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Who do you think are the top ten. Here are mine, not in any kind of order.

1.Obi-Wan
2.Yoda
3.Kit Fisto
4.Quinlan Vos
5.Mace Windu
6.Anakin Skywalker
7.Cin Drallig
8.Plo Koon
9.Saesee Tinn
10.Agen Kolar

Originally posted by skywalker833
Who do you think are the top ten. Here are mine, not in any kind of order.

1.Obi-Wan
2.Yoda
3.Kit Fisto
4.Quinlan Vos
5.Mace Windu
6.Anakin Skywalker
7.Cin Drallig
8.Plo Koon
9.Saesee Tinn
10.Agen Kolar

I think mine would be...

1. Obi-Wan
2. Anakin
3. Mace Windu
4. Nebar Foxis
5. Plo Koon
6. Kit Fisto
7. Aayla Secura
8. Quinlan Vos
9. Ki-Adi-Mundi
10. Saesee Tinn (Even though he didn't last long against Sidious)

Originally posted by sweersa
I think mine would be...

1. Obi-Wan
2. Anakin
3. Mace Windu
4. Nebar Foxis
5. Plo Koon
6. Kit Fisto
7. Aayla Secura
8. Quinlan Vos
9. Ki-Adi-Mundi
10. Saesee Tinn (Even though he didn't last long against Sidious)

You underestimated the merits of Quinlan Vos.

That's not any worse then having Anakin at 6th place.

The actual list would be:

1. Yoda.
2. Mace Windu.
3. Anakin Skywalker.
4. Obi-Wan Kenobi
5. Depa Billaba.
6. Kit Fisto.
7. Agen Kolar.
8. Saesee Tiin.
9. Plo Koon.
10. Cin Drallig.

noice.

By the way, this begs the question.

Top ten in what context?

Probably in fighting the war...

...and you're joking about Nebar, right Sweersa?

Yeah but I mean, in terms of what? Achievements? Victories? Power level (9000+)?

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
That's not any worse then having Anakin at 6th place.

are you blind, I said that was in no particular order.

Non-Jedi are being discriminated against.

Originally posted by skywalker833
are you blind, I said that was in no particular order.

Yeah actually. I am blind.

Way to be a totally insensitive jerk.

I'll put mine in order.

1. Yoda
2. Obi-Wan Kenobi
3. Mace Windu
4. Anakin Skywalker
5. Cin Drallig
6. Kit Fisto
7. Quinlan Vos
8. Plo Koon
9. Saesee Tinn
10. Agen Kolar

I really have trouble putting Obiwan above Mace. Especially since we see how Mace had Sidious at blade point unarmed of his lightsaber while Yoda says Obiwan is not strong enough to face Sidious. And I believe he went even further in the ROTS novel to say that Obiwan would never be strong enough to face the emperor and win.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I really have trouble putting Obiwan above Mace. Especially since we see how Mace had Sidious at blade point unarmed of his lightsaber while Yoda says Obiwan is not strong enough to face Sidious. And I believe he went even further in the ROTS novel to say that Obiwan would never be strong enough to face the emperor and win.
I put obi wan above mace because I think they are equals, but I had to put one on top.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Yeah actually. I am blind.



pmfh!

If we were to include all force sensitives, the list would probably be:

1. Yoda.
2. Darth Sidious.
3. Mace Windu.
4. Count Dooku.
5. Anakin Skywalker.
6. Obi-Wan Kenobi.
7. General Grievous.
8. Depa Billaba.
9. Sora Bulq.
10. Asajj Ventress.

Originally posted by Caecilius
The actual list would be:

1. Yoda.
2. Mace Windu.
3. Anakin Skywalker.
4. Obi-Wan Kenobi
5. Depa Billaba.
6. Kit Fisto.
7. Agen Kolar.
8. Saesee Tiin.
9. Plo Koon.
10. Cin Drallig.

Yes, especially since she was only in it for 6 months and spent the rest of it being mentally ill

Originally posted by Caecilius
If we were to include all force sensitives, the list would probably be:

1. Yoda.
2. Darth Sidious.
3. Mace Windu.
4. Count Dooku.
5. Anakin Skywalker.
6. Obi-Wan Kenobi.
7. General Grievous.
8. Depa Billaba.
9. Sora Bulq.
10. Asajj Ventress.

But we're talking about jedi. Pretty accurate list though.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Probably in fighting the war...

...and you're joking about Nebar, right Sweersa?

