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Two versions.
With infinity Gems
With out Infinity Gems

And its Authority team from volume 1 #1

Then the Illuminati in a curbstomp, in either scenario.

Vol. 1 Issue #1, it was Jenny Sparks (not Quantum) and The Doctor had never used his powers on a large scale. The first time he did so, he passed out. With the big guns non-factors, The Authority might put up a fight (it would need to be in a city for them to have a prayer at that point) but that's about it.

Indeed - this is a bit unfair.

If we consider the team from the original Authority, but also consider the later showings of power....

I'd say the Doctor'd have a good chance of solo'ing(without the infinity gems), considering how big a punk Strange acts these days.

What Soljer said, but it would need to be current Doctor, or at least later in Jeroen's run.

Get past Strange and no one really has the kind of defense to avoid getting turned into dice by the Doctor. But again, Issue #1 Doctor wouldn't be able to handle it.

Strange is the big problem but if we used crappy Strange it might go different.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Then the Illuminati in a curbstomp, in either scenario.

Vol. 1 Issue #1, it was Jenny Sparks (not Quantum) and The Doctor had never used his powers on a large scale. The first time he did so, he passed out. With the big guns non-factors, The Authority might put up a fight (it would need to be in a city for them to have a prayer at that point) but that's about it.

You miss understood, feats are not restricted to issue 1, of Authority.

Its simply the character line up, as it was introduced in v1 #1 in Authority.

So basically the Doctor vs Illuminati

50/50 split without

Illuminati stomp with if they can use the gems with any sort of effectiveness.

With the gems, the Illuminati definitely wins. Without them, I'm not sure. I would probably give the win to the Authority. Strange would definitely be the problem, but I'm not sure he can cast a good enough protection spell faster than the Doctor could severely harm the team.

Originally posted by id369
You miss understood, feats are not restricted to issue 1, of Authority.

Its simply the character line up, as it was introduced in v1 #1 in Authority.

Oh.

Well then. That changes things.

As with most team fights, it would come down to the big guns. If the Doctor could beat Strange, that's ballgame. Or vice versa.

Put it in a city and I like the Authority's chances, because MNer/Angie > Panther/Tony, Jack (in city)/Apollo would be roughly equal to maybe Namor/BB, Jenny could shut down Xavier's brain function, etc.

With gems, obviously a different fight.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Oh.

Well then. That changes things.

As with most team fights, it would come down to the big guns. If the Doctor could beat Strange, that's ballgame. Or vice versa.

Put it in a city and I like the Authority's chances, because MNer/Angie > Panther/Tony, Jack (in city)/Apollo would be roughly equal to maybe Namor/BB, Jenny could shut down Xavier's brain function, etc.

With gems, obviously a different fight.

I wouldn't say that Jack and Apollo could take Namor and Black Bolt.

I would, however, be confident in saying that the Doctor could kick the shit out of current Strange, and that Jack and Apollo would be able to hold off Namor and Black Bolt for long enough for Jeroen to solo everyone else.

Originally posted by Soljer
I'd say the Doctor'd have a good chance of solo'ing(without the infinity gems), considering how big a punk Strange acts these days. I never really followed the Authority..

What makes the Doctor such a badass?

Originally posted by Soljer
I wouldn't say that Jack and Apollo could take Namor and Black Bolt.

I would, however, be confident in saying that the Doctor could kick the shit out of current Strange, and that Jack and Apollo would be able to hold off Namor and Black Bolt for long enough for Jeroen to solo everyone else.

Fair enough. My logic was Namor < Jack (in city) < Apollo < BB ....so I made them equal for the fight's purposes.

Originally posted by Galan007
I never really followed the Authority..

What makes the Doctor such a badass?

Lots of things. Check out his respect thread for the details, or any of my tourney matches ( ). Basically, he has more powers than Jesus (actually, it's true in WS continuity because Jesus was a former "Doctor" and top-shelf matter manipulation skills, so most of his enemies end up transmuted into hippie imagery.

Originally posted by Galan007
I never really followed the Authority..

What makes the Doctor such a badass?

In short, I'll ask you to look at the respect thread.

It's a cop out answer, sure...but if I were to tell you, I'd pretty much just be reciting the thread anyways, and I'm sure whatever I could say has already been said there - likely in a more eloquent fashion, and with scans.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Lots of things. Check out his respect thread for the details, or any of my tourney matches ( ). Basically, he has more powers than Jesus (actually, it's true in WS continuity because Jesus was a former "Doctor" and top-shelf matter manipulation skills, so most of his enemies end up transmuted into hippie imagery. Jesus? That's great!

I saw a scan where someone was blown to pieces, but pulled himself back together in an instant, and made some sort of cheeky comment. A badass instance, iirc.

Wasn't that the Doctor?

Originally posted by Galan007
Jesus? That's great!

I saw a scan where someone was blown to pieces, but pulled himself back together in an instant, and made some sort of cheeky comment. A badass instance, iirc.

Wasn't that the Doctor?

That was an ex-Doctor who recived the Doctor's powers temporarily.

Jack in a desent sized city beats Namor most probably. Namor has the advantage of flight, but Jack is incredibly agile and (the ability some people tend to forget) can draw power from the city to increase his physical stats like he did against Regis.
Though the best he can hope against Black Bolt is not getting killed...but if he keeps himself merged and distracts BB long enough for Doctor to transmute him in a scared puppy...

Originally posted by Galan007
Jesus? That's great!

I saw a scan where someone was blown to pieces, but pulled himself back together in an instant, and made some sort of cheeky comment. A badass instance, iirc.

Wasn't that the Doctor?

As Erik pointed out...

Kind of.

It was one of the Authority's enemies after he was given Jeroen's powers.

Cool beans.

Thanks all!

Originally posted by Galan007
Cool beans.

Thanks all!

A pleasure. .

