Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

http://www.capcom.co.jp/devil4/images/character/cg_dante.jpg

and

http://www.unlimitedgamer.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/devil-may-cry-4-art-nero-02.jpg

vs.

http://www.squareuniverse.net/downloads/wallpaper_winampskins/kh/kh-art007.jpeg

and

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg62/YamiNoRei/Final%20Fantasy%20VII/Zack/image72.png

Who wins?

Wow, Dante looks like Kevin Ryman from Resident Evil Outbreak 1/2.

While I am of the opinion that team FF > team DMC in swordsmanship I believe Dante's healing factor is too much to handle. Unless of course we're taking materia into consideration which pretty much becomes another discussion.

So which is it?

Strict swordfight or an all out materia/demonic powers?

Nero is the weakest link here.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
While I am of the opinion that team FF > team DMC in swordsmanship I believe Dante's healing factor is too much to handle. Unless of course we're taking materia into consideration which pretty much becomes another discussion.

So which is it?

Strict swordfight or an all out materia/demonic powers?

All out.

Then I dunno because with materia Cloud becomes a beast.

Well if this is all out I don't see any thing stoppin Dante from usin Quicksilver and shootin Cloud and Zack in the head.

Zack is my new ace tho, he shouldn't have died, shoulda offed Clouds chump ass.

Originally posted by ThoraxeRMG
Wow, Dante looks like Kevin Ryman from Resident Evil Outbreak 1/2.

http://img102.exs.cx/img102/5262/kevin1rs.jpg

Gotta agree with that. If this is "all out," then Dante takes this via Quicksilver.

Originally posted by First_Tsurugi06
http://img102.exs.cx/img102/5262/kevin1rs.jpg

Ya'know, he kinda does...strange.

the DMC squad pwns

Yeah Dante shoots him in the head. Wait. no Soilder guys cna dodge auto machine guns, oh yeah, funny the things you ignore, opps i mean forget.

Time materia is hax. Cloud & Zack win.

The more I anaylyze Quick Silver. Im starting to think the preception of time slows down to Dante rather than give him a speed boost or makes everything slower.

Makes sense.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Yeah Dante shoots him in the head. Wait. no Soilder guys cna dodge auto machine guns, oh yeah, funny the things you ignore, opps i mean forget.

Time materia is hax. Cloud & Zack win.

Lol have u seen DF2?

Tifa has materia hax

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/32365.html

Time stop and Haste ftw

Thats why only elemental Materia should be used suched as, Fire, Thundar, Wind, Ice, Water, Earth. Some healings, and maybe darkness. other than that no other should be used in discussion

Originally posted by Terryc250
Lol have u seen DF2?

Tifa has materia hax

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/32365.html

Time stop and Haste ftw
Ok, wtf? Dead Fantasy is made by A FAN, it's not officially made by Square-Enix and can therefor not be taken seriously but as seen in gameplay and in that fanmade vid performing spells takes time to, well, perform whereas quicksilver can be activated pretty much instantly and whether it stops time or gives Dante a caffeine speedboost (but judging from the cutscene where he obtains it I'd say it stops time), wait, that wouldn't matter, his speed would be too much for them to handle.

Assuming they'd resort to this.

Can I see This cutscene in where he gains it. Because I been looking at all the footagnd hasnt seen much in where he stomps time

Then I suggest you stop looking at gameplay vids and start searching on youtube, k? And you can't STOMP time, I'm sorry, but you can't and why would you want to stomp time? Wtf would that accomplish? haermm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItTtRm6sZks

shut up and you know damn well what i ment. and I have been looking on youtube for quicksilover. Not gametraillers.

With time materia this thread is a joke.

Without, Tsk, could go either way. I'd bet on Cloud and Zack purely because they have fought alongside each other a few times before.

Good use of the barrier materia would make the guns pointless, and as i said before. Zack as been shown to easily dodge bullets, Cloud has through FFVII so the guns don't seem all the useful anyway IMO.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Yeah Dante shoots him in the head. Wait. no Soilder guys cna dodge auto machine guns, oh yeah, funny the things you ignore, opps i mean forget.

