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Since we use game mechanics, Kain fights Safter Sephiroth.

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Since this is in the wrong forum, it will be moved.

Since we use game mechanics, Kain's shield will protect him from that blast.

Ah. Here it is.
And Kain's shield can't take planet busting.

prove it, the shield can take any attack according to the description

but seriously, Kain just teleports and impales this douche, do you see how damn long it takes for that fool to even start? he gets douched by kain before he gets a quarter of the way through his spell

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Ah. Here it is.
And Kain's shield can't take planet busting.

The shield is in-game indestructable. You said yourself that we are using in-game. This in-game ability can not be destroyed, so bust as much as you like.

exactley, blow up the unvierse! in-game the shield cannot be destroyed lol pwned by your own flame thread

So...now Kain can survive planet-busting?
Why do I bother.

lol your own threads rules "shrug" but why would blowing up a planet worry someone? unless you cannot breathe the vaccume of space ofc

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
So...now Kain can survive planet-busting?
Why do I bother.

He can if you bring in game-mechanics. Suit yourself. You basically digged your own grave in this attempt of a flame.

Nope. It's not a game mechanic. It's a game ABILITY.
Lol The MECHANIC is the solar system coming back.
Owned yourselves.

This is just sad.

no you said mechanics, if were using the mechanics, its completly invulerable

the ability itself, is Repel, which is the game ability

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Nope. It's not a game mechanic. It's a game ABILITY.
Lol The MECHANIC is the solar system coming back.
Owned yourselves.

It is a game ability, yes. It is also a game-mechanic. Things can be both, you know.

Originally posted by Furion
This is just sad.

QFT!

But it is fun to see how far it can go

@ BT So now you don't even follow your own rules.
Pathetic really.



Except you use your madeup definition of game mechanics.
I'll play your game with game ability being different. Using that, Kain dies horribly because his game ability can't deal with planet busting.

its his own flame thread, he should deal with his own consequences, either way PiG has a lot to learn, who knows maybe he will learn rules and debate skills

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
@ BT So now you don't even follow your own rules.
Pathetic really.



Except you use your madeup definition of game mechanics.
I'll play your game with game ability being different. Using that, Kain dies horribly because his game ability can't deal with planet busting.

The game tooltip says its indestructable and going by the rules of this thread, that is alright. Therefore busting the galaxy will not destroy it because it is indestructable which means no busting. Indestructable means that it can not be destroyed. It also means that you can bust as much as you like. The shield will remain and Kain will remain in it.

although the shield is a bad example, it is documented to be as powerful as its in-game version shows, so it really is indestructable in all instances it has excisted in, in documentation and gameplay, but this thread is a failed flame

either way Kain wins without using his shield

Okay then. Kain dies as he can't survive in space and since the solar system went boom, there's nothing left and the shield doesn't last forever.

Oh and Sephiroth can teleport too...um, didn't you even WATCH the video?Please comment on a topic when you actually know what you're talking about.

Going by game-mechanics, surviving in space is possible. Kain is a vampire and requires no air to survive, since he is undead. It is called video-game endurance mechanic. It is a game mechanic. It is stupid, but it is a video-game mechanic.

Surviving in space require sa lot more than just oxygen.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Okay then. Kain dies as he can't survive in space and since the solar system went boom, there's nothing left and the shield doesn't last forever.

Oh and Sephiroth can teleport too...um, didn't you even WATCH the video?Please comment on a topic when you actually know what you're talking about.

why can he not survive in space? he would have air in his body and he doesnt need to breathe so he should be fine especially with his shield, Kain will "have" to survive in space anyway since remember, kain cant die.

yeh, i watched how slow the spell is, before Sephiroth even moves his arms, Kains reaver will be in his head, end off match......

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Surviving in space require sa lot more than just oxygen.

Not with game-mechanics. Games are fantasy creations and does not always make sense. Thanks to game-mechanics there are plenty of people that have survived in space. Kain would be able to do the same.
That is why people exclude game-mechanics from fights.

Kain was never in goddam spac.e...



Ye she can. Accept it or stop debating.

seriosuly game mechanics aside, what is required to survive in space, Humans explode because of air in their bodies and such, and ofc they cant breathe

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Kain was never in goddam spac.e..

No, but the game-mechanics would allow him to be, just like how game-mechanics allow people to survive a galaxy-busting attack.

Besides, game-mechanics appear to bring both the galaxy and the people in it back to life, so going by the FF game-mechanic, Kain survives. We do not have to use the LoK game mechanics to have Kain live, since the FF game-mechanics allows him to survive since in fact it does no damage at all to the galaxy.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Kain was never in goddam spac.e...

Ye he can. Accept it or stop debating.

erm no you stop debating all together, youve failed enough today ime sure, you need a rest from it, learn characters, their powers and abilities which is important in a debate etc etc and what is Kain being in space to do with anything? hes still technically dead

Bullshit.
No evidence of this.
Stop making up things please.



So now you want to prioritize FF game mechanics when it suits you.
Nice.



Kain dies. Get over it,

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
So now you want to prioritize FF game mechanics when it suits you.
Nice.

Proritize? You were the one that wanted to use game-mechanics in the first place. Thse game mechanics allows not only the survival of the character, but the entire galaxy. Sure, game-mechanics would allow Kain to live in space but he would not have to since FF game-mechanics will undo all the damage the attack has done to the galaxy.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Kain dies. Get over it,

lawlz Kains never died, so how can you say he dies? but infact he has died, your right, when he had his heart ripped out he technically died, when he was killed by Thugs in BO1, he was still kain, human but still kain and he died, but ofc, he always comes back, he simply cannot "stay" dead, he will always return since he cannot truelly die

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Kain lives. Get over it,

Originally posted by Burning thought
lawlz Kains never died, so how can you say he dies? but infact he has died, your right, when he had his heart ripped out he technically died, when he was killed by Thugs in BO1, he was still kain, human but still kain and he died, but ofc, he always comes back, he simply cannot "stay" dead, he will always return since he cannot truelly die

No Limits Fallacy.
But what can you expect from Kain is skyfather....

You all need to learn to debate.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
You are all idiots.

You are basing this on what exactly?

The simple fact you seem to think Kain can survive in space, despite no proof. The simple fact you think Kain can survive planet busting, with no proof.
It's all assumptions to benefit your side and it's idiotic.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
No Limits Fallacy.
But what can you expect from Kain is skyfather....

