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http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/item/2000/1468/138968-doctor-doom_400.jpg vs http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/item/8000/7612/128594-apocalypse_400.jpg

Doom wins.

Apocalypse is a stronger magician 313

Doom

Apocalypse

stop hotlinking. weegee

LIEEEEEEEEFEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLDDDDDDDD

Originally posted by grey fox
LIEEEEEEEEFEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLDDDDDDDD

Where?

why is doom sucking in his gut?

How would Doom beat Apoc?

In a straight, unprepped, 1 on 1, spontaneous fight Apocalypse should be able to overwhelm Doom assuming Doom is wearing his standard gear. Give Doom... hell 10 minutes of prep to grab some more specialized equipment he has laying around and its another story.

Apocalypse >>>>>>>>>>> Doom in any type of typical skirmish.

Give Dr. Doom some prep time (or even both equal amounts) and I guarantee that Dr. Doom would utterly pwn Apoc 10/10.

Agreed, Apocalypse tends to need years of prep, and even then it rarely turns out the way he wants it to.

Apocalypse will win. If the two fight without any prep, the winner is Apocalypse. If Doom gets prep, so should En Sabah Nur.
Therefore, Apocalypse wins in both scenarios.

Hmm, how would Apoc over come Dooms magic?

Originally posted by Priest
Hmm, how would Apoc over come Dooms magic?
And how would Doom come over Celestial tech?
And who says Apocalypse can't dodge?

Originally posted by Priest
Hmm, how would Apoc over come Dooms magic?

With his own 313

When has Apocalypse used magic exactly? As far as Doom's magic, its more prep based. You dont often see him leave the house and just decide to start flinging spells. Maybe he could, but he hasnt shown it. Matter of fact when stripped naked, Dr. Doom killed a lion with his bare hands, rather than use any spells.

Did you even read the latest Mighty Avengers arc?

---

Doom wins.

Am I the only one who sees this as a joke thread?

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist

Am I the only one who sees this as a joke thread?
Yea

Originally posted by redhotrash
When has Apocalypse used magic exactly? As far as Doom's magic, its more prep based. You dont often see him leave the house and just decide to start flinging spells. Maybe he could, but he hasnt shown it. Matter of fact when stripped naked, Dr. Doom killed a lion with his bare hands, rather than use any spells.

Yea, you haven't read anything recent with Doom, have you?

If they just bumped into each other out of nowhere, as much as I want to say Doom,,,,I cant. Apocalypse would probably take this.

There is nothing that APOC has that DOOM hasn't seen a 1000x, APOC can't say the same. Doom 10/10 prep/or no prep makes no difference.

I think Apocalypse takes doom down pretty hard.

I gave up on Mighty Avengers when it became clear the writers didnt know wtf they were doing. Through the bulk of Doom's career he has never relied heavily on magic. And regardless, if we are talking a non-jobbing Apocalypse, he should win. Apocalypse isnt meant to be harmed through convential means (physical blows, energy blasts). People seem to forget he has total control over his body's molecular structure, has telepathic abilities, and has celestial tech.
Like I said, give Doom a few minutes of prep to get his proper gear and he wins, wearing his standard armor he shouldnt be able to beat Apocalypse

Originally posted by BatmanOfGotham
And how would Doom come over Celestial tech?
The same way everyone else does.

Granted Apocalypse has some bad showings but when you get down to the grassroots of what his powers are supposed to be and go off that, he is well above Doom.

Originally posted by redhotrash
In a straight, unprepped, 1 on 1, spontaneous fight Apocalypse should be able to overwhelm Doom assuming Doom is wearing his standard gear. Give Doom... hell 10 minutes of prep to grab some more specialized equipment he has laying around and its another story.

Co-signed!

Apocalypse is a genius in all, but it seems more in the field of general Intelligence rather than actually implementing an ingenious plan/strategy.

Normally Apoc is more powerful than Dr Doom however DD relies more on his Mind than Apocalypse does, and has proved far more adept at accomplishing his goals.

non-prep Apoc wins 8.5/10

w/ prep "The Good Doctor" takes 9.9/10


PS- I think DD would use Celestial Tech a lot more effectively than Apoc.

Doom would definately do more with celestial tech, and hes a better loser than Apocalypse. When Doom spends maybe 6 months on a plan that nearly takes over the world but fails when the entire Avengers roster gets involved, he just pulls a Dr. Claw "NEXT TIME!" and chaulks it up as a loss and moves on. Apocalypse will spend 300+ years on a plan just to be foiled by teenaged mutants and will try to save face claiming it was all intentional (yeah.. right).
Either way Apocalypse suffers from a terrible case of misuse. The guy is class 100 strength, can grow to enormous sizes, can form his limbs into all sorts of weapons, has telepathy, alien technology, can teleport, etc etc, but KMC'ers still put in him fights against streetlevelers. Apocalypse should be a team buster. Again, blame Marvel.

Fairly certain this has been done. Nevertheless,

Originally posted by Mr Marvel
Co-signed!

Apocalypse is a genius in all, but it seems more in the field of general Intelligence rather than actually implementing an ingenious plan/strategy.

Normally Apoc is more powerful than Dr Doom however DD relies more on his Mind than Apocalypse does, and has proved far more adept at accomplishing his goals.

non-prep Apoc wins 8.5/10

w/ prep "The Good Doctor" takes 9.9/10


PS- I think DD would use Celestial Tech a lot more effectively than Apoc.

This seems to be accurate.

Originally posted by Mr Marvel
Apocalypse is a genius in all, but it seems more in the field of general Intelligence rather than actually implementing an ingenious plan/strategy.

Well, he's suppose to be a "master strategist in combat"... according to the handbooks.

Originally posted by Mr Marvel
Normally Apoc is more powerful than Dr Doom however DD relies more on his Mind than Apocalypse does, and has proved far more adept at accomplishing his goals.

Untrue.