Time materia is hax. Cloud & Zack win. He's usein Quick Silver...

And Clouds using the First Sword.

Big whoop ^^'

umm i dont see any good reason the ff team takes this i say cloud gets snatched up ala devil bringer dante shoots some 1in the face oh its zack snap u got 2 dead ff chars

If FF team gets all materia, then they can use timestop

Originally posted by Terryc250
If FF team gets all materia, then they can use timestop time stop has a casting start up that dante could easily use quiccsilver during and shoot them in the face

Did someone just use a Monty Oum video as evidence? I'm not surprised that it's Terry either.

I love how people assume "materia" FF characters are the shit, when there's been actual movies with them never using as fluid as one would believe. In the games they are used, they're quite slow to perform. With a sort of dance that needs to be done before it is cast. Then it hurts a bit more when time stop doesn't even work on powerful foes in their own series...

So no, time stop (which has been standard materia for FF characters since when?) is going to take a hell of a long time to cast compared to quicksilver.

And quicksilver is time slow, not time stop. Still great given that time slow is beneficial for Dante, with his speed. And going all out... he's in Devil mode. The boost. Oh the boost.

I did not post that video for the intention of it being "evidence", i posted it asking if anyone has seen it yet. Guns are nothing to Cloud and Zack, there is no "dance" (wtf) to perform when using materia, you just simply activate it.

Keollyn, you're confusing the casting animation in the game with a requirement for use of the materia. In FF Advent Children, it was shown clearly Materia doesn't require anything other than a little effort to use.

You're argument seems to be "Dante uses the imba gun Quick Silver to shoot them in the face"

It's so flawed i think you just need to be slapped for your ignorance. Now let me say this clearly:

Zack has been shown to dodge several elite marksman's auto machine guns bullets at the same time, then taking them all out.

Cloud, by defeating Sephiroth is suggested to have surpassed Zack. If without that, He has dodge countless shinra troops gunfire through the course of the FFVII game.


Grants QS is a special gun. But it's not that special.

Just a question. What materia's do cloud and zack canonically possessed?

ohhhhhhhhhh snap

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Keollyn, you're confusing the casting animation in the game with a requirement for use of the materia. In FF Advent Children, it was shown clearly Materia doesn't require anything other than a little effort to use.

No, I'm confusing the time they (as in Cloud or Zack) NEVER used materia in the movies that they appeared in, and instead, going by the ONLY time they did.

The game.

Where's your evidence? And oh, Loz is not another name for Cloud or Zack.



And I find your general post ignorant given that you got "gun" from my post... when "gun" never appears in my post.

If I recall, "Quicksilver", "Dante's speed", and "Devil boost" appears in there.

Yeah... reading... yeah...



Oh wow! Because bullet speed is new to Dante...



Oh wow! Because bullet speed is new to Dante...



Time slow > Zack and Cloud. Yeah...

P.S. Quicksilver isn't a gun. Clearly not on the level of high awareness are you?

Originally posted by Ivalice
Just a question. What materia's do cloud and zack canonically possessed?

Oh... burn!

Originally posted by Ivalice
Just a question. What materia's do cloud and zack canonically possessed?
It was never stated, but in AC; Cloud had a trunk load of materia that got stolen by the SHM.

Originally posted by Keollyn



Oh... burn! Sigh, I was asking that simply because they have yet to actually show them the using any materia (in any cutscene and in any movie)and the fact that i'm asking an ff7 fangirl(Evilangel) a simple question as she would likely(and not surprisingly) conjure up something absurd to try to back her claims.

Anyways you got her : http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8082/ownedtanksh6.jpg

So good job to that.

Originally posted by Terryc250
If FF team gets all materia, then they can use timestop
Did you NOT read my post? Geez.
Originally posted by Terryc250
It was never stated, but in AC; Cloud had a trunk load of materia that got stolen by the SHM.
Which means what? He never used any of them and why should we assume any timestopping materia is in there? I don't remember getting Stop or Stopga materia in my playthrough of the game, meaning he probably didn't obtain it canonically.

Also, @ Csabest: Your error, not mine and the M key isn't exactly close to the S, T, O or P keys.