You all need to learn to debate.



"nooo everyone has it in for me!! you all need to learn to debate not me, ime right and everyone is wrong nooo!!, Pyronz iz Skyfather Galaxy sizeddd!"

You think Glory can beat planet busters too?
You do know Buffy's Gllorificus is a god who is said can't be harmed or killed.
Like Kain, she's why No Limits Fallacy exists.

if it says a being cannot be harmed or killed then you cannot assume otherwise just because YOU or others think that their character is simply more powerful and above that rule, i dont know who this character is but if a being cannot be harmed or killed, and is official, then trying to debate against it, is like trying to debate against FACTS which are set in stone, wheras your assumptions of what an apprently stronger character according to you can overrule it is an incredible load of BS , Kain simply canot die, and about this Glory person i dont know, but being able to destroy large amounts does not make you unbeatable, if a planet, galaxy, or universe buster takes 5 seconds to cast the power that can do it, and has no soul defenses, they die, or if they have no defense of a particulour type that their opponent has an attack for that could instantly kill them, they die, simple.

Fine, whatever. Continue using your No Limits Fallacy.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
The simple fact you seem to think Kain can survive in space, despite no proof. The simple fact you think Kain can survive planet busting, with no proof.
It's all assumptions to benefit your side and it's idiotic.

It is not assumptions. It is based on the fact that you wanted to use game-mechianics, which is quite stupid.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Fine, whatever. Continue using your No Limits Fallacy.

as soon as i use one i will but your childish antics and bickering is pointless, actually debate or be banned for trolling, possible spamming, dragging things off topic, insulting, profanity, the list can prob go on and what makes it worse that nothing youve said in your time here is a debate and most of it is actually wrong

Originally posted by Becci
It is not assumptions. It is based on the fact that you wanted to use game-mechianics, which is quite stupid.

Even using game mechanics, we never see Kain surviving in space.

ill pull one of your silly comments

"zomg but you cant disprove he cannot either!!"

Originally posted by Burning thought
as soon as i use one i will but your childish antics and bickering is pointless, actually debate or be banned for trolling, possible spamming, dragging things off topic, insulting, profanity, the list can prob go on and what makes it worse that nothing youve said in your time here is a debate and most of it is actually wrong

Kain can't die is a No Limits Fallacy.

I like how you insult me in the same post as insulting me though.
I'll repeat what I said before:
You define Hypocrisy.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Kain can't die is not a No Limits Fallacy, its a Factual statement, debating against a fact with an assumption ofc is wrong which i have at last learnt, if a character has a power, my character who i belive randomly to be more powerful cannot overule it simply because i think so

I like how you give your opinion on me in the same post as insulting me though, it really helps me understand my broken logic and how I have done wrong in this forum
I'll repeat what I said before:
I define Hypocrisy and furthermore, ill now go and learn to debate.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Even using game mechanics, we never see Kain surviving in space.

Not that it matters, since the galaxy-busting attack doesnt bust the galaxy, since we're going with game-mechanics.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Loser says what?

Originally posted by Burning thought
What?

Gameplay Sephiroth can survive sword attacks like nothing, shield doesn't last forever, gameplay Sephiroth has heartless angel

pff, Kain is unbeatable in gameplay, hell just go back to the last checkpoint.....

Sephiroth and everyone in FF is unbeatable in gameplay. They'll just use Phoenix Down.

which is limited rly, because you can only use it so many times, does sephiroth have any? I mean if hes dead he wouldnt be able to use it anyway would he, he would need an ally

Yeah, he can use Omega and Chaos and sh1t.

Omega and Chaos are choir girls

And they quake planets.

meh, only little women do that sort of thing, to compensate for their weakness

If we're going off of straight gameplay versions of characters, lets use Nibelheim flashback Sephiroth. He can't take any damage, he's literally invincible.

Supernova = Earths destruction.

No proof that says Kain will die, but, then he won't be able to do anything either.

Sephiroth uses Heartless Angel, then spams shadow flare until it hits. Game Over.


Using game play mechanics is the sucky-est.

Supernova doesn't destroy anything, it only hurts its victims. It is a powerful magic attack occompanied by an illusion that shows the solar system being destroyed.

.....ruin my fun.....

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Supernova doesn't destroy anything, it only hurts its victims. It is a powerful magic attack occompanied by an illusion that shows the solar system being destroyed.

Whats your basis of claiming this?

The fact that the players are still standing on a non destroyed planet after it is used multiple times. Also common sense. Supernova is an illusion, that is a fact.

Ok, so Safer uses Heartless Angel (Isn't it caled Sin Harvest in FFVII?) and then Shadow Flare.

No mana after Heartless hits, so he can't shield up either.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
The fact that the players are still standing on a non destroyed planet after it is used multiple times. Also common sense. Supernova is an illusion, that is a fact.

Supernova doesnt destroy the planet... This "multiple times" argument can be used with ANY summon to make them seem like an illusion, Titan flips over the same piece of land over and over yet after the summon the land somehow appears back, Neo Bahamut lifts up a chunk of land, destroys it, yet after the summon is over that same chunk of land is somehow reformed and un damaged, so are you going to start saying Bahamuts and Titan are illusions as well? So that whole Bahamut in AC was all an illusion?

You have no basis of claiming its an illusion let alone "fact".

You're speech about the summons just proved my point, thanks. We see in Crisis Core that when you summon a creature the person it is being used against is shown an illusion, and that none of the effects or changing of the land is real.

Yeah this topic failed at game mechanics applied.

Thing is Kain sheilds wont last forever and sadly he has a healthbar.

So i just opened up my company. First thing Im a do is a creathe most shittiest game. But the main character will be able to use Kain as cheap toilet paper.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
You're speech about the summons just proved my point, thanks. We see in Crisis Core that when you summon a creature the person it is being used against is shown an illusion, and that none of the effects or changing of the land is real.

So ur claiming that all summons are just illusions now? Odin doesnt exist? Meteor doesnt exist? Holy doesnt exist? wow.. just wow..

You might want to learn how to read. I said that all of the effects and changes to the landscape summons cause are illusions, as shown very clearly in Crisis Core. When Ifrit is summoned the landscape doesn't become hellish, hot and bleak, that is simply an illusion that the victim of the summon is shown. The damage done is real, but none of the environmental effects are. Ifrit doesn't actually turn the section of land where he is summoned into hell, and Supernova doesn't actually destroy any planets.