Illuminati destroy em with the gems

2nd fight...either way

Illuminati wins both scenarios.

The Doctor would finally know what's to get his ass kicked by the one and only Sorcerer Supreme!

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Illuminati wins both scenarios.

The Doctor would finally know what's to get his ass kicked by the one and only Sorcerer Supreme!

You've seen current Strange, right?

Anyway, Classic Strange has a few more uber showings, but Jeroen's stuff only requires him to think about it. Strange has to cast spells and such. So there's the initiative edge to The Doctor.

I have a few questions.

Can the Illuminati actually use the gems period? 2nd, is the IG still non-viable due to LT's decree? 3rd, isn't the doctor more powerful than the gems? Or rather, could he make them not work? 4th, would Blackbolt screaming and nuking the city cause Hawksmoore to die? This is assuming the illuminati knew about Hawksmoor's powers. Has anyone ever tried destroying the city around him to weaken him?

Also, Jesus being a doctor=priceless.

Doctor is in no way more powerful then the gems. Blackbolt screaming would cause everyone and everything to die. You don't need to destroy a city to beat Hawksmoore.

The Doctor is <<<<< the gems at max potential. There's no way he could negate them. He could defend against them maybe, and still fight, but he couldn't just cut off their power or something, and would quickly be overwhelmed with competent gem-wielders.

But yes, Joey, if Jack's in a city it would need to be destroyed...maybe not entirely but pretty thoroughly. And given his bevy of showings inside a city, the onus would be on someone else (you, perhaps?) to show any instances of him being bested in a city by other means.

The fight against the evil Doctor comes to mind, when he was holding Jack above the ground and tk-squeezing him. But that's about it. Once he merges with the city, I don't see another way to take him out.

So to beat Hawksmoor, you either need to take him out of the city, herald level power, or level the city? Not bad.

Can the illuminati actually use the gems? 2nd, who's the better technopath, Tony or Angie?

Originally posted by DigiMark007


But yes, Joey, if Jack's in a city it would need to be destroyed...maybe not entirely but pretty thoroughly.

No it wouldn't. Maybe if you wanted to kill him, I guess, but I don't see a reason to beliee Jack would regen from getting his head ripped off, and we all know how the Illuminati feels about killing.

And given his bevy of showings inside a city, the onus would be on someone else (you, perhaps?) to show any instances of him being bested in a city by other means.

Getting his ass kicked by Midnighter in the beginning of Revolution? The Wolf dude towards the end of the first arc? Fake Doctor? Not many legit showings you could judge Hawksmoore in the city on, all he does is kill jobbers and hop around. But when he faces a legit threat, he generally is folded pretty quickly.

I don't see another way to take him out.

That's really more your unwarranted high opinion on the Authority based on their ability to beat jobbers.

For instance, Apollo is somehow more powerful then Namor (well his eyebeams are cool I guess, but they do drain him pretty quickly) as is Jack in the City.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
So to beat Hawksmoor, you either need to take him out of the city, herald level power, or level the city? Not bad.

Can the illuminati actually use the gems? 2nd, who's the better technopath, Tony or Angie?

Pretty much. But outside a city most of us could beat him up. He's got some H2H skill but goes into shock from being away from a city.

And I dunno about them using it. But I'd have to say Angie for technopathy. She can infect machinery with nano-bots to destroy it from the inside...she even injected them into MNer's brain once to destroy machinery in it that was controlling him. She's also, once or twice, simply extended her liquid machinery into a machine to glean information from it. Tony has some good feats too, but she's just > than him in most categories.

Doing research for Hawkeye's tourney?

...

As for Joey, MNer and Jack fought for about 3 panels, and they each landed a blow before stopping, and it was strictly H2H. It was far from the bloodlusted "I'll crash a city block into you" Hawksmoor that we see when he fights villians.

The Doctor feat I gave you...and no one on the Illuminati possesses those powers other than Strange, who would need to fight the Doctor.

Don't remember the wolf guy..and I lost that arc. I'll have to take your word for it, or just assume that you downplay Authority feats like every other time. Or maybe it's the wolf-thing from Vol. 2 that Jack casually pwned with a wave of his arm. Or maybe Jack wasn't in a city then, when he suffers most of his losses. Not sure.

Anyway, when a wolf-dude can beat someone who can merge your head with concrete or wear an entire city as battle armor (both of which he's done), we'll talk.

And I forgot you hate the Authority...I hope we face each other in the tourney.

I just want to point out that outside of Thanos and Warlock, the illuminati are likely the most competent gem users to date.

I don't hate the Authority, Jenny Sparks in particular is a favorite, you just have a fanboyishly high opinion on them based on their ability to beat jobbers and sorta manipulate the boards into parroting this high opinion. I just don't really care enough to scan stuff outside of tournies.

You don't need to be Doctor level to put an ass kicking on Hawksmoore, Cap would mess Hawksmoore up. All Hawksmoore is, is Sand with Blade level stats, except Sand has done stuff that Hawksmoore would shit his pants at the sound of even attempting, maybe Terra level would be better (though even she has done stuff that Hawksmoore probably couldn't).

His wearing armor feat not only gets taken out of context on this board it was one shot as hell in one of the worst written mini's (well as far as following actual continuity) ever, Hawksmoore himself doesn't even remember he has the ability (which is actually stated in the comics).

Hell, I'm not even sure if I the Sparks mini should be taken as canon/seriously the way it almost completely ignores what happened Stormwatch.

As for the actual fights, they each landed a blow and were stopped because at the rate they were going they would eventually KILL each other. Not to mention the only reason Hawksmoore even landed the blow was because Midnighter was being manipulated by Bendix.

No it was the wolf guy who was trying to marry Sparks during her mini and came back for revenge and put the ass kicking on Hawksmoore and Midnighter until Hawksmoore burst through his chest or some such.

I hope we don't meet in the tourney, I might be forced to remind the board that Doctor's been killed by


Kev.

