Thanos HotU vs. PR Beyonder

Juntai

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is different:

A little bit of cheesy trivia. smile

........................................................................................

The Heart of the Universe (Infinite) ... from the End:

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/4029/marveluniversetheend3p2hu8.th.jpg

........................................................................................

The Heart of the Universe from?

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/4561/heartfr8.th.jpg

........................................................................................

Trivia. 131 Interesting.
Two different hearts?

Mr Master

Originally posted by Juntai
Interesting.
Two different hearts?
Not exactly, that's supposed to be the Universe's actual beating "Heart"
but I thought it was interesting, that it was coined the same.
I suppose as in Eternity's (if he had one)

Still, trivia. cool

Power16

I wouldn't mind hearing about this new Beyonder revelation.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Power16
I wouldn't mind hearing about this new Beyonder revelation.

...............................................................................................

According to Jim Shooter

(Editor-in Chief of Marvel during Secret Wars I-II)
Creator/Writer of Beyonder/Secret Wars I-II)

...............................................................................................

Get's interviewed ... about the Beyonder by Marvel Age:

Marvel Age is an official Marvel title, created to strictly discuss Marvel stories,
and other intricacies concerning Marvel comics.

...............................................................................................

Jim Shooter on Beyonder:

Jim states:

1. Beyonder "is a Multi-verse."

2. Beyonder "was like God before there was Genesis."

3. Beyonder's discovery of "our Universe ...

.... was like when inventor Leeuwenhoek, looked through his micro-scope ...

.... and discovered little paramecia swimming in a drop of water ... "

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3339/jim1wp8.th.jpg

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/7402/jim2mj1.th.jpg

...............................................................................................

According to Jim:

The Marvel Universe was like Paramecium (a single cell organism)
swimming in a drop of water,
while Beyonder was an infinite Multiverse.

...............................................................................................

What stands out for me,

"like GOD before there was Genesis"

Blasphemous ... but speaks volumes.

Power16

Interesting! Classic Beyonder sure was a beast.

leonidas

Originally posted by Mr Master

"like GOD before there was Genesis"

you're contradicting yourself -- you claim thanos was omnipotent. by definition beyonder could not be anything BUT below him. they can't even be equal, since omnipotent by definition is singularly supreme. clearly beyonder wasn't omnipotent either since he didn't even have knowledge of our universe.

and being 'like' god is not the same as BEING god, which is what you claim thanos was. smile

(not that i believe thanos was omnipotent of course. wink

)

Mr Master

Originally posted by leonidas

you're contradicting yourself --
Jeesh ... dontgetit

It was Jim Shooter who said it, not me.

What's your problem dude?
Originally posted by leonidas

you claim thanos was omnipotent.
Actually, Marvel Comics claims that,
you got a problem, email Marvel.
Originally posted by leonidas

by definition beyonder could not be anything BUT below him.
they can't even be equal,
since omnipotent by definition is singularly supreme.
clearly beyonder wasn't omnipotent either
since he didn't even have knowledge of our universe.
Whatever.

Marvel facts >>> any and all outside opinions.
Originally posted by leonidas

and being 'like' god is not the same as BEING god
Beyonder was "like" God, BEFORE there was Genesis.

Not the God that came afterwards and said "let there be light"

I believe that's what he means.
Originally posted by leonidas

which is what you claim thanos was.
You mean Marvel comics.
Originally posted by leonidas

(not that i believe thanos was omnipotent of course)
No offense,
but I'm not interested in any opinion,
that contradicts Marvel on panel evidence,
that's corroborated in official Marvel bios.

You're too technical leo, chill out. smile

Mr Master

Originally posted by Power16
Interesting! Classic Beyonder sure was a beast.
Yea man, when I read that I was like holy!

Moreover, Shooter literally associates "our" Universe as the Marvel Universe,
which means,
Beyonder was meant to be like the GOD that real world religions believe in.
Or whatever GOD was BEFORE there was Genesis.

This is awesome indeed.

Galan007

Thanos ftw.

Galan007

Originally posted by Juntai
Interesting.
Two different hearts? imo,
The latter was symbolism -- .

srug

Mr Master

Originally posted by Galan007
imo,
The latter was mainly for symbology. .
Spoiler ... now they know where it came from. mad

The explanation was the mask.

Galan007

Originally posted by Mr Master
Spoiler ... now they know where it came from. mad

The explanation was the mask. evillaugh

Hannibal-Lector

uhh so... what is thanos compared to PR Beyonder when he has HOTU, i dunno wut to think about this...

Edit: well, actually was PR-Beyonders powers stolen by doom? if so woudlnt that make him NOT omnipotent

Mr Master

Originally posted by Galan007
evillaugh
sulk

Mr Master

Originally posted by Hannibal-Lector
uhh so... what is thanos compared to PR Beyonder when he has HOTU,
i dunno wut to think about this...
THOTI makes one God withIN the Marvel Reality.

Beyonder was a God unto himself, outside of the Marvel Reality,
in fact, according to Shooter,
he was what God would be before God began Genesis.

Someone mentioned,
that Beyonder wasn't omnipotent because he didn't have knowledge of our Universe.

But seriously,
how many times have you noticed single celled bacterias while strolling down the street?

laughing out loud

Exactly.

Originally posted by Hannibal-Lector
Edit: well, actually was PR-Beyonders powers stolen by doom?
if so woudlnt that make him NOT omnipotent
There were stipulations involved in that event.

But aside from that,
it was simple PIS to make a more interesting story.

If we take into account Beyonder's power-set, and character history,
that should be an impossiblity in every sense of the word.

King Kandy

Originally posted by Mr Master
Not exactly, that's supposed to be the Universe's actual beating "Heart"
but I thought it was interesting, that it was coined the same.
I suppose as in Eternity's (if he had one)

Still, trivia. cool

Actually that was Captain Marvel's heart... it was pretty much just a vision Captain Marvel had. That's why it's "his" universe...

King Kandy

Thanos w/ THOTU would win. He had unlimited power, whereas Beyonder has shown his power to be limited, although it was trillions of times greater then the multiverse.

Infinity>Trillions.

Mr Master

Originally posted by King Kandy
Actually that was Captain Marvel's heart... it was pretty much just a vision Captain Marvel had. That's why it's "his" universe...
Actually, I knew that.

My reply to Galan:
Originally posted by Mr Master
Spoiler ... now they know where it came from. mad

The explanation was the mask.

Mr Master

Originally posted by King Kandy
Thanos w/ THOTU would win.
*edit*
Originally posted by Mr Master

Barring pis, Beyonder wins.

At best, (being generous) THOTI stalemates him.

Before I'd given it to THOTI,
but recent revelations (to me at-least) by Jim Shooter,
taught me Beyonder was more than I ever imagined.
Imo.
Originally posted by King Kandy
He had unlimited power,
whereas Beyonder has shown his power to be limited,
although it was trillions of times greater then the multiverse.
Don't know if you knew this but,
the Marvel Reality was/is Infinite.

So that should be phrased,

Beyonder was Millions of times more powerful than the Infinte Multiverse.
Originally posted by King Kandy

Infinity>Trillions.
Millions of times greater than Infinity > Infinity. smile

leonidas

mm, you spent 10 pages of a thread telling me thanos was omnipotent THEN you say you think classic beyonder can take him and you expected me to just let it slide? laughing out loud

come on, now . . . smile

Dark-Jaxx

Originally posted by leonidas
mm, you spent 10 pages of a thread telling me thanos was omnipotent THEN you say you think classic beyonder can take him and you expected me to just let it slide? laughing out loud

come on, now . . . smile

In Marvel there are levels of omnipotence. smile

Mr Master

Originally posted by leonidas
mm, you spent 10 pages of a thread telling me thanos was omnipotent
Which was a waste,
cause I should've just stopped the instant I posted Marvel stating/depicting it so. smile

Don't feel bad though,
We spent 20 pages telling/showing Nvr the same thing, ultimately with no result.

Originally posted by leonidas

THEN you say you think classic beyonder can take him
and you expected me to just let it slide?
I never knew Beyonder was supposed to be like God before Genisis.

Shooter associates the Marvel Universe with "OUR" Universe btw.

So go figure.

Originally posted by leonidas
come on, now . . .
I'm not in the mood for a re-hash of those circles,
so I'll quitely oooh (depart)

Like Thanos said:

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/4065/coollineaboutrunningaway1wn.th.jpg

stick out tongue

... peace and love yall.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx

In Marvel there are levels of omnipotence.
thumb up

..............................................................

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6475/kkht2.th.jpg

Kubik says,

"Our power is as nothing to the Celestials"

Kosmos replies,

"But Kubik, do we not possess Infinite Power (Omnipotence)

Kubik retorts,

"Yes, Our might is Infinite. But there are Levels of Infinity"

..............................................................

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/8929/infipo9.th.jpg

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/958/infi2lt7.th.jpg

..............................................................

CONTINUES ...

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/1130/infi3rl5.th.jpg

Kubik finishes,

"Thus are demonstrated TWO LEVELS of INFINITY,

there are of course, an INFINITE number MORE"

..............................................................

stoned

leonidas

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
In Marvel there are levels of omnipotence. smile

there are levels of infinity -- there are an infinite amount of even numbers, but the infinite 'set' of even AND odd numbers is 'larger' then the infinite set of just even numbers.

there are NOT levels of omnipotence though. there is omnipotent and NOT omnipotent. to claim such levels exist is to do exactly what i said all along in a difefrent thread -- namely redefine omnipotence for this setting. you did exactly that by qualifying omnipotence 'in marvel'.

smart

Dark-Jaxx

Originally posted by leonidas
there are levels of infinity -- there are an infinite amount of even numbers, but the infinite 'set' of even AND odd numbers is 'larger' then the infinite set of just even numbers.

there are NOT levels of omnipotence though. there is omnipotent and NOT omnipotent. to claim such levels exist is to do exactly what i said all along in a difefrent thread -- namely redefine omnipotence for this setting. you did exactly that by qualifying omnipotence 'in marvel'.

smart

It isn't hard to get. Like one of the people I call dimension Gods, like Shuma Gorath, who are omnipotent in their dimension, now take, say...Mad Jim Jaspers, who is able to bend reality to a nigh omnipotent degree on an Omniversal scale, he would beat Shuma IN his dimension.

King Kandy

Originally posted by Mr Master
Millions of times greater than Infinity > Infinity. smile

No really it isn't.

Galan007

Thanos has the better on panel feats -- Beyonder has the better on panel statements...

Feats > statements,
Thanos > Beyonder.

vin

Air Legend

Originally posted by King Kandy
No really it isn't.
Um, if you were actually smart enough to take a basic calculus course (and do well in it obviously), you'd realize that the statement is true.