I think the only time Apoc's goals have REALLY failed was in the BoA arc

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
The same way everyone else does.

You mean like how people claim that Apoc gets coffee tables thrown at him in every issue?

Originally posted by redhotrash
When Doom spends maybe 6 months on a plan that nearly takes over the world but fails when the entire Avengers roster gets involved, he just pulls a Dr. Claw "NEXT TIME!" and chaulks it up as a loss and moves on.

Doesn't Doom job to the Fantastic Four?


Why hasn't he killed them again?

Originally posted by redhotrash
Apocalypse will spend 300+ years on a plan just to be foiled by teenaged mutants and will try to save face claiming it was all intentional (yeah.. right).

I'm not sure why people have been bringing up prep....there's no prep

Apocalypse trashes Doom without prep. I am also not too sure that Doom even with prep could have faught High Evolutionary as well as Nur did.

how come these two never met on panel before, or did I miss that?

Originally posted by psycho gundam
how come these two never met on panel before, or did I miss that? too much ego to put in one storyline

Originally posted by Master-Borg
too much ego to put in one storyline yeah, your right about that.

the dialog would be great though, apocalypse has a way of humbling the best of the best just by speaking but on the flip side, doom believes he is superior to all minds on earth.

If marvel wants my money again they should make it happen.

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
Well, he's suppose to be a "master strategist in combat"... according to the handbooks.



Untrue.


I think the only time Apoc's goals have REALLY failed was in the BoA arc



You mean like how people claim that Apoc gets coffee tables thrown at him in every issue?



Doesn't Doom job to the Fantastic Four?


Why hasn't he killed them again?


Doom vs the Fantastic four is different. Your talking about a team with a member who can match Doom in intelligence. Not one member of the X-men should be smart enough to take on Apocalypse but it happens alot. Lets be real the x-men are a great team but the pinnacle of intelligence they are not.
Doom wins against 616 Apocalypse. Even without prep he always has weapons and abilities that make him dangerous. Even the last issue of Mighty is testament to that.

with no prep,apoc comfortably

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Your talking about a team with a member who can match Doom in intelligence.

Apocalypse is up there with pure inteligence with Doom and Richards. It's only that Marvel writes him bad in all departments.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Apocalypse is up there with pure inteligence with Doom and Richards. It's only that Marvel writes him bad in all departments. Apoc is not comparable in intelligence to Reeds. Reed humiliates him in the IQ department.

without prep, apocalypse make short work of doom, after all apocalypse is an amalgam of hulk, martian manhunter, and doom himself(imo) (just written to plague humanity forever, he isn't ALLOWED to win)

Ummm, he may be an amalgam of them, but only with a small portion of what each is capable of.

on an paper amalgam then

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Doom vs the Fantastic four is different. Your talking about a team with a member who can match Doom in intelligence.

Doom claims to be smarter. crackers

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Not one member of the X-men should be smart enough to take on Apocalypse but it happens alot. Lets be real the x-men are a great team but the pinnacle of intelligence they are not.

Happens a lot? When has Apoc been outsmarted by the X-Men?

As far as I can recall, Apocalypse was defeated when Cyclops "Drew upon the strength of the Grey lineage" which is as PIS as it can get.

And he was killed by the Psimitar after his psychic essence had been separated from Cyclops' body? Another plot weapon.

And recently he was beaten thanks to Pulse further depowering an Apocalypse that had already drained enough blood from himself to fill several huge tanks.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
Apoc is not comparable in intelligence to Reeds. Reed humiliates him in the IQ department.

He surely is comparable.

Originally posted by llagrok
As far as I can recall, Apocalypse was defeated when Cyclops "Drew upon the strength of the Grey lineage" which is as PIS as it can get.

And he was killed by the Psimitar after his psychic essence had been separated from Cyclops' body? Another plot weapon.

And recently he was beaten thanks to Pulse further depowering an Apocalypse that had already drained enough blood from himself to fill several huge tanks.

So you're trying to say Apoc should win, right?

I wouldn't doubt for a second that Doom could take 3 or 4/10, but with no time to prepare for this battle I believe Apocalypse has the power to win the majority, if written properly.

Originally posted by nimbus006
So you're trying to say Apoc should win, right?

No no, just that the methods the x-men have used to beat him won't hold on KMC.

There's no psimitar, no summers/grey bloodline and Apocalypse hasn't been drained of blood.

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
Doom claims to be smarter. crackers



Happens a lot? When has Apoc been outsmarted by the X-Men? Not really outsmarted just beaten.
A. AOA just attack his and hes defeated
B. BOA Attack him
C. Stryfe loss
Each time hes beaten, he just looses. They have no plan at all. For a prep guy direct physical confrontation should already have a counter. As far as a him being as smart as reed? "Hell No".

Doom usually has access to magic, and his doom bots via his suite.

Originally posted by Xplosive
He surely is comparable.

No

Originally posted by llagrok
No no, just that the methods the x-men have used to beat him won't hold on KMC.


Yea, I completely agree.

Originally posted by Mindset
No

Yes.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Yes.

Nope

Originally posted by Xplosive
Yes. Reed's defeated Galactus...what has Apoc ever achieved?

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Not really outsmarted just beaten.

A. AOA just attack his and hes defeated

Alternative reality. Doesn't count.

I also believe AoA Doom couldn't beat AoA Apoc...

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
C. Stryfe loss

Apoc was weakened.

And you know why Stryfe even attacked Apoc?

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/NM95/X-MenVol2015-18.jpg

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Each time hes beaten, he just looses. They have no plan at all.

Wrong. In BoA, the X-Men had a plan to defeat Apoc.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
Reed's defeated Galactus...what has Apoc ever achieved?

You mean when the Watcher helped Human Torch steal the Ultimate Nullifier...?

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
Alternative reality. Doesn't count.

I also believe AoA Doom couldn't beat AoA Apoc...



Apoc was weakened.

And you know why Stryfe even attacked Apoc?

