Silver Surfer and Superman throw down like men...

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darthgoober
Who wins in a fight in space with no "cheap" tactics? That means no weakness exploitation for Surfer and no speed blitz or T-Vo for Supes.

Priest
Surfer imo.

horrorwolf
Lets see...

If we say that....

1. Surfer doesnt exploit Superman's weaknesses to K-nite....such as by duplicating it for weapons or bombarding Superman with RedSun...or changing his own body into K-nite.

2. Surfer doesnt screw with Superman's DNA or matter.

3. Surfer doesnt utilize cosmic energy to amp beyond Superman levels.

4. Surfer doesnt cheat by utilizing cosmic energy to sustain his endurance or heal any damage recieved.

5. Surfer doesnt utilize cosmic energy to boost his body armor/durability....

6. Surfer doesnt utilize his cosmic awareness to locate and use Lois as a human shield...

Then Id definitely say that Superman should take this for a majority of 7/10.

Master-Borg
Superman imo is the better fighter, he wins majority.

Priest
Originally posted by horrorwolf


3. Surfer doesnt utilize cosmic energy to amp beyond Superman levels.

4. Surfer doesnt cheat by utilizing cosmic energy to sustain his endurance or heal any damage recieved.

5. Surfer doesnt utilize cosmic energy to boost his body armor/durability....

Then Id definitely say that Superman should take this a minimum of 7/10.
Non of these are cheap tactics IMO.

darthgoober
Originally posted by horrorwolf
Lets see...

If we say that....

1. Surfer doesnt exploit Superman's weaknesses to K-nite....such as by duplicating it for weapons or bombarding Superman with RedSun...or changing his own body into K-nite.

2. Surfer doesnt screw with Superman's DNA or matter.

3. Surfer doesnt utilize cosmic energy to amp beyond Superman levels.

4. Surfer doesnt cheat by utilizing cosmic energy to sustain his endurance or heal any damage recieved.

5. Surfer doesnt utilize cosmic energy to boost his body armor/durability....

Then Id definitely say that Superman should take this for a majority of 7/10.
Surfer can still amp and stuff, he just can't use solar energy absorption, red sunlight, or k-nite...

horrorwolf
Originally posted by darthgoober
Surfer can still amp and stuff, he just can't use solar energy absorption, red sunlight, or k-nite...

Then..Surfer takes this.

darthgoober
On second thought, also remove the options of BFR and time manipulation....

Lumby
surfer loses hes got like no strength feats that put him on supermans level big grin

guy222
norrin

vlaaad12345
God im getting tired of this,surfer has never ever EVER amped himself to superman levels physically out of the blue stop acting like he can.

janus77
Surfer FTW.
Superman isn't strong enough to harm him.
Surfer can also amp himself indefinitely, enough to beat Superman.

h1a8
Warning! Dumb a$$ post above.

janus77
Originally posted by h1a8
Warning! Dumb a$$ post above.
thanks for the warning, I saw it and ignored it smile

Soljer
So, what IS the Surfer allowed to do?

If all he's allowed to do is blast and punch, I'd say the majority swings to Superman.

Bouboumaster
6/10 Surfer

Gecko4lif
Surfer loses horribly

the whole reason he can beat supes is his cheap ass versitility

darthgoober
Originally posted by Soljer
So, what IS the Surfer allowed to do?

If all he's allowed to do is blast and punch, I'd say the majority swings to Superman.
He can do anything other than manipulate Supes's solar energy, use K-nite or Red Sun radiation, time travel, or BFR. Pretty much anything else is fair game.

quanchi112
Surfer wins this.

Unnatural-POWER
IMO, by removing these exploitations from Surfers arsenal, you're also removing his ability to win.

Superman wins.

vlaaad12345
Originally posted by janus77
thanks for the warning, I saw it and ignored it smile
Yes lets ignore the truth,surfer cant amp his physical stats indefinitely hell he cant amp them to supes level,he never has,ever,supes dominates surfer in a hand to hand fight.

Unnatural-POWER
Originally posted by vlaaad12345
Yes lets ignore the truth,surfer cant amp his physical stats indefinitely hell he cant amp them to supes level,he never has,ever,supes dominates surfer in a hand to hand fight.