Yes. :-P

To the people who freaked out: Who cares what number I put Vos as, the order doesn't matter, I never said or implied that.

Besides, Vos was only mentioned in Episode III, lol he might as well not even exist.

For those of you who don't know, Nebar Foxis is known as the most handsome Jedi, you catch a tiny glimpse of him in Episode III when Obi-Wan looks at the security hologram. He also encountered General Grievous in the clone wars and survived.

Hahaha.

1. Anakin Skywalker
2. Mace Windu
3. Yoda
4. Quinlan Vos.
5. Obi-Wan Kenobi.
6. Depa Billaba.
7. Kit Fisto.
8. Cin Drallig.
9. Plo Koon.
10. Aayla Secura.

Originally posted by Tangible God
1. Anakin Skywalker
2. Mace Windu
3. Yoda
4. Quinlan Vos.
5. Obi-Wan Kenobi.
6. Depa Billaba.
7. Kit Fisto.
8. Cin Drallig.
9. Plo Koon.
10. Aayla Secura.


Please tell me that isn't in order.

1. Yoda
2. Mace Windu
3. Anakin SKywalker
4. Obi-Wan Kenobi
5. Cin Drallig
6. Depa Billaba (if she counts as a Jedi at this time, she is kind of a dark Jedi)
7. Agen Kolar (he beat the shit out of Quinlan Vos in one comic)
8. Ki-Adi-Mundi
9. Plo Koon
10. Kit Fisto / Quinlan Vos (not sure)






Talking about fighting power, not who did the most damage to the CIS during the war.

Originally posted by skywalker833
Please tell me that isn't in order. No, it is, why?

first of all, you can't put anakin above yoda and mace and obi 1, well maybe obi1 idk. And second, how in the name of George Lucas can you put Quinlan Vos above Kenobi, that is not right.

Originally posted by skywalker833
first of all, you can't put anakin above yoda and mace and obi 1, well maybe obi1 idk. And second, how in the name of George Lucas can you put Quinlan Vos above Kenobi, that is not right. If this included the OT I'd put ESB Luke above Kenobi.

Originally posted by Tangible God
If this included the OT I'd put ESB Luke above Kenobi.

That is extremely pathetic.

I stress the "extremely".

Originally posted by skywalker833
I stress the "extremely". I stress the inability of online posts to properly convey sarcasm or facetiousness.

Originally posted by sweersa
I think mine would be...

1. Obi-Wan
2. Anakin
3. Mace Windu
4. Nebar Foxis
5. Plo Koon
6. Kit Fisto
7. Aayla Secura
8. Quinlan Vos
9. Ki-Adi-Mundi
10. Saesee Tinn (Even though he didn't last long against Sidious)

Nebar Foxis? Are you Supershadow? He created that false character.

Originally posted by darthsith19
1. Yoda
2. Mace Windu
3. Anakin SKywalker
4. Obi-Wan Kenobi
5. Cin Drallig
6. Depa Billaba (if she counts as a Jedi at this time, she is kind of a dark Jedi)
7. Agen Kolar (he beat the shit out of Quinlan Vos in one comic)
8. Ki-Adi-Mundi
9. Plo Koon
10. Kit Fisto / Quinlan Vos (not sure)






Talking about fighting power, not who did the most damage to the CIS during the war.


Great list DarkSith! Except I'd actually rate Depa either above Anakin or just below him since she was as powerful as RotS Mace at the end of Shatterpoint.

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
Nebar Foxis? Are you Supershadow? He created that false character.

Uh oh...

THERE IS NO ORDER

Originally posted by Tangible God
I stress the inability of online posts to properly convey sarcasm or facetiousness.

..... you're an odd one.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk


Top ten in what context?

Power

UNLIMITED POWER?

You are not making any sense.

For someone who's apparently almost 15, you have a staggeringly weak sense of humor.

As for the thread, and assuming we're talking about actual Force power and not "who would beat whom":

1) Anakin Skywalker
2) Yoda
3) Mace Windu

As far as acquired or raw power go, that's pretty much how the top three pan out. While at this point, Anakin's control over his powers is still low enough that he can be matched by Obi-Wan, his level of raw power only six months into the Clone Wars was compared to that of Yoda and Kar Vastor, the latter of whom was noted as being "immensely more powerful ." Yoda >>> anyone else in the Jedi Order as far as acquired power goes - his high initial potential coupled with his ridiculously high degree of Force mastery puts him unquestionably at the top, but since Anakin's power has grown considerably since Shatterpoint, he takes a back seat to Skywalker in pure power.