Angie >>> Stark, in technopathy.

Originally posted by Papa Smurph
Kev.

Kev's gun, rather, which was programmed to pinpoint a character's weakness and exploit it (be it a dimensional-frequency weakness that could harm them or simply a physical one). A shame you won't have the gun.



And I like that you pointed out that Jack killed the guy who you were using as evidence for his failures.

Also, Cap?!?! In H2H, sure. But how would cap deal with a building falling on him, or being phased into a road?

Maybe you aren't a hater of the Authority, and maybe I overestimate them, but stuff like that is just plain silly...it doesn't make Jack look any less powerful to others, it just makes you look less knowledgable about them.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Kev's gun, rather, which was programmed to pinpoint a character's weakness and exploit it (be it a dimensional-frequency weakness that could harm them or simply a physical one). A shame you won't have the gun.



And I like that you pointed out that Jack killed the guy who you were using as evidence for his failures.

Also, Cap?!?! In H2H, sure. But how would cap deal with a building falling on him, or being phased into a road?

Maybe you aren't a hater of the Authority, and maybe I overestimate them, but stuff like that is just plain silly...it doesn't make Jack look any less powerful to others, it just makes you look less knowledgable about them.

I can't recall you ever overrating the Authority...

Maybe I just missed it? *shrug*

A piece of tech (which we all know isn't even close to cosmic level, more or less, the Authority really isn't that tough) is able to take out the universal shaman, for shame.

Jack killed the guy because he was busy beating on Midnighter after easily dismissing him, not because Jack decided to work at Digi levels of efficiency on an opponent actually worth 2 cents for a change.

Why would Jack Hawksmoore drop a building on Captain America? That was a rather fanboyish statement to make.

Like I said, you overrate the Authority to a disgusting extent.

All Jack Hawksmoore is, is a brutal Sand with worse durability, who in no shape is near the world beater he is portrayed in these topics.

Originally posted by Papa Smurph
A piece of tech (which we all know isn't even close to cosmic level, more or less, the Authority really isn't that tough) is able to take out the universal shaman, for shame.


Doctor Strange couldn't handle Hitler's Gun....

That's nice. The Doctor couldn't handle heroin

or Rose Tattoo.

Originally posted by Papa Smurph
That's nice. The Doctor couldn't handle heroin

or Rose Tattoo.

The Doctor voluntarily taking a very powerful opiate is somehow an example of him being low powered?

Yup, that makes him what, Captain America level? Blade maybe?

How is Rose Tattoo using heroin on Joeren during sex and her being the spirit of murder a low showing? Didn't someone say she can kill anything?

Originally posted by Papa Smurph
Yup, that makes him what, Captain America level? Blade maybe?

Or....

Doctor Strange level? Green Lanterns?

There are plenty of very high powered characters that still have humanity. Jeroen is just one example.

And Heroin Jeroen, like the high powered Dr. Strange and Green Lanterns, should be able to heal himself/rid the poison from his system damn near instantly


Common sense

I would say the Illuminati win both scenarios for a majority.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Basically, he has more powers than Jesus (actually, it's true in WS continuity because Jesus was a former "Doctor"

Seriously?

Originally posted by Papa Smurph
Why would Jack Hawksmoore drop a building on Captain America?

Because it's in his power set? And he's done it numerous times before?

But yeah, you're right. Clearly he'd do nothing but H2H.



Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I would say the Illuminati win both scenarios for a majority.



Seriously?

The Earth's Shaman is a reincarnated being that inhabits a new body once the old one dies. It's not a person unto itself, but more a spirit...so Jeroen, habib, etc. are still themselves, but with the experiences and powers of all teh former Doctors.

Every major religious figure in history was a Doctor, including Jesus. They use it to explain away the turning water to wine and other miracles.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Lots of things. Check out his respect thread for the details, or any of my tourney matches ( ). Basically, he has more powers than Jesus (actually, it's true in WS continuity because Jesus was a former "Doctor" and top-shelf matter manipulation skills, so most of his enemies end up transmuted into hippie imagery.
Wait so you drafted Jesus in the tourney... bullshit, Bullshit, BULLSHIT !

Whenever a Illuminati fight pops up, everyone ignores the rest of the team and focuses on Dr. Strange. Being that BB has one of the single most destructive powers on Marvel earth, Xavier can shut people down with a thought, and Namor holds multiple wins over the Hulk, I think we are discounting the rest of the team a bit. Not to mention Iron Man brings some decent firepower to the team. Reed I can understand overlooking ONLY if the fight stipulates no prep and no extra gear. Im giving this to the Illuminati.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Because it's in his power set? And he's done it numerous times before?


So because it's in his power set he will kill Captain America.

Only person on the Authority I could see attempting that would be Midnighter, but he'd probably make a quip about not even he's a big enough bastard to kill the symbol for all that is right on the Earth.

Let's try thinking objectively and applying character instead of just looking at powersets and arguing like a fanboy next time.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Wait so you drafted Jesus in the tourney... bullshit, Bullshit, BULLSHIT !

Actually Habib is more powerful then Jesus because Doctor's get stronger with each incarnation.

He's probably x100 fold stronger.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Wait so you drafted Jesus in the tourney... bullshit, Bullshit, BULLSHIT !

To be fair, Christianity in the WS universe is invalidated by that revelation (yet another reason to love the Authority ), so he's just a historical figure who had some low-level matter manip. powers, not the human incarnation of God.

Originally posted by Papa Smurph
So because it's in his power set he will kill Captain America.

You realize you're arguing for "in character" arguments, when all combatants are assumed to be at peak levels for KMC purposes, right? Though I'm sure you'd have no problem following that rule for, say, Hulk.