It's not that Surfer can't do this, he can, but people always forget when debating Surfer vs Superman, everything Surfer does, takes time, nothing is instantaneous.
So while Surfer is amping, Superman is sitting down with his feet up, 'allowing' this to go on? I don't think so.

Surfer isn't strong enough, cannot 'fight' fast enough, and isn't physically durable enough to throw down with Superman. With no time for amping of any kind, Surfer is in too deep.

Superman wins.

janus77
I have to say that each point you make is unequivocally false.
Surfer is far more than durable enough to take a barrage from Superman (that is if Superman is fast enough to even tag Surfer, which he patently is not). the only way you could possibly dispute this is if you believe that Superman is stronger than Teneberous, Aegis or UniLord. all of whom have physically assaulted Surfer with intent to kill and have failed to do so.

Surfer also is fast enough, and instantaneously so, to move at FTL speeds so as to keep dodging and not present a target (as he demonstrated to Deathurge). he can instantly absorb and transform any type of energy thrown at him (as he did when he took on several avengers) so there's more than enough reason to suppose that instead of pouring that energy away he could keep it and enhance his physical stats.

the simple truth is that Surfer, unlike Superman, has absolutely no need in the normal course of his comics, to resort to physically pounding on an enemy. he's just too damned versatile and has too many far more effective and efficient powers to do something so ... out of character as physically pummel someone.

that said, he did take on Hulk and the warbound on Sakaar, whilst depowered and lacking access to the Power Cosmic and handled them all pretty definitively (unless you wanna talk about the cheap shot). moreover Surfer has allowed a Banner-less Hulk to pound on him with no ill effect.


simply put, Superman's screwed for a way to take down Surfer, while Surfer's just gotta be pissed off enough to do what has to be done.

Mindset
Originally posted by Gecko4lif
Surfer loses horribly

the whole reason he can beat supes is his cheap ass versitility

How is versatility cheap, because he can beat a character you like?

Gecko4lif
Originally posted by Mindset
How is versatility cheap, because he can beat a character you like?
Watch your mouth boy


I dont like supes. The only version of him that is even in my top 50 is sbp

I just think surfer has a cheap powerset

much like firestorm

vlaaad12345
Originally posted by janus77
I have to say that each point you make is unequivocally false.
Surfer is far more than durable enough to take a barrage from Superman (that is if Superman is fast enough to even tag Surfer, which he patently is not). the only way you could possibly dispute this is if you believe that Superman is stronger than Teneberous, Aegis or UniLord. all of whom have physically assaulted Surfer with intent to kill and have failed to do so.

Surfer also is fast enough, and instantaneously so, to move at FTL speeds so as to keep dodging and not present a target (as he demonstrated to Deathurge). he can instantly absorb and transform any type of energy thrown at him (as he did when he took on several avengers) so there's more than enough reason to suppose that instead of pouring that energy away he could keep it and enhance his physical stats.

the simple truth is that Surfer, unlike Superman, has absolutely no need in the normal course of his comics, to resort to physically pounding on an enemy. he's just too damned versatile and has too many far more effective and efficient powers to do something so ... out of character as physically pummel someone.

that said, he did take on Hulk and the warbound on Sakaar, whilst depowered and lacking access to the Power Cosmic and handled them all pretty definitively (unless you wanna talk about the cheap shot). moreover Surfer has allowed a Banner-less Hulk to pound on him with no ill effect.


simply put, Superman's screwed for a way to take down Surfer, while Surfer's just gotta be pissed off enough to do what has to be done.
Lawl this is almost funny,surfer has got his shit stomped on nearly every occasion that hes run up against decent bricks,aegis tenebrous or even galactus dont have physical feats nor showed themselves physical powerhouses so try again,and again surfer has lost time and time again to people much weaker and slower and less durable then superman in physical combat,hes completelly outmatched in every category,he cant magically amp himself outta nowhere to match supes cause again hes never ****ing done it,and comparing the warbound and planet hulk to superman is just laughable,superman shit stomps surfer it would be a pathetic beatdown.