Originally posted by Raijin
Did you NOT read my post? Geez.

Did you read mine? It said if the FF team gets all materia.

So we should assume all materia means zero materia?

Why would Yazoo and Loz be able to use Materia better than Cloud or Zack?
Give me an answer for that and i'll be impressed, since Cloud and Zack actually have experience using materia, unlike the other 2.


Which is invalid because Cloud and Zack also have time powers. However, Cloud and Zack can completely stop time for as long as they have magic, according to the game. So Dante and Nero are a bit screwed IMO.


Well, if you say so.


No, read above.

I know, i was in a rush to go so there's loads of typos if you read the post through. I meant to say it's a good combination.


Thread creator gave them materia. So no burn. Just the swatting of ignorant fanboys across the desk really.

As it stands Cloud and Zack have:

- Time powers
- Barriers
- Summons
- Elemental powers
- Chaos powers (tornado's, meteorites etc)
- Healing powers
- Materia that increase their physical power (Speed plus materia, Pre emptive, etc)
- Manipulate materia, aka enemy control.


How the hell do they win?

Yes, I'm a fangirl for presenting an opinion that differs to your own, flawless logic that one.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Why would Yazoo and Loz be able to use Materia better than Cloud or Zack?
Give me an answer for that and i'll be impressed, since Cloud and Zack actually have experience using materia, unlike the other 2. Really? Link me to a canon cutscene which shows cloud actually using materia other than gameplay mechanics.

Originally posted by EvilAngel


Which is invalid because Cloud and Zack also have time powers.
Quantify and substantiate this. Also find me an actual source which states or depict either of them using materia other than pure gameplay mechanics which would be considered N-canon unless shown in a cut scene.

So that and ill concede.
Originally posted by EvilAngel

However, Cloud and Zack can completely stop time for as long as they have magic, according to the game. So Dante and Nero are a bit screwed in my fallible and unsupported opinion. See the above. By logic if either had stop time abilities, why did cloud never bother to stop time during ANY of his duels with sephiroth?




Originally posted by EvilAngel

Thread creator gave them materia. So no burn. Just the swatting of ignorant fanboys across the desk really.
See the below.

Originally posted by Sol Valentine
http://www.capcom.co.jp/devil4/images/character/cg_dante.jpg

and

http://www.unlimitedgamer.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/devil-may-cry-4-art-nero-02.jpg

vs.

http://www.squareuniverse.net/downloads/wallpaper_winampskins/kh/kh-art007.jpeg

and

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg62/YamiNoRei/Final%20Fantasy%20VII/Zack/image72.png

Who wins?

Daaammmmm! you have reading disabilities. Where exactly did he give them both materia?



Originally posted by Sol Valentine

As it stands Cloud and Zack have:

- Time powers
- Barriers
- Summons
- Elemental powers
- Chaos powers (tornado's, meteorites etc)
- Healing powers
- Materia that increase their physical power (Speed plus materia, Pre emptive, etc)
- Manipulate materia, aka enemy control. And the funny thing is that neither of them(especially cloud for that matter) has not demonstrated ANY of the above powers mentioned in ANY cutscenes save for pure gameplay which you have the privilage of customising.

Even
Terryc250 could do a better job of convincing me that cloud does have some materia(though it is unknown what materias were in that box) whereas you on the other hand are listing down feats which the either of the duo has yet to demonstrate.





Originally posted by Sol Valentine

Yes, I'm a fangirl for presenting an opinion that differs to your own, flawless logic that one. From presenting an opinion which is highly fallacious and unsupported which is a very common aspect of fanboy/fangirlism.

Now you have yet to answer a question i have asked :
Originally posted by Ivalice
Just a question. What materia's do cloud and zack canonically possess?

Originally posted by Ivalice
Really? Link me to a canon cutscene which shows cloud actually using materia other than gameplay mechanics.

*Yawns* see last response in this post

Originally posted by Ivalice
Quantify and substantiate this. Also find me an actual source which states or depict either of them using materia other than pure gameplay mechanics which would be considered N-canon unless shown in a cut scene.