Besides, they kill ANYONE they face. Cap would be no exception...and he'd at least get his ass beat. it's not like Jack couldn't have a part of a building attack him, knocking him out but not killing him.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
To be fair, Christianity in the WS universe is invalidated by that revelation (yet another reason to love the Authority ), so he's just a historical figure who had some low-level matter manip. powers, not the human incarnation of God.



You realize you're arguing for "in character" arguments, when all combatants are assumed to be at peak levels for KMC purposes, right? Though I'm sure you'd have no problem following that rule for, say, Hulk.

Besides, they kill ANYONE they face. Cap would be no exception...and he'd at least get his ass beat.
Oh ok... I thought I was going to have to go Trickster on your ass there for a second...

Originally posted by darthgoober
Oh ok... I thought I was going to have to go Trickster on your ass there for a second...

If we're to believe allusive evidence from The Garden of Ancestral Memory (The Doctor's home dimension) he's been Mohammad and the Buddha as well (though this is a bit speculative, because we see images that are probably them, but we don't know for certain), and there's also a line about him "walking the path of religion before" from the past Doctor, so we know he's attempted to enlighten the people of earth in the past too. This was when Jeroen started his own religion briefly.

So they can't all be right (th religions)....so there's no real need to worry. I'm not going to call down the Old Testament God on you or anything.

Originally posted by Papa Smurph
Actually Habib is more powerful then Jesus because Doctor's get stronger with each incarnation.

He's probably x100 fold stronger.
No it's probably close to 1,000,000,000x since each Doctor is twice as strong as the previous, and it's been 2000 years.

Originally posted by King Kandy
No it's probably close to 1,000,000,000x since each Doctor is twice as strong as the previous, and it's been 2000 years.

2000 years. Assuming about 60 years per Doctor.

Thats 2^33.333...

11,000,000,000x as strong.

Twice as strong? Don't remember reading that...just "more powerful than the last." I'd have to look up the quote though, so you might be right.

In any case, he's still not above Classic Strange levels, so with that little tidbit we should probably start working our way back to the topic.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Wait so you drafted Jesus in the tourney... bullshit, Bullshit, BULLSHIT !

Actually, each Doctor is more powerful than the previous one...

So, if Digi drafted Habib, he'd also have all of Jeroen's feats. If he drafted Jeroen, he'd also have all of Jesus' feats.

Digi didn't draft Jesus...he drafted Jesus++.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Twice as strong? Don't remember reading that...just "more powerful than the last." I'd have to look up the quote though, so you might be right.
Well, each Doctor has the power of all previous Doctors. So in Habib's case:

Power of all Doctors before Jeroen. In other words, the same power Jeroen had.

Jeroen's powers, AKA another copy of the same thing. Therefore, Habib is 2x Jeroen.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Well, each Doctor has the power of all previous Doctors. So in Habib's case:

Power of all Doctors before Jeroen. In other words, the same power Jeroen had.

Jeroen's powers, AKA another copy of the same thing. Therefore, Habib is 2x Jeroen.

I can see where your logic comes from, but it's inherently flawed. The 'generational' nature of Doctors points towards an additive process, rather than a multiplicative one.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Pretty much. But outside a city most of us could beat him up. He's got some H2H skill but goes into shock from being away from a city.

And I dunno about them using it. But I'd have to say Angie for technopathy. She can infect machinery with nano-bots to destroy it from the inside...she even injected them into MNer's brain once to destroy machinery in it that was controlling him. She's also, once or twice, simply extended her liquid machinery into a machine to glean information from it. Tony has some good feats too, but she's just > than him in most categories.

Doing research for Hawkeye's tourney?

...

As for Joey, MNer and Jack fought for about 3 panels, and they each landed a blow before stopping, and it was strictly H2H. It was far from the bloodlusted "I'll crash a city block into you" Hawksmoor that we see when he fights villians.

The Doctor feat I gave you...and no one on the Illuminati possesses those powers other than Strange, who would need to fight the Doctor.

Don't remember the wolf guy..and I lost that arc. I'll have to take your word for it, or just assume that you downplay Authority feats like every other time. Or maybe it's the wolf-thing from Vol. 2 that Jack casually pwned with a wave of his arm. Or maybe Jack wasn't in a city then, when he suffers most of his losses. Not sure.

Anyway, when a wolf-dude can beat someone who can merge your head with concrete or wear an entire city as battle armor (both of which he's done), we'll talk.

And I forgot you hate the Authority...I hope we face each other in the tourney.



Not to mention, Digi darling, that the fight happened on Carrier and Jack couldn't use his urbanopathy- Carrier, being enormous yet almost unpopulated, keeps Jack healthy, but not powers him up.

And Papa Smurph has a record of saying silly nonsensical things about Jack... like that "huc" would beat him on Coruscant. It's either poor knowledge of the subject or he's just an Authority hater.

And as for being outside from the city...Jack remains fully functional for about 15 minutes, as seen there- where he wrecks some robots.
http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hrplanetaryauthority38rii2.jpg
http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hrplanetaryauthority39rne4.jpg

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Not to mention, Digi darling, that the fight happened on Carrier and Jack couldn't use his urbanopathy- Carrier, being enormous yet almost unpopulated, keeps Jack healthy, but not powers him up.

And Papa Smurph has a record of saying silly nonsensical things about Jack... like that "huc" would beat him on Coruscant. It's either poor knowledge of the subject or he's just an Authority hater.

This post was hilarious, incorrect fight AND piss poor knowledge of the characters in question.

Can someone remind me what, exactly, would Jack Hawksmoore do on Coruscant that he couldn't do in NYC? Turn into a planet mech and thus using an ability he himself doesn't even recall he has?

