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Ok just talk, if you don't like it don't bother.

And Ben is not allowed to kill himself.

Sure he is, but if the situation called for Ben to whup ass, he would. You have to figure, he has only gained in power since ROTS (At least, Force power. And his form III mastery is complete) whereas Vader just got weaker.

Actually, I find him much weaker in ANH. I don't know who would win really, Ben sacrafised himself in the battle with Darth on the death star. But if he could beat him, why wouldent he?

Good question, actually. Very good question. And to that I give you a few theories...

- Ben had never intended to kill Vader. It should be noted that ANH Obi-Wan is much calmer, and more collected than his younger self. He does not run around sabering everything. He sneaks through the whole Death Star (filled with millions of Imerial personnel) without killing a soul. Ben's ultimate victory is a moral one, not a physical one. Plus, he believed as Yoda did that the son and daughter of Skywalker would prove to be his salvation.

- Gl wouldn't have a blockbuster series if the main badass died in the first flick.

janus, can i give dantheman ur sn?

I think this battle is a draw.

vader did say, 'You have grown weak old man'

what was the point of obi wan taking one for the team anyways? to become a "force ghost"? ive always had trouble fathoming that one

Originally posted by Darth243
what was the point of obi wan taking one for the team anyways? to become a "force ghost"? ive always had trouble fathoming that one

To allow Luke to drop the "I am your father" line.

I don't see old Obi-Wan reforming the Jedi Order, do you? Perhaps he was gifted with the foresight of knowing that Luke was more likely to continue the legacy than an old man like himself.

But the fact remains that he raised his saber and let Vader kill him.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Good question, actually. Very good question. And to that I give you a few theories...

- Ben had never intended to kill Vader. It should be noted that ANH Obi-Wan is much calmer, and more collected than his younger self. He does not run around sabering everything.

Actually, I have much respect for the character of young Obi-Wan Kenobi, because of the fact that he seems already as mature as I thought he ever grew to be. It seemed like that was implied, for example, when Obi-Wan says to Anakin in Clone Wars "there are alternatives to fighting" and then, as an old man in ANH, he says to Han Solo the same exact quote. His character seemed to me always to have had a consistently controlled and calm disposition - like a true Jedi. This was the impression that I got, though. Perhaps it is flawed - I just wanted to get that perspective out there.

why wasnt obi wan glorified the way that anakin was? it seems like hes always been made out to be weak until the revenge of the sith, dont get me wrong im a die hard vader fan , but i think obi deserves more attention

you haven't been here for long I see. He is probably the overall fav. Jedi here.

yeah im new to the site and forums therein.

this is the first forum i've been a part of

Originally posted by Darth L. Dipsit
Actually, I have much respect for the character of young Obi-Wan Kenobi, because of the fact that he seems already as mature as I thought he ever grew to be. It seemed like that was implied, for example, when Obi-Wan says to Anakin in Clone Wars "there are alternatives to fighting" and then, as an old man in ANH, he says to Han Solo the same exact quote. His character seemed to me always to have had a consistently controlled and calm disposition - like a true Jedi. This was the impression that I got, though. Perhaps it is flawed - I just wanted to get that perspective out there.

I agree. Obi-wan and Yoda are the two true jedi in the series. In the OT in particular, they don't kill a soul. And they have no qualms about death... There ultimate treasure is metaphysical. I mean, it's not an easy mindset to get used to when you consider how materialistic and selfish human beings are in general, but a true Jedi has mastered his urges and desires and does not fear death. Even Yoda says as much.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
- Ben had never intended to kill Vader. It should be noted that ANH Obi-Wan is much calmer, and more collected than his younger self. He does not run around sabering everything. He sneaks through the whole Death Star (filled with millions of Imerial personnel) without killing a soul. Ben's ultimate victory is a moral one, not a physical one. Plus, he believed as Yoda did that the son and daughter of Skywalker would prove to be his salvation.


Well...
I think that Ben didn't saber all those troops down because it was not necessary to do so. Everytime you see him cut something down in the movies it's just necessary and in most situations he is killing droids. The only exceptions are: Maul, that insect-like monster on Geonosis, Grievous (who is partly a normal being) and the clone troopers in front of the Jedi tempel. Plus cutting two limbs off (headhuntress in AotC, that guy in the bar in ANH).

The Jedi have a very strong respect for every single living being and they won't kill somebody if it's not necessary. Ben could have killed quite many people in ANH (Tusken, sandtroopers, stormtroopers).

That's my theory why he didn't kill all that people. Another theory would be that they didn't have the technology in 1977 to make Obi-Wan run and jump around and waste serveral thousand stormtroopers with his lightsaber.

Back to the topic: Ben would kill Vader. He defeated Vader when he had all his limbs together and more raw power. Since Jedi naturaly don't get weaker in lightsaber duels when they get older (watch Dooku who is older than Obi-Wan in the OT) he would be even worse than in ROTS. Vader is dead.

He indeed defeated Vader when Vader had more raw power but nothing ever said he had more power. Obi Wan had over 20 years of doing nothing while Vader still did a few things, not all that much but he still did things including killing Jedi.

How much could Obi Wan have done in those 20 years, not even close to as much as Vader. He didn't recieve the extra training either and had to teach himself. I'm sure he learned a few things and he became slightly better then he was in ROTS. But I don't think he could have improved as much as Vader.

Now if he mastered his style he might have a chance but I don't think he has so my guess is actually that Vader will win.

He'd mastered his style by ROTS.

Did he? Never heard of that before, I heard he became very good at it but mastered? Even so, he still had 20 years of not using it very much and to keep a style like that up... You will probably need some experience.

Nope. As of ROTS, Obi-Wan is a Soresu Master, and one of the best. And by ANH, his Force Mastery is probably near or on par with Mace Windu's. I mean, all he had to do for nineteen years was make sure Luke didn't run in front of a bantha. That leaves plenty of time for practice.

Well...I don't think that 20 years without fighting would do anything to your lightsaber skill.

We've seen some people in the movies who were damn good at lightsaber combat without having that much fighting experience. Sidious didn't probably have a fight from TPM to ROTS times dispite that he could still kill 3 Jedi Masters. Dooku didn't have much practice between TPM and AOTC either and he still could play with Anakin and Obi-Wan and survive Yoda.

Now Vader (from Mustafar on):

a) he lost 60 % of his raw power according to Lucas
b) he lost both legs on Mustafar (so he won't be too fast)

And now imagine Ben as something like Dooku or at least ROTS Obi-Wan with 20 years more experience with the force. He would kill Vader.

Exactly.

Ben would win.

Ben would win but it would be a boring fight they fight slow and unskilled so i think that ben would win but it would just be boring to watch

Imagine Kenobi at Dooku's age. . . a total badass. . .