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WHO THE HELL IS THAT????????????????

A Jedi master who was on the counsel during "The Phantom Menace", then he supposedly died? What's up with that?

I don't believe he was on the Council.

Sifo-dias

And Council...

Okay, spelling aside, what are your thoughts?

One of my stoner friends and I were watching Episode II the other day, and he thinks Sifo-Dias is Dooku. I don't think so. Because Yoda and Mace knew who Dooku was, and they had a surprised look on their face when Obi-wan mentioned him.

So what's going on with that?

No, clearly not Dooku. This one is a little bit of a mystery but it is possible that Sidious simply used the name of a recently dead Master to make his order. The name similarity is disturbing, though.

Could be more to it.

I agree with Ush here

on pm...in the council the guy with the looong neck maybe it was him....the guy just lookin around..maybe..
meditate on this i will

No, those members all have names and Sifo-Dyas was not one of them.

We will know when we have seen epIII....hopefully

was Jedi Master Sifo-dias a "real" person or was Obi-wan making that up???

Was OBI-WAN making him up? That doesn't work at all! Are you sure you meant Obi-Wan?

I htink so.......I dunno...

You mean the Kaminoans, Julie. Obi-Wan found out about Sifo-Dyas purchasing the clones from the Kaminoans.

I think it's just Darth Sidious under an assumed name of a recently deceased Jedi Master.

when ob1 met the kaminoes he appeared to know who sifo dyas was, i asume thats what julie ment.

just had a thought, if sifo dyas was a jedi master then he would have a had a padawan, maybe his padawan was the one deleting the archives???

He MIGHT have had a Padawan. There is nothing we know of that says he HAS to have done.

Why should his padewan been corupted?

Well, the fact that Obi-wan recognized the name Sifo-dias means that he did exist. When Kenobi transmitted the message to Yoda and Mace, they exchanged a look that clearly showed recognition as well (almost of great importance of Sifo-dias).

I'm pretty sure it was Darth Tyrunus (Dooku) who recruited the planet of the clones and Fett. Jango even admitted to it; "I was recruited by a man named Tyrunus on one of the moons of Viego" So I think Dooku erased the files, being an ex-jedi and all.

its yoda

. . . . . . .. . . . . . Don't be stupid, my friend.

It could also be that Sifo-Dyas died right before TPM... they chronology is not so explicitly clear here. For certain Yoda and Mace knew him.

Maybe Maul killed Sifo Dyas... a longshot I know but he(Maul) must have tested his fighting skills before he met Obi W and QGJ

Then it must have been clear the Sith were back. So I doubt that, but good attempt. It's odd.

BTW, can anyone change the title to this thread. That wrong spelling makes me thing it's about a Master Syphilis...

Yeah but if he was killed who would know how he was killed, siths are about stealth.
Even though Maul says finally we will reveal ourself for the jedis doesnt mean the siths haven encountered jedis before this. Only thing with TPM is that QGJ lived to tell, and they wasnt sure it was a Sith after the first encounter

I think the most likely interpretation of the TPM lines is that Maul and Sidious really had done nothing at all to the Jedi yet. Maul was enthusiastic about striking that first blow.

maybe.. short lived apprentice though.
He must have learned his fighting skills somewhere and on someone

Always been a big puzzle, that one.

But who says Sifo-Dyas was killed. Maybe he died of old age, that happens to Jedi as well.

maybe

Was anyone saying for certain he was killed?

No but in a violent galaxy one can only guess. Kind of hard to imagine jedi`s dying of old age

Yoda did.

I don't know who he is, but I wish I did. That question has bugged me for months.

different times To, Yoda was hiding. He wasnt in the "open" exposed to threats whatever they might be

If Jedi would not die of old age, then the galaxy would be swarming with Jedi, piling up for thousands of years. They're'd be a lot more Jedi than a 'mere' 10,000.

No one said Sifo-Dyas was killed, only that he died.

I think we can take all that as read...

*starts reading*

Good boy.

I don't think Finti was suggesting immortality, just that with the life a Jedi leads, a violent death is more likely.

Does it say anywhere that the Force extends life then?

Not that I know of. You COULD interpret some of Yoda's final words that way, but I do not think so.

Nah, I don't buy that either.