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/NM95/X-MenVol2015-18.jpg



Wrong. In BoA, the X-Men had a plan to defeat Apoc. You mean storm the pyramid. Since when is that a plan. His whole plan during BOA was terrible. His plan with Onslaught was bad as well and didn't work. Hes no where near on an equal field of intellect as Doom who even Thanos acknowledges as a big threat.

Won't Doom's magical ability play a factor in this fight also? Does Apocalyspe have any defense against magic?

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
You mean storm the pyramid. Since when is that a plan.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/NM95/XMEN186defeatapoc.png

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
His whole plan during BOA was terrible.

Apocalypse's basic plan - wipe out 90% of the human race to symbolically level the playing field for mutants - is absurd, yes.

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
His plan with Onslaught was bad as well and didn't work.

It didn't work because of Invisible Woman.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
Reed's defeated Galactus...what has Apoc ever achieved?

Apocalypse went toe to toe against High Evolutionary, actually got the better of him, schooled him and than you say Apocalypse intelligence is not even comparable to Reed Richards. Everything Richards can comprehend, I don't see why Apocalypse wouldn't. He would.
It's been said Richards cannot close comprehend Galactus technology, Apocalypse has good knowledge of Celestial technology and understands it, what he got. Look what he also made of Hulk (Reed couldn't even came up with something to stop World War Hulk and not even WWH couldn't do to Juggernaut what War Hulk did).
We know Apocalypse isn't close written in all departments as what he is capable and what he has.
Originally, he was the one to conquer and rule the Earth. Remember what Cable said to Thor and others. He said they don't even realize the threat of Apocalypse. Apocalypse made like they never even existed.
And if you remember, genius Kang the Conqueror (Nathaniel Richards) among all other Earth powerful beings, went after Apocalypse (because Apocalypse ruled the Earth) and failed with all his smartness and future technology to get him.
And are Celestials really so much below Galactus?
Don't tell me he can't even compare to Reed. It's the writing that can't compare because of Reed being generally much better written than Apocalypse and also being constant in writing.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Apocalypse went toe to toe against High Evolutionary, actually got the better of him, schooled him and than you say Apocalypse intelligence is not even comparable to Reed Richards. Everything Richards can comprehend, I don't see why Apocalypse wouldn't. He would.
It's been said Richards cannot close comprehend Galactus technology, Apocalypse has good knowledge of Celestial technology and understands it, what he got. Look what he also made of Hulk (Reed couldn't even came up with something to stop World War Hulk and not even WWH couldn't do to Juggernaut what War Hulk did).
We know Apocalypse isn't close written in all departments as what he is capable and what he has.
Originally, he was the one to conquer and rule the Earth. Remember what Cable said to Thor and others. He said they don't even realize the threat of Apocalypse. Apocalypse made like they never even existed.
And if you remember, genius Kang the Conqueror (Nathaniel Richards) among all other Earth powerful beings, went after Apocalypse (because Apocalypse ruled the Earth) and failed with all his smartness and future technology to get him.
And are Celestials really so much below Galactus?
Don't tell me he can't even compare to Reed. It's the writing that can't compare because of Reed being generally much better written than Apocalypse and also being constant in writing. I 100% agree with this. apocalypse was, is, and will always be the greatest threat to humanity.

people keep mentioning dooms magic,apoc coped okay against loki's magic.and dooms tech/armour would be nothing for apoc to overcome due to his celestial tech and techno-path abilities.

Doom easy

He has beaten better men with less.

For a guy the time and resources that he had Apocalypse is a pretty big disapointment . The guy had 1000s of years to work wirk with and Celestial tech and he still failed.

Doom is a mrtal man with only his intellect magic and guts to back him up and he did much much better then apocalypse ever did.

Originally posted by godking
Doom easy

He has beaten better men with less.

For a guy the time and resources that he had Apocalypse is a pretty big disapointment . The guy had 1000s of years to work wirk with and Celestial tech and he still failed.

Doom is a mrtal man with only his intellect magic and guts to back him up and he did much much better then apocalypse ever did.

Explain to me, what are Apocalypse's ambitions?

Originally posted by llagrok
Explain to me, what are Apocalypse's ambitions?


To talk a big game but, never ever accomplish anything with 1000's of years to attempt to do it.

Originally posted by The Illuminati
To talk a big game but, never ever accomplish anything with 1000's of years to attempt to do it.




Attempt... to accomplish... what?

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/NM95/XMEN186defeatapoc.png






That plan is akin to
Fantastic four vs Doom
Mr Fantastic stretch
invisible woman uses a force bubble.
Thing use superstrength and johhny roast.
if all there doing is using their powers to storm the pyramid and attack apocalypse. Thats not a plan thats storming the pyramid to use their mutant powers on Apocalypse and thats a plan beneath the likes of even Spiderman. I mena seriously I wonder if the avengers will run straight in and battle the villian in the next issue, sounds like a plan.


The worst part was that he announced on television his plan knowing they would storm his pyramid afterword. What countermeasures does he have for this
"Gambit" and a bomb.

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
Attempt... to accomplish... what? Thats by biggest gripe with Apocalypse, whats his biggest accomplishment-AOA and even then he didn't set that into motion.

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
That plan is akin to
Fantastic four vs Doom.

No, it's more like Lex Luthor using a ray gun that projects red sunlight on Superman while a bunch of normal thugs beats the crap out of him.

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
if all there doing is using their powers to storm the pyramid and attack apocalypse. Thats not a plan thats storming the pyramid to use their mutant powers on Apocalypse and thats a plan beneath the likes of even Spiderman. I mena seriously I wonder if the avengers will run straight in and battle the villian in the next issue, sounds like a plan.



Originally posted by HueyFreeman
The worst part was that he announced on television his plan knowing they would storm his pyramid afterword. What countermeasures does he have for this
"Gambit" and a bomb.

You mean like someone wouldn't notice a huge f*cking pyramid floating around?