This is why FFIX summons own the others.
lp7xlm1_9f0

Canon feats for the win.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
You might want to learn how to read. I said that all of the effects and changes to the landscape summons cause are illusions, as shown very clearly in Crisis Core. When Ifrit is summoned the landscape doesn't become hellish, hot and bleak, that is simply an illusion that the victim of the summon is shown. The damage done is real, but none of the environmental effects are. Ifrit doesn't actually turn the section of land where he is summoned into hell, and Supernova doesn't actually destroy any planets.
wtf are you talking about? So the damage summons cause to the landscape are illusions? So Bahamut Sin destroying that big monument in AC is actually an illusion? And itll somehow return back into its normal form after Cloud kills Bahamut Sin? Uhh no.. its called "poor gameplay mechanics" thats why everything repeats itself when summons are used in gameplay, obviously theyre not gonna put in permanent ground damage everytime the summon is summoned or magic is used.

Oh and when ifrit was summoned the landscape around them was hot and red.

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Supernova is an illusion because it is obvious the entire party and Sephiroth would not be able to survive that attack, and that single attack as shown in gameplay was MUCH more impressive than any other attack shown in FFVII. That and Sephiroth already has power over illusions.

Bahamut Shin is described as being able to manifest itself in the real world, differentiating it from the other summons that exist in an illusion. Ifrit doesn't change anything, the cutscenes show us very outright that when a summon is used against you, you are placed in an illusionary realm.

Supernova does not destroy the solar system. You really need to read up on FF VII related issues more often.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
This is why FFIX summons own the others.
lp7xlm1_9f0

Canon feats for the win.

My summon > your summon

NiQ0KgqWUCM

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Supernova is an illusion because it is obvious the entire party and Sephiroth would not be able to survive that attack, and that single attack as shown in gameplay was MUCH more impressive than any other attack shown in FFVII. That and Sephiroth already has power over illusions.

Since when has a summon ever harmed the caster? Normally outside of gameplay a small cactus creature cannot survive giant bahamut blasts, however in gameplay they can, regular human soldiers cannot take multiple chops from Clouds sword either but in gameplay they can, its all about gameplay mechanics, they have a thing called HP


Show me the actual quote,

No not all summons bring you into an ilusionary realm.. Titan just comes and flips the chunk of ground below you, does he somehow turn that ground ur standing on into an "illusion"? So when Sephiroth summoned meteor, does meteor an illusionary earth to collide into? You said it yourself that they do no actual damage to the environment

Since when has fire hurt Sephiroth? At anyrate. I think it is obvious that Supernova is an illusion excluding the actual fire ball itself.

Terry, you're starting to get ridiculous here. I'm a big fan of FF VII, but its painfully obvious that you're being a Sephiroth fanboy right now. Supernova is an illusion, the summons except for Bahamut Shin take their victim into an illusionary realm to hurt them, these are both undeniable facts.

You are contradicting things you say, and no not all summons bring you into an "illusionary realm to hurt them" titan, ramuh, odin, bahamut, etc basically every summon just comes onto the battlefield and attacks them, thats why its called a "Summon" because it summons forth another being or thing to harm the opponent, and what about the Shadow Creeps in AC? Those aren't capable of harming the environment either? There is still no proof or any real evidence that Supernova is an illusion, it is no different from any other summon.

I feel i must say there's no proof they are all illusions. Most of them seem plausibly real to me. Only the top end ones are likely to be illusions.

Point being if other FF games have them as real, why should FF7 be different?

Go play Crisis Core. When Ifrit is used against Zack we see the sky fading away and replaced by a hellish sky, as well as the terrain he is on going from forest to flames. Zack is still standing in the middle of the forest of Wutai though, he wasnever taken anywhere, and as soon as Ifrit is defeated everything goes back to normal. When Zack fights Bahamut he is at Banora, then we see Bahamut coming down from the sky and even though Zack is still in Banora village, to Zack he is in the middle of nowhere on a piece of rock with clouds everywhere. Then when Bahamut goes down everything's back to normal. When you fight Bahamut Fury you're still in Midgar, but all the buildings dissapear and are replaced by an oddly colored sky. When B Fury goes down everything is normal again.

Its irrefutable evidence. While FF VII never displayed this in action(except for in the case of Knights of the Round), Crisis Core shows us very explicitly that a summons environmental changes and effects are illusionary, only causing physical damage to their victim. Its the same with Supernova, while the damage done to its victim is real, the entire destruction of the Solar System sequence is an illusion, no planets are detroyed by the attack.

So...Terry you're arguing Seph can really destroy planets now with an intergalactic comet of doom he can summon at will?
Wow.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Since when has fire hurt Sephiroth? Just because Genesis' fireball didn't hurt him doesn't mean a Supernova won't lol.

Yeah FFIX summons were the strongest, easily.

Cleyra was on a tree, something easy to burn/explode. Odin shooted a big fire ball from the top, and it fell destroying everything in its way, until it reached the base of the tree, destroying it completely.
Could Odin have done the same, if he attacked from the side(not the top) and if the target wasn't made of wood? No.

Fact is... If the Summons of FFIX have this level of power(city-busters), then Bahamut would have exploded the Iifa Tree when he attacked Kuja. Atomos would have sucked up the entire city of Lindblum. And Bahamut would have blew-up Alexandria in his first attack(before Alexander even appeared).
The Iifa Tree, Alexandria, and Linblum would be craters in the World Map.

The Summons of FFIX are overrated.



And please Terry, tell me you don't believe Sephiroth can blow-up multiple planets.

Yeah, I think he does.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Go play Crisis Core. When Ifrit is used against Zack we see the sky fading away and replaced by a hellish sky, as well as the terrain he is on going from forest to flames. Zack is still standing in the middle of the forest of Wutai though, he wasnever taken anywhere, and as soon as Ifrit is defeated everything goes back to normal. When Zack fights Bahamut he is at Banora, then we see Bahamut coming down from the sky and even though Zack is still in Banora village, to Zack he is in the middle of nowhere on a piece of rock with clouds everywhere. Then when Bahamut goes down everything's back to normal. When you fight Bahamut Fury you're still in Midgar, but all the buildings dissapear and are replaced by an oddly colored sky. When B Fury goes down everything is normal again.

Its irrefutable evidence. While FF VII never displayed this in action(except for in the case of Knights of the Round), Crisis Core shows us very explicitly that a summons environmental changes and effects are illusionary, only causing physical damage to their victim. Its the same with Supernova, while the damage done to its victim is real, the entire destruction of the Solar System sequence is an illusion, no planets are detroyed by the attack.