So that and ill concede.

Again, look to last response.


Originally posted by Ivalice
See the above. By logic if either had stop time abilities, why did cloud never bother to stop time during ANY of his duels with sephiroth? Well how about, he never had slow time in any of his duels with Sephiroth

1st Duel, he was a grunt for Shinra, they don't get materia

2nd Duel, Cloud uses Omnislash and that's it

3rd Duel, Loz stole all the materia.







Originally posted by Ivalice
Daaammmmm! you have reading disabilities. Where exactly did he give them both materia? No, learn to read past the 1st post.



Originally posted by Ivalice
From presenting an opinion which is highly fallacious and unsupported which is a very common aspect of fanboy/fangirlism.

Now you have yet to answer a question i have asked :

Since this is a debate of opinion, which by definition cannot be right or wrong, both given things are matter of opinion. Therefore you're just plain insulting me. Now i don't really have a choice but to report that aggressive attitude you have in this civil debate.


Originally posted by Superboy Prime
While I am of the opinion that team FF > team DMC in swordsmanship I believe Dante's healing factor is too much to handle. Unless of course we're taking materia into consideration which pretty much becomes another discussion.

So which is it?

Strict swordfight or an all out materia/demonic powers?

Originally posted by Sol Valentine
All out.

Thread creators rules. All materia.

"Not done in cutscene therefore none cannon" that's the "If i can't see it, it's not there" approach, something a child tells themselves.

It's in the forums rules, if the thread creator puts forth a certain rule, it has to be taken into account. Sol says all out on the materia front.

So as for you're feeble attempts to disallow Materia, do better.

Ivalice, the battles go by the thread creator's rules, and Sol said all out on Materia. Maybe not in the first post, but it counts.

You will also refrain from your insults.

Originally posted by EvilAngel



Well how about, he never had slow time in any of his duels with Sephiroth
Well how about, he never it in the first place nor did he ever had the materia in posession.
Originally posted by EvilAngel

1st Duel, he was a grunt for Shinra, they don't get materia Ok.








Originally posted by EvilAngel

No, learn to read past the 1st post. You mean all out?

Uhm all out could specifically mean all out with powers and feats that they canonically posses just as it is in the SWV hence why i asked(and you have yet to answer) you to list down the materia cloud canonically has.


Versus matches are based on facts and feats done by characters even if it is an "all out fight".

Originally posted by EvilAngel

Since this is a debate of opinion, which by definition cannot be right or wrong, both given things are matter of opinion.
Lol? Cannot be right or wrong? How can "R2d2 can destroy emperor palpatine" be not wrong?

I guess going by your logic, MY opinion that a single infantry soldier form IRAQ can wipe out the ENTIRE united states military with a WW1 rifle. But hey! its neither right nor wrong when its painfully obvious that the iraqi wouldn't be even able to fire his rifle before getting shot down by a US sniper.

See how your logic fails?

Originally posted by EvilAngel

Therefore you're just plain insulting me.
Uh quote me where i insulted you. I merely stated your opinions are fallible(as usual but thats nothing new eh?) Yes i was being aggressive but again, where exactly did i throw an insult at you like i did the last time?
Originally posted by EvilAngel

Now i don't really have a choice but to report that aggressive attitude you have in this civil debate. Lol don't have a choice. The thing is you DO have a choice.

You could have ignored it which you were so fond of in the past but only this time i did not throw a direct insult.
But you chose to be petty rather than handle the situation yourself.





Originally posted by EvilAngel

Thread creators rules. All materia. He said all out correct, but where exactly was "All materia" stated?

"All materia" could also mean materia that both cloud and zack canonically posses which also means hey had at least demonstrated it once hence why i asked if any of them demonstrated it once in a cutscene which would mean that they canonically have that materia.



Originally posted by EvilAngel

"Not done in cutscene therefore none cannon" that's the "If i can't see it, it's not there" approach, something a child tells themselves.
LOL something a child themselves?

Then i guess its safe to assume(by your logic which i have been fond of always pointing out) darth vader has lightning even though he NEVER demonstrated it once in the entire SW saga.