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Thats by biggest gripe with Apocalypse, whats his biggest accomplishment

Villains doesn't accomplish squat.

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
AOA and even then he didn't set that into motion.

What are you talking about?

How does Doom beat Apoc?

Apoc is stronger

Apoc is more durable

Apoc is more versatile

I guess Doom is smarter and has some magic abilities?

Originally posted by Master-Borg
How does Doom beat Apoc?

Apoc is stronger

Apoc is more durable

Apoc is more versatile

I guess Doom is smarter and has some magic abilities? Great logic... Apoc would beat Dr Strange as well.
Hell, throw Ancient One in there, and Apoc would surely hand him his ass.

---

And as smart as Doom? Really? Are you kidding me?
Has anyone seen what Doom has done, when they make this claim?
Or are they like me when I first came on this forum, and thought he was just a man in a metal suit... and Iron Man would kill him?

Because it seems to me...

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
Great logic... Apoc would beat Dr Strange as well.
Hell, throw Ancient One in there, and Apoc would surely hand him his ass.

---

And as smart as Doom? Really? Are you kidding me?
Has anyone seen what Doom has done, when they make this claim? please, Doom's magic abilities is like finger painting compared to Dr. Strange.

also, I said Doom is smarter

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
Villains doesn't accomplish squat.



What are you talking about? Legion was responsible for the AOA not Apocalypse just like wanda being responsible for the House of M and not Magneto. Doom has accompled much ranging from SS-Galactus-Beyonder. Apocalypse height is Loki and even then he didn't really win. So yes many villians do accomplish something its just Poccy who doesn't.

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
No, it's more like Lex Luthor using a ray gun that projects red sunlight on Superman while a bunch of normal thugs beats the crap out of him.







You mean like someone wouldn't notice a huge f*cking pyramid floating around? Thats the problem, what was his plan. Kill the majority of the population but wait in a huge pyramid without counter measures for any of the teams but a cliche bomb . Thats it. Thats not a plan, thats waiting for an ass-beating. Doom always has a plan whether its political, magical, or otherwise. To even put their intelligence in the same league is a little ridiculous.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
please, Doom's magic abilities is like finger painting compared to Dr. Strange.

also, I said Doom is smarter He learned everything he could from Strange in two weeks. He's also grown more powerful, and more powerful over the years. Not saying he's Strange level (although he'd fukken own current), but he's not what you're saying... not even close.

Plus, I never said anything about any power levels. You're logic is that:

Apoc is stronger - well, Doom is way closer to Apoc's strength, than Strange is (although, I feel I have to say that he's not close... because I can see you misinterpreting what I'm throwing down).

Apoc is more durable - Doom is closer than Apoc's durability, than Strange is.

Apoc is more versatile - This isn't even correct... but, I guess he's more versatile than Strange as well...

Using your incredibly awesomtastic logic. Doom would stand a better chance against Apoc, than Strange would. As you only picked elements of fighting that you feel would win Apoc the fight. You never said anything about magic abilities. You never said anything about blasting power. You never said anything about effectiveness... etc.

Doom whips out his anti-matter canon, and blows Apoc out of the fight.



Was that part addressed to you? I thought I made it clear when I cut off that part from the part I actually quoted of your awesome post. Ah... C?

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
No, it's more like Lex Luthor using a ray gun that projects red sunlight on Superman while a bunch of normal thugs beats the crap out of him.



And thats not the work of a genius either. An idiot could come up with the idea of using red sun against superman which is my point entirely. The plan that stopped him in BOA is something Deadpool could probably come up with.

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Legion was responsible for the AOA not Apocalypse just like wanda being responsible for the House of M and not Magneto.

Not... really.

Legion kills Xavier. Apoc awakes from his sleep earlier than he did in 616 and, well, conquers the world.


That reminds me of this video...


http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/257930


Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Doom has accompled much ranging from SS-Galactus-Beyonder. Apocalypse height is Loki and even then he didn't really win. So yes many villians do accomplish something its just Poccy who doesn't.

What the hell are you talking about.


Accomplishing WHAT?

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
And thats not the work of a genius either. An idiot could come up with the idea of using red sun against superman which is my point entirely. The plan that stopped him in BOA is something Deadpool could probably come up with.

Didn't the Mighty Avengers recently take down Doom by brute force?

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Thats the problem, what was his plan. Kill the majority of the population but wait in a huge pyramid without counter measures for any of the teams but a cliche bomb . Thats it. Thats not a plan, thats waiting for an ass-beating.

The Avengers were actually having trouble with Apoc's pyramid. And Cap said that they could wait a couple of days for the Fantastic Four to help.

Then the X-Men shows up with two new Sentinels.

Give Apoc a break.

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Doom always has a plan whether its political, magical, or otherwise.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/NM95/DrDoomSquirrels.gif

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
To even put their intelligence in the same league is a little ridiculous.

Not really.


I believe even Uatu the Watcher has acknowledged Apoc's intellect.

Originally posted by Bad Ash231



I believe even Uatu the Watcher has acknowledged Apoc's intellect.

Uatu seems to have an unhealthy mancrush on Poccy though

Because Doom really carries a anti-matter cannon on him at all times... Like I said, give him 10 minutes to go home and get his anti-matter cannon and yeah, but he isnt doing it with his every day gear.

the same can be said about apocalypse.

thats one guy you don't want to make a "go home, get your best gear, then come back and lets duke it out" fight.

two words, celestial tech.

apocalypse is a cross-over level villian, doom isn't

Originally posted by psycho gundam
the same can be said about apocalypse.

thats one guy you don't want to make a "go home, get your best gear, then come back and lets duke it out" fight.

two words, celestial tech.

apocalypse is a cross-over level villian, doom isn't

Doom has stolen Glactus Power, SS Power, Beyonders Power... he has done more than Apocalypse.

apocalypse mastered celestial technology.

apocalypse was a conqueror of civilizations since the written word and concurred multiple futures as well, doom is a flash in the pan, a mere child in comparison.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
apocalypse mastered celestial technology.

apocalypse was a conqueror of civilizations since the written word and concurred multiple futures as well, doom is a flash in the pan, a mere child in comparison.