Following Mace, however, the rest are pretty foggy. Ki-Adi would be up there, as he ripped a fairly massive sail barge out of the sand in Outlander while battered and wounded, and Obi-Wan is an obvious contender. However, both are probably only as good as they are on account of there advanced Force mastery.

The definition of "power" as you're looking at it needs to be better explained, s883.

Yoda
Mace Windu
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Anakin Skywalker
Quinlan Vos
Plo Koon
Aayla Secura
Agen Kolar
Kit Fisto
Tholme

Originally posted by UltimateStryfe
Yoda
Mace Windu
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Anakin Skywalker
Quinlan Vos
Plo Koon
Aayla Secura
Agen Kolar
Kit Fisto
Tholme

Nice list.

thank you

i tried to include "influence on the galaxy" in my criteria

Originally posted by Caecilius
If we were to include all force sensitives, the list would probably be:

1. Yoda.
2. Darth Sidious.
3. Mace Windu.
4. Count Dooku.
5. Anakin Skywalker.
6. Obi-Wan Kenobi.
7. General Grievous.
8. Depa Billaba.
9. Sora Bulq.
10. Asajj Ventress.

General Grievous wasn't Force-sensitive, was he?
In ROTS game, he has mechanical abilities instead of Force powers.
In the book it mentions that his reflexes are cybernetically enhaced.
So that is why he can fight a Jedi and live longer then ten seconds.

Originally posted by Darth Maliko
General Grievous wasn't Force-sensitive, was he?
In ROTS game, he has mechanical abilities instead of Force powers.
In the book it mentions that his reflexes are cybernetically enhaced.
So that is why he can fight a Jedi and live longer then ten seconds. Yup. Plus the four 360-revolving hands and Sifo-Dyas' blood are an added boost. But just by a bit.

Sifo-Dyas's blood? Seriously? Where do we find that out?

And do we ever actually find out what the hell the deal is with SD anyway?

all force-sensitives:
1. Darth Sidious
2. Yoda
3. Mace Windu
4. Obi-Wan
5. Darth Vader (before the lava bath)
6. Darth Tyranus
7. Agen Kolar
8. Ki-Adi-Mundi
9. Saesee Tiin
10. Kit Fisto

anyway the last 4 are not so great but i had to add someone

imo, Yoda should be above sidious. What about a jedi list.

Originally posted by skywalker833
imo, Yoda should be above sidious. Cuz that's why Sidious was Emperor, and Yoda was a hermit.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Cuz that's why Sidious was Emperor, and Yoda was a hermit.
you're so funny.

Besides, it is a jedi list.

Originally posted by skywalker833
Besides, it is a jedi list.

Was it necessary to revive this thread with that type of comment?

GG is not force sensitive at all. Syfo-Dyas had nothing to do with him. Refer to the OS.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Was it necessary to revive this thread with that type of comment?
Yep why not? you people are so strict. You probably don't even care. You need to relax.

I'm wondering how to rank them at this moment. Many Jedi Masters is considered as "one of the greatest swordmaster..." I'm really curious about them. So let's rank them again, but excluding people like: Yoda, Sidious, Plagueis, Dooku, Mace, Anakin, Maul, Obi-wan.

Considering their lightsabers skills only, I would rank them that way:

1. Sora Bulq
2. Agen Kolar
3. Savage Opress
4. Plo Koon
5. Asajj Ventress
6. Saesee Tiin
7. Kit Fisto
8. Depa Billaba
9. Cin Drallig
10. Anoon Bondara (I want to put him on that list)
11. Shaak Ti
12. Eeth Koth
13. Ki-Adi-Mundi
14. Adi Gallia
15 Luminara Unduli

Tier 1: Yoda
Tier 2: Mace, Anakin
Tier 3: Kenobi
Tier 3,5: Fisto, Tiin, Kolar, Koon, Bulq
Tier 4: Mundi, Unduli, Koth
Tier 5: Ti, Gallia, Drallig

Also worth mentioning: A'Sharad Hett.

@Q99
Yeah, and Quinlan Vos. And Tholme or Dark Woman maybe.

@Intrepid37
Are you sure about Gallia and Drallig in tier 5? I would say, that they should be in tier 4.
And Undulis is more like tier 5 imo. Ventress defeated her pretty easily.