This is exactly what I ment

the emperor extended his life using the force!

We don't know that. It's possible, of course.

Obi Wan said to the Kaminoans that Sifo Dyas was killed almost ten years ago

Seems clear...

you spell it Master Sipho Dyas (trust me i looked it up). He must have died during a small battle within the ten year gap.

Wrong, I am afraid. The website clearly spells it Sifo-Dyas.

maybe the website you went to but the one i went to spelled it sipho dyas but oh well

The STAR WARS website. Pretty authoratitive.

indeed, and I guess the novel wouldnt be allowed to misspell it either

Sifo-Dyas it is. Indeed.

OB1 was under the impression that Sifo-Dyas died BEFORE the order for the Clone Army was placed...

I had not realised the similarity of the two names until just now! You may have something there!

Darth Sidious is one crazy punk to take on the Jedi Council.
He probably is Sifo-Dyas.

He can;t actually BE Sifo-Dyas. The other Jedi knew who Sifo-Dyas was, and presumably he did not look like Palpatine.

To clear things up once and for all, I just finished watching the movie again and two things: He (SD) was on the jedi council , the kaminoan talking with OB1 says ,"isnt master SD still not a member of the jedi council?" and SD was "killed" , he did not just die! OB1 tells the kaminoan that Master SD was "killed about 10 years ago"

I still think we are in for a surprise when the truth about him comes out

Obi wan also question Yoda about SD being dead

Which is the clue of course. The Kaminoans clearly had no idea what was going on in the JC. Their validation of SD being a member of the JC could be based on a lie by Sidious of course. The fact that OB1 and Yoda seem to remember him, makes him a real person other than Sidious himself who is of course Palpy, known to all.

And the fact that SD was killed, doesn't mean he was in their perception murdered. He could have been killed in a speeder accident for all we know.

But more likely we are meant to have the impression that he died violently.

Are we? I'm not so sure, but it is clear there is something fishy about him or his death. Maybe he died under mysterious circumstances.

And I'd say a speeder accident is pretty violent.

Yes he could have been "killed" in a speeder accident, he also could have been "killed" when a ewok fell on his head!

Im pretty sure we will find out that "killed" means by someone, NOT in a speeder accident!

OB1 was under the impression that he died nearly ten yrs ago. Sifo-dyas might be dead, or he still might be alive. No one will know, this is just one of the annoying things producers thought of to make us think like crazy.

Obi Wan actually says that SD was killed almost ten years ago to the Kaminoan Prime minister.

Yup, we know.

seems like a lot dont know, at least that what it sounds like in some of the replys

All we know is that SD died and probably under some mysterious circumstances. I doubt he was killed by a Sith in a lightsabre fight, because then all red flags in the JC would have gone up ages ago.

he is really Sideous, under the name Sifa-Dias. he faked his own death, and went on to be Darth Sideous while pretending to be head of the Senate.

No no no... he can't have BEEN Sifo-Dyas who faked his own death; he would have been recognised.

Indeed. I agree with Ush.

Darth Sidious is one crazy fool to take on the Jedi Council.

He's doing a pretty good job so far.

See Ush, Arien is picking up on my idea too!

so? you are both wrong then

VERY wrong.

Yes. Very wrong. I don't know what you're talking about anyway.

Who does?

Arien and I do! the darkside clouds your minds, yeeessss, minds are clouded, mmmmm, yeees!

....
the force doesn't seem to work for me

Which explains everything.

" you will give me 10 bucks"

Try again.

I heard another interesting theory on Sifo-Dyas: what if he's none other than Qui-Gon Jinn??? Bit weird, but he DID die almost ten years before AOTC...

Not sure what to think of it, but that'd mean some ramifications for the story. QGJ a traitor???

Most of these theories do seem to invovle the Jedi not actually knowing who each other are...

Very true, though GL probably wouldn't have Qui-Gon become the traitor.

Maybe the Jedi should have identification cards strapped around their necks. They wouldn't have that problem anymore. Or maybe those eye scanners from Minority Report...

I dunno. The only one not knowing that QGJ is Sypho-Dyas would be OB1... Or as someone who liked this idea said: "That's why Yoda and Mace look at each other like that: oh no, not him again."

Utterly ridiculous.

Han Solo voice "I KNEW you were gonna say that!"