My advise is to crack a book outside of the X-Titles once and a while.

Doom is "THE" Villain, APOC is a badguy afterthought.

Originally posted by The Illuminati



My advise is to crack a book outside of the X-Titles once and a while.

Doom is "THE" Villain, APOC is a badguy afterthought.
heh, your advise is questionable after reading the last sentance.
"afterthought"? age of apocalypse is an afterthought? cable, stryfe, sinister, x-man, warren worthington III etc lives started/ruined by apocalypse and he is an afterthought? c'mon.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
apocalypse mastered celestial technology.

apocalypse was a conqueror of civilizations since the written word and concurred multiple futures as well, doom is a flash in the pan, a mere child in comparison.

None of that compares to the things I just mentioned.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
heh, your advise is questionable after reading the last sentance.
"afterthought"? age of apocalypse is an afterthought? cable, stryfe, sinister, x-man, warren worthington III etc lives started/ruined by apocalypse and he is an afterthought? c'mon.

Yes, he is an afterthought.

Doom is the bigger named villain.

AOA is an alternate timeline.

Originally posted by redhotrash
Because Doom really carries a anti-matter cannon on him at all times... Like I said, give him 10 minutes to go home and get his anti-matter cannon and yeah, but he isnt doing it with his every day gear. He whipped it out, out of nowhere in his battle with Meph.

Army of demons/Crimson Bands of Cytorak ftw.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
apocalypse mastered celestial technology.

apocalypse was a conqueror of civilizations since the written word and concurred multiple futures as well, doom is a flash in the pan, a mere child in comparison. He mastered it? Really? Wow... Celestial tech really... sort of... sucks.

Alternate futures? Doom is the Sorcerer Supreme in one of his futures.

And in canon... he's stolen Galactus's power. Galactus's power/Cosmic Cube/Other artifacts (although it may not be canon... not sure yet). He's stolen Beyonder's power. He's stolen Silver Surfer's power. He's stolen a Watcher's power.
All through a little bit of planning. Doom is a cosmic villain when he's in the mood for power.

However, this battle isn't about what one has done with prep... is it? Or what they have accomplished in that aspect. Hell, if you want to compare... Thanos keeps an eye on Doom at all times.

all of those things he has lost right.

they are somewhat equal in the tech biz and the point about tech was secondary, the meat of the matter is apocalypse being the greater of the two villains by far (imo)

Originally posted by psycho gundam
all of those things he has lost right.

they are somewhat equal in the tech biz and the point about tech was secondary, the meat of the matter is apocalypse being the greater of the two villains by far (imo) Of course. Beyonder reclaimed his power (through plot).
Black Bolt shouted a full scream x whatever the machine Reed gave him amplified it by.
And he ran into Galactus's forcefield.

They aren't even close in tech... while Apoc may have assy Celestial tech (as it's assy to what Celestials can do)... he hasn't accomplished what Doom has.
Doom has actually blown apart Meph in his own realm (although he reformed because he's Meph).
He's stolen Galactus's power with a mechanism he built in like 10 minutes of planning/building.
He can steal Surfer's power with his tech.
He redirected Thor's hammer with a field.
He's one shotted Adam Warlock twice with his own blasts in his suit.
Etc.

Secondary maybe... but it's still wrong.

Heh... comics go against that.

Apocalypse = conqueror

Dr. Doom = would be conqueror

those titles speak for themselves in terms of accomplishments.

(imo) sans tech, apocalypse literally crushes doom.
with tech, it may be a toss up victory that leads to a bfr.

What are the conditions for this fight? Is there any prep?

Can Apocalypse resist the Ovoid Mind Transfer?

Originally posted by psycho gundam
Apocalypse = conqueror

Dr. Doom = would be conqueror

those titles speak for themselves in terms of accomplishments.

(imo) sans tech, apocalypse literally crushes doom.
with tech, it may be a toss up victory that leads to a bfr.

Apocalypse conquered ancient civilizations in 616 timeline, not that much of a feat.

several cultures, he is known as a god in tombs and tablets.

he concurred at least: china, north america, mexico, south america, upper africa to the middle east to india, the inhumans moon base (sort of) and various other countries in different time lines.


doom has latvaria......

Originally posted by psycho gundam
Apocalypse = conqueror

Dr. Doom = would be conqueror

those titles speak for themselves in terms of accomplishments.

(imo) sans tech, apocalypse literally crushes doom.
with tech, it may be a toss up victory that leads to a bfr.

Anyway, Doom has ran his own country for years.

What does Apoc rule now?

Plus, that speaks as though it's a "I don't know what they've done, but Apoc has a cool title!" to me.
And I don't even know where that came from. Wiki, Marvel, handbooks? Either way, it's irrelevant.


May I be so bold, as to ask what this is based on?

Plus, sans tech, Apoc is a mutant, without Celestial armor. Doom is a pimp with a scar on his face... with very potent magic skills. Doom would assrape Apoc sans tech.

an immortal mutant don't forget, and one that can control all the atoms of his being, and then some.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
an immortal mutant don't forget, and one that can control all the atoms of his being, and then some. And?

He gets thrown in the bands, and then gets an army after him.

Doom's magic blasts have rocked Beyonder...

intangibility arguably counteracts both.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
several cultures, he is known as a god in tombs and tablets.

he concurred at least: china, north america, mexico, south america, upper africa to the middle east to india, the inhumans moon base (sort of) and various other countries in different time lines.


doom has latvaria......

A god to ancient civilizations, that's not that big of a deal, pretty much anyone with powers would have been viewed as a god.

