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finally settling it once and for all. who wins?

They're relatively equal. Although without any gadgets or interference, I would give the slightest edge to Shiva. But that's just imo.

I'm almost certain if you do a search there'll be another one of these...

If they actually fought to a finish...

Batman ftw.

Skillwise, I'd say they're dead even or perhaps a (very) slight edge to Shiva.

However, Bruce's body is superior, physically speaking.

Superior enough to close whatever gap exists, if there is one, and even clinch the win for him - but only for a tiny majority.

With gadgets, this is much more clearly in Bruce's favor.

Gutts jump in and cleave 'em both in half.

i might have to go with bruce 5.5/10.... think bout it batman holds his own against all da top martial artist while holding back. shiva fights 2 kill, while batman doesnt

damn straight!

also, for argument's sake Bruce has no qualms about killing tonight

So Guts just jumps in to kill them... he just appeared through some weird demon magic or something.

Anyways, I would rank Shiva higher in skill, but Batman is stronger, so I think it's pretty close, but I'd give a slight edge to Batman.

Originally posted by Soljer
Skillwise, I'd say they're dead even or perhaps a (very) slight edge to Shiva.

However, Bruce's body is superior, physically speaking.

Superior enough to close whatever gap exists, if there is one, and even clinch the win for him - but only for a tiny majority.

With gadgets, this is much more clearly in Bruce's favor. Couldn't have said it better.

Batman wins 8/10. It's pretty clear in the comics that Shiva is a better pure martial artist. But Bruce has it all over her in strength- in fact, it's not even close. One good punch would rock her... a second would put her in dream land. She would get her licks in first, but the Bat takes the majority.
PS- while it IS true that Shiva fights to kill and Bruce doesn't- this really isn't a disadvantage for him. Everyone he fights is trying to kill him- so he 's quite use to such tactics, and when it comes to inflicting nonlethal pain on someones ass, Batman is the master. He wins.

Originally posted by Cap'n Happy
Batman wins 8/10. It's pretty clear in the comics that Shiva is a better pure martial artist. But Bruce has it all over her in strength- in fact, it's not even close. One good punch would rock her... a second would put her in dream land. She would get her licks in first, but the Bat takes the majority.
PS- while it IS true that Shiva fights to kill and Bruce doesn't- this really isn't a disadvantage for him. Everyone he fights is trying to kill him- so he 's quite use to such tactics, and when it comes to inflicting nonlethal pain on someones ass, Batman is the master. He wins.

Meh, Batman may have the advantage in strength, although Shiva is plenty strong enough to hurt him. Shiva may have the advantage in combat speed and agility, as well as or because of her ability to read movements. Either is fully capable of killing the other.

I don't think they've ever really fought without some sort of interference. Whoever takes the majority, if anyone does, it would be a tiny majority.

With his gadgets Batman would take a healthy majority.

lets not forget that Batman has taken punches from Superman and NOT died...................can't say anything about winding up in the ICU though. I'm talking about sacrifice when berserk supes pwned him up.

Let's also not forget that Lady Shiva has no problem about killing likr Wayne does. Expext her to use fatal moves in the fight like the "Leopard Blow".

Batman not dying from a Supes' punch is PIS at it's finest. No human could ever take a blow like that and live....regardless if Supes' is holding back or not.

nah man. he probably had "bat-superman-punch-absorber" in his utitlity belt at the moment. you gotta use your head.

Shiva owns Batman 8/10. She's faster, more agile, a better fighter, more skilled, and she can read his movements like Cassandra. and don't use that Jason Todd example that took place a long time before she was badass as she is now or the one in S/B where she was mindcontrolled. She's plain better than he is.

Hand to hand Bats 6/10

Weapons Bats 7/10

Shiva is a hair more skilled but Bruce isn't that far behind with his stats being better. IMO

Lady Shiva lost to him twice. once cuz of "boypussy" jason todd and the other time she lost to him cuz (excuse) she was mindcontrolled. like that's an excuse. Batman beats her again and this time decisively so she can shut that big mouth of hers. i hate shiva.
am i the only one who finds shiva ridiculously overpowered and overrated. leopard blow my ass.

~SADO

what's the deal with cassandra?

sorry for the double post, but anyone know where i can get richard dragon from? I want to read about shiva's origin.

mindcontrol is most certainly an excuse. Everyone knows that in comics when someone is mindcontrolled they fight very differently.