I sure have a way with people...

thats what i thought at first

Good. It's an interesting theory and without further proof, it's a bit early to condemn it as "utterly ridiculous". Unless you can provide concrete evidence who SD really is, until then with canon sources only, we can be sure that QGJ did indeed die round and about "ten years ago." So I still consider it a possibility. Maybe an unlikely one, but not per se utterly ridiculous. After all Dooku hinted at a possibility of QGJ joining him and we also know the Sith use 95% truth and a bit of lies to seduce people...

Not early at all. I state with confidence that it is utterly ridiculous that QGJ led a double life as a Jedi Master named Sifo-Dyas, that Obi-Wan knew Sido-Dyas existed, yet did not know Qui-Gon was him.

We ALSO know, from GL's comments, that the bad guys start looking at the Cloning possibility AFTER the failure of the droids in TPM. QGJ would have been too dead to place such an order as Sifo-Dyas. Sifo-Dyas could be being impersonated, of course, but if he is being impersonated then him being QGJ becomes not only ridiculous but also pointless.

Your Dooku link is bad as well. Dooku did not join Sidious until after Mauls' death. So any idea of QGJ having done any work for his former Master in the cause of evil is hogwash.

Well u see there's a subtle trick there ... u see ... Obi Wan says SiphoDyas died 10 years back ... now ... Around the time of the events of TPM, before QGJ got killed ... we know that Dooku was part of the Jedi order. We also know that Qui Gon was a jedi that wouldnt neccessarily follow the wishes and ways of the Jedi Council, but often do things his way, even if it wasnt exactly in accord with the ideas of the Jedi Council. It would not be too much to assume that by this time, Count Dooku would also be of such a bent of mind in this respect ... i.e. willing to do things differently then from the ways of the Jedi Council if he felt it neccessary ... remember that by this time he was already disillusioned about the way in which the Jedi Council functioned, and its place in the galactic heirarchy ... ( Qui Gon's death was what basically snapped his patience and caused him to leave the council and the order ). Now ... it is possible ( maybe not PROBABLE ) ... but possible ... that QGJ and Dooku, with the idea of building an army of clones, to strengthen the military strength of the Jedi Order, approach the jedi order with this idea ... and the jedi order turn them down. However, Dooku and Qui Gon decide to go their own way, and take matters into their own hand ... and Qui Gon, secretly does commission an army of clones from the planet of Kamino ... under the name Sipho Dyas. Now u see ... at this time, it wasnt like Dooku had yet left the jedi order, and turned to the dark side ... nor that QGJ was covertly helping the forces of darkness. At this time, it was simply a move that both thought of doing, for the good of the jedi order. The jedi council DO find out about this, and obviously would decide to take punitive action against Dooku and QGJ ... however, unfortunately, before they could get to this matter, Qui Gon gets killed by Maul. For Dooku, this is what snaps his patience ... and upset at his former padawan's death ... ( and the fact, that the council might take action against him for disobeying them and going ahead with the clone army order ), quits the Jedi order. The council, apart from the death of Qui Gon, also announce the death of the jedi Sipho Dyas - the pseudonym that Qui Gon used.

The army that Dooku and Qui Gon secretly commisioned, for the benefit of the jedi order, ultimately is used by the forces of darkness i.e. Dooku himself who turns to the dark side, and his master Darth Sidious.

I agree this theory has difficulties in it, but inspite of its unlikelyhood, it does have possibilities, and it cant be discarded at this stage. Because it is a significant co-incidence that Sipho Dyas and Qui Gon both died around the same time .... both were " killed ".

This theory also does fit some of the facts well, e.g. the look that Yoda and Mace Windu exchange when Obi Wan asks about Sipho Dyas. It would be reasonable to assume, that the jedi order would hush up Qui Gon's use of a false pseudonym " Sipho Dyas " - maybe he did it on more than one occassion. They hushed it up, so as to prevent other jedi from becoming insurgent in their ways, influenced by Qui Gon, and also to sweep the incident under the carpet to prevent a "scandal" in the jedi ranks. So obviously, 10 years later, when the ugly head of the fictitious master sipho-dyas rears its ugly head - that look between Yoda and Windu.