Southern_Rebel

The problem I have with this is that the HOTI is supposed to be the power of the TOAA. The TOAA is the one who drew the Beyonder to begin with...the TOAA retconned him...and the TOAA could just tear the Beyonder up and throw him in a trash can...and edit Marvel History to say that he never existed to begin with.

If Thanos had the power of the TOAA...then it seems to me that his power would be well above what Beyonder had.

However, some say that the pre-retcon Beyonder also that the power of the writers...if that is the case...then, this would just be a stalemate of equal powers. I fail to see how the Beyonder could be above the power of the TOAA.

starlock

Thanos Hotu for the win

Xplosive

Originally posted by Mr Master
THOTI makes one God withIN the Marvel Reality.
Originally posted by Southern_Rebel
However, some say that the pre-retcon Beyonder also that the power of the writers...

But he was still retconned, so we can say that he couldn't resist the power of TOAA. So TOAA can do to PR Beyonder whatever he wants, he could make him even more powerful if TOAA chose so, but he retconned him, and PR Beyonder couldn't do anything about it.

PR Beyonder was still created by TOAA like everyone else. Who created him, writers, so TOAA.
THOTI is the actual power of TOAA within MU, no one can surpass that.
THOTI wins this.

If we would see again PR Beyonder in this time to face THOTI, THOTI would own him.
PR Beyonder was impressive, but this time he wouldn't be able to do to THOTI what he was to others, so wouldn't look so impressive against THOTI.

And this time, PR Beyonder would face the real supreme power.

quanchi112

Thanos has better feats and wasnt really even challenged by anybody on panel. They were all a joke to him and he defeated them with ease. Beyonder loses this.

Mr Master

Btw. Kubik was referring to their (Kosmos and his) "infinite Power (omnipotence)

Bah, as you wish though.
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
It isn't hard to get.
Like one of the people I call dimension Gods, like Shuma Gorath, who are omnipotent in their dimension, now take, say...Mad Jim Jaspers, who is able to bend reality to a nigh omnipotent degree on an Omniversal scale, he would beat Shuma IN his dimension.
thumb up

... Precisely.

That's just one of many who can stomp "omnipotent" Shuma.

Utrigita

Thanos HOTU ftw.

Sundipped

Originally posted by Mr Master

That's just one of many who can stomp "omnipotent" Shuma.

Right MJJ can beat him but I'm wondering who coined Shuma as omnipotent anyway. Musta been Wikipedia. erm

If Strange can go to his dimension and defeat him by absorbing his own mystical energy then he is far from omnipotent.

Or is Strange omnipotent when he uses the black arts? shifty

Mr Master

Originally posted by Galan007

Thanos has the better on panel feats --
Beyonder has the better on panel statements...

Feats > statements,
Thanos > Beyonder.
Hmm ...

Let's run a check list then, and see if that's accurate.

The biggest/top feats performed by THOTI and Beyonder:

..............................................................................

THOTI:

1. Absorbed the Cosmic hierarchy (including LT) & every character in Space-Time.

2. Erased all of Space-Time in Marvel.

3. Re-created all of Space-Time in Marvel, including every being he absorbed.

..............................................................................

Beyonder:

1. Had the Cosmic hierachy (including LT) so afraid,
they didn't even dare attempt to attack him.
LT & the hierarchy were literally "desperate"
and at one point they even "trembled."

2. Defeated the most powerful being in Marvel (Molecule Man) who was above LT.

LT > entire current Marvel Reality.

3. Created a Multiverse from scratch that was atleast Quintillions of times more infinite,
than the infinite Marvel Reality.
(based on Shooter's analogy) -
which was ...
"Beyond Realm is an Ocean ...
while "Our Universe" (Marvel Reality) is a drop of Water"

..............................................................................

There's some accurate perspective.

Yall decide. smile

Mr Master

Originally posted by Air Legend

Um, if you were actually smart enough to take a basic calculus course
(and do well in it obviously), you'd realize that the statement is true.
I think he was being sarcastic, well I hope he was or ... I ... dontgetit

Southern_Rebel

Originally posted by Mr Master
I think he was being sarcastic, well I hope he was or ... I ... dontgetit

You do agree that the TOAA(Marvel) created Classic Beyonder..and therefore is more powerful, right? If Thanos had TOAA's power, then how could the Beyonder be above that?

Mr Master

Originally posted by Southern_Rebel

The problem I have with this is that the HOTI is supposed to be the power of the TOAA.
True, but withIN Comic Reality.

THOTI never was Toaa/god that draw the Comics. (as in the avatar in FF#511)
THOTI was what Toaa/god would be withIN Marvel's Space-Time in Comics.
Originally posted by Southern_Rebel

The TOAA is the one who drew the Beyonder to begin with...
Actually,

Toaa/god in the End: (HOTI arc) was Starlin/Milgrom

Toaa/god in Secret Wars II was Shooter/Milgrom.

Half the same ... half not.

Toaa/god in the End arc, made THOTI the ultimate power in Marvel.
(let's not forget that Classic Beyonder does NOT exist in This Marvel)

Toaa/god in Secret Wars made Beyonder "god" of "OUR" Universe,
in fact, "god" before "god" began Genesis. (as in the Bible)
That's right,
Shooter associated the Marvel Reality as "our" (mine and yours Universe)
Originally posted by Southern_Rebel
the TOAA retconned him...
and the TOAA could just tear the Beyonder up and throw him in a trash can...
and edit Marvel History to say that he never existed to begin with.
Thanos never had that kind of power.

You're referring to the actual Oaa/god (artists/writers) which Thanos was not.
Originally posted by Southern_Rebel

If Thanos had the power of the TOAA...
then it seems to me that his power would be well above what Beyonder had.
Thanos was only able to exercise his power withIN the Marvel fictional Reality,
he wasn't able to tear pages and throw them in the garbage in the literal sense.

That's She Hulk's world. laughing out loud

Originally posted by Southern_Rebel

However, some say that the pre-retcon Beyonder also that the power of the writers...if that is the case...then, this would just be a stalemate of equal powers.
thumb up

... That's what I ultimately agreed upon.

But technically speaking, (based on Shooter's official statements)
Beyonder was something greater.

But I can live with them stalemating. (I respect them both)
Originally posted by Southern_Rebel
I fail to see how the Beyonder could be above the power of the TOAA.
I hope I presented some thought provoking reasons,
but again, I'll say for the record, imo, stalemate.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Sundipped
Right MJJ can beat him but I'm wondering who coined Shuma as omnipotent anyway. Musta been Wikipedia. If Strange can go to his dimension and defeat him by absorbing his own mystical energy then he is far from omnipotent.
Shuma? meh.

Kubik & Kosmos were coined Omnipotent On Panel,
and they are levels below Celestials, so ... there ya go friend.

There are levels of Infinity/Omnipotence in Marvel.

Confirmed by Dr Strange as well.

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4600/infinitymoremx9.th.jpg

smile

Mr Master

Originally posted by Southern_Rebel

You do agree that the TOAA(Marvel) created Classic Beyonder..
and therefore is more powerful, right?
Thanos was not Toaa/god
(artists/writers outside the Marvel Reality represented by avatars)

Thanos was the Supreme Being (power of Toaa/god) withIN the Marvel Reality.

And yes, the real Toaa/god would stomp Beyonder with little effort.
(all it takes is tearing his page up, like you suggested earlier)
In fact, it's inconsequential putting any character against the real deal.

Originally posted by Southern_Rebel

If Thanos had TOAA's power, then how could the Beyonder be above that?
I finalized my reasons at a stalemate,
and I gave you my reasons in my other response to your earlier post.
Not sure if it's satisfactory but that's how I see it.

Southern_Rebel

Originally posted by Mr Master
Thanos was not Toaa/god
(artists/writers outside the Marvel Reality represented by avatars)

Thanos was the Supreme Being (power of Toaa/god) withIN the Marvel Reality.

And yes, the real Toaa/god would stomp Beyonder with little effort.
(all it takes is tearing his page up, like you suggested earlier)
In fact, it's inconsequential putting any character against the real deal.

I finalized my reasons at a stalemate,
and I gave you my reasons in my other response to your earlier post.
Not sure if it's satisfactory but that's how I see it.

I understand where you are coming from. I do disagree with the way that Marvel portrayed the Beyonder...if he was in fact meant to be the Biblical God. If Beyonder was God...then He could've blinked all opposition out of existence with just a mere thought.....including the Molecule Man....there never would have been a fight. However, you can't sell comics without any drama...so, I suppose that's why the Molecule Man appeared to be a challenge for the Beyonder.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Southern_Rebel

I understand where you are coming from.
I do disagree with the way that Marvel portrayed the Beyonder...
if he was in fact meant to be the Biblical God.
If Beyonder was God...
then He could've blinked all opposition out of existence with just a mere thought.....
including the Molecule Man....there never would have been a fight.
I should point out though, I don't think Beyonder was literally the biblical God,
he was like "God" before there was Genesis.

Imo,
this means Beyonder was "God" unto himself,
while the actual biblical "God" went ahead and created Marvel, lol.
Then Beyonder noticed "God's" creation (the Marvel Universe)
which was like a drop of water in comparison with the Ocean Beyonder encompassed.

Which is insane either way. laughing out loud

Originally posted by Southern_Rebel

However, you can't sell comics without any drama...so,
I suppose that's why the Molecule Man appeared to be a challenge for the Beyonder.
I agree 100% ... which is also why we saw the plot seriously force stupidy,
of Doom actually getting over on the Beyonder,
(although Beyonder had his guard down/although Beyonder played a role in that feat)
that should've been impossible.

But hey, including that PIS, helped make SS I, the best selling arc ever.

Mordum

thanos wins simple as that. Beyonder was clumsy and flawed. Thanos seemed more all powerful.

Dark-Jaxx

King Kandy

Originally posted by Mr Master
But again, Marvel facts >>> any and all outside opinions. smile

Actually that isn't true on this forum. We have rules like PIS and SMvFL that put logic on the same level as feats.

Astner

Haha! So full of irony, no offence.
You've convinced the entire board that the heart had greater power, and now you're trying to tell them the opposite as they've learned.

To me Beyonder was an interesting character, because unlike other omnipotent or nigh-omnipotent beings he was actually interesting to read about. It was like reading about yourself with omnipotence, he basicly did everything one would do with that power.

Oh well, didn't Molecule man say after Beyonder defeated him that the Beyonder was to Molecule man as Molecule man was to Captain America?

Anyway, I've always seen his as a fictional avatar of the author. Shooter made him that way, and the Beyonder only got depowered because Shooter left Marvel.

But then again, wasn't Molecule man more powerful than the entire host of cosmic combinded?

Mr Master

Originally posted by Astner

Haha! So full of irony, no offence.