Re S/B Shiva's attention was divided between physical combatt with The Detective and Repelling Grodd's psionic energy with Tao Chi and Grud knows what else

In contrast The Bat's mind was uncluttered and his energies were dedicated to one purpose. to kick butt.

In a fight with no catches. Batman with current costume. Shiva wins 9/10.

Whoa.

Shiva wins 8/10? 9/10?

Unlikely. And you'd have a hell of a time trying to justify such claims with on-panel evidence. Especially considering Batman has MUCH better combat feats than Shiva does.

Shiva is unbeatable without a prominent plot device

People make fun of the batkick. In truth it is more mental martial arts/Jedi manipulation of power cosmic.
The Discipline taught to The Bat in Tanggula Shan allows the graduate to manifest precog and matter transfer/inversion capabilities phase shifting etc as well as basic training in manipulating Earth Power/Cosmic energy thru leylines for protection, hexes etc there are also Modules covering person to person interaction

teh Bat is confident in this aspect. Being able to duplicate Motherbox restorative properties and a radar sense etc.

Shiva is StrongER in this area restoring Batgirls memory in full. after a Telepath had selectively erased entire sections of her cerebral cortex is some feat.

I stress without a prominent plot device Batman is getting his head rotated 180 degrees in a hurry.

Shiva>Batman slightly in H2H combat.

Originally posted by shiv
Shiva is unbeatable without a prominent plot device

People make fun of the batkick. In truth it is more mental martial arts/Jedi manipulation of power cosmic.
The Discipline taught to The Bat in Tanggula Shan allows the graduate to manifest precog and matter transfer/inversion capabilities phase shifting etc as well as basic training in manipulating Earth Power/Cosmic energy thru leylines for protection, hexes etc there are also Modules covering person to person interaction

teh Bat is confident in this aspect. Being able to duplicate Motherbox restorative properties and a radar sense etc.

Shiva is StrongER in this area restoring Batgirls memory in full. after a Telepath had selectively erased entire sections of her cerebral cortex is some feat.

I stress without a prominent plot device Batman is getting his head rotated 180 degrees in a hurry.

Okay, this made absolutely no sense whatsoever.

It looks like the rambling of a guy on LSD.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Shiva>Batman slightly in H2H combat.

Based on what, exactly? Outside of the instance where Batman knocked out Shiva in one punch, none of their fights had a conclusive end.

However, Batgirl has defeated Shiva twice. On the other hand, Batman has soundly defeated Batgirl.

http://img352.imageshack.us/my.php?image=78399675lj4.jpg
http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=90158462cr0.jpg
http://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=48786288ml2.jpg

Plus, if you look at their battle/combat feats as a whole, Batman's far outdo hers. You combine this with his physical superiority and his armor which can stand up to the assault of an OMAC, and he takes this fight in the end.

Based on the fact that Shiva has no problems using lethal martial arts moves such as the "Leopard Blow". Now make no mistake, Bruce Wayne knows the move but will not use it due to his vow not to kill. In Batman #427 Bruce dfeated her with the helop of Robin(Jason Todd). In Batman #509 Bruce thinks to himself that Lady Shiva "may well be the best fighter alive." In Batgirl #27 Bruce states "Even I've never beaten Shiva hand-to-hand." In Superman/Batman #3 Bruce manages to gain the upper hand and looks like he would've defeated Shiva for revenge of the beating she gave Catwoman in Hush though I've heard alot of people suggest she may have been under mind control of Grodd because she clearly was not performing at her best.

However you are right with Cassandra Cain. Most evidence leads me to believe that Cassandra Cain>Shiva. However it is unwise to use ABC arguments for because of Wayne beating Cassandra that Wayne>Shiva. There are too many variables in different fights involving different characters.

And if you bring the Batsuit into the fight then yes I would give Bruce the edge. Look at his body. He clearly outclasses her in height, weight, and strength. But she has been known to amp up her chi level too to kick down steel doors and punch through concrete walls.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Based on the fact that Shiva has no problems using lethal martial arts moves such as the "Leopard Blow". Now make no mistake, Bruce
Wayne knows the move but will not use it due to his vow not to kill.

This is directly from the thread starter:

Originally posted by Sado22
damn straight!

also, for argument's sake Bruce has no qualms about killing tonight

Besides, "not going for the kill" has never been a problem for Bruce in the past. He defeats killers and super villains on a regular basis w/o lethal action.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
In Batman #427 Bruce dfeated her with the helop of Robin(Jason Todd). In Batman #509 Bruce thinks to himself that Lady Shiva "may well be the best fighter alive." In Batgirl #27 Bruce states "Even I've never beaten Shiva hand-to-hand." In Superman/Batman #3 Bruce manages to gain the upper hand and looks like he would've defeated Shiva for revenge of the beating she gave Catwoman in Hush though I've heard alot of people suggest she may have been under mind control of Grodd because she clearly was not performing at her best.