janus77
Originally posted by vlaaad12345
Lawl this is almost funny,surfer has got his shit stomped on nearly every occasion that hes run up against decent bricks,aegis tenebrous or even galactus dont have physical feats nor showed themselves physical powerhouses so try again,and again surfer has lost time and time again to people much weaker and slower and less durable then superman in physical combat,hes completelly outmatched in every category,he cant magically amp himself outta nowhere to match supes cause again hes never ****ing done it,and comparing the warbound and planet hulk to superman is just laughable,superman shit stomps surfer it would be a pathetic beatdown.
I just wanted to quote this so that I'd remember why I put you on ignore smile.

bye smile

darthgoober
Originally posted by vlaaad12345
Lawl this is almost funny,surfer has got his shit stomped on nearly every occasion that hes run up against decent bricks,aegis tenebrous or even galactus dont have physical feats nor showed themselves physical powerhouses so try again,and again surfer has lost time and time again to people much weaker and slower and less durable then superman in physical combat,hes completelly outmatched in every category,he cant magically amp himself outta nowhere to match supes cause again hes never ****ing done it,and comparing the warbound and planet hulk to superman is just laughable,superman shit stomps surfer it would be a pathetic beatdown.
I'm interested to hearing about all these instances of Surfer getting his ass kicked by "brick" characters that you're talking about...

janus77
Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm interested to hearing about all these instances of Surfer getting his ass kicked by "brick" characters that you're talking about...
well given that he thinks Teneberous, Aegis and even Galactus aren't "physical powerhouses", I'm betting he's talking about the LT... though can't recall LT facing off against Surfer but, you never know.

tkitna
Surfer wins

Mindship
If we go by what Surfer can do (ie, amping his strength, speed and durability), then even though Superman is the more experienced brawler, it would be tough for him to put down an opponent who can "out-Super" him.

On the other hand, Superman is the superior brawler, plus (love it or hate it) he does have that (writer-generated?) tendency to "automatically" amp when the going gets really, really, really tough (and an amped Surfer would certainly qualify).

Since I see Surfer definitely beating Superman w/o power restrictions, I am inclined to give the toe-to-toe win to Superman because brawling is what Supes does (he is--arguably--the best at it).

Superman ftw 6/10.

Unnatural-POWER
Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
IMO, by removing these exploitations from Surfers arsenal, you're also removing his ability to win.

Superman wins.

Unnatural-POWER
Originally posted by Mindship
If we go by what Surfer can do (ie, amping his strength, speed and durability), then even though Superman is the more experienced brawler, it would be tough for him to put down an opponent who can "out-Super" him.

On the other hand, Superman is the superior brawler, plus (love it or hate it) he does have that (writer-generated?) tendency to "automatically" amp when the going gets really, really, really tough (and an amped Surfer would certainly qualify).

Since I see Surfer definitely beating Superman w/o power restrictions, I am inclined to give the toe-to-toe win to Superman because brawling is what Supes does (he is--arguably--the best at it).

Superman ftw 6/10.

This is a good post.

I have one question, though, can Surfer amp himself to Superman level attributes, at the same time as being attacked/ punched?

Mindship
Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
This is a good post. Merci.

I have one question, though, can Surfer amp himself to Superman level attributes, at the same time as being attacked/ punched? Good question. Surfer does have "insane durability" (gosh I like that term), so I imagine that Superman would get in a few good blows, rocking Surfer but not putting him down, not before Surfer could amp-up and send a few back. But that could well be too late a countermove for a victory.

Kid Kurdy
Originally posted by janus77
that is if Superman is fast enough to even tag Surfer, which he patently is not
You don't have to be extremely fast to "even tag Surfer".

Ask Thanos. Or Spider-Man. Or Hulk. Or... well you get the idea.

janus77
Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
You don't have to be extremely fast to "even tag Surfer".

Ask Thanos. Or Spider-Man. Or Hulk. Or... well you get the idea.
and you don't have to be as strong or as fast as Surfer to pawn Superman. just own a gas station smile.


Hulk's tagged speedsters of the cosmic order before, Jack of Hearts even comments on Hulk's phenomenal reactions. it's just another example of his innate strength.

and Thanos? Thanos is hard to peg but I'd say he's pretty fast given the types of characters he regularly pawns. only character ever to blitz him, as far as I'm aware, was The Runner (and he did that to Surfer too).

Thorion
Surfer does not possess male genitalia. Therefore, he is not a man. Therefore he can not "throw down like a man" and since the TS did not state Silver Surfer and Superman throw down like a man and a genderless queer, Superman wins by default.