Doom has done more impressive things, get over it.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
intangibility arguably counteracts both. When has Apoc used intangibility? Let alone all the way back before he got Celestial Tech?

he still possesses it regardless.

alright, during the onslaught fiasco, doom was fighting along side his peers and what was apocalypse doing, he was sipping pina coladas with
uatu for the majority, looking down at the mortals fight in the trenches.

all im saying is apoc is on a higher level of villany than doom.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
all im saying is apoc is on a higher level of villany than doom.

Except he isn't.

Apocalypse better be glad he wasn't fighting because he would've gotten raped.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
he still possesses it regardless.

alright, during the onslaught fiasco, doom was fighting along side his peers and what was apocalypse doing, he was sipping pina coladas with
uatu for the majority, looking down at the mortals fight in the trenches.

all im saying is apoc is on a higher level of villany than doom. Based on?

So, Apoc was too much of a pussy to fight Onslaught... is what you're saying?

Based on?

chill, apocalypse approached the onslaught situation with a plausible plan
doom got thrashed like the rest of the heroes present.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
chill, apocalypse approached the onslaught situation with a plausible plan
doom got thrashed like the rest of the heroes present.

You act like being beaten by Onslaught is a low showing.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
chill, apocalypse approached the onslaught situation with a plausible plan
doom got thrashed like the rest of the heroes present. I'm 'chill' as you put it. I'm cooler than a cock in ice.

Doom was part of the thinkers that defeated Onslaught...

no im not, i stated the attack stratagem displayed by en sabah nur was testament to his superiority as a villain thats all.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
no im not, i stated the attack stratagem displayed by en sabah nur was testament to his superiority as a villain thats all. Villains aren't supposed to be pussies.

That would be like saying Watcher is a better hero than Cap, because he watched Cap get slaughtered by Thanos with IG. Or is a better cosmic than Eternity, Galactus, etc.

Anyway, I'm convinced you're not serious.

your analogy is off, the way you put it Adolf Hitler is a Lessar villain than
jeffrey dahmer just because jeff did it himself.

apoc used his brain in the confruntation, that speaks volumes does it not?

Originally posted by psycho gundam
your analogy is off, the way you put it Adolf Hitler is a Lessar villain than
jeffrey dahmer just because jeff did it himself. Hitler orchestrated everything... Apoc, and Watcher did shit all.

this is getting lame fast, it's like two am and this is still continuing.
we can't convince each other who is write so I will back off till morning,

this is the first time I have ever seen you get serious in a thread, it's kind of out of character.

Not even close to serious. Just short but sweet posts.

Also, I don't like continuing debates after the day they happened... so...

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
So, Apoc was too much of a pussy to fight Onslaught... is what you're saying?

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
Villains aren't supposed to be pussies.

lol


Apoc had his reasons for not fighting Onslaught.

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/9334/uncannyxmen3551pr5.jpg

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/7255/uncannyxmen3552ec4.jpg

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/8994/fantasticfour415cv0.jpg

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9510/uncannyxmen3664vy0.jpg

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/6374/uncannyxmen3665cw7.jpg

Until...

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/7730/uncannyxmen3663si0.jpg

And after all that happened in Cable #35, Apocalypse states that he and Watcher will see who remains after Onslaught.

http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/6930/cable03523vk4.jpg

So... I can see some superiority to Doom here...

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
He mastered it? Really? Wow... Celestial tech really... sort of... sucks.

Sucks?


Apoc used it to turn a normal guy into a Doomsday-like being that the Avengers, including that of Thor, couldn't harm.

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
Not... really.

Legion kills Xavier. Apoc awakes from his sleep earlier than he did in 616 and, well, conquers the world.


That reminds me of this video...


http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/257930




What the hell are you talking about.


Accomplishing WHAT? Doom has actually conquered the world before but gave it up in an old fantatic four. Hes taken the powers of the SS, Galactus and the Beyonder. Hes fought several teams and fought quite well. His track record is great even by villian standards. Your arguement against Dooms counter measures is a fight with Squirrel girl, whose reputation has always been to take down huge villians as an inside joke? Dooms built his own time machine. Apoc has what? celestial tech? Big deal, he almost never usues it properly. His intellect is also a cause for concern considering I rarely see him do anything above average for a supposed evil genius.

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
lol


Apoc had his reasons for not fighting Onslaught.

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/9334/uncannyxmen3551pr5.jpg

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/7255/uncannyxmen3552ec4.jpg

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/8994/fantasticfour415cv0.jpg

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9510/uncannyxmen3664vy0.jpg

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/6374/uncannyxmen3665cw7.jpg

Until...

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/7730/uncannyxmen3663si0.jpg

And after all that happened in Cable #35, Apocalypse states that he and Watcher will see who remains after Onslaught.

http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/6930/cable03523vk4.jpg

So... I can see some superiority to Doom here... So , um, he decided not to get involved only to later get involved to try to kill Franklin Richards. Sounds to me more like his plan failed so hes keeping out of it to save his ass.

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
Didn't the Mighty Avengers recently take down Doom by brute force? The entire Avengers team was taken out by Doom. What saved them - Jessica's apparent hidden powers and the Sentry - PIS in a can.

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
Not... really.

Legion kills Xavier. Apoc awakes from his sleep earlier than he did in 616 and, well, conquers the world.


And then hes killed by Magneto alone. Its hard to argue about Apocalypse when most of the stories he has appeared in don't make any sense. I am still trying to figure out how twelve mutants make a celestial level being despite the "Each of the mutants represent different aspects of nature " bs.

Originally posted by LORD B
with no prep,apoc comfortably

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Doom has actually conquered the world before but gave it up in an old fantatic four.

How did he accomplish that anyway?

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Apoc has what? celestial tech? Big deal, he almost never usues it properly.

And what is "properly"? The Watchers and the Cosmic Cube beings have trouble comprehending the Celestials...

Apocalypse once used his tech to forcibly teleport Bishop out of the time stream.