Thanks, but you don't have to copy and paste from wikipedia.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
However you are right with Cassandra Cain. Most evidence leads me to believe that Cassandra Cain>Shiva. However it is unwise to use ABC arguments for because of Wayne beating Cassandra that Wayne>Shiva. There are too many variables in different fights involving different characters.

It's probably the closest type of on-panel evidence you'll be able to find in order to determine a winner in a h2h match between the two of them.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
But she has been known to amp up her chi level too to kick down steel doors and punch through concrete walls.

Nothing he hasn't easily accomplished.

Batdude

On panel feats.

an octoganerean swinging Bruce wayne in the air like he weighs a feather

another master demonstrating the tecnique called 'stepping in between the moments'

The use of mental ma Precog to tell the Bat apprentice of Ra's al ghul's future offer of immortality and power.

The theme here is

at the highest levells of MA strength and gadgets and size and gender are irrellevent.

Shiva will always win as she practices the mentall arts. case in point knocking out supergirl returning Batgirls memories etc. Batman largely rejects these arts unless he wants his body to heal itself rapidly, fascillitate an eidetic memory and manifest to quote Black Canary 'radar'

Originally posted by shiv
Batdude

On panel feats.

an octoganerean swinging Bruce wayne in the air like he weighs a feather

another master demonstrating the tecnique called 'stepping in between the moments'

The use of mental ma Precog to tell the Bat apprentice of Ra's al ghul's future offer of immortality and power.

The theme here is

at the highest levells of MA strength and gadgets and size and gender are irrellevent.

Shiva will always win as she practices the mentall arts. case in point knocking out supergirl returning Batgirls memories etc. Batman largely rejects these arts unless he wants his body to heal itself rapidly, fascillitate an eidetic memory and manifest to quote Black Canary 'radar'



You can name different holistic training that each have had in their careers, but in the heat of battle, with fists and kicks flying everywhere, most of what you just named becomes moot.

Also, if I recall correctly, Tim Drake recently defeated Lady Shiva in combat. And like I said, Cassie has defeated Shiva twice, while Bruce has defeated Cassie twice.

Recent showings of Batman have him stalemating the new Karate Kid and easily owning Hawkgirl h2h.

Skill-wise they might be even, but you can't pretend like his striking power and armor doesn't make a difference in this fight. He takes the majority here.

Also, show me scans of Shiva fighting Supergirl.

Supergirl charged at Shiva and Shiva used her strength against her. WW #175.

Ignore shiv. It's more productive.

The four times I can recall of Batman and Shiva encountering each other are a relatively green Shiva testing herself against Batman - O-Sensei told her to stop, the one where Robin interfered, the one where her flail catches onto a truck unluckily and the one by Jeph Loeb. So none of them are particularly conclusive.

Shiva has beaten Cass as well iirc.

When did Tim beat Shiva?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Supergirl charged at Shiva and Shiva used her strength against her. WW #175.

Ignore shiv. It's more productive.



Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The four times I can recall of Batman and Shiva encountering each other are a relatively green Shiva testing herself against Batman - O-Sensei told her to stop, the one where Robin interfered, the one where her flail catches onto a truck unluckily and the one by Jeph Loeb. So none of them are particularly conclusive.

Right, their first three encounters were meh as far as "proving anything" goes.

On the other hand, the S/B case is an interesting one. Many people seem to think that she was definitively mind-controlled in that fight. However, such extrapolation is purely speculative, because they never outright stated so. Batman stated that it was possible she was mind-controlled, but it wasn't conclusive. It could've been either/or.

At that specific time, Batman was pissed off because he was fighting for retribution for what Shiva did to Catwoman in the Hush arc. That, combined with Loeb's natural wanking of Batman (hell, before they even fought, Batman knocked out Solomon Grundy with pressure point strikes... lawlz), and it's possible that Batman beat her straight up.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Shiva has beaten Cass as well iirc.

Correct.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
When did Tim beat Shiva?

Can't remember which specific issue, but it was a OYL comic.

Originally posted by batdude123




Right, their first three encounters were meh as far as "proving anything" goes.