Strange that Obi knew when SD was killed but didnt know what he looked like!!!!!!!!!!!!! The theory that QGJ should be SD is to dumb to be right. The JC didnt know about the building of the clone army at all so an early idea of a clone army would have made the JC aware of that possibility and made it harder if not impossible for the Siths to create a secret clone army.

Obi wan was a padawan of QGJ so he would have followed him around on all missions, how should QGJ be able to go to Kamino without Obi Wan

Good points. Its true this theory has a lot of difficulties ... but there are two coincidences, which are significant here ... one of the two must have a bearing on the solving of the mystery ... 1. That Sipho-Dyas died at about the same time as Qui Gon Jinn - and both were " killed " ... the other coincidence is the name itself - Sipho Dyas and Sideous. This is a mystery for the fans to solve ... and these are two clues that I can think of ... of course a simple arbitrary explanation of Sipho Dyas being a renegade Jedi who got killed is the most basic, simple and fits all the facts. However its also boring !

Two of the difficulties that u point out Finti can be accounted by a simple twist ...

Sipho Dyas was a cover name or non-de-plume ( as in espionage procedure ) used by Qui Gon on secret missions known only to a couple of people in the Jedi Council ( i.e. Yoda and Windu and Dooku who at the time was a part of the Jedi Council ) ... and himself - not even Obi Wan. There were over 200 jedi at the height of the Jedi order ... Obi Wan could not possibly be expected to know ALL the jedi by face ...it would be theoretically possible to create a fictitious cover for Qui Gon with the name Sipho Dyas. Say a lesser not to well known jedi master, from an out of the way part of the galaxy ... deliberately made out unimportant and therefore inconspicuous. The death of Qui Gon in action, would also require the jedi order to list the fictitious master " Sipho Dyas " as dead - cause of death ? " killed in action ". Of course the truth about the covername Sipho Dyas would only be known to three people in the Jedi Order i.e. Yoda, Windu and Dooku. Hence the look between Yoda and Windu at that name.

Now about the commisioning of the clone army unknown to Yoda and Windu .... it would be a secret act between Dooku and Qui Gon. They were both alike in that they disagreed with the policies and modus operandi of the Council ... and they would assume that an official request to commision a clone army for the jedi would be met with refusal by the council ... hence Qui Gon would, using his cover name, commission an army from the kaminoans, and this would be known now ONLY to Count Dooku, who would later use the clone army against the jedi, after his turn to the dark side.

It IS far fetched, but with certain manipulations, such a twist would be possible in the story line and would be FAR more interesting then a lame ( albeit perfectly satisfactory ) resolution of the mystery by making Sipho Dyas an actual master, that secretely commisioned a clone army, and subsequently got killed in action.

It's all extended nonsense. You can make ANY plot come true with enough ludicrous rationale, but to any reasonable observer such a plot remains utterly ridiculous, doubly so from a filmmaking viewpoint

The ten years back thing is PURELY a reference to a plotline that began just after TPM.

BTW, what makes you think the Order is only 200 strong?

If you ask me, this would not be a more 'interesting' twist than the conventional explanation; it would be pointless and extremely silly and crap. "SD was Qui-Gon? What sort of stupid shit is THIS?" The only reason you would be disappointed by any conventional explanation is because the whole thing has been over-analyzed and now you want a silly twist just for the sake of it. If there is going to be a twist, it is far more likely that Sifo-Dyas is not dead, and something releated to that.

BTW, two things you are forgetting, Harmax. The template for the commissioned clones was Jango. Jango was recruited by Dooku AFTER he fell to the Dark Side.

Therefore, work on the Clones did not begin until after QGJ's death. And you can make another silly rationale like "Ah, but they were PLANNING it before..." but it would remain just that- very silly. If you want me to say it is possible, then yes, it is possible. But is it credible? No.

Secondly, Sifo-Dyas is described as a Council Member. Obi-Wan does not dispute this. It is, obviously, not possible that QGJ was also a Council Member, nor that Obi-Wan would not have known his face.

It is also worth noting that Obi-Wan says to Mace and Yoda that he thought Sifo-Dyas had died BEFORE the point the Clones were ordered.

Everything we have from the films clearly indicates that the whole thing was a plot that was planned and put together AFTER TPM before it and this whole theory is just a pile of horse dung, and those proposing it know it. QGJ had nothing to do with that army.