Unnatural-POWER
Originally posted by Thorion
Surfer does not possess male genitalia. Therefore, he is not a man. Therefore he can not "throw down like a man" and since the TS did not state Silver Surfer and Superman throw down like a man and a genderless queer, Superman wins by default. laughing

llagrok
Originally posted by Thorion
Surfer does not possess male genitalia. Therefore, he is not a man. Therefore he can not "throw down like a man" and since the TS did not state Silver Surfer and Superman throw down like a man and a genderless queer, Superman wins by default.

Game, set, match.

Superboy Prime
Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
IMO, by removing these exploitations from Surfers arsenal, you're also removing his ability to win.

Superman wins.

Agreed.

True that Surfer can amp, but you need to take into consideration that while he is doing this Superman will be assaulting him, and I respect the Surfer but if you're going to fight Supes you better bring your A+ game.

Surfer's inability to exploit Superman's unreliable weaknesses is not his A+ game.

darthgoober
Why is everyone questioning whether or not Surfer's going to have time to amp? Of course he is, that's why I removed the option of a speedblitz...

Superboy Prime
Originally posted by darthgoober
Why is everyone questioning whether or not Surfer's going to have time to amp? Of course he is, that's why I removed the option of a speedblitz...

Aye.

IMO Supes is a much better fighter. So I suppose it all depends if Surfer's amp will be equal to Supes' physical stats or surpass them. If he just equals them I say he loses. If he surpasses them then Surfer wins after a hard fight.

To be honest I really don't know. I have it implanted in my brain that a fight between these 2 relies heavily on speedblitzin' and exploting weaknesses, so I feel lost and confused. *Cries in a corner*

Erik-Lensherr
Is there a sunlight where they fight ?

Raoul
Originally posted by darthgoober
Who wins in a fight in space with no "cheap" tactics? That means no weakness exploitation for Surfer and no speed blitz or T-Vo for Supes.

Superman.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Superboy Prime
To be honest I really don't know. I have it implanted in my brain that a fight between these 2 relies heavily on speedblitzin' and exploting weaknesses, so I feel lost and confused. *Cries in a corner*
I understand completely. The whole reason I felt the need to make a new thread was so there could be a discussion that DIDN'T center on weakness exploitation vs blitz...

darthgoober
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Is there a sunlight where they fight ?
Of course(wouldn't be fair otherwise)...

Combat_Guru
I am under the opinion that Silver Surfer, and Superman are at the same level, having their strengths and weaknesses.

Erik-Lensherr
Originally posted by darthgoober
Of course(wouldn't be fair otherwise)...

Cool.

Then tehnically, Superman will be amped through the fight also. It's stated that the more stress he is put under, the more energy he retains from the sun.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_StressPower.jpg

And considering I've never seen Silver Surfer amp himself beyond what Superman is capable of physically .. I give it to Superman.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Cool.

Then tehnically, Superman will be amped through the fight also. It's stated that the more stress he is put under, the more energy he retains from the sun.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_StressPower.jpg

And considering I've never seen Silver Surfer amp himself beyond what Superman is capable of physically .. I give it to Superman.
You do realize that this still isn't a purely physical fight right? Surfer doesn't HAVE to trade blows...

Unnatural-POWER
Originally posted by darthgoober
You do realize that this still isn't a purely physical fight right? Surfer doesn't HAVE to trade blows...

I feel that most of the time, he won't have a choice. Superman will be all over him like a bad rash, forcing him to trade blows.

TricksterPriest
He won't have a choice. It will come down to fisticuffs at some point, and then he's screwed. He can't beat Superman in a fistfight.

Edit: STOP COPYING ME! durfist

Unnatural-POWER
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He won't have a choice. It will come down to fisticuffs at some point, and then he's screwed. He can't beat Superman in a fistfight.

Edit: STOP COPYING ME! durfist

This is my train of thought exactly, you can read my mind? no expression

lol you copied me big grin

janus77
Surfer will KO him yes.


anyway, Surfer won't have a problem with Superman's attacks. they'll sting but nothing too much that he can't reply in kind.

also, he could of course just make superman look a fool and go intangible, phase in and out... phase his fist inside Superman's head and rip out the brain .... that's "throwing down" big grin

darthgoober
Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
I feel that most of the time, he won't have a choice. Superman will be all over him like a bad rash, forcing him to trade blows.
And what stops Surfer from putting some distance between them with an eyeblast and keeping it there with a Force Field?

