, and telepathic abilities are wasted on Sabretooth as has been proven many many times. The suit does run through his blood stream but still suffers the same aformentioned limitations as they all do. There's no evidence to suggest otherwise.
And like you said, Logan only tagged his shoulder...that's not a vital blow by any means.

Also like you said, Anti-Venom has a "lack of weaknesses" I'm not really sure how you can go on pretending that it's strictly comparible to the good ol' Venom we grew up with.


So far you've proven that Venom can tank most types of Damage and that he has a healing factor, we all knew that. But one knife stab to the shoulder, one gut check, a couple pin points to the back... those are not impressive enough to secure the position that Symbiotes can compensate for vital damages to their hosts.... a position that's already been countered by the deaths of several of Venom's children.... These examples are not only lacking in their ability to support your case but they are also literally NOTHING compared to what Sabretooth will compress into even a minute of battle in h2h in this fight.

I mean I can maintain that the symbiotes can tank a lot of damage for their hosts too, but do you really think they could take having their hosts throat ripped out, brain cut into, heart stabbed, neck broken, having a whole drilled right through their stomaches, or simply being diced into bits on the ground? Because thats the kind of damage Sabretooth can take and likely what kind he'll be apt to also dish out.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Lol Sabes has not demonstrated anywhere near the strength of Carnage, hell he hasn't shown strength feats like Spiderman, much less Venom or much less Carnage.

Speed, nope, Carnage is faster than Spiderman, where are these speed feats of Sabes.

Durability? Nope, Carnage's suit is vampiric. So Sabes healing advantage is negated. Plus Carnage is pretty much immune to his attacks and can attack him from the inside. Plus cloaking, distance attacks, and everything else he has too many advantages.

Carnage hasn't really proven a clear superiority to Spiderman in the speed department..

and again.... when the hell has he ever shown this vampiric ability on the field because I'm pretty sure I've read most of (all of?) his appearances and I haven't seen it...

Originally posted by Starscream M
cis is part of the character...unlike PIS.

carnage is a nut and oftentimes an idiot. creed is smarter and can find ways to beat carnage. That's true.. creed is actually very perceptive of his opponents strengths and weaknesses and can determine these factors in-fight. If Creed sees anything even remotely exploitable here he'll take advantage of it.

Originally posted by Starscream M
creed beats carnage because they're roughly equal in terms of strength, durabiltiy, and speed...but creed is far more skilled whereas cassidy is a nutcase with a few screws loose They're not fairly equal in durability. At all. Sabretooth ain't shrugging off bullets and slashes without the wounds showing for it. The durability of his hide ain't anywhere near the malleable durability afforded to Carnage via symbiote. Carnage also edges him out in strength and speed.

Trying to hide these advantages under the blanket of Carnage isn't a skilled fighter doesn't wash.Originally posted by Battlehammer
Carnage and Venom problem has always been cis. If carnage used his abilities to there true potential he should destroy sabre-tooth, but sadly it very unlikely that carnage would. Again, Carnage doesn't have to fight like we'd want him to in order to beat Sabretooth.

And where are we on the notion that Carnage loses via his throat getting clawed?

carnage takes out the pu$$y cat

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
They're not fairly equal in durability. At all. Sabretooth ain't shrugging off bullets and slashes without the wounds showing for it. The durability of his hide ain't anywhere near the malleable durability afforded to Carnage via symbiote. Carnage also edges him out in strength and speed.

If Sabretooth was only reliant on heavy duty punches, you would have a point on his durability affording him an advantage... but Sabretooth will likely be hacking and slashing, having a ball. The durability to evisceration is for shit as far as the symbiote goes. In terms of blunt force trauma Sabretooth's hide and bones can already compensate for class 60-100 blows and he has his uber healing factor on top of that. He can compensate for that just as well as Carnage can. But in a fight between the two Carnage's durability won't stop Sabretooth's claws.

Carnage edges him out in strength.... so what? Really... So what?
We're talking about a turbo version of Wolverine. Creed can tank superstrength with quite literally a smile on his face and if Ms. marvel couldn't make use of 65+ ton strength fighting Classic Sabes, Carnage has virtually no chance of capitalizing on a strength advantage now.

And IF Carage has any sort of speed advantage it will be so close between the two it won't be the difference maker here.

As of yet I'm not convinced this advantage even exists.

My opinion on this one has been changed. On paper it'd seem that Carnage does enjoy a decent advantage, but in practice I dont see it working as well. He has some glaring vulnerbilities, not the least of which are his weak mind and general cowardice when things are going badly. I will say he has a puncher's chance of spilling Creed's intestines with a single swipe if hes able to land it, but thats seeming more like the exception than the rule. Really Carnage hasnt been written has that impressive of a threat since Maximum Carnage.

Originally posted by jinzin
If Sabretooth was only reliant on heavy duty punches, you would have a point on his durability affording him an advantage... but Sabretooth will likely be hacking and slashing, having a ball. The durability to evisceration is for shit as far as the symbiote goes. In terms of blunt force trauma Sabretooth's hide and bones can already compensate for class 60-100 blows and he has his uber healing factor on top of that. He can compensate for that just as well as Carnage can. But in a fight between the two Carnage's durability won't stop Sabretooth's claws.

Carnage edges him out in strength.... so what? Really... So what?
We're talking about a turbo version of Wolverine. Creed can tank superstrength with quite literally a smile on his face and if Ms. marvel couldn't make use of 65+ ton strength fighting Classic Sabes, Carnage has virtually no chance of capitalizing on a strength advantage now.

And IF Carage has any sort of speed advantage it will be so close between the two it won't be the difference maker here.

As of yet I'm not convinced this advantage even exists. Carnage's nemesis is a foe who hacks and slashes in addition to having comparable speed and greater durability/strength, i.e., Venom. Symbiotes are not weak against evisceration. In fact, their malleable durability and ability to heal damage is tailored for such attacks. Sabretooth's skin and muscle is not harder to pierce than Carnage's. Their comparative durability shouldn't even be in question. Carnage's is superior.

Carnage doesn't need to capitalize on his slight strength advantage to be able to attack Creed effectively with his tendrils or fashioned stabbing/slashing weapons. His slight strength advantage just blunts anything Creed could manage with his own strength respectively.

Same. Carnage doesn't need superior agility to effectively attack Sabretooth. It just blunts Sabretooth's natural agility from being a factor as well.

Carnage's slight advantages in strength and speed respectively do not rise to the level of a game-changing advantage. Nor do they need to. His superior durability based on his symbiote's malleability and resiliency combined with its recuperative abilities + his ability to attack with every inch of his body (along with their vampiric touch) afford him that clear advantage over Sabretooth. This is notwithstanding any red herrings over how Carnage doesn't maximize his symbiote's potential. This is notwithstanding any outrageous claim that Sabretooth need only claw Carnage's throat to kill him.

low pain thresh hold exploitable.

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/117/spidermanunlimited0203jz9.jpg

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Carnage doesn't need to capitalize on his slight strength advantage

I would just like to point out that Sabretooth is only capable of lifting a few tons. Carnage is classified as lifting 30 tons+. I would hardly say that's a slight advantage. With that kind of a gap, I've never really understood why some people on here so easily dismiss it when it comes to these kind of threads.