But hey he DOES have lightning right?!?!?!?! Because only a child who says "He never demonstrated it = he does not have it" tells that to himself.

I also guess its safe to assume that tifa can perform meteor or holy when the very fact that she has never been shown in a cutscene to even use the materias or even hinted at having the said materia.

Seriously EvilAngel, i am not trying to be mean or trying to insult you or anything. But i really think its a good idea you quit attempting to debate, hell you don't even know the defination of canon hence which is why i brought up "the cutscenes" issue.

You just fail to release that what ever is not performed unless stated elsewhere in a cutscene is NOT canon which means it CANNOT be used in a debate EVEN if the thread starter stated all out(which again means going all out with the materia they canonically posses.
Originally posted by EvilAngel

It's in the forums rules, if the thread creator puts forth a certain rule, it has to be taken into account. Sol says all out on the materia front. And all out could mean the feats and powers they canonically posses.

If i said "Oh darth nihilus vs sephiroth all out" i can't just lay down the rules that "Oh darth nihilus has the force storm ability in this match" when it has never been stated or shown anywhere that nihilus actually had nor used the ability.
Originally posted by EvilAngel

So as for you're feeble attempts to disallow Materia, do better. I never disallowed materia, i only disallow the ones you have failed to prove that cloud has canonically.

Unless the thread maker specifically said "all materia" rather than "all out". I'll drop the whole issue. Oh and please refrain from telling me that "All out = all materia" when logic points out that all out could even mean powers that he canonically has.

*Waits for the next ridiculous response*

Originally posted by General Kaliero
Ivalice, the battles go by the thread creator's rules, and Sol said all out on Materia. Maybe not in the first post, but it counts.

You will also refrain from your insults. Ok.

How can peeps argue against Dante and his Quick Silver style and at the same time not know what QuickSilver is?

Seems kinda ridiculous...

BAH screw the debate, i guess ill just read properly before making rash statements and not be so ignorant next time. You have my sincere apologies EvilAngel.

Regarding the "Not shown in cutscene = non canon thing" ill explain it to you nicely and civily next time.

If a moderator reads this post please erase my "rebuttal" up a few posts.

Anyways already made a request to get it remoced

The only Materia Cloud shoud canocally have is The ones he started off with and the one in the sephiroth and Cloud team up aginst the dragon. Other than that no other should be used.

Originally posted by Csdabest
The only Materia Cloud shoud canocally have is The ones he started off with and the one in the sephiroth and Cloud team up aginst the dragon. Other than that no other should be used.
What Materia "should" or "should not" be used is entirely up to the thread creator, in this case, Sol Valentine. He said "all out", which would logically mean any Materia available.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
What Materia "should" or "should not" be used is entirely up to the thread creator, in this case, Sol Valentine. He said "all out", which would logically mean any Materia available.

It's under that assumption i have based all of my points.

Thank you for the apology Ivalice, however next time please do read through all the rules given by the thread creator before dubbing me a fangirl. It really demoralises bothering to debate.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Why would Yazoo and Loz be able to use Materia better than Cloud or Zack?

Because they are apart of Sephiroth... who, by the way he's herald around here, quite skilled in ALL ASPECTS. Cloud is a swordsman, and Zack is a swordsman. The fact that they don't use materia kinda tells you that they're not very proficient with it.



Where is this experience with materia at?



He does?



You do know that stop materia fails in the game, right?

You do know that Quicksilver, or the even more potent, Chrono Heart doesn't?

Yeah, I can see which one is better...


You're not even quoting anything... what are you responding to?



No, see above.



No, see above.



And therefore Dante gets everything too. Chrono Heart and DDT annihilates Cloud and Zack


This would mean much if they can cast all but one at a time... and not to mention how slow they cast it. Chrono Heart stops them before they can even put their sword away to cast



Who?

I can tell you one thing... it isn't Cloud and Zack.




At least you admit it.

Edit: Rereading over things and...

You gotta be shittin me. People (namely Evilfangirl) is getting all materia from "All out"? The holy hell?

As Ivalice has been saying.. what canon materia does Cloud and Zack have, because that's all they're using here.