On the other hand, the S/B case is an interesting one. Many people seem to think that she was definitively mind-controlled in that fight. However, such extrapolation is purely speculative, because they never outright stated so. Batman stated that it was possible she was mind-controlled, but it wasn't conclusive. It could've been either/or.

At that specific time, Batman was pissed off because he was fighting for retribution for what Shiva did to Catwoman in the Hush arc. That, combined with Loeb's natural wanking of Batman (hell, before they even fought, Batman knocked out Solomon Grundy with pressure point strikes... lawlz), and it's possible that Batman beat her straight up.



Correct.



Can't remember which specific issue, but it was a OYL comic. Don't you mean he beat Cassie? The only OYL loss for Shiva I can recall is Prometheus and considering his abilities its not bad at all.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
Don't you mean he beat Cassie? The only OYL loss for Shiva I can recall is Prometheus and considering his abilities its not bad at all.

doh

You're right.

Prometheus said at the time that he has updated his files with the top 30 martial artists on Earth, including Shiva. Shiva said she could beat her 'old self'. 3 seconds later, Prom knocks her ass to the ground. Prom was soloing the birds of prey easily, and he only left because the Crime Doctor committed suicide.

I think he said he was bored.

my thoughts exactly


i already said that batman (tonight) has no qualms about killing. he finally grows up. stop using that already. also how many times has bats beaten people who were out there trying to kill him.
oh and i doubt Shiva has more power than Croc. how many times has bats taken blows from croc and gotten right back up?


that's the one thing about asians that really pisses me off. they come to you tell you that weight and physical power don't matter. one week later i have to take them to the nurse cuz they broke their nose in a fight trying to take a guy twice their size on. bruce lee died almost 3 decades ago man...and all that "thin guy can beat a 6foot guy" went with him. as for gender, considering that women have less muscle mass, have very little muscle on the traps, wings and pectorals (which happens to be the part where the punch comes from), weigh less and unless they're wearing a sports bra will have a problem punching...........it tends to matter in a fight. that's why chicks tend to kick more and opt for kickboxing instead of boxing
i'd know cuz i teach boxing.

it is moments like these when i remember my favorite quote from comcis from The Punisher:

"he's using karate. great. the one thing martial arts teacher and unarmed combat instructors always forget to teach you--if you're up against a 6"6 guy weighing 300 pounds....you're gonna lose."

also "Lady Shaver" beat cassie when cassie was having personal issues. cassie kicked her butt later and almost killed her. richard dragon nearly killed her but some idiot interfered and saved her. they continue fighting and richard gets leopard blowed.

btw, when did bruce defeat cassie? i can't seem to remember that.

nuff said


that's why i hate Lady Shaver. she's all talk and writer oraljobs. she's hardly ever pulled off something impressive. and killing oldass Richard dragon (after he nearly killed her) seems to be her most impressive feat. oh and beating unfocused Cassie.

~Sado

Ignore shiv its more productive

rambling

on lsd.



I simply pointed out that without a powerfull plot device a win against Shiva is unattainable.

Batgirl. Family
Prometheus. Shiva's h2h skills vs The h2h skills of: Shiva, Batman, Bronze Tiger, Wonder Woman, Batgirl and 25 other top tier MA. PIS.
Robin. amped by Aramilla, a chemical concoction granting superspeed
Batman. helpfull diversions from Grodd and Robin

Originally posted by shiv


People make fun of the batkick. In truth it is more mental martial arts/Jedi manipulation of power cosmic.
The Discipline taught to The Bat in Tanggula Shan allows the graduate to manifest precog and matter transfer/inversion capabilities phase shifting etc as well as basic training in manipulating Earth Power/Cosmic energy thru leylines for protection, hexes etc there are also Modules covering person to person interaction

teh Bat is confident in this aspect. Being able to duplicate Motherbox restoraative properties and a radar sense etc.

Shiva is StrongER in this area restoring Batgirls memory in full. after a Telepath had selectively erased entire sections of her cerebral cortex is some feat.



The way I said it could easily confuse non DC readers. I accept that.

Many posters ignore the Mentall arts.
and yet The batkick is more Mentall than muscle.

Batman's first lesson in Mental Arts was his radar.
His second was Matter/transfer inversion. I say transfer because scientifically you can change the size of an object but to reduce its mass you have got to be putting it somewhere else. In his second lesson "The Flying Initiation" he escapes death by reaching a state of weightlessness. saving the life of another apprentice who falters in this procedure.