Unnatural-POWER
Originally posted by darthgoober
And what stops Surfer from putting some distance between them with an eyeblast and keeping it there with a Force Field?

I only said most of the time.

IMO its easier to think about the fight if its not close range, but as soon as it becomes close range, then unless you're stronger than your opponent (Surfer isn't) to be able to throw them away, then you fight back with your fists.

But again, there is nothing stopping Surfer from blasting Superman away, but unless he blasts all day while flying backwards at near light speed, Superman will keep on coming.

Don't forget Superman fights with his fists, so that's how he will fight, whatever Surfer does, he's always going to have Superman either in his face/ trying to get in his face.
And like Trickster said, Surfer isn't beating Superman in a fist fight.

janus77
again, Superman has to catch Surfer, Surfer's instantaneous speeds are far in-excess of anything Superman could do (Superman is slower than Flash no?).

also, Surfer can take shots from Teneberous and Aegis, shots that break moons. Surfer has taken physical attacks from UniLord that have totally atomised his body, only to reform +instantaneously+ and carry on without being injured.

basically, you still need to prove that Superman could injure Surfer sufficiently.

Unnatural-POWER
Originally posted by janus77
again, Superman has to catch Surfer, Surfer's instantaneous speeds are far in-excess of anything Superman could do (Superman is slower than Flash no?).

also, Surfer can take shots from Teneberous and Aegis, shots that break moons. Surfer has taken physical attacks from UniLord that have totally atomised his body, only to reform +instantaneously+ and carry on without being injured.

basically, you still need to prove that Superman could injure Surfer sufficiently.

Surfers amazing speed is pretty much only travelling speed, not battle speed. How many separate feats does he have where he's shown battle speed?

Am i so wrong in saying that Surfer's durability is about the same as Supermans? Superman has some durability feats that are absolutely insane.

IMHO, if Surfer can take shots from T & A, then so can Superman.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
Surfers amazing speed is pretty much only travelling speed, not battle speed. How many separate feats does he have where he's shown battle speed?

Am i so wrong in saying that Surfer's durability is about the same as Supermans? Superman has some durability feats that are absolutely insane.

IMHO, if Surfer can take shots from T & A, then so can Superman.
It's interesting that you compare Supes's durability with Surfer's. Let me ask you this, has Supes ever weathered a severe beating for an extended period from someone on par with him in the strength department?

Unnatural-POWER
What do you mean by weathered good buddy? Fought with for an extended time?

darthgoober
Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
What do you mean by weathered good buddy? Fought with for an extended time?
Yeah.

janus77
but you are applying double-standards in your reasoning there.
if you demand scans to accept the simple conclusion that Surfer's speed (which is instantaneous) is applicable in battles too, then you should provide scans for your hypothesis that Superman has Surfer level durability.

I mean, off the top of my head, I can tell you that Surfer must be more durable to be able to negate the affects of ALL cosmic radiation upon his person, which Superman cannot do, he cannot endure Kryptonite nor Red Sun radiation... that is a durability issue is it not?

also Surfer's durability is far more than sufficient to cope with anything Superman has to offer in terms of offense. consider the kind of punishment Surfer has taken from beings far and away more powerful than Superman. Galactus has blasted Surfer, T&A have gone to work on him big time and of course there's UniLord a dimensional God who couldn't kill him.

I don't see how you can possibly argue that Superman's fists now somehow create enough force to do what T&A could not no expression.

Unnatural-POWER
Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah.

I Suppose Doomsday would be the classic answer to that, or did you mean longer?

Superboy Prime
Doomsday?

janus77
Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
I Suppose Doomsday would be the classic answer to that, or did you mean longer?
Surfer took a prologued barrage from Banner-less Hulk, which more than equals that feat.

Superboy Prime
Banner-less Hulk > Doomsday? confused

Unnatural-POWER
Originally posted by janus77
but you are applying double-standards in your reasoning there.
if you demand scans to accept the simple conclusion that Surfer's speed (which is instantaneous) is applicable in battles too, then you should provide scans for your hypothesis that Superman has Surfer level durability.