Originally posted by Keollyn
As Ivalice has been saying.. what canon materia does Cloud and Zack have, because that's all they're using here.
Ivalice made a mistake, and admitted to it. Sol Valentine's understood intent was "all Materia."

Originally posted by Ivalice
BAH screw the debate, i guess ill just read properly before making rash statements and not be so ignorant next time. You have my sincere apologies EvilAngel.

Regarding the "Not shown in cutscene = non canon thing" ill explain it to you nicely and civily next time.

If a moderator reads this post please erase my "rebuttal" up a few posts.

Anyways already made a request to get it remoced

Sorry, but posts don't get removed unless they're breaking some sort of rule.

Originally posted by Keollyn
At least you admit it.

Edit: Rereading over things and...

You gotta be shittin me. People (namely Evilfangirl) is getting all materia from "All out"? The holy hell?

Evilfangirl?

You know what. You just lost the right to debate with me.

/ignore



It's one thing being unable to deal with being wrong. It's another to turn it into snide remarks in your posts, which i really don't appreciate.

I've already been shot at in this thread. It's just not worth it.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
Ivalice made a mistake, and admitted to it. Sol Valentine's understood intent was "all Materia."

Direct quote please. Because it isn't in his first post, nor it is in the post he said "All out" on.

All out =/= all materia.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Evilfangirl?

You know what. You just lost the right to debate with me.

/ignore



It's one thing being unable to deal with being wrong. It's another to turn it into snide remarks in your posts, which i really don't appreciate.

I've already been shot at in this thread. It's just not worth it.

Concession accepted. Have a nice day.

Originally posted by Keollyn
Direct quote please. Because it isn't in his first post, nor it is in the post he said "All out" on.

All out =/= all materia.


Read more carefully, then.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
So which is it?

Strict swordfight or an all out materia/demonic powers?

Originally posted by Sol Valentine
All out.

Which again doesn't say all materia. It is merely saying the use of materia. That word "out" (especially in between "all" and "materia" is the real kicker.

Originally posted by Keollyn
Which again doesn't say all materia. It is merely saying the use of materia. That word "out" (especially in between "all" and "materia" is the real kicker.

I'm pretty sure most people would translate "all out materia" into "all materia and then some".

So logically what does "All out materia" mean then? If i were to normally read it, it would mean all materia available to use IMO.

Including meteor and holy? Or just materia they canonically possess? Not trying to be a jackass here but just making sure.

Originally posted by Keollyn
Concession accepted. Have a nice day.

Psh, keep dreamin

Originally posted by Ivalice
Including meteor and holy? Or just materia they canonically possess? Not trying to be a jackass here but just making sure.

Both of those take time to come into effect. And I'm pretty such they both require special locations.

To my memory, Black materia can only be used when there's lots of Lifestream/materia around, and Holy you have to be "Close to the planet"

That's if my memory serves right


Based on that even if they do have both, it won't make any difference IMO.

This Keollyn fellow appears to be an ass hole. mmm

I gotta go with Dante and Nero on this fight.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
This Keollyn fellow appears to be an ass hole. mmm

Co-signed

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
This Keollyn fellow appears to be an ass hole. mmm

I gotta go with Dante and Nero on this fight.
As a mod, I think I'm supposed to tell you you shouldn't say things like that.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
As a mod, I think I'm supposed to tell you you shouldn't say things like that.

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
This Keollyn fellow appears to be an ass hole. mmm

I gotta go with Dante and Nero on this fight.

Shhh, don't let that non-secret out.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Including meteor and holy? Or just materia they canonically possess? Not trying to be a jackass here but just making sure.

Most likely not meteor and holy, since i dont think Cloud and Zack can use them on the fly anyway, we don't know what materia they canonically possess.. but if its all materia, then its ALL materia, meaning every useable materia throughout the game.

Dante alone can take this. Better speed feats, such as catching up with his sword after it was propelled by a bullet.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Most likely not meteor and holy, since i dont think Cloud and Zack can use them on the fly anyway, we don't know what materia they canonically possess.. but if its all materia, then its ALL materia, meaning every useable materia throughout the game. If you say so then.