It still doesn't mean EVERY summon, even ifrit and bahamut in FF7, when the PARTY summons him ifrit just comes onto the battle field and attacks.. the character doesn't move anywhere and stays exactly where they are , in AC Both the shadow creeps and bahamut just comes and attacks which is even more evidence, you cannot claim ALL summons are illusions just because of those couple battles in CC.


throughout FF7 when you play as Sephiroth no elemntal damage hurts Sephiroth, also when ifrit shot at Zack Sephiroth stepped in the way and the fire didn't harm him


I'm just saying theres no real evidence that supernova is an "illusion"

Are you daft? Crisis Core is the most recent entry into the series, therefore it is the highest degree of canon other than the words of the creators. That means that all summons environmental effects are illusions, beyond a shadow of a doubt. FF VII didn't have the graphical capabilities to show the illusionary factor, and since it has been retconned by Crisis Core it is not valid evidence in this instance.\



You mean except for the fact that the latest entry in the series blatantly shows us that summons are illusioons, the fact that Sephiroth can cast it multiple times and the planets are there to be destroyed again every time, etc...

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Just because Genesis' fireball didn't hurt him doesn't mean a Supernova won't lol.

Yeah FFIX summons were the strongest, easily.

Fire has never hurt him before, why would it in this instance.

I'm recalling something about SMP....

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Are you daft? Crisis Core is the most recent entry into the series, therefore it is the highest degree of canon other than the words of the creators. That means that all summons environmental effects are illusions, beyond a shadow of a doubt. FF VII didn't have the graphical capabilities to show the illusionary factor, and since it has been retconned by Crisis Core it is not valid evidence in this instance.\
Again, 1 or 2 summons does not = EVERY summon, in CC, seems like the summons brought zack into their realm to fight, but in FF7 / AC, when the summons were actually SUMMONED, they were SUMMONED to the battlefield.


Every summon can be casted more then one time, and the same sequence will happen over and over again, duh its gameplay mechanic.

Once again, Crisis Core retconned what FF VII couldn't achieve graphically, and Bahamut Shin is a special case as explained by AC's creators.



That is because they are illusions. I'm afraid the entries in the compilation and its creators words hold a little more weight than your ignorant rantings. Only a fool would carry on as you are doing now, notice how no one else agrees with you?

Of course there's no tree in the real world the size of Cleyra. You will now quantify how much power it would take to reduce something of its mass to a crater in seconds. Judging by the fireball, the required firepower is qual to that of the A-Bomb dropped on Hiroshima.



I hope you know you can't prove this statement.



The Iifa Tree is much larger than most of the cities in IX and is a millennia-old mechanism designed by a space-ferrying race. Bahamut also did not intend to destroy the Iifa Tree but merely to attack Kuja.
You need to drop your assumptions and desperate attempt to demean FFIX firepower.



It's outright stated by Zidane that it's lucky Lindblum surrendered or they would have ended up like Cleyra.

Implication being Atomos COULD have done that but it wasn't ordered to because Lindblum had admitted defeat.

Also, Brahne wanted the jewel in the city. It be kinda impossible to get at it if Atomos sucked it up. So, from the start, Atomos' mission was not to suck up all of Lindblum.



You do realize Bahamut's only reason for being there was for Garnet and Eiko to summon Alexander? If Kuja ordered him to destroy the city and the castle, there be no uber-summon and Kuja's plans be destroyed.



More like they get the power respect they deserve and you've resorted to assumptions, guesswork and general bullshit to try and demean them.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Once again, Crisis Core retconned what FF VII couldn't achieve graphically, and Bahamut Shin is a special case as explained by AC's creators.

Where is the quote for Bahamut sin? What about Shadow Creepers summon? Do they have a "special case" as well?


Because they are illusions? No its simple GAMEPLAY MECHANIC, same thing in FFIX, the same cutscene sequence repeats itself over and over when a summon is used, SIMPLE GAMEPLAY MECHANIC, Does this mean FFIX summons are illusions as well? NO, as you can see when they are used outside of gameplay where the gameplay mechanics dont apply, it becomes more realistic..

Same thing with FFVII when summons are used in the movie.

This is common knowledge, it is YOU who are giving out "ignorant rantings"

Compilation Ultimania Guide:

Summoned Beasts

Beings which are called forth from summon materia, many of which outwardly resemble monsters. As seen in the original game of FFVII, the summon beasts draw their targets into their own unique space in order to attack. However, Advent Children's Bahamut Tremor, was a summon beast who attacked while interacting with the real world.



No, its shown in cutscenes outside of gameplay in Crisis Core quite clearly. Its not a gameplay mechanic, its part of the stroy.

Now, if my arguments are so ignorant, why are you the only one disagreeing with them? As seen above even the creators of the compilation state that you're wrong.

Can anyone remind me why this actually matters?

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Compilation Ultimania Guide:

Summoned Beasts

Beings which are called forth from summon materia, many of which outwardly resemble monsters. As seen in the original game of FFVII, the summon beasts draw their targets into their own unique space in order to attack. However, Advent Children's Bahamut Tremor, was a summon beast who attacked while interacting with the real world.


Can you give a proper link to where that referance is from? The guy at GS just posted it as well without giving reference to where this "translation" is from, the thing i dont understand about that quote is

"As seen in the original game of FFVII, the summon beasts draw their targets into their own unique space in order to attack."

- As seen in the original game of FFVII? In the original game only KOTR was the only summon to "draw their target into their own unique space in order to attack" the rest just got summoned forth

And what about the shadow creep summons then? Why doesn't it mention anything about those?

Yes i'd like to see where this is originally from.


So basically what your saying is in FF7, when the summon comes forth it turns everything into an identical illusion of the battlefield, and everything it destroys on the identical battlefield is just an illusion?

This information is all in the Crisis Core complete guide, from the key word section that details quite a few terms in the world of FF VII. Look, you've been defeated, instead of trying to disprove the games creators just move on and accept that the summons, supernova included, are merely illusions.