And in which tier would you rank: Bondara, Billaba, Ventress and Opress?

I disagree about Gallia and Drallig. None of them has done anything noteworthy that I recall.

Unduli was never beaten easily by Ventress. In fact, it was a stalemate, and Unduli was blinded on one of her eyes.

Bondara would be around Tier 4,5, Ventress would be Tier 3-4, Opress would be Tier 3.

Are we talking about their skills overall, or just their skills wit a sabers?
Anyway, why are you putting Kenobi in in the same tier with Opress?

Opress was easily defeated by Maul, and then, even with his brother's aid, he lost to Kenobi. Obi-Wan and Maul were a 1 tier above Opress in my opinion.
And Opress' fight with Plo Koon was pretty equal, I dont think, that he's 1 tier above Plo.
And Ventress didn't have any advantage over Plo.

And Unduli's injured eye was her mistake during the duel with Ventress.

Yeah Opress is a tier below Kenobi in Sabers. And Ventress is probably on par with Opress. They're both in a tier above Fisto and Kolar, but below Kenobi Imho.

I wasn't taking particularly skill only, I was talking in general combat ability.

Well, if we're talking about general combat ability, then I'm not sure, if Saesee Tiin is not underrated a bit.
he sparred equally with Mace (yeah, it's just sparing, I know). He was probablyone of the best (if not the best) telepath in the order. And his TK skill were close to Mace's. But his raw power in TK was greater then Mace's.
So, I think, that in the force he's above Kenobi, Bulq, Kolar. Maybe he's even better then Plo. His only fail, is his fight with Sidious.

Anyway, it looks like Opress is on top Jedi Master's level, since he's maybe just a bit better then Ventress, a bit better or equal to Plo, and clearly weaker then Maul or Kenobi overall.

So for me, its like that:

Tier 1: Yoda
Tier 2: Mace, Anakin
Tier 3: Kenobi, Maul and possibly Bulq
Tier 4: Opress, Koon, Saesee, Fisto, Ventress
Tier 5: Drallig, Ti, Bondara, Mundi, Koth, Billaba (maybe tier4)
Tier 6: Unduli, Gallia,

No way Opress is in the same tier as those you put there. And Unduli is too low.

Yeah there should be a tier above Koon and Fisto, but below Kenobi and Maul where Opress and maybe Ventress should be.

Luminara did virtually stalemate Ventress and the official site describes the fighting prowess of Barris and Luminara like this:

"their incredible talents with the lightsaber blade served them well."

So yeah she should be a lot higher.

Are you sure guys? In my opinion, Savage's duels with Ventress, and Plo were much more equal then this one with Kenobi.

Kenobi best Savage, when he was aided by Maul. Maul should be in the same league with Kenobi, or even higher, because of his superior force skills.

Savage had a small advantage over Ventress, but she had just one saber. With two, it might looks quite different.

Savage dueled Koon, and he had small advantage.

Ventress dueled Fisto equally, and finally won. On the other hand, when she dueled injured Koon, she still was unable to tak an advatage. In fact, advantage was on Koon's side.

So:
Kenobi > Opress
Ventress >= Fisto
Ventress < Koon
Opress >= Ventress
Kenobi >= Ventress
Opress >= Koon

Smth like that? For me, only Kenobi have clear advantage over most of them. Maybe the key is, to rank people from tier 4? Savage would be on top. But I'm still not convinced, to put Ventress into a higher tier then Plo's.

Or, maybe smth like that:

Tier 3: Kenobi, Maul
Tier 4: Ventress, Opress, Koon, Bulq
Tier 5: Kolar, Fisto, Tiin, Billaba, Bondara
Tier 6: Ti, Drallig, Mundi, Koth

Still, I have a doubts about Sora in that way. His duel with Mace was more equal then Savage's with Maul or Kenobi.

You're overrating Koon. He never even got a hit on Opress when they fought, while Opress got two IIRC.

Ventress and Bulq are too high, so is Bondara.

Look how easily Maul defeated Savage. Look how many simple mistakes Savage did egainst Adi or Kenobi. Adi was much weaker, and unable to turn it into her advantage. Kenobi wasn't. Even with Maul's aid, Savage lost his arm, and I'm not sure about his knee. Did Kenobi broke it?

I don't think, that I'm overrating Koon. It's the fact, that he fought Ventress as equal or more.