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
His intellect is also a cause for concern considering I rarely see him do anything above average for a supposed evil genius.

And what is "above average" evil genius?

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
So , um, he decided not to get involved only to later get involved to try to kill Franklin Richards. Sounds to me more like his plan failed so hes keeping out of it to save his ass.

Your assumption, yes.

APOC wins easy

How can Huey compare the F4's fights with Doom to the X-men's fight with Apocalypse? The x-men needed to depower an already weakened Apocalypse in order to have a shot at beating him :/

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
He whipped it out, out of nowhere in his battle with Meph.

Army of demons/Crimson Bands of Cytorak ftw.

He mastered it? Really? Wow... Celestial tech really... sort of... sucks.

Alternate futures? Doom is the Sorcerer Supreme in one of his futures.

And in canon... he's stolen Galactus's power. Galactus's power/Cosmic Cube/Other artifacts (although it may not be canon... not sure yet). He's stolen Beyonder's power. He's stolen Silver Surfer's power. He's stolen a Watcher's power.
All through a little bit of planning. Doom is a cosmic villain when he's in the mood for power.

However, this battle isn't about what one has done with prep... is it? Or what they have accomplished in that aspect. Hell, if you want to compare... Thanos keeps an eye on Doom at all times.

Loki is also the sorcerer supreme in one future.

Are we really using alternate futures as a reference on KMC? Didnt Punisher kill everyone in 1 alternate future?
On a more realistic (comic book speaking) note, Apocalypse has had how long to study celestial tech? Dont get me wrong, I love the character, but they have dropped the ball on him big time. It just seems like the best thing to come from Apocalypse has been Mr. Sinister, who while being weaker and operating on a smaller scale than the big guy, has been at least equally as sucessful.
Dr. Doom on the other hand is one of the most respected villains on comics for a reason. He does awesome things with less resources than some other badguys, and always does them with style.
Still, like I said before, using standard gear hes outmatched here. Through his character's history he hasnt used magic consistantly like some people on here would lead you to believe.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
Apocalypse = conqueror

Dr. Doom = would be conqueror

those titles speak for themselves in terms of accomplishments.

(imo) sans tech, apocalypse literally crushes doom.
with tech, it may be a toss up victory that leads to a bfr.
Doom conquered the world 3 TIMES with 100s of yeasr Apoc has not conquered 616 earth even ONCE.

Originally posted by godking
Doom conquered the world 3 TIMES with 100s of yeasr Apoc has not conquered 616 earth even ONCE.

When has Apocalypse ever been all about conquering the world?

Originally posted by llagrok
When has Apocalypse ever been all about conquering the world? Doom has acomplished most of his goals unlike Apocalypse.

Originally posted by godking
Doom has acomplished most of his goals unlike Apocalypse.

Apocalypse's goal isn't as easy to accomplish, he wants to separate the weak from the strong, it's not as easily accomplished as simply gaining more powers.

Apocalypse also had reality altering powers after the twelve, so it's not like he has never gotten any proper power.

apoc never conquered earth 616 bcuz he never saw the opportunity to for 1 for 2 in the reality in which apoc conquers the earth he thoroughly owns the world to were u can honestly say he had his own era or "age" however on another note doom is cunning enough to create his own scenario in which he could take over honestly i m gonna honestly have to say this is gonna be a stalemate apoc's got battle experience dooms got the cunning and there power levels r too close to call it

Originally posted by Bad Ash231

Your assumption, yes. You serious. So him helping,failing and then changing his mind is my assumption.

So I am supposed to take his word for it that he just changed his mind.

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
The entire Avengers team was taken out by Doom. What saved them - Jessica's apparent hidden powers and the Sentry - PIS in a can.

You mean Doom using magic on IM and failing to stop someone who's stronger than him? Oh yeah, PIS.

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Doom has actually conquered the world before but gave it up in an old fantatic four. Hes taken the powers of the SS, Galactus and the Beyonder. Hes fought several teams and fought quite well. His track record is great even by villian standards. Your arguement against Dooms counter measures is a fight with Squirrel girl, whose reputation has always been to take down huge villians as an inside joke? Dooms built his own time machine. Apoc has what? celestial tech? Big deal, he almost never usues it properly. His intellect is also a cause for concern considering I rarely see him do anything above average for a supposed evil genius.

A Doom from a future time stole the Beyonder's powers.

Can I get an example of Apocalypse's tech sucking? Because it has been pretty properly employed earlier :/

Empowering mutants, letting him beat the Inhuman family and almost gaining omnipotence :/

Originally posted by Bad Ash231




And what is "above average" evil genius?



Lex is an above average evil genius. So is Joker. So is alex luthor. Someone whose actions qualifies to threaten more than a group of mutants and with a generally high risk of them succeeding. Doom is a threat to the universe. Apocalypse is a planetary threat. Doom has taken the powers of cosmic Gods. Hes been all powerful on more than one occasion.

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
You serious. So him helping,failing and then changing his mind is my assumption.

So I am supposed to take his word for it that he just changed his mind.

Wait, now I'm lost.


Apoc changed his mind about what?

Originally posted by llagrok
You mean Doom using magic on IM and failing to stop someone who's stronger than him? Oh yeah, PIS.



A Doom from a future time stole the Beyonder's powers.

Can I get an example of Apocalypse's tech sucking? Because it has been pretty properly employed earlier :/

Empowering mutants, letting him beat the Inhuman family and almost gaining omnipotence :/ Gambit beat his programming. Gambit? Hulk overcame it in a day.

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
Wait, now I'm lost.


Apoc changed his mind about what?
A) He first stated he wouldn't get involved because it plays into this whole belief in "Survival of the Fittest" " B)Then he helps Cable to stop him, that fails and now C)hes back to staying out of it. Seems like hes flipping to me.

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Lex is an above average evil genius. So is Joker. So is alex luthor.

Joker is an above average evil genius, but Apoc isn't?