First you say, its from the UOG, looked through the translation, it says nothing about bahamut sin there, then you say its from the "Compilation Ultimania Guide" yet theres no translation of this anywhere, now you say its in the "Crisis Core complete guide" still without giving me a reference as to where you got the information from, and you still don't answer any of my questions... wow

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Compilation Ultimania Guide:

Summoned Beasts

Beings which are called forth from summon materia, many of which outwardly resemble monsters. As seen in the original game of FFVII, the summon beasts draw their targets into their own unique space in order to attack. However, Advent Children's Bahamut Tremor, was a summon beast who attacked while interacting with the real world.


You do realise that this alone pretty much destroys your argument that all summons with the exception of Bahamut Sin are illusions, right? As is stated, there's no illusion, the summons simply draw their targets into "their own unique space."

The source information was an error on my part. I was thinking about the compilation UG but the information is from the Complete Guide. I don't have a source, its simply in the book. The creators have spoken against you, sorry champ.


Also, wow, making socks to help yourself in an argument. How mature.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
The source information was an error on my part. I was thinking about the compilation UG but the information is from the Complete Guide. I don't have a source, its simply in the book. The creators have spoken against you, sorry champ.


Also, wow, making socks to help yourself in an argument. How mature.
Wow assuming like a moron, how mature. SOLDIER 1st is not me, if i had something to say i'd say it on my own account.

First of all in FF7, there was only ONE summon that brought the enemy into another realm, in CC there was the 2 summon fights where they brought Zack into another realm, this doesn not EQUAL ALL summons must do it to harm the opponent

Stating that in AC Bahamut Sin was attacking in the real world does not EQUAL that Bahamut Sin is the ONLY Summon capable of doing that, as shown in AC Shadow Creeps were doing it too.. in FFVII just about every summon was doing it.

According to the creators the summons in FF VII all bring you into an illusionary realm. Their word has a lot more weight than your word, I'm afraid.

As for the Shadow Creepers, they aren't traditional summons, they are the negative lifestream being manipulated by the remnants into a form to attack an opponent, quite different from the other summons.

Look, you've lost. Please concede.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
According to the creators the summons in FF VII all bring you into an illusionary realm. Their word has a lot more weight than your word, I'm afraid.

As for the Shadow Creepers, they aren't traditional summons, they are the negative lifestream being manipulated by the remnants into a form to attack an opponent, quite different from the other summons.

Look, you've lost. Please concede. It was never said to be illusionary.Did you not read your own quote?

Did you read it? It says they bring you into their own space(see: illusion) and that Bahamut Shin can interact with the real world. If they weren't illusionary then they wouldn't specify between the summons "own realm" and the real world. Also, as pointed out earlier Crisis Core clearly shows us they take their victim into an illusionary realm.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
According to the creators the summons in FF VII all bring you into an illusionary realm. Their word has a lot more weight than your word, I'm afraid.

As for the Shadow Creepers, they aren't traditional summons, they are the negative lifestream being manipulated by the remnants into a form to attack an opponent, quite different from the other summons.

Look, you've lost. Please concede.


Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Compilation Ultimania Guide:

Summoned Beasts

Beings which are called forth from summon materia, many of which outwardly resemble monsters. As seen in the original game of FFVII, the summon beasts draw their targets into their own unique space in order to attack. However, Advent Children's Bahamut Tremor, was a summon beast who attacked while interacting with the real world.
Beings which are called forth from summon materia, many of which outwardly resemble monsters. As seen in the original game of FFVII, many of the summon beasts draw their targets into their own unique space in order to attack. However, Advent Children's Bahamut Tremor, was a summon beast who attacked while interacting with the real world.

^ Fixed, i like how you cut out the word "MANY" to try to make it seem like ALL summons bring their opponents into a realm, again it doesn't say ALL summons do it, from what we have seen, only KOTR, and the battles where bahamut, and ifrit did it to Zack.

Again, stating that Bahamut Tremor attacking the real world, does NOT mean that it's the only summon capable of doing that, proven by the Shadow Creepers,

Shadow Creepers are infact SUMMONs as stated by the UOG.

Those words aren't present in the translations I used, in fact I've never seen them used before at all, and regardless many means most, leaving an exception for Bahamut Shin. Once again, the Shadow Creepers aren't normal summons. They are only capable of being summoned by the remnants, and are made of tainted lifestream. Please, quit grasping at straws and concede, you're getting ridiculous here.

Supernova and the summons besides Bahamut Shin all have illusions for environmental effects.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Those words aren't present in the translations I used, in fact I've never seen them used before at all, and regardless many means most, leaving an exception for Bahamut Shin. Once again, the Shadow Creepers aren't normal summons. They are only capable of being summoned by the remnants, and are made of tainted lifestream. Please, quit grasping at straws and concede, you're getting ridiculous here.

Supernova and the summons besides Bahamut Shin all have illusions for environmental effects.
Where does it say "all"? No where, i dont see where ur getting that all summons besides bahamut sin does that (besides the fake quote you posted), infact we only see three, the two in crisis core, and kotr in ff7.

So where did u find that translation? You forgot im guessing? You obviously purposely put there so you can try to fool people into believing that "all" summons have that.

Shadow Creeps are infact summons as stated by the UOG, the only difference is that Shadow Creeps tap into the power of the negative lifestream as other summons tap into the power of the original lifestream, but there has never been shown any difference between the negative lifestream, and the original lifestream besides the fact that Sephiroth and his remnants are able to control it.

But nonetheless they are SUMMONs, just from the NL instead of the normal lifestream.

I'm debating here and all you're doing is giving me nothing except begging me to concede for some reason.

I never said it said all, as it excludes Bahamut Shin. The fact is that the quote does not specifically say any other summons can appear in the real world, and none of them are ever shown doing so. FF VII is not a good example, as it has been retconned.



LOL. No, actually I have a friend who speaks Japanese and gives me info from his Ultimanias and Complete Guides. Even if I were "making up quotes," which clearly I'm not given that you posted the same quote only slightly different, its better than you making socks to help yourself debate.



Wrong again, junior. The UOG says nothing whatsoever about Shadow Creepers. The Reunion Files says they are "summons," but they are not summons like the other summoned beasts. Actual summoned beasts require a materia to use and are their own entity, Shadow Creeper are the SHM manipulating negative mako.

The Crisis Core Complete Guide makes this perfectly clear when it says summons are used via materia, and the Shadow Creepers are not.



See above, sport. They aren't summons.