In my opinion, you're the one, who overrating Savage a bit. I can agree, that Savage was clearly better then Plo. But still - the difference between him and Koon was smaller, then difference between him and Kenobi.

I don't think that TPM Maul is worse then TCW Maul in sabers. And Bondara fought Maul quite well. He did better then Opress for sure.

And about Bulq - he fought Mace well, was able to force push him. He also had nice advantage over Tholme. And his final duel with Vos is similar to Maul's duel with Kenobi in my opinion. I think, that Bulq was much better then Vos.

1. I'm not looking on the brothers' fight with each other as the final example of how a fight between them would go.

2. That he's fought Ventress as an equal is not denied... especially when we see Savage outmatching Ventress.

3. Uh, according to whom? I'm still questioning Kenobi's apparant superiority over Opress.

4. Bondara is inferior to Jinn who lost to Maul in 30 seconds. Opress is better than both of them.

5. He's better than Vos, sure. Doesn't put him on Opress' level.

Originally posted by Intrepid37


2. That he's fought Ventress as an equal is not denied... especially when we see Savage outmatching Ventress.


He's right though in pointing out Ventress was at a disadvantage against Ventress, not fighting with her most adept style - Jar Kai.


Originally posted by Intrepid37


3. Uh, according to whom? I'm still questioning Kenobi's apparant superiority over Opress.



Really?

Kenobi's on par with Maul. So his superiority over the like of Opress and Ventress should not be in question.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He's right though in pointing out Ventress was at a disadvantage against Ventress, not fighting with her most adept style - Jar Kai.
wut



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Really?

Kenobi's on par with Maul. So his superiority over the like of Opress and Ventress should not be in question.
Opress' performance against Ventress and Koon is better than any of Kenobi's performances against enemies of the same caliber, and as I said, while Maul is above Opress, I don't take their fight as final.

@DP
On the other hand, Kenobi never showed clear superiority over Ventress. They fought many times, and it looks like Ventress had the upper hand in a few duels.

I'd think Shaak Ti would rate a bit higher...

Actually, Ventress had more decisive wins against Kenobi than he had her.

Yeah, somehow I don't see that happening if he was truly a tier above her. He's not.

Ok, so:

Tier 1: Yoda, Sidious
Tier 2: Mace, Dooku, Anakin

We all agree with that, right? Plagueis is in my oponion also in Tier 1, but I guess, that many of you guys, would put him into Tier 2.

How about the others?

Maul annd Kenobi are in Tier 3, right?

Plagueis is 1, Kenobi's 3. Maul could be argued to be 2, but I'm not completely sure.

Start of the Clone Wars:
1. Yoda
2. Mace
3. Depa Bilaba
4. Sora Bulq
5. Shaak Ti
6. Ki-Adi Mundi
7. Anakin Skywalker
8. Plo Koon
9. Kit Fisto
10. Obi-Wan Kenobi

Mid-Late Clone Wars

1. Yoda
2. Mace
3. Anakin Skywalker
4. Obi-Wan Kenobi
5. Shaak Ti
6. Ki-Adi Mundi
7. Plo Koon
8. Kit Fisto
9. Agen Kolar
10. Eeth Koth

^
Why do you think, that Ki-Adi or Shaak Ti are above Fisto, Kolar, Tiin etc?

Originally posted by Zett
^
Why do you think, that Ki-Adi or Shaak Ti are above Fisto, Kolar, Tiin etc?


Ki-Adi Mundi's performance against Ventress is vastly superior to Fisto's furthermore he was able to duel on par with Grievous for hours while exhausted.

Shaak Ti was particularly mentioned by Dooku in LOE as one of the four members of the Council who would give Grievous hell. Granted she likely got more powerful in the force, but her saber techniques unlikely improved on Felucia. And she was able to give Galen Marek hell in sabers.

Tiin is virtually featless aside from sparring with Mace (which means nothing considering even Quinlan Vos did that).

And Kolar's greatest claim to fame is stomping Vos, which everyone on that list could likely do literally with one hand behind their back.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
wut




I meant Ventress was at an inherent disadvantage against Opress. Her chosen form is Jar Kai. And she was still holding her own when Kenobi through her other Saber after she was disarmed of the first.


Originally posted by Intrepid37



Opress' performance against Ventress and Koon is better than any of Kenobi's performances against enemies of the same caliber, and as I said, while Maul is above Opress, I don't take their fight as final.

But none of that really matters when Kenobi has proven more than once that he's on par with Maul, who seems to be above the caliber of Ventress/Opress.