I mean, off the top of my head, I can tell you that Surfer must be more durable to be able to negate the affects of ALL cosmic radiation upon his person, which Superman cannot do, he cannot endure Kryptonite nor Red Sun radiation... that is a durability issue is it not?

also Surfer's durability is far more than sufficient to cope with anything Superman has to offer in terms of offense. consider the kind of punishment Surfer has taken from beings far and away more powerful than Superman. Galactus has blasted Surfer, T&A have gone to work on him big time and of course there's UniLord a dimensional God who couldn't kill him.

I don't see how you can possibly argue that Superman's fists now somehow create enough force to do what T&A could not no expression.

These are good points, however, Thanos knocked out Surfer in 4-5 punches, and i consider Superman stronger than a casual Thanos.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
I Suppose Doomsday would be the classic answer to that, or did you mean longer?
DD's just fine as an example.

So let me ask you this, if Superman can take shots for an extended period from someone who's strength is on par with(or even exceeds) his own and you consider Surfer and Supes to be peers in the durability department, wouldn't that mean that Surfer can also withstand an extended beating from someone who's strength is on par with(or even exceeds) Supes?

janus77
Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
These are good points, however, Thanos knocked out Surfer in 4-5 punches, and i consider Superman stronger than a casual Thanos.
that's yet to be proved, and indeed there's nothing to measure this supposition by.

but more important is the realisation that Surfer has been substantially upgraded since those fights. for instance the upgrade he got when he took in a piece of DeathUrge, or when he consumed the "blackbodies" that UniLord was feeding on or, most recently of all, the upgrade that Galactus explicitly states he gave Surfer during annihilation.

Unnatural-POWER
Originally posted by darthgoober
DD's just fine as an example.

So let me ask you this, if Superman can take shots for an extended period from someone who's strength is on par with(or even exceeds) his own and you consider Surfer and Supes to be peers in the durability department, wouldn't that suggest that Surfer can also withstand an extended beating from someone who's strength is on par with(or even exceeds) Supes?

Lol i see what you did there smile

Then it would come down to the better fighter, and physically stronger, and more skilled, which would be Superman.

I'm not sure about this though, as i said earlier somewhere, but can Surfer amp WHILE being attacked/ punched?
Because if not, then he will have to fight with his normal strength, while great, IMO isn't enough.

If Surfer can amp, and heal himself WHILE taking a beating from the temporarily stronger and more skilled fighter, then eventaully he would surpass Superman, if he's not knocked out, but if he can't perform these feats while being attacked, then Surfers in trouble.

I'm trying not to forget Surfers other powers here, so feel free to remind me at any time, it's just i feel that Surfer will be forced into a fist fight more often than not.

Unnatural-POWER
I'm getting double teamed here sad

Superboy Prime
Goober stated Surfer gets the time to amp himself to Superman level if I am not mistaken.

Unnatural-POWER
Originally posted by Superboy Prime
Goober stated Surfer gets the time to amp himself to Superman level if I am not mistaken.

If you're referring to his second post in this thread, the way i understood it was that Surfer could amp DURING the fight, not before it.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Superboy Prime
Goober stated Surfer gets the time to amp himself to Superman level if I am not mistaken.
No he doesn't start off amped to Supes's level of strength, he's just allowed to amp. Starting him out at Supes's strength level would be utter spite because then it would just be Supes vs Supes+.

Unnatural-POWER
Originally posted by darthgoober
No he doesn't start off amped to Supes's level of strength, he's just allowed to amp. Starting him out at Supes's strength level would be utter spite because then it would just be Supes vs Supes+.

Superman vs Superman w/ Surfers powerset probably wouldn't be fair lol.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
Lol i see what you did there smile

Then it would come down to the better fighter, and physically stronger, and more skilled, which would be Superman.

I'm not sure about this though, as i said earlier somewhere, but can Surfer amp WHILE being attacked/ punched?
Because if not, then he will have to fight with his normal strength, while great, IMO isn't enough.

If Surfer can amp, and heal himself WHILE taking a beating from the temporarily stronger and more skilled fighter, then eventaully he would surpass Superman, if he's not knocked out, but if he can't perform these feats while being attacked, then Surfers in trouble.