LOL. Debating? No, what you're doing is spouting unsupported nonsense and clinging to retconned sequences that the creators themselves have spoken against. You need to concede because you've lost, as clearly reference by the fact that only your sock ha agreed with you.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
I never said it said all, as it excludes Bahamut Shin. The fact is that the quote does not specifically say any other summons can appear in the real world, and none of them are ever shown doing so. FF VII is not a good example, as it has been retconned.
wrong:

wrong again:

wrong yet again:


You've been claiming that ALL summons are illusions, when the PROPER text doesn't say that at all.

FF7 is retconned? Because there were 2 summons in Crisis Core that brought Zack into a realm to fight means FF7 is retconned?


Yeah i didn't think you would be able to provide me properly where you got it,
I guess your friend somehow translated it exactly word by word, punctuation by punctuation, just minus the 2 words right? Haha.

And you've got to be quite ignorant as to think that i'm making "socks" to talk to you, please go ask a mod so you can prove yourself wrong once again.


Exactly, they are SUMMONs

All materia does is TAP INTO THE POWER OF THE LIFESTREAM

The SHM were able to control a small portion of the NL thus they were able to summon the shadow creepers WITHOUT materia.


Again, all materia does is tap into the power of the lifestream, SHM are capable of controlling a small portion of the NL thus they are able to summon the shadow creepers WITHOUT materia.



Comprehend facts, they are summons.



What am i spouting that is "unsupported"? How about you explain how "all" summon require them to bring them into a realm to hurt them, oh thats right, your fake text already got corrected, guess you cant do that.

No, I've alwasy said that it wasn't the case with Bahamut SHin, the only actual summon to not draw you into an illusion.

Also, it was three summons in Crisis Core and the fact that the CC CG says the majority of summons do i, with the exception of B Shin.



Summoned creatures have always been around with the planet, the Shadow Creepers are a manipulation of the NL by the SHM, much as the SHM are NL being manipulated by Sephiroth's will. They aren't summons in the proper sense. The SHM aren't summons, so why do you think the Shadow Creepers are?



Wrong again, sport. Materia bring an already existing creature to attack the victim, the shadow creatures are corporeal NL. If the SHM decided to shape some NL into a poodle, it wouldn't be a summon.



I need to comprehend facts? Don't be so silly, sport.



Find me a quote saying not all summons in FF VII are causded by an illusion and then we'll talk. Until then, the only exception the creators made was B Shin, meaning you've lost.

Now back on topic, as demonstrated by the game, its creators, common sense, and the attack itself, Supernova is inarguably an illusion. To say otherwise is laughable.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
No, I've alwasy said that it wasn't the case with Bahamut SHin, the only actual summon to not draw you into an illusion.
Shadow Creepers ARE summon comprehend that please, it is stated by the R.F. Shadow Creepers are Summons (with a capitol S)


... it did NOT say the majority of summons.. it said many, many does not = majority, if i say that there are many people on earth have a PS3, does that mean the majority of people on earth have a PS3? No. Neither did the quote say Bahamut Shin is the ONLY exception.


Shadow Creepers are summons because the creators say so.



*Sigh* must i prove you wrong again?

All matera does is aids the person into tapping into different parts of the lifestreams power, depending on what materia is using, but all it really is, is just the power of the lifestream, as stated in the UOG:

"Materia links someone to the planet and allows
them to use its powers, its most likely that the materia allows someone to tap into the Lifestream's energy and manifest it as a spell based on the specs of the materia they're using."

SHM were able to summon without Materia because they have some control over the Negative Lifestream, but Shadow Creepers are STILL summons as stated by the creators themselves.



....The quote you originally posted from the Crisis Core Guide basically says not all summons are illusions, genius.

If all summons were illusions, then the word "many" would be replaced by the word "all", or in your case, if you cut out the word "many of" leaving it to just "the summons" then it COULD be taken as "all of the of summons"

If it wasn't only Bahamut Shin that could interact with the real world, they would have listed other summons. This is a simple fact. They outright stated many, many is not just three, many is a large number, and because they only gave one exception, there is only one exception.

The Shadow Creepers are not traditional summons, they have nothing to do with the planet. They, like the SHM themselvers, are just manipulated stagnant mako. The SHM are "summoned" by Sephiroth just as the SCs are "summons" of the SHM.

Now, since you can't form a coherent argument I'm afraid you're going to have to go one ignore.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
If it wasn't only Bahamut Shin that could interact with the real world, they would have listed other summons. This is a simple fact. They outright stated many, many is not just three, many is a large number, and because they only gave one exception, there is only one exception.
First you claim it was "all" i proved you wrong, then you claimed it was "majority" and i proved you wrong again, many can be more yes, but we've only seen 3, and we've seen many that aren't either, they said that in AC Bahamut Tremor was interacting witht the real world.. It didn't say It was the ONLY exception, obviously they are not going to post every single summon that exists.


Wth are you talking about? The only difference is that they didnt get summoned by materia because like i said SHM have the power over the Negative Lifestream so they don't require materia

They are SUMMONs, stop arguing with the creators words, SHM are physical manifestations of Sephiroth, SHM SUMMONED the Shadow Creepers, as the UOG says, they are SUMMONs.

Summons are from the power of the lifestream

Shadow Creepers are from the power of the negative lifestream

there hasn't shown to be any difference between the negative lifestream and the regular lifestream besides the fact that the negative are different color and are under Sephiroths control.

Again, like the creators said: Shadow Creepers are summons, don't argue the creators word.


Speak for yourself, no use debating someone who just repeats himself over and over even though i've already destroyed your argument.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Fire has never hurt him before, why would it in this instance.

I'm recalling something about SMP.... 1. Because a supernova is MUCH hotter and more intense in pressure as well.

2. What about him, other than he would solo FFVII?

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Did you read it? It says they bring you into their own space(see: illusion) and that Bahamut Shin can interact with the real world. If they weren't illusionary then they wouldn't specify between the summons "own realm" and the real world. Also, as pointed out earlier Crisis Core clearly shows us they take their victim into an illusionary realm. It doesn't even hint at it being an illusion.Their own world would be wherever summons exist when their not being summoned.

It states that they're illusions quite explicitly. They don't exist when they're not being summoned. This isn't FF IV where all the summons hang out underground when not beng called, they simply aren't around when they aren't being used. Go play Crisis Core, it will explain everything.

Guy's an idiot.

As seen in the original game of FFVII, many of the summon beasts draw their targets into their own unique space in order to attack.

It wouldn't be labelled "their own unique space" if it was all an illusion. Space is made up of matter. Illusions aren't.