Maybe that's PIS. Just done for the sake of the Kenobi/Maul plot. But that is what they've shown us now.


Originally posted by Zett
@DP
On the other hand, Kenobi never showed clear superiority over Ventress. They fought many times, and it looks like Ventress had the upper hand in a few duels.


I think his win over her in TCW movie was quite decisive personally. The only time I remeber Ventress clearly looking superior to Kenobi is when she was in a rage enhanced state, and even managed to force choke Kenobi and Skywalker together in that fight.

Originally posted by Zett
For hours? I don't think so.

Uhhh unless you think Arc Troopers were able to get a squad ready, get a transport ready, jump to Muunilist and then deploy onto muunlist in minutes you would be wrong.



Most recent revision says Shaak Ti.


He is almost certainly above the likes of Tiin and Kolar considering he wasn't instantly blitzed and owned by Sidious.
Also considering Ti (albeit on a light side nexus) was able to duel and successfully retreat from Darth Vader at the peak of his power (during the Temple Massacre) seems to suggest she's probably at or around Kenobi and Maul's level.


My point exactly.


That means nothing considering Anakin himself was easily in the top 3 of the Order and Shaak Ti knows it. Anyone who could solo Dooku could demolish anyone who's name wasn't Yoda or Mace. Also considering Shaak Ti was left to guard the Temple should they fail speaks volumes for their faith in her Cin Draalig and the rest of the Temple Guard.



Say what now? I know his TK was formidable but greater than Mace?



I doubt he's above Fisto, but perhaps



No that simply implies they think Agen AND Mace could take on Sidious. Not even Mace Windu for all his humble statements would be fool enough to think that the Master of Dooku would go down to someone far weaker than Dooku.



Possibly, but doubtful. Also Fisto was able to react far better than Agen and Saesee.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Actually, Ventress had more decisive wins against Kenobi than he had her.

Yeah, somehow I don't see that happening if he was truly a tier above her. He's not.

Most of those wins were earlier in the Clone Wars, iirc.

Kenobi definitely improves over time, and his win over Anakin is not something that Ventress, Maul, or practically anyone else could do. And it's not just a lucky fluke due to a distracted moment or so on, it was a grueling 10+ minute battle where he defends against Anakin's every attack.


Also, I don't think she could pull the win against Grevious either (she's lost to him before).





Yea, good idea, splitting up the early and late. I like this list.




Agreed, Mace spars with everyone and doesn't seem to go all-out.





I'd interpret that as, "They're members of the group that I would consider the best," not "I consider every last one of them better than me," her statement does not contain a direct comparison to herself, just that she'd consider Anakin's aid unneeded due to their strength. I mean, Mace was in there, and she'd rightly consider him stronger. *Maybe* Fisto too, at a stretch...

... but remember, she's the one who managed to fight her way past Anakin shortly later. I would not bet on Tiin or Kolar or even Fisto doing that!


And Fisto also said he wished that Kenobi or Plo Koon were there with them, so Fisto didn't consider the trio to be the best-best either.

Originally posted by Q99
Most of those wins were earlier in the Clone Wars, iirc.



Their last fight had Ventress taking Obi Wan out of the fight in seconds, and likely would have killed him if Anakin wasn't there helping him. There was another occasion in which she fought off both Kenobi and Skywalker at the same time. Can't remember the episode, but I don't think it was that early.



Originally posted by Q99
Kenobi definitely improves over time



Yeah, I see people say this a lot, as if no one else can improve.



Originally posted by Q99
and his win over Anakin is not something that Ventress, Maul, or practically anyone else could do.



So someone who has either consistently stalemated Kenobi or occasionally owned Kenobi, can't pull off a feat that Kenobi can?


Never mind Anakins mindset in his particular duel with Kenobi, and the fact that Kenobi knows Anakin's moves better than anyone else, thus giving him a better idea of how to deal with a mind-screwed Anakin.



Originally posted by Q99
And it's not just a lucky fluke due to a distracted moment or so on, it was a grueling 10+ minute battle where he defends against Anakin's every attack.


It was a fluke otherwise Obi Wan would be better than Dooku, which we know he's not, because of the fact that he consistently struggled against someone whom Dooku has taken on and defeated while drugged and blind, despite that person having the help of two other force using warriors.


Originally posted by Q99
Also, I don't think she could pull the win against Grevious either (she's lost to him before).