I'm trying not to forget Surfers other powers here, so feel free to remind me at any time, it's just i feel that Surfer will be forced into a fist fight more often than not.
It's almost never even made clear when Surfer's actually amping, it's just demonstrated in his ability to go h2h with guys stronger than him.

And don't think I'm trying to say that Surfer stomps Supes in this fight, because I'm not. The main reason I made it was to show that Surfer and Supes are peers even if Surfer DOESN'T exploit Supes's weaknesses because all too often Supes's fans try to say that without that option Surfer's screwed. If the two fight "in character" under the thread conditions, I actually say they split it 5/10.

Galan007
Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
IMO, by removing these exploitations from Surfers arsenal, you're also removing his ability to win.

Superman wins. I agree.

Unnatural-POWER
Originally posted by darthgoober
It's almost never even made clear when Surfer's actually amping, it's just demonstrated in his ability to go h2h with guys stronger than him.

And don't think I'm trying to say that Surfer stomps Supes in this fight, because I'm not. The main reason I made it was to show that Surfer and Supes are peers even if Surfer DOESN'T exploit Supes's weaknesses because all too often Supes's fans try to say that without that option Surfer's screwed. If the two fight "in character" under the thread conditions, I actually say they split it 5/10.

If i was an unreasonable person i would say that in that case Surfer doesn't have the ability to amp because there have not been any occasions of him doing so, but i'm aware of his power set and self amping fits into it somewhat so i'll give you the benefit of the doubt with that one.

I'd give Supes and Surfer a 5/10 split when there are no stipulations, because i believe they both possess the tools to beat each other. And i think i said this in the other post, Surfers power set seems more Anti-Superman, then Supermans does Anti-Surfer.
But with that said, i've always thought that if the fight is up close and personal, then Superman will have the advantage in strength, skill, speed (battle speed) and the ability to take a punch from someone as strong/ stronger than himself (Surfer does too, but Superman i feel moreso due to his fighting nature).
So in close quarters fighting, i feel that Superman will win more often that not.
Without the ability to exploit Supermans weaknesses, and even if he could, he would have to drain him extremely quickly with great potency, i feel the fight swinging in Supermans direction more then Surfers.

With Surfer amping 5/10 split

Without Surfer amping 7/10 Superman.

My main reason for this is because i feel the fight will be taken to Surfer hard and fast, and Superman has the advantage in every CLOSE RANGE FIGHTING category.

I think this is reasonably fair.

Superboy Prime
Originally posted by darthgoober
It's almost never even made clear when Surfer's actually amping, it's just demonstrated in his ability to go h2h with guys stronger than him.

And don't think I'm trying to say that Surfer stomps Supes in this fight, because I'm not. The main reason I made it was to show that Surfer and Supes are peers even if Surfer DOESN'T exploit Supes's weaknesses because all too often Supes's fans try to say that without that option Surfer's screwed. If the two fight "in character" under the thread conditions, I actually say they split it 5/10.

if you ask me; in character they wouldn't even fight. Supes is a boy scout that always holds back and usually takes a few punches until he finally decides to fight back. Surfer is a pacifist, but this may have changed after he became Big G's herald again--please clear this for me.

llagrok
Superman.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
If i was an unreasonable person i would say that in that case Surfer doesn't have the ability to amp because there have not been any occasions of him doing so, but i'm aware of his power set and self amping fits into it somewhat so i'll give you the benefit of the doubt with that one.

Oh it's been concretely established on panel to be one of his abilities, it's just not something that gets mentioned all that often...
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/7291/ffv15511ampingjv0.jpg
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/3043/ffv15512amping2qv5.jpg

And if you're wondering why Surfer's base strength was less than Thing's in that instance, it's from his period of being depowered on Earth.

Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
I'd give Supes and Surfer a 5/10 split when there are no stipulations, because i believe they both possess the tools to beat each other. And i think i said this in the other post, Surfers power set seems more Anti-Superman, then Supermans does Anti-Surfer.
But with that said, i've always thought that if the fight is up close and personal, then Superman will have the advantage in strength, skill, speed (battle speed) and the ability to take a punch from someone as strong/ stronger than himself (Surfer does too, but Superman i feel moreso due to his fighting nature).
So in close quarters fighting, i feel that Superman will win more often that not.
Without the ability to exploit Supermans weaknesses, and even if he could, he would have to drain him extremely quickly with great potency, i feel the fight swinging in Supermans direction more then Surfers.