Leylines, The lazarus pits, call it Earth power, call it Power cosmic call it The force Call it The Path of Personal Power, whatever.
The mechanics Governing its use for protection, hexes and precognition and power amping -Tiger Fist or in Batman's case "The Batkick" were communicated to him by H'sien Tan.

The bat largely rejects these teachings, with a few exceptions

like:: protecting Wayne Manor and the cave from the occult

and:: stealth against Darkseid Superman Amazo Luthor Flash WW Jim Gordon.
Keeping MM out of his brain e.t.c.

Lady Shiva in contrast is uninhibited in this area of expertise.

Originally posted by Sado22
btw, when did bruce defeat cassie? i can't seem to remember that.

http://img352.imageshack.us/my.php?image=78399675lj4.jpg
http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=90158462cr0.jpg
http://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=48786288ml2.jpg

Originally posted by Sado22
nuff said


that's why i hate Lady Shaver. she's all talk and writer oraljobs. she's hardly ever pulled off something impressive. and killing oldass Richard dragon (after he nearly killed her) seems to be her most impressive feat. oh and beating unfocused Cassie.

~Sado

Losing to Prometheus is not a low showing. 30 of the best in the world, plus her are in his helmet.

Originally posted by shiv
Ignore shiv its more productive

rambling

on lsd.



I simply pointed out that without a powerfull plot device a win against Shiva is unattainable.

Batgirl. Family
Prometheus. Shiva's h2h skills vs The h2h skills of: Shiva, Batman, Bronze Tiger, Wonder Woman, Batgirl and 25 other top tier MA. PIS.
Robin. amped by Aramilla, a chemical concoction granting superspeed
Batman. helpfull diversions from Grodd and Robin



The way I said it could easily confuse non DC readers. I accept that.

Many posters ignore the Mentall arts.
and yet The batkick is more Mentall than muscle.

Batman's first lesson in Mental Arts was his radar.
His second was Matter/transfer inversion. I say transfer because scientifically you can change the size of an object but to reduce its mass you have got to be putting it somewhere else. In his second lesson "The Flying Initiation" he escapes death by reaching a state of weightlessness. saving the life of another apprentice who falters in this procedure.

Leylines, The lazarus pits, call it Earth power, call it Power cosmic call it The force Call it The Path of Personal Power, whatever.
The mechanics Governing its use for protection, hexes and precognition and power amping -Tiger Fist or in Batman's case "The Batkick" were communicated to him by H'sien Tan.

The bat largely rejects these teachings, with a few exceptions

like:: protecting Wayne Manor and the cave from the occult

and:: stealth against Darkseid Superman Amazo Luthor Flash WW Jim Gordon.
Keeping MM out of his brain e.t.c.

Lady Shiva in contrast is uninhibited in this area of expertise.

...................Yep. Definitely want to ignore that. I smoke weed, and even I can't figure out what the hell you're talking about. durpot

Sado: Even though you are completly correct with your post, applying real world physics to a world of fiction never works out. In real life, a man of Bruce wayne's height/weight/ability agaisnt any women regardless of skill would win 10/10. If you look at the world of MMA (UFC,PRIDE,K1) which is IMO the best indication of pure and raw H2H combat, you will see how increasing absurd the idea of "women vs men" in combat really is. Hell, Bruce doesn't even need to resort to striking since he can easily just go for a takedown and apply some BJJ...and believe me weight really factors in when u get on the ground (10 pounss is even considered a big advantage). So basically what Im saying is that a match like this would favor Bruce considerably, however in the world of fiction anything goes...literally.

i know man, i was deliberately talking about that as a side remark. didn't intend to bring that into comci world. my bad.


yeah but didn't she attack him cuz she was too full of herself? i read that a while ago and only cuz i had nothing to do. she was saying something about how he can't beat her cuz she's new or that he was fake...or something like that.
....and then the BOP had to come and peal her off the ground
dumbbitch


hysterical

Originally posted by Sado22
i know man, i was deliberately talking about that as a side remark. didn't intend to bring that into comci world. my bad.


yeah but didn't she attack him cuz she was too full of herself? i read that a while ago and only cuz i had nothing to do. she was saying something about how he can't beat her cuz she's new or that he was fake...or something like that.
....and then the BOP had to come and peal her off the ground
dumbbitch


hysterical She said she could beat her old self . I found that fight pretty funny.

that woman is retarded, seriously. some of her lines are just plain dumb...as if the writer watched a badly dubbed chinese movies and actually took them seriously.

~Sado