She has pulled off a win against Grievous. And even though she defeated Grievous while on a dark side nexus, but I'm sure if Kit Fisto can casually walk all over Grievous and if Kenobi can make quick work of him, then Ventress is more than capable of pulling a win against him, considering that she has defeated both Obi Wan and Fisto on other occasions.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I meant Ventress was at an inherent disadvantage against Opress. Her chosen form is Jar Kai. And she was still holding her own when Kenobi through her other Saber after she was disarmed of the first.
Ventress' form is Makashi. She should be adept in handling one sword. Maul was never disadvantaged when he only used one side of his lightsaber, and Savage would've been disatvantaged too, given his and his blade's big size in the little space.




Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But none of that really matters when Kenobi has proven more than once that he's on par with Maul, who seems to be above the caliber of Ventress/Opress.

Maybe that's PIS. Just done for the sake of the Kenobi/Maul plot. But that is what they've shown us now.
And given Opress' other absolutely comparable feats to Kenobi, I don't see why he couldn't fight on par with Maul.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
There was another occasion in which she fought off both Kenobi and Skywalker at the same time. Can't remember the episode, but I don't think it was that early.




Season 1 "The Hidden Enemy."



Originally posted by Q99


Kenobi definitely improves over time, and his win over Anakin is not something that Ventress, Maul, or practically anyone else could do.


I'm sure Maul would be on par with the mind phucked Sith Anakin that Kenobi fought on par with.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
Ventress' form is Makashi. She should be adept in handling one sword. Maul was never disadvantaged when he only used one side of his lightsaber, and Savage would've been disatvantaged too, given his and his blade's big size in the little space.


Dooku trained her in Makashi, so yeah she is capable with a single blade. I'm just pointing out that her usual form is a Jar Kai/Makashi blend. So that's the form she fights best with. Maul also fights best with his Saber staff, because that was his chosen form of combat. Doesn't mean he can't handle a single blade as well. Of course he can.

Probably true about Opress's disadvantage though.




Originally posted by Intrepid37
And given Opress' other absolutely comparable feats to Kenobi, I don't see why he couldn't fight on par with Maul.

Because both Kenobi and Maul have stomped Opress. Even if you call those fights "one-off's" it's pretty clear they are both above Opress in combat prowess.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Probably true about Opress's disadvantage though.
Goooooooood.






Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Even if you call those fights "one-off's" it's pretty clear they are both above Opress in combat prowess.
No If they're ''one-off's'', they prove nothing. I need only refer you to Opress beating the shit out of Kenobi in Revenge.

Might Kenobi be more skilled? Probably, but Opress has ragdolled Jedi through sheer Force strength; Opress is undeniably physically stronger and more powerful, and it's helped him beat Ventress and Koon, both of whom Kenobi has and would struggle very much against.

Originally posted by Intrepid37


No If they're ''one-off's'', they prove nothing.

Maul's superiority can't really be questioned. They've fought once, Opress challenged him for Mastership and got stomped pretty bad.

Even if we don't see that as the all and end all, it's a pretty big jump to go from that stompage to saying they're on par. Add to the fact that Maul looked better every time they fought together against the same opponent, and his superiority can't really be denied.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
I need only refer you to Opress beating the shit out of Kenobi in Revenge.

Problem is Dave Filoni confirmed Kenobi was taken completely by surprise in that fight.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
Might Kenobi be more skilled? Probably, but Opress has ragdolled Jedi through sheer Force strength; Opress is undeniably physically stronger and more powerful, and it's helped him beat Ventress and Koon, both of whom Kenobi has and would struggle very much against.

In the past, Yes, but now Kenobi's defeated Opress and consistently fought on par with Maul, so I think it's quite clear he like Maul is above Opress. Probably not a large difference, but there does seem to be a difference.

I never denied Maul's superiority, I'm denying Kenobi's.

^ I know your not a fan of Kenobi's, but he's proven himself to be at least on par with Maul every time they've fought.

He used to be more on par with Ventress but seems to have upped his game after Maul's resurrection.

As late as Season 5 he still struggles with Grievous, who is more or less Ventress' equal.

And I've nothing against Kenobi.

And in their final fight, Obi-wan simply dismantled Grievous.



I have no idea why people think 'very angry Anakin' is such a disadvantage.

This is the same Anakin that cut a bloody swath through the temple, masters and all, and his movements were never described as sloppy or what have you.

Originally posted by Q99


I have no idea why people think 'very angry Anakin' is such a disadvantage.