Incidentally, if I suspect silly theories are being put forward just to wind people up, then I will close this thread.

Oooooh.... a threat!

But come on, this is good stuff. THere are possibities here and without any other clue, we can theoreticise about this. It's fun, it excercises the brain and gives a a stage to nitpick about unlikely but not entirely impossible theories. Better than sitting around and be bored until spoilers come in...

Good show, Harmax!

Good show? Anyone can make an extended justifcation of anything they want like that. Like all the people who justified Obi-Wan being Luke's father or Amidala being a Sith over time. I make justified objection to anyone presenting this sort of thing as a serious possibility, and I also feel justified in rejecting it as ridiculous. It's not as it you even believe it.

I find nothing at all interesting in such vague straw-grasping. If you want to make up ridiculous scenarios, feel free, but don;t pretend there is any validity to them.

...really

Gosh yes; obviously Obi-Wan sleeps with Amidala and begats Luke and sends Anakin evil (and Amidala was in fact the Chosen One and passes that to Luke), and equally obviously Amidala is Sidious' agent in turning Anakin evil.

You can't disprove any of it from what has been said, so long as you write off half as what is said as lies and make a hundred suppositions of your own.

This is why I discount wild theories like this one, which is entirely based on the flimsy premise that QGJ and Sifo-Dyas died around the same time.

Well, at least there is ONE canonical clue... Can't say that about the other ones. That was PURE conjecture. At least here we have one clue that might, however unlikely, point to a relationship.

A canonical clue that they died near the same time to form a conjecture contradicted by many other things? Strikes me as being worth nothing.

I dont think Ush likes me too much. I don't think I give a s@#$.

this is interesting.... harmax's theory made me think back to the conversation between OB1 and QGJ in TPM (whoa, lots of letters, lol) where OB1 commented that QGJ could be on the Jedi Council if only he obeyed their mandates... if harmax is right, then the reason that QGJ wasn't on the council would have been, not so much his disobedience, but that the council needed him to be their prime operative in touchy situations... from what we have seen it seems that Jedi Council members dont often leave the temple, (they do in AOTC, but that was a drastic situation that required immediate action with powerful Jedi) and thus they would want a jedi that they trusted, and with capable powers, to be a special type of informant, with the nom de plume of SD, like Harmax suggested...
in addition, i personally do not think that these predictions are true, but the conversation and speculation is interesting enough to keep me hypthisizing for awhile, lol

I think this happens to be a fascinating debate. Now I have heard a feasible reason for connecting Qui-Gon and that other dude as being the same person! And it would explain the looks on Yoda and Windu's faces at hearing the name from Obi-Wan! Maybe Qui-Gon did assist his former master(Dooku) before his untimely death,by ordering the clone armies. And afterwards, Dooku left the Order ,sickened by the lack of concern about his former student's death and warnings of the sith's return. Then he would meet Sidious who used his anger to turn him into his own apprentice in the dark side of the Force.

It;s not a feasible reason at all; it is an almost arbitrary connection based purely on them being Jedi that died in roughly the same year, and having to ignore that Sifo-Dyas has been called a Council Member and this fact not corrected and that we are told Sifo-Dyas died before the Clones order was made.

Let's get two facts that are almost 100% certain here made plain:

1. QGJ had nothing to do with the Clones
2. No-one started anything about the Clones plan until AFTER TPM was all done

Come on, it is merely speculation either way! Unless of course you have personal assurances from Mr Lucas to support your own theories,thus making ours incorrect? And if it is revealed in Episode III that there is a connection? What would your stance be, my friend? Let us not pick at each other over details!

Isn't that the point? And I do not need personal assurances to point out the enormous logical problems in the theory- just like with the Amidala is a Sith thing that I mentioned before.

Well, on that issue I happen to agree totally with you! All right, let us say you have made several excellent points, and might I also say I do not personally think that is the answer to the clone mystery. I was attempting to spark some more debate, which it is obvious I have done. I am sure that Mr Lucas has probably something more spectactular in mind for III.

I am not sure about spectacular, as there is not that much room left for a big twist.