With Surfer amping 5/10 split

Without Surfer amping 7/10 Superman.

My main reason for this is because i feel the fight will be taken to Surfer hard and fast, and Superman has the advantage in every CLOSE RANGE FIGHTING category.

I think this is reasonably fair.
For the most part I agree with you. I disagree in that I think Surfer takes a clear majority in fight with NO stipulations, but I can agree that they split this particular fight 5/10 each since Surfer's allowed to amp and that Supes would win 7/10 if Surfer wasn't allowed to amp.

Unnatural-POWER
Originally posted by darthgoober
Oh it's been concretely established on panel to be one of his abilities, it's just not something that gets mentioned all that often...
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/7291/ffv15511ampingjv0.jpg
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/3043/ffv15512amping2qv5.jpg

And if you're wondering why Surfer's base strength was less than Thing's in that instance, it's from his period of being depowered on Earth.

To me, this clearly shows Surfer amping himself up, so i won't debate this point anymore, that is irrefutable proof IMO.
Credit to you for those scans.

Originally posted by darthgoober
For the most part I agree with you. I disagree in that I think Surfer takes a clear majority in fight with NO stipulations, but I can agree that they split this particular fight 5/10 each since Surfer's allowed to amp and that Supes would win 7/10 if Surfer wasn't allowed to amp.

I was basing my 5/10 split on Surfer being able to amp while being attacked, and this is a point i'm still not so sure about, i mean could he still amp himself while being hit from someone like Superman?
I'm not debating if he could take a punch from Superman, because of course he can, what i'm unsure of, is whether he could keep concentration WHILE being attacked.

But i'm happy with the 7/10 un-amped Surfer, i feel that is about right IMO.

It's late now (1am), so i'm gonna go now, but if you wanna debate more tomorrow then we can resume then, or if you feel everything has already been said then i'm okay with that too.

Thanks for keeping it friendly buddy smile

abhilegend
Bump

Delta1938
Originally posted by darthgoober
Who wins in a fight in space with no "cheap" tactics? That means no weakness exploitation for Surfer and no speed blitz or T-Vo for Supes.

I find it very odd that you'd think speed blitz or T-Vo are "cheap tactics" for Superman. I could see the argument that the nature of Torquasm-Vo would make things difficult for Surfer since it's not traditional telepathy (and is pretty Deus Machina, but I see people argue stuff on assumption for Surfer all the time), but otherwise it looks like a lack of confidence in Surfer's speed and telepathy/telepathic defense.

Darth Thor
^ I think he meant speed blitz right from the onset of the fight. Dont think he meant Superman cant use his combat speed once the fight gets going for a while.

Just how I understood it anyway.

BrolyBlack
Originally posted by horrorwolf
Lets see...

If we say that....

1. Surfer doesnt exploit Superman's weaknesses to K-nite....such as by duplicating it for weapons or bombarding Superman with RedSun...or changing his own body into K-nite.

2. Surfer doesnt screw with Superman's DNA or matter.

3. Surfer doesnt utilize cosmic energy to amp beyond Superman levels.

4. Surfer doesnt cheat by utilizing cosmic energy to sustain his endurance or heal any damage recieved.

5. Surfer doesnt utilize cosmic energy to boost his body armor/durability....

6. Surfer doesnt utilize his cosmic awareness to locate and use Lois as a human shield...

Then Id definitely say that Superman should take this for a majority of 7/10.

Odd why does he never use this in any fights that matter and he always loses?

Delta1938
Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ I think he meant speed blitz right from the onset of the fight. Dont think he meant Superman cant use his combat speed once the fight gets going for a while.

Just how I understood it anyway.

I still find it odd, given the rep Surfer's speed has, and who made the topic. I'd think someone would only disallow it(regardless of it being period or at the beginning) as a "cheap tactic" unless they weren't confident in Surfer's ability to handle Superman's speed. T-Vo I give at least somewhat of a pass on thinking the same due to the vague nature(well technically it'd still be lack of confidence but I'm talking about the vague nature meaning traditional telepathy may not work, instead of lack of confidence in Surfer's raw telepathic power/Defense).

But I don't expect him to remember the exact reason he detailed the stipulations given it was over 11 years ago.

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