Oh look at the Robin level feats posted in the next post as proof of Hawksmoore's prowess really driving home statements that he isn't overrated and shouldn't be held in too high regard

Stop wanking the Authority, barring the reality manipulators they like to keep on their teams, they're really not that powerful. Hawksmoore runs just fine outside of a city, he had no problem living in a submarine and on the Carrier.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
If we're to believe allusive evidence from The Garden of Ancestral Memory (The Doctor's home dimension) he's been Mohammad and the Buddha as well (though this is a bit speculative, because we see images that are probably them, but we don't know for certain)
He's also been Hellboyverse Rasputin.

Authority #9, Page 16: http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a107/BSDQ/TheAuthority09-16.jpg

HB: Seed of Destruction #1, Page 4: http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a107/BSDQ/show2392.jpg

HB: SoD #3, Page 6: http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a107/BSDQ/22604-grigori-efimovich-ra_150.gif

Originally posted by King Kandy
Well, each Doctor has the power of all previous Doctors. So in Habib's case:

Power of all Doctors before Jeroen. In other words, the same power Jeroen had.

Jeroen's powers, AKA another copy of the same thing. Therefore, Habib is 2x Jeroen.

Not necessarily. There could be considerable overlap. You're assuming that they have all of the last Doctor's strength/powers, plus the exact amount. It doesn't work like that.

For example, Habib could have all of Jeroen's powers/experience, plus a couple others. Or it might be the same power level for all of them, but their experience increases as they gain the experience of past Doctors.

So you're assuming a lot. Yours is only one interpretation among many, and not the most likely one.

Originally posted by Soljer
I can see where your logic comes from, but it's inherently flawed. The 'generational' nature of Doctors points towards an additive process, rather than a multiplicative one.

Right.

Originally posted by Papa Smurph
This post was hilarious, incorrect fight AND piss poor knowledge of the characters in question.

Can someone remind me what, exactly, would Jack Hawksmoore do on Coruscant that he couldn't do in NYC? Turn into a planet mech and thus using an ability he himself doesn't even recall he has?

Oh look at the Robin level feats posted in the next post as proof of Hawksmoore's prowess really driving home statements that he isn't overrated and shouldn't be held in too high regard

Stop wanking the Authority, barring the reality manipulators they like to keep on their teams, they're really not that powerful. Hawksmoore runs just fine outside of a city, he had no problem living in a submarine and on the Carrier.

Huc can beat Jack on a planet-city.
Cap can beat Jack in a city.



Seriously, I don't "wank" anyone, because I know the detriment of over-playing a person's strength on these forums (see also: Storm, Hulk, etc.). Statements like these get your opinion invalidated by others because they can see for themselves that you're just ridiculously underrating everything about them.

Also, Jack doesn't remember wearing the city as armor? Proof? And if you say, "because he's never done it after that" he'll kill villains, but killing a city full of people to wear it is a bit much even for him.

Also, Jack can exist outside urban environments for brief periods and be fine. Saying "he's been on a sub" means, well, nothing...I don't even know what it begins to prove. But he's never displayed powers in that setting, unless it's H2H.

And the Carrier is considered a city by his physiology. So, um, yeah.

....

Somehow you think we just wank the Authority without regard. Apollo's a bad Superman knockoff, but still above the metas. MNer is Batman++ in fighting, Swift is a bird girl with wings...nothing special. Angie's versatile and fairly powerful...again, above metas but not much else. How exactly is this overrating them?

Originally posted by cyberborg84
He's also been Hellboyverse Rasputin.

Authority #9, Page 16: http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a107/BSDQ/TheAuthority09-16.jpg


Am I the only one who sees Einstein there?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Am I the only one who sees Einstein there? Nope.

John Constantine's in there too.

Originally posted by DigiMark007



Huc can beat Jack on a planet-city.
Cap can beat Jack in a city.


There's your annoyingly high fanboyish opinion on the Authority again, point out where I said Captain America would beat Hawksmoore in a city? I pointed out that Cap could knock him out in a H2H even in a city, thus Hawksmoore really isn't impressive d-bility wise (unlike my favorite comparison in Sand who tanks blows from top tiers regularly without even needing to become sand) and implying that Hawksmoore beats Captain America by killing him is a stupid thing to say given the basic knowledge we assume each other have on each other.

You don't think Hulk beats Hawksmoore in Coruscant is fine, but most knowledgeable comic heads who don't wank characters (that I've seen even make respect threads on this forum) believe it'd be a good fight that could go either way, you just wank on the Authority's chord hard.

Honestly your opinion of the Authority is similar to the people who overplay Storm and Hulk's hand. Apollo is in no way shape or form > Namor, you'd be hard pressed to even argue Apollo getting the majority against the Rhino without fighting using his head (something Apollo doesn't do), let alone a true Class 100 like Namor, don't even get me started on Hawksmoore.......

Who hasn't just been in a sub, he LIVED in one, throughout most his stint in Stormwatch Black and between the alien attack and finding the Carrier. He even commented on how sucky the base was. The Carrier is considered a city? Good, that means he's been killed on a city and gotten his stuff handled to him by Midnighter in a city, twice, while MNer was under mindcontrol.

Apollo's a bad Superman knock off that is no higher then Invincible (class 75) without sun ampage and has comparable intelligence to the Rhino. Without a strong leader to boss him around, he's nothing, do NOT even try to compare him to a legit top tier like Namor.

Swift is Angel with claws who kills, more or less, thus she doesn't really add much to fights like this. Midnighter is basically Deathstroke written in a brutal setting, his 'skill' revolves around waiting for his opponent to attack so he can react accordingly, not comparable to Bats in the least bit. Angie's versatile but no greater then Iron-Man, probably lesser then him, definately lesser then his current armor, I could never see Angie handle top tiers like Sentry and Thor any better then the way Iron Man has, in lesser armors.

I see someone who looks like either Ben Franklin or Hellboy's 'father' next to Rasputin.

Btw, does DC own hellboy? If so.......we got a ourselves a continuity gordian knot. shocklaugh I'm fairly sure Rasputin is just an in-joke, but I could be wrong.

Hellboys from Dark Horse.