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Someone whose actions qualifies to threaten more than a group of mutants and with a generally high risk of them succeeding.

lol

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
I am at work so I am kinda only half paying attention to what I post. My bad. What I meant was the
"The villian usually has high end plans which tend to theaten more than a planet".

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Gambit beat his programming. Gambit? Hulk overcame it in a day.

Uhm, so?

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
A) He first stated he wouldn't get involved because it plays into this whole belief in "Survival of the Fittest" " B)Then he helps Cable to stop him, that fails and now C)hes back to staying out of it. Seems like hes flipping to me.

His plan to stop Onslaught from becoming omnipotent flopped. They wouldn't kill Franklin, which kinda pissed Apoc off. He had nothing more to offer that could help stop Onslaught.

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
I am at work so I am kinda only half paying attention to what I post. My bad. What I meant was the
"The villian usually has high end plans which tend to theaten more than a planet".

Well, there's the Twelve.

Originally posted by llagrok
Uhm, so? Lex has put someone under mind control, so has Doom. Each tend to last more than a day. Thats the problem. Besides enhance and control other mutants his tech is good for nothing. The limits of this control doesn't seem to last very long since most mutants overcome it in a short period of time.

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Lex has put someone under mind control, so has Doom. Each tend to last more than a day. Thats the problem. Besides enhance and control other mutants his tech is good for nothing. The limits of this control doesn't seem to last very long since most mutants overcome it in a short period of time.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/NM95/lex-luthor-wrong1.jpg

It's not mind control. They are brainwashed, though others might follow him willingly.

Angel was tricked into believing he had killed Iceman. This 'shocked' him back to his senses. The same happened to Hulk when he thought he killed Rick Jones. And Wolverine returned to his former self thanks to Shadow King.

Apoc's other Horsemen (not main characters like Angel, Gambit, Wolverine or Hulk) have remained at his side, mostly for a very long time.

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Lex has put someone under mind control, so has Doom. Each tend to last more than a day. Thats the problem. Besides enhance and control other mutants his tech is good for nothing. The limits of this control doesn't seem to last very long since most mutants overcome it in a short period of time.

Apocalypse didn't really try to brainwash Gambit, that was the whole idea. Gambit thought he was still fully in control. It's not like his technology failed to grant them powers.

You had nothing to say when I called you on the other bullshit. Apocalypse gaining reality warping powers, becoming strong enough to easily withstand Black Bolt's voice, etc.

Or the Doom who stole the Beyonder's powers being a different Doom.

Doom stole Beyonders power in Secret Wars, that wasn't another timeline.

Originally posted by llagrok
Apocalypse didn't really try to brainwash Gambit, that was the whole idea. Gambit thought he was still fully in control. It's not like his technology failed to grant them powers.

You had nothing to say when I called you on the other bullshit. Apocalypse gaining reality warping powers, becoming strong enough to easily withstand Black Bolt's voice, etc.

Or the Doom who stole the Beyonder's powers being a different Doom.
Actually the Secret Wars IS valid for mainstream Doom. See the Beyonder pulled Doom from the 1990's back to the time period of the Secret Wars, and then restored Doom's memories to him later on after he'd been brought back to life. That mean that Doom's current self has actually experienced(and remembers) the entire Secret War saga.

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
Well, there's the Twelve. Please don't mention "the twelve". That series made no sense and was terrible.

Originally posted by llagrok
Apocalypse didn't really try to brainwash Gambit, that was the whole idea. Gambit thought he was still fully in control. It's not like his technology failed to grant them powers.

You had nothing to say when I called you on the other bullshit. Apocalypse gaining reality warping powers, becoming strong enough to easily withstand Black Bolt's voice, etc.

Or the Doom who stole the Beyonder's powers being a different Doom. what bullshit are you talking about. Listing stats from his handbook doesn't mean anything. Martian Manhunters stats put him above most heroes but for the most part he gets owned a lot. You can spew stats till your head pops off but for the most part he doesn't do anything but manipulate his arms and use concussive blasts. As far as the twelve goes. He took twelve mutants that out of no where equate to cosmic power. Thats around Lex and his infamous orange juice cans level of stupidity.

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/NM95/lex-luthor-wrong1.jpg

It's not mind control. They are brainwashed, though others might follow him willingly.

Angel was tricked into believing he had killed Iceman. This 'shocked' him back to his senses. The same happened to Hulk when he thought he killed Rick Jones. And Wolverine returned to his former self thanks to Shadow King.

Apoc's other Horsemen (not main characters like Angel, Gambit, Wolverine or Hulk) have remained at his side, mostly for a very long time. Brainwashed, mind control -your splitting hairs, the point is they never work on anyone worth a damn for any long period of time. Doom has been an issue for a number of cosmic gods. He was even a problem Akhenaten felt needed to be taken care of quickly in the end .

Originally posted by darthgoober

Actually the Secret Wars IS valid for mainstream Doom. See the Beyonder pulled Doom from the 1990's back to the time period of the Secret Wars, and then restored Doom's memories to him later on after he'd been brought back to life. That mean that Doom's current self has actually experienced(and remembers) the entire Secret War saga.
While I agree SW (84) is valid for 616 Doom,
because he was re-introduced into the SW saga (84) by Beyonder in 85' (not 90)
we mustn't forget that the original version of Doom that "stole" B's power,
was not the real, or original Doom,
but an impossible alternate from a non-existent future courtesy of the Beyonder.

It once again proves that Doom stealing Beyonder's power is a farce,
for Beyonder actually allowed Doom to steal his power again during that re-introduction,
this solidifies Beyonder's absolute manipulation of the entire event,
but beyond this,
we later learn that Beyonder unconsciously gave Doom what he wanted,
because it was in Beyonder's nature to give others what they desired,
I mean,
that was the whole point of SW I in the first place, to grant insects their dreams.

For Doom, that dream was Beyonder's power:

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/6075/72324362xc8.th.jpg