So do you feel he should have started the prequel films with a grown up Anakin who was already Obi-Wan's apprentice and a great star pilot? I admit back in 1994(?) I had a weird dream where I was imagining how Anakin fell to the dark side of the Force. And it was nothing at all like the events in either of the two films so far!! In my dream, he was much older,used the Force for good, and was part of a Rogue Squadron-type group of interstellar pilots and navigators. Isn't that strange?? And yes, Palpatine was lurking in the shadows of the local drinking establishment!!

So certain are you. There is nothing substantial about these being facts. You might be right, probably even so, strictly speaking it's still possible. Stranger things have happened.

For one, tehre are two dates giving for SD's death: 10 years ago and ALMOST 10 years ago. Obviously, OB1 isn't to sure about his chronology.
Secondly, who is to say SD was actually a JC memebr for real. He might have been real, but with his track record so far he might have well been lying. So possibly no real JC member and a death (almost) 10 years ago. There is a slight possiblility for a connection. Now that slight possibility is a fact!

yeah and then willow pops up as an ewok Jedi

"Then , my friends, we have truly reached...the end of the world!"

end of the world

Still waiting for Val Kilmer to show in the PT...

Nooooooo!!

Hehehehehe

Well u know, I agree that this whole hypothesis IS far fetched ... BUT ... the point is, it's not IMPOSSIBLE ... and it's a really cool twist to the story line ... and it would be possible to make it fit around the storyline as it stands presently.

The thing is ... the point of forums such as these .... the whole FUN part of having forums such as these, is that a group of people can speculate, and conjecture ... and try and come up with different interesting ways of solving a mystery, that has been created for the consumption of exactly such a group of people.

So I dont see the point in saying ... well its too improbable so dont discuss it - only stick to plausible and " safe " speculations ... I mean ... if thats the case ... then wheres the fun in having a forum ?

you have your view of the "fun" and others have their view. If you want to speculate the far fetched there is an EU forum too

Quite, however he is right. But the forum is also fun to contradict people....

And boy is it fun to contradict people! I've been doing it all my life!

No you haven't

And how would you know if I have or have not? Using the Force, are you?

No he's not using the force, he's using contradiction.

Yup, someone wasn't paying attention...

yes we were

No we weren't.

Well I was paying close attention to every syllable Ushgarak was saying.I am sure we could go round and round on this one!

no we cant

Of course we can!

No, we cannot.

Why not?

Why would you?

Why would you not?

I've heard in Episode3 that we will find out all the info we need is that true??...

Think again. Obi-Wan said "Master Syfo-Dias was killed almost ten years ago!" So he was killed. I think Master Syfo-Dias was a Jedi who was killed around the time of TPM and Palpatine used that name and told the Kaminoens to create the clone army.

I know this is not the EU but I got an idea none the less, what if Sifo-Dyas was the Jedi Master that trained Ventress? Could be possible...maybe.

Interesting theories abound. I think it keeps the life in this place. But I must say... Ush, aren't you being a bit... totaltarian? You blatantly put down everyone's ideas as not worth time and threaten to close the thread. Sounds like you shouldn't have so much power; you're more likely to piss people off or scare them away then to encourage civil conversation and creativity on this forum. I must say I'm unimpressed.

Dooku-sifo-dyas......you got that from SS.com didnt you? Thats the EXACT same thing he had/has on his site. If you havent already, you'll find that Supershadow is as about a credible source as you local street bum.

Janus.....i must agree with you, then if you do prove him wrong, he wont even concede, he'll just not post anymore....and i do see how his posts/attitude towards other posters could really..."stir up shit"....

Well, I would hope that one could be civil towards others of a different opinion. I couldcome on here and say I don't like the idea of red lightsabers and honestly, I am totally entitled to my opinion. No sense in calling me ridiculous or threatening to close the thread. That's on the maturity level of a child, really.

uh.......what? who was that directed at and why? I hope not me.....

Not you, no. I was a bit vague on that one. Sorry.

ive said it before and ill say it again....its all gravy like turkey fat.

maybe sifo diaz was another fallen jedi like count dooku.

or count dooku could just lie about his name. Since palps would be supreme dude he would be watched like anna kournikova's ass during a tennis match.

who loves that metaphor?

I think the logical choice for the one to be Master Siphi-Dias would be Darth Maul...but thats TOO obvious. Im hoping that Grand Moff Tarkin is Master Sipho dias.