You've convinced the entire board that the heart had greater power,
and now you're trying to tell them the opposite as they've learned.Haha! ...
You should review the entire thread friend,
before trying to make me look like a silly opinionated switcharoo.
Originally posted by Mr Master

Barring pis, Beyonder wins.

At best, (being generous) THOTI stalemates him.

Before I'd given it to THOTI,

but recent revelations (to me at-least) by Jim Shooter,

taught me Beyonder was more than I ever imagined.

Oh, and I have proof, just in case.
erm

Originally posted by Astner

To me Beyonder was an interesting character,
because unlike other omnipotent or nigh-omnipotent beings he was actually interesting to read about. It was like reading about yourself with omnipotence, he basicly did everything one would do with that power.
Cool, now we're back on topic.
Originally posted by Astner

Oh well, didn't Molecule man say after Beyonder defeated him that the Beyonder was to Molecule man as Molecule man was to Captain America?
Correct.
Originally posted by Astner

Anyway, I've always seen his as a fictional avatar of the author. Shooter made him that way, and the Beyonder only got depowered because Shooter left Marvel.
He was that, and more, according to Shooter.

note* (visit first page) smile

Originally posted by Astner

But then again,
wasn't Molecule man more powerful than the entire host of cosmic combinded?
Indeed. thumb up

Xplosive

THOTI tears him apart.

Mr Master

Originally posted by King Kandy

Actually that isn't true on this forum.
We have rules like PIS and SMvFL that put logic on the same level as feats.
Which is irrelevant concerning the Beyonder.
Unless you're referring to Galactus' tech absorbing much of Beyonder's power, which then I agree.

But if anyone is gonna tell me Thanos/THOTI was not the omnipotent Supreme Being,
based on logic that's impossible to adhere to,
that is, if you wanna make an arc that last more than Two panels,
(like Thanos acquiring said power, Thanos blinks, arc over)
then I don't wanna hear it, unless it's stated by Marvel.

King Kandy

Yeah. But i'd say levels of infinity could legitimatly be called bad writing/PIS. The argument could be made.

Astner

Originally posted by Astner
Oh well, didn't Molecule man say after Beyonder defeated him that the Beyonder was to Molecule man as Molecule man was to Captain America?
Originally posted by Mr Master
Correct.
But if that's correct than the Beyonder must have fought Molecule man with great limitations, I don't know if they were subconscious limitations or whatever.
But to say that Molecule man was close to the Beyonder in power would be the same as saying Captain America is close to Molceule man in power, wouldn't it?

Mr Master

Originally posted by King Kandy
Yeah.
But i'd say levels of infinity could legitimatly be called bad writing/PIS.

Marvel's claim of levels of Infinity wasn't made up by Marvel though,
it's actually based on a real theorem from the real world created by Georg Cantor.
This theorem has been widely accepted as a legitimate theorem since 1891:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_theorem

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4600/infinitymoremx9.th.jpg
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/659/c2cf9.th.jpg

Originally posted by King Kandy
The argument could be made.
You'd become famous in the real world,
because it'd be like challenging the theorem of Calculus.

King Kandy

Originally posted by Mr Master
Marvel's claim of levels of Infinity wasn't made up by Marvel though,
it's actually based on a real theorem from the real world created by Georg Cantor.
This theorem has been widely accepted as a legitimate theorem since 1891:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_theorem

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4600/infinitymoremx9.th.jpg
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/659/c2cf9.th.jpg

You'd become famous in the real world,
because it'd be like challenging the theorem of Calculus.
Actually upon further research, you're right. But this would only apply to the debate if you proved that Beyonder's powers somehow had jurisdiction over something that THOTU's didn't. Until you prove that, they are at best equal.

Mr Master

Originally posted by King Kandy

Actually upon further research, you're right.
thumb up

Originally posted by King Kandy

But this would only apply to the debate if you proved that Beyonder's powers somehow had jurisdiction over something that THOTU's didn't.
Until you prove that, they are at best equal.
Imo, I gave some pretty good reasons,
why theoretically Beyonder may have (or should have) been more powerful.

But ultimately/finally I landed at this:
Originally posted by Mr Master
I hope I presented some thought provoking reasons,

but again, I'll say for the record, imo, stalemate.
smile

King Kandy

Interesting. I disagree, but I can see where you're coming from.

It's just that imo, Beyonder's powers were clearly that of a comic character. He was a character, he had flaws and limits (more in terms of his mental state then his power.)

Also he used up a lot of power killing Death, so his power couldn't have been infinite... even with multiple levels of infinity, infinite power can't be reduced or fractioned. THOTU's powers on the other hand were conclusivly infinite.

Mr Master

Originally posted by King Kandy

Interesting. I disagree, but I can see where you're coming from.
That's cool brother.
Originally posted by King Kandy

It's just that imo,
Beyonder's powers were clearly that of a comic character.
He was a character, he had flaws and limits
(more in terms of his mental state then his power.)
If Shooter would've made Beyonder what he was intended to be from beginning to end,
there would've been no inbetween the beginning and end,
just the beginning (one panel) and the end (second panel)
which wouldn't be much of a story.

I think we can agree on that.

I've actually used the same argument for THOTI,
against cats who claim his non-omnipotence due to him needing to re-create Marvel,
instead of just fixing the flaw.
Originally posted by King Kandy

Also he used up a lot of power killing Death,
so his power couldn't have been infinite... even with multiple levels of infinity, infinite power can't be reduced or fractioned.
And Thanos with all his power, not just a lot, couldn't fix the flaw without the re-creation,
so the door swings both ways.

On the otherhand, at that point, Beyonder had already limited himself greatly.
Originally posted by King Kandy

THOTU's powers on the other hand were conclusivly infinite.
I agree, but there are some who use petty details to disclaim that.

King Kandy

Originally posted by Mr Master
If Shooter would've made Beyonder what he was intended to be from beginning to end,
there would've been no inbetween the beginning and end,
just the beginning (one panel) and the end (second panel)
which wouldn't be much of a story.

I think we can agree on that.
Maybe so, but that's NOT how he was written. This isn't like THOTU, Beyonder appeared in hundreds of comics and they all showed him with some sort of limit (mental or occasionally in terms of power.)

Originally posted by Mr Master
I've actually used the same argument for THOTI,
against cats who claim his non-omnipotence due to him needing to re-create Marvel,
instead of just fixing the flaw.
Fortunatly, i'm not one of those people. So there's no need to use that argument on me.

Originally posted by Mr Master
And Thanos with all his power, not just a lot, couldn't fix the flaw without the re-creation,
so the door swings both ways.

On the otherhand, at that point, Beyonder had already limited himself greatly.
Well that's true. But my point is that logically, Beyonder's power couldn't have been infinite. It might as well have been infinite, but if you can take away some, and have Beyonder be reduced, then it couldn't have been infinite. Thanos had TOAA's power, it's stated on panel. Beyonder being Shooter's avatar was only ever in an interview.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I agree, but there are some who use petty details to disclaim that.
And i'm not one of them.

Mr Master

Originally posted by King Kandy

Maybe so, but that's NOT how he was written. This isn't like THOTU,
Beyonder appeared in hundreds of comics
and they all showed him with some sort of limit
(mental or occasionally in terms of power.)
Exactly 51 issues during the second installment.

And I have to disagree friend,
most of those issues Beyonder appeared in, in fact,
were depictions of a Supreme unlimited force.

You can't make statements like that K unless you're sure.
I can send you every Beyonder appearance via AIM/iChat if you wish.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Fortunatly, i'm not one of those people.
So there's no need to use that argument on me.
Just pointing it out, no harm in that.
Originally posted by King Kandy

Well that's true.
But my point is that logically,
Beyonder's power couldn't have been infinite. It might as well have been infinite, but if you can take away some,
and have Beyonder be reduced, then it couldn't have been infinite.
Who said he was reduced?

He said he put a lot of his power is in that cup,
he never stated what level that put him on.

And don't forget, Beyonder had limited himself at that point,
so that may well have been a lot of the power he limited himself to.

Also,
why are you overlooking Beyonder's ridiculous feat,
that screams out not infinity, but infinity beyond-beyond infinity.

I'm talking about the Multiverse he created from scratch,
at-least Quintillions of times more infinite than the entire infinite Marvel Multiverse.
Originally posted by King Kandy

Thanos had TOAA's power, it's stated on panel.
Beyonder being Shooter's avatar was only ever in an interview.
On Panel Beyonder was stated to be the incarnation of Supreme power as well.

And the Cosmic hierarchy (LT included) literally becoming "desperate"
and another time "trembling" speaks volumes.
The Hierarchy didn't fear Thanos.

Also,
that interview doesn't put Beyonder as Shooter's avatar,
Shooter literally put Beyonder on a status of "god"
before there was Genesis withIN our own Universe.

Sounds like he was beyond even a writer/artist avatar.
Obviously not above the actual real life writer/artist,
but above the avatar of a writer/artist.

Originally posted by King Kandy

And i'm not one of them.
That's good, me neither.

Astner

Originally posted by Astner
But if that's correct than the Beyonder must have fought Molecule man with great limitations, I don't know if they were subconscious limitations or whatever.
But to say that Molecule man was close to the Beyonder in power would be the same as saying Captain America is close to Molceule man in power, wouldn't it?
Did you miss this?

Mr Master

Originally posted by Astner
Did you miss this?
You made sense, I have to agree.

Southern_Rebel

But, are we to take Shooter's word for it? Shooter may have meant the Beyonder to be above himself, but would that apply to any TOAA avatar that has ever been seen on panel?

Take the Kirby avatar for instance in the FF arc. That avatar was actually drawing characters on panel. He even drew the FF on his canvas and it allowed them to return home. If the Beyonder battled this avatar, couldn't Kirby just draw a depiction of the Beyonder on panel...and just trash it...sending the Beyonder into Oblivion.

I know comic books are fallible and even though they try to follow continuity...mistakes are still made...so, I can see how Shooter may put the Beyonder even above himself...but, I don't think the Beyonder would be above EVERY avatar ever displayed on panel....especially this Kirby avatar which could just draw the Beyonder out of existence.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Southern_Rebel

But, are we to take Shooter's word for it?

Shooter may have meant the Beyonder to be above himself,
but would that apply to any TOAA avatar that has ever been seen on panel?
All the OAA/god representitive avatars are the same.
They represent the writers/artists.

Only the editorial staff has more pull than them.
They usually appear as themselves when throwing themselves in a Marvel comic.

The thing is Rebel,
Shooter was both the Editor in-chief and the Writer of Beyonder/Secret Wars.

Originally posted by Southern_Rebel

Take the Kirby avatar for instance in the FF arc.
That avatar was actually drawing characters on panel.
He even drew the FF on his canvas and it allowed them to return home.
He also had Galactus on a piece of paper,
and even drew a Cosmos and it became Reality in an instant,
no joke indeed.