In-joke then. Still, a rogue doctor who was attempting to summon an elder god entity. Would make for a good authority storyline. Though, I think they already killed one of those.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
In-joke then. Still, a rogue doctor who was attempting to summon an elder god entity. Would make for a good authority storyline. Though, I think they already killed one of those.

Uhhh...

The Authority killed God.

Joey's words are beginning to border on the obsessively bashing, so I'm going to remove myself from the conversation.

I read comics because I enjoy them, not to "wank" (I hate the term, btw) anyone who I may or may not like. I could respond to your points, but why bother? You'll just accuse me of more bias and spout bad Authority facts (I spotted 2 errors in the last post). When someone threatens y enjoyment of the characters, I simply get out. It doesn't matter to me what you think of them (or of me) but I enjoy debating these things, as most of us do. But when someone ruins it it's time to go.

See you in the tourney, Stacks. I hope we meet.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Joey's words are beginning to border on the obsessively bashing, so I'm going to remove myself from the conversation.

I read comics because I enjoy them, not to "wank" (I hate the term, btw) anyone who I may or may not like. I could respond to your points, but why bother? You'll just accuse me of more bias and spout bad Authority facts (I spotted 2 errors in the last post). When someone threatens y enjoyment of the characters, I simply get out. It doesn't matter to me what you think of them (or of me) but I enjoy debating these things, as most of us do. But when someone ruins it it's time to go.

See you in the tourney, Stacks. I hope we meet.



Props to Digi being the bigger man.

Especially when everyone that's read so far has watched Digi smear Stacks in 'debate.'

True dat.

Originally posted by Soljer
Props to Digi being the bigger man.

Especially when everyone that's read so far has watched Digi smear Stacks in 'debate.'

??

If I took his words out of context at some point as he's claimed once or twice, my apologies, but it wasn't intended and I never resorting to bashing. I've said he underrates the Authority, which I still believe, but don't believe I did anything reprehensible. The debate was obviously heated, on my side as well, but when it threatened to boil over into more, I stopped.

I'd appreciate confronting me directly about it if you have a problem, and we can discuss it, not announcing it in vague terms to everyone in order to stir up more animosity.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
). When someone threatens y enjoyment of the characters, I simply get out.



Yeah, your constant overration of Authority threatens my enjoyment of the characters. It's so annoying to see someone say Apollo can beat someone obviously out of his range like Namor just like it's annoying to see people say Hulk would beat Thanos or Superman would beat Sentry or some such.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
??

If I took his words out of context at some point as he's claimed once or twice, my apologies, but it wasn't intended and I never resorting to bashing. I've said he underrates the Authority, which I still believe, but don't believe I did anything reprehensible. The debate was obviously heated, on my side as well, but when it threatened to boil over into more, I stopped.

I'd appreciate confronting me directly about it if you have a problem, and we can discuss it, not announcing it in vague terms to everyone in order to stir up more animosity.


Who's announcing it? Why are you so soft and take everything so seriously/personal? If you're getting mad over this debate that's you, I'm having a good time.

Originally posted by Papa Smurph
Yeah, your constant overration of Authority threatens my enjoyment of the characters. It's so annoying to see someone say Apollo can beat someone obviously out of his range like Namor just like it's annoying to see people say Hulk would beat Thanos or Superman would beat Sentry or some such.

It has nothing to do with opinions, which everyone is entitled to. It's how you present yourself and those opinions and debates. The fact that I disagree with you about the Authority isn't the issue. It's how it becomes a personal battle of who is right or wrong that turns me off.

And I'm not getting mad, I'm avoiding a potentially negative situation. If I got mad over this stuff, I'd neither be a mod nor a regular on KMC.

You mistake being "soft" for being respectful, which is what I'm trying to be. Return in kind and you'll receive both my and others' additional respect and thanks.

Originally posted by Papa Smurph
Yeah, your constant overration of Authority threatens my enjoyment of the characters. It's so annoying to see someone say Apollo can beat someone obviously out of his range like Namor just like it's annoying to see people say Hulk would beat Thanos or Superman would beat Sentry or some such. Namor..Apollo...

Superman and Sentry.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
??

If I took his words out of context at some point as he's claimed once or twice, my apologies, but it wasn't intended and I never resorting to bashing. I've said he underrates the Authority, which I still believe, but don't believe I did anything reprehensible. The debate was obviously heated, on my side as well, but when it threatened to boil over into more, I stopped.

I'd appreciate confronting me directly about it if you have a problem, and we can discuss it, not announcing it in vague terms to everyone in order to stir up more animosity.

Uhhh....

Digi, you seriously misinterpretted what I was saying.

"Watching Digi smear Stacks in 'debate.'" meant that you were very clearly winning the argument between yourself and Joey.

Not that you were bashing.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
It has nothing to do with opinions, which everyone is entitled to. It's how you present yourself and those opinions and debates. The fact that I disagree with you about the Authority isn't the issue. It's how it becomes a personal battle of who is right or wrong that turns me off.

That's how most debates are, one person says something, another person says something hilariously bad about said persons statement, I point it out. If people take themselves so seriously that a few words said over an internet debate is considered disrespect then that speaks more about them then it does to the other party.

If me telling someone they're wrong or are a fanboy or are wanking a fictional character is disrespectful, then that person is soft and I wonder how dull there conversation are when they get into debates with their friends in real life are.

Originally posted by Soljer


"Watching Digi smear Stacks in 'debate.'" meant that you were very clearly winning the argument between yourself and Joey.



I think he understood

but

Coming from you

I don't think Digi appreciated the comment.

Originally posted by Soljer
Uhhh....

Digi, you seriously misinterpretted what I was saying.

"Watching Digi smear Stacks in 'debate.'" meant that you were very clearly winning the argument between yourself and Joey.

Not that you were bashing.

Ah. No worries then.