Space is just space, actually. It is an empty sphere, a vaccum. Matter and space are not nearly synonyms.

Fallacy of equivocation FTW!

*facepalm*

Pointing out the gaping hole in your "argument" is in no way a logical falacy. Saying that space is made up of matter is the fallacy. Once again, go play Crisis Core.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
*facepalm*

Calm the feck down.



No, it was a fallacy of equivocation because, and as was quite clear, both I and the text were speaking of "space" as in a certain area that encompasses matter. Not actual empty space.



Already been done. Three times. The third time with an extremely thorough and complete FAQ. Every time we're shown a Summon, the scenery changes to fit "their own unique space." Nothing indicates that anything about that is a product of an illusion, and the creators' words disprove that. That you would make such an assumption says a lot about your lack of a brain.

^Guy got owned.

No, they were speaking of an illusionary space that the victim is drawn into.



Unfortunately for you they were clearly speaking of an illusiionary space, even Terry can admit that.




You sure have a problem facing reality. We are clearly shown that its an illusion. Zack is not drawn in to anything, the landscape simply changes. That alone proves it is illusionary, silly. By the way, you shouldn't flame after being proven wrong by myself and the game's creators. It makes you look ridiculous.

Caecilius, refrain from insults, thank you.

By the way, fascistcrusader, there is a fallacy in your argument. "Their own unique space" in no way translates to "an illusion." "Space" in this context is most likely "the intervening contents of a volume", which, as it is qualified as "unique", probably means the Summon's personal "dimension", where it exists when not in use. Therefore, it would seem that when a Summon is used, there is a temporary breach between dimensions where the Summon and the victim exist in both dimensions at once.

So, no, not really illusory.

Also, are you gonna accuse me of being Caecilius now?

If it were a real space and not an illusion they wouldn't make the distinction between their illusionary space and saying that Bahamut Shin can interact with the real world. If the space the other summons draws their victims into were real and not illusionary, they would not have made this distinction.

The distinction should be obvious. Bahamut Shin is summoned into the "real" world, instead of a temporary breaching between dimensions.

The simple fact here is that "space" does not translate to "illusion." Space is an area or volume that exists in a physical sense, an illusion is, by definition, a distortion of the brain's sensory perception, and is therefore entirely mental and non-physical.

The quote never said Bahamut Shin is the only summon that is able to be summoned to the real world, again Shadow Creepers in AC were capable as well, illusions was never mentioned ANYWHERE and has never been proven that any summons had any "illusion" effect.

Also, i never admitted to bringing them into an illusionary place, if you go back and read my posts i say bring them into their own "realm"

You have no proof whatsoever for your theory, GK. Not to mention that a breach between dimension is still a real place, and the creators made sure we knew that other than B Shin the summons don't interact with the real world.

Instead of making up ludicrous and baseless theories, just accept that the summons bring you into an ilusionary realm, and that Supernova is no different.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
You have no proof whatsoever for your theory, GK. Not to mention that a breach between dimension is still a real place, and the creators made sure we knew that other than B Shin the summons don't interact with the real world.

Instead of making up ludicrous and baseless theories, just accept that the summons bring you into an ilusionary realm, and that Supernova is no different.

What proof do you have for your theory? Why should anyone accept it?

I always thought it was common sense that when you summon something, you summon it from some other realm. Nothing to do with illusions.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
You have no proof whatsoever for your theory, GK. Not to mention that a breach between dimension is still a real place, and the creators made sure we knew that other than B Shin the summons don't interact with the real world.

Instead of making up ludicrous and baseless theories, just accept that the summons bring you into an ilusionary realm, and that Supernova is no different.
So, a working understanding of physics and the meaning of the word "space" makes my "theory" ludicrous and baseless. Or maybe the fact you don't want to agree with me is what makes it so "ludicrous."

What I said is perfectly logical reasoning following from an official source of information. It is certainly more logical than claiming that the Summons are completely illusory, when you can't ignore the fact that they affect their victims in a very real way - typically mortally so.

As Peach says, you don't summon illusions. The common concept of summoning is to call forth an entity or force from another dimension/realm/plane/whatever-you-like. Many (to use a word directly from said official source) of the Summons from VII simply have the distinction of bringing their dimension with them when they're summoned.

Gonna Co - Sign with the Mods on this on.

Logic is on their side.

Are you all blind? Go play Crisis Core. WHile the summoned beasts are real and can hurt their target, the environmental effects they cause are an illusion. If the environmental effects were real, and another dimension is still real whearas an illusion is not, they would not differentiate bewteen the summons realm and the REAL WORLD. The fact that they differentiate proves the summons realms are not real, making them illsuions.
Its the exact same thing with the training simulator on the SOLDIER floor of the ShinRa building. It all virtual reality, an illusion, but it can cause very real damage. A VR Behemoth was capable of killing Zack, and an illusionary Sephiroth broke his real sword in two. So that proves that even things of an ilusionary nature in FF VII can cause very real harm.

This isn't something that's up for debate, the creators have already settled the matter for us, and common sense reconfirms their words and intentions.

While you ask if we're blind, i could ask if you understand the meaning of English words. As their definitions are saying you are wrong.

Weighing Crisis Core against Advent Children. I'd Go with Advent Children.

For starters, they specifically said in the Ultimania that Bahamut Shin is an exception and can attack the real world, so that is in no way evidence for every summon. And secondly, because Crisis Core is the most recent entry in canon it trumps anything before it, so even if B SHin wasn't an exception CC would have retconned it.

Is the Odin's Gunge Lance Summon also an exception?

Only it's the exact same summon that appears in 8 i believe and destroys something that makes it canon.

Therefore since it is the very same thing, one must pose the question as to why you believe it to be different. There is no logical reason to do so. When coupled with the name of it, A summon, that immediately points it out that you are calling forth aid into the real world to help you.

Though i have to question the point of debating so fiercely on what seems to me to be a pretty mush irrelevant point

Seeing as how FF VII and VIII are entirely different universes, its not the same summon. In Crisis Core we see how Odin truly works, as a being that causes enviromental illsusions, like the rest of the summons.

Also, we're debating this because Terry illogically thinks Supernova destroying the solar system isn't an illusion, and then said that the summons aren't illusions so why should SN be. His argument backfired, however, when I showed that Crisis Core and the creators tell us that the summons environmental effecta are indeed illusions, and its the same with Supernova.

Backfired.. ? Ummm, you realized you've been owned by like everyone on this thread right? Theres no such thing as magical illusions in FF7, never been shown, no evidence, never ever been mentioned.

In Crisis Core they are NOT illusions, what makes you think that? They brought them into their own "space" (where the f*** did you get illusions from?) and the quote NEVER says Bahamut Shin is the ONLY summon to beable to attack the real world, in AC the Shadow Creepers were CLEARLY attacking the real world just as Bahamut Shin was.

Again, illusions as magic/summons have never been mentioned, heard of, proved, or anything in the entire FF7 story.

Firstly fascistcrusader, with the ambiguity of language, and the potential inaccuracies there can be between translations, you can't just simply interpret the passage in such a way when the conclusion that you draw from it isn't in any way supported by the original source material. If the creators truly intended the change in setting upon a Summon's arrival to have been illusory in nature, it would most likely have been made obvious, and not subtly included into the text in a way which was clearly never intended to have been analysed as in depth as you have been doing.

You also keep on telling people to play Crisis Core; I have, and nothing indicates that the setting change is in any semblance a product of an illusion - as it stands, the only thing that supports your conclusion is your asinine interpretation of the creators' words.

Now as for why a distinction is made between Gaia and the Summons' dimension in terms of how "real" they are, as should have been fairly obvious, Gaia is the setting in the story where everything takes place, the place that all the characters perceive as being their planet, and exactly what the story's based around, whereas these summons' dimensions are purely temporary locations that -- from the perspective of Gaia and all that is encompasses -- ceases to exist as soon as the summon is no longer in action. They're not part of "the real world" in that sense, not in the sense that they're not physical in nature and act -- and with no real purpose -- as an illusion. As has already been said to you, the very passage that you're basing your conclusion off of, through its use of language, disproves your already silly and unsupported theory.

Ambiguity of the language? Wow. You really are delusional. It states right there that Bahamut Shin interacts with the real world, and that the others have their own space. Now, logically, if their space isn't real, it must be an illusion. We know that supernova has an illusion that accompanies it, we know from the VR simulator that illusions can cause real damage, and we know from Sephiroth showing Cloud the real Nibelheim at the Northern Crater that illusions do happen in FF VII.

Now please, stop making socks to try to support your pathetic arguments.

One might argue from the simulator it only hurt him because he broken a real weapon and that hit him.

Example the Likari didn't slice him in half like it did the gigantic canon.

We're talking about Zack, not Genesis. An entirely VR Sephiroth broke Zack's very real SOLDIER sword in two, and Angeal had to save Zack. Then later on when Hojo is having Zack test some simulations he makes it clear that even though they aren't real, the damage they can cause is real.

A holographic training machine, proves illusions can cause real damage how?

How do you not get this? You pretty much answered it in the question.

They images in the training room aren't real, they're illusionary. These same images can cause lethal damage, as we're told by Hojo and the fact that a fake Sephiroth broke Zack's sword. This proves that illsuions can cause damage in the world of FF VII.

Just gonna note that I believe the same thing can happen in the holodeck in Star Trek. It's not real but it can kill you in some odd nonsensical way.

^ very good point.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
How do you not get this? You pretty much answered it in the question.

They images in the training room aren't real, they're illusionary. These same images can cause lethal damage, as we're told by Hojo and the fact that a fake Sephiroth broke Zack's sword. This proves that illsuions can cause damage in the world of FF VII.

No, this proves Shinra has the technologies to make their holographs capable of damage

Summons are magic based, thus it's different.


That proves nothing.

You can't be serious. FIrst its "if summons weren't real they couldn't hurt you," now its "well some non real things can hurt you because they have the technology for it."

That makes absolutely no sense. A magic based thing is more likely to do the impossible than something tech based. Besides which, the summons themselves aren't what's fake, its their effect on the environment, such as Ifrit giving the illsuion that you're in a fiery chasm or Supernova giving the illsuion that the solar system is being wiped out.




It proves you have trouble with logic.

Well i was thinking the same thing to be honest, You're argument in a nutshell appears to be, This proves A, which must prove B too, because their both letters.

It's bewildering how you have come to those conclusions. And amusing that you believe everyone else in wrong. Certainly when i have everyone else tellnig me i'm not correct, i rethink my position. Though you don't seem to, which is.... interesting.


I appreciate it's an old game and it's a potential basis for an arguement to say that they didn't have the option of doing so. However, since very few (Neo Bahamut, Leviathan and Knights of the Round) of the summons in the original game change the battlefield. I must say I don't believe you are correct about summons on the whole. I have only seen Youtube Clips but i don't see anyone 'summoning' the Ifrit, it almost seems to attack of it's own will to me. And that's the suggestion i'm putting forth.

When a summon is called forth to fight by someones side, it doesn't change the area via illusion. While the summon alone has the power to do so, and uses said power when it fights one on one.


Though i repeat myself to remind you, I do not believe that the Supernova attack destroys the planets and then makes the sun expand. Simply because if he could do that it's highly unlikely he'd need the Black Materia.

And for the record, i do not appreciate that final comment, i see it as an insult.

Genesis was the one who summoned Ifrit at Wutai, summons never just apopear out of nowhere. And appealing to the majority isn't an argument. If I went into a meeting of the Flat Earth Society and told them the Earth was round no one would agree with me, but it wouldn't vhange the facts.

First of all The virtual reality training similator in no way have anything to do with summons.

Second of all, the quote never claimed that Bahamut Sin was the only summon capable of causing damage to the real world, Shadow Creepers proves that as well.

Thirdly the quote never claimed that all or even most of summons brought their target into their own unique space, infact we only see a few in the entire compilation, again, illusions were never heard of, proved, or even mentioned in the entire series.

So you're willing to say that all the other summons in FF7 are wrong, because the latest game has one summon that appears to be different?

For someone who claims to stand with logic that looks bad.

Evil, look up the term retcon. The latest addition to a series is canon, anything before it that contradicts it ceases to be canon.

Look up the term exception -.-'

Every other summon from every other Final Fantasy game doesn't shown for you're claim to be true. Go figure.

There's no such thing as an exception to a retcon, once the new version comes out, its the canon version unless explicitly stated other as in the SW Infinities titles.

Ifrit, and all of the Bahamuts don't look like they pull the illusion/own space thing in FF VII, and they clearly do in Crisis Core, the CCCG says many of them do it in FF VII despite us only seeing KotR do it in that game. Its been retconned, there's really no way around it.