Originally posted by Southern_Rebel

If the Beyonder battled this avatar,
couldn't Kirby just draw a depiction of the Beyonder on panel...
and just trash it...sending the Beyonder into Oblivion.
I could never answer this precisely, sure sounds logical.

But we have to remember,
the guy who elevated Beyonder to his status was not only the Writer,
but the Editor in-chief as well.

That somewhat raises the bar above just Writers/Artists.
Originally posted by Southern_Rebel

I know comic books are fallible
and even though they try to follow continuity...
mistakes are still made...
so, I can see how Shooter may put the Beyonder even above himself...
but,
I don't think the Beyonder would be above EVERY avatar ever displayed on panel....
especially this Kirby avatar
which could just draw the Beyonder out of existence.
Hey I agree, I'm just being honest, by taking a step back,
and observing all the details from a technical point of view.

In the end,
I rather not even include the plausibility of Beyonder vs a representitive avatar,
we should keep it withIN the fictional reality where characters are bound by Writers/Artists.

So ultimately,
I'd say Beyonder vs the Kirbiesk avatar is really an inconsequential debate,
it produces too many paradoxes.

THOTI is the ultimate Supreme power.
Classic Beyonder was the ultimate Supreme power.

Stalemate. big grin

King Kandy

Originally posted by Mr Master
Exactly 51 issues during the second installment.

And I have to disagree friend,
most of those issues Beyonder appeared in, in fact,
were depictions of a Supreme unlimited force.

You can't make statements like that K unless you're sure.
I can send you every Beyonder appearance via AIM/iChat if you wish.
Well many of them display him being supermely supreme, but nearly all of them show him being flawe MENTALLY. There are also a handfull that show his power being limited in some way.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Who said he was reduced?

He said he put a lot of his power is in that cup,
he never stated what level that put him on.

And don't forget, Beyonder had limited himself at that point,
so that may well have been a lot of the power he limited himself to.
laughing

I never said he was weak! But he stated on panel that he was weaker after the cup then before it. Even if he only used 0.0000001% of his power in the cup, it would still mean that taking away a part reduced the whole, and would mean his power wasn't infinite,

Originally posted by Mr Master
Also,
why are you overlooking Beyonder's ridiculous feat,
that screams out not infinity, but infinity beyond-beyond infinity.
Because it didn't have much to do with my point.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm talking about the Multiverse he created from scratch,
at-least Quintillions of times more infinite than the entire infinite Marvel Multiverse.
Even taking transfinite numbers into account, that statement is all kinds of wrong. Infinite can mean different things, and it gets confusing. I'm not sure what to make of that one.

Originally posted by Mr Master
On Panel Beyonder was stated to be the incarnation of Supreme power as well.
No one's arguing that he wasn't the most supremely powerful character in Marvel at the time. But statements you made seem like you were implying that a comic character was more powerful then the writer... which is just wrong.

Originally posted by Mr Master
And the Cosmic hierarchy (LT included) literally becoming "desperate"
and another time "trembling" speaks volumes.
But they still tried to take him down. Not head on, but they weren't exactly to scared to take shots at him (Beyonder'sbane anyone?)

Originally posted by Mr Master
The Hierarchy didn't fear Thanos.
Clearly they should have. It's even pointed out how immensly stupid they in fighting him.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Also,
that interview doesn't put Beyonder as Shooter's avatar,
Shooter literally put Beyonder on a status of "god"
before there was Genesis withIN our own Universe.
So what's your point? Jim Shooter doesn't have any jurisiction over the REAL "God"... Beyonder was only ever a comic book character.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Sounds like he was beyond even a writer/artist avatar.
Obviously not above the actual real life writer/artist,
but above the avatar of a writer/artist.
It's impossible to be above the Writers avatar... by definition they are the ones controlling the story in the first place.

King Kandy

Originally posted by Mr Master
All the OAA/god representitive avatars are the same.
They represent the writers/artists.

Only the editorial staff has more pull than them.
They usually appear as themselves when throwing themselves in a Marvel comic.
Would be true, but outside of interviews Beyonder was never intended to be anything other then a comic book character... in fact it is impossible for him to be anything else.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The thing is Rebel,
Shooter was both the Editor in-chief and the Writer of Beyonder/Secret Wars.
So? This battle isn't Jim Shooter vs. THOTU... that would just be stupid. Real Person vs. Comic Book character=Real person always wins. The comic book character is just a piece of paper.

Originally posted by Mr Master
But we have to remember,
the guy who elevated Beyonder to his status was not only the Writer,
but the Editor in-chief as well.

That somewhat raises the bar above just Writers/Artists.
Yeah, but that doesn't really matter. Beyonder is not above the writers, we both agree to that... It would be foolishness to say otherwise.

Originally posted by Mr Master
In the end,
I rather not even include the plausibility of Beyonder vs a representitive avatar,
we should keep it withIN the fictional reality where characters are bound by Writers/Artists.
But the thing is, Thanos w/ THOTU is basically a writer's avatar. They both have the power of the writers WITHIN comics.

Originally posted by Mr Master
So ultimately,
I'd say Beyonder vs the Kirbiesk avatar is really an inconsequential debate,
it produces too many paradoxes.
What paradoxes? The avatar wins easily, it has true ultimate power.

Originally posted by Mr Master
THOTI is the ultimate Supreme power.
Classic Beyonder was the ultimate Supreme power.

Stalemate. big grin

But we're not quite sure just how ultimately supreme Beyonder actually was.

Air Legend

Why is this duplicate thread still open? I mean for crying outloud the thread starter could have at least looked at the versus forum thread directory.

King Kandy

Whatever. This thread has taken off, I prefer the debate in this one anyway.

quanchi112

I am still shocked at Mr Masters change of opinion here. At first he kept saying that Thanos won and now it seems he believes in a stalemate favoring Beyonder.

I still find it hard to believe with Thanos feats on panel how anyone would say he loses here.

Mr Master

Originally posted by King Kandy

Well many of them display him being supermely supreme,
but nearly all of them show him being flawe MENTALLY.
There are also a handfull that show his power being limited in some way.
Again, not nearly all of them depict that, but if you wish to believe that,
that's on you.

MOST of then depict the opposite of what you're claiming.

And we all know, Beyonder LIMITED himself to fit in.
Originally posted by King Kandy

I never said he was weak!
But he stated on panel that he was weaker after the cup then before it.
Even if he only used 0.0000001% of his power in the cup,
it would still mean that taking away a part reduced the whole,
and would mean his power wasn't infinite
Actually he stated that he would not have the power to bring back Death,
but as we know, he was wrong.
Originally posted by King Kandy

Because it didn't have much to do with my point.
I know, you're only point is focusing on Beyonder while he limited himself,
but you're ignoring his feats that to this day,
have not been surpassed.
Originally posted by King Kandy

Even taking transfinite numbers into account,
that statement is all kinds of wrong.
Infinite can mean different things, and it gets confusing.
I'm not sure what to make of that one.
It may be wrong from your perspective, but it's quite simple to me.

The Marvel Reality was an Infinite Multiverse,
Beyonder created a Multiverse that was infinitely larger.

Marvel Reality = a Droplet of water.
Beyond Realm = an Ocean.
Originally posted by King Kandy

No one's arguing that he wasn't the most supremely powerful character in Marvel at the time.
But statements you made seem like you were implying that a comic character
was more powerful then the writer... which is just wrong.
A Comic character is anything the writer wishes him to be.

If Shooter wished for Beyonder to be above avatars,
then Beyonder is above avatars.

I NEVER said Beyonder was above Real people.

Originally posted by King Kandy

But they still tried to take him down.
Not head on, but they weren't exactly to scared to take shots at him (Beyonder'sbane anyone?)
That was only Eternity. (power of space/time in the Multiverse)

The rest of the hierarchy (including the LT) were literally Trembling with fear,
at this point.
Originally posted by King Kandy

Clearly they should have.
It's even pointed out how immensly stupid they in fighting him.
Clearly they didn't though.
Originally posted by King Kandy

So what's your point?
Jim Shooter doesn't have any jurisiction over the REAL "God"...
Beyonder was only ever a comic book character.
Beyonder was whatever Shooter made him.

You and I on the other hand,
really have no jurisdiction over what Marvel does.
Originally posted by King Kandy

It's impossible to be above the Writers avatar...
by definition they are the ones controlling the story in the first place.
Over the real writers in the real world?
Of course not.

But over avatars representing writers?

Most assuredly.

Mr Master

Originally posted by King Kandy

Would be true,
but outside of interviews Beyonder was never intended
to be anything other then a comic book character...
in fact it is impossible for him to be anything else.
Again, I think you're taking Shooter's explanation too literally.

Of course he wasn't "God" of the Bible,
or any "god" in real life.

Shooter was just making a comparison,
as to elevate Beyonder (withIN Comics)
to an unbelievable plateau.
Originally posted by King Kandy

So? This battle isn't Jim Shooter vs. THOTU... that would just be stupid.
Do me a favor, don't call my posts stupid,
if you're not even understanding their context.

Rebel and I were discussing the differences between writers and Shooter.

I explained in simple truth,
Shooter was both the Writer, and the Editor-in chief of Marvel.

Which outweighs the power of just a Writer.

No one said Anything at all about Shooter vs anyone.
Originally posted by King Kandy

Real Person vs. Comic Book character=Real person always wins.
The comic book character is just a piece of paper.
See how mis-understanding leads to irrelevant posts.
Originally posted by King Kandy

Yeah, but that doesn't really matter.
Beyonder is not above the writers,
we both agree to that... It would be foolishness to say otherwise.
Beyonder was above writer avatars, according to Shooter.
Originally posted by King Kandy

But the thing is,
Thanos w/ THOTU is basically a writer's avatar.
They both have the power of the writers WITHIN comics.
Although Beyonder was the EDITOR In-Chief's plus the Writer's Avatar.

I still said for the record,

this battle was a stalemate.
Originally posted by King Kandy

What paradoxes? The avatar wins easily, it has true ultimate power.
In real life?

of course.

In a Comic?

Anything is possible.
Originally posted by King Kandy

But we're not quite sure just how ultimately supreme Beyonder actually was.
The incarnation of Supreme power.

Is there another kind?

Mr Master

Originally posted by quanchi112

I am still shocked at Mr Masters change of opinion here.
At first he kept saying that Thanos won
and now it seems he believes in a stalemate favoring Beyonder.
Actually Mr Master NEVER said Thanos won.

In another thread at another time,
yes, Mr Master said that.

I already pinted out WHY my opinion changed,
to stalemate.

note* (visit page one)

Originally posted by quanchi112

I still find it hard to believe with Thanos feats on panel
how anyone would say he loses here.
Imo, it's a stalemate.

Beyonder has the greatest feat in Marvel's history btw.

leonidas

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
It isn't hard to get. Like one of the people I call dimension Gods, like Shuma Gorath, who are omnipotent in their dimension, now take, say...Mad Jim Jaspers, who is able to bend reality to a nigh omnipotent degree on an Omniversal scale, he would beat Shuma IN his dimension.

you're right, it's not that hard to get. in a different thread i actually gave this definition of omnipotence that is from one of the many dictionary.coms:

now i've REPEATEDLY said in this and other threads that if THE ABOVE is the definition of omnipotence you choose to accept, then, great!

however, that is NOT the standard definition. shuma is most certainly NOT omnipotent, any more than odin is, or lt, or any other being in marvel. there DO exist levels of infinity. there are NOT subsets of omnipotence EXCEPT if you allow for them in the comicbook world.

but you're right -- it isn't hard. i've said that all along. smile

and mm -- you say stalemate, but wouldn't the beyonder's realm have been part of 'everything' (as you say) that thanos absorbed into himself when he wiped everything out?

Dark-Jaxx

I don't think Beyonder's realm existed at that point...

leonidas

but if it did . . .? shifty

Dark-Jaxx

Originally posted by leonidas
but if it did . . .? shifty

If it did Beyonder would have come out and said,"YOU IS A B!TCH ASS NIGGA!", and then they would hold hands and join together as a new superhero duo called "The Omnipotent Butt Buddy Pals".

Mr Master

Originally posted by leonidas

and mm -- you say stalemate,
but wouldn't the beyonder's realm have been part of 'everything' (as you say) that thanos absorbed into himself when he wiped everything out?
First:

The original Beyonder realm hasn't existed since Nov. 1986,
when the New Universe became the second creation outside the Marvel Multiverse.

Thanos absorbed all of Space-Time in 2003.
.......................................................................................

Second:

Even if, the Beyonder realm would've been in it's original state,
it was still located in a whole other Reality,
disconnected from what was the Omniverse then (as in the infinite Multiverse)

According to Shooter's official Marvel Age interview, (first page of this thread)

and on panel:

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6606/beyondspacetime2pq7.th.jpg
.......................................................................................

Third:

Because of said reasons, we'll never know what would've happened.

But imo, (although the evidence points to Beyonder having the edge)

Beyonder stalemates THOTI. smile

Astner

The only thing that's bothering me is, you said that the avatars of the writers were a step above Thanos with the Heart in your hierarchy.
Yet you're claming that Beyonder was in a sense was the avatar of the writer. So is he beneath the Jack Kirby avatar or ... ? And if so why?

GN.

Mr Master, do u have the whole Marvel Age interview? It seems cut off. sad

Thanks!

Mr Master

Originally posted by Astner

The only thing that's bothering me is,
you said that the avatars of the writers
were a step above Thanos with the Heart in your hierarchy.
Yet you're claming that Beyonder was in a sense was the avatar of the writer.
So is he beneath the Jack Kirby avatar or ... ? And if so why?
I explained in the prior page,
that once we get into debating writer/artist avatars we'll end up with paradoxes,
so we should just keep it withIN the Marvel Omniversal reality.

Obviously the "god" avatar (Artist) in FF#511 was beyond the Marvel reality drawing everything that takes place on panel, he had a "collaborator" (the Writer)
together they comprise what we know to be the Toaa/god (a distinct representitive of the Writers and Artists of Marvel) So he/she/they were definitely above Thanos/THOTI.

THOTI was depicted as their power withIN the Marvel Omniversal reality,
not in the sense of Real World artists/writers,
which would be senseless withIN a comic,
but in the sense of making themselves fictional characters withIN a story.

Now, of course the Kirbiesk avatar is fictional as well,
but the Kirbiesk avatar had a sense of realism to it,
which imo, separates it from the Marvel Omniversal reality that every other cat appears in.
The Kirbiesk avatar admitted,
that it did not know what will happen next until he drew the ideas given to him by the writer,
signifying Humanity:

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/6163/fantasticfour51119ze0.th.jpg

Here's the scene,
where "god" and his "collaborator" are envisioning their next comic book arcs:

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/8156/fantasticfour51118em9.th.jpg

This is obviously a fictional representation of Real Human beings.

So in that sense,
that's how there's difference,
between the power of Toaa/god withIN the Marvel Omniversal Reality,
and the actual avatar directly representing "Real Humans."

The only difference with the Beyonder,'is that his creator was nt only a Writer,
but he was also Marvel's Editor-in chief.

But again,
since I rather keep in with the fictional Marvel Omniversal Reality,
this battle is a stalemate.

Supreme power (THOTI) vs Supreme power (Beyonder)

Mr Master

Originally posted by GN.
Mr Master, do u have the whole Marvel Age interview? It seems cut off.
The rest concentrates on the heroes, (inconsequential)
I just wanted to focus on the Beyonder.

Oh, I also made a mistake,
evidently, the Paramecium swimming in the Drop of Water is the Earth,
the Droplet of Water is the Marvel Reality (infinite Multiverse)

Which gives the opening line,
on the top of every Secret Wars II first page sense:

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/8272/17552423jy7.th.jpg

.......................................................................................

As we know, "Our Universe" = the infinite Multiverse:

Beyonder exploring said "Our Universe:

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/4553/beyonderexploresthemulino2.th.jpg

"Odd thing He had noticed about Our Universe"

"Namely,
that it is Many-Layered-composed of a seemingly Endless Number of Dimensions,

indeed, it is a MULTIVERSE"

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/172/beyonderexploresthemulitverse2ni5.th.jpg

Beyonder passes by the Microverse.
(located in a Universe outside and separate from the 616 Reality)

Beyonder even reaches the Cross Roads of Infinity located in the Negative Zone
(also located Way outside the 616 universe)

The Makers re-created the entire Universe that contains the Microverse,
in fact, they created the Microverse from scratch.

The Negative Zone .. well,
we ALL know it's located outside 616 from the Annihilation Arc.

Don't let the haters fool yall. smile

leonidas

Originally posted by Mr Master
Because of said reasons, we'll never know what would've happened.

But imo, (although the evidence points to Beyonder having the edge)

Beyonder stalemates THOTI. smile

cop out.

if it matters, i agree, btw -- i've always said beyonder was the greatest power ever on panel in comics. he would have taken thanos. wink

Mindset

Beyonder had more hos

Astner

Originally posted by Mindset
Beyonder had more hos
This is ture.

Galan007

I guess I just don't see what feats Beyonder has that give him the edge over Thanos.

srug

Dark-Jaxx

Originally posted by Galan007
I guess I just don't see what feats Beyonder has that give him the edge over Thanos.

srug More hos silly.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Galan007

I guess I just don't see what feats Beyonder has that give him the edge over Thanos.

The biggest/top feats performed by THOTI and Beyonder:

..............................................................................

THOTI:

1. Absorbed the Cosmic hierarchy (including LT) & every character in Space-Time.

2. Erased all of Space-Time in Marvel.

3. Re-created all of Space-Time in Marvel, including every being he absorbed.

..............................................................................

Beyonder:

1. Had the Cosmic hierachy (including LT) so afraid,
they didn't even dare attack him.
LT & the hierarchy were literally "desperate"
and at one point they even "trembled."
(while Beyonder limited himself no less) laughing out loud

2. Defeated the most powerful being in Marvel (Molecule Man) who was above LT.

LT > entire current Marvel Reality.

3. Created a Multiverse from scratch that was atleast Quintillions of times more infinite,
than the infinite Marvel Reality.
(based on Shooter's analogy) -
which was ...
"Beyond Realm is an Ocean ...
while "Our Universe" (Marvel Reality) is a drop of Water"

..............................................................................

srugdoped

Mr Master

Originally posted by leonidas

if it matters, i agree
thumb up

... Your word always matters.

Originally posted by leonidas

btw -- i've always said beyonder was the greatest power ever on panel in comics.

he would have taken thanos.
Based on Beyonder's supreme feat, and Shooter's statements, I agree.
But, since Thanos was also Supreme,
I'd rather keep it at a stalemate.

Galan007

Originally posted by Mr Master
The biggest/top feats performed by THOTI and Beyonder:

..............................................................................

THOTI:

1. Absorbed the Cosmic hierarchy (including LT) & every character in Space-Time.

2. Erased all of Space-Time in Marvel.

3. Re-created all of Space-Time in Marvel, including every being he absorbed.

..............................................................................

Beyonder:

1. Had the Cosmic hierachy (including LT) so afraid,
they didn't even dare attack him.
LT & the hierarchy were literally "desperate"
and at one point they even "trembled."
(while Beyonder limited himself no less) laughing out loud

Mr Master

Originally posted by Galan007

Yeah,
Thanos ftw. srsly
Yeah, well then,
Beyonder for the win. cool

See, that's easy.

Air Legend

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yeah, well then,
Beyonder for the win. cool

See, that's easy.
thumb up

131

Galan007

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yeah, well then,
Beyonder for the win. cool

See, that's easy. Thanos destroyed/recreated more than Beyonder.

Thanos actually beat the hierarchy -- he didn't just 'scare' them.

Again,
Thanos has the better feats -- Beyonder has the better statements.

Feats hold up far more than statements.

Air Legend

Originally posted by Galan007
Thanos destroyed/recreated more than Beyonder.

Thanos actually beat the hierarchy -- he didn't just 'scare' them.

Again,
Thanos has the better feats -- Beyonder has the better statements.

Feats hold up far more than statements.
I guess you missed the part where he said Beyonder beat Molecule Man who was greater than the rest of the heirarchy combined.

And Beyonder created more than Thanos.

So featwise, they are relatively similar.

Galan007

Originally posted by Air Legend
I guess you missed the part where he said Beyonder beat Molecule Man who was greater than the rest of the heirarchy combined. Different parts of that are debatable -- but that's not an argument I'm about to get in. smile

Originally posted by Air Legend
And Beyonder created more than Thanos. Nah.

Beyonder's creation was quintillions of times greater than one infinite Multiverse, as Mr M puts it...

If Thanos wiped out all of Marvel, he wiped out an infinite amount of infinite Multiverses.

Infinite > quintillions.

Xplosive

Mr Master

Originally posted by Galan007

Thanos destroyed/recreated more than Beyonder.
I disagree.

Beyonder created a Multiverse Quintillions of times larger,
and Millions of times more powerful,
than the Infinite Prime Multiverse.

The Prime Multiverse,
is the only Reality of significance when it comes to Cosmic power in Marvel.

So a gazillion more Multiverses are really irrelevant,
since that's just space-time lacking any Cosmic power.

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/7932/omniis1cz2.th.jpg

"The Multiverse ...
a collection of Alternate Dimensions with a similar nature and Universal hierarchy.
Earth 616 and alternates seen in the MU
(which include being like the Watcher, Eternity etc) are withIN the SAME Multiverse.

Realms LACKING this hierarchy of Power are OUTSIDE of the Multiverse" erm

Originally posted by Galan007

Thanos actually beat the hierarchy -- he didn't just 'scare' them.
Terrifying the hierarchy (LT included) that they couldn't even act is more impressive.

On top of that,
Beyonder defeated Molecule Man,
who was himself was more powerful than the enitre hierarchy (LT included) combined.
Originally posted by Galan007

Again,
Thanos has the better feats -- Beyonder has the better statements.
Well, I know both characters and their feats intimately.

Beyonder has the beeter feats, no question.
Originally posted by Galan007

Feats hold up far more than statements.
I agree, that's why Beyonder has the edge.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Galan007

Different parts of that are debatable --
but that's not an argument I'm about to get in.
There's no debate concerning whether or not Molecule Man was more powerful than LT.

Molecule Man was more powerful than the LT, and everyone knows this, including yourself.

You've claimed several times that Thanos wins here based on his win over LT,
and acknowledging that Beyonder defeated MM who was beyond/above LT,
puts a damper on the reasoning behind your choice.

Don't force it good friend.
Originally posted by Galan007

Nah.

Beyonder's creation was quintillions of times greater than one infinite Multiverse,
as Mr M puts it...
Nah, it's how Shooter (writer/editor in-chief) puts it based on his analogy.

And again,
that one infinite Multiverse was not only ALL of Marvel,
(excluding the Beyond Realm) at the time,
but it was and STILL is,
the only relevant Multiverse in Marvel concerning Cosmic power.
Originally posted by Galan007

If Thanos wiped out all of Marvel,
he wiped out an infinite amount of infinite Multiverses.

Infinite > quintillions.
First:

Thanos didn't absorb all of Marvel,
Thanos absorbed all of Space-Time:

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/8809/allhecould3sq3.th.jpg

Thanos did not absorb the Dimensions of the Cosmic AnchorS,
or Death's Dimension either.

(can't say what else he left over out there, it might've been just them)

Still, it immediately confirms it was NOT ALL of Marvel.

Second:

On top of that,
those Multiverses are meaningless concerning Cosmic hierarchal power.

Even Genis/Entropy (Genis mostly)
can erase all of Space-Time in Marvel if it doesn't fight back.

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/1571/et1ex6.th.jpg

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/1549/et2kc1.th.jpg

As we can see, erasing Space-Time that doesn't fight back,
is quite a different story to erasing a Sentient/Conscious Multiverse.

ALL of those MultiverseS OUTSIDE the Prime Multiverse are exactly that,
unconscious Multiversal scales of Space-Time.

Xplosive

Originally posted by Mr Master
Terrifying the hierarchy (LT included) that they couldn't even act is more impressive.

Not really.

Originally posted by Mr Master
On top of that, Beyonder defeated Molecule Man,
who was himself was more powerful than the enitre hierarchy (LT included) combined.

Yeah, but THOTI didn't have any trouble at crushing them. PR Beyonder gave some of his power in the cup, so it took some of his power, a lot of his power level. So how can he be infinite, if it took so much power from him.

I don't see anything taking power from THOTI, to decrease it. If he would give some power to the cup or anywhere, to empower something from his own power, he would still be the same infinitely powerful as before, something PR Beyonder wasn't anymore.

Galan007

Originally posted by Xplosive
Not really.

Yeah, but THOTI didn't have any trouble at crushing them. PR Beyonder gave some of his power in the cup, so it took some of his power, a lot of his power level. So how can he be infinite, if it took so much power from him.

I don't see anything taking power from THOTI, to decrease it. If he would give some power to the cup or anywhere, to empower something from his own power, he would still be the same infinitely powerful as before, something PR Beyonder wasn't anymore. thumb up

Mr Master

Originally posted by Xplosive

Not really.
Yes really.

The LT was afraid of the Beyonder, Desperate in FACT:

....................................................................

When Uatu gathered the Cosmic Hierarchy (the LT included)

the In-Betweener says about Mephisto,

"Surely this is his day of last resorts ... he is desperate ... AS ARE WE"

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2595/beyo1hr6.th.jpg

I believe "WE" included the LT yes

(who is there)

................................................................................................

After Beyonder erased Death from the Multiverse,
the Hierarchy (including the LT) accepts their fate,

then the MM shows up and they all step aside: (as if salvation arrived)

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/1442/26796258iu4.th.jpg

LOL!
................................................................................................

Even more EMBARRASSING,

the Living Tribunal and the hierarchy literally,
were quaking in their pants at the thought of what Beyonder would do,
if Eternity failed,
when Eternity actually mustered some courage to attempt an attack:

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/8900/beto2za1.th.jpg

"The Mighty of the MULTIVERSE (the LT included) TREMBLE"

................................................................................................

LOL! can anyone imagine the power it must've taken to make the Living Tribunal,

TREMBLE! ... LOL.

Originally posted by Xplosive

Yeah, but THOTI didn't have any trouble at crushing them.
beyonder had no trouble scaring the pants off of the LT and the hierarchy,
same hierarchy that attacked Thanos.
Originally posted by Xplosive

PR Beyonder gave some of his power in the cup,
so it took some of his power, a lot of his power level.
So how can he be infinite, if it took so much power from him.
You mean alot of the power he LIMITED himself too.

Stated across many different isssues ... here are 4 occasions from 4 different titles:

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/8272/17552423jy7.th.jpg

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/1025/beyonderimposeslimitations3gg5.th.jpg

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/5818/blimtsyq8.th.jpg

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/6775/beyonderimposinglimitskq0.th.jpg

Have you ever read Secret Wars?

If not, I'm not going to indulge you in circles friend.
Originally posted by Xplosive

I don't see anything taking power from THOTI, to decrease it.
If he would give some power to the cup or anywhere,
to empower something from his own power,
he would still be the same infinitely powerful as before,
something PR Beyonder wasn't anymore.
laughing

.. Show me where and when Beyonder's power was EVER decreased?

Show us where it's stated that Beyonder wasn't infinite anymore.

Or are you just making that up?

Also, Mr infinitely powerful Thanos could NOT fix the flaw,
without re-creating everything.

So the door of pis swings both ways.

Mr Master

....................................................................

Beyonder defeated the Molecule Man,
who was MORE powerful than the Living Tribunal:

....................................................................

"And Now that He is and knows he is Mightier than all other beings of the Multiverse"

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/2074/19607129tn4.th.jpg

Hey isn't that the LT there? hm

....................................................................

....................................................................

Uatu begs the Molecule Man, (on his knees)

"Stop the Beyonder before he undoes all that is ... I beg of you,

Without your aid, I fear for all existence"

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/3453/94051643ux8.th.jpg

Since the LT and the hierarchy were too afraid to do anything.

....................................................................

whistling

leonidas

Originally posted by Galan007
Thanos destroyed/recreated more than Beyonder.

that implies you believe thanos wiped out the omniverse (an opinion i still completely disagree with smile

) however, even if you accept it as true, imo beyonder could have performed a similar feat were cosmology the same in the 80s. it's like trying to compare the 60s packers teams to modern day teams. so much has changed that a direct comparison is essentially impossible. in this case i think we can look at intentions and it seems beyonder was intended by the big wigs at marvel to truly be their supreme character. no interpretations of the beyonders actions are required, very unlike thanos's actions. smile

but, to each his own. wink

Mr Master

Originally posted by leonidas

that implies you believe thanos wiped out the omniverse (an opinion i still completely disagree with smile

but, to each his own. wink

From an unbiased persepective, this makes perfect sense.

We should play the lottery.

Cause you agreed with me yesterday,
and now I'm agreeing with you.

laughing out loud

Btw. Thanos did in fact erase all of Time/Space,
but he left out Dimensions OUTSIDE of Time/Space.

But like I explained up top which was ignored by others:

..............................................................................

Beyonder created a Multiverse Quintillions of times larger,
and Millions of times more powerful,
than the Infinite Prime Multiverse.

The Prime Multiverse,
is the only Reality of significance when it comes to Cosmic power in Marvel.

So a gazillion more Multiverses are really irrelevant,
since that's just space-time lacking any Cosmic power.

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/7932/omniis1cz2.th.jpg

"The Multiverse ...
a collection of Alternate Dimensions with a similar nature and Universal hierarchy.
Earth 616 and alternates seen in the MU
(which include being like the Watcher, Eternity etc) are withIN the SAME Multiverse.

Realms LACKING this hierarchy of Power are OUTSIDE of the Multiverse"

yes

Galan007

Originally posted by leonidas
that implies you believe thanos wiped out the omniverse (an opinion i still completely disagree with smile

but, to each his own. wink

My opinion lies not in what Beyonder 'was intended to be', or in 'statements' regarding his character...

I'm looking at what they both did on panel -- and imo, Thanos seems to be more impressive based on that.

Not a biased opinion whatsoever, . smile

leonidas

Originally posted by Mr Master
thumb up

From an unbiased persepective, this makes perfect sense.

We should play the lottery.

Cause you agreed with me yesterday,
and now I'm agreeing with you.

laughing out loud

Btw. Thanos did in fact erase all of Time/Space,
but he left out Dimensions OUTSIDE of Time/Space.

But like I explained up top which was ignored by others:

laughing out loud

things they are a-changin'! eek!

leonidas

Originally posted by Galan007
My opinion lies not in what Beyonder 'was intended to be', or in 'statements' regarding his character...

I'm looking at what they both did on panel -- and Thanos seems to be more impressive based on that.

Not a biased opinion whatsoever, . smile

i'm not claiming you are showning bias at all -- i'm just saying that given the way things are set up, it's hard for b's feats to compare is all. because of that, i think it is relevent in this particular case, where direct feat comparison is unfair, to consider extraneous information. i'm not trying to sway you one way or the other, i'm just explaining my own rationale and why imo feats aren't necessarily a fair way to go when comparing these characters. smile

Mr Master

Originally posted by Galan007

My opinion lies not in what Beyonder 'was intended to be',
or in 'statements' regarding his character...
Neither is mine.

The statements made by the Writer and Editor in-chief of Marvel at the time,
only cements Beyonder as the ultimate Supreme being.

And I still call this a stalemate ... but ...

... We can debate their feats if you wish. smile

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm looking at what they both did on panel --
and Thanos seems to be more impressive based on that.
You keep saying that.

So what did Thanos do, that was more impressive?

Galan007

Originally posted by leonidas
i'm not claiming you are showning bias at all -- i'm just saying that given the way things are set up, it's hard for b's feats to compare is all. because of that, i think it is relevent in this particular case, where direct feat comparison is unfair, to consider extraneous information. i'm not trying to sway you one way or the other, i'm just explaining my own rationale and why imo feats aren't necessarily a fair way to go when comparing these characters. smile

I see where you're coming from leo.