And Joey, it's clear you aren't getting the point, but please do try to be more respectful. I'm barely around the vs. forum anymore, so it's not really for my sake but for others. There's less "forward" ways of debating where you can still point out flaws without having to belittle the other person. Because eventually it'll go too far with someone and you and I will be talking again, but for very different reasons. I'd rather not see that happen.

Originally posted by Soljer
I can see where your logic comes from, but it's inherently flawed. The 'generational' nature of Doctors points towards an additive process, rather than a multiplicative one.
Yeah, but each Doctor has the power of all his ancestors. Therefore, adding one more Doctor is the same as adding all the Doctors before him, therefore doubling it.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Yeah, but each Doctor has the power of all his ancestors. Therefore, adding one more Doctor is the same as adding all the Doctors before him, therefore doubling it.

No, because there's overlap. If you have Jesus and Jeroen, then he dies and Habib inherits their memories, he inherits Jeroen and Jesus, not Jeroen/Jesus/Jesus. Besides, the quotes refer to memories and experience, not a power increase. They increase in power because their knowledge increases, not because of your mutiplicative theory.

It's not without merit, I just don't think there's enough to justify it as plausible. And if there were, I'd be all over it.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
No, because there's overlap. If you have Jesus and Jeroen, then he dies and Habib inherits their memories, he inherits Jeroen and Jesus, not Jeroen/Jesus/Jesus.
Okay, i'm going to try and make this really simple, i'll just do some math. Let's say there's been three Doctors, and the first one has a power value of "1".

1.

The Second Doctor has the powers of all previous Doctors, so he also has "1".

Then when the third Doctor comes along, he gets the powers of both of the previous Doctors, giving him a power of 2.

Then the fourth Doctor comes along, and he gets the powers of all previous Doctors. 1+1+2=4, so he has a power of 4, double what the previous Doctor had. So on and so on.


Originally posted by DigiMark007
Besides, the quotes refer to memories and experience, not a power increase. They increase in power because their knowledge increases, not because of your mutiplicative theory.

It's not without merit, I just don't think there's enough to justify it as plausible. And if there were, I'd be all over it.
Okay, THIS I understand... I thought it was stated somewhere that they actually had increased powers, not just better use of them.

I understand your math, but we're going to have to remain in disagreement. In your scenario, let's say Jesus was your "1" ..."3" would get Jesus' power twice. Again, it makes more sense that it's additive, not multiplicative. So if there's been 20 Doctors, he'd be 20x the first one.

But it's cool if you disagree. It's a semantic point anyway. Additive or multiplicative, he's still just a beast. I just don't think there's enough corroborating evidence from the comics to support it.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I understand your math, but we're going to have to remain in disagreement. In your scenario, let's say Jesus was your "1" ..."3" would get Jesus' power twice.
Yeah, but what does Four get? Can't be a three, that would mean he didn't get all of his predecessors powers.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Again, it makes more sense that it's additive, not multiplicative. So if there's been 20 Doctors, he'd be 20x the first one.
So even if your predecessor was a 19, you'd only get one? So in other words, you do NOT get your predecessor's powers?

And "not displaying powers outside urban environments"- his powers are augumented physical stats+urbanopathy (control over cities). Without urbanopathy he's left with...well,augumented physical stats aka H2H. In any non-urban\pseudourban(Carrier) setting H2H is the only thing he has.
That couple of scans just shows that those augumented stats don't instantly fade when he's taken out of city.

Seriously, go read respect thread for a buddy. And BTW, one of Coruscant options for Jack- has city lessen gravity on Hulk (he has done that before on huge alien space station, BTW, so he can control some "weird" not Earth cities like urban environments), then draw power from the city to augument his stats (again, has done that before against Regis, and given that the bigger the city is, the more powerful Jack becomes, the powerup would be pretty nice) and just PWN huc via BFR. Simple solution of green nonsence.

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
And "not displaying powers outside urban environments"- his powers are augumented physical stats+urbanopathy (control over cities). Without urbanopathy he's left with...well,augumented physical stats aka H2H. In any non-urban\pseudourban(Carrier) setting H2H is the only thing he has.
That couple of scans just shows that those augumented stats don't instantly fade when he's taken out of city.

Seriously, go read respect thread for a buddy. And BTW, one of Coruscant options for Jack- has city lessen gravity on Hulk (he has done that before on huge alien space station, BTW, so he can control some "weird" not Earth cities like urban environments), then draw power from the city to augument his stats (again, has done that before against Regis, and given that the bigger the city is, the more powerful Jack becomes, the powerup would be pretty nice) and just PWN huc via BFR. Simple solution of green nonsence. When I first saw you read you say your the master or whatever with Jack I had my doubts but you proved you are the girl to go to in this thread.

Have just thought...lessening gravity on Hulk can probably leave him without leverage, so ridiculous "continent drowing step" becomes quite hard to perform...an opposite to sucking Hulk into concrete (and given stats of some things\creatures he has buried into concrete, just punching out of it is quite hard thing to perform even for uberhuc).

Lessening the gravity feat
http://img440.imageshack.us/my.php?image=authorityv200402rougherik1.jpg
http://img263.imageshack.us/my.php?image=authorityv200403roughermv2.jpg
http://img490.imageshack.us/my.php?image=authorityv200409rougherdv0.jpg

He can also do that on himself, and in NYsized city it almost grants him flight.
http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=19mt3.jpg

http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=11rh2.jpg

Originally posted by Yowsa
When I first saw you read you say your the master or whatever with Jack I had my doubts but you proved you are the girl to go to in this thread.

To say it in the modest way...Jack is one of the characters I know really well here. And one of those I enjoy debating for... I don't enjoy debating for the sake of debating, so I post relatively rarely here.

I don't enjoy debating unless if its with one of my favorites which are characters not that well known unfortently.

Authority kick ass. The Authority thread is good and Apollos is pretty good to.