This is the same Anakin that cut a bloody swath through the temple, masters and all, and his movements were never described as sloppy or what have you.

Vader before the temple raid had gotten ridden of all his fears, and powered himself up with the Darkside according to the ROTS Novel.

Afterwards he begins feeling very conflicted and having regrets(confirmed by Lucas in the audio commentary). We even see him crying while murdering the sepratists.

The novel then confirms right before his fight with Kenobi, that the Fear of losing Padme came back to him, and was deep rooted in his veins.

That kind of fear allowed Dooku to handle Skywalker earlier on, and only after he burnt through those fears was Skywalker able to soundly defeat Count Dooku. And the fear of losing Padme was much worse and rooted more deeply inside him, than his previous fears.


Besides which it's common sense. I mean this is the same Kenobi who was useless against Count Dooku even with Skywalker's aid. Even if we agree the Saber prowess disparity between Dooku and Kenobi is much smaller, there's absolutely no reason why Skywalker would not run through Kenobi as quickly as he did Dooku, unless Skywalker was not as powerful at that point.





Originally posted by Intrepid37
As late as Season 5 he still struggles with Grievous, who is more or less Ventress' equal.



He's beaten Grievous plenty of times even in TCW. At least twice. At one time he beat him when Grievous had the aid of Magnaguards as well.

And Dave Filoni confirmed in a Force Cast interview that when Kenobi beats Grievous in ROTS it's because it's the first time he finally gets him alone for a fair fight.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think his win over her in TCW movie was quite decisive personally.

I don't. She was able to disarm him in the fight. Plus in the same movie she Force-pwns Anakin and beats him fairly swiftly.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't. She was able to disarm him in the fight.

He then went on to dodge all her blows without his Saber, and by the end of the fight it was her who was disarmed of her Saber staff, and then her second Saber. And it was her who ran away from him.



Originally posted by Nephthys


Plus in the same movie she Force-pwns Anakin and beats him fairly swiftly.

You mean in the deleted scene? Pretty sure that's non-canon, since it was deleted and doesn't really fit into the final version.

Skywalker was putting up a decent fight against Count Dooku in that movie.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He then went on to dodge all her blows without his Saber, and by the end of the fight it was her who was disarmed of her Saber staff, and then her second Saber. And it was her who ran away from him.

Well obviously he won. But I wouldn't say he did so decisively, since it was a lengthy fight and she gave almost as good as she got. She disarms him and he, her.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You mean in the deleted scene? Pretty sure that's non-canon, since it was deleted and doesn't really fit into the final version.

Skywalker was putting up a decent fight against Count Dooku in that movie.

This is a deleted scene?

fTgL4-gQRVs

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He then went on to dodge all her blows without his Saber, and by the end of the fight it was her who was disarmed of her Saber staff, and then her second Saber. And it was her who ran away from him.





You mean in the deleted scene? Pretty sure that's non-canon, since it was deleted and doesn't really fit into the final version.

Skywalker was putting up a decent fight against Count Dooku in that movie.

A decent fight? Anakin put Count Dooku on his ass in that movie.

Originally posted by Nephthys




This is a deleted scene?

fTgL4-gQRVs

Yeah its not in the movie.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
A decent fight? Anakin put Count Dooku on his ass in that movie.

Yeah so he was obviously well above Ventress when going all out.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah so he was obviously well above Ventress when going all out.

That shouldn't even need saying my friend.

Except for the obvious, Kenobi's a near-equal saber duelist who knows his style well.

Before the final fight, their performances against Dooku or most other foes were not that different.


Common sense answer is, 'they just weren't that far apart, and Kenobi was able to use his knowledge of Anakin and focus on defense to level things enough.'

Kenobi doesn't need to be his equal in power, just good enough to use his skill and knowledge to make up the difference. Just like how he overwhelmed Grevious- raw power is shown to be not the best tool against Kenobi.

Originally posted by Q99


Before the final fight, their performances against Dooku or most other foes were not that different.




Where are you getting this from?

Skywalker almost always performs better against the same foes- Dooku, Ventress, Durge. Even The Son.


But going by consistent showings: Skywalker's on par with Count Dooku. Kenobi's on par with Darth Maul.

Skywalker/Dooku > Kenobi/Maul.

There's a difference, but not a *big* one is my point.

One way to put it is they're one tier apart, but Kenobi is paper to Anakin's rock, which evens them out.