But imo,
if statements regarding a character start getting used, in place of 'solid proof' -- It will more than likely lead to someone saying, "Well Beyonder beats Thanos, cuz Shooter said he was teh Supreme!" dur

stick out tongue

But again,
Just MO.

Mr Master

Originally posted by leonidas

i'm not claiming you are showning bias at all -- i'm just saying that given the way things are set up, it's hard for b's feats to compare is all. because of that, i think it is relevent in this particular case, where direct feat comparison is unfair, to consider extraneous information. i'm not trying to sway you one way or the other, i'm just explaining my own rationale and why imo feats aren't necessarily a fair way to go when comparing these characters.
Your logic makes sense, but,

Beyonder's feats still trump anything Thanos did. smile

They're just being ignored, to give Thanos the win.

Utrigita

If I may give a Comment in this discussion...

Is it possible that the limit thing is meant as Beyonder limiting himself by giving himself a mortal form and mortal "needs", because Obviously when MM managed to channel the Beyonders Energy back into his own Dimension it was all of his Energy.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Utrigita

Is it possible that the limit thing
is meant as Beyonder limiting himself by giving himself a mortal form and mortal "needs"

No:

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/8272/17552423jy7.th.jpg

Originally posted by Mr Master

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/1025/beyonderimposeslimitations3gg5.th.jpg

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/5818/blimtsyq8.th.jpg

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/6775/beyonderimposinglimitskq0.th.jpg

He literally limited his power,
in order to fit in with these Parameciums,
swimming in this drop of water known as the infinite Multiverse. smile

Btw. Ut. You shouldn't skip posts,
because this leads to circles,
and repetitive posting of scans that already answered you questions.
Originally posted by Utrigita

because Obviously when MM managed to channel the Beyonders Energy
back into his own Dimension it was all of his Energy.
That was like at the very end, last Two pages of the series.

Btw. It was later revealed that Beyonder allowed that,
(faking his own death)
to finally leave the Multiverse for good.

That's how he chose to depart.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Galan007

But imo,
if statements regarding a character start getting used, in place of 'solid proof' -- It will more than likely lead to someone saying, "Well Beyonder beats Thanos, cuz Shooter said he was teh Supreme!" dur

Originally posted by Mr Master

The statements made by the Writer and Editor in-chief of Marvel at the time,
only cements Beyonder as the ultimate Supreme being.

And I still call this a stalemate ... but ...

... We can debate their feats if you wish. smile

So what did Thanos do, that was more impressive?
hum

GN.

Mr Master was the interview in marvel age annual 1?

Utrigita

Originally posted by Mr Master
No:

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/8272/17552423jy7.th.jpg

He literally limited his power,
in order to fit in with these Parameciums,
swimming in this drop of water known as the infinite Multiverse. smile

Btw. Ut. You shouldn't skip posts,
because this leads to circles,
and repetitive posting of scans that already answered you questions.

That was like at the very end, last Two pages of the series.

Btw. It was later revealed that Beyonder allowed that,
(faking his own death)
to finally leave the Multiverse for good.

That's how he chose to depart.

Sorry just wasn't ready to go over 6 pages what I think is long complicated post to look for one question.

leonidas

Originally posted by Mr Master
Your logic makes sense, but,

Beyonder's feats still trump anything Thanos did. smile

They're just being ignored, to give Thanos the win.

i agree 100% with this. don't forget, i'm of the opinion thanos did NOT absorb the 'omniverse'. so imo b's feats FAR exceed anything thanos ever did with the hoti. smile

i was looking at it from the pov of someone who DID think thanos absorbed the omniverse. even from that perspective, i can still understand why you'd think beyonder would win. wink

and galan -- i understand the reluctance to stray from on-panel. but just as we need to use logic at times to decide what is or isn't pis on-panel, we can also use logic at times to decide when on-panel feats are or are not enough.

s'all's i'm sayin. smile

Galan007

Originally posted by leonidas
i agree 100% with this. don't forget, i'm of the opinion thanos did NOT absorb the 'omniverse'. so imo b's feats FAR exceed anything thanos ever did with the hoti. smile

i was looking at it from the pov of someone who DID think thanos absorbed the omniverse. even from that perspective, i can still understand why you'd think beyonder would win. wink

Looking at it from your viewpoint, -- I would easily see Beyonder winning.

But it's my personal view that Thanos absorbed more -- which is one of the reasons I personally think he takes this.

Not trying to sway the opinion of others -- just expressing my view. smile

By it's also MO that neither of them is 'truly' omnipotent. . srug

Mr Master

Originally posted by Galan007

But it's my personal view that Thanos absorbed more --
which is one of the reasons I personally think he takes this.
Thanos did absorb all of Space-Time in Marvel.

But the only significant Reality he absorbed was the infinite prime Multiverse,
cause that's where ALL the uber Cosmic power of Marvel is concentrated in.

Thanos defeated the LT (the rest are inconsequential)

=====

Beyonder created a Multiverse from scratch,
quintilions of times greater than that infinite Prime Multiverse.

Beyonder made the LT poop in his cosmic pants.

That's why imo, Beyonder's feats were #1.

Yet, I still say stalemate. smile

Xplosive

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yes really.

Because you say so?

Originally posted by Mr Master
The LT was afraid of the Beyonder, Desperate in FACT:

I can't believe you actually think it's more impressive to scare someone than what THOTI did.
LT knew he can't do anything with anyone help to Thanos with THOTI.
THOTI did that actually, PR Beyonder didn't. Did PR Beyonder destroy MM? Look what THOTI did. Again, not quite a feat as what THOTI did.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Show us where it's stated that Beyonder wasn't infinite anymore.

PR Beyonder having the power of millions multiverses; 1000000 does not equal infinity

Galan007

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's why imo, Beyonder's feats were #1. Cool.

That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. smile

Mr Master

Originally posted by Xplosive
Because you say so?

Nah, because Marvel's Editor in-chief says so.
Originally posted by Xplosive

I can't believe you actually think it's more impressive to scare someone,
than what THOTI did.
Uhh, yea.
Originally posted by Xplosive

LT knew he can't do anything with anyone help to Thanos with THOTI.
Actually,
if the LT would've known he couldn't do anything, he wouldn't have even tried.

Like in the Beyonder's case, where the LT REALLY WAS AFRAID. (ON PANEL proven)
and didn't dare raise a finger.

You can run around this fact after I posted the proof for you,
but that's your problem dogs.
Originally posted by Xplosive

THOTI did that actually, PR Beyonder didn't.
THOTI defeated the LT.

Beyonder defeated Molecule Man who was MORE powerful than the LT.
Originally posted by Xplosive

Did PR Beyonder destroy MM?
Look what THOTI did.
Beyonder didn't want to destroy MM or the Multiverse at the end,
this was revealed later.

He just wanted to go return to the Beyond Realm and be left alone.

Again, did you read any of this,
or are you just debating by grabing info out the air?
Originally posted by Xplosive

Again, not quite a feat as what THOTI did.
Oh I agree.

Beyonder creating a Multiverse infinitely (quintillions of times) greater,
than the Prime infinite Multiverse is definitely the better feat.
Originally posted by Xplosive

PR Beyonder having the power of millions multiverses;
1000000 does not equal infinity
Actually, that's Millions of infinite Prime MultiverseS.

So you're right, it does not equal infinity,
but in fact,
it surpasses infinity quintillions of times over.

smile

Xplosive

Originally posted by Mr Master
Nah, because Marvel's Editor in-chief says so.

Aha, so he said scaring someone is more impressive than crushing him in comics?

And he didn't say PR Beyonder>THOTI.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually, that's Millions of infinite Prime MultiverseS.

So you're right, it does not equal infinity,
but in fact,
it surpasses infinity quintillions of times over. smile

Still, not infinity infinity. In any case, when you have numbers, forget about infinity.

Galan007

Originally posted by Xplosive
In any case, when you have numbers, forget about infinity. True.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Xplosive

Aha,
so he said scaring someone is more impressive than crushing him in comics?
Aha:

....................................................................

The LT was afraid of the Beyonder, Desperate in FACT:

....................................................................

When Uatu gathered the Cosmic Hierarchy (the LT included)

the In-Betweener says about Mephisto,

"Surely this is his day of last resorts ... he is desperate ... AS ARE WE"

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2595/beyo1hr6.th.jpg

I believe "WE" included the LT yes

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Mr Master

Fact is,

Beyonder's Multiverse was an OCEAN,
and the INFINITE Prime Multiverse was a DROPLET of WATER!!!

Is this so hard to comprehend?

Lets not exaggerate your idol Mr Master.

Beyonder was never a multiverse, he was the embodiment of a universe outside of the marvel multiverse.

Bio account:

"comprised all of the other-dimensional universe called the Beyond Realm"

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/2/4812144540.jpg

On panel account:

"Beyond time and space.....lies another universe.....The One Who Is All in that other universe.."

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/2/4812172876.jpg

leonidas

Originally posted by Galan007
By it's also MO that neither of them is 'truly' omnipotent. . srug

it doesn't disagree with my view at all. smile

(well, except for the whole 'he absorbed the multiverse' part of course. wink

)

GN.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Aha:

....................................................................

The LT was afraid of the Beyonder, Desperate in FACT:

....................................................................

When Uatu gathered the Cosmic Hierarchy (the LT included)

the In-Betweener says about Mephisto,

"Surely this is his day of last resorts ... he is desperate ... AS ARE WE"

I believe "WE" included the LT yes

@Galatic No, the interview with the creator of the character proves hes a multiverse. And marvel multiverse is just called Universe alot to.

Mr Master

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Lets not exaggerate your idol Mr Master.
Unlike you're exaggerations, Mr Master keeps it real.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Beyonder was never a multiverse,
he was the embodiment of a universe outside of the marvel multiverse.

Bio account:

"comprised all of the other-dimensional universe called the Beyond Realm"
Oh, so NOW Bios have relevance>

But you're dismissing the Bios in WC Phoenix mini Gauntlet thread. durlaugh

..............................................................................

Anywho, directly from the WRITER/EDITOR in-chief of Marvel,
in his own words:

..............................................................................

Jim Shooter - creator/writer of Secret Wars/Beyonder
(while he was Editor in chief of Marvel)

Get's interviewed ... about the Beyonder.

Marvel Age is an official Marvel title, created to strictly discuss Marvel stories,
and other intricacies concerning Marvel comics.

Jim Shooter on Beyonder:

Jim states:

1. Beyonder "is a Multi-verse."

2. Beyonder "was like God before there was Genesis."

3. Beyonder's discovery of "our Universe ...

.... was like when inventor Leeuwenhoek, looked through his micro-scope ...

.... and discovered little paramecia swimming in a drop of water ... "

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3339/jim1wp8.th.jpg

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/7402/jim2mj1.th.jpg

..............................................................................

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
On panel account:

"Beyond time and space.....lies another universe.....The One Who Is All in that other universe.."

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4372/beyonderismultikh8.th.jpg

"Beyonder, the entity that embodied all the substance of Another Multiverse"

..............................................................................

Ahh, this is too easy sometimes. smile

Mr Master

Originally posted by GN.
Can u plz tell me from what marvel age issue the interview is? sad

@Galatic No, the interview with the creator of the character proves hes a multiverse. And marvel multiverse is just called Universe alot to.
Sorry GN, I been caught up with this person that continues to demean truth,
and hype up fallacies.

Give me one sec, cause I have to find it on my disk.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Mr Master
Unlike you're exaggerations, Mr Master keeps it real.

Oh, so NOW Bios have relevance>

But you're dismissing the Bios in WC Phoenix mini Gauntlet thread. durlaugh

..............................................................................

Anywho, directly from the WRITER/EDITOR in-chief of Marvel,
in his own words:

..............................................................................

Jim Shooter - creator/writer of Secret Wars/Beyonder
(while he was Editor in chief of Marvel)

Get's interviewed ... about the Beyonder.

Marvel Age is an official Marvel title, created to strictly discuss Marvel stories,
and other intricacies concerning Marvel comics.

Jim Shooter on Beyonder:

Jim states:

1. Beyonder "is a Multi-verse."

2. Beyonder "was like God before there was Genesis."

3. Beyonder's discovery of "our Universe ...

.... was like when inventor Leeuwenhoek, looked through his micro-scope ...

.... and discovered little paramecia swimming in a drop of water ... "

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3339/jim1wp8.th.jpg

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/7402/jim2mj1.th.jpg

..............................................................................

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4372/beyonderismultikh8.th.jpg

"Beyonder, the entity that embodied all the substance of Another Multiverse"

..............................................................................

Ahh, this is too easy sometimes. smile

Nope.

Bios which support on panel accounts are perfectly valid.
Coupled together such evidence is indisputable.

However a bio entry which contradicts whats shown on panel or talks of matters not shown on panel is very mucl fallible.

Learn the difference smile

You have a bio entry and an on panel account and i have the same, both giving conflicting evidence.

Just a few questions, when Beyonder was dispersed at the end of Secret Wars, did his energy go on to become a multiverse or a universe? confused

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/2/4813391229.jpg

Ok. smile

No Secret War spin offs from me. Just scans from the ACTUAL Secret Wars title and from a Pre retcon bio.

That will be all.

Mr Master

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Bios which support on panel accounts are perfectly valid.
Coupled together such evidence is indisputable.

However a bio entry which contradicts whats shown on panel or talks of matters not shown on panel is very mucl fallible.

Learn the difference

Only one difference here between us, Lies, and Truth.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

You have a bio entry and an on panel account and i have the same, both giving conflicting evidence.

Just a few questions, when Beyonder was dispersed at the end of Secret Wars, did his energy go on to become a multiverse or a universe?

No Secret War spin offs from me. Just scans from the ACTUAL Secret Wars title and from a Pre retcon bio.

That will be all.

This isn't a Bio entry, nice try on yet another Lie.

..............................................................................

Anywho, directly from the WRITER/EDITOR in-chief of Marvel,

in his own words:

..............................................................................

Jim Shooter - creator/writer of Secret Wars/Beyonder
(while he was Editor in chief of Marvel)

Get's interviewed ... about the Beyonder.

Marvel Age is an official Marvel title,
created to strictly discuss Marvel stories,
and other intricacies concerning Marvel comics.

Jim Shooter on Beyonder:

Jim states:

1. Beyonder "is a Multi-verse."

2. Beyonder "was like God before there was Genesis."

3. Beyonder's discovery of "our Universe ...

.... was like when inventor Leeuwenhoek, looked through his micro-scope ...

.... and discovered little paramecia swimming in a drop of water ... "

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3339/jim1wp8.th.jpg

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/2756/jim2mj1au8.jpg

..............................................................................

Furhter supported On Panel:

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4372/beyonderismultikh8.th.jpg

"Beyonder, the entity that embodied all the substance of Another Multiverse"

..............................................................................

GalacticStorm

Putting your words in bold and enlarging both the size of them and your scans does nothing.

I have Secret Wars 2 scans stating my point, i then have an official bio stating it.

Secret Wars 2 starts off by saying Beyonder is a universe outside of the Marvel universe, it ends with Beyonder being reverted to a universe.

As creator and editor of the Beyonder you'd think if he really wanted Beyonder to be a multiverse the idea would have made it to print in the official title laughing

Air Legend

Especially thumb down

to posting the last page of Secret Wars 2. There should be copyright laws against that.

GN.

Marvel is reffered to as universe alot to. While they mean multiverse. Its the same thing.

Mr Master

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Putting your words in bold and enlarging both the size of them and your scans does nothing.

I have Secret Wars 2 scans stating my point, i then have an official bio stating it.

Secret Wars 2 starts off by saying Beyonder is a universe outside of the Marvel universe, it ends with Beyonder being reverted to a universe.

Just like the Marvel Universe "Our Universe" as stated On Panel,
was a Multiverse.

So Beyonder's Universe was a Multiverse as well.

Only infinitely greater/larger/more powerful.

.......................................................................................

As we know, "Our Universe" = the infinite Multiverse:

Beyonder exploring said "Our Universe:

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/4553/beyonderexploresthemulino2.th.jpg

"Odd thing He had noticed about Our Universe"

"Namely,
that it is Many-Layered-composed of a seemingly Endless Number of Dimensions,

indeed, it is a MULTIVERSE"

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/172/beyonderexploresthemulitverse2ni5.th.jpg

Beyonder passes by the Microverse.
(located in a Universe outside and separate from the 616 Reality)

Beyonder even reaches the Cross Roads of Infinity located in the Negative Zone
(also located Way outside the 616 universe)

The Makers re-created the entire Universe that contains the Microverse,
in fact, they created the Microverse from scratch.

The Negative Zone .. well,
we ALL know it's located outside 616 from the Annihilation Arc.

Don't let the haters fool yall. smile

.......................................................................................

Btw. In Marvel, Dimensions are whole Universes:

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/585/42174989ki6.th.jpg

whistling

Pocket dimensions are not.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

As creator and editor of the Beyonder you'd think if he really wanted Beyonder to be a multiverse the idea would have made it to print in the official title

Beyonder is made up of an INFINITE amount of dimensions.

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/843/img010xx4.th.jpg

You must be laughing at how you're getting owned back to back,
and still somehow you're shamless enough to continue posting.

GalacticStorm

Grant Morrisson wanted the Phoenix Corps to be Marvels equivalent of angels, he even stated he wanted them to be a cross between the green lantern Corps and heavens host as stated in the TPB. Just because he created the concepts, does that mean his desires for the characters AFTER the story has made it to print are greater than the actual comic? confused

Greater than the official comic and official bio which state the same thing? confused

MAIN OFFICIAL TITLE AND OFFICIAL BIO>SPIN OFF SECRET WARS ISSUE AND A FANZINE INTERVIEW laughing

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Mr Master
Just like the Marvel Universe "Our Universe" as stated On Panel,
was a Multiverse.

So Beyonder's Universe was a Multiverse as well.

Only infinitely greater/larger/more powerful.

.......................................................................................

As we know, "Our Universe" = the infinite Multiverse:

Beyonder exploring said "Our Universe:

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/4553/beyonderexploresthemulino2.th.jpg

"Odd thing He had noticed about Our Universe"

"Namely,
that it is Many-Layered-composed of a seemingly Endless Number of Dimensions,

indeed, it is a MULTIVERSE"

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/172/beyonderexploresthemulitverse2ni5.th.jpg

Beyonder passes by the Microverse.
(located in a Universe outside and separate from the 616 Reality)

Beyonder even reaches the Cross Roads of Infinity located in the Negative Zone
(also located Way outside the 616 universe)

The Makers re-created the entire Universe that contains the Microverse,
in fact, they created the Microverse from scratch.

The Negative Zone .. well,
we ALL know it's located outside 616 from the Annihilation Arc.

Don't let the haters fool yall. smile

.......................................................................................

Btw. In Marvel, Dimensions are whole Universes:

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/585/42174989ki6.th.jpg

whistling

Pocket dimensions are not.

Beyonder is made up of an INFINITE amount of dimensions.

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/843/img010xx4.th.jpg

You must be laughing at how you're getting owned back to back,
and still somehow you're shamless enough to continue posting.

Hold up, so now you're agreeing that Beyonder is saying that 616 is itself a multiverse? confused

Mr Master

Originally posted by GN.

Marvel is reffered to as universe alot to. While they mean multiverse.
Its the same thing.
thumb up

Precisely, not that it will make a difference,
you see,
the dude is governed by intransigence.

And all parites that are above the Phoenix must be discredited and/or demeaned,
because if this.

Don't you see, that all the PROOF in the world doesn't affect his one track mind? laughing out loud

It's actually kinda funny to me cause I'm used it.

The fallacies, fabrication of scans, it's the same ol' ploy since 3 years agao.

Mr Master

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Hold up, so now you're agreeing that Beyonder is saying that 616 is itself a multiverse?
Seriously, I don't know what weed you smokin,
but I suggest you leave them drugs alone.

616 has NEVER been a Multiverse, not ever.

the Multiverse, is .. the Multiverse,
an infinite number of alternate UnverseS.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Mr Master
Seriously, I don't know what weed you smokin,
but I suggest you leave them drugs alone.

616 has NEVER been a Multiverse, not ever.

the Multiverse, is .. the Multiverse,
an infinite number of alternate UnverseS.

You've just agreed with GN that universe is used to refer to a multiverse and that Beyonder said that the 616 universe equals a multiverse and when i question that you say the universe has never been a multiverse?

erm

and I'M on smokin'

GN.

Dont twist my words. A universe isent used to refer to as a multiverse. But sometimes they just say universe while they mean multiverse.

Mr Master

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

You've just agreed with GN that universe is used to refer to a multiverse
and that Beyonder said that the 616 universe equals a multiverse
and when i question that you say the universe has never been a multiverse?
Beyonder has NEVER in his existence said that 616 = a Multiverse.

Nice try, every attempt at twisting facts has been derailed today.

The streak continues.

Only die hard fans overlook what you're doing.

You post an unreadable bio in the WC Phoenix mini DC Gauntlet thread,
and it's praised.

I come in and make that same scan readable, expose the fallacy,
and the scan is immediately dismissed by the same two.

Hypocricy at it's finest.