There would be some additions to it soon (mostly Engineer-focused, but some Jack stuff as well).

So what you're saying is

the only way Hawksmoore beats Hulk on Coruscant is via BFR and not because he's actually more powerful then him.

Good stuff

If the city was empty and he knew how dangerous Hulk is he would use the city as amour and destroy him, not using BFR. Really dude get a clue.

Or bury him into concrete. Or just blow him the f*ck up- small "renovation"....or not that small in Coruscant case.
http://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=authority02008qi4.jpg

Given the future tech on Coruscant, Jack will have much more than "pathetic gaspipes" to pwn Huc.

no city could "destroy" Hulk, all that would happen is that you'd have one busted up city and one pissed off Worldbreaker.

Hulk literally jumped from one of Saraak's moons to the planet, enduring reentry and landing without the slightest problem, he's easily - without even the least bit of trouble - taken city destroying nukes on Sakaar... and this while he was actually weaker than usual and didn't have the healing on uber-fast.

essentially there's no way that Hawkesmoore can take down Hulk. just impossible.

Originally posted by janus77
no city could "destroy" Hulk, all that would happen is that you'd have one busted up city and one pissed off Worldbreaker.

Hulk literally jumped from one of Saraak's moons to the planet, enduring reentry and landing without the slightest problem, he's easily - without even the least bit of trouble - taken city destroying nukes on Sakaar... and this while he was actually weaker than usual and didn't have the healing on uber-fast.

essentially there's no way that Hawkesmoore can take down Hulk. just impossible. If this was WWH you might have a point but regular gets taken down.

Jack bursts through the huc.

'grok you're typing again, stop it. makes you look like a fool. more so than you are anyway. well I hope.


Originally posted by Yowsa
If this was WWH you might have a point but regular gets taken down.
and if that was WWH I wouldn't need to state this for you but, it wasn't WWH it was regular Planet Hulk. Hulk before he lost the wife and child and saw the world half destroyed (whilst HE SURVIVED!).


frankly there's no sane argument you can make against what I've said.

Blowing up a gasline is going to take out the Hulk? Concrete will stop the Hulk? stop you're killing me over here.


Given the futuristic tech on Coruscant it's only going to cause Hawksmoore more pain when Hulk trashes it and causes greater explosions which we know he can tank and regen from pretty quickly given his current level. Maybe the weak jobbers that Hawksmoore usually kills would be scared of a gas main blowing up in their face, but this is the big boys now.

But what's really funny about this whole thing, though, is that you know Hawksmoore can't beat Hulk even on Coruscant, thus he must BFR him and Hulk must now be reduced to standing still and knocked out by gas pipe level explosions (though I reckon Hulk could use a big bang level thunderclap to propel him into the ground and level Coruscant like he did the asteroid which was twice the size of the Earth, since one time showings are all the rage nowadays) and getting swallowed by....concrete.

Originally posted by janus77
no city could "destroy" Hulk, all that would happen is that you'd have one busted up city and one pissed off Worldbreaker.

Hulk literally jumped from one of Saraak's moons to the planet, enduring reentry and landing without the slightest problem, he's easily - without even the least bit of trouble - taken city destroying nukes on Sakaar... and this while he was actually weaker than usual and didn't have the healing on uber-fast.

essentially there's no way that Hawkesmoore can take down Hulk. just impossible.

Exactly, all this Hawksmoore beat Hulk foolishness comes from the fan jerking the Authority receives on this board.

Yes yes yes, they do look rather stylish killing those jobbers, but nothing shows that (barring the reality manipulators on their teams) they're anything above mid-tier really.

What's funny is that these Hulk apparently loses to scrubs like the Authority started off as Hulk vs. Authority sans reality manipulators, then when people realised how one sided it was it became Hulk vs. Authority on Coruscant.

Originally posted by llagrok
Jack bursts through the huc.

Hulk ripped an embedded Spike from his chest. It hardly phased him

Originally posted by Papa Smurph
Exactly, all this Hawksmoore beat Hulk foolishness comes from the fan jerking the Authority receives on this board.

Yes yes yes, they do look rather stylish killing those jobbers, but nothing shows that (barring the reality manipulators on their teams) they're anything above mid-tier really.

What's funny is that these Hulk apparently loses to scrubs like the Authority started off as Hulk vs. Authority sans reality manipulators, then when people realised how one sided it was it became Hulk vs. Authority on Coruscant. Authority could trash Hulk.

Janus seems to speak more sense than you so try letting him debate, he doesn't seem to hate Authority or underrate them as much as you do.

Hulk has been taken down by allot less than what Jack could do. Thats a fact.

Originally posted by Yowsa
Authority could trash Hulk.

Janus seems to speak more sense than you so try letting him debate, he doesn't seem to hate Authority or underrate them as much as you do.

Hulk has been taken down by allot less than what Jack could do. Thats a fact.

He's also frequently taken more punishment than Jack dishes out when he fights in character.

In character Jack uses the city, because theres no one in danger here and he knows what is needed to beat Hulk.

In character Jack will do what needed and he has and will sue whats needed.

but the City is not going to be enough, not even close.
you have a character who can survive a black hole better than The Silver Surfer. who can go toe-to-toe with Onslaught without tapping out or passing out. who can take +world destroying+ explosions without so much as an 'ouch', what possible - however remote and tenuous - hope is there for Hawkesmoore?

you really have to check out some Hulk stories, I think.

And you forgot smash asteroids twice the size of Earth and deflect universe destroying energy attacks with thunderclaps.

Top showings.......

there's plenty of feats, but what's the point. if destroying a world doesn't do anything to Hulk, what's a city going to achieve?


I think people are getting influenced by the usual Hulk-bashing types here. taking it for granted that the character's "just a brick"... rather than reading the stories or even checking out the respect thread and assessing people's opinions